UK - NATS Pay negotiations - latest rumours
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Well my twopence worth is,
Payrise.....Miracle
Payfreeze.....Possible
Paycut......Probable
Mr B has got his chance to get wages down.Looks like the Union have already surrendered.
Maybe if there are paycuts then the upper bands should take the hit,and redress the balance to the lower bands.
Since the lower bands took the hit in the past,so the upper bands could be where they are today.
Payrise.....Miracle
Payfreeze.....Possible
Paycut......Probable
Mr B has got his chance to get wages down.Looks like the Union have already surrendered.
Maybe if there are paycuts then the upper bands should take the hit,and redress the balance to the lower bands.
Since the lower bands took the hit in the past,so the upper bands could be where they are today.
StandupfortheUlstermen
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So Prospect successfully fought -
Privatisation of VOSA - Yes (it seems our roads are more important than our skies, but there you go)
Privatisation of NATS - No
Downgrading of pensions in the Electricity industry - Yes
Downgrading of pensions in NATS - No
For cost of living increases - Audit Commission (4.9%), Highways Agency (4.45%), BAE Land Systems Munitions (5.6%), even Arista (3%).
For cost of living increases - NATS (0 or -% ?)
Am I being cynical or is there a pattern emerging here?
Privatisation of VOSA - Yes (it seems our roads are more important than our skies, but there you go)
Privatisation of NATS - No
Downgrading of pensions in the Electricity industry - Yes
Downgrading of pensions in NATS - No
For cost of living increases - Audit Commission (4.9%), Highways Agency (4.45%), BAE Land Systems Munitions (5.6%), even Arista (3%).
For cost of living increases - NATS (0 or -% ?)
Am I being cynical or is there a pattern emerging here?
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STATEMENT FROM PROSPECT and PCS
Below is a statement which has just gone out which I hope sheds some light on what appears to be a missunderstanding of the Unions position. I hope this clarifies the situation 
Dear Colleague,
The purpose of this circular is to update you on the issue of pay. Some members may have read an article covering NATS pay in the most recent edition of Prospects magazine Profile. Unfortunately this article was incorrect and factually misleading. The article published was an initial draft put together by Prospect communications department which had been subsequently corrected. Unfortunately it was the initial draft which was published.
As you will be aware, Prospect and PCS submitted a “core pay” claim to
Management for 2009 in September 2008. This is a moderate claim for an increase of RPI + 1% based on the August 08 RPI figure. Since that date Prospect and PCS have been seeking to enter into substantive negotiations with NATS in order to advance the interests of members.
Whilst some discussions have taken place, management have yet to make a formal pay offer and have suggested a pay freeze in the light of the current economic downturn and rising pension’s costs.
For clarity, both PCS and Prospect stand ready to enter into formal negotiations with management on the issue of pay and are exasperated by the lack of progress.
For clarity, in a context where NATS is scheduled to make significant profits this year and debate as to whether a dividend should be paid to shareholders, particularly against the backdrop of the recent pensions ballot, such a position as articulated by management to seek to impose a pay freeze will be met by a ballot of PCS and Prospect members on industrial action.
We will keep you in touch with developments.
Garry Graham
Dear Colleague,
The purpose of this circular is to update you on the issue of pay. Some members may have read an article covering NATS pay in the most recent edition of Prospects magazine Profile. Unfortunately this article was incorrect and factually misleading. The article published was an initial draft put together by Prospect communications department which had been subsequently corrected. Unfortunately it was the initial draft which was published.
As you will be aware, Prospect and PCS submitted a “core pay” claim to
Management for 2009 in September 2008. This is a moderate claim for an increase of RPI + 1% based on the August 08 RPI figure. Since that date Prospect and PCS have been seeking to enter into substantive negotiations with NATS in order to advance the interests of members.
Whilst some discussions have taken place, management have yet to make a formal pay offer and have suggested a pay freeze in the light of the current economic downturn and rising pension’s costs.
For clarity, both PCS and Prospect stand ready to enter into formal negotiations with management on the issue of pay and are exasperated by the lack of progress.
