UK - NATS Pay negotiations - latest rumours
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The unfortunate ethos of this company of thinking that cutting ATSA jobs is the best and easiest way to save money is very short sighted. By the very nature of the job we are there to ASSIST with anything that aids the controllers to carry out their job and are (from my own unit's perspective) very much an integral part of the TEAM. I think the recent adverse weather at UK airports has probably shown how valuable good ATSAs are. Only the other night I took about 30+ phone calls from various AO trying to work out when they could get the 25 odd DIVs back to where they needed to be for AM rotations, not to mention Royal Mail wanting their bags of post in the right depot, while also constantly correcting the bollocks that SAMOS was churning out (the sensors don't like the cold, great for a wx system). I'm sure most ATCO's would not want to be up there on their own doing all this as well as their primary task. It's normally only the bean counters that miss this point. But it's hardly surprising when senior HR people aren't really aware your job exists (as I found out when one was speaking to me in our TWR kitchen) "Are you an ATCO? A trainee? An ATSA ah yes one of them" (with an incredibly puzzled look) No wonder Operational staff has zero time for the empire that is Human Remains but that is a new thread altogether!
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"No wonder Operational staff has zero time for the empire that is Human Remains "
maybe we should be looking at removing a few of these, too? (Just to keep things fair and above board, of course!
)
and if it did happen, my sick sense of humour thinks it would also be rather entertaining to sit in on the redundancy interview..
autothrottle
sorry old bean, but the SAMOS, like the weather itself, is inevitable, and its headed in your direction. You know it makes sense!
maybe we should be looking at removing a few of these, too? (Just to keep things fair and above board, of course!
)and if it did happen, my sick sense of humour thinks it would also be rather entertaining to sit in on the redundancy interview..
autothrottle
sorry old bean, but the SAMOS, like the weather itself, is inevitable, and its headed in your direction. You know it makes sense!
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Just found this on NATS's website:
The PPP was much criticised - was it a success?
The PPP, or Public Private Partnership, was established in July 2001 and strengthened in 2003 following a financial restructuring prompted by the financial downturn following 9/11. NATS is now owned 49% by the Government; 42% by The Airline Group, a consortium of UK airlines; 4% by BAA and 5% by an Employee Share Trust. The company has just reported its fifth successive year of profit. In the last year we have continued to maintain our strong safety record, whilst handling record numbers of flights. NATS-attributable delays have been reduced from more than two minutes at the time of the PPP to less than 27 seconds this year. The company has a 10-year, £1bn investment programme. Within 10 years of the PPP (2011) we will have achieved our two-centre strategy and delivered the majority of our £1bn investment programme, due for completion in 2013.
Funny how to the outside world we are strong financially and PPP seen as a success. However, a quick log on to natsnet or speak to any employee and they will tell you differently. Is this another 'clue' to the scare tactics being used to staff over pensions and pay yet the reality and the impression to the outside world is very different.
Now come on Prospect.... do the right thing and give your members reason to pay the £15.30 a month and feel 'adequately' represented. mistake was made with the pension, lets learn from it and start playing hardball.
With regards to dropping the CTC Empire... if we can appranatly cut the frontline, safety critical roles of ATSA and Engineer... surely we can cut CTC to half it size. Less ops staff means less 'support staff' and ideally a hell of a lot less managers and top execs!!!
The PPP was much criticised - was it a success?
The PPP, or Public Private Partnership, was established in July 2001 and strengthened in 2003 following a financial restructuring prompted by the financial downturn following 9/11. NATS is now owned 49% by the Government; 42% by The Airline Group, a consortium of UK airlines; 4% by BAA and 5% by an Employee Share Trust. The company has just reported its fifth successive year of profit. In the last year we have continued to maintain our strong safety record, whilst handling record numbers of flights. NATS-attributable delays have been reduced from more than two minutes at the time of the PPP to less than 27 seconds this year. The company has a 10-year, £1bn investment programme. Within 10 years of the PPP (2011) we will have achieved our two-centre strategy and delivered the majority of our £1bn investment programme, due for completion in 2013.
