121decimal375

Ive just looked at the calculator, I too will be approx £8K down in my pension payments.

NATS will need to dig deep to be able to afford my yes vote! Unless there is £100K plus they can count on my NO vote!

On another note, nice to see Prospect etc have decided to same money be withdrawing the one NATS one pension site. All my faith in the unions has now gone!

DC10RealMan

I went to a pensions briefing today. I would urge all members to attend the briefings given by the NTUS and management. In my opinion it boils down to one fundamental question, "Do you trust the management to leave your pension entitlement and other provisions alone for fifteen years?"

eglnyt

So what happens if there is a Yes vote ?

Air.Farce.1

Thanks DC10RealMan

I have not attended any briefing yet....

what is the significance of the 15 years ?

"Do you trust the management to leave your pension entitlement and other provisions alone for fifteen years?"

thanks

ImnotanERIC

dc10realman:
not a fundamental question for me. if i do trust them to leave it alone for fiftenn years, what happens then? I will only be 41, years from retirement and preparing for another shafting.
Mine's a NO.


air.farce.1: the publication from the union that was floating about with the proposal on it promises to be reviewed again in 15 years.
Don't believe anything.
What happened to onenatsonepension, our pension being safe because a payment holiday was granted etc etc etc.

NO NO NO NO

MrJones

You have to join a NTUS union to vote.

Decisions are made by those who have a vote not by those shouting from sidelines.

Air.Farce.1

thanks ImnotanERIC

This is a no-brainer folks, you have got to vote

NO

audij

Here's how I see it.

The joint NATS NTUS pension briefings contain lots of slides showing hundreds of millions of deficit over the last few months. This is scaremongering and misleading since it's comparing short term issues against long term liabilities. I'm sad that the unions agreed to this presentation.

But.... these short term issues could trigger NATS bankruptcy. If there is a deficit at the next trieenial valuation (Dec 09) then the Trustess must get (legally no choice) NATS to make up the shortfall over 5 - 10 years. (They should probably do this after the Dec 08 annual valuation as well, but this is legally less clear cut.) In that case, it's a liablility on NATS that's become real. And if it results in a cost of £150m+ p.a. for 5 years (very possible), this would essentially mean that NATS is insolvent. At the point this happens, Barron and the Airline Group Directors etc. would be forced to put NATS into administration - they can't trade out to see if gets better since trading while knowing your company is insolvent is a crime. (But maybe I can drive his Aston while he's in jail. I’ll just savour that thought...)

At this stage, we get into the nationalisation debate. GB WILL nationalise us if NATS goes down, even if this is by the back door of buying more shares. He has no choice since no private buyer will touch us (with yours) if we have our current pension scheme. And GB can't afford any more pressure on the economy from stopping flights - after all he's already got to pay back four hundred billion quid! (The only worry is that 3 nats directors are GB’s reps, so GB must have cleared nats to take us on. This sounds like madness to me!)

The union b*****ds who've sold us out are saying new public sector schemes aren't edfined benefit and public pay rises are 2%, like for the cops as reasons why we should give in. THIS IS TOTAL B**L**KS!!!! The army can replace the firemen and the police and there's not enough penetration by the unions in the NHS to put it on its knees. But we are unique - our rarity and skills mean we're we have power few others have. If they want planes to fly, they need us and will have to pay us. They'll probably get the media to vilify us and wip up public opinion against us, but that's all they've got and I'm up for the fight. IT'S GOT TO BE NO!!!

250 kts

Or can we afford not to do something right now?

I spoke to someone who was at a briefing earlier this week, They went in as a resounding "no" and came out convinced that there really was no option-like it or not, It would appear this is the best of a bad situation.

Going to the briefings really is a must for us all to be properly informed.

throw a dyce

Well the last time we were supposed to get briefings from Prospect,they couldn't even be bothered to turn up at the unit.
What do we pay our union subs for?
Well Prospect we don't really like it,and we expect you to help the people who pay for the representation.
How many union reps are on a promotion promise,if this goes through..eh.

Air.Farce.1

Unless there is some dramatic "secret" being kept hidden from us, I still remain convinced we are being stitched up my management.
I refer you to my previous post "26th September" ... before the present financial crisis ....

"Sounds like the reps have been groomed to convince us during their "working together" sessions, no doubt using the current Global financial crisis to strengthen managements case and frighten us by weakening our resolve. Dont listen to them, use the ballott "

And from my other previous post...

"Legal Status and Ownership

NATS Holdings Ltd is the holding company for NATS Group. It owns NATS Ltd, which in turn owns two operating subsidiaries: NATS (En-Route) plc (NERL) and NATS (Services) Ltd (NSL). The Airline Group Ltd, a consortium of seven airlines, has the majority of voting rights and 41.9% of the shares of NATS Holdings Ltd. The Secretary of State for Transport owns 48.9%, BAA plc 4.2%; and NATS Employee Sharetrust Ltd 5%.

The Government is the major shareholder (48.9%) and NATS cannot go into administration. There is a good reason why they still part own it... because NATS is essential to the UK both economically and from a safety and security aspect, thus NATS will not be allowed to go into administration -even if it could."

Bearing the above in mind, since the Government owns 48.9% which belongs to the Public sector, perhaps we are attacking this from the wrong angle. Has anyone lobbied their local MP ? NATS is predominantly owned by the Government not the private shareholders above.

