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UK - NATS Pay negotiations - latest rumours

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UK - NATS Pay negotiations - latest rumours

Old 20th Apr 2009, 10:17
  #921 (permalink)  
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Update from PB in the NATS thread

BD
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Old 20th Apr 2009, 10:21
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AAVAs will continue unhindered. Lets face it, the vast majority of those that do them like the pots of gold too much to stop.
Whilst i agree with everything else you have said, this statement is a bit narrow minded.
I have no qualms about taking aavas if they are offered to me. I'm in the bottom third of the pay scale and as such sit next to some people doing exactly the same job but in some cases for almost half the pay.
An aava is a nice boost to my wages.
I, like many people in my "area" of the pay scale bought my house for stupid money within the last 5 years. This is by far my biggest expense. I wish i had had the opportunity to buy my house for 50 pence in the eighties or earlier like many people did.
As it stands, I do like the pot of gold, but it's not because I am greedy. It's a good bonus for a few hours work.
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Old 20th Apr 2009, 10:22
  #923 (permalink)  
 
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Spoke to a couple of friends who are reps yesterday - a bit of info gleaned re their thoughts on NSL and the SDC etc - not looking good for NATS as an ATC provider to tell the truth (nor NSL).

One of them even admited that he thought that the Unions were far too cosy with management and that he disagreed with a lot of what was going on. However as a rep, although you can voice your concerns at meetings etc, you have to toe the party line when it comes to official statements.

Bad times ahead in the next 2 weeks.

And for those wondering when they will see any payrise - don't expect it until at least July pay packets even if an agreement is made and accepted by end of May - NATS are having to draft in a specialist company to work out the back pay etc due to SMART pensions etc. It won't happen overnight.

As for AAVAs - not doing them is not the answer - the answer is the Union negotiating new, increased rates. The rates have been static for years, keeping the rates as they are only encourages management to skimp on operational manpower as AAVAS are cheaper than employing the correct amount of people.

As for PBs post - redundancies and cost cutting.

We have had a lot of redundancies/non renewal of contracts. In TC about half the assistants who are taking VR have gone, the rest go over the next couple of months.

Since the first lot have gone, we have started bringing more ATSAs in for overtime than previously, to make up for shortfall.

NATS - a World Leader in Mis-management of Manpower.

Last edited by anotherthing; 20th Apr 2009 at 10:33.
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Old 20th Apr 2009, 10:40
  #924 (permalink)  
 
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Whilst i agree with everything else you have said, this statement is a bit narrow minded.
I have no qualms about taking aavas if they are offered to me. I'm in the bottom third of the pay scale and as such sit next to some people doing exactly the same job but in some cases for almost half the pay.
An aava is a nice boost to my wages.
I, like many people in my "area" of the pay scale bought my house for stupid money within the last 5 years. This is by far my biggest expense. I wish i had had the opportunity to buy my house for 50 pence in the eighties or earlier like many people did.
As it stands, I do like the pot of gold, but it's not because I am greedy. It's a good bonus for a few hours work.
You said "greedy", I didn't. I said you liked the pot of gold, you agreed. So what is narrow-minded?
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Old 20th Apr 2009, 11:09
  #925 (permalink)  
 
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The way i read it made it appear to me as if you were talking with disdain towards people who do aavas. I assumed you are in a position higher up the pay scale than I and that the pot of gold does not appear as large to you?
i may have read the "tone" wrong, as can often happen on these pages.
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Old 20th Apr 2009, 11:13
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A precis of PB's message for those of you who don't have access to the NATS forum....

