UK - NATS Pay negotiations - latest rumours
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I think I know which way to vote, but just before I do, can anyone give me the arguments for voting "yes" and "no" in case I missed something?
(there is a lot of argument for no in this thread, but I'm hoping the yes's can be summarised too).
(there is a lot of argument for no in this thread, but I'm hoping the yes's can be summarised too).
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There's no argument for or against it's all down to your own opinion.
Vote Yes if you think in the current climate it's a fair offer and you are happy with it.
Vote Yes if you think it's the best offer that can be got through negotiation alone and either aren't prepared to take industrial action, think that industrial action won't improve the offer or think that your job might be at risk if industrial action or a bigger payrise will result in NATS needing to save more money than it currently suggests.
Vote No if you think the offer is too poor to consider.
Vote No if you think there is better to be had by either the threat of industrial action or actual industrial action and, most importantly, you are prepared to take that action.
Don't vote if you really want to upset some of the people on this forum
, although personally I think it's perfectly valid not to vote if you really can't decide which way to vote
Vote Yes if you think in the current climate it's a fair offer and you are happy with it.
Vote Yes if you think it's the best offer that can be got through negotiation alone and either aren't prepared to take industrial action, think that industrial action won't improve the offer or think that your job might be at risk if industrial action or a bigger payrise will result in NATS needing to save more money than it currently suggests.
Vote No if you think the offer is too poor to consider.
Vote No if you think there is better to be had by either the threat of industrial action or actual industrial action and, most importantly, you are prepared to take that action.
Don't vote if you really want to upset some of the people on this forum
, although personally I think it's perfectly valid not to vote if you really can't decide which way to vote
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If you are not sure which way to vote..Vote yes and if overall Yes vote goes through and then if you are not happy with outcome of what is really on offer you can't feel hard done by ...Vote No and there maybe a chance..no matter how small.. of something better.
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The dilema I feel is that the actual amount of pay that this all equates to doesn't really make much difference as my salary isn't that big.
A payment of 1 - 1.5% (per year for two years) isn't much different to nothing at all.
My main reason to vote no wouldn't be to hope for more pay, but to show managment that I don't appreciate their recent changes to employees conditions in general and how they go about things. I know their real intention is for CP3 not just the current economic conditions.
The vote yes would be because it's not a pay cut and it looks good in comparison to elsewhere in the industry thus I wouldn't feel guilty about appearing to want a greater increase...
I am starting to come to a conclusion, even if it does feel like it'll be a shot in one of my feet. I suppose it's about taking a medium-term verse long-term view on things.
A payment of 1 - 1.5% (per year for two years) isn't much different to nothing at all.
My main reason to vote no wouldn't be to hope for more pay, but to show managment that I don't appreciate their recent changes to employees conditions in general and how they go about things. I know their real intention is for CP3 not just the current economic conditions.
The vote yes would be because it's not a pay cut and it looks good in comparison to elsewhere in the industry thus I wouldn't feel guilty about appearing to want a greater increase...
I am starting to come to a conclusion, even if it does feel like it'll be a shot in one of my feet. I suppose it's about taking a medium-term verse long-term view on things.
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11K-AVML
I'm with kats-I - if you don't really care either way, then I think a 'Yes' vote is the way ahead for anyone.
The advice from eglnyt saying
is very poor in my opinion. I don't understand how anyone can't have some slight opinion in this.
Not voting, either way, is not good for the union. Whatever anyone's thoughts are about the union, not voting plays into the hands of management because it makes them believe that the members are happy to just bumble along and let anything happen.
I know of one airport rep who has stated that his colleagues at his unit are mostly voting 'no' (how true that is is another matter as it is usually the 'no' voters who are more prepared to say anything - the 'yes' voters are less vociferous).
However this rep has also said that there are more important issues to worry about in the future and that he wishes people would vote yes this time.
I think he is alluding to the future of NSL, but whatever, it has nothing to do with the pay vote. We have been told by the union since PPP that we will keep our powder dry. There is always a 'more important' issue around the corner - the last one was pensions.
We caved in on that issue.
That's one of the main reasons I am voting 'No'.
I don't want to be tied into a two year deal based on supposition - especially given the track record of NATS when it comes to financial planning.
I am also very unhappy with the fact that NATS have, according to the open letter sent over a month ago, reneged on the pension agreement already.
Coupled with a company pleading poverty to its workforce whilst paying out huge dividends, I feel that it is time we drew a line in the sand. Pay is the issue at the moment, and voting no is the only way we can start getting the ball rolling with regards to making management realise we have had enough of the lies and underhand tactics.
It is the follow up to a no vote that would really start to show management that we actually have a backbone and care abut our SAFETY industry.
A yes vote, to my mind, indicates that we are happy with the way management are handling NATS and its employees.
