UK - NATS Pay negotiations - latest rumours
Beady Eye
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The redundancies - some would say that we have been running overstaffed in some areas for some time.
Contractors - see above
Contractors - see above
BD
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Another quote from the latest NTUS circular
"It is disappointing to report that a number of scheduled meetings have been cancelled although we did meet with management on the 27th February. It is equally disappointing to report that, despite our expectation that NATS would make a formal offer at that meeting, none was forthcoming.
The next joint meeting is scheduled for the 16th March with further dates of 23rd March and 3rd April in the diary."
There does seem to be a bit of a communications problem affecting some posters on this site - still, you can't make a decent rumour using real facts, can you?
The next joint meeting is scheduled for the 16th March with further dates of 23rd March and 3rd April in the diary."
There does seem to be a bit of a communications problem affecting some posters on this site - still, you can't make a decent rumour using real facts, can you?
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Union BEC have called a special delegates conference for next month to discuss issues relating to NSL which have become apparent during talks with management. Sell off anyone? Closing Pension scheme for NSL?
More news next week after BEC meets on 11th and 12th
More news next week after BEC meets on 11th and 12th
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Thanks for the update 
Makes me mad about NSL sell off rumours. I asked the union bod (Scots guy) at the pension briefing about NSL and he lost the plot, went red with anger and denied it would be sold off once the pension deal went through.
I then told him he was living in cloud cuckoo land 
. I lost faith in our Union after that. If they do sell NSL off they can shove their membership where the sun don't shine
Makes me mad about NSL sell off rumours. I asked the union bod (Scots guy) at the pension briefing about NSL and he lost the plot, went red with anger and denied it would be sold off once the pension deal went through.
I then told him he was living in cloud cuckoo land . I lost faith in our Union after that. If they do sell NSL off they can shove their membership where the sun don't shine
Last edited by Vote NO; 9th Mar 2009 at 21:01.
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The latest contract we have 'won' (sounds a bit like ebay where they say you've won the item... that you are paying for) does not exactly have good repercussions financially for either the pension pot, or NATS collectively, or dare I say it NSL if NATS are looking to get rid.
Basically, as far as Ts and Cs (including pension) are concerned, we're (NATS collectively, old scheme members and new) screwed.
Basically, as far as Ts and Cs (including pension) are concerned, we're (NATS collectively, old scheme members and new) screwed.
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Just seems very scary that this meeting, which again the union's great communication skills, dont actually specify what these "Areas" of concern are. Specifically mentions NSL, and not just NATS as a whole.
Is this possibly linked to the shambles that is the manchester airport contract, in that they have discovered just how much money is being waisted there? ATCO's in offices on ATCO1 pay, 3 Managers per watch. For a unit that as recorded movements of less than 300 some days. They've realised how much money is being waisted there, and have now turned their eyes to other NSL contracts that are struggling and having pressure put on them by the airport operators to cut costs.
Perhaps they are looking at a regrading of the bands again, or maybe a seperate pay deal for NSL units. Or just plain simply selling it off, or some of it.
Personally I think we deserve a pay rise, but as any pay rise is a percentage one, and a percentage of more is more, there is some real issues with the banding system within NSL. A DWM at a atco 3 unit with 20 years service, 2 or 3 ratings(ratings not just validations) earns less than a Luton/stansted approach controller with 8 years service who does nothing but control. Im sorry but I cant see the justification that EGCC have ATCO1 watchmanagers that dont have to plug in very often, yet then have a DWM on ATCO1 Substitution pay, and a SCOD on ATCO1 Substitution pay, then a whole bunch of ATCO1/2 sitting in office doing work the 3 managers could do on each watch. An ATSA3/4 per watch to manage the assistants, all in a unit that as a fairly simple approach in sense of complexity, ok a fairly complex ground, and has had a massive downturn in traffic, with some days not even shifting 300 movements. and also for the last however many years, have been losing millions a year, undoing any good the rest of NSL do.
