UK - NATS Pay negotiations - latest rumours
Joined: Oct 2008
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From: Land of the sand people.
So how would we do that?
When will the union do some briefings to us members? They must be aware that many are unhappy with a variety of issues of how they are conducting themselves over the last 6 months or so, and would be a good way of venting opinions and getting some answers.
I would like to tell the higher up 'working together' types that they need to get their act together and start listening to what our opinions are rather than seemingly negotiating away in secret rooms and holding hands with management.
I am back into work in the morning, will start to pester my rep!
When will the union do some briefings to us members? They must be aware that many are unhappy with a variety of issues of how they are conducting themselves over the last 6 months or so, and would be a good way of venting opinions and getting some answers.
I would like to tell the higher up 'working together' types that they need to get their act together and start listening to what our opinions are rather than seemingly negotiating away in secret rooms and holding hands with management.
I am back into work in the morning, will start to pester my rep!
Joined: Feb 2006
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From: Hants
White Hart,
To be frank, yes I think it (NSL) is a lost cause, as we know it. If the union has the balls to stand up for NSL and fight to retain Ts&Cs, then I know a few reps that believe that some airports are ready to walk away from NATS at contract renewal time.
That is what I mean by NSL being screwed. Either the Ts ad Cs get changed or some airports walk away.
I do not want to see people working on different Ts and Cs, but at the same time, I don't want them to drop out of NATS by default. I think that NSL has been manoeuvred into a horrible corner. I'd like to be proven wrong, but I think this is the enactment of what has been inevitable since PPP.
Would I fight to keep NATS as it is, or rather to return to concentrating on doing what we do best i.e. ATC and not on trying to turn a profit and pleasing shareholders? Hell yes!!
Do I think the union will give me that chance to fight for my NSL colleagues? Hell no
To be frank, yes I think it (NSL) is a lost cause, as we know it. If the union has the balls to stand up for NSL and fight to retain Ts&Cs, then I know a few reps that believe that some airports are ready to walk away from NATS at contract renewal time.
That is what I mean by NSL being screwed. Either the Ts ad Cs get changed or some airports walk away.
I do not want to see people working on different Ts and Cs, but at the same time, I don't want them to drop out of NATS by default. I think that NSL has been manoeuvred into a horrible corner. I'd like to be proven wrong, but I think this is the enactment of what has been inevitable since PPP.
Would I fight to keep NATS as it is, or rather to return to concentrating on doing what we do best i.e. ATC and not on trying to turn a profit and pleasing shareholders? Hell yes!!
Do I think the union will give me that chance to fight for my NSL colleagues? Hell no
Joined: Jan 2001
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From: Destination 22
Not posted on here for a while, but one note on AAVAs and those who say the union should negotiate a better rate.
Why would management want to negotiate a better rate when people are coming in to do them for £300+ (after tax)?
If the union walked in and said we want more money then management will say "why? People are happy doing them at the current rate."
If no one does them then management will be forced to pay the going rate - the airlines have said they won't accept delays this summer due to staff shortages.
So it's very shortsighted to say you'll do them to pay for whatever.
If people stop doing them then management will be forced to accept that the current rate is too low. Or - shock horror - get the right amount of staff in.
And as for the willy waving - I'm not gonna get involved.
What happens to NSL over the next few months will soon come knocking at NERLs door. And if you believe that just because you work at a Band 4 or 5 unit that you're safe, then think again. Divide and conquer is the oldest strategy in the book - and it looks like its working.
Once again we need to stand together and support each other - ATCOs, ATSAs & Engineers alike.
SM
Why would management want to negotiate a better rate when people are coming in to do them for £300+ (after tax)?
If the union walked in and said we want more money then management will say "why? People are happy doing them at the current rate."
If no one does them then management will be forced to pay the going rate - the airlines have said they won't accept delays this summer due to staff shortages.
So it's very shortsighted to say you'll do them to pay for whatever.
