Spanish ATC

[p_perez]

How stupid!

For D O Guerrero:

(...) Spanish controller needs someone to climb to FL400, presumably to make his life easier. (...)

Probably what my colleague was trying to do is getting a better level for another pilot who otherwise would have to cruise at a very low level. This past weekend was one of the busiest of all year in Spanish airspace, and we have had a hard time trying to get reasonable FL´s for everyone. If you get someone to climb from FL360/FL380 to FL400, then you can clear a departure to that vacated level, instead of leaving him at FL300/FL320.

Is this too complicated, Guerrero? Am I going too fast? Let me know and I´ll try to get myself clear for you ...

Point made I think.

Some people shouldn´t be paid to think ...


Saludos!

[Chesty Morgan]

Probably what my colleague was trying to do is getting a better level for an Iberia pilot who otherwise would have to cruise at a very low level. This past weekend was one of the busiest of all year in Spanish airspace, and we have had a hard time trying to get reasonable FL´s for everyone. If you get someone to climb from FL360/FL380 to FL400, then you can clear a departure to that vacated level, instead of leaving him at FL300/FL320.

So now you're being proactive and trying to help us are you? You're not working to rule anymore?

My, my what a perfect 180.

[p_perez]

Mr/Mrs Chesty:

you are so absolutely wrong, that it is amazing how blind and biased you are not realizing it.

In the future, try redacting your own comments instead of modifying mine. If you are that limited, not!

Y a propósito, ¿qué tal un comentario "constructivo" por tu parte para variar? Espero que entiendas el concepto, suele ser bastante usado por personas razonables ...

Saludos!

[Chesty Morgan]

Perez, how can a question be wrong? Unless I'm not asking the questions tha you want to answer. In the interests of understanding do you want to answer them this time round?

[1985]

Just thought you should know that bits of paper with reminders from eurocontrol about only giving filed levels and no directs have started appearing in the LACC ops room. Watch this space.

That said i will check to see if someone is slot busting by requesting a higher level. Some make it easy to catch some don't. ie filed at FL230 and wanting FL370 is obvious, filed at FL330 and wanting FL370 less so. A quick call to flow in the middle of the room sorts it out in two mins tops.

But you can overload another sector down the route by both requesting higher and lower levels than filed. But you can't make an aircraft fly higher if its too heavy and noone seems to get their knickers in a twist over that.

At the end of the day if its a bit busier than normal then suck it up. We are paid to do a job, do it, bitch and moan after, take your break and then go home. The stress always goes after you unplug.

[TBSC]

cresslime, p_perez

Would you mind updating us about the details of the agreement with your government, pls? We got detailed descriptions about your sufferings earlier but lately you went quiet (other than posts related to the childish "who has more power" contest).

[LayLoLay]

Calypso,

As a commander I also have the legal dispensation to deviate from any rules if in my judgement that deviation is necessary.

And your judgement to deviate from the rules shall be reasonable or you WILL lose your license and may even be imprisoned depending on the problems you have caused.

I am my company and if I complain it is on behalf of my company and if I demand the service we pay for is on behalf of my company.

Depends how you complain about it, whining on a frequency about a direct or a level you cannot be given will get you told off and probably even reported. Coming on these forums to whine without any constructive critism or trying to understand the situation instead of trolling is not helping anybody.

As I asked on a previous post, if you feel unsafe in spanish skies if you feel the airspace is inefficient, what have you done about it apart from whining here?

It is not up to pilots to decide the efficiency or the quality of the controllers, it is up to the authorities that employ us and let us keep our licences. If you see me do something not acceptable the best you can do is to report me. It is up to the authorities to decide on the outcome, not you.

You might think your word means much, but on your own, I am sorry it does not. You want things changed you will have to move your bosses to complain. Seriously, how far you think your complaints on the frequency go? Get it on paper, then push your company to do the follow up.

A pilot whining is just a nuisance to the controller sitting at the position. Make your company send complaint letters or even not so happy representatives to the service provider, you might get something done.

Heck, how far can you change things within your own company about rules and here you are expecting to change things in another company you have no direct contact with?

The fact is I represent my company while in command of one of our aircraft so as far as anyone is concerned what I say is on behalf of my airline as I have been given the authority to represent them

And how far does that authority go? Did they give you the authority to take on a national service provider, syndicates and governments making decisions you cannot even seem to grasp in their totality as well? If so, then you are one valued fancy pilot my friend.