So when it comes to looking at pay rises if there one pot of money to give them out in, then if you have to give more to some than others, then that means there going to be less to give in general, So some of the dross needs to go, the bands need to be fair, the scales for WM, DWM, LCE's needs to reflect the work they do and not just the Unit its at. Then when you come along to negotiate payrises what actually comes out is fairer. Rather than those that are losing us money actually getting a better share of it!
In a selfish world we should all be bumped upto the EGCC terms, but in a real world, yes we deserve a pay rise, yes I'd vote yes to industrial action on a pay freeze, yes I'd vote yes to Industrial action, if they tried to apply unfair Banding, but If they choose to bump EGCC to come in line with the rest of the NSL units im sorry for once i'd be inclined to agree with management.
Is this possibly linked to the shambles that is the manchester airport contract, in that they have discovered just how much money is being waisted there? ATCO's in offices on ATCO1 pay, 3 Managers per watch. For a unit that as recorded movements of less than 300 some days. They've realised how much money is being waisted there, and have now turned their eyes to other NSL contracts that are struggling and having pressure put on them by the airport operators to cut costs.
Perhaps they are looking at a regrading of the bands again, or maybe a seperate pay deal for NSL units. Or just plain simply selling it off, or some of it.
Personally I think we deserve a pay rise, but as any pay rise is a percentage one, and a percentage of more is more, there is some real issues with the banding system within NSL. A DWM at a atco 3 unit with 20 years service, 2 or 3 ratings(ratings not just validations) earns less than a Luton/stansted approach controller with 8 years service who does nothing but control. Im sorry but I cant see the justification that EGCC have ATCO1 watchmanagers that dont have to plug in very often, yet then have a DWM on ATCO1 Substitution pay, and a SCOD on ATCO1 Substitution pay, then a whole bunch of ATCO1/2 sitting in office doing work the 3 managers could do on each watch. An ATSA3/4 per watch to manage the assistants, all in a unit that as a fairly simple approach in sense of complexity, ok a fairly complex ground, and has had a massive downturn in traffic, with some days not even shifting 300 movements. and also for the last however many years, have been losing millions a year, undoing any good the rest of NSL do.
So when it comes to looking at pay rises if there one pot of money to give them out in, then if you have to give more to some than others, then that means there going to be less to give in general, So some of the dross needs to go, the bands need to be fair, the scales for WM, DWM, LCE's needs to reflect the work they do and not just the Unit its at. Then when you come along to negotiate payrises what actually comes out is fairer. Rather than those that are losing us money actually getting a better share of it!
In a selfish world we should all be bumped upto the EGCC terms, but in a real world, yes we deserve a pay rise, yes I'd vote yes to industrial action on a pay freeze, yes I'd vote yes to Industrial action, if they tried to apply unfair Banding, but If they choose to bump EGCC to come in line with the rest of the NSL units im sorry for once i'd be inclined to agree with management.
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How much will Nats lose over the EGCC contract over 5 years ?
Is this "contract" designed to stop rivals offering lower bids? Lets face it, you cant offer less than f**k all
Sounds like we are rapidly becoming the Ryanair of ATC
Is this "contract" designed to stop rivals offering lower bids? Lets face it, you cant offer less than f**k all
Sounds like we are rapidly becoming the Ryanair of ATC
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They technically shouldnt lose anything on it, as it a non profit contract, but of course if they dont cuts costs then one, we wont make profit, two, as other costs increase...namely paying ATCO1's payrises then the ability to keep it at non profit or turn it into profit making doesnt happen.
Its good that we retained this contract, not just for the people at EGCC, but because losing it could have caused us other issues, MAG providing ATC at EGCC, along with EGNX, EGHH, EGNJ would have been cause for concern, having EGCC in their portfolio would have made them look like a contender to provide ATC elsewhere, and would have justified them setting up a dedicated ATC support system to do just that, other NSL units could have come under fire.
