F15 Court Martial (Merged thread)
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Thanks Mickeydrip
I completely agree with Terminal Man's comments about Mickeydrip's commendable efforts in keeping the world abreast of developments in this long running saga.
He whose nickname is synonymous with "Scouse Git" has done valuable service to air traffic control generally and to "Spot" in particular.
Following on from the CM, there are difficult times ahead for RAF ATC. I'm not sure that the calls for blood are really all that helpful. The tenor of posts indicates to me (a neutral observer on the other side of the world) that morale in the RAF's Air Traffic Control Branch is alarmingly low. Moreover, operative air traffic controllers are expressing a serious lack of confidence in that Service's senior management. With war looming in the Middle East, I'd like to think that the RAF will move quickly to improve its ATC workplace relations; and possibly even assist those whose lives have been damaged by recent events. I suggest that such actions extend to not quibbling with the costs bill and not insisting on taxation.
To the families of both pilots, may I express my heartfelt sympathies in your loss.
To "Spot", we've never met and not likely to. Nevertheless, congratulations on your acquital, and sincere best wishes for your future, in or out of uniform, in or out of ATC. There is life beyond the Service. Possibly the RAF might assist in paying re-training/educational expenses if you decide to try something else.
Bonne chance
He whose nickname is synonymous with "Scouse Git" has done valuable service to air traffic control generally and to "Spot" in particular.
Following on from the CM, there are difficult times ahead for RAF ATC. I'm not sure that the calls for blood are really all that helpful. The tenor of posts indicates to me (a neutral observer on the other side of the world) that morale in the RAF's Air Traffic Control Branch is alarmingly low. Moreover, operative air traffic controllers are expressing a serious lack of confidence in that Service's senior management. With war looming in the Middle East, I'd like to think that the RAF will move quickly to improve its ATC workplace relations; and possibly even assist those whose lives have been damaged by recent events. I suggest that such actions extend to not quibbling with the costs bill and not insisting on taxation.
To the families of both pilots, may I express my heartfelt sympathies in your loss.
To "Spot", we've never met and not likely to. Nevertheless, congratulations on your acquital, and sincere best wishes for your future, in or out of uniform, in or out of ATC. There is life beyond the Service. Possibly the RAF might assist in paying re-training/educational expenses if you decide to try something else.
Bonne chance
Last edited by Argus; 26th Feb 2003 at 08:59.
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Spot
Very many congratulations. How this farce ever came to CM is beyond my comprehension, although it is typical of the Royal Air Farce to ignore the crucial evidence of 3 civilian eye-witnesses.
I cannot begin to imagine what the last 2 years have been like for both you and Sue, but hope that now you can get your life back and screw those b@!%$£" for everything. Loyalty is a two-way machine, something the Farce tends to forget all to frequently.
Once again many Congratulations
Roger Dodge (another ex-mil ATCO who is pleased to have left)
Very many congratulations. How this farce ever came to CM is beyond my comprehension, although it is typical of the Royal Air Farce to ignore the crucial evidence of 3 civilian eye-witnesses.
I cannot begin to imagine what the last 2 years have been like for both you and Sue, but hope that now you can get your life back and screw those b@!%$£" for everything. Loyalty is a two-way machine, something the Farce tends to forget all to frequently.
Once again many Congratulations
Roger Dodge (another ex-mil ATCO who is pleased to have left)
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Wonderful news!
Can't think of too much to say, just relief that the CM is finally over.
Love to the Williams', the Hortons and thank you to all who helped. Our thoughts are also with the families of the pilots.
from those of us in Crowle, Worcs.
Can't think of too much to say, just relief that the CM is finally over.
Love to the Williams', the Hortons and thank you to all who helped. Our thoughts are also with the families of the pilots.
from those of us in Crowle, Worcs.
LET'S FIND OUT WHY!
Amongst all the posters on this forum, we must see a fair bit of very senior officers visiting stations, speaking to courses etc. Let's ask them some very pertinent questions and post the answers back on this forum (with thier names).
I can think of several, but these might do for starters.
Why was the case pursued?
Why was the BOI not completed?
Why did the prosecution ignoer evidence?
What happens next?
Answers are needed and they need to be published.
RubiC Cube
I can think of several, but these might do for starters.
Why was the case pursued?
Why was the BOI not completed?
Why did the prosecution ignoer evidence?
What happens next?
Answers are needed and they need to be published.
RubiC Cube
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Spot & Sue
Great news the only outcome possible. Great to here and see such support from around and outwith the branch. All the best to you and the family. Hope the hangovers not too bad this morning. Thanks to the team for all the up dates just proves that there are still some good guys around.
Great news the only outcome possible. Great to here and see such support from around and outwith the branch. All the best to you and the family. Hope the hangovers not too bad this morning. Thanks to the team for all the up dates just proves that there are still some good guys around.
