UK - NATS Pay negotiations - latest rumours
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Questions and Answers
I've heard rumours that there are some Q's & A's relating to the pay offer on the union website - answering questions such as why there needed to be a 2yr deal.
Anyone know more?
Anyone know more?
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When will we receive the money in the event of a ‘yes vote’?
What details and why can't we be informed of them now?..when is appropriate?
The ATSAs working practices have already been changed..without consultation..and thats before pay ballot so whats stopping that from happening across the board.
It is hoped that the money would be in July or August pay however this is subject to a number of factors and we’ll update you with exact details when appropriate.
the offer is no ’strings attached’ in it’s style which offers a basic rise in pay without any changes to working practises or terms and conditions.
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Quote:the offer is no ’strings attached’ in it’s style which offers a basic rise in pay without any changes to working practises or terms and conditions.
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There is (apparently) a target number of ATSA grade staff to go in the next round of VR, I was told 220 with around 150 likely to volunteer. I expect that 'management' will then go for CR and all of this 'standing together' will be for nought and the ATCO's and engineers will not support their ATSA colleagues. That will leave the door propped open for engineering CR followed by any ATCO's that are not performong - and non ops. If we don't stand together on this we will all be shafted, one group at a time.
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MinesaPint.
Where/when did you hear about ATSA VRs, I know 2or 3 that will be very interested to know. 220 seems a very high number, I don't think CR for ATSAs or ATCOs would come for a long time if at all. Nats has a policy on that doesn't it?
But then I suppose some of their other policies have gone by the wayside.
PM me if you don't want to put out on here.
Where/when did you hear about ATSA VRs, I know 2or 3 that will be very interested to know. 220 seems a very high number, I don't think CR for ATSAs or ATCOs would come for a long time if at all. Nats has a policy on that doesn't it?
But then I suppose some of their other policies have gone by the wayside.
PM me if you don't want to put out on here.
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The policy is to offer VR first (assuming the cash is available in the affected Unit's budget to pay for it), followed by volunteers to relocate (assuming there's a vacancy to go to), followed by compulsory posting under the 'mobile grade' clause in your contract, followed by CR.
Big issue for ATSAs (and others) is the use of compulsory posting (CP) - if you cannot accept a posting for whatever reason, then you are deemed to have resigned. No payoff - straight out the door (with a pension where applicable)
The one saving grace (if you can call it that) is that once the 220 ATSAs have 'done an Elvis', the options for future CP diminish for the survivors, and if out of the 220 required, 150 volunteers come forward for VR, that also takes a bit of pressure off those trying to stay in employment.
However, the options are there for Mgmt manipulation, and I predict that there will still be casualties further along the way
oh, BTW, just as minesapint pointed out earlier "the ATCO's and engineers will not support their ATSA colleagues"
as if we didn't know...
Big issue for ATSAs (and others) is the use of compulsory posting (CP) - if you cannot accept a posting for whatever reason, then you are deemed to have resigned. No payoff - straight out the door (with a pension where applicable)
The one saving grace (if you can call it that) is that once the 220 ATSAs have 'done an Elvis', the options for future CP diminish for the survivors, and if out of the 220 required, 150 volunteers come forward for VR, that also takes a bit of pressure off those trying to stay in employment.
However, the options are there for Mgmt manipulation, and I predict that there will still be casualties further along the way
oh, BTW, just as minesapint pointed out earlier "the ATCO's and engineers will not support their ATSA colleagues"
as if we didn't know...
Naughty but Nice
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White Hart says...
"oh, BTW, just as minesapint pointed out earlier "the ATCO's and engineers will not support their ATSA colleagues"
as if we didn't know... "
Please don't tar us all with the same brush. I know that in times gone by the majority haven't been there with the ATSA's, but sometimes people simply aren't aware of the consequences and need to be informed. Sometimes they do know and don't care, but then it's up to those of us who do realise the value to do something about that view.
Some of us care about the ATSA's and engineers a great deal.
Cheers,
N
"Keep smiling, it makes people wonder what you're up to..."
"oh, BTW, just as minesapint pointed out earlier "the ATCO's and engineers will not support their ATSA colleagues"
as if we didn't know... "
Please don't tar us all with the same brush. I know that in times gone by the majority haven't been there with the ATSA's, but sometimes people simply aren't aware of the consequences and need to be informed. Sometimes they do know and don't care, but then it's up to those of us who do realise the value to do something about that view.
