NATS Pensions (Split from Pay 2009 thread)
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I am well aware that without operational ATC staff I don't have a job. It is quite clear however that many operational ATC staff don't think the opposite. Unless you can control air traffic with no equipment, no building, without anything that has to be bought and paid for and are willing to do so without any pay or pension then you also need the non operational staff.
However most non operational jobs can be outsourced and it is also possible for projects to be cancelled or postponed so non operational staff do not enjoy the same job security. Whilst pensions are a big deal for all staff they aren't as big a deal as having a job. That is the background to the union's position and why they aren't necessarily fighting as hard as you'd like to keep the pension scheme.
As for sticking together I would point out that it was the operational staff with good job security who took the blood money to change the redundancy scheme to the detriment of those likely to be made redundant and I didn't see any operational ATC staff fighting against the abolition of the 40 year rule once an excuse was made to keep it for ATC staff.
However most non operational jobs can be outsourced and it is also possible for projects to be cancelled or postponed so non operational staff do not enjoy the same job security. Whilst pensions are a big deal for all staff they aren't as big a deal as having a job. That is the background to the union's position and why they aren't necessarily fighting as hard as you'd like to keep the pension scheme.
As for sticking together I would point out that it was the operational staff with good job security who took the blood money to change the redundancy scheme to the detriment of those likely to be made redundant and I didn't see any operational ATC staff fighting against the abolition of the 40 year rule once an excuse was made to keep it for ATC staff.
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I'm not being divisive, merely defending my position and my PENSION. I didnt come on here and start having a pop at CTC staff, I think you'll find it was the other way around.
If you feel your job is more important than my pension then fine, vote yes. That is your prerogative....I will similarly exercise my democratic right to protect my pension by voting no.
I do however agree that there is no point continuing with company in-fighting...why make Barron's job easier for him???
If you feel your job is more important than my pension then fine, vote yes. That is your prerogative....I will similarly exercise my democratic right to protect my pension by voting no.
I do however agree that there is no point continuing with company in-fighting...why make Barron's job easier for him???
Last edited by mr.777; 12th Oct 2008 at 11:45.
!
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To quote Eglynt...
"There seems to be a great deal of misunderstanding about not for profit. Yes NATS makes a profit but almost all of the profit is ploughed back into the business either by paying off loans or as investment."
NATS paid off a loan this year. It was for £65Million made by the Airline Group after 9/11. It was an indefinite loan at 12% interest per annum!! The redemption penalty was £16 Million.
A crafty way for the shareholders to get a 'profit' without the staff getting bonuses!
It's all in the Annual Report and accounts.
"There seems to be a great deal of misunderstanding about not for profit. Yes NATS makes a profit but almost all of the profit is ploughed back into the business either by paying off loans or as investment."
NATS paid off a loan this year. It was for £65Million made by the Airline Group after 9/11. It was an indefinite loan at 12% interest per annum!! The redemption penalty was £16 Million.
A crafty way for the shareholders to get a 'profit' without the staff getting bonuses!
It's all in the Annual Report and accounts.
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The loans repaid were not to the Airline Group. The two shareholders repaid were BAA and the Government. The Airline Group was not able or prepared to put up any extra money when NATS was in trouble after 9/11. Perhaps not surprisingly the two parties who did put up the money when nobody else would ensured the terms of the loan got them a good return.
Having got such a good return last time I can only imagine what a good deal the government will expect the next time it has to lend NATS money.
Having got such a good return last time I can only imagine what a good deal the government will expect the next time it has to lend NATS money.
Last edited by eglnyt; 12th Oct 2008 at 22:49.
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To find / write to your MP
TheyWorkForYou.com: Are your MPs and Peers working for you in the UK's Parliament?
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No atcos = no nats.
END OF STORY.
if there was industrial action, every union member eligible for ballot should ride with the majority.
scabs, be they office or operational are unnaceptable within nats union members.
NATIONAL AIR TRAFFIC SERVICES. with noone who could move AIR TRAFFIC. I can't see anyone paying route charges then.I certainly wouldn't.
NO ATCOS=NO STARBUCKS
NO ATCOS-NO WASTE OF MONEY BACKSLAPPING AWARD CEREMONIES.
Do you really think that airlines pay charges for the priviledge of having someone who knows the benefit of a double mocha choca with a triple twist of vanilla asscream...........no...........didnt think so.
END OF STORY.
if there was industrial action, every union member eligible for ballot should ride with the majority.
scabs, be they office or operational are unnaceptable within nats union members.
NATIONAL AIR TRAFFIC SERVICES. with noone who could move AIR TRAFFIC. I can't see anyone paying route charges then.I certainly wouldn't.
NO ATCOS=NO STARBUCKS
NO ATCOS-NO WASTE OF MONEY BACKSLAPPING AWARD CEREMONIES.