Funny how to the outside world we are strong financially and PPP seen as a success. However, a quick log on to natsnet or speak to any employee and they will tell you differently. Is this another 'clue' to the scare tactics being used to staff over pensions and pay yet the reality and the impression to the outside world is very different.
Now come on Prospect.... do the right thing and give your members reason to pay the £15.30 a month and feel 'adequately' represented. mistake was made with the pension, lets learn from it and start playing hardball.
With regards to dropping the CTC Empire... if we can appranatly cut the frontline, safety critical roles of ATSA and Engineer... surely we can cut CTC to half it size. Less ops staff means less 'support staff' and ideally a hell of a lot less managers and top execs!!!
The ATSA thing is not new - management have been trying to be rid of them for decades - a desire that I have never comprehended. An experienced ATSA is far more use in the ops room than one of the new breed of young rapid promotion ATCOs ('cos no-one else wants the promotion). Surely it would make more sense from a cost, safety and service provision point of view to have ops rooms populated by relatively inexpensive ATSAs than to get rid of them and requiring more ATCOs to do the tasks.
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Kinglouis -
Reading your post, it comes across that NATS management are insinuating that PPP has caused NATS to become better in it's job.
and
Whereas the main reason is that we have been slowly clawing back operational manpower to the correct levels (still not there yet), which were decimated a couple of decades ago when NATS binned a lot of operational staff due to an ill conceived knee jerk attempt to save money.
It's a shame that NATS never learns from the past, as is demonstrated time and time again by the stop/start training policy.
How long into the future are we going to be suffering after the up and coming redundancies take effect?
Reading your post, it comes across that NATS management are insinuating that PPP has caused NATS to become better in it's job.
NATS-attributable delays have been reduced from more than two minutes at the time of the PPP to less than 27 seconds this year...
In the last year we have continued to maintain our strong safety record, whilst handling record numbers of flights.
It's a shame that NATS never learns from the past, as is demonstrated time and time again by the stop/start training policy.
How long into the future are we going to be suffering after the up and coming redundancies take effect?
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whilst I agree in principle with dan dare's post, I cannot help but think to myself 'when did the ATCOs ever (officially) stand up and say that they needed the ATSAs for support'? (answers on the back of a stamp with a whitewash brush)
I'm not pointing the finger at the ppruners on here who advocate their support for the Assistants, but more at the rank and file ATCO membership at the coalface.
Unfortunately, its the same old story; ATCOs who have a lot to say, (yeah, I support the ATSAs, we need 'em when the sh*t hits the fan, you know.. blah blah, .. erm wots on channel 401?) but no action to back it up.
A bit like the pension issue. And the pay negotiations. So, when the sh*t really does hit the fan, the ATCOs will end up doing the tasks which the ATSAs could have helped you with. (BTW, I cant help but wince when I watch the EGLL newbies struggling with the GMP overload. Too proud to admit its getting a bit much, and too ignorant to even consider asking the Assistant to their right for a bit of support - with or without fckn EFPS!))
I expect the Management to be booking front row seats to watch Prospect's 'ignition' of the (talcum) powder which they have kept so dry for you over the years. I'm sure they will have a (very small) glass of water to hand in order to put out the raging fire that will follow
Its probably too late for things to change for a lot of the support grades - its all downhill from here on in folks! -, and the redundancies and cuts will continue, BUT when it comes to the ATCO issues, if you guys really think you carry some clout, then you need to start wielding it about a bit - and fckn quickly.
I'm not pointing the finger at the ppruners on here who advocate their support for the Assistants, but more at the rank and file ATCO membership at the coalface.
Unfortunately, its the same old story; ATCOs who have a lot to say, (yeah, I support the ATSAs, we need 'em when the sh*t hits the fan, you know.. blah blah, .. erm wots on channel 401?) but no action to back it up.
A bit like the pension issue. And the pay negotiations. So, when the sh*t really does hit the fan, the ATCOs will end up doing the tasks which the ATSAs could have helped you with. (BTW, I cant help but wince when I watch the EGLL newbies struggling with the GMP overload. Too proud to admit its getting a bit much, and too ignorant to even consider asking the Assistant to their right for a bit of support - with or without fckn EFPS!))
