Me Me Me Me

First off - I intend to vote "NO", So nothing I'm about to say is intended to support the proposal....

All of you (and the guys doing the same on the Intranet forums) are basing your calculations on how much you stand to lose out on a slightly unrealistic assumption: the modeller is based on the Actuarial standard prediction of pay rises, set at RPI + 1.5%

There's two chances of us ever getting a pay rise of RPI + 1.5% in the future... Slim and none, erring toward 'none'. From memory, in 2005 we got an increase of RPI + 0.6%, but all other recent rises have fallen within the proposed cap. If that were to be the same trend going forward, then you would not lose out at all on your future pension. As I said, that's not to try and promote the deal... just to focus on the reality of it.

I've also spoken to people who attended a pre-briefing of top managers and TU reps... they came back converted to "yes" voters by the TU presentation. I remain unmoved, but I look forward to hearing what they have to say. I predict it will be the doomsday scenario painted: "If you don't accept this, they will just impose something worse". I don't buy it.

mr.777

Having just returned from 3 weeks leave, I was pretty disgusted to put it mildly to read the Union circular that was sent out regarding the pension proposals. Negotiation was a total waste of time it seems...thye are getting f**k all out of me apart from a big fat NO vote.
I too look forward to one of these briefings where I'll be told how much better off I am under the new scheme, even though there is a tool on the HR website which shows you how much you're going to lose out!!
My only hope is that Barron is there to field some questions about how exactly he manages to come out of this smelling of roses while the rest of us bend over and get royally f***ed by NATS management.

Jobby Wheecher

Well said PPrune Radar !!

Pay rise has been +147% over the last 18 years (not 10). But in that 18 yrs RPI went up by 76% and RPI+0.5% went up by 96%. (Read the earlier posts on this)

As I see it we have 2 options.

1 - Give in and accept that it is our problem to deal with the 'deficit'. Kiss bye-bye to any future negotiatiing strength. They have effectively torn up your terms and conditions and Deed of TRUST - do you TRUST them with a worthless 15 year Memo of Understanding ?

2 - Dump the problem firmly with those responsible. The government. They privatised us against solid industry advice. They saddled us with £600m debt. They skimmed surplus (about £160m ?) from the pension fund in the good days. They promised us our pensions would be safe. They have the power over the CAA to remove the unrealistic cap on our charges and the cost pass through of pensions. (Somewhat ironically I don't think CAA have such a restriction - judging by the amount THEIR user fees have risen in recent years)

I would suggest that one day of strike action would have all the airlines beating a path to GBs door saying - "you caused it, you bloody fix it".

And if we go bust or are declared insolvent ? I have a feeling the pension is still protected according to the Deed of Trust - remember the Govt are 49% shareholders.

The privatisation was all about reducing the PSBR (Public sector borrowing requirement) - we saved them a measly £0.5bn. Consider the £250bn plus (that is over 10% of annual GDP by the way) that they have just chucked into the nationalisation of Northern Rock and Bradford and Bingley.

The banks are in the $hit because of their own folly.

We are in the $hit because of the Governements folly. Let them suffer the consequences.

PS What do you think will happen if the Tories get in at next election. Do you think they will sort the problem then ? Hell no, they'll just blame the previous bunch, so we better get this previous bunch to fix it .. NOW. We have one chance - vote NO. Take them head on.

Caesartheboogeyman

The last weeks worth of posts on here have been absolutely brilliant. I commend everyone who has provided figures, information regarding ownership/deeds of trust/other current affairs that are relevant.
Thank you and I hope it continues.
Let's stick together.
NO

barstewards

Does anyone yet have an answer from our 'Union' regarding why the AVAA agreement is still in place and why we have not been balloted for strike action since NATS are trying to re-negotiate our pension?

These issues are in the union handbook but that seems to have been thrown away.

Previous posters have raised these two issues but they have not been answered.


Where is my industrial action ballot form as my union says I should have one......


Trust these people at your peril - the rules only seem to be applied when it suits some people..