Do you really think that airlines pay charges for the priviledge of having someone who knows the benefit of a double mocha choca with a triple twist of vanilla asscream...........no...........didnt think so.
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I am going to a pension briefing in the morning and am going to listen to what is said hoping that my questions are answered during the briefing.
We really don't need this willy waving operational/non operational stuff. not this month anyway.
with no operational staff there is no company, with no NONoperational staff, the company grinds to a halt.
We need each other.
Maybe not thousands of each other, but a few at least.
It comes down to.........who would you rather hurt, each other or the management?
We really don't need this willy waving operational/non operational stuff. not this month anyway.
with no operational staff there is no company, with no NONoperational staff, the company grinds to a halt.
We need each other.
Maybe not thousands of each other, but a few at least.
It comes down to.........who would you rather hurt, each other or the management?
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and it also looks like us operational types are going to have to carry the can on this one as the office side of the company are far more interested in commenting on photo of the day than using their noodles for any common sense.
WE are the employees, we make this company... ALL OF US. if you are too damn stupid to realise it and if we let management go on this one we are buggered and your office job security most likely will not be there in 2 years time as they will have outsourced the majority.
I can bet you all a pretty pound that as that **** baron is due to jump ship next march we will not see any more public appearances from this arsehole... you can take your barstool sessions and stick 'em where the sun dont shine.
my misses works for a large company in an 'office' role and to hear her view on all this is a sobering thought as she thinks in different ways to us ATCO's.... we dont always agree with eachother, for some reason she seems not to like the term 'office monkey'
but she still thinks we need to ALL stand up and fight for our pension.
I also hear that during the pay negotiations that management are asking us to give back 6 days a year for £2k.... and thats a one off payment. if we give in to this pension thing, you can expect way more of this stripping of our T&C's in the coming years.... but hey, why would that bother someone at the CTC who doesnt know the difference between a C152 and aC130. apparantly it only seems to be the ops side of the company that will get f****d over as you all will just drink coffee, forward emails, bury your heads in the sand about pensions as no one there has yet to show any balls oh and have some more meetings about meetings in expensive hotels.
If this gets pushed through, my personal view is that i will be giving back my 2nd sector that i do for the company for FREE, ojti, lce etc etc.... and the next time some office types appear and the GS asks if I can spend my break answering their questions, or on a very, very rare occasion they are there to plug in... the answer im afraid, that in the past has ALWAYS been a yes is a NO.
i will turn up to work, do my job and spend as much time doing the bare minimal as possible, which is not in my nature, but i am just not willing to do the company any favours anymore. lets see how well the AC units tick along when people stop with the goodwill acts, i.e, doing above MUR for free.
OK, my rant over. apologies if i offend, but this has all really pissed me off. if anyone can show me anything against what i have said, i am more than willing to take it on board and apologise if necessary.
Union meeting tomorrow.... not holding my breath.
WE are the employees, we make this company... ALL OF US. if you are too damn stupid to realise it and if we let management go on this one we are buggered and your office job security most likely will not be there in 2 years time as they will have outsourced the majority.
I can bet you all a pretty pound that as that **** baron is due to jump ship next march we will not see any more public appearances from this arsehole... you can take your barstool sessions and stick 'em where the sun dont shine.
my misses works for a large company in an 'office' role and to hear her view on all this is a sobering thought as she thinks in different ways to us ATCO's.... we dont always agree with eachother, for some reason she seems not to like the term 'office monkey'
but she still thinks we need to ALL stand up and fight for our pension.I also hear that during the pay negotiations that management are asking us to give back 6 days a year for £2k.... and thats a one off payment. if we give in to this pension thing, you can expect way more of this stripping of our T&C's in the coming years.... but hey, why would that bother someone at the CTC who doesnt know the difference between a C152 and aC130. apparantly it only seems to be the ops side of the company that will get f****d over as you all will just drink coffee, forward emails, bury your heads in the sand about pensions as no one there has yet to show any balls oh and have some more meetings about meetings in expensive hotels.
If this gets pushed through, my personal view is that i will be giving back my 2nd sector that i do for the company for FREE, ojti, lce etc etc.... and the next time some office types appear and the GS asks if I can spend my break answering their questions, or on a very, very rare occasion they are there to plug in... the answer im afraid, that in the past has ALWAYS been a yes is a NO.
i will turn up to work, do my job and spend as much time doing the bare minimal as possible, which is not in my nature, but i am just not willing to do the company any favours anymore. lets see how well the AC units tick along when people stop with the goodwill acts, i.e, doing above MUR for free.
OK, my rant over. apologies if i offend, but this has all really pissed me off. if anyone can show me anything against what i have said, i am more than willing to take it on board and apologise if necessary.