The authority given to the PIC by the ANO is not given to the driver of a car, equally the law does do not give controllers the powers given to the police so your analogy falls somewhat short of the facts.

Not so sure, as a bus/truck driver the rules are pretty strict, as a car driver I also am still responsible of the damage I can cause with my car, maybe similar to PPL? I can also deviate from the rules of the road as long as I can give a good reason. The only difference are the procedures and size of stuff. So, could you please explain me in what way is the authority given to a PIC differs to one given to a bus driver or a truck driver? You might be in control of a much more complicated and risky vehicle but as far as authority goes in bending the rules, not so sure.

And about controllers and the police, we do not have the authority the police does, but we do function as a traffic police within their role of directing traffic. Not their function for enforcing the law. I thought it would be clear enough within the context. If you tell me you have problem with controllers controlling the aircraft within controlled airspace without your approval and not have ego problems, well OK.....

You can play all sort of mind games if you wish that I am nothing but a worker bee but you are wrong

Nice one, you are not a worker bee, quite right about that. A worker bee cannot decide where her base is but sure decides which route to take and which flower to take her nectar from. Let´s see your choices when you fly the plane... Do you decide which airport will be your departure and main destination? Do you decide which airplane to fly? Your nectar would be the money making cargo or passengers; so, you do have the right to not accept a passenger onboard within good reason, but do you get to choose which passengers to sell the tickets to? Do you actually decide which route to fly or is it some other people who decide and put it on your FMS for you?

So do you actually have as much authority as a worker bee does within your company?

Don't think it is much different with us controllers. We still probably have more manouvering space than you pilots do, but the box is getting smaller and smaller and those that are feeling the change too quick are trying to fight the only way they know.

I am not trying to play mind games with you, just telling things as I see them. This is not the golden 70s airline industry, neither the controllers nor the pilots have the high standing they used to. More and more we are turning into simple tools, the only reason we are still behind our machines is because the machines are not good enough on their own and we cannot trust them with our lives yet, and believe you me, our bosses are trying very hard to get us off them machines. Sad thing is we are losing the mutual respect even faster.

[10W]

This thread is now like an aircraft in a holding pattern ... going round and round in circles and getting nowhere fast.

Lots of pontificating and posturing from all sides, but no substance anymore.

Pilots, if you think it's unsafe, then file the reports. In some cases though, don't be surprised if your blame of unsafe ATC actually turns out to be a flight deck problem somewhere along the line The authorities have access to ALL the data during the investigation.

Spanish ATC, if you can provide a better service, within the legal limits set to you, then make the extra effort. It is not difficult to do a little bit extra and make the customers a bit happier.


Roll on the September Eurocontrol compliance days .... I suspect the whining will not just be from the jets on the aircraft Maybe it will provide a catalyst for Eurocontrol to get smarter though, and improve the flexibility of the overall system.

[LayLoLay]

Pullup,

I for one don't see any of us as gods, neither the pilots nor the controllers, please read my posts carefully. In order to efficiently control my airspace I cannot let any pilot boss me around for directs or levels that are simply not available. I know the authority given to me to control the airspace, I also respect the right and duty of any pilot to question my clearences when they deem them unsafe. I have more authority in deciding what to do in my airspace than any single pilot does as long as I am keeping a safe environment(weather, special occurences and terrain permitting, then the authority belongs to you pilots). Efficiency is second to that. Efficiency will depend on how on top of my game I am feeling at that moment, safe first, efficient second.

So, if you think I sound like one that considers himself a lord simply because I have the authority and the duty to decide who to turn, descend/climb, send direct or not and whenever I feel is available and safe, I am sorry, but that is my job description. If I screw up in my job you have all the right to act accordingly, but until then you have to follow my game. Right or wrong?

On the other hand, I agree there are many controllers try to boss pilots on the frequency and try to blame the pilots for their shortcomings. I sure hope not to be one as I always try to make available the pilots request asap and try keep them in the picture as far as possible. Only had one complaint so far about a level given, at the end of which both the authorities and the airliner company decided I was right(another proof that what you think you see is not a quarter of the real situation), so I couldn't be doing so bad or the way people complain does not work.

Side note AGAIN, I control in N.Europe not spain. If the controller quality is unsafe in spain then heck do something about it, not just whine. I've already said that over and over. The complaints about the efficiency and the way they are put forward is what I am against.