For clarity, in a context where NATS is scheduled to make significant profits this year and debate as to whether a dividend should be paid to shareholders, particularly against the backdrop of the recent pensions ballot, such a position as articulated by management to seek to impose a pay freeze will be met by a ballot of PCS and Prospect members on industrial action.
We will keep you in touch with developments.
Garry Graham
Paul Smith
National Secretary National Officer
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Firstly, why was there even a draft article stating we had postponed talks if there was no thought of doing so?
Are the Union pre-empting things?
Does this show the reality of what the Union intends to settle for?
The Union:
Yahoo!
I'm sorry, but in the statement from the union, I see nothing that makes me like the 'cut of his jib'. He has stated we are exasperated by the lack of progress. He has stated that if the management try to impose a pay freeze, we will ballot for industrial action.
If I was management, I would be very happy. No threat of working to rule or such like if management do not enter negotiations, just a 'feeling of exasperation'. Doesn't make me tremble.
How long do we continue to be exasperated before we move it to the next level???
What is the next level, trepidation???
How much longer do we allow this to be dragged on for, as recession deepens?
It's all very well saying we are not happy, but management are the ones who touted 'working together'. If they are not entering into meaningful discussions, we should be taking them to task, not expressing exasperation FFS.
The Union said many fine things before the pension talks started - lets not start forgetting such recent history.
Words are meaningless. If we don't get management round the table, we might as well get more KY Jelly ready.
BigDaddyBoxMeal
Wrong!
35% of staff did not vote. Therefore the majority of staff did not agree with the proposal, only the majority of people who bothered to vote agreed with it.
Many people did not vote, some did not receive ballot papers. There were some who informed reps they had not received a ballot paper, and asked for one. They were told by reps that they could not have one as one had been sent to them
Throw A Dyce
I think pay rises are the least of NSLs worries, I'm afraid to say. NSL was effectively lost when we voted yes to the pension, or more accurately when PPP was voted in.
Anyone else notice that NATS no longer has the remit of striving to be the 'World Leader In ATM?
Whilst it is still acknowledged that the operational side continues to provide amongst the best service provision in the World, in some of the most challenging airspace/airports, the company standing has fallen. We are now trailing far behind some of our European counterparts - officially.
NATS has lost sight of itself since PPP. We are witnessing the demise of NATS as we know it.
Last one out, switch off the lights.
Are the Union pre-empting things?
Does this show the reality of what the Union intends to settle for?
The Union:
For clarity, both PCS and Prospect stand ready to enter into formal negotiations with management on the issue of pay and are exasperated by the lack of progress.
For clarity, in a context where NATS is scheduled to make significant profits this year and debate as to whether a dividend should be paid to shareholders, particularly against the backdrop of the recent pensions ballot, such a position as articulated by management to seek to impose a pay freeze will be met by a ballot of PCS and Prospect members on industrial action.
For clarity, in a context where NATS is scheduled to make significant profits this year and debate as to whether a dividend should be paid to shareholders, particularly against the backdrop of the recent pensions ballot, such a position as articulated by management to seek to impose a pay freeze will be met by a ballot of PCS and Prospect members on industrial action.
Lets hope Garry can walk the walk too. I like the cut of his jib though.
If I was management, I would be very happy. No threat of working to rule or such like if management do not enter negotiations, just a 'feeling of exasperation'. Doesn't make me tremble.
How long do we continue to be exasperated before we move it to the next level???
What is the next level, trepidation???
How much longer do we allow this to be dragged on for, as recession deepens?
It's all very well saying we are not happy, but management are the ones who touted 'working together'. If they are not entering into meaningful discussions, we should be taking them to task, not expressing exasperation FFS.
The Union said many fine things before the pension talks started - lets not start forgetting such recent history.
Words are meaningless. If we don't get management round the table, we might as well get more KY Jelly ready.
BigDaddyBoxMeal
...the majority of the workforce agreed with the management proposal !!!
35% of staff did not vote. Therefore the majority of staff did not agree with the proposal, only the majority of people who bothered to vote agreed with it.
Many people did not vote, some did not receive ballot papers. There were some who informed reps they had not received a ballot paper, and asked for one. They were told by reps that they could not have one as one had been sent to them
Throw A Dyce
Mr B has got his chance to get wages down.Looks like the Union have already surrendered.