If people stop doing them then management will be forced to accept that the current rate is too low. Or - shock horror - get the right amount of staff in.
And as for the willy waving - I'm not gonna get involved.
What happens to NSL over the next few months will soon come knocking at NERLs door. And if you believe that just because you work at a Band 4 or 5 unit that you're safe, then think again. Divide and conquer is the oldest strategy in the book - and it looks like its working.
Once again we need to stand together and support each other - ATCOs, ATSAs & Engineers alike.
SM
Joined: Oct 2008
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From: Land of the sand people.
For what its worth, or maybe not. With the new atos.co.uk site up and running, it may be worth posting coments on there as it has that function and maybe, prospect may take some notice at least.
Joined: Jan 2005
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From: at home
anotherthing
'Do I think the union will give me that chance to fight for my NSL colleagues? Hell no'
I would expect that the Union will give you an option to fight for NSL, but it will probably not be what they advise you to accept. Also, as I have said previously, people will vote for personal reasons, and not for the reasons required if a Union stance against the Company's policies is going to be effective.
Also, having two Unions is killing any chance of unity and mutual support across the board. It allows 'divide and conquer' tactics to work, and on many occasions, the Unions are actually doing the Mgmts dirty work for them!We've got to get rid of the 2-Union setup before there's any hope of being successful at the negotiating table.
It would be interesting to see how many staff would really be willing to support such a move, because there would have to be some massive changes in peoples' perception of each other, and their roles within the Company before it could be achieved.
The motivation to work in each others interests (which wasn't particularly strong in the first place, to be honest) has completely evaporated. I see this as the biggest problem the workforce faces, and any situation cannot be changed to our benefit while it lasts.
'Do I think the union will give me that chance to fight for my NSL colleagues? Hell no'
I would expect that the Union will give you an option to fight for NSL, but it will probably not be what they advise you to accept. Also, as I have said previously, people will vote for personal reasons, and not for the reasons required if a Union stance against the Company's policies is going to be effective.
Also, having two Unions is killing any chance of unity and mutual support across the board. It allows 'divide and conquer' tactics to work, and on many occasions, the Unions are actually doing the Mgmts dirty work for them!We've got to get rid of the 2-Union setup before there's any hope of being successful at the negotiating table.
It would be interesting to see how many staff would really be willing to support such a move, because there would have to be some massive changes in peoples' perception of each other, and their roles within the Company before it could be achieved.
The motivation to work in each others interests (which wasn't particularly strong in the first place, to be honest) has completely evaporated. I see this as the biggest problem the workforce faces, and any situation cannot be changed to our benefit while it lasts.
Joined: Feb 2008
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From: Got the radio on.
With the new atos.co.uk site up and running
Joined: Feb 2006
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From: Hants
WH
You are correct, a lot of people would have to change their perceptions, but the only way to have a NATS that is based on the premise of being the best ATC provider is to have a strong NERL and NSL and for operational types to have the backup and support of backroom staff.
Unfortunately, I think the idea of NATS being run to be the best ATC provider it possibly can has taken a backseat to profit.
Roadrunner one
The motions are just both sides of the argument of a few different subjects. Depending which motion carries the day will dictate the union stance and will be incorporated into the handbook.
Obviously, if people want NATS to stay as it is and to protect all members equally, there is a clear path to follow on the motions. There is nothing sneaky in the motions for consideration, merely it raises the topics to be discussed and the possible stances - there has to be argument and counter argument even just to debate, so that delegates understand the implications of all options.
It is the debate and then the agreement of a particular motion that will be telling - hopefully it will not end up with the Unions selling NSL down the river. SDC1 should be a no brainer to be incorporated...
You are correct, a lot of people would have to change their perceptions, but the only way to have a NATS that is based on the premise of being the best ATC provider is to have a strong NERL and NSL and for operational types to have the backup and support of backroom staff.
Unfortunately, I think the idea of NATS being run to be the best ATC provider it possibly can has taken a backseat to profit.