[Avman]

Maybe it will provide a catalyst for Eurocontrol to get smarter

Fell off my chair laughing. Not a hope. Eurocontrol is getting worse every day. Too many people at the top who know absolutely nothing about how ATC really works and don't know the meaning of flexibility unless it suits them and them only. You think Spanish airspace is bad; just wait and see.

[dogsbreath]

Sick Of Spanish Atc

I am sick of being sent 25 miles downwind at Malaga to make room for 2 spanish Turboprops to land before me on 32. I am sick of going round when Spanish aircraft are lined up when I am at half a mile on finals. I am sick of being held at holding points whilst Spanish aircraft are sent for departure before me. Lastly I am so sick of losing slots as Spanish aircraft are given take off before me. I have filed an MOR to hi-light the situation to out CAA. Hopefully they will get a grip at a Euro level. Spanish ATC are dreadful, almost as bad as the Greeks used to be.

[Cernicalo]

Sick of silly comentaries

Hello Dogsbreath,

1. Maybe you are talking about runway 31 in Malaga, not the 32.

2. I spend a lot of time in Malaga, believe me, and usually you will be number two or three making a "long downwind" because is MUCH more easy and logical to adjust you the the Melilla turboprop that comes direct to final. You have to turn 180º to intercept the LLZ. The Melilla Turboprop (70% of the turboprop traffics down here in AGP) also makes much better speed than you on long-medium-short final. Everybody wants to be number one, but this is not possible, somebody has to me #2, #3, #4, #5, #6, #7, #8, #9 and sometimes, number 10. This is the decision of the controller, not yours.

3. 25 miles downwind?. Then you should be quite near from Ubedo, the IAF for RWY 31. Do you usually complain to make the routes that you filled and start the procedures were you should?. Ok. two traffics on final, one 7 miles out the other one, 14NM out, so you have to be 7NM behind, this is, 21... So we got the figures! 7 NM betwen traffics is what we need, becuase 7 miles usually comes to 5NM, and this is the minimun safe departure distance you need when you depart from the one runway'd AGP, isn't it?

4. Believe me, not a single controller will line up anybody with a traffic half a mile on final. 5 miles, maybe, ¿but 0,5?

I am so sick of reading the same nonsenses over and over... Spanish atc gives priority to spanish companies, we don't speak proper English, we are bad controllers, we earn looooooooots of money, we work maybe 2 hours a day. I think Fomento Minister Mr. Pepiño is here present as a Multinick member. The same that makes some AGP controllers to earn last month 900€ . Consider it part of the mobbing procedure. Oh, yes, you will say we deserve this... or less.


Hello Cmon-pullup,

Due to your comentaries:

"Your (ATC's) excuses that you can't give any directs or level changes "due workload" serves only one purpose: It gives a hell of a lot more pollution to our planet and it just pisses people off. And don't tell me you are overloaded when there are 2 aircrafts in your sector."

Come on, fall down the tree. Still thinking giving no directs makes "a lot more pollution to out planet"?. The greener plane is the plane that doesn't fly, not the one that makes 2000 NM instead of 2015NM. For my planet, and for my children, and for yours maybe, would be much better to have reasonable prices for flying, should be forbidden fly for 1€. And spend weekends in your hometown, and fly once a year on hollidays, and not working in UK and days off and weekends on a Spanish Costa... Come on!


About the directs, ok, you fly from Malaga at 06:00Z to Amsterdam. You depart alone, the controller take you out before EOBT, or maybe CTOT -7, The approach controller gives you a direct because you are the number one and only in the whole airspace, but... 1.5 hours later, near your destination airport, a controller have 20% more traffic than he should... one is you, because the spanish air traffic controller didn't the right job, although both were thinking was good for you... Then you have a near miss in that sector, a RA, and the AGP controller has a beautiful report blaming him for not complying with the slots and for giving directs that "may overload following sectors", and because nowadays are hard times, he could be fired or worst, could be finned with the "Spanish Air Safety Law" that could be up to 250000€ . This is maybe what you heard. Not to overload following sectors, not that "my sector is overload with just one traffic".

I was hoping more support from you guys, fellow pilots, in theese incredible hard days for us. But always count I will give the best service I can when you come to Costa del Sol as my "dear lovely and valuable customers".

Cernicalo.

[Mikehotel152]

Cernicalo, Perez etc.