The Airline Group are getting a dividend because they deserve it. People on PCG contracts will continue to get overinflated bonuses and payrises whilst the rest of us get a paltry 2.5% or whatever the pathetic, blended RPI figure will be. And no mention/defence/rebuttal of his 9% payrise. In short, nothing we didnt already know.
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Old 20th Apr 2009, 12:26
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The way i read it made it appear to me as if you were talking with disdain towards people who do aavas. I assumed you are in a position higher up the pay scale than I and that the pot of gold does not appear as large to you?
i may have read the "tone" wrong, as can often happen on these pages.
Agreed, not always easy to accurately read the intended tone

I have no issue at all with anyone who chooses to do AAVAs, or people who choose to not do them. How you, or anyone else, chooses to earn the money to keep a roof over your head is more your business than mine! My point was more that it's a waste of time to suggest some form of AAVA boycott protest... because it simply wouldn't happen.
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Old 20th Apr 2009, 13:08
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Me Me Me Me

correct - there will always be people who do AAVAs - we would not even be able to get agreeemtn across the board to stop doing them out of protest.

The only sensible solution is to change the rates - i.e. bring them up to date. Maybe then management might look to staff operational tasks appropriately and not through AAVAs.

But of course, the Union won't have the balls, nor the gumption, to re-negotiate AAVAs - that would take time and effort and it seems that doing the minumum is what goes nowadays.

Pensions and pay deal has to be negotiated, otherwise no doubt they would just be left to rune their course as well.
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Old 20th Apr 2009, 14:09
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There is a lot of chat about AAVA's but I cannot remember the last time someone did one in TC.
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Old 20th Apr 2009, 14:32
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Tonight and tomorrow night - 1*AAVA for TMA North.
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Old 20th Apr 2009, 15:53
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the answer is the Union negotiating new, increased rates.
They are voluntary-if you don't like the rate don't do them-simple.

If an increased rate were to be negotiated then this will inevitably come out of the overall "pot" of money available and would then have an impact on every member of staff.

Surely it is sensible to keep the rate as it is in order for more to be available for any pensionable rise that may be offered?

Why should someone who has never done an AAVA-and there are plenty of them, potentially suffer in order to increase the rate for those who do?
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Old 20th Apr 2009, 16:07
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bit of a circular argument there, 250Kts

Why should someone who has never done an AAVA-and there are plenty of them, potentially suffer in order to increase the rate for those who do?
They are voluntary...
And it's personal choice not to do them as well...

So, to counter that, why should someone who does choose to do them suffer a stagnant rate, just because some people choose not to do them?

The issue is not whether or not people choose to do them, the issue is the fact that as they stand, management use them as a cheap way of manning the Ops room.

A different slant on the argument - if enroute did not insist on having T&P present whenever a sector is open, even when a tactical could do it on their own, manpower statistics would look better, less AAVAs would be needed, more money would be available for pensionable rises.

An equally valid argument, but like your above, has little meaning in real life.
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Old 20th Apr 2009, 16:37
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if enroute did not insist on having T&P present whenever a sector is open,
We don't-the Method of Operation on which LACC was designed and built demands it. End of. The regulations that would have to be put on for single manning during the day would far outweigh the benefit gained anyway. Pop in and try controlling as well as managing the electronics on a separate screen and also operating 2 data bases.

management use them as a cheap way of manning the Ops room.
I may agree with that if we weren't recruiting and training as fast as we possibly can. It is true that the use of them improves the service to the customers though.

So, to counter that, why should someone who does choose to do them suffer a stagnant rate
Because it is voluntary as to whether you accept the rate or not. It is not voluntary to attend on the other occasions we attend and therefore the emphasis should be put on pensionable pay. After all it is this consolidated pay that eventually is built upon to achieve long term salary increases.

And surely it is best to keep it at a rate so people don't come to rely on it. Remember, the agreement ceases in 2 years anyway.
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Old 20th Apr 2009, 16:52
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So, to counter that, why should someone who does choose to do them suffer a stagnant rate, just because some people choose not to do them?
Because in the long term it sells EVERYONE short if you do AAVAs... everyone except management. Just like selling of annual leave ... but don't even get me started on that ....

I say we should scrap AAVAs or make it at such a paltry rate that
a) management will jump at the 'chance' to employ us even cheaper
when
b) in reality, no-one (except the grubbiest of sectorwh*res will actually do it).
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Old 20th Apr 2009, 17:07
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1. I choose to do AAVAs when it suits me and not to help the 'company' - I realise it does but I'm not too bothered about that really, I just quite like an extra 10% of my wage for 8ish hours work...it's handy for paying for the wedding and moving house!