Some of us care about the ATSA's and engineers a great deal.
Cheers,
N
"Keep smiling, it makes people wonder what you're up to..."
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Northerner
sorry, but I disagree. From my own perspective as an ATSA 2, I've watched my Unit systematically decimated by poor management; new technology sometimes not fit for purpose; well-meaning, but weak, Union representation; and a big fat zero in terms of actual meaningful support from the other grades (and from Prospect in particular) within the building - all of whom are more than aware of our circumstances, and have been for as long as I've been there.
All this from colleagues big on words of comfort/support/consolation, and who would all expect us to jump through hoops to help out if things went tits-up, but of absolutely no help in offering genuine SUPPORT as alluded to in Minesapint's post. They all say we're a vital part of the team, but consistently refuse to do anything more than just spout rhetoric - so what sort of message do you think that gives us?
Look at this thread - its all about what the ATCOs want from the pay deal. There's no discussion or involvement with anybody else - the rest of us just have to watch from the sidelines. What I am sure about though, is that the vast majority of ATCOs across NATS neither know or care what the future holds for ATSAs as part of the NATS team, and even less for our small group of 14 support staff tucked away on top of that big shiny tin toilet at Heathrow.
Some of these colleagues I've known for nearly 20 years, and I'm honoured to consider them as my friends outside of the work environment, but when we're inside the situation is changed - its the ATCOs and everybody else. So, yes, unfortunately - I tar you, them and all the rest of you out there 'with the same brush'.
If you doubt my words, send a PM to Gonzo or DC10RM - they are both honest and realistic guys, and I'm sure they would confirm what I see as the reality of our situation, and also that of the ATSAs across the Company.
now back to the ATCO pay deal...
sorry, but I disagree. From my own perspective as an ATSA 2, I've watched my Unit systematically decimated by poor management; new technology sometimes not fit for purpose; well-meaning, but weak, Union representation; and a big fat zero in terms of actual meaningful support from the other grades (and from Prospect in particular) within the building - all of whom are more than aware of our circumstances, and have been for as long as I've been there.
All this from colleagues big on words of comfort/support/consolation, and who would all expect us to jump through hoops to help out if things went tits-up, but of absolutely no help in offering genuine SUPPORT as alluded to in Minesapint's post. They all say we're a vital part of the team, but consistently refuse to do anything more than just spout rhetoric - so what sort of message do you think that gives us?
Look at this thread - its all about what the ATCOs want from the pay deal. There's no discussion or involvement with anybody else - the rest of us just have to watch from the sidelines. What I am sure about though, is that the vast majority of ATCOs across NATS neither know or care what the future holds for ATSAs as part of the NATS team, and even less for our small group of 14 support staff tucked away on top of that big shiny tin toilet at Heathrow.
Some of these colleagues I've known for nearly 20 years, and I'm honoured to consider them as my friends outside of the work environment, but when we're inside the situation is changed - its the ATCOs and everybody else. So, yes, unfortunately - I tar you, them and all the rest of you out there 'with the same brush'.
If you doubt my words, send a PM to Gonzo or DC10RM - they are both honest and realistic guys, and I'm sure they would confirm what I see as the reality of our situation, and also that of the ATSAs across the Company.
now back to the ATCO pay deal...
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Incident occurred due the ATCO having to abandon their work station temporarily and go to the strip printer, as the ATSA that normally 'stripped up' had been 'cost engineered' out of the Ops Room.
The ATCO concerned missed the few traces that turned out to be a primary only infringer in direct conflict with traffic on the ILS. This was as a result of an ATSA not providing the ATCO with regular strip updates. Traffic was arriving on his frequency without the timely arrival of a Flight Progress Strip.
Prior to the culling of ATSAs, these members of staff provided an integral part of the safety culture that was part of the normal and standard operation.
The ATCO concerned missed the few traces that turned out to be a primary only infringer in direct conflict with traffic on the ILS. This was as a result of an ATSA not providing the ATCO with regular strip updates. Traffic was arriving on his frequency without the timely arrival of a Flight Progress Strip.
Prior to the culling of ATSAs, these members of staff provided an integral part of the safety culture that was part of the normal and standard operation.