Do you honestly think that Spanish ATC is good? I mean, seriously?

With so many people making comments and a whole thread dedicated to criticism of the woeful service it provides, surely there must be some truth in the allegations, explicit and implied, on this website?

I have yet to meet a pilot who doesn't hold a poor view of Spanish ATC. I have no bone to pick. I'm not anti-Spanish. But I fly across Europe and find the service from Spanish ATC the most unsettling, scary and unprofessional.

[Airbrake]

I flew a late night AGP a few nights ago. Departed from AGP well after midnight with no departures for at at least 10 mins prior to us. We still flew 20 miles out to follow the arc on the way to Belen.

Quiet as a church yard and the controller had the nerve to say no directs available due to "Flight Safety." Gave us a good laugh at least.

We zig zagged our way through Spanish air space in the early hours then swapped to the French who said "Direct Dikro." Commonsense at last.

The AGP approach controller gets my nomination for the Muppet prize this week.

[TBSC]

About the directs, ok, you fly from Malaga at 06:00Z to Amsterdam. You depart alone, the controller take you out before EOBT, or maybe CTOT -7, The approach controller gives you a direct because you are the number one and only in the whole airspace, but... 1.5 hours later, near your destination airport, a controller have 20% more traffic than he should... one is you, because the spanish air traffic controller didn't the right job, although both were thinking was good for you... Then you have a near miss in that sector, a RA, and the AGP controller has a beautiful report blaming him for not complying with the slots and for giving directs that "may overload following sectors", and because nowadays are hard times, he could be fired or worst, could be finned with the "Spanish Air Safety Law" that could be up to 250000€ . This is maybe what you heard. Not to overload following sectors, not that "my sector is overload with just one traffic".

Bravo Sierra.

If that destination airport really happens to be AMS then all these things can only happen in your dreams... Worth having a cockpit ride to AMS and watch how your colleagues are doing their job at that end.

Btw: your boss does not care about dozens of ASRs filed about Spanish ATC itself, what he'd care about an "overloaded sector" 1000 kms away. The wording is just right: "could be fired", "could be fined" etc. Yeah, never happened and never will.

[Daermon ATC]

@ Dogsbreath: I think Cernicalo just gave a masterpiece of an answer. In any case, I would like to put it in more general terms. Assuming you arrive at an airport at rush hour you know there will be other acft... if one or several of them are turboprops, how exactly do you want to deal with them?

If we disregard the "option" of holding them for two hours untill everything has died down we will have to squeeze that turboprop somewhere. Unfortunately the jet that is next is going to have a small detour, but I see no way to avoid it.

And as a small coincidence, those turboprops will be most likely local carriers... I don't expect Air China, Aeroflot or American Airlines to have a route to Spain with turboprops, do you?

@ Spanish ATC: There is a sobering fact here and that is the absence of any threads about "dreadful dutch/german controlling". Service provided in Spain is considered substandard by our customers... this may just be a perception rather than a fact, but it is indeed there. "Si el río suena, agua lleva."

@ most answering LayLoLay: LayLoLay has provided several very insightful posts, making detailed explanations from ATC perspective. My thanks for that. He/she has not explicitly taken a stand for or against spanish ATC, which is this thread's subject but rather has offered his opinion in a tempered an educated manner.

However, since he has not joined the campaign demonizing spanish ATC, he has been immediately accused of being a spaniard against his/her own claims.

Honestly... don't you think it is a disgraceful discrimination if anybody who provides anything but the strongest condemnation of spanish ATC is therefore suspect of being one himself?

[Cernicalo]

Hello All,

No, the ATC service in Spain is not bad. No, it is worst. No, wait, is the worst. No wait, It is the worst in Europe. No, I could say more and louder, even clearer, It is the WORST IN THE PLANET... even of the UNIVERSE. Calypso & Cia. Are you now satisfied?

For TBSC:

The law is the law. And it is there to be applied. So if it is written, you have to consider it. And remember, maybe this is one of the jobs with more responsability, in Spain, in UK or Nigeria. I have to consider it. Pilots (if you are a good pilot), will consider always one engine failure. But could be very easy to think... Ok, it's quite rare a one engine failure, so today, with my powerful A321, 42 degrees, come on, let's depart from AGP Maximum Take of weight, directly into the mountains, not very nice visibility, but... no problem at all!... Oh f*cks! a bird strike!

