What are your pet hate non-standard phraseologies?
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Not so much phraseology but poor RT eg:
1. The old chestnut of giving someone a frequency change and they go without acknowledging
2. You ask them a question and no response so you ask them again and you realise that all the time they were working on a response - why don't they say 'standby' so you know they've heard you the first time?
3. Supposedly cool phraseology like "PD to 350" = "Pilot's discretion to FL350" etc
No guesses for the nationality producing the bulk of the above
1. The old chestnut of giving someone a frequency change and they go without acknowledging
2. You ask them a question and no response so you ask them again and you realise that all the time they were working on a response - why don't they say 'standby' so you know they've heard you the first time?
3. Supposedly cool phraseology like "PD to 350" = "Pilot's discretion to FL350" etc
No guesses for the nationality producing the bulk of the above
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An instruction can only be given - and is only meaningful - when you are under some form of "Control".
"Remain outside controlled airspace" is an instruction.
If you are in Class G, waiting to enter Class D, there is NO Air Traffic "Control".
Ergo, the phrase is unnecessary - indeed, in law it could be said to be ultra vires ...
Pedant OFF"Remain outside controlled airspace" is an instruction.
If you are in Class G, waiting to enter Class D, there is NO Air Traffic "Control".
Ergo, the phrase is unnecessary - indeed, in law it could be said to be ultra vires ...
JD
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Pilots requesting "full procedure approach"..... Is there a half procedure....?
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DFC
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Pedant ON
An instruction can only be given - and is only meaningful - when you are under some form of "Control".
"Remain outside controlled airspace" is an instruction.
If you are in Class G, waiting to enter Class D, there is NO Air Traffic "Control".
Ergo, the phrase is unnecessary - indeed, in law it could be said to be ultra vires ...
Pedant OFF
An instruction can only be given - and is only meaningful - when you are under some form of "Control".
"Remain outside controlled airspace" is an instruction.
If you are in Class G, waiting to enter Class D, there is NO Air Traffic "Control".
Ergo, the phrase is unnecessary - indeed, in law it could be said to be ultra vires ...
Pedant OFF
Alternatively, ATC say nothing, let the infringement occur and leave it to the magistrates court to deal with, no doubt with the CAA eventually becoming sick of GA and putting in some draconian rules which will hurt all GA pilots.
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Radar Heading
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Mungo
I think the point is that you are on a HEADING, is there any other form of heading other than a RADAR HEADING? I don't think the word RADAR is required.
PP
I think the point is that you are on a HEADING, is there any other form of heading other than a RADAR HEADING? I don't think the word RADAR is required.
PP
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Lear
I was under the impression that you only have to say your passing level in the initial contact to the radar controller AFTER DEPARTURE, when the mode C is verified and then drop it for the rest of the flight? Or is that just a UK thing? Anyone?
PP
yes pp, when passing to an other controller you always have to say the level passing before the level you are cleared to in order to verify the mode C..., tell me if I'm mistaking that one
PP
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At EGNT yesterday heard the following by a familiar german airline:
a/c: Newcastle Tower, jet123 ready
twr: Jet123 call back when 'fully ready'
a/c: Newcastle Tower, jet123 FULLY READY
twr: Jet123 your still loading passengers, advise when fully ready
a/c: We are fully ready, we are closing the door in 10 seconds.
twr: Jet123 call me when your fully ready.
a/c: Newcastle Tower, jet123 ready
twr: Jet123 call back when 'fully ready'
a/c: Newcastle Tower, jet123 FULLY READY
twr: Jet123 your still loading passengers, advise when fully ready
a/c: We are fully ready, we are closing the door in 10 seconds.
twr: Jet123 call me when your fully ready.
Last edited by L'aviateur; 1st Apr 2008 at 13:09.
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Agree - "FULLY" in any shape or form. Thoroughly gash. Even ATC are starting this horrible habit now.
"At this time..." How unnecessary is that? In the unusual event of a forward estimate being given standard RT makes this clear.
And worst of all for pomposity, "THE..." before a callsign.
"At this time..." How unnecessary is that? In the unusual event of a forward estimate being given standard RT makes this clear.
And worst of all for pomposity, "THE..." before a callsign.
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PPRuNE, you miss the point:
You write: "True, in which case maybe we should be asking the pilot to confirm he will be remaining outside ... which is a request for information, not an instruction. That said, how can I instruct you to join if you are in Class G as I can't give you any Air Traffic Control instructions by your reckoning ??"
