A small detail for UK NATS staff (National ID cards)
Beady Eye
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BD
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Technically not going to affect you as yet though is it BD? Only those working at an airport.
Quite how this is going to help security I don't know.
Bit like the questions on the orange sheet that wanted to know who I had lived with in the past 5 years but wasn't interested in who I was currently seeing - which I would've thought was much more relevant. Oh yeah - and the question asking if I'd ever been a terrorist!
louby
Quite how this is going to help security I don't know.
Bit like the questions on the orange sheet that wanted to know who I had lived with in the past 5 years but wasn't interested in who I was currently seeing - which I would've thought was much more relevant. Oh yeah - and the question asking if I'd ever been a terrorist!
louby
Beady Eye
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Major Experience Word of Warning
OK. Major personal experience, warts and all. I was part of a voluntary DNA scheme where we gave blood to further the dna project.
So i'm out one night and see a bloke lying on the grass, moaning and out of it. When I take a closer look the guy's covered in blood. Some madman has a go at me and i fend him off. So I do the decent thing and sort the dude out, recovery position etc. I stay with him until the ambulance arrives (which i called on my own mobile). Then I go home (on the advice of the ambulance crew). I provided my details in full to the crew.
2 daysl ater I'm at work and I get dragged out in front of all my colleagues on suspicion of GBH by 5 officers. I subsequently lose my tax office job a week later. My DNA was found at the scene apparently! There is no record of me leaving my details. The ambulance guys were a little to busy to write it down.
I am held for 24 hours as per the statute and am bullied and refused any legal council, despite my protestations and legal knowledge/rights. This is my word against the Police of course.
ID Cards? I urge you when civil liberties can be easily and readily abused(as i have experienced) we should not make it any easier, no matter the potential benefits. Any form of people listing according to a set of statistics should be refused and opposed.
I would rather see a murderer freed than 10 innocent men hanged.
Don't get me wrong, I want crime cut as much as you. Isn't it better to lock the wrong man up.
So i'm out one night and see a bloke lying on the grass, moaning and out of it. When I take a closer look the guy's covered in blood. Some madman has a go at me and i fend him off. So I do the decent thing and sort the dude out, recovery position etc. I stay with him until the ambulance arrives (which i called on my own mobile). Then I go home (on the advice of the ambulance crew). I provided my details in full to the crew.
2 daysl ater I'm at work and I get dragged out in front of all my colleagues on suspicion of GBH by 5 officers. I subsequently lose my tax office job a week later. My DNA was found at the scene apparently! There is no record of me leaving my details. The ambulance guys were a little to busy to write it down.
I am held for 24 hours as per the statute and am bullied and refused any legal council, despite my protestations and legal knowledge/rights. This is my word against the Police of course.
ID Cards? I urge you when civil liberties can be easily and readily abused(as i have experienced) we should not make it any easier, no matter the potential benefits. Any form of people listing according to a set of statistics should be refused and opposed.
I would rather see a murderer freed than 10 innocent men hanged.
Don't get me wrong, I want crime cut as much as you. Isn't it better to lock the wrong man up.
A bit dated now but ......
Some years ago on an early shift at LHR.
Two officers enter our ops room and arrest one of my colleagues and haul him away to the LHR police station.
Now I'm sure they probably did say what they were arresting him as they claimed later ... but none of us actually heard it.
He was kept for almost the full day at the station... eventually released when the company actually advised they were assigning someone to legally represent them ... all attempts to find out what was going on, how/where he was etc were rebuffed by the police.
It turns out his problem was ......
Back in those days if you had a convertable car (as he did) rather than display the real car park pass you used a paper substitute that basically said you do have a real pass.
Some days before his had been taken from the windscreen on his MGB in the T1 car park.... the very reason why they were worthless bits of paper instead of real pass.
His big mistake, it turns out, was in not reporting this to the BAA.
Wind on .... as ever there were (and proly still are) problems with theft from cars in those areas.
The boys in blue disturb some of these "n'ere do wells" and while running off they drop something......... which turns out to be the missing "worthless.. I really do have a real pass" bit of paper.
The day after this they walk into our office and arrest him.
After he returned to us he told a tale of having been simply left in a cell all day with no idea of why they were holding him. It was only at the end of the day when they asked him what he was doing on such & such day/time ... when he pointed out that he had been in the same ops office with the rest of us where he had been arrested.
