NC86

Nice to see our union reps doing us proud again!!!!!!!!!!!
As has been said before, Prospect has been very vocal about "One Nats, one pension". What are they playing at?
If this is the best they can come up with I'm stopping my contibutions until we can get a decent union and decent representatives.
There are a worrying amount of our union reps who are middle to senior management. I don't think that the very people who are involved in making company decisions should be the ones who are representing us, as they will always be putting company first.

Air.Farce.1

Exactly that !

zkdli

I was going to add something to the discussion but I know it will be flamed so I will not bother.

kinglouis

so we all voting a big fat NO then???
there is no mention of the big ol' payment holiday they took either... how convenient.
and in 15 years, are we going to be screwed by the newbies on the lesser pension?
once again, the union in bed with the company.... i will go see tomorrow if my union rep is still wearing his 'one nats one pension' pass holder around his neck!!!!
we need to protect our pension and show this to the company. this is the first offer, if we all vote no will they come back with something better???

MrJones

Before you leave the Union remember ONLY UNION MEMBERS WILL GET A VOTE.

250 kts

I think we all need to have some time to digest this announcement. Having spoken to a rep today it would appear that the pension is already in deficit and it is the actuaries who seem to be driving the timescales.

Apparently they would be insisting on a contribution rate of up to around 60% in the near future if no guarantees could be given on the present scheme. I don't think any size of organisation could even consider that as a sensible or achievable goal.

As always, it will no doubt, have been a very difficult negotiation. And remember that is just what it is. You don't always get exactly what you want when it comes to negotiations.

I will wait to see what the rationale is from the union before I decide the course of action I will take. Certainly resigning will not change things one iota at the moment nor at this time will talk of getting rid of leading union figures. After all there is hardly a queue of people volunteering to be even local reps never mind taking on higher office.

The next few weeks will be a time for every one of us to be prepared to learn a bit more about pensions generally before we take knee jerk action. It would appear that the guarantees are in place for the existing scheme members and that new scheme would be significantly better than NATS originally offered.

I think my main concerns at the moment are about:

1) Guarantees if NATS has new owners.

2) Guarantees that the old scheme can not be "out voted" in a few years.

3) Does this really provide the protection NATS are looking for risk wise or will they just come back for more later.

All very worrying but maybe a sign of the economic times we now live in.

I'll go and put my flak jacket on now.

Vampy

But isn't this the point of the financial markets and economies in general? They're always going in peaks and troughs. At the moment we're in a trough. And we've been in troughs before. Things always recover.

That being said, I think 250kts makes some very pertinent points that have thrown up some questions that have markedly been avoided in the 2 statements issued today.

DotMac

250kts - really good and level headed post - I agree - kneejerk reaction will be "no" (It certainly is my kneejerk reaction), but then we're faced with the "what is the alternative?" question.

The questions you raise are really fundamental to whether the offer really is acceptable or not.

I'm genuinely surprised that there is no big "carrot" to encourage acceptance - I would really like to see the pay proposals along side the pension debate and to try and ensure that whatever the pay deal is for 09 that it is delivered prior to the changes to the pension coming into force.

LateStay

I'm sorry, but why should people stop doing AAVAs?
The pensions affect almost everyone in the company, yet you are asking the minority to take a course of action to protect the future of the pension for all. The only way that management will wake up and see what the feeling of the workforce actually is, will be for everyone to take action and I suspect the only way this would happen is the threat ( and follow through if necessary) of strike action.

I, like Caesartheboogeyman will continue doing AAVAs until the union say that we should stop doing them.

anotherthing

DotMac

I understand you being wary over 'Smart Pensions' but the company should have been doing them years ago.

I think it's actually criminally negligent that they have taken until now to do it... as a shareholder I'm not happy that they have been wasting my money for years by not using Smart Pensions!!

Air.Farce.1

How many times do people have to be told......

Stop doing bloody overtime and coming in on your days off sucking up to management.

LateStay
I'm sorry, but why should people stop doing AAVAs?
The pensions affect almost everyone in the company, yet you are asking the minority to take a course of action to protect the future of the pension for all. The only way that management will wake up and see what the feeling of the workforce actually is, will be for everyone to take action and I suspect the only way this would happen is the threat ( and follow through if necessary) of strike action.

I, like Caesartheboogeyman will continue doing AAVAs until the union say that we should stop doing them.