I expect the Management to be booking front row seats to watch Prospect's 'ignition' of the (talcum) powder which they have kept so dry for you over the years. I'm sure they will have a (very small) glass of water to hand in order to put out the raging fire that will follow
Its probably too late for things to change for a lot of the support grades - its all downhill from here on in folks! -, and the redundancies and cuts will continue, BUT when it comes to the ATCO issues, if you guys really think you carry some clout, then you need to start wielding it about a bit - and fckn quickly.
Last edited by White Hart; 12th Feb 2009 at 17:57.
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Here's something to try when you've got a spare 5 minutes.
Log onto NATSNET
Look up your name in the 'People finder'
Then click on your immediate Managers name, and when their name comes up, click on their immediate manager, and keep going until you can't go any further.
I had 9 names.
Go figure
Log onto NATSNET
Look up your name in the 'People finder'
Then click on your immediate Managers name, and when their name comes up, click on their immediate manager, and keep going until you can't go any further.
I had 9 names.
Go figure
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Just a small point. The reason that 'they' can cut ATSA jobs is a (vey short) downturn in traffic, and new tools like IFACTS and EFD. They are taking the opportunity that has been handed to them by greedy (w)( bankers 
and grabbed on! CTC staff will need to be maintained in many areas to support / create future tools, they do not drop out of thin air! Any attempt to degrade pensions further should result in an immediate strike ballot.
The way forward should be a joint ATSA/engineers/ATCO union. The post above is correct though. There are still ATCO's around that can walk on water, I have been insulated from this 'practice' until recently when a job change put be back in ATCO land. Some (few) don't speak to ATSA'a at all - unless they want something! I will take great pleasure in handing them a headset and escoring them to the opsroom in the coming months
and grabbed on! CTC staff will need to be maintained in many areas to support / create future tools, they do not drop out of thin air! Any attempt to degrade pensions further should result in an immediate strike ballot.The way forward should be a joint ATSA/engineers/ATCO union. The post above is correct though. There are still ATCO's around that can walk on water, I have been insulated from this 'practice' until recently when a job change put be back in ATCO land. Some (few) don't speak to ATSA'a at all - unless they want something! I will take great pleasure in handing them a headset and escoring them to the opsroom in the coming months
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Minesapint: "CTC staff will need to be maintained in many areas to support / create future tools, they do not drop out of thin air!"
If that is the case why not transfer the apparently unrequired ATSA's to CTC to work on said projects. In doing so ATCO's may start to believe the people creating our future tools have an understanding of what is done on the shop floor, which by reading previous threads clearly isn't the case at the present time.
Nobody wants to see VR's at any time, but NATS will be shooting themselves squarely in the foot if they allow groups of people with years, if not decades, of hands-on-experience to walk out of the door.
A quick question on what this thread is actually about..... If we do manage to get a payrise agreed would it be back dated to 1st jan 2009???
If that is the case why not transfer the apparently unrequired ATSA's to CTC to work on said projects. In doing so ATCO's may start to believe the people creating our future tools have an understanding of what is done on the shop floor, which by reading previous threads clearly isn't the case at the present time.
Nobody wants to see VR's at any time, but NATS will be shooting themselves squarely in the foot if they allow groups of people with years, if not decades, of hands-on-experience to walk out of the door.
A quick question on what this thread is actually about..... If we do manage to get a payrise agreed would it be back dated to 1st jan 2009???
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(yeah, I support the ATSAs, we need 'em when the sh*t hits the fan, you know.. blah blah, .. erm wots on channel 401?)
jonno79 - Yes any pay agreement (cross ALL your fingers) will be backdated to January 1st 2009.
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If that is the case why not transfer the apparently unrequired ATSA's to CTC to work on said projects. In doing so ATCO's may start to believe the people creating our future tools have an understanding of what is done on the shop floor, which by reading previous threads clearly isn't the case at the present time.
BD
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Plans to move CATC to CTC to fill the vacant void post (CTC) staff culling. (Note; these are plans seen by some and might be senior managers making future provisions). I assume is all well with the college moving into new accommodation in the Bournemouth area?
If that becomes reality, expect a 'Park n Ride' scheme as the CTC car park is rather Small!
Am I barmy? No, just passing on rumour substantiated as per this forum!