Maybe if there are paycuts then the upper bands should take the hit,and redress the balance to the lower bands.
Since the lower bands took the hit in the past,so the upper bands could be where they are today
Maybe if there are paycuts then the upper bands should take the hit,and redress the balance to the lower bands.
Since the lower bands took the hit in the past,so the upper bands could be where they are today
Anyone else notice that NATS no longer has the remit of striving to be the 'World Leader In ATM?
Whilst it is still acknowledged that the operational side continues to provide amongst the best service provision in the World, in some of the most challenging airspace/airports, the company standing has fallen. We are now trailing far behind some of our European counterparts - officially.
NATS has lost sight of itself since PPP. We are witnessing the demise of NATS as we know it.
Last one out, switch off the lights.
Last edited by anotherthing; 16th Feb 2009 at 14:50.
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Clap Clap Clap
Another thing,
I like the cut of your jib... Wise words, and not softly spoken. These pay negotations are now getting beyond a joke, a date should be set. Say 31st March, deal done, or else we ballot for industrial action.
As for what action should be required, well I always thought that the idea of a weeks strike plan was a good one.
Monday: AC walk out
Tuesday: TC
Wednesday: MACC
Thurs: SCottish
Fri: Oceanic
Sat: Well lets give the CTC a day, so they can feel like part of it (only kidding all you CTCers out there)
Sun: Well the lord did say we needed a day of rest
Mon: Revert to above...
How long do you think it would be before Mr Barron's Batphone has Willie Walsh, Steve Ridgeway and the rest on?? Sunday night?? I dont think it'd even get to that, and we'd have our Pay, as we were promised
I like the cut of your jib... Wise words, and not softly spoken. These pay negotations are now getting beyond a joke, a date should be set. Say 31st March, deal done, or else we ballot for industrial action.
As for what action should be required, well I always thought that the idea of a weeks strike plan was a good one.
Monday: AC walk out
Tuesday: TC
Wednesday: MACC
Thurs: SCottish
Fri: Oceanic
Sat: Well lets give the CTC a day, so they can feel like part of it (only kidding all you CTCers out there)
Sun: Well the lord did say we needed a day of rest
Mon: Revert to above...
How long do you think it would be before Mr Barron's Batphone has Willie Walsh, Steve Ridgeway and the rest on?? Sunday night?? I dont think it'd even get to that, and we'd have our Pay, as we were promised
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monday 0000, total walkout,
thursday 0000, back to work.
In reality we would be back in by tuesday afternoon after a management cave-in brought about by significant govt and public pressure. As long as we employ a top PR man that is as otherwise we would be made to look like the fools we are.
The fact that we as nats atcos are held in higher regard by other states atc providers than our own is a sad position for us to be in. Thats how i feel anyway.
thursday 0000, back to work.
In reality we would be back in by tuesday afternoon after a management cave-in brought about by significant govt and public pressure. As long as we employ a top PR man that is as otherwise we would be made to look like the fools we are.
The fact that we as nats atcos are held in higher regard by other states atc providers than our own is a sad position for us to be in. Thats how i feel anyway.
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MedwayControl
Nah,
a series of strikes so that every watch gets a day (to make it fair). All units out as one. Maximum disruption, minimum time.
Management would be on their knees pleading before 10am on the very first morning.
I do hope it doe not come to industrial action, but if management aren't going to even talk, **** 'em.
Mind you, after the pension result, plus the number of non voters, if I was management, I'd be pretty confident that the much vaunted powder was very damp.
Nah,
a series of strikes so that every watch gets a day (to make it fair). All units out as one. Maximum disruption, minimum time.
Management would be on their knees pleading before 10am on the very first morning.
I do hope it doe not come to industrial action, but if management aren't going to even talk, **** 'em.
Mind you, after the pension result, plus the number of non voters, if I was management, I'd be pretty confident that the much vaunted powder was very damp.
Last edited by PPRuNe Radar; 16th Feb 2009 at 15:48.
StandupfortheUlstermen
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Why 4%? The company allegedly wants to use Aug RPI so why not make it last August's RPI of 4.8%? That wouldn't even be a pay increase, just keeping pace with the cost of living.