To anyone out there who can't be bothered - send back your voting slip - even if you spoil the paper - at least a spoiled paper shows that although you couldn't make your mind up over this issue, you can actually be bothered to return the damned thing i.e. you are not totally apathetic to issues - unlike 30% of people in the pension vote.
Not returning a voting paper makes a mockery of being in the union - there are plenty of non union memebers in NATS who pay nothing and get the pay deals we vote for - if you're not going to vote, why waste good money on a membership subscription??
I'm with kats-I - if you don't really care either way, then I think a 'Yes' vote is the way ahead for anyone.
The advice from eglnyt saying
Don't vote if you really want to upset some of the people on this forum 
, although personally I think it's perfectly valid not to vote if you really can't decide which way to vote
, although personally I think it's perfectly valid not to vote if you really can't decide which way to vote
Not voting, either way, is not good for the union. Whatever anyone's thoughts are about the union, not voting plays into the hands of management because it makes them believe that the members are happy to just bumble along and let anything happen.
I know of one airport rep who has stated that his colleagues at his unit are mostly voting 'no' (how true that is is another matter as it is usually the 'no' voters who are more prepared to say anything - the 'yes' voters are less vociferous).
However this rep has also said that there are more important issues to worry about in the future and that he wishes people would vote yes this time.
I think he is alluding to the future of NSL, but whatever, it has nothing to do with the pay vote. We have been told by the union since PPP that we will keep our powder dry. There is always a 'more important' issue around the corner - the last one was pensions.
We caved in on that issue.
you state My main reason to vote no wouldn't be to hope for more pay, but to show managment that I don't appreciate their recent changes to employees conditions in general and how they go about things.
I don't want to be tied into a two year deal based on supposition - especially given the track record of NATS when it comes to financial planning.
I am also very unhappy with the fact that NATS have, according to the open letter sent over a month ago, reneged on the pension agreement already.
Coupled with a company pleading poverty to its workforce whilst paying out huge dividends, I feel that it is time we drew a line in the sand. Pay is the issue at the moment, and voting no is the only way we can start getting the ball rolling with regards to making management realise we have had enough of the lies and underhand tactics.
It is the follow up to a no vote that would really start to show management that we actually have a backbone and care abut our SAFETY industry.
A yes vote, to my mind, indicates that we are happy with the way management are handling NATS and its employees.
To anyone out there who can't be bothered - send back your voting slip - even if you spoil the paper - at least a spoiled paper shows that although you couldn't make your mind up over this issue, you can actually be bothered to return the damned thing i.e. you are not totally apathetic to issues - unlike 30% of people in the pension vote.
Not returning a voting paper makes a mockery of being in the union - there are plenty of non union memebers in NATS who pay nothing and get the pay deals we vote for - if you're not going to vote, why waste good money on a membership subscription??
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anotherthing
Thanks.
If this rep knows there is possibly worse to come then ideally we would need a NO vote to get management on their back foot..now..so why is he advocating we vote yes?
I would have thought a decent days pay for a lot of graft is quite important.
Each Issue has its own merits and we shouldn't be advised to vote yes "Just in case" the next issue arising is worse.
In fact we should not be being recommended to vote Yes or No on any issue..it should be our individual decision made on the facts presented and how we perceive them, without persuasion .
Phew!
Thanks.
If this rep knows there is possibly worse to come then ideally we would need a NO vote to get management on their back foot..now..so why is he advocating we vote yes?
I would have thought a decent days pay for a lot of graft is quite important.
Each Issue has its own merits and we shouldn't be advised to vote yes "Just in case" the next issue arising is worse.
In fact we should not be being recommended to vote Yes or No on any issue..it should be our individual decision made on the facts presented and how we perceive them, without persuasion .
Phew!
Last edited by kats-I; 17th Jun 2009 at 20:32.
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eglnyt
So basically 
just VOTE NO
otherwise when you see NATS financial results (enormous profits) in 10 days time, you will be kicking yourself for voting yes
and letting PB and his roughnecks shaft you again
There's no argument for or against it's all down to your own opinion.
Vote Yes if you think in the current climate it's a fair offer and you are happy with it.
Vote Yes if you think it's the best offer that can be got through negotiation alone and either aren't prepared to take industrial action, think that industrial action won't improve the offer or think that your job might be at risk if industrial action or a bigger payrise will result in NATS needing to save more money than it currently suggests.
Vote No if you think the offer is too poor to consider.
Vote No if you think there is better to be had by either the threat of industrial action or actual industrial action and, most importantly, you are prepared to take that action.
Don't vote if you really want to upset some of the people on this forum
, although personally I think it's perfectly valid not to vote if you really can't decide which way to vote
Vote Yes if you think in the current climate it's a fair offer and you are happy with it.
Vote Yes if you think it's the best offer that can be got through negotiation alone and either aren't prepared to take industrial action, think that industrial action won't improve the offer or think that your job might be at risk if industrial action or a bigger payrise will result in NATS needing to save more money than it currently suggests.