You are assuming that every time aircraft call you they are going to ask to enter your controlled airspace! If you are (for example) flying 20 miles west of BOH and just giving them a courtesy call, you might still get the "Remain outside controlled airspace. Stand By" response, when you have no intention whatsoever of going into CA and all you are doing is trying to let them know who you are and what you are doing.
Of course, if Bournemouth ATS are happy to have aircraft overfly (above CA) or pass close to their general area without these aircraft making any call, OK. But I think they'd rather know what was going on.
Or there are occasions one might already be IN controlled airspace, and you are calling BOH for some reason unconnected to your immediate flight, such as asking when you are closing tonight.
There is no point in being pompous and saying that 1) most times the first isn't happening, and 2) you should call by telephone to find out closing time, etc., because although you may be right, the fact is, there is a percentage of times when being told "Remain outside controlled airspace" is totally inappropriate, hacks you off, and the more it happens the more it hacks you off!
How many other instructions do ATC give that can be totally inappropriate?
This is a thread about "pet hates"! The fact that a few posters have mentioned it shows that it does qualfy as a pet hate.
By the way, Brize is a greater offender than Bournemouth. I use these examples only because I am pretty familiar with them. Other ATSs may be even worse.
RB
You write: "True, in which case maybe we should be asking the pilot to confirm he will be remaining outside ... which is a request for information, not an instruction. That said, how can I instruct you to join if you are in Class G as I can't give you any Air Traffic Control instructions by your reckoning ??"
You are assuming that every time aircraft call you they are going to ask to enter your controlled airspace! If you are (for example) flying 20 miles west of BOH and just giving them a courtesy call, you might still get the "Remain outside controlled airspace. Stand By" response, when you have no intention whatsoever of going into CA and all you are doing is trying to let them know who you are and what you are doing.
Of course, if Bournemouth ATS are happy to have aircraft overfly (above CA) or pass close to their general area without these aircraft making any call, OK. But I think they'd rather know what was going on.
Or there are occasions one might already be IN controlled airspace, and you are calling BOH for some reason unconnected to your immediate flight, such as asking when you are closing tonight.
There is no point in being pompous and saying that 1) most times the first isn't happening, and 2) you should call by telephone to find out closing time, etc., because although you may be right, the fact is, there is a percentage of times when being told "Remain outside controlled airspace" is totally inappropriate, hacks you off, and the more it happens the more it hacks you off!
How many other instructions do ATC give that can be totally inappropriate?
This is a thread about "pet hates"! The fact that a few posters have mentioned it shows that it does qualfy as a pet hate.
By the way, Brize is a greater offender than Bournemouth. I use these examples only because I am pretty familiar with them. Other ATSs may be even worse.
RB
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True, in which case maybe we should be asking the pilot to confirm he will be remaining outside ... which is a request for information, not an instruction. That said, how can I instruct you to join if you are in Class G as I can't give you any Air Traffic Control instructions by your reckoning ??
JD
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Originally Posted by Jumbo Driver
you are assuming that every pilot calling you is so ignorant of his own responsibilities that he will burgle your airspace in a trice unless you specifically forbid him from doing so
It is an unfortunate trend that the rules are changing and continue to change to meet 'arse covering' requirements - to protect ourselves from the lowest common denominator (on both ends of the AGA).
It is a reflection of society's trend in the reduction of personal accountability, IMHO. Instead of having a rule (eg don't enter CTA unless you have a clearance) and then punishing the breakers of said rule (eg here's a fine or Yoink, there goes your licence) a redundant phrase is introduced as a tin plate exercise.
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Alternatively, ATC say nothing, let the infringement occur and leave it to the magistrates court to deal with, no doubt with the CAA eventually becoming sick of GA and putting in some draconian rules which will hurt all GA pilots.
As I suggested in my original post on that issue, I'm calling because I know my responsibilities with regard to obtaining a clearance to cross airspace. To assume that unless ATC tells me not to enter controlled airspace I WILL infringe, is a bit of a slur on my professionalism; that's why I don't like the phrase.
If I'm simply told to "Standby" and receive no clearance in good time, I'll go round the airspace or make other arrangements. I can often tell from listening to the ATC r/t load before my call, whether or not to ask for a crossing in the first place; a classic example is the western end of the Luton CTR. I plan an alternative and if told to "Standby" will immediately put plan B into action and go round / under the CTA.