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If management offer 0%, and we ask for 5%, then we meet in the middle and get 2.5%, .Thats how it always has been done. Nats has about 4,000 staff on an ave. of about £50,000 pa. A 2.5% payrise would cost Nats around £5,000,000, a mere drop in the ocean to a company boasting of its profits over the last few years
Performance - NATS
NATS recorded its fifth consecutive year of profit in 2007/08.
We declared profits of £66.7m on revenues of £742.5m. These results were delivered against growth in traffic of three per cent to nearly 2.5m flights. The average delay per flight was 26.8 seconds
NATS continues to strive to offer the best possible value to its customers on safety, service and cost.
Does anyone have an idea of what our profits are likely to be for 2008/2009 ? Nats can well afford to give us a decent payrise, dont let anyone tell you any different. The figures speak for themselves 
.Thats how it always has been done. Nats has about 4,000 staff on an ave. of about £50,000 pa. A 2.5% payrise would cost Nats around £5,000,000, a mere drop in the ocean to a company boasting of its profits over the last few years Performance - NATS
NATS recorded its fifth consecutive year of profit in 2007/08.
We declared profits of £66.7m on revenues of £742.5m. These results were delivered against growth in traffic of three per cent to nearly 2.5m flights. The average delay per flight was 26.8 seconds
NATS continues to strive to offer the best possible value to its customers on safety, service and cost.
Last edited by Vote NO; 16th Feb 2009 at 17:47.
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Initially when I got the email, I was chuffed at the way he was setting the record stright and taking the "tough stance" towards management.
Then upon reflection ONE NATS, ONE PENSION popped into my head!
Then upon reflection ONE NATS, ONE PENSION popped into my head!
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don't be so sensitive love.
I wasn't having a go at you, I was quoting you so that my comment that followed would be in context. All better now poppet???
My comment was my point of view, stating that I did not think that just because Mr Graham said one thing, that it actually amounted to much, especially given the recent track history of the Union saying one thing then doing something else.
And the quotes are correct - don't understand what you mean by learn to quote properly, there is more than one correct way of doing things, just because I don't always choose to use vB Code - I'd expect an ATCO would know that
Bless...
I wasn't having a go at you, I was quoting you so that my comment that followed would be in context. All better now poppet???
My comment was my point of view, stating that I did not think that just because Mr Graham said one thing, that it actually amounted to much, especially given the recent track history of the Union saying one thing then doing something else.
And the quotes are correct - don't understand what you mean by learn to quote properly, there is more than one correct way of doing things, just because I don't always choose to use vB Code - I'd expect an ATCO would know that
Bless...
Last edited by anotherthing; 16th Feb 2009 at 17:23.
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Ava`s
perhaps our good leadership in prospect,could lead from the front and perhaps not do most of the ava`s on offer, that the rest of us are now shunning.
now if i was a manager, i would be screwing us into the ground big time, after all, i won the pensions issue hands down, even with a sizeable number not voting, so who is going to challange me over something small like a payfreeze?
perhaps i could work together with the unions and get them to do the dirty work for me again......., now there is a thought!!!!!
now if i was a manager, i would be screwing us into the ground big time, after all, i won the pensions issue hands down, even with a sizeable number not voting, so who is going to challange me over something small like a payfreeze?
perhaps i could work together with the unions and get them to do the dirty work for me again......., now there is a thought!!!!!
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Anotherthing,
Well for the moment the pay talks cover NSL and NERL under one umbrella.
Perhaps giving NSL staff a separate say in their own pay and conditions,might not be such a bad thing since we have been railroaded by the centres in the past,to fund their own big increases.
It's NERL who are looking for the big cost savings.This has already been done to a large extent in NSL,as it is a much leaner operation.
Yet we hear that the BAA owe NSL £3 million,but NSL aren't persuing them,because it may affect any future contract negotiations.
The union's statement about payfreeze =industrial action ballot is about as threatening as the pension stance.Management can say what they like now,including a pay cut for the ''over paid Atcos'',(Mr B's words).The union have got little choice but to just accept it.They have no power,or say anymore.
Well for the moment the pay talks cover NSL and NERL under one umbrella.