Here you have the Spanish law:

Ley de seguridad aérea - Disposiciones fundamentales - Legislación aérea - Normativa - Información general - Ministerio de Fomento

CAPÍTULO II
De las sanciones y otras medidas
Artículo 55. Sanciones.
1. Las infracciones establecidas en el capítulo I de
este título serán sancionadas del modo siguiente:
a) Las infracciones leves con apercibimiento o multa
de 60 hasta 45.000 euros.
b) Las infracciones graves con multa de 45.001 a
90.000 euros.
c) Las infracciones muy graves con multa de 90.001
a 225.000 euros.

Believe me, I have met a colleague with 90000€ penalty over the shoulders, I still doesn't know if has been totally overseen or not. It's quite relaxing to go to work and with 90000€ penalty over your head give vectors to shortcut and directs on the SIDs.


And Mr. O'Leary thinks the same than this forum... Come one, O'Leary, which one is your Nick?. At least this guys discafies just himself:


MADRID, 1 Sep. (EUROPA PRESS) -

El presidente de Ryanair, Michael O'Leary, ha criticado a los
controladores aéreos de Aeropuertos Españoles y Navegación Aérea
(AENA) por ser "poco eficientes" y "demasiado caros", ya que "se
sientan sobre sus gordos culos sin hacer nada cuando deberían estar
trabajando" mientras "reciben enormes e injustificadas sumas de dinero
por prestar un servicio que otros podrían proporcionar a la mitad de
precio".


O'Leary critica a los controladores aéreos y pide la libre competencia en la prestación del servicio. europapress.es

Somebody can translate it with google, at your discretion. I will not make the dirty job for this Air-Clown. I would suggest a training course "How to continue making friends all over the world".

This guy call me "Fat-Bottomed", in this thread somebody some post ago wrote that in AGP ATIS should be "stupid controllers on the job training monitored", and a "bunch of chimps" has been another beautiful words that Spanish ATC receive... Come on, you could be more creative.... Airbrake, Please consider me as well for the "Muppet prize" of this week.

Mikehotel152: I haven't said that Spanish ATC is good. I mean, seriously. It is this what you wanted to read?

Another thing: The English level of Spanish, never will be the same than other North-European countries. English speakers speaks perfect English, and Dutch, Germans, Scandinavian, Finlands, etc.. will be always better speakers than Spanish, Latin-American, French (*), Italian, etc... This is just because of language similitudes, sorry guys... it's amazing how a Romanians speaks Spanish in just 3 MONTHS, sometimes is so difficult to realize they are nor Spanish... Italian always will sound like italians (nice melody you have guys!), but you will understand if you are spanish perfectly. What about the difficulties of English, or German or Dutch?. Maybe all ATC all aver the world should be English. The Spanish, we are good as builders, bartenders or waiters. Forever and ever.

(*) As far as I know, The French controllers have English training with English native speakers all over their career. No, sorry, in Spain, we haven't. A French controller can confirm that please? And sorry for you, fellow French controllers, you will be the next... So you know what it is going on with us in Spain. "Single European Sky", they call it.

An remember: Spanish is ICAO... The same than English, Russian, French, Arabic and Chinese. Anyway, always I have one English speaker traffic, and I consider He needs to know what it is going one, becuase affects (sometimes minimum affects) I will speak to all in English. I have tried to speak with ALL in English, the result is not so good, some local pilots have problems with readbacks and with General Aviation the results could be catastrophic... I prefer speak twice Spanish/English and Everybody will be informed in both languages!

Regards,

Cernicalo.

[Dusthog]

I flew with an old and experienced Spanish captain the other day.
He said it used to feel good to cross the Pyrenees southbound, flying back to his own country - mi casa.
The Spanish ATC was better before. Now he says it´s the opposite. He´s glad to cross the Pyrenees going north, away from Spain.



For those Spanish controllers spending time on this forum, at least you have some level of interest in your job. Maybe there is hope.


Regards

[Greenpilots]

@Cernicalo: You mentioned a serious problem. Spanish pilots not being proficient in English! If you speak English only half of the time, you will certainly be less likely to reach an efficient level of using the language. And it is obvious that many Spanish pilots are not that good in English and that applies to big and small airlines.
It is time that everyone learns the language and uses it!

[PA-28-180]

"(*) As far as I know, The French controllers have English training with English native speakers all over their career. No, sorry, in Spain, we haven't."

Cernicalo (and others), please PM me regarding this.