I can understand that infringements have taken place where an (inexperienced, or badly trained?) pilot has blundered on having called right on the boundary, or perhaps already inside - but in many of those cases, I would suggest the pilot was uncertain of his position, rather than uncertain of his responsibility.
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Shytorque, Riverboat + Jumbodriver
The unfortunate fact is that there is a growing number of controlled airspace infringements.
"Remain outside controlled airspace" is not aimed at the majority of GA pilots who know what they are doing, where they are and their responsibilities regarding avoiding CAS. It is a phrase aimed at the lowest common denominator. Ie the few idiots that do infringe.
The problem ATC have is that we don't know if you are ultra proffessional or a numpty when you call, therefore you get the stock numpty phrase. It may be irritating but bear with us it is said for a good reason. If it helps to avoid one potential airprox a year then its worth it.
The unfortunate fact is that there is a growing number of controlled airspace infringements.
"Remain outside controlled airspace" is not aimed at the majority of GA pilots who know what they are doing, where they are and their responsibilities regarding avoiding CAS. It is a phrase aimed at the lowest common denominator. Ie the few idiots that do infringe.
The problem ATC have is that we don't know if you are ultra proffessional or a numpty when you call, therefore you get the stock numpty phrase. It may be irritating but bear with us it is said for a good reason. If it helps to avoid one potential airprox a year then its worth it.
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The problem ATC have is that we don't know if you are ultra proffessional or a numpty when you call,
But how DOES it prevent an infringement?
Ready for base / ready for the turn
Seems to get more popular by the day. A good swift "Roger" (over the RT of course
) tends to do the trick, unfortunately not always.
I don't know where pilots get this myth that controllers really want to spoil their day and eek out their time on frequency for as long as we can. Whilst inkeeping with providing the best service etc, I want to get rid of you as soon as I can, so 99% of the time i'm not keeping you on downwind for my own pleasure, it's due to reasons that you won't necessarily be able to see on your sacred TCAS.
Unless of course some totty has appeared in Radar and concentration on radar becomes momentarily diverted
Unfortunately not at my unit...
Seems to get more popular by the day. A good swift "Roger" (over the RT of course
) tends to do the trick, unfortunately not always.I don't know where pilots get this myth that controllers really want to spoil their day and eek out their time on frequency for as long as we can. Whilst inkeeping with providing the best service etc, I want to get rid of you as soon as I can, so 99% of the time i'm not keeping you on downwind for my own pleasure, it's due to reasons that you won't necessarily be able to see on your sacred TCAS.
Unless of course some totty has appeared in Radar and concentration on radar becomes momentarily diverted
Unfortunately not at my unit...
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Mungo P
It's not in the CAP413 or the controller's Manual, so it's not standard phraseology, and it's precise meaning is therefore not defined anywhere. That makes it meaningless and superfluous. On handover you certainly should pass your heading if you have been assigned one, but by stating the heading you are flying in terms of degrees.
Riverboat
There is no assumption needed if the pilot states on his first call what his reqeuest actually is, as per the CAP413, i.e. flight information service (no request to transit CAS is needed), joining instructions (requesting permission to enter controlled airspace to land at an airfield within it), or a controlled airspace transit. In the latter two cases, the arse covering is required if an immediate clearance to enter can't be given, in the former I would think that ATC could intelligently omit the phrase. In my experience when operating as GA pilot, this is more often than not the case.
The need has come about historically and is one of the many layers put in place to prevent incidents happening. If there had never been infringements by aircraft who had simply been told to stand by, we probably wouldn't need it. But as they have actually occurred in the past, safety measures are taken to reduce the possibility of a reoccurrence. It's not a guarantee it can't happen of course, nor is it a statement that 100% of GA pilots can't be trusted. It's simply a little thing which might prevent someone from making an error.
You also have to remember that non UK licenced pilots also operate in the airspace and their 'local' rules for entry might be vastly different (US and Canada for example), so it's another reason for making the distinction that entry to controlled airspace has not yet been granted. These foreign licence holders might be flying in G reg aircraft, or might be UK nationals trained outside the UK flying any manner of registered aircraft, so ATC can't simply assume that a local aircraft or a local sounding pilot are au fait with the UK rules.