Vote No if you think the offer is too poor to consider.
Vote No if you think there is better to be had by either the threat of industrial action or actual industrial action and, most importantly, you are prepared to take that action.
Don't vote if you really want to upset some of the people on this forum
, although personally I think it's perfectly valid not to vote if you really can't decide which way to vote just VOTE NO otherwise when you see NATS financial results (enormous profits) in 10 days time, you will be kicking yourself for voting yes
and letting PB and his roughnecks shaft you again
Last edited by Vote NO; 17th Jun 2009 at 17:40.
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Standard Noise
I appreciate that fact..and thank God they aren't!! I just wonder why there are still some that are, knowing how the majority of staff.. across the board.. feel.
Oh well, it'll all be over soon and we'll know if we have been sold down the river AGAIN??? or not.
I appreciate that fact..and thank God they aren't!! I just wonder why there are still some that are, knowing how the majority of staff.. across the board.. feel.
Oh well, it'll all be over soon and we'll know if we have been sold down the river AGAIN??? or not.
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knowing how the majority of staff.. across the board.. feel.
) are quite switched on that I've had a debate with, I found myself in the minority in choosing to vote no and they all put good arguments forward. Goes to show you that what you read on these forums and rest room gossip aren't always a good indication of the view of the majority.RS
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The trouble with some folks is that they willing to spout off about things not being right but as soon as you ask them to stand up and be counted suddenly its a different matter and they are all too busy doing something else..looking in the other direction..NIMBY's.
But.. they are more than willing to take the benefits/rewards that others have stuck their heads over the parapet to get!!!
But.. they are more than willing to take the benefits/rewards that others have stuck their heads over the parapet to get!!!
StandupfortheUlstermen
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kats-1 - as a rep myself, I have told the members what the official Prospect line is, but when asked my opinion of how they should vote, I have diplomatically stated that I intended to vote No and left it at that. I personally don't support the union's line on this (nor did I with the pension vote).
If there are reps out there who are urging a Yes vote, I assume it's because that's what they believe in. I don't. But then it is a free vote and people will act as they did with the last cock up, I mean vote. They will either swallow the company/union story hook, line and sinker.......or they won't.
I think there's too many sheep in NATS and we're looking at a Yes overall, but I hope I'm wrong.
If there are reps out there who are urging a Yes vote, I assume it's because that's what they believe in. I don't. But then it is a free vote and people will act as they did with the last cock up, I mean vote. They will either swallow the company/union story hook, line and sinker.......or they won't.
I think there's too many sheep in NATS and we're looking at a Yes overall, but I hope I'm wrong.
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Baaa
I think the sheep shall sway the vote unfortunately- despite the fact that NATS has already reneged on the pension terms etc. How can anyone trust them?
Wake up and smell the Starbucks - or Costa.
Was in work yesterday and heard more mutterings about a breakaway union - anyone else heard anything?
I think the sheep shall sway the vote unfortunately- despite the fact that NATS has already reneged on the pension terms etc. How can anyone trust them?
Wake up and smell the Starbucks - or Costa.
Was in work yesterday and heard more mutterings about a breakaway union - anyone else heard anything?
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Was in work yesterday and heard more mutterings about a breakaway union - anyone else heard anything?
Can not think of anything the company would like more. A divided workforce.
Although, listening to people in the work place I suspect they have succeeded in that objective already.
I agree with kats-I, in that people are willing to jump up and down about what a travesty it all is but would they have the same passion they show on an online forum if it actually came to doing something about it.
Can not think of anything the company would like more. A divided workforce.
Although, listening to people in the work place I suspect they have succeeded in that objective already.
I agree with kats-I, in that people are willing to jump up and down about what a travesty it all is but would they have the same passion they show on an online forum if it actually came to doing something about it.
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Was in work yesterday and heard more mutterings about a breakaway union.
Ultimately it will have the same group of people as members. Those very same members who have the ability to vote their reps in or out of their present roles. If there is a real dis-satisfaction with the BEC or any rep then it is within their power to change it. But they have to be confident there is someone willing to take on that role as a replacement. And if there are more militant people amongst us then why aren't they putting themselves forward in the present structure and initiating change that way?
I suspect it's because it's a damn site easier to come on here and snipe endlessly rather than get off their backsides and actually put the time in.
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ViaEGLL.
Was that a result throughout or just one branch..Thats a bit early isn't it?
Democracy....Or something else??
Funny old thing ..cynical I might be..but yet again it looks like a postal vote becomes a Yes Vote!!!
Oh well, no doubt something else will be thrown at us before long.
Was that a result throughout or just one branch..Thats a bit early isn't it?
That's democracy at work, can't really complain (much)
Funny old thing ..cynical I might be..but yet again it looks like a postal vote becomes a Yes Vote!!!
Oh well, no doubt something else will be thrown at us before long.