There are also issues where the economics of supporting CTC, NSL HQ etc, could be effected by losing contracts. However it still shows by the fact that we got into this state in the first place that there is so serious inefficiencies within some parts of NATS/NSL. EGCC seems to be still living from the days of it being run by an Area supervisor, and hiding its inefficiencies within the NERL MACC that there. When they all leave and it becomes obvious the amount of people sitting around on massive salairies for a unit that is losing traffic left right and center. They may realise that it time for some creative accounting. IF the rest of NSL have to have managers that control as much as the staff, work on their breaks, dont have dedicated safety managers, LCE co-ordinators that sit in offices, managers for assistants, 3 managers per watch, then I dont see why EGCC should, fine if you are EGLL making mega bucks, but when you've been losing mega bucks for years, I think you have to accept that the good times are over.
Its good that we retained this contract, not just for the people at EGCC, but because losing it could have caused us other issues, MAG providing ATC at EGCC, along with EGNX, EGHH, EGNJ would have been cause for concern, having EGCC in their portfolio would have made them look like a contender to provide ATC elsewhere, and would have justified them setting up a dedicated ATC support system to do just that, other NSL units could have come under fire.
There are also issues where the economics of supporting CTC, NSL HQ etc, could be effected by losing contracts. However it still shows by the fact that we got into this state in the first place that there is so serious inefficiencies within some parts of NATS/NSL. EGCC seems to be still living from the days of it being run by an Area supervisor, and hiding its inefficiencies within the NERL MACC that there. When they all leave and it becomes obvious the amount of people sitting around on massive salairies for a unit that is losing traffic left right and center. They may realise that it time for some creative accounting. IF the rest of NSL have to have managers that control as much as the staff, work on their breaks, dont have dedicated safety managers, LCE co-ordinators that sit in offices, managers for assistants, 3 managers per watch, then I dont see why EGCC should, fine if you are EGLL making mega bucks, but when you've been losing mega bucks for years, I think you have to accept that the good times are over.
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Union BEC have called a special delegates conference for next month to discuss issues relating to NSL which have become apparent during talks with management
F**k me. So they can convince our reps with massaged figures etc. When will the higher echelons of the union grow some balls? I also hear that management are trying to screw NSL but for the moment the union is holding firm. A withdrawal of the NERL AAVA agreement has been suggested but thrown out by the NERL side (major majority) of the union reps. Thanks for the support, as this would be a major slap to management.
It will only be a matter of time before the union caves in, NERL get a rise (with LHR no doubt) and NSL get left way behind again. Don't tell me Prospect, your hands are tied!
StandupfortheUlstermen
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Christ I hope this isn't true, I'm not sure how much of the hokey cokey my career can take - Yer inside NATS, yer outside NATS, back in, out again, screw yer pension up.
All cos some tw4t wants to make a few bob before fecking off to screw some other poor b4stards.
All cos some tw4t wants to make a few bob before fecking off to screw some other poor b4stards.
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If a prime reason to 'Down Band' a unit is a drop in traffic,then surely pretty much every NSL unit bar EGLL and EGLC would have to take a drop in Banding, this may also have repercussions at NERL with regards to some of the Approach Radar provided there i.e EGSS/EGGW - can't see it happening as it would open a massive can of worms. You only have to look at the weekly stats on the NATSNET (if you can be ar$ed) to see the substantial drop in traffic most units are suffering.
. You only have to look at the weekly stats on the NATSNET (if you can be ar$ed) to see the substantial drop in traffic most units are suffering.
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Airlines ask Commission to change rules that could prevent them cutting capacity.
Even EGLL might suffer a drop if the airlines get their way!
© 2009 European Voice. All rights reserved.
A group of European airlines has asked the European Commission to suspend the rules that govern how long an airline can hold its landing and take-off slots at European airports. In a letter to the Commission, the Association of European Airlines (AEA) said that current rules – which dictate that an airline must use all of its slots 80% of the time, or face losing them to other airlines the following year – could create difficulties for airlines cutting capacity during the current economic crisis.