Kids controlling at JFK

[kontrolor]

@those who support kid speaking over the frequency > consider this > would you allow your kid to operate 10 ton truck if you were truck driver, or would you allow your kid to "have a taste of your job" if you were a male/female prostitute?

non-authorised personnel is not allowed to "work" in safety critical workplaces. Comparing ATCO trainee with 7 year-old child is immature. I hate to say this, but if the ATCO in question was realy sacked, it was with reason. Once we allow the safety standards to sink, we **** in our bowl. sorry.

[Pugilistic Animus]

sooo sad this has become

[TonyWilliams]

Many parents have had their kids say something on the radio at least once in the ATC business. How many, I don't know, but more than this one.

In my FAA ATC days, I was working at a facility where a fellow employee let his daughter talk on the radio in a tower. I was the union (NATCA) representative, and met with the manager who proposed a 3 day suspension.

I got it down to 1 day. Seemed like a good outcome.

But, like pilots overflying airports, that has happened many times before. But when two very unlucky Northwest pilots did it last year, they were not only fired, but their professional pilot licenses were revoked (not just suspended).

[HotDog]

kontrolor;

would you allow your kid to operate 10 ton truck if you were truck driver, or would you allow your kid to "have a taste of your job" if you were a male/female prostitute?

With all due respect, I feel you could have chosen a more suitable example to shore up your views on this incident.

[ATCO1962]

kontrolor, please. What this controller did was akin to letting a youngster operate the on/off button of the radio in a truck cab (so what?) and since when did prostitution constitute a valid profession in most of the civilised world?

And I would fire any controller who fell asleep at an operational position, Tony. Completely different scenario.

Again, as a trainer, I have been left high and dry by trainees who have supposedly earned the right to broadcast and have had to use all my skills to dig myself out of unsavoury situations. This controller did not let matters fall into a state of chaos; he WAS in control, albeit doing a bit of "remote" controlling.

[Pugilistic Animus]

With all due respect,...

the pilots were informed by the controller of the situation AND it was obvious by the back transmissions made by Dad wrt to ATIS info,...I'm a good pilot, who like told, read the pilot controller glossary the AIM,...yes I exit the active unless instructed......no pilot would accept a clearance with out consideration,...cleared for TO to me is not just a read back.... it's a whole long detailed procedure,...and lights, camera action,....and I even read the AFD so that I'm advised of arpt procedures and don't make unnecessary RT,...operation rain check complete

PA

[jfkjohan]

Hi Guys,

Wrote more here DISQUS Profile | Johan Farid Khairuddin ; but in summary -

I understand and respect everyone's thoughts, comments & concern especially re: aviation safety in this #kidcontroller case.

Personally, I do believe that the FAA and all other air transport governing bodies around the world are doing an excellent job to regulate amongst the many other points of course -- aviation safety.

Hence I do believe this should be made an example of, so that a possible negative escalation of such an act (bringing a kid to work) which WOULD begin to jeopardize safety -- be now prevented from ever happening.

I'd like to think that some day from now, when say someone/somewhere/somehow would believe that "its safe to do something somewhat harmless", they would remember this "dad and the kid controller at JFK" story, and refrain from doing anything stupid which could involve threatening safety.

I believe there are many other loop hopes in the industry which have yet to be discovered or in the media's thoughts "exploited" which would have a more devastating effect. You (and I even) could possibly not even know it yet!

For air safety worldwide, primarily at JFK too, my prayers are for the dad to get his job back and to continue directing air traffic as he is undoubtedly one of the rare few who are skilled, competent & patient enough to deal with the 6th busiest airport in the United States.

God bless.

JFK

[Lon More]

it was not the best idea in the world. However it could have been dealt with quietly internally. It looks like these two people are being hung out to dry for a minor bad judgement call. This was not as serious as an Airprox, IMO, and, having seen nothing beyond brief press releases, I even wonder if the full story has been made known? I can recall something similar being done in the dim pre Elf and Safety days but pilots were advised on the previous freq. that it would happen. Who can state at the moment that this did not happen? If anybody had an objection then would have been the time to state it.
Where will the lines now be drawn? God forbid CC should ever make an R/T call again without receiving instructions to land at the nearest airfield, possibly with several f16s or similar in attendance.
Why only suspend the father and the Supervisor? Why not everybody in the TWR, as by not speaking up, they have condoned the action. Presumeably the child (singular, I believe, despite the leader here) had a permit to enter a Federal building. Who issued that? He/she has also made a bad call. Where does the buck stop? Obama? (I'm surprised nobody has blamed him yet)

A rap on their knuckles, a couple of days off to think about things and then back to normal. Time to bury this - as already stated it isn't the aviation story of the year.

[Ditchdigger]

Ditchdigger

Tell the Mrs. to ask those controllers that were around before your wife & see if anyone has a copy of the old MBI or bulletin that encouraged & allowed the controllers to exchange brief pleasantries with our customers, the flying public. I had a copy until August '09, when I downsized & purged unnecessary papers. It was never rescinded that I know of & had no expiration date. It's encouraged when time permit, but not mandatory. Used to love to show that to anyone following an "over-the-shoulder" or "tape talk review".

Thanks. I'll do that.