Perhaps giving NSL staff a separate say in their own pay and conditions,might not be such a bad thing since we have been railroaded by the centres in the past,to fund their own big increases.
It's NERL who are looking for the big cost savings.This has already been done to a large extent in NSL,as it is a much leaner operation.
Yet we hear that the BAA owe NSL £3 million,but NSL aren't persuing them,because it may affect any future contract negotiations.
The union's statement about payfreeze =industrial action ballot is about as threatening as the pension stance.Management can say what they like now,including a pay cut for the ''over paid Atcos'',(Mr B's words).The union have got little choice but to just accept it.They have no power,or say anymore.
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if NATS can't sort out the pay rise by 31 March 09, then pull the AAVA agreement effective from 1st April 09.
Flow the traffic if we are forced to bandbox due staffing and watch the world go by.
Simple as....
Enough is enough. We have been taking crap from management these last few years, as the to$$ers in charge treat us (ATCOs, ATCEs, ATSAs, admin, et al) with disdain whilst pi$$ing away money on non-jobs and useless functions that reward people for doing their jobs!
Union - sort it out. grow a pair and tell management to wake up and smell the coffee. Yes many people are struggling in this recession but let's remember many are not. Don't let the glass half-full brigrade derail a fair pay deal, especially since NATS are going to make a nice profit this year and possibly pay dividends
Flow the traffic if we are forced to bandbox due staffing and watch the world go by.
Simple as....
Enough is enough. We have been taking crap from management these last few years, as the to$$ers in charge treat us (ATCOs, ATCEs, ATSAs, admin, et al) with disdain whilst pi$$ing away money on non-jobs and useless functions that reward people for doing their jobs!
Union - sort it out. grow a pair and tell management to wake up and smell the coffee. Yes many people are struggling in this recession but let's remember many are not. Don't let the glass half-full brigrade derail a fair pay deal, especially since NATS are going to make a nice profit this year and possibly pay dividends
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Communication
So....
Not only to Prospect fail to communicate to their members, it appears they have trouble communicating within to each other - Mickey Mouse.
Undoubtedly the pay debate will drag on for ages and finally we will get far from 4.8% + 1%. It's about time we stood up to PB and the gang and got the going rate as posted previously in this thread.
GMWTB
Not only to Prospect fail to communicate to their members, it appears they have trouble communicating within to each other - Mickey Mouse.
Undoubtedly the pay debate will drag on for ages and finally we will get far from 4.8% + 1%. It's about time we stood up to PB and the gang and got the going rate as posted previously in this thread.
GMWTB
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"It's about time we stood up to PB and the gang .."
Q - and without Union sanction/backing to keep it 'official', how are you going to do that?
A - you're not going to. The two Unions are sh*t/weak/spineless at senior level, (as are the majority of the members), as has been ably demonstrated with the pension issue. The only ones who talk about walking out or doing something more than just talk are the few 'keyboard warriors' on here, and we are not enough on our own.
At our workplace it doesn't happen, and it isn't going to either. They mumble and grumble day in, day out, but they all value their jobs, and the money, far too much to put themselves or their careers on the line, no matter how bad things get. Just like the rest of NATS.
A very sad state of affairs, but thats how it is.
Q - and without Union sanction/backing to keep it 'official', how are you going to do that?
A - you're not going to. The two Unions are sh*t/weak/spineless at senior level, (as are the majority of the members), as has been ably demonstrated with the pension issue. The only ones who talk about walking out or doing something more than just talk are the few 'keyboard warriors' on here, and we are not enough on our own.
At our workplace it doesn't happen, and it isn't going to either. They mumble and grumble day in, day out, but they all value their jobs, and the money, far too much to put themselves or their careers on the line, no matter how bad things get. Just like the rest of NATS.
A very sad state of affairs, but thats how it is.
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Whit Hart
Not all Unions are "spineless", nor are their members I remember being on strike for over 6 weeks, along with most EGCC/LATCC/SCATCC etc ATCAS over a renaged pay deal...guess what
WE GOT THE PAY RISE
Not all Unions are "spineless", nor are their members I remember being on strike for over 6 weeks, along with most EGCC/LATCC/SCATCC etc ATCAS over a renaged pay deal...guess what
WE GOT THE PAY RISE