Kids controlling at JFK

[dolphinops]

Murphys Law applies and in the ensuing BOI the tapes would be played.
Get out of that one Bloggs

[djwebby]

Agree with MPN11 too; surprised at the controllers playing down the importance of their jobs.

[Pheasant Plucker]

Married a Canadian - Quite agree.

After all, if it was good enough for the 'Silver Fox'.....

[Married a Canadian]

surprised at the controllers playing down the importance of their jobs.

Not playing down the importance...just keeping it in perspective.

Are we really saying that EVERY single transmission you make on a daily basis as an atco is a life or death transmission...and that all the time

are times when a split second wrong decision can make the difference

. Maybe I am not treating my shifts with enough reverence....along with a lot of my colleagues it seems (from both countries).

We don't have to hype our jobs any more than needed. No pilot or aviation professional would deny the role that we play in the role of flight safety.

I think it undermines the professionalism that we try to convey to the travelling public and does us all as professional ATCOs a disservice.

Lets be honest...the general public on the whole doesn't have a clue what we do. How many ping pong bat references do you get when you tell someone you are an atco. It isn't the general public you should be worried about except when they step on that plane and your professionalism takes over (infact whenever SLF asks a question here they get roasted for not knowing anything) Worry about what the pilots think as they are the ones you deal with one to one. As has been mentioned numerous times over this incident..none of them seemed to have a problem.
We seem to spend a lot of time on this forum slagging off the people on the other side of the mic...and a lot of them have the same training and responsibilties we do. Maybe it should be their opinion that matters in this case....they took the calls.

When you think that we aren't even allowed visitors in the Operations Room now unless you have an aviation background

So THAT is how much we care about the general public maybe getting to know our job a bit better. Ah I see.

this was the most idiotic thing I have ever heard an ATCO do

I dunno.....when we have airmisses, deals, airproxes or whatever you call them in your part of the world I am sure there have been some pretty "weird" calls on the part of us atcos in the past. We get all het up when something like that is released to the media or made public as they "don't understand".
I guess no air traffic controller we know has ever worked sick, hung over or fatigued. None of us has ever issued a bone headed clearance and then thought "why did I say that". None of us chat on the frequency or chat with colleagues along side us whilst plugged in. None of us eat or drink whilst in position. None of us have ever fallen asleep at the console or in the tower on a night shift with planes calling. No one has ever fallen down the stairs in the tower whilst on alone, No one has ever used bad language on the frequency or had arguments, no one has ever abused a pilot into a live mic not realising the mic is open, none of us have ever used the phone in position to call home or somewhere else,

We can talk about our professionalism till the cows come home..and it would all be valid...but we are not perfect...and we are not "skygods" or whatever the term you want to use. The more we hype ourselves...the less people will understand.

We had better close down the humour thread on this forum as it shows us atcos at our least professional.....jokes being told on the frequency when we are all seconds from disaster...imagine! How could you regain control when your sides are aching so much from laughter..or if some split second event intervened before you could get a punchline in. Dangerous and irresponsible stuff in my opinion

[Pheasant Plucker]

There is a big difference between perceived risk and actual risk.

The kid was just a mouth piece - when I was a trainee (and yes, maybe even now), making my own decisions, I was waaayyyy more dangerous!

[Tarq57]

Married a Canadian,

Nice post. Completely agree. I do sincerely hope the "trial by media" doesn't adversely affect this man and his family too much.

[semper fi]

'What is the similarity between air traffic controllers and pilots?
If a pilot screws up, the pilot dies; but If ATC screws up, .... the pilot dies.'
-Sign over Control Tower Door-

[Pugilistic Animus]

Can we please hear some FAA controllers on this issue or at least state if you control traffic in the US at least.... more professional

[garp]

^^^^Is director communication NATCA good enough?

Because we do not condone this behavior. At all. It does NOT reflect on the extremely high level of professionalism that NATCA members display on the job each and every day. It is unfair to have this incident tarnish what you and the rest of our members do for the safety of the system and the flying public. We will not allow our high level of public credibility on matters of aviation safety -- built up over many years with the hard work of thousands of NATCA members every day -- to be put at grave risk by trying to defend something that is indefensible.