@those who support kid speaking over the frequency > consider this > would you allow your kid to operate 10 ton truck if you were truck driver,

As my screen name would lead you to believe, I really am a professional ditchdigger. I've let my children operate excavating machinery, under my direct supervision, with the engine barely above idle, and away from any hazards or obstructions. And yes, I let one of my daughters, at the age of 8, steer my dump truck around the yard, while sitting in my lap. Did I endanger anyone's life, or compromise my professionalism?

To those who think this was safety issue, or an example of lack of professionalism, I pose the following question--any given human endeavor contains elements of risk, and success or failure depends on how those risks are managed. Professionals, by virtue of their training, experience, and good judgement are given the responsibility of managing relatively great degrees of risk. Can anyone enumerate the risks involved here, and specify how the controller failed to manage those risks?

[2control]

Kid at JFK

It could seem harmless that a kid issues a take-off clearance or tells a pilot to switch to departure frequency BUT this has to do with licenses and training and even more with confidence in ATC from the pilot side.
It's true that there are trainees who are working the frequencies but they have been through intensive training in ATC academies before being allowed into position together with an instructor.
So, boring as it may be, this is far from OK. Anyone who lets an untrained person work the frequency is not the responsible person who should be in this type of profession.

[radarman]

Ditchdigger,

Your comparisons about what your kids did is not valid. I notice you did not let your son operate excavating machinery at full power on a busy building site, or let your daughter drive the dump truck on a public road in the rush hour.
Your comment about managing the risk is not valid either - the risk should not have been there in the first place.
To those who think this was just a harmless bit of fun, can I ask where in fact you would draw the line? Would it be OK for the controller to have had a family day in atc and let the boy's brother switch the airfield lighting panel, while the sister is in radar handing off traffic to tower, with maybe the wife inputting data into the flight planning computer. All under strict supervision of course!
Having said that, suspension or revocation of licence does seem a bit harsh in this case. A public reading of the riot act would probably be more appropriate, followed by formal written instructions in the US equivalent of MATS Pt 1 and CAP413.

[Ditchdigger]

Ditchdigger,

Your comparisons about what your kids did is not valid. I notice you did not let your son operate excavating machinery at full power on a busy building site, or let your daughter drive the dump truck on a public road in the rush hour.

True, but that's what makes the comparison valid. "Cleared for takeoff" and, "Contact departure" are about as basic and unequivocal as ATC transmissions get. How much potential for an uncorrectable mistake, with uncorrectable consequences, existed there?

Your comment about managing the risk is not valid either - the risk should not have been there in the first place.

I asked first for somebody to enumerate the risks. I'm listening, and of an open mind.

To those who think this was just a harmless bit of fun, can I ask where in fact you would draw the line? Would it be OK for the controller to have had a family day in atc and let the boy's brother switch the airfield lighting panel, while the sister is in radar handing off traffic to tower, with maybe the wife inputting data into the flight planning computer. All under strict supervision of course!

I would draw the line somwhere short of the situation you describe, because I doubt "strict supervision" could be maintained. I do draw the line somewhere beyond the handful of transmisions under discussion. I don't find them any more problematic than the limited, strictly supervised experiences I gave my own kids. Your opinion may differ.

Of course, now we're thoughtfully excercising judgement based on the merits of given sets of circumstances, not on what the media panders to the sensation hungry public. I'm afraid the way this is being handled leans more towards the latter than the former.

[Two-Tone-Blue]

Come on, people. It was an unprofessional move at an International airport by a controller who should have thought a bit more about it.

We can discuss forever about "What If" ... that's not the point. Forget the detail, forget the trivia, it's simply not a good move at an International Airport. It makes the entire ATC operation look slack, and sloppy, and ... unprofessional.

With luck, the controller will have a job in a week' time.

Let's put it to bed, eh?

[MarcK]

It could seem harmless that a kid issues a take-off clearance or tells a pilot to switch to departure frequency BUT this has to do with licenses and training

Sounds more like it has to do with job protection. If a kid can do it maybe you shouldn't be paid so much.

[Lon More]

My PC was left running with this page open. Curious neighbour, a professional, but not in aviation asks if she can read it. Some 15 minutes later a succinct summation. "It looks like no damage occurred except for some bruised egos who are afraid the mystery may be dispelled."

[le Pingouin]

Sounds more like it has to do with job protection. If a kid can do it maybe you shouldn't be paid so much.

I'll vote for this as the silliest post on the thread

[le Pingouin]

My PC was left running with this page open. Curious neighbour, a professional, but not in aviation asks if she can read it. Some 15 minutes later a succinct summation. "It looks like no damage occurred except for some bruised egos who are afraid the mystery may be dispelled."

Sounds like you neighbour is involved in a profession where rules & regulations are something to negotiated over & don't apply to those with deep pockets. Care to say what it is?

[Lon More]

Care to say what it is?

Management Consultant

[Ditchdigger]

Sounds like you neighbour is involved in a profession where rules & regulations are something to negotiated over...

So, the phrase "work to rule" should carry a positive connotation rather than a negative one?

[le Pingouin]

Management Consultant

Funny about that......

Tell me I'm wrong: She comes from the direction that unless something is specifically forbidden it's permitted, whereas a controller comes from the direction that unless it's specifically permitted it's forbidden.

Obviously taking things to extremes but that's the underlying philosophy.