PPRuNe Forums - View Single Post - What are your pet hate non-standard phraseologies?
Old 2nd April 2008 | 21:09
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PPRuNe Radar
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Mungo P

Radar Heading

Am I missing something here ? Early in this thread (haven't read them all I admit)... it seems that some (inc Pprune Radar) take exception to hearing it.. It's been a very long time since doing my IR training but I seem to remember that on hand-over we were supposed to inc the phrase and heading to the next controller... just by way of a back-up...
It's not in the CAP413 or the controller's Manual, so it's not standard phraseology, and it's precise meaning is therefore not defined anywhere. That makes it meaningless and superfluous. On handover you certainly should pass your heading if you have been assigned one, but by stating the heading you are flying in terms of degrees.

Riverboat

You are assuming that every time aircraft call you they are going to ask to enter your controlled airspace! If you are (for example) flying 20 miles west of BOH and just giving them a courtesy call, you might still get the "Remain outside controlled airspace. Stand By" response, when you have no intention whatsoever of going into CA and all you are doing is trying to let them know who you are and what you are doing.
There is no assumption needed if the pilot states on his first call what his reqeuest actually is, as per the CAP413, i.e. flight information service (no request to transit CAS is needed), joining instructions (requesting permission to enter controlled airspace to land at an airfield within it), or a controlled airspace transit. In the latter two cases, the arse covering is required if an immediate clearance to enter can't be given, in the former I would think that ATC could intelligently omit the phrase. In my experience when operating as GA pilot, this is more often than not the case.

The need has come about historically and is one of the many layers put in place to prevent incidents happening. If there had never been infringements by aircraft who had simply been told to stand by, we probably wouldn't need it. But as they have actually occurred in the past, safety measures are taken to reduce the possibility of a reoccurrence. It's not a guarantee it can't happen of course, nor is it a statement that 100% of GA pilots can't be trusted. It's simply a little thing which might prevent someone from making an error.

You also have to remember that non UK licenced pilots also operate in the airspace and their 'local' rules for entry might be vastly different (US and Canada for example), so it's another reason for making the distinction that entry to controlled airspace has not yet been granted. These foreign licence holders might be flying in G reg aircraft, or might be UK nationals trained outside the UK flying any manner of registered aircraft, so ATC can't simply assume that a local aircraft or a local sounding pilot are au fait with the UK rules.


Jumbo Driver

Oh, PPRuNe Radar, you are assuming that every pilot calling you is so ignorant of his own responsibilities that he will burgle your airspace in a trice unless you specifically forbid him from doing so. Life is not like that. You have your responsibilities, we have ours. You know you do not control aircraft which are in Class G airspace - you should realise that acting as if you do is bound to get up our informed noses.
No such assumption is made, however how can I know that you are not one of the pilots who contributed to the 699 infringements which took place in 2007 (46 were medium risk and 7 were high risk ) or 1 of the 80 which have occurred so far this year (7 medium risk) ? Quite simply I can't, and my role is not one of a traffic policeman checking your qualifications and competence before tailoring my advice to you to remain outside until I have given you a clearance. The CAA, with the support of the ATC agencies and working groups such as the excellent Flyontrack, try to think of measures to pre-empt the danger posed by unauthorised airspace incursions. The reminder phraseology is just part of that work. It may annoy you but it's not there for that purpose. It's there to try and enhance safety.

If you read Chickenlips' post, you will also see that the UK is not alone in experiencing infringements, nor alone in bringing phraseology to help prevent them where it can.

Shy Torque

As I suggested in my original post on that issue, I'm calling because I know my responsibilities with regard to obtaining a clearance to cross airspace. To assume that unless ATC tells me not to enter controlled airspace I WILL infringe, is a bit of a slur on my professionalism; that's why I don't like the phrase.
But it's not a slur. It's as I have explained above. A tool which ATC use to try and prevent the incursion by those who may have infringed (for whatever reason) had they not been given the 'heads up' warning. We can't identify those that know the rules, and those that don't, simply from a RT call. So as someone else said, we have to cater for the lowest piloting skill and experience level.
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