Jumbo Driver
No such assumption is made, however how can I know that you are not one of the pilots who contributed to the 699 infringements which took place in 2007 (46 were medium risk and 7 were high risk ) or 1 of the 80 which have occurred so far this year (7 medium risk) ? Quite simply I can't, and my role is not one of a traffic policeman checking your qualifications and competence before tailoring my advice to you to remain outside until I have given you a clearance. The CAA, with the support of the ATC agencies and working groups such as the excellent Flyontrack, try to think of measures to pre-empt the danger posed by unauthorised airspace incursions. The reminder phraseology is just part of that work. It may annoy you but it's not there for that purpose. It's there to try and enhance safety.
If you read Chickenlips' post, you will also see that the UK is not alone in experiencing infringements, nor alone in bringing phraseology to help prevent them where it can.
Shy Torque
But it's not a slur. It's as I have explained above. A tool which ATC use to try and prevent the incursion by those who may have infringed (for whatever reason) had they not been given the 'heads up' warning. We can't identify those that know the rules, and those that don't, simply from a RT call. So as someone else said, we have to cater for the lowest piloting skill and experience level.
Radar Heading
Am I missing something here ? Early in this thread (haven't read them all I admit)... it seems that some (inc Pprune Radar) take exception to hearing it.. It's been a very long time since doing my IR training but I seem to remember that on hand-over we were supposed to inc the phrase and heading to the next controller... just by way of a back-up...
Am I missing something here ? Early in this thread (haven't read them all I admit)... it seems that some (inc Pprune Radar) take exception to hearing it.. It's been a very long time since doing my IR training but I seem to remember that on hand-over we were supposed to inc the phrase and heading to the next controller... just by way of a back-up...
Riverboat
You are assuming that every time aircraft call you they are going to ask to enter your controlled airspace! If you are (for example) flying 20 miles west of BOH and just giving them a courtesy call, you might still get the "Remain outside controlled airspace. Stand By" response, when you have no intention whatsoever of going into CA and all you are doing is trying to let them know who you are and what you are doing.
The need has come about historically and is one of the many layers put in place to prevent incidents happening. If there had never been infringements by aircraft who had simply been told to stand by, we probably wouldn't need it. But as they have actually occurred in the past, safety measures are taken to reduce the possibility of a reoccurrence. It's not a guarantee it can't happen of course, nor is it a statement that 100% of GA pilots can't be trusted. It's simply a little thing which might prevent someone from making an error.
You also have to remember that non UK licenced pilots also operate in the airspace and their 'local' rules for entry might be vastly different (US and Canada for example), so it's another reason for making the distinction that entry to controlled airspace has not yet been granted. These foreign licence holders might be flying in G reg aircraft, or might be UK nationals trained outside the UK flying any manner of registered aircraft, so ATC can't simply assume that a local aircraft or a local sounding pilot are au fait with the UK rules.
Jumbo Driver
Oh, PPRuNe Radar, you are assuming that every pilot calling you is so ignorant of his own responsibilities that he will burgle your airspace in a trice unless you specifically forbid him from doing so. Life is not like that. You have your responsibilities, we have ours. You know you do not control aircraft which are in Class G airspace - you should realise that acting as if you do is bound to get up our informed noses.
If you read Chickenlips' post, you will also see that the UK is not alone in experiencing infringements, nor alone in bringing phraseology to help prevent them where it can.
Shy Torque
As I suggested in my original post on that issue, I'm calling because I know my responsibilities with regard to obtaining a clearance to cross airspace. To assume that unless ATC tells me not to enter controlled airspace I WILL infringe, is a bit of a slur on my professionalism; that's why I don't like the phrase.
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But I've never heard ATC tell an airline pilot to "Standby, remain inside controlled airspace".... 
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Quote:
The problem ATC have is that we don't know if you are ultra proffessional or a numpty when you call,
And vice versa, likewise.
But how DOES it prevent an iincursion
The problem ATC have is that we don't know if you are ultra proffessional or a numpty when you call,
And vice versa, likewise.
But how DOES it prevent an iincursion
ShyTorque, Having read many of your posts, I am confused as I credited you with more knowledge/understanding than the above comment and the Airline pilot ref would imply. Firstly, the 'professional' slight. Yes, we are not all the same standard but we are regulated and tested on a regular basis (quarterly) to confirm standards do not fall below what is acceptable, are you? (I am referring to PPLs) By telling a/c to remain OCAS, you are more likely to prevent incursion than if you don't. Finally, how many airline pilots call from outside CAS to join? In my experience, any pilots OCAS are under a RAS and are handed over by the previous unit.
Last edited by GunkyTom; 4th Apr 2008 at 17:00. Reason: bad typing