Then again, I haven't done one since November, and even last summer it was on average one every two months - mainly because we were the watch that needed AAVAs the most - I thought one guy had joined our watch permanently last year the number of overtime shifts he did with us.

2. Talking to an AC ATSA today about how many are leaving in the next few weeks, and today on East/North we were short as usual, yet three of those that were in will be leaving...I'm sure there is a grand plan to cover that?
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Old 20th Apr 2009, 17:32
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250 kts

Being professionals obviously you want to give customers a good service. They always will get that whether there are AAVAs in or not because thats the nature of the game. Perhaps if it wasn't so good they (the airlines) might think about giving up some of their dividends to ensure they get it!! And look into the obscene amounts given to those at the top at the cost of those providing the service...ATCOs ATSAs Engineers yeah ..I know its a pipe dream
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Old 20th Apr 2009, 17:42
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250Kts

I never once intimated that the controllers were the ones that demanded T&P in position all the time!

Pop in and try controlling as well as managing the electronics on a separate screen and also operating 2 data bases
Therein lies the great flaw in the system. I know for a fact that some of your sectors benefit greatly from the electronics, but that on the other hand, some sectors would work equally well without it.

Despite the fact that it does not suit the TC method of operation, it looks increasingly likely that we will go to EFD and a paperless environment.

It also looks like to do so succesfully we may have to man and boy every sector - akin to T&P. A completely retrograde step that will cost NATS more in the long run.

AAVAs are a legitimate source of cheap labour, if people want to do them, then good luck to them. Until the Union says we will not do them as a matter of course, then you can't moan at people for doing it.

Phantom99 - In TC we've not lost all the assistants we are going to yet, but we are already getting ATSAs in for overtime when previously there was no need - I think AC will be the same!!!
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Old 20th Apr 2009, 17:52
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Not if you want to make them unattractive. Maybe the subtlety was lost on you ... ?

But anyway ... playing Devil's Advocate..... if you get paid (for example) £300 salary at the bottom of the payscale for a days shift, and £600 at the top.... why should an extra days AAVA work be double time for one set of workers but not for the other .. ? Surely that is age discrimination ?
It depends on who you want to make an AAVA unattractive to. They should be unattractive to management by virtue of being more expensive to them than employing the correct number of staff (as anotherthing also said).

also playing devils advocate... is the whole spine point system not age discrimination too then?... or why should a newly valid, but at MUR, get paid less for a days overtime than someone who doesnt meet the MUR but who happens to be 3 or 4 points up the scale? They already earn almost twice as much but are less useful. I would suggest that as an AAVA you are only an extra number to get to that required on the day, therefore experience is irrelevant, and hence its a fixed rate. (plus, it would make the system for offering them much more complicated too if how much they earn comes into it! )


P.S.

' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' (please feel free to use these if i miss anymore out!)
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Old 20th Apr 2009, 18:40
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Therein lies the great flaw in the system. I know for a fact that some of your sectors benefit greatly from the electronics, but that on the other hand, some sectors would work equally well without it.
Well I have to say I can't think of any-but hey I only work there!

if enroute did not insist on having T&P present whenever a sector is open,
Your quote

It does sound as if you meant the controllers insisted on T&P

Until the Union says we will not do them as a matter of course, then you can't moan at people for doing it.
I didn't moan. I just pointed out the case not to increase the rate.
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Old 20th Apr 2009, 19:29
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So notwithstanding electronics, every sector in AC needs 2 controllers and an assistant?

So no sectors (forget the electronics were talking about controlling here) in AC could run with one controller yet in TC they all can and often do, (or maybe have one controller sharing a coordinator with 2 or 3 other controllers).

I'm not getting into a willy waving contest, all I'm saying is that electronics have necessitated an increase in manpower resources. Unfortunately it looks like TC might be going down the same backward path (certainly backward for TC).
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