45 before POL

Point to note.. the cap rpi+0.5 .As many have realised there would be a loss to their pension. Also how is this getting round the transport bill??? Other problems with this are pay is normally negotiated 2/3 years so...what stops them offering a pay rise fo example year 1 rpi +4% year 2 rpi+2% year 3 2% below rpi.....This would be voted in by new Pension schemers as no effect on their pension but ours capped would effectively lose out on all 3 years....just a thought(even if figures unrealistic)

PPRuNe Radar

Any pay increase over RPI +0.5% and I lose out using the calculator. The amount I lose starts at £2000 a year and increases the more the RPI + figure increases (as you would expect). Given that the average pay rise RPI + figure over the last 10 years or so (I am assured by a learned and respected union bod) is RPI +2.5%, then I along with everyone else stand to lose a fair bit of cash which has been hard earned over the years. Cash which is much better in my pocket than the Robber Barron's.

No way !!!

Air.Farce.1

What we need is all the useful info (a lot of it on here) gathered and compiled to counter the management and union proposal. This can then be used to inform all those at various units who dont read this forum. So when they are "briefed" they will be armed with questions and counter proposals, rather than sitting there trying to take it all in and having the fear of God put into them by the "Untouchables"

PPRuNe Radar

Someone asked about the pension holiday amount. According to NATS, it saved £48M over the holiday period.

Couple this with the year on profits made, and there is a lot of money somewhere that could have been used to finance this 'non profit' making companies pension fund when it needs it.

Pre Tax Profits

2004 - £1.8M

2005 - £85.3M

2006 - £80.3M

2007 - £94.4M

2008 - £66.7M


Over the same period, NATS reduced it's debt from £697.6M to £538.1M (a reduction of ~£159M). So we made profits of £328.5M and put £159M in to debt reduction. Allowing some to be taken by the tax man, where did the rest (plus the £48M pension holiday money) go ?

Homo Simpson

VOTE NO!!!!!

This is the chance to tell NATS Management and the Union to get lost.

Too many people get bribed by a few quid or brown nose and cant see what is going on. Too many times we have bent over and taken it without the lube!

NOT THIS TIME!!!!!

Emma1974

To answer Barstewards the following has been quoted from the Union "we have a range of policy and this includes "In order to protect the long term future of CAAPS the BEC shall consider negotiation if required"".

Hial Flyer

I spoke to someone today who had the briefing from the union and seemed to be swaying to the yes side. The briefing seemed to rely heavily on us going bankrupt which we know won't happen.

I can't believe the unions are prepared to sell us down the river.

When this is all done and dusted, and hopefully with a huge NO vote, is it not time we got ourselves a new union who are prepared to fight for the members and not just accept what management have to offer.

Air.Farce.1

Prospect Union fights to save pensions

Unions to fight BAA pension cuts

10/10/2007
Union leaders representing thousands of airport workers at BAA have told the company's chief executive, Stephen Nelson, that they will fight plans to change the final salary pension scheme.
National officers from Unite, PCS and Prospect met Mr Nelson on Wednesday. They made clear their unified opposition to the proposed changes which will see the final salary pension scheme closed to new entrants from December 1.
Hands off workers’ pensions, Prospect tells Ofgem
26/09/2008
Prospect, the union for 21,000 energy professionals, has warned the electricity regulator not to intervene in staff pensions as part of its current distribution price review. The union was responding to an Ofgem consultation paper, Price Control Pension Principles

News Story

Sale of air traffic control sparks new sell-off row

10/07/2006
Ministers have been warned that any sale of the Airline Group’s stake in National Air Traffic Services would reignite the political row over its part-privatisation in 2001.
Prospect, representing 3,500 air traffic controllers and engineers at NATS, said any part-sale of the airlines’ 42% stake would contradict the guarantee made by the Airline Group when it bought its stake that it would operate on a ‘not for commercial return’ basis.

Prospect General Secretary Paul Noon said: "Speculation that the Airline Group is considering selling its stake, just five years after the privatisation of NATS, underlines the concerns the union raised at the time of sell-off about safety standards and investment.

