Kids controlling at JFK
So, the phrase "work to rule" should carry a positive connotation rather than a negative one?
At the very least it should be a case of "understand the rules you're bending". I'm the first to admit that at times I bend certain rules because I understand why those specific rules were written - when the rule is an overreaction (overly broad). Other rules I will not bend because I understand why they were written too.
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Lack of judgement / Pure stupidity
I've read all the comments on here and watched the opinions develop with interest - it was also the topic of conversation in my pub one afternoon..... the verdict came out that the actions of this controller were at best a severe lack of judgement and at worst pure stupidity.
As an enthused amateur who is weghing up making the jump into air traffic, I'm lucky to have visited control towers both civi and mil, always on the express understanding that I am there to look and not touch.
My dad is a mil controller amd I've sat on console with my dad listening and having him explain everything to me. I consider myself lucky to have been and to continue to be allowed to see him at work.
Just something that hasnt been mentioned, kids do stupid things - dad wouldn't take me to a tower until I was 14 years old (my bros and sis the same) because we were responsible enough to behave and not wonder off.
If that kid had pressed the light panel and changed reds, it could have had serious consequences.
Had the kid wondered off, he would have left his dad distracted and worried whilst working what to all accounts is a busy tower.
The controller was stupid and deserves the book thrown at him. BUT, I do not think he deserves to lose his job - a lack of judgement, a good boll*&%ing and a lesson learnt the hard way should hopefully suffice.
My penny's worth!
Gavin
As an enthused amateur who is weghing up making the jump into air traffic, I'm lucky to have visited control towers both civi and mil, always on the express understanding that I am there to look and not touch.
My dad is a mil controller amd I've sat on console with my dad listening and having him explain everything to me. I consider myself lucky to have been and to continue to be allowed to see him at work.
Just something that hasnt been mentioned, kids do stupid things - dad wouldn't take me to a tower until I was 14 years old (my bros and sis the same) because we were responsible enough to behave and not wonder off.
If that kid had pressed the light panel and changed reds, it could have had serious consequences.
Had the kid wondered off, he would have left his dad distracted and worried whilst working what to all accounts is a busy tower.
The controller was stupid and deserves the book thrown at him. BUT, I do not think he deserves to lose his job - a lack of judgement, a good boll*&%ing and a lesson learnt the hard way should hopefully suffice.
My penny's worth!
Gavin
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Originally Posted by le Pingouin
At the very least it should be a case of "understand the rules you're bending". I'm the first to admit that at times I bend certain rules because I understand why those specific rules were written - when the rule is an overreaction (overly broad). Other rules I will not bend because I understand why they were written too.
Working completely by the book could be done by a computer [OK, I'm joking, but I think you know what I mean]. What used to drive me wild, as an OJT Instructor and SATCO in both Terminal and Area, was the people who didn't understand what it was all about. There's a world of difference between cutting 3 miles in front and squeezing 3 miles behind in VMC with all crews aware of what's happening.
A trainee Director I was examining for his Competency Certificate ... with his only aircraft 10 miles downwind, I switched his display to standby [I was monitoring on the adjacent display, before you ask]. He had NO IDEA what to do next. The fact that his aircraft was in a known position, about to turn GCA base leg for what was now going to be a "DF into PAR" completely eluded him. After being pressured out of his glazed state, his proposed solution was the home aircraft back to the overhead ... and then do a "DF into PAR".
An old buddy of mine was SATCO at a major RAF Flying Training station. After endless sh1t from the 'master race' he informed OC Flying that his sqn was going to work to rule. Exactly by the book, nobody cutting the odd corner or trying to make things easy/better for the students and instructors. By 1030, the flying rate was down by 50% and OC Flying was acknowledging that ATC went the extra mile.
Oh, shut up, MPN11 - you're dribbling again ...
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At the very least it should be a case of "understand the rules you're bending". I'm the first to admit that at times I bend certain rules because I understand why those specific rules were written - when the rule is an overreaction (overly broad). Other rules I will not bend because I understand why they were written too.
To approach from a different angle, the question of how this violated the rules...