Whether fair or unfair, the court of public opinion has spoken and this incident has been mostly criticized and ridiculed from all corners and has probably unnerved a lot of people who fly or follow aviation. And let's not even discuss the late-night comics. Did you see the Jay Leno Show last night? First FIVE jokes. Did you see Letterman too?

This is NOT the picture we want painted for the public about who we are and what we do. My goodness ... we are only 18 days away from the sixth annual Archie League Medal of Safety awards, honoring the best NATCA member flight assists of 2009. How easy do you think our job is now trying to get people to pay attention to that? We're certainly going to try, I can guarantee you. Because THAT is what this union is all about -- extreme professionalism and extreme skill and determination that ensures safe outcomes for pilots and passengers on so many occasions.

NATCA is a labor union and we will vigorously defend the rights of this controller. However, we are also an aviation safety organization and we have staked our reputation on Capitol Hill and in the public as putting safety above all and conducting ourselves with the utmost level of professionalism at all times.

-Doug

[Hold West]

^^^^Is director communication NATCA good enough?

No. Doug Church is not a controller, he's a union spokesmodel.

I, however, am, with 25 years of FAA and contract time under my belt. What this guy at JFK did was not very smart, but definitely not deserving of all the accusations flying around here.

I'd rather have a kid repeat exactly what I told him than a trainee cooking up weirdness in his fertile brain on his own. The kid is much safer.

And finally, all you UK people are way too impressed with yourselves. Lighten up, pull that stick out of your "bum" or whatever you call it, and admit you're human too.

[Pugilistic Animus]

Thankyou Hold West

listen folks like you know the crap aviation professionals take,...best ATC perspective yet

Sounded managerial 'cuz I know how good unions can be


not trying to start a war amongst professionals,...but the FAA IS


I was hesitant about posting my little Gulfstream incident,..yes I know the procedure and how to CMY and CYA too, [with NASA's help.]..let's not play this game ...in general

PA

[Ditchdigger]

Quote:

As I pointed out in the thread up in the R&N section, even if you're properly authorized, it's "illegal" to add "Good day",

Rubbish. CAP 413 (UK) is produced to provide guidance to UK RTF users. It states that
Quote:
...Users of RTF in the UK are expected to comply with the phraseology described in this manual...
There is nothing within the manual that states use of pleasantries etc is 'illegal'. It is not standard RT Phraseology, but that's a hell of a lot different from being 'illegal'.

No, not rubbish. I'm neither controller nor pilot, but Mrs. Ditchdigger, who has been with the FAA for 17 some years now tells me that it is so.

From the ATC Order 7110.65
( http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Order/ATC.pdf )

2-4-5. AUTHORIZED TRANSMISSIONS

Transmit only those messages necessary for air traffic
control or otherwise contributing to air safety.

REFERENCE

FAAOJO 7210.3, Para 3-2-2, Authorized Messages Not Directly

Associated with Air Traffic Services.

And the referenced 7210.3 ( http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Order/FAC.pdf )

3-2-1. Responsibility

The air traffic manager is responsible for taking action to detect, prevent, and report:

<snip>

e. Remarks of a personal nature on any means of communications (e.g., voice frequencies, SATCOM, CPDLC).

FAA management has been known to "write up" controllers for using phraseology as innocuous as "Good day", or "Have a nice day", when there's no other stick handy to beat them with.


On edit: BTW, while Mrs. Ditchdigger usually holds Doug Church in the highest regard, she is of the opinion that the NATCA statement was far to quick to condem the controller. "We have no comment until the investigation is complete" would have been the appropriate statement, in her opinion.

[G-CPTN]

When you think that we aren't even allowed visitors in the Operations Room now unless you have an aviation background
So THAT is how much we care about the general public maybe getting to know our job a bit better. Ah I see.

A few years back I observed a fastjet (at high speed and low level) crossing (at 90 degrees) over a small private aircraft - sufficiently close for me to suck-in breath and remark to myself 'Wow, that was close'. Visually (from the ground, at less than one kilometre horizontally and directly in line with the track of the fastjet (ie it had just flown over me), the separation looked to be 'just a few tens of metres'.
The light aircraft was on approach to the local airport (14 miles) and directly in-line with the runway, and the fastjet was operating on an acknowledged low-altitude-flying corridor that crosses the airport approach. There is a minimum altitude requirement on the airport approach to allow for the military low-flying 'crossing', but it appeared to me that the light aircraft was below this.