"If the Airline Group or parts of it wish to sell their stake then the government should buy it back. There must be no ‘For Sale’ sign over NATS.

"The purpose of NATS is to provide a safe service for the travelling public, not to be a cash cow for its owners. That is the basis on which the public-private partnership was established five years ago, backed up by guarantees to parliament."

Given the growth in air traffic and other major European initiatives, the UK air traffic management system needs stability and investment to provide a safe, efficient and integrated service, said Noon.

Prospect is writing to the Secretary of State for Transport, Douglas Alexander, raising its concerns. It wants an early meeting to seek assurances that the government will boost its 49% stake in NATS if necessary, and restate its commitment to continued investment in the business.

The Airline Group is a consortium of seven UK airlines: British Airways, bmi British Midland, Virgin Atlantic, Thomsonfly, Monarch, easyJet and My Travel. They own 41% of NATS
BA chief Willie Walsh reckons at least 30 airlines will go bust before XMAS. Warning: 30 airlines will go bust this year - News & Advice, Travel - The Independent

At least 3 of the above group could "fold their wings" any time given the current recession

And dont rule out BA ......

BA has already unveiled a series of measures designed to counter a crippling rise in its jet fuel bills, which are expected to total £3bn this year, 50 per cent more than in 2007.
Last month, it revealed profits during the first three months of the year were 88 per cent lower than in the same period last year and warned price increases and cuts to capacity were inevitable.

BAA owns 4% of NATS. They are struggling and will struggle even more when they have to sell off EGKK and EGP*, to reduce their monopoly.
BAA, the cash-strapped operator of seven UK airports, plunged to a £51m operating loss in the first quarter of this year, hit by rocketing security costs and £24m of one-off expenses aimed at ensuring a "smooth" opening of Terminal 5 at Heathrow. BAA's profits descend on back of rocketing security costs - Telegraph
The BAA group, is now 61pc owned by Spanish infrastructure group Ferrovial who paid £10 Billion and who are now struggling to finance this loan payment.


I suspect NATS management can feel NATS slipping through their greasy fingers.......

Who the hell are these union guys anyway? If they were representing the miners in the 80's they would have been lynched by now

MrJones

Hial Flyer

In the event of a No vote I would imagine NTUS officers would consider their positions.

Do NATS management have a Plan B in case of a No vote?

Cuddles

I'm 9K a year worse off, my projected pension pot will be about £650 - 700K. If NATS hand that over to me NOW to invest as I deem fit for my own retirement, I'll sign on the dotted line to work for them without a peep, until my 60th birthday.

radar707

Got the following reply from my MP today:

Dear radar707
Thank you for your email.

It raises very important issues and I have forwarded it to the Minister
so that they can be very fully considered. When I receive a reply I
will of course let you know.

DC10RealMan

I spoke to a senior(ish) union person this afternoon and was told that there is no Plan B

Air.Farce.1

No plan B ...

I refer the honourable gentleman to my previous post

"Dont rule out NATS going full circle and becoming fully Nationalised again"

Iaacei

2 points,

1) Why isn't the issue of the pension being closed to new starters being given more air time here?

The RPI+.5 and the SMART pension are very much minor issues compared to the consequences of closing the scheme.

For example, imagine the implications in 10-15 years time when members of the proposed new scheme out number existing members! Where do you think your negotiating powers will be then?

If exisiting members will be £5k or so out of pocket due to RPI+x and SMART the consequences of the majority being in a different scheme will far out way the loss from the former.

Suspiciously looks to me like the RPI & SMART elements are there as optional for Management and are to be used during the subsequent negotiation. I.e. ok we'll drop the RPI & SMART if you agree to a new scheme to new members.

Once agreed, kiss goodbye to final salary if you have 10-15 years more to go!

This needs more discussion please!!


2) Briefings are pointless, NATS mgmt & Unions have made up their mind.
Simple choice, unless members refuse to be brainwashed at the doom n gloom breifings your pension will go the same way as Alstoms!

Caesartheboogeyman

I will take the smart pension if they ditch the new scheme and capping of the current scheme. that is the only way they are getting a yes out of me.

NO