Clearly, it is a violation for an unlicensed, uncertified individual to make an ATC radio transmission. It seems to me that the intent of that rule is to prevent an individual with dishonorable intentions from causing a catastrophe, and to prevent an individual with honorable intentions, but lacking the necessary abilities, from causing a catastrophe. I have to wonder whether an individual capably relaying a valid clearance from a qualified and attentive controller was considered much of a factor. Perhaps, perhaps not.
Clearly, it is a violation for an unlicensed, uncertified individual to make an ATC radio transmission. It seems to me that the intent of that rule is to prevent an individual with dishonorable intentions from causing a catastrophe, and to prevent an individual with honorable intentions, but lacking the necessary abilities, from causing a catastrophe. I have to wonder whether an individual capably relaying a valid clearance from a qualified and attentive controller was considered much of a factor. Perhaps, perhaps not.
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@ Ditchdigger ... I personally think the controller wasn't in "Controller Mode". He was giving the kids an insight into what he does for a living, which is basically a good thing. In the process, he 'forgot' what's involved in being a controller at a MAJOR International Airport.
We can hack this around forever ... it was a dumb thing to do.
We could pursue the legal and technical aspects until ... forever.
Lawyers could become VERY rich if some JetBlue passenger decides he has a possible case agains [whoever].
It's an ATC issue, and it was S T U P I D to do that at JFK.
It has nothing, repeat nothing, to do with experienced controllers who know "which, what and why" doing things which aren't 100% within local, or National, procedures.
We can hack this around forever ... it was a dumb thing to do.
We could pursue the legal and technical aspects until ... forever.
Lawyers could become VERY rich if some JetBlue passenger decides he has a possible case agains [whoever].
It's an ATC issue, and it was S T U P I D to do that at JFK.
It has nothing, repeat nothing, to do with experienced controllers who know "which, what and why" doing things which aren't 100% within local, or National, procedures.
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Just a question, how did the recording of the transmissions make it into the worlds media???
I personally think the controller wasn't in "Controller Mode". He was giving the kids an insight into what he does for a living, which is basically a good thing. In the process, he 'forgot' what's involved in being a controller at a MAJOR International Airport.
It's an ATC issue, and it was S T U P I D to do that at JFK.
It has nothing, repeat nothing, to do with experienced controllers who know "which, what and why" doing things which aren't 100% within local, or National, procedures.
It has nothing, repeat nothing, to do with experienced controllers who know "which, what and why" doing things which aren't 100% within local, or National, procedures.
On edit: And it seems as if many controllers are willing to punish him for the black eye the profession got too...
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Hi Guys,
Just thought i'd share Mark H's comments, found them on the FOX network where the news first broke. More than 600 people have commented on it so far. As I was the first one to actually say something there/then, having clicked to have all follow up emails sent to me directly -- I have actually read all the other comments posted after mine. This was one of the best, for me of course:
Mark H wrote:
"This is ridiculous. I am betting the farm that most of the negative responders here have never set one foot in a Control Tower, Approach Control, or ARTCC. Probably not a cockpit either. I spent 20 years as a Controller and now have 18,000 hours as a pilot. I can certainly affirm that safety was never compromised in this situation. Blown out of proportion by the media and amateur nay sayers. The Father has INSTANT over-ride capability over his son's transmission and capability to cut off his transmission in the blink of an eye. I am quite positive he was supervising his son with the closest of tolerances. Controllers are careful professionals and again never was safety compromised. He would never allow that, not would the supervisor. Again, just send a memo out that this is a no-no from now on, put them back to work, and get on with life."
Just thought i'd share. Anybody have any ideas on the fate of Mr. Duffy and/or his kids so far? I hear they are selling tshirts with his name on it, which comes with a cape now! Not soo sure how far this is true...
Regards,
Johan F. Khairuddin (JFK).
Johan Farid Khairuddin.com
Just thought i'd share Mark H's comments, found them on the FOX network where the news first broke. More than 600 people have commented on it so far. As I was the first one to actually say something there/then, having clicked to have all follow up emails sent to me directly -- I have actually read all the other comments posted after mine. This was one of the best, for me of course:
Mark H wrote:
"This is ridiculous. I am betting the farm that most of the negative responders here have never set one foot in a Control Tower, Approach Control, or ARTCC. Probably not a cockpit either. I spent 20 years as a Controller and now have 18,000 hours as a pilot. I can certainly affirm that safety was never compromised in this situation. Blown out of proportion by the media and amateur nay sayers. The Father has INSTANT over-ride capability over his son's transmission and capability to cut off his transmission in the blink of an eye. I am quite positive he was supervising his son with the closest of tolerances. Controllers are careful professionals and again never was safety compromised. He would never allow that, not would the supervisor. Again, just send a memo out that this is a no-no from now on, put them back to work, and get on with life."