Union meeting tomorrow.... not holding my breath.
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Are the CAA also trying to make changes to the pension scheme?
And what about Highlands & Islands who are part of the same scheme?
If HIAL are able to provide for their staff, then why not NATS?
And what about Highlands & Islands who are part of the same scheme?
If HIAL are able to provide for their staff, then why not NATS?
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Ceasar and Kinglouis.
You are an embarassment to your trade and colleagues. If it wasnt for your previous posts which confirm your Bitterness and self indulgence I would swear that your were a mgt plant sent in to divide us such that many wil vote 'Yes' just to clip the wings of the greedy and selfish ATCOs.
Not me, I respect all in this company. Whilst we are having a quiz Kinglouis how about the difference between NAS, SFS, SIDE, WFD, WDM, EFPS, CCDSr, TOMS, RIOT.
Oh and last time I looked there were flat screens, starbucks and the like at Swanwick. I work at the CTC and for the record most engineers hate it. A noisy call centre not suited to our type of work. Worked at WD for 16 years and was a friend and colleague. Now, to some, I appear to be an office monkey and enemy of OPs.
You are an embarassment to your trade and colleagues. If it wasnt for your previous posts which confirm your Bitterness and self indulgence I would swear that your were a mgt plant sent in to divide us such that many wil vote 'Yes' just to clip the wings of the greedy and selfish ATCOs.
Not me, I respect all in this company. Whilst we are having a quiz Kinglouis how about the difference between NAS, SFS, SIDE, WFD, WDM, EFPS, CCDSr, TOMS, RIOT.
Oh and last time I looked there were flat screens, starbucks and the like at Swanwick. I work at the CTC and for the record most engineers hate it. A noisy call centre not suited to our type of work. Worked at WD for 16 years and was a friend and colleague. Now, to some, I appear to be an office monkey and enemy of OPs.
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Ceasar
You are an embarassment to your trade and colleagues.
You are an embarassment to your trade and colleagues.
on a more serious note,
Engineers are not office monkeys.
I have never considered engineers non operational staff.
Some of the wizardy that our engineers do is very clever stuff.
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walla, calm down sunshine.
i do not for one minute think engineers are office monkeys.
and i also believe the absolute majority at ctc are well and truly needed and do a good job..... its the head in the sand attitude i cant stand that seems to run thick in there, and not from what i read on here either. just because you are unfortunate enough to be stuck there is crap, we understand that.
i will fight for my pension as i believe ops staff have the power to do so more than office staff as we do so much above our remit, not saying office staff do not, but ours is easier to stop doing, work to what we are paid to do and cause the company the most trouble...... something i would rather NOT do, but am prepared to if they take the piss with my/our pensions and T&C's etc.
i do not for one minute think engineers are office monkeys.
and i also believe the absolute majority at ctc are well and truly needed and do a good job..... its the head in the sand attitude i cant stand that seems to run thick in there, and not from what i read on here either. just because you are unfortunate enough to be stuck there is crap, we understand that.
i will fight for my pension as i believe ops staff have the power to do so more than office staff as we do so much above our remit, not saying office staff do not, but ours is easier to stop doing, work to what we are paid to do and cause the company the most trouble...... something i would rather NOT do, but am prepared to if they take the piss with my/our pensions and T&C's etc.
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Caesar / Kinglouis
Your last comments have restored my faith a little. Thanks. Lets stick together on this one.
Just hearing that the retiring CEO of one of our newly nationalised banks has left with a circa 500K per annum pension. Now who do you think is gonna have to guarentee that? Food for thought eh!
p.s.
Why were senior managers briefed by the union before any other staff
Why was their briefing in a hotel and ours in the canteen area
Your last comments have restored my faith a little. Thanks. Lets stick together on this one.
Just hearing that the retiring CEO of one of our newly nationalised banks has left with a circa 500K per annum pension. Now who do you think is gonna have to guarentee that? Food for thought eh!
p.s.
Why were senior managers briefed by the union before any other staff
Why was their briefing in a hotel and ours in the canteen area
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I don't know anything of a specific plan to buy out a portion of leave entitlement... but I DO know...
1. Staff on personal contracts already had their leave cut upon renewing said contract
2. Fortunes are paid out to operational staff under SOAL (Sale Of Annual Leave). Like it or not, it makes sense for any company to query the sense of this. Some might say a more positive reaction would be to staff all areas fully, so that there was no excuse for everyone not to use their leave
1. Staff on personal contracts already had their leave cut upon renewing said contract
2. Fortunes are paid out to operational staff under SOAL (Sale Of Annual Leave). Like it or not, it makes sense for any company to query the sense of this. Some might say a more positive reaction would be to staff all areas fully, so that there was no excuse for everyone not to use their leave