Please bear these facts in mind and try and steer away from any attempts to have your minds changed by the faint hearted who post management and dare I say Union "working together" opinions on this forum.

Consider this also, the meer threat of a one day strike would not be tolerated by the Public, never mind an actual ATC strike. We know the effects from a 3 hour computer glitch - headline news and major delays.
Do not underestimate the skills you have which this Government and the public cannot do without "

This is probably your last chance to save your pension for you, your partner, your children and grandchildren.

Vote NO, or lose it

slip and turn

Yes that PCS' 'deliberate mistake' is embarassing, Jobby Wheecher.

I never did find out why onenatsonepension.com got taken off the air ... too much information perhaps?

When will the union start conducting itself carefully, and for the benefit of its members one wonders?

eglnyt

You may chose to believe that there is a great conspiracy between the union and management and we've been sold down the river but it's starting to become clear how they've got to this point and I don't think either side had any choice.

It may seem foolhardy for NATS management to pick this fight that they couldn't possibly win but actually they had to. Given the choice of breaking the law and all the sanctions that would bring down on them as individuals or possibly taking the company into Air Traffic administration and just losing their jobs I know which one I'd pick. With the second they can move onto other things, the first would also leave them unemployed and probably stop them ever holding such a post again.

Similarly the union probably doesn't have any choice either. Yes on the face of it the controllers are probably the last unionised workforce with true industrial power but if they set off all that dry powder an awful lot of people, most of them also union members, are likely to get hurt in the ensuing fireball. Yes some of the Prospect members may have flame proof suits but others don't. You may think they've sold you out but I think they just realise the reality of the situation. They are conducting themselves for the benefit of all their members not just the few who are flameproof.

Having had a look at the Transport Act provision for administration I don't think bringing the company down is going to be the Nirvana some may think. NATS would probably remain a separate company run by a Government appointed administrator and still subject to price regulation. It will have to repay any money used to bail it out which effectively means cost cutting year on year and no investment in new equipment etc. Eventually that cost cutting will have to move to controllers because there is nothing else to cut. It'll take a bit of time but it will happen.

121decimal375

Prospect sold its members down the river when they negotiated going against the current mandates. No negotiations should have taken place prior to this issue being raised at the annual conference.

the pension pot has been robbed by NATS with their pension holiday. The questions we need to answer...

How much did NATS take from the pension surplus?
Would the scheme be in the same state, with all these millions back in?

I would think not. Im still a big NO!

Asda

The pension predictor spreadsheet doesn't make for pleasant reading. Can anyone remember what the RPI+ pay deals were or what they averaged over the last few years?

hold at SATAN

Whatever financial doom and goom ensues at the moment will NOT last forever, it is just a temporary situation that WILL resolve itself and CERTAINLY WITHIN THE NEXT 15 YEARS.

If we don't vote NO now we will lose the chance to do anything until the year2023+ Now that's a LONG time to have our hands tied for, by when the difference between what we currently get and the proposed pension will be too great to reconcile.

Since NATS have settled a large loan early and have absorbed the move out of LTCC the outgoings should be much reduced and settle down, which could offset the increased pensions liability. And NATS management should forget about PROFIT, we are a NON-PROFIT MAKING company FFS. Our shareholders knew that when they took a part of NATS, why have their expectations changed?

VOTE NO

bross_al

Asda over the last 18 years the pay increase has been 147% which has been almost double the Rpi of 79%.so the average rise has been rpi+ 2.5%.

PPRuNe Radar

Caving in over this big issue will give the current (and any future) management the signal that they can do whatever they like to us in terms of pay and conditions, safe in the knowledge that we'll do bugger all about it.

Time for that line in the sand to be drawn permanently and the battle lines prepared.

If we lose this, we lose everything that has been built up over the years.


I have quite a few questions ready for my roadshow, some of which focus on why the union is sleeping with the enemy and apparently reneging on Branch Policy. Some will focus on why the Government won't put in the required funding for any temporary shortfall, as they promised when PPP happened. (I doubt they have even been asked, as this would not help Mr Barron's position as the government appointed 'hero' who sold NATS off down the river) And some will focus on raising the awareness of NATS as to how many things could crumble before their eyes when all the goodwill is withdrawn by staff. I am sure there we be loads of other points added from other equally inflamed folks at my unit too !!


with our pension at your peril.

Air.Farce.1

Thank you PPRuNe Radar !

You are restoring my faith in humanity

We have got to stand together on this... or we are finished, and Barron will ride off into the sunset in his Aston Martin with a suitcase full of our money

kinglouis

after many chats in and out of our ops room, with union reps and us mortals.... it seems nats are playing a clever game. all these sneaky tactics to make us believe that if this change doesnt get put through the whole company and our pensions are going bust by the close of 2009. this is simply not true, they are blowing smoke up our arses and the union has fallen for it to 'save' the company.
do they really think that we are naive enough to beleive the company will actually go to the wall? no flights in, out or over the UK... the government will never let that happen.
when ppp came in we were protected, and so that should stand. ATCOs ATSAs Engineers and office staff....lets stick together and tell them to ram it.
i am eagerly waiting next weeks briefings as i have plenty of questions for our week spined union and those snake nats manager types.
the next time our union is up for new reps, im sticking my name down?