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I hesitated to post, as I don't know anyone involved personally.
However, as an ex-ATCO (Boscombe Down) who gave RIS/RAS long before they ever coined the phrase, I read the "evidence" posted in the forum, and I could not believe this CM was happening.
I am glad for Spot and his family that this has ended with a just verdict. I am sufficiently cynical to think that a different verdict might have been reached, despite the lack of proof and overwhelming evidence against.
My best wishes to Spot and family, and to all the team who supported his defence. Spot, you must be very heartened at having such good friends around you.
I hope you can now look forward to building a future - my best wishes to you.
However, as an ex-ATCO (Boscombe Down) who gave RIS/RAS long before they ever coined the phrase, I read the "evidence" posted in the forum, and I could not believe this CM was happening.
I am glad for Spot and his family that this has ended with a just verdict. I am sufficiently cynical to think that a different verdict might have been reached, despite the lack of proof and overwhelming evidence against.
My best wishes to Spot and family, and to all the team who supported his defence. Spot, you must be very heartened at having such good friends around you.
I hope you can now look forward to building a future - my best wishes to you.
Ohcirrej
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To Spot and Sue,
Congratulations on such a tremendous outcome. It is such a shame that in this blame society we live in, the so-called "Powers that be" are all to eager to start portioning out blame. Even the media love doing it, with headlines like "An Air Traffic Controller has been cleared....." when there was nothing for him to be cleared of! As somebody mentioned, I hope there are some very SENIOR people hanging their heads in shame.
I'm sure I speak for all the guys at TC EGLL when I say best wishes for the future for both of you,
Jerricho
Congratulations on such a tremendous outcome. It is such a shame that in this blame society we live in, the so-called "Powers that be" are all to eager to start portioning out blame. Even the media love doing it, with headlines like "An Air Traffic Controller has been cleared....." when there was nothing for him to be cleared of! As somebody mentioned, I hope there are some very SENIOR people hanging their heads in shame.
I'm sure I speak for all the guys at TC EGLL when I say best wishes for the future for both of you,
Jerricho
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Spot, congratulations
I just couldn't understand why the RAF were court-martialling you for in the first place, it was a RIS for christs sake
You've every right to feel aggrieved at your treatment from the employer you've served diligently for so long.
But first - relax. It's over.
A civvy ATCO
I just couldn't understand why the RAF were court-martialling you for in the first place, it was a RIS for christs sake
You've every right to feel aggrieved at your treatment from the employer you've served diligently for so long.
But first - relax. It's over.
A civvy ATCO
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Yippeee!:ok:
Millions of congratulations to you Spot and Sue!!! The truth prevailed finally.
My hubby (RAF AEOp) and I have been following this since he found out about it on a FS course 18 months ago. You have been in our thoughts for a long time and we are really glad you can finally get on with your lives as you so rightly deserve.
You are very lucky to have such good friends - you should have seen Tommy's face when he walked up into the tower to give us all the good news!!!
We wish you all the very best for the future! Take care, good luck and hope the hangovers aren't too bad!!!
Slangivar!!!
Squidge and Hubs
My hubby (RAF AEOp) and I have been following this since he found out about it on a FS course 18 months ago. You have been in our thoughts for a long time and we are really glad you can finally get on with your lives as you so rightly deserve.
You are very lucky to have such good friends - you should have seen Tommy's face when he walked up into the tower to give us all the good news!!!
We wish you all the very best for the future! Take care, good luck and hope the hangovers aren't too bad!!!
Slangivar!!!
Squidge and Hubs
Congratulations to Spot and thanks to the defence team for keeping us posted throughout.
One thing that didn't get reported here (quite understandably in the circumstances) was the transcript of the communications presented on day 6. I'd be very interested to read that as I'm sure there's a great deal we can all learn from this tragic incident. Any plans to post it?
One thing that didn't get reported here (quite understandably in the circumstances) was the transcript of the communications presented on day 6. I'd be very interested to read that as I'm sure there's a great deal we can all learn from this tragic incident. Any plans to post it?
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Good on ya!!
Spot and Sue
As with many many people on this thread, I've never met you but felt I had to pass on my congrats. Will the RAF ever learn it only operates because of the people in it!!! If the establishment doesn't start putting you first and standing up for the professional people it has, how much longer will it be able to function at all!!
Just joining your world and I will always remember 'Watch MY 6'
Take Care and enjoy your victory.
As with many many people on this thread, I've never met you but felt I had to pass on my congrats. Will the RAF ever learn it only operates because of the people in it!!! If the establishment doesn't start putting you first and standing up for the professional people it has, how much longer will it be able to function at all!!
Just joining your world and I will always remember 'Watch MY 6'
Take Care and enjoy your victory.