Roadrunner one
The motions are just both sides of the argument of a few different subjects. Depending which motion carries the day will dictate the union stance and will be incorporated into the handbook.
Obviously, if people want NATS to stay as it is and to protect all members equally, there is a clear path to follow on the motions. There is nothing sneaky in the motions for consideration, merely it raises the topics to be discussed and the possible stances - there has to be argument and counter argument even just to debate, so that delegates understand the implications of all options.
It is the debate and then the agreement of a particular motion that will be telling - hopefully it will not end up with the Unions selling NSL down the river. SDC1 should be a no brainer to be incorporated...
Joined: Feb 2008
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From: Got the radio on.
Yeah, I can see the structure of the motions and the choices on offer. It just seems quite starkly polarised between policies of bloody-minded (and that is the way some of the wording comes across) non-cooperation with management on one hand, and complete capitulation to management's wish-list on the other.
Joined: Aug 2002
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From: USA
SDC 8 COMMON DEBATE WITH SDC9 Conference instructs the BEC to consider members within NATS as a single workforce and to resist any attempts to differentiate between the terms and conditions of those within NSL and NERL.
However if that FAILS well then.........
Conference recognises the differing commercial pressures between NSL and NERL. Conference instructs the BEC to consider differing National Agreements, including pay and working practices, for NSL and NERL if this is in the best interest of the members.
What the **** are the union up to?? ........
Joined: Dec 1999
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From: LHR/EGLL
EW, it's called a debate.
The debate will end with one motion, or the other, being voted in; either the Union is to 'consider members within NATS as a single workforce and to resist any attempts to differentiate between the terms and conditions of those within NSL and NERL' or it is to 'consider differing National Agreements, including pay and working practices, for NSL and NERL if this is in the best interest of the members'
(My bolding).
It's either one or the other, surely. There is no 3rd option.
The debate will end with one motion, or the other, being voted in; either the Union is to 'consider members within NATS as a single workforce and to resist any attempts to differentiate between the terms and conditions of those within NSL and NERL' or it is to 'consider differing National Agreements, including pay and working practices, for NSL and NERL if this is in the best interest of the members'
(My bolding).
It's either one or the other, surely. There is no 3rd option.
Joined: Sep 2002
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From: 24/7 Hardcore Heaven
Instead of waving willys around
And the 50p thing was, FFS, a joke.
Joined: Apr 2008
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From: Rebel HQ
I think unfortunately NSL are already shafted due to the DAS* bias in our union and BEC.
(*Doesn't Affect Swanwick)
We've seen it over many big issues in the past. They have the votes to override everyone else and if they are not getting something from the pie, then they don't really care about anyone else.
Note this is not aimed at Swanwick individuals, but based on the past collective voting performances of their reps at Annual Delegate Conferences, etc. Their record speaks for itself, and their track record on standing up for the little guy is almost non existent.
Mr777
It's an internet forum and we can't tell what tone of voice you are 'talking in' simply from the written word. If you'd put a smiley or something similar, or a textspeak comment like 'lol', then maybe we'd have guessed you weren't being serious. Reading your post as read, you come across as being serious and your words (at face value) indicate a critical and condescending manner.
(*Doesn't Affect Swanwick)
We've seen it over many big issues in the past. They have the votes to override everyone else and if they are not getting something from the pie, then they don't really care about anyone else.
Note this is not aimed at Swanwick individuals, but based on the past collective voting performances of their reps at Annual Delegate Conferences, etc. Their record speaks for itself, and their track record on standing up for the little guy is almost non existent.
Mr777
And the 50p thing was, FFS, a joke.
It's an internet forum and we can't tell what tone of voice you are 'talking in' simply from the written word. If you'd put a smiley or something similar, or a textspeak comment like 'lol', then maybe we'd have guessed you weren't being serious. Reading your post as read, you come across as being serious and your words (at face value) indicate a critical and condescending manner.
peace breaks out ... whatever next 