You dont get it do you.. NATS cant operate effectively without overtime. Forget the short term greed and get a life on your days off

VectorLine

When it comes down to it, AAVAs are all about greed.
... makes it sound like ATCOs on the lower points scales are poor. Even the first point of the ACTO 3, band 1 is a decent wage. Greedy b*st*rds.

There will be no NATS strike in 2008 or 2009, mark my words. The AAVA generation will be too sh1t scared of their big mortgages to lose a day or so wages.

VL

Stupendous Man

From Prospect ATCOs' Branch


To all Trade Union Members:



You will all now have seen the joint statement regarding the pension proposals.

We would like to make it clear that there are two parallel consultation processes which will now take place.

The first is a requirement upon NATS to consult with all members of the pension scheme on specific proposed change. NATS and the NATS Trade Union Side will be supporting the process to explain the joint proposal.

The second is a full trade union consultation which will culminate in a ballot of all trade union members by each of the constituent trade union groups.

In order to allow members to make an informed decision the NTUS and NATS will be holding briefings at all units.

The details of these briefings will be notified to you by local unit managers and each one will be formed of two distinct parts, the first part being a joint session with management and the second a trade union briefing for trade union members only which will be conducted by members of the NATS Trade Union Side.

We would urge all members to make every effort to attend one of these briefing sessions.

Nimmer

" What did the union do for us????"

Tony Blair " Our skies are not for sale" Actually they were, but our union said don't worry we won't let that happen.

Backward step, actually our union will let it happen, but we will stop SERCO running NATS, the airline group is a good option ladies and gentlemen they said. BUT DON't WORRY YOUR PENSION IS SAFE AND THE TERMS AND CONDITIONS WON'T CHANGE, they said. Like Lambs to the slaughter we all agreed and believed our union reps knew what they were doing.

A few years later the pension is threatened. " DONT WORRY THEY SAID, ONE NATS ONE PENSION" That is the way and what we will fight for.

What have we here, yet another large backward step, so there will be 2 pension schemes after all. A deal worked on by the hard working reps who have sold us down the river so often that they all have a major shareholding in Hoseasons holidays!!!

ENOUGH ENOUGH. Vote NO, on this offer. Think back to what has happened over the years, in a few years our glorious union reps will agree that the "old" scheme is unsustainable because management has told them so.

That powder is so so dry it is about time that we set it alight,the pension is what we all work for, I will not be happy working alongside colleagues I have shafted and who will out number me in years to come and take delight in closing my pension down.

ONE NATS ONE PENSION IS WHAT I WAS TOLD WHAT I WANT AND WHAT I BELIVE WE SHOULD FIGHT FOR.

hangten

It is nobody else's business but mine whether I work overtime or not. It is nobody else's business other than mine what I consider to be my acceptable work/life balance.

Gonzo

VL,

Speak for yourself.

megaphone25

One Nats One Pension!!!

Hmmm now lets see..... so we fight for one pension and come January the company is forced by the actuaries to start paying a contribution rate of 40ish percent. The airlines will not allow this cost to be passed on and neither will the regulator, so NATS has to foot the bill. Thats got to be near to a 100 million pounds a year in savings needing to be made. Now I know for a fact a certain large unit in Hampshire has struggled to make a 9 million pounds saving in a couple of years, so what chance do they have... none.

Either the company goes bust or they have to start selling bits. First to go will be NSL with its loss making contracts and high pension costs. Now i'm not sure about those covered by the trust promise but the rest of us are knackered as the new owner only has to endeavor!!! to maintain the current scheme. If bits aren't sold the company will go bust, and the government will be called upon to bail us out. They'll probably do it but then its the same situation again new owner will get hold of us and then its new terms and conditions and bye bye pension anyway for alot of us.

Don't be too hasty to slam this new deal because the alternative may not be much better. Get all the info first then get angry if you need to.

Air.Farce.1

You must have a high opinion of yourself sunshine .. ..

lets face it no one else has

Anyway we are all upset, me too

I still fear the worst though

Nimmer

So the government has to bail us out, who then will buy us???

Why do NSL have loss making contracts, who negotiated these contracts???? Its about time the BAA paid the going rate for the NATS expertise, lets call their bluff and see which companies could run ATC at Heathrow/ Gatwick etc.

If Nats goes bust will we all become civil servants again, seem to remember the civil service pension is excellent!!!!!

hold at SATAN

Is our final pension still going to be based on 58ths of our FULL final salary at retirement, or the pensionable part. If the latter, then over 15 years the difference between the two could be over 16% if pay is RPI+1.5% vs cap of RPI+0.5%), i.e. you pension will be based on 58th of 84% of final salary at retirement!