As I regularly observed both civilian and military aircraft at this location (and there had been a mid-air collision between a Tornado and a Harrier within a couple of miles - the Tornado landed at the airport minus part of its tail whilst the Harrier crew ejected and 'landed' safely - though the aircraft was lost of course), I considered that what I saw was 'unusual' and worthy of reporting.

I called the airport to express my concern about this 'near miss' and was connected to air-traffic control, only to be told that they would not accept my report as only the pilots of the aircraft involved or a controller could register an airprox.

Hardly encouraging . . .

[ATCO1962]

Some kind controller many years ago, when I was a mere space cadet, let me have a thoroughly supervised go on the frequency at a major unit during a quiet time and before I had a "right" to speak on the radio. Those few moments were sheer bliss and not only confirmed my belief that air traffic was my calling but showed me that a little human kindness can go a long way. I will never forget that first moment on the RT.

As has been stated already on this thread, a trainee on a bad day can concoct far worse scenarios than a little parrot like this boy was. I say "Viva" to the JFK controller and I hope your kindness doesn't result in any harsh penalties.

Lighten up a little, guys. This doesn't demean our profession and certainly doesn't endanger safety. I have no doubt that the controller concerned would have stepped in any time the situation even smelt a little funny.

[planetalkerman]

I thought it was funny...

[Roffa]

I'm just waiting for the first pilot to say to me "put your Dad back on, sonny".

[vector4fun]

We were laughing all afternoon yesterday at my facility. We have a couple females that sound about 12 1/2 yrs old at times. One said she would have to work on her "big girl voice" before she winds up on the news.


Glad all you Europeans have such wonderful simulator training before actually using the radio. Our U.S. trainees, are not nearly so well prepped, even though they've had sims too. They often "lock up" completely their first few transmissions. Look like a goldfish short on oxygen. I'd often feel more comfortable training my kids on freq than what the FAA sends.

I flew my Dad's C140 from the right seat at age 8, flew Delta's Link simulators at about the same age too. Drove a truck and tractor at age 12 around the ranch. Dad drove a 3 ton truck to the grain mill in town at age 14, because he had to. Kids today have no such experiences, hence can't operate a push mower properly or safely, though they are skilled at electronic games!

[Vector361]

Ditchdigger

Tell the Mrs. to ask those controllers that were around before your wife & see if anyone has a copy of the old MBI or bulletin that encouraged & allowed the controllers to exchange brief pleasantries with our customers, the flying public. I had a copy until August '09, when I downsized & purged unnecessary papers. It was never rescinded that I know of & had no expiration date. It's encouraged when time permit, but not mandatory. Used to love to show that to anyone following an "over-the-shoulder" or "tape talk review".

As to the incident - I'm a little surprised how busy it seemed on the audio I heard, but I expect the "dead" time might have been edited out. On the unprofessional /bad judgement side, definitely, but this isn't a rare instance. Unsafe - very low on the scale. Compare letting someone, even a child, parrot "...contact departure." to when OJTIs are forced to train someone that knows they will never certify/validate, have lost all confidence and are possibly angry just to max out the hours so you can say they had every opportunity, then give them extended hours. It doesn't get any worse than that, yet it's almost standard procedure with FAA. That training happens all the time in the large facilities. (Hats off to the OJTIs.) My sympathy to the guy if this is his first "screw up." He's already suspended, but there may be more. A warning or reprimand would be my choice.

To the white shirt / black tie & "stick up your ***" groups, get over yourselves. To those still working, do an extra good job for the next few weeks. You know they're listening.

30 yrs ATC / 27 yrs FAA

[MPN11]

Folks, I think most of it has been said, here and in R&N.

IMO ...

1. It was not a good idea to do what he did at a major International airport. At Fukknukkle Creek Regional it might have passed un-noticed.
2. At his stated age [47?] he should have been substantially more professional.
3. It was NOT the biggest Flight Safety issue of 2010.

And he should not be dismissed, but his balls should be stapled to the control desk for a week or four. It was tacky, unprofessional and sloppy, and completely unbefitting a controller at JFK.

[Roffa]

It was tacky, unprofessional and sloppy, and completely unbefitting a controller at JFK.

If this is the usual non-sloppy, professional, befitting JFK product bring back the kid(s)!