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Nothing further to add, Spot - this was the only correct verdict. Nice one Team! The fact that there was an element of doubt about the possible verdict speaks volumes about the PC fantasy world that my old - and much loved Service - now thrashes around in.
The nightmare is over; however, I suggest that they re-occur at regular intervals so that a claim about Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, victimisation, defamation, and anything else your legal team can dream up, obtains suitable recompense. If the going rate for pregnancy is £500k, you should be a millionaire in due course; and I for one will not be-grudge you one penny!
Those in uniform that persued this vendetta should, indeed, hang their heads in abject shame. To you: Do you remember your IOT training? Do you recall the words ACCOUNTABILTY, HONESTY, INTEGRITY, RESPONSIBILITY, in short - OFFICER QUALITIES. I presume that letters of resignation are being drafted as we speak? No, I thought not............Gibson, Bader, Cheshire et al must be spinning in their graves.
Finally, FJJP set a splendid post - why no reply?
The nightmare is over; however, I suggest that they re-occur at regular intervals so that a claim about Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, victimisation, defamation, and anything else your legal team can dream up, obtains suitable recompense. If the going rate for pregnancy is £500k, you should be a millionaire in due course; and I for one will not be-grudge you one penny!
Those in uniform that persued this vendetta should, indeed, hang their heads in abject shame. To you: Do you remember your IOT training? Do you recall the words ACCOUNTABILTY, HONESTY, INTEGRITY, RESPONSIBILITY, in short - OFFICER QUALITIES. I presume that letters of resignation are being drafted as we speak? No, I thought not............Gibson, Bader, Cheshire et al must be spinning in their graves.
Finally, FJJP set a splendid post - why no reply?
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Dear Spot and Sue,
I am so happy for you and your family!!! You are an exceptional person for handling all of this so well.
I can't really express how much meeting you and your supporters has impacted me. You will be an influence on me for a long time to come.
I wish you all of the very best for the future.
Congratulations to Mike, Alasdair, Chris and Craig - and of course the support team.
All the best,
Gretchen
I am so happy for you and your family!!! You are an exceptional person for handling all of this so well.
I can't really express how much meeting you and your supporters has impacted me. You will be an influence on me for a long time to come.
I wish you all of the very best for the future.
Congratulations to Mike, Alasdair, Chris and Craig - and of course the support team.
All the best,
Gretchen
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Many many heartfelt congrats SPOT to you and your superb team of supporters.
Thank You, SPOT and Sue for having the courage and determination to see this whole sorry episode through and not giving up in the face of such overwhelming pressure.
Our paths may have crossed years ago at ERAD, but I feel that you could have been any one of the hundreds of ATCOs in the trade that I have known and worked with over the years.
I have been in TG9 for over 28 years now, but I have noticed an insipid deterioration over the past 5 years of leadership, direction and support from above. THEY KNOW WHO THEY ARE, (we all thought things would improve when they moved from the big white house on the hill).
Instead of listening to the shop floor warnings and learning from their's and other's mistakes or blind alleys, all they do it put up their umbrellas at the first sign of trouble and put queries into their "too difficult" trays.
There needs to be some serious bridge building, reassurance and support for all aspects of RAF ATC, quickly, before morale declines any further and despondancy takes over for good.
Is it a consequence that we have been informed today that PVR waiting times are going to rise within the next 24 hours?
Please go ahead SPOT and write the book so that everyone can read the whole story.
I hope the service look after you and your long suffering family in the future and learns it's lesson this time.
Thank You, SPOT and Sue for having the courage and determination to see this whole sorry episode through and not giving up in the face of such overwhelming pressure.
Our paths may have crossed years ago at ERAD, but I feel that you could have been any one of the hundreds of ATCOs in the trade that I have known and worked with over the years.
I have been in TG9 for over 28 years now, but I have noticed an insipid deterioration over the past 5 years of leadership, direction and support from above. THEY KNOW WHO THEY ARE, (we all thought things would improve when they moved from the big white house on the hill).
Instead of listening to the shop floor warnings and learning from their's and other's mistakes or blind alleys, all they do it put up their umbrellas at the first sign of trouble and put queries into their "too difficult" trays.
There needs to be some serious bridge building, reassurance and support for all aspects of RAF ATC, quickly, before morale declines any further and despondancy takes over for good.
Is it a consequence that we have been informed today that PVR waiting times are going to rise within the next 24 hours?
Please go ahead SPOT and write the book so that everyone can read the whole story.
I hope the service look after you and your long suffering family in the future and learns it's lesson this time.
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I SIMPLY CAN'T ADD.............
..........anything in terms of congratulations to Spot and Sue. After all, I only left you both this morning. However, I would like to say that it should be noted that Spot's sister Barbara and her husband John have been absolutely wonderful in support of Spot (and Sue) and I think that people should know about it. They have been there throughout the court martial and have been absolute bricks.