Just thought i'd share. Anybody have any ideas on the fate of Mr. Duffy and/or his kids so far? I hear they are selling tshirts with his name on it, which comes with a cape now! Not soo sure how far this is true...
Regards,
Johan F. Khairuddin (JFK).
Johan Farid Khairuddin.com
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I am 100% siding with the guys on here saying this was the most idiotic thing I have ever heard an ATCO do.
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Mark H wrote: "This is ridiculous. I am betting the farm that most of the negative responders here have never set one foot in a Control Tower, Approach Control, or ARTCC. Probably not a cockpit either. I spent 20 years as a Controller and now have 18,000 hours as a pilot."
I love blow-hard stuff like this.
Dear Mr. Farm Better,
Ok, you said most, not "all", so I'll be one of the teeny, tiny few who spent a day of two controlling air traffic (FAA ARTCC "center", TRACON "approach", and TOWER "uh, tower"), and has spent a couple of minutes flying transport category aircraft around for real money. I obviously do not have your experience, since I'm well under 87 years old.
So, to make my point. I do not approve of letting kids talk to "live air traffic" at any ATC facility. Having said that, I have had my own kids talk on the radio in an ATC facility. It was stupid. I also have the distinct honor of representing a controller who had his daughter perform this same stunt, as I previously reported on this thread.
I can certainly affirm that safety was never compromised in this situation. Blown out of proportion by the media and amateur nay sayers. The Father has INSTANT over-ride capability over his son's transmission and capability to cut off his transmission in the blink of an eye.
As you might know, there are (at least) two headset "jacks" at each ATC control position. One has override capability over the other. What if the dad just happened to make (another) mistake by getting the jacks reversed, where the kid overrides dad? Oh, sure, that's never happened in the history of ATC you might say. And if so, I'd say you're full of BS.
Controllers are careful professionals
Who never screw up? No controller's actions have lead to DEATH and destruction? Pilots, mechanics, controllers, airframe manufacturers, etc, have all been successful in piling up a body count. Because they share something.... being human.
Again, just send a memo out that this is a no-no from now on, put them back to work, and get on with life."
I don't think he should be fired, although he may, because of the notoriety. A week "on the beach" seems about right. Naturally, the agency will go big, and it'll get negotiated / grieved / arbitrated down to something less.
Hugs and kisses,
Tony
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Dear God, is this still dribbling on?
It was not a good thing to do.
Nobody was going to die.
No ethnic minorities were disrespected.
No small animals were harmed.
it was not a good thing to do.
Non-controllers, take a walk in the fresh air and don't come back.
Controllers, do the same and have a really good think.
Pilots, "Clear to take off, surface wind 230 15 knots, when airborne contact departure on 111.15"
It was not a good thing to do.
Nobody was going to die.
No ethnic minorities were disrespected.
No small animals were harmed.
it was not a good thing to do.
Non-controllers, take a walk in the fresh air and don't come back.
Controllers, do the same and have a really good think.
Pilots, "Clear to take off, surface wind 230 15 knots, when airborne contact departure on 111.15"
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Pilots, "Clear to take off, surface wind 230 15 knots, when airborne contact departure on 111.15"
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10W - glad you spotted my deliberate error! 
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Obwan - jfkjohan was quoting Mark H.
Draw the pistol slowly and take careful aim. If you rush, you'll miss the target completely.
Draw the pistol slowly and take careful aim. If you rush, you'll miss the target completely.
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OMG - what did I start there?
OK - I plucked a frequency off my keyboard without thinking.
I shall now go and attach myself to a radar antenna and self-flaggelate with a bag of flight strip holders.
OK - I plucked a frequency off my keyboard without thinking.
I shall now go and attach myself to a radar antenna and self-flaggelate with a bag of flight strip holders.