Now I understand things like PACE etc. mean explanations etc are more readily given these days .... but the ability to add 2+2 and make 6 and 7/8ths still exists.
It will always remain possible to connect the "evidence" in an incorrect manner to arrive the incorrect conclusion of evidents.
Over they years since I've been required to make many workplace investigations into incidents/events/accidents and have long since learnt that actual events often turn out to be very different to what might first be indicated by the "evidence".
Some years ago on an early shift at LHR.
Two officers enter our ops room and arrest one of my colleagues and haul him away to the LHR police station.
Now I'm sure they probably did say what they were arresting him as they claimed later ... but none of us actually heard it.
He was kept for almost the full day at the station... eventually released when the company actually advised they were assigning someone to legally represent them ... all attempts to find out what was going on, how/where he was etc were rebuffed by the police.
It turns out his problem was ......
Back in those days if you had a convertable car (as he did) rather than display the real car park pass you used a paper substitute that basically said you do have a real pass.
Some days before his had been taken from the windscreen on his MGB in the T1 car park.... the very reason why they were worthless bits of paper instead of real pass.
His big mistake, it turns out, was in not reporting this to the BAA.
Wind on .... as ever there were (and proly still are) problems with theft from cars in those areas.
The boys in blue disturb some of these "n'ere do wells" and while running off they drop something......... which turns out to be the missing "worthless.. I really do have a real pass" bit of paper.
The day after this they walk into our office and arrest him.
After he returned to us he told a tale of having been simply left in a cell all day with no idea of why they were holding him. It was only at the end of the day when they asked him what he was doing on such & such day/time ... when he pointed out that he had been in the same ops office with the rest of us where he had been arrested.
Now I understand things like PACE etc. mean explanations etc are more readily given these days .... but the ability to add 2+2 and make 6 and 7/8ths still exists.
It will always remain possible to connect the "evidence" in an incorrect manner to arrive the incorrect conclusion of evidents.
Over they years since I've been required to make many workplace investigations into incidents/events/accidents and have long since learnt that actual events often turn out to be very different to what might first be indicated by the "evidence".
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Petition here for those that haven't signed it and feel like doing so:
http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/airsideid/
http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/airsideid/
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ID cards will never prove identity.
How do you apply for an ID card? "Bonjour. Je suis Monsuir Jo Bloggs. J'arrive en Englais. Je voudrais un carte d' ID. Ici mon Passport Francais." Is a French (or Italian or Polish or Romanian) passport good enough? If not, how does someone prove their identity? If so, then the ID card system is as strong as the most corrupt and incompetent passport office in Europe. Not to mention the possibility that the underpaid spotty youth on work experience behind the counter is on the take.
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All those that work at airports already have data given to a private company. That company then issue an ID card after checks have been done.
Yet, so far as I am aware no one has worried about that company holding the information they do, nor what use they put it too.
All staff at airports are now CTC vetted. Ok, that vetting is a low level one, consisting of a PNC check, and a check with Special Branch and with a group who have a PO Box number as thier address.
Have those records been comprimised? Erm, not that I can recall, with the exception of the odd bent copper in the past. Now, it's far harder to do a false PNC check, and the penelty, ie a stay in one of HM Guest Houses, makes it not worth doing.
On the surface, the scare senarios of what if my DNA is found somewhere there has been an offence may make sense to those who have written them. From the other side of the coin, those scare senarios don't hold very much water. It's easy to assume the events discribed, in reality all DNA does is indicate someone may have been there. It does not alone prove guilt.
Yes, you may get arrested because of it, although, it's not a definate. My DNA, and fingerprints are still on the Police system (because I was a Police Officer, not because I've been nicked!). I have no fears about them being there. Again, so far as I am aware, neither the National Fingerprint Collection, nor the DNA database have been comprimised.
Some people will talk (or not talk) themselves into being charged with things they haven't done, that isn't going to change because of ID cards or a national ID card system.
I've sat the other side of an interview room table, desperatly trying to get an explanation from a suspect, because although the evidence is strong enough to charge him, I don't believe he did it, and been thrawted in that either by solicitors telling thier client to say nothing, or through the suspect lying because he thinks that will get him out of it. Like 99.9% of police, I had no interest in convicting someone who wasn't guilty.