I was sad that Al Turner and Mike Tasker were not there for the end (not sure that you could have handled the emotion of the moment - I was having severe difficultly) after all their support.
One thing that I think people ought to know is that this is the first time Dick Doleman has been involved in getting someone OUT of the ****! Bravo, well done - you have been absolutely wonderful. For anyone who knows Dick, you will understand that having him as a friend is, quite frankly, a good policy.
Spot and Sue - hopefully you will have stopped reading this and getting on with your life again. If Joanna and Jamie are reading this - you have had a tough time. I am glad for you both. Look after your Mum and Dad. They deserve it.
Brian
I was sad that Al Turner and Mike Tasker were not there for the end (not sure that you could have handled the emotion of the moment - I was having severe difficultly) after all their support.
One thing that I think people ought to know is that this is the first time Dick Doleman has been involved in getting someone OUT of the ****! Bravo, well done - you have been absolutely wonderful. For anyone who knows Dick, you will understand that having him as a friend is, quite frankly, a good policy.
Spot and Sue - hopefully you will have stopped reading this and getting on with your life again. If Joanna and Jamie are reading this - you have had a tough time. I am glad for you both. Look after your Mum and Dad. They deserve it.
Brian
Last edited by Brian Young; 26th Feb 2003 at 23:02.
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A bit of admin stuff...
Just a note to say that I've warmly thanked the Pprune staff for their support, without which this might have gone unnoticed by the wider world.
We've agreed that the thread does have a shelf-life and should remain in place for, say, another couple of weeks, to help those interested parties who've been on leave, to catch up with events.
Once again, many thanks for your support
Mike
We've agreed that the thread does have a shelf-life and should remain in place for, say, another couple of weeks, to help those interested parties who've been on leave, to catch up with events.
Once again, many thanks for your support
Mike
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MD / DD
Many thanks for the efforts involved in keeping the Updates thread running...
1 request please! When then the well deserved hangovers clear, could someone do an update of the actual procedures on Tuesday? Whilst the result is obviously the most important aspect, the insight you have given to the mechanics of the CM was also fascinating - as well as your comments on the atmosphere in the room.
Please feel free, especially now its over, to add some journalistic flavour about the emotions and facial expressions on those involved as the verdicts became clear - especially that Gp Capt prosecuter!
And finally, hope that the JA's comments see not only Spot's costs all paid, but presumably also the ATC Associations (GATCO?) funding..?
NoD
Many thanks for the efforts involved in keeping the Updates thread running...
1 request please! When then the well deserved hangovers clear, could someone do an update of the actual procedures on Tuesday? Whilst the result is obviously the most important aspect, the insight you have given to the mechanics of the CM was also fascinating - as well as your comments on the atmosphere in the room.
Please feel free, especially now its over, to add some journalistic flavour about the emotions and facial expressions on those involved as the verdicts became clear - especially that Gp Capt prosecuter!
And finally, hope that the JA's comments see not only Spot's costs all paid, but presumably also the ATC Associations (GATCO?) funding..?
NoD
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Congratulations to you spot, your family and the whole support team. This whole sorry affair has led me to question whether or not I continue in this branch. I am currently serving abroad, working to foreign rules and using a non English rule book,all without proper language training.
So where would I stand if I had an incident?? clearly, on my own judging by this.
As an overseas member of GATCO, would I be eligible for their financial help? (I hope so).
But the real point is that you have been completely exonerated, (not the oil company). seriously though you deserve a big chunk of pay back, and we all hope you get it.
All the very best mate (we have served together),you have the ATC worlds deepest respect for your resilience
NWWNB
So where would I stand if I had an incident?? clearly, on my own judging by this.
As an overseas member of GATCO, would I be eligible for their financial help? (I hope so).
But the real point is that you have been completely exonerated, (not the oil company). seriously though you deserve a big chunk of pay back, and we all hope you get it.
All the very best mate (we have served together),you have the ATC worlds deepest respect for your resilience
NWWNB
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MESSAGE FROM SPOT
Well almost.......
Just been speaking to Spot and he's been trying to register with Pprune since Wednesday but admits to being a Luddite (and a Scouser, don't know which is worse) and is struggling to get his message across.
He promises to post a few words of thanks this weekend, or earlier if he can get the computer switched on. I've offered to post on his behalf so, either way, you'll hear from the boy shortly.
Best wishes to all
Mike
Just been speaking to Spot and he's been trying to register with Pprune since Wednesday but admits to being a Luddite (and a Scouser, don't know which is worse) and is struggling to get his message across.
He promises to post a few words of thanks this weekend, or earlier if he can get the computer switched on. I've offered to post on his behalf so, either way, you'll hear from the boy shortly.
Best wishes to all
Mike