If that becomes reality, expect a 'Park n Ride' scheme as the CTC car park is rather Small!
Am I barmy? No, just passing on rumour substantiated as per this forum!
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jonno79 asked
When NATS staff voted to accept the pension scheme changes they also voted to be screw for ever more.
I doubt there will be a pay rise for staff this year or next year. Even when the economy turns around I expect it will be extremely difficult for us to get a pay rise until Management absolutely have to give us one.
It is the duty of the Board to maximise profits for the shareholders and that is what they are doing. It would be naive in the extreme to expect these leopards to suddenly change their spots.
A quick question on what this thread is actually about..... If we do manage to get a payrise agreed would it be back dated to 1st jan 2009???
I doubt there will be a pay rise for staff this year or next year. Even when the economy turns around I expect it will be extremely difficult for us to get a pay rise until Management absolutely have to give us one.
It is the duty of the Board to maximise profits for the shareholders and that is what they are doing. It would be naive in the extreme to expect these leopards to suddenly change their spots.
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Mr Jones
The Union did a sterling job over the past 10-15 years getting wages up to a comparable level with European counterparts (and I might add, up to a proper 'going rate'). Unfortunately they seem to have lost their way of late.
Like you, I have a niggling worry in the back of my mind that over the next few years, we are going to fall well behind the market rate again, both in monetary terms and in Ts&Cs.
It is Managements function to maximise profits - the very fact that we have shown them that we do not have a stomach for a fight is more power to their elbow to shaft us
From the D&G forum
http://www.pprune.org/d-g-reporting-...tc-strike.html
At least some people still have balls
The Union did a sterling job over the past 10-15 years getting wages up to a comparable level with European counterparts (and I might add, up to a proper 'going rate'). Unfortunately they seem to have lost their way of late.
Like you, I have a niggling worry in the back of my mind that over the next few years, we are going to fall well behind the market rate again, both in monetary terms and in Ts&Cs.
It is Managements function to maximise profits - the very fact that we have shown them that we do not have a stomach for a fight is more power to their elbow to shaft us
From the D&G forum
http://www.pprune.org/d-g-reporting-...tc-strike.html
At least some people still have balls
Last edited by anotherthing; 13th Feb 2009 at 11:37.
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Screw em for all you can get
Make sure it is backdated.
Threaten to resign en-masse and move to the Sandpit
Point out it takes large amounts of money/ time to train and to stop faffing.
Signed
A signalman.
p.s. Hire a decent PR to do your strike posturing for you. Otherwise you will be "wrong side".
Good luck.
Make sure it is backdated.
Threaten to resign en-masse and move to the Sandpit
Point out it takes large amounts of money/ time to train and to stop faffing.
Signed
A signalman.
p.s. Hire a decent PR to do your strike posturing for you. Otherwise you will be "wrong side".
Good luck.
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A high number of 'future tools' developers are currently ATCO's, the others on the ATC side are T&S 'ATSA' grades, so how would ATSA's fill that need? BD is quite correct, systems development is a whole new world and not everyone can do it! My view: ATCO's go and control aircraft. Correct selection and training for ATC grades in systems development - use the DSS's as a good example of ATCO's replaced by ATSA's in a systems role. Engineers should stick to engineering and stop assuming that they fully understand ATC requirements. In my experience and with the best will in the word, they rarely do!
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Minesapint -
I think there is a place in 'future tools development' for current ATCOs... otherwise we will just get the farce that is AMAN over and over again.
EFD/EFPS is the next big worry in TC - we can see it being forced in even though it may well prove to be hugely inferior to present day operations.
I think there is a place in 'future tools development' for current ATCOs... otherwise we will just get the farce that is AMAN over and over again.
EFD/EFPS is the next big worry in TC - we can see it being forced in even though it may well prove to be hugely inferior to present day operations.
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Dont forget not to create a blocking strip.
Do they not test NAS after a DD&C rather than wait til the morning rush?
Expect some people will be getting bonuses for N17 idrop, yet more wasted money on bonuses for managers for things that dont work properly on implementation
Do they not test NAS after a DD&C rather than wait til the morning rush?
Expect some people will be getting bonuses for N17 idrop, yet more wasted money on bonuses for managers for things that dont work properly on implementation