As for ID cards themselves. The assumption is that any organisation can get access to everything on it. They wont. DVLA will not be able to see your National Insurance details, because they don't need it. Nor will your Town Hall be able to look at your medical records. There is already legislation that prevents access to information that there is no need to have.
As someone has already said, with a few details you'd be suprised how much data there is about you already available, and fairly unrestricted. Yes, The NIR will have more, but all that 'more' will be is a central database which holds the information currently available as the result of 8 or 9 checks.
On the subject of 'discrimination' against those that work on airports. Yes, I agree. It's either ID cards for all, or no one.
Yet, so far as I am aware no one has worried about that company holding the information they do, nor what use they put it too.
All staff at airports are now CTC vetted. Ok, that vetting is a low level one, consisting of a PNC check, and a check with Special Branch and with a group who have a PO Box number as thier address.
Have those records been comprimised? Erm, not that I can recall, with the exception of the odd bent copper in the past. Now, it's far harder to do a false PNC check, and the penelty, ie a stay in one of HM Guest Houses, makes it not worth doing.
On the surface, the scare senarios of what if my DNA is found somewhere there has been an offence may make sense to those who have written them. From the other side of the coin, those scare senarios don't hold very much water. It's easy to assume the events discribed, in reality all DNA does is indicate someone may have been there. It does not alone prove guilt.
Yes, you may get arrested because of it, although, it's not a definate. My DNA, and fingerprints are still on the Police system (because I was a Police Officer, not because I've been nicked!). I have no fears about them being there. Again, so far as I am aware, neither the National Fingerprint Collection, nor the DNA database have been comprimised.
Some people will talk (or not talk) themselves into being charged with things they haven't done, that isn't going to change because of ID cards or a national ID card system.
I've sat the other side of an interview room table, desperatly trying to get an explanation from a suspect, because although the evidence is strong enough to charge him, I don't believe he did it, and been thrawted in that either by solicitors telling thier client to say nothing, or through the suspect lying because he thinks that will get him out of it. Like 99.9% of police, I had no interest in convicting someone who wasn't guilty.
As for ID cards themselves. The assumption is that any organisation can get access to everything on it. They wont. DVLA will not be able to see your National Insurance details, because they don't need it. Nor will your Town Hall be able to look at your medical records. There is already legislation that prevents access to information that there is no need to have.
As someone has already said, with a few details you'd be suprised how much data there is about you already available, and fairly unrestricted. Yes, The NIR will have more, but all that 'more' will be is a central database which holds the information currently available as the result of 8 or 9 checks.
On the subject of 'discrimination' against those that work on airports. Yes, I agree. It's either ID cards for all, or no one.
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WHODOUDO a Dad?
BD
Chill out MAN! Great steer with regard to Gattaca an' all.
Sorry ol' boy...the comparisons between a mil ID and current UK govt proposals are???? Still have'nt heard a decent argument from you or anyone else on this comparison, IMO.
Best wishes, WHODOUDO.
Joke (alledgedy!)...PMT is the favourite part of my month...it is when I can truly be myself!!!
Victoria Wood.
Chill out MAN! Great steer with regard to Gattaca an' all.
Sorry ol' boy...the comparisons between a mil ID and current UK govt proposals are???? Still have'nt heard a decent argument from you or anyone else on this comparison, IMO.
Best wishes, WHODOUDO.
Joke (alledgedy!)...PMT is the favourite part of my month...it is when I can truly be myself!!!
Victoria Wood.
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bjcc....Its not even so much the present Government (well maybe 
) or laws that we should be wary of. Its what the proposed system can expose us to in the future. Or indeed our children.
Once the box is opened no one will be able to stop the rot.....Because of your position I would not expect you to see it that way...
Thanks though for the support on discrimination of Airport Airside workers...
) or laws that we should be wary of. Its what the proposed system can expose us to in the future. Or indeed our children.Once the box is opened no one will be able to stop the rot.....Because of your position I would not expect you to see it that way...
Thanks though for the support on discrimination of Airport Airside workers...
Definately against a DNA database.
Jurys DO convict on circumstantial evidence. All it takes is an "Expert Witness" and you're banged away for something you didn't do. Let's face it, an expert witness offers an opinion, it is NOT evidence yet we get innocent mothers shut away for killing their children, then some nutter of an expert witness turns up and says the father must have done it because of something the looney expert saw on telly.