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Zooker,
And that is exactly why I am leaving NATS in Feb '10.....
Cheers mate
White Hart, you have my sympathies...I am older than DC10, but not much wiser....
And that is exactly why I am leaving NATS in Feb '10.....
Cheers mate
White Hart, you have my sympathies...I am older than DC10, but not much wiser....
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One word "Uberlingen" that's what happens when there are not enough staff in an ops room to man a sector effectively. If ATCO's are leaving their working position to do a support function we are in trouble.
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White Hart
You have a very valid point about how some ATCOs view other grades... however
complete poppy-cock IMHO. The thread is open to all to write on, if people other than ATCOs do not exercise that right then that's up to them... it is not however caused by ATCOs stopping or overriding what others want!
If you want to watch from the sidelines, thats your lookout, but just because that's what some people want to do does not mean that they are being excluded.
btw, got my voting slip this morning - my 'no' vote has been returned. Anyone who trusts management must need their head examining - just look at how they have already reneged on the pension payments... 5 months after the votes were cast
You have a very valid point about how some ATCOs view other grades... however
Look at this thread - its all about what the ATCOs want from the pay deal. There's no discussion or involvement with anybody else - the rest of us just have to watch from the sidelines.
If you want to watch from the sidelines, thats your lookout, but just because that's what some people want to do does not mean that they are being excluded.
btw, got my voting slip this morning - my 'no' vote has been returned. Anyone who trusts management must need their head examining - just look at how they have already reneged on the pension payments... 5 months after the votes were cast
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For many reasons, but a couple are:
The fact that NATS have blown £40 odd million which could have been better used to help secure our financial future rather than line the pockets of the airline fraternity and, to date the only comeback from high on up seems to be 'but we had to'..... doesnt quite cut it with me ( and yes I realise we got some too, but I could have lived without £190 if it meant it was going into the pension pot).
Also the fact that NATS still are not paying what they should be into out pension and are dicking about with that, what a surprise!!!
To quote a colleague of mine, 'they can kiss my tits'
Not holding my breath to see what management will 'award' themselves in September when the whole world finds out how rich we are.
Note to self: must think twice from now on to bandboxing a sector as clearly it is a thankless task. But at least some management lackey will get a big payrise/bonus/recognition for my and our hard work.
My vote is in the post
The fact that NATS have blown £40 odd million which could have been better used to help secure our financial future rather than line the pockets of the airline fraternity and, to date the only comeback from high on up seems to be 'but we had to'..... doesnt quite cut it with me ( and yes I realise we got some too, but I could have lived without £190 if it meant it was going into the pension pot).
Also the fact that NATS still are not paying what they should be into out pension and are dicking about with that, what a surprise!!!
To quote a colleague of mine, 'they can kiss my tits'
Not holding my breath to see what management will 'award' themselves in September when the whole world finds out how rich we are.
Note to self: must think twice from now on to bandboxing a sector as clearly it is a thankless task. But at least some management lackey will get a big payrise/bonus/recognition for my and our hard work.
My vote is in the post
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No doubt BA will be bleating to Barron about costs, after its £401 Million loss this year. Still I suppose their share of the £43.5 million gifted to them by NATS will ease the pressure on their £338 million fine for crooked fuel surcharge dealings
. Nice part owners we have eh?
So I guess if they had not been bent then their loss would have been only £63 million 
. Nice part owners we have eh?
The Times added that the settlement brings BA's total payout for conspiring to fix fuel surcharges to 338 million pounds -- 12 million short of the total set aside for such penalties.
BA CEO Walsh said last August that its provision of 350 million pounds was sufficient to cover all fines related to its fuel surcharge price fixing
BA CEO Walsh said last August that its provision of 350 million pounds was sufficient to cover all fines related to its fuel surcharge price fixing
Last edited by Vote NO; 22nd May 2009 at 16:43.
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No vote is in the post.
My vote is nothing to do with being greedy (fwiw I think the deal was reasonable), but more to do with sending a message to managemnt that we feel they are being less than economical with the truth regarding our finances and a NO vote will allow this to drag on to beyond the announcement of our financial situation.
My vote is nothing to do with being greedy (fwiw I think the deal was reasonable), but more to do with sending a message to managemnt that we feel they are being less than economical with the truth regarding our finances and a NO vote will allow this to drag on to beyond the announcement of our financial situation.