Don't make me laugh about the police only arrresting guilty people. They've been caught out fitting people up too often for my liking on that one, and finding one of my hairs in a hire car that was used to transport a body some weeks or months later and then me getting hauled off by our wonderful boys in blue does not appeal, so let's not give them another tool to finger innocent people.
This DNA database should be resisted with every fibre of all our collective being for the above reasons.
Doc C
Jurys DO convict on circumstantial evidence. All it takes is an "Expert Witness" and you're banged away for something you didn't do. Let's face it, an expert witness offers an opinion, it is NOT evidence yet we get innocent mothers shut away for killing their children, then some nutter of an expert witness turns up and says the father must have done it because of something the looney expert saw on telly.
Don't make me laugh about the police only arrresting guilty people. They've been caught out fitting people up too often for my liking on that one, and finding one of my hairs in a hire car that was used to transport a body some weeks or months later and then me getting hauled off by our wonderful boys in blue does not appeal, so let's not give them another tool to finger innocent people.
This DNA database should be resisted with every fibre of all our collective being for the above reasons.
Doc C
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Originally Posted by bjcc
Yes, you may get arrested because of it, although, it's not a definate. My DNA, and fingerprints are still on the Police system (because I was a Police Officer, not because I've been nicked!). I have no fears about them being there. Again, so far as I am aware, neither the National Fingerprint Collection, nor the DNA database have been comprimised.
FYI, currently the DNA database contains information on the first few strands of proteins. I'm not sure the precise number without looking it up, but suffice to say it is too expensive and time consuming to automatically record the full DNA strand for each and every person sampled.
What does this mean?
IIRC, -> a DNA sample on the database will match up to 50 people.
-> it is not out of the realm of possibility a suspect in the south of England could have the same DNA profile as someone in Scotland (assuming those 50 people are geographically spread throughout the world).
Although analysis of the full strands of DNA would then have to taken for each suspect, it would still ruin someones reputation (not least because of the general public misunderstanding of what the DNA database actually contains [the assumption that a match = a definitive conclusion).
At least, that is what a detective inspector has informed me before now.
I also agree with the concerns of what will happen to the users of the database in the future. Who knows what the future holds.
I get the impression the current cultivated 'climate of fear' has made some people think that ID cards / N.ID Database will be a temporary measure (e.g. for 40-50 years or so). But that is highly unlikily - once something like this is introduced its nighon impossible to get rid of it regardless of the general population's viewpoint - that's another reason why preventing it in the first place is only safe option.
& yes, before supplying information to people and organisations I do review how they'll use it as well as ticking the optional opt-out boxes (where applicable).
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Just got the reply from my mp:
Dear Radar 707
Thank you for your email.
I have read it with interest and I regret to disappoint you but I
support what the Government is proposing on ID cards. I am grateful to
you for letting me know your views and, if I can be of further help, do
please let me know.
Yours sincerely
Bill Olner MP
Sign the petition: http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/airsideid/
Dear Radar 707
Thank you for your email.
I have read it with interest and I regret to disappoint you but I
support what the Government is proposing on ID cards. I am grateful to
you for letting me know your views and, if I can be of further help, do
please let me know.
Yours sincerely
Bill Olner MP
Sign the petition: http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/airsideid/
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ID cards, a road to hell.
The UK driver licensing people cannot even get a SORN declaration correct with regard to one of my vehicles being off the road...I am obliged to provide much info about myself to the authorities, and they want MORE?
They cannot even get some simple admin correct over vehicle issues.
With the amount of info being mooted by the govt they wish to be on record, and with Parliamentary lobbying going on from private companies who stand to make millions with regard to intro of ID card schemes...
I refer to the title of this post...
A ROAD TO HELL.
WHODOUDO
PS would like to post a joke/ditty, as usual, but just not in the mood this evening.
They cannot even get some simple admin correct over vehicle issues.
With the amount of info being mooted by the govt they wish to be on record, and with Parliamentary lobbying going on from private companies who stand to make millions with regard to intro of ID card schemes...
I refer to the title of this post...
A ROAD TO HELL.
WHODOUDO
PS would like to post a joke/ditty, as usual, but just not in the mood this evening.
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Is it just me or is there something vaguely risible about a group of people angry about having to join a government database freely adding their details to a government website?
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