ATC VOLUNTARY OVERTIME BAN: Dublin Flights Delayed 25th January
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To gr nav- yes they have called plenty of people to do call ins and overtime but obviously people aren't interested. May be with the strength of feeling you have, they are afraid to call you 
(only joking!)
The unfortunate upshot of all this is that the company has now fully exhausted any goodwill that was there. This unfortunately has been developing over time and has reached its natural logical conclusion.
I know that both the iaa and the press monitor forums like this so i am choosing my words carefully from here on in.
The press releases by the iaa are a disgrace. It is however fully understandable that press releases like this will be issued by the very people who have caused the situation in order to detract attention from their own incompetence and to lay the blame at the feet of others. The two statemnets from the 6th and 7th of Feb have left a very sour taste in the mouths of controllers. Considering that there is still a process going on in the background between management and the union, these statements and press releases serve no purpose other than to inflame the situation and harden opinions.
If the iaa must issue press statements then surely the comms manager should earn her salary and reign in/counsel the management hotheads and advise them that the smart course is to say as little as possible to the press. Surely she has learnt her lesson with regards the press considering the last time where she stated "you do not have to be particulary bright to be an air traffic controller" live on national prime time radio for which she had to apologise atc staff .
If any press are interested ,the real reason that dublin and shannon towers have been closing of late is that there is not enough staff to operate and crew the positions safely.
In the shannon example there was only one controller rostered (by management) in the tower between 7pm and 9pm. The minimum safe crew is 2. The only course of action open is to close the tower as it cannot be operated safely by one controller due workload and fatigue issues. The shortfall is purely due to shortage of staff. Yet of course the iaa blame the staff for their mismanagement.Go figure. How is that industrial action?
I also fail to see how declining OPTIONAL overtime and call ins because it doesnt suit you is wildcat industrial action????? It is the staff who are highlighting the fact that in ireland there is a shortfall of atc staff and this has safety consequences-thankfully nothing has happened yet.
The IAA is a very financially well off company. It has turnover of 134 million, assets of 178 million and profits of 13 to 16 million euro every year. This is achieved while being the cheapest ATC service provider in europe. The IAA charges airlines roughly 25 to 30% of what NATS in the UK charges. It has neglible borrowings and one of the newest ( note i didn't say best!) ATC systems in europe.Don't get me wrong-being financially viable is something to be proud of and encouraged.
Air traffic levels worlwide have increased greatly but the increase in Ireland has been spectacular. Between 2005 and 2006 air traffic increased 36.7% . This was done with about 10% less ATC staff. Being lean and mean has its place but in a safety critical operation like ATC there is only so far you can push this business model.
Today in Shannon the complex system of computers and radar screens failed completely during peak lunch time traffic and again in the afternoon. All available controllers responded to the call for help in what is an emergency situation. The controllers dealt with this in a very cool-headed and professional way
(I believe that thanks must go out also to the london,scottish and brest controllers too) This was one of the days where the phrase "above and beyond the call of duty" spring to mind like it did after 9/11 and the way the IAA controllers dealt with the situation that day too.
If the staffing levels get any worse this level of care cannot be guaranteed.
Like a lot of things in the aviation world this has its genesis in other , smaller matters that now have rolled into one bigger problem.
Things like having to fight to get a fatigue break after two hours of constant controlling. It got so bad that controllers had to start submitting safety reports in order to get a fatigue break otherwise they would be left there controlling for 4+ hours. As we all know fatigue is one of the worst dangers in the aviation world.
A huge amount of work has been done by the staff on a goodwill basis. New airpace , new procedures, new equipment , longer hours with more traffic have all been delivered on the basis that the staff would be rewarded in the future. Now that the work is done, management seem to think that a few percent will do. This is a pity as it erodes more goodwill and i dont think the staff will be inclined to deliver exceptional change items on 'credit' going into the future.
But in all conflicts and disagreements there must be a resolution. Nobody likes being in these situations. Hopefully the process that is going on in the background will resolve the difficulties. Hopefully the IAA will cease slandering its own staff in the press. I think IMPACT the union have shown graet restraint and indeed professional business mannner by not conducting its business in the press. I am also sure that if necessary IMPACT will issue a statement refuting the slanderous allegations made by the IAA management.
I will finish by re-iterating that the staff are not engineering any problems, only trying to resolve a rapidly approaching critical staffing crisis caused by no planning for the future, mismanagement, no investment in staff, and penny pinching to keep costs way below industry norms.
And when is declining OPTIONAL overtime industrial action??
Yours as ever
OCK1F
(only joking!)The unfortunate upshot of all this is that the company has now fully exhausted any goodwill that was there. This unfortunately has been developing over time and has reached its natural logical conclusion.
I know that both the iaa and the press monitor forums like this so i am choosing my words carefully from here on in.
The press releases by the iaa are a disgrace. It is however fully understandable that press releases like this will be issued by the very people who have caused the situation in order to detract attention from their own incompetence and to lay the blame at the feet of others. The two statemnets from the 6th and 7th of Feb have left a very sour taste in the mouths of controllers. Considering that there is still a process going on in the background between management and the union, these statements and press releases serve no purpose other than to inflame the situation and harden opinions.
If the iaa must issue press statements then surely the comms manager should earn her salary and reign in/counsel the management hotheads and advise them that the smart course is to say as little as possible to the press. Surely she has learnt her lesson with regards the press considering the last time where she stated "you do not have to be particulary bright to be an air traffic controller" live on national prime time radio for which she had to apologise atc staff .
If any press are interested ,the real reason that dublin and shannon towers have been closing of late is that there is not enough staff to operate and crew the positions safely.
In the shannon example there was only one controller rostered (by management) in the tower between 7pm and 9pm. The minimum safe crew is 2. The only course of action open is to close the tower as it cannot be operated safely by one controller due workload and fatigue issues. The shortfall is purely due to shortage of staff. Yet of course the iaa blame the staff for their mismanagement.Go figure. How is that industrial action?
I also fail to see how declining OPTIONAL overtime and call ins because it doesnt suit you is wildcat industrial action????? It is the staff who are highlighting the fact that in ireland there is a shortfall of atc staff and this has safety consequences-thankfully nothing has happened yet.
The IAA is a very financially well off company. It has turnover of 134 million, assets of 178 million and profits of 13 to 16 million euro every year. This is achieved while being the cheapest ATC service provider in europe. The IAA charges airlines roughly 25 to 30% of what NATS in the UK charges. It has neglible borrowings and one of the newest ( note i didn't say best!) ATC systems in europe.Don't get me wrong-being financially viable is something to be proud of and encouraged.
Air traffic levels worlwide have increased greatly but the increase in Ireland has been spectacular. Between 2005 and 2006 air traffic increased 36.7% . This was done with about 10% less ATC staff. Being lean and mean has its place but in a safety critical operation like ATC there is only so far you can push this business model.
Today in Shannon the complex system of computers and radar screens failed completely during peak lunch time traffic and again in the afternoon. All available controllers responded to the call for help in what is an emergency situation. The controllers dealt with this in a very cool-headed and professional way
(I believe that thanks must go out also to the london,scottish and brest controllers too) This was one of the days where the phrase "above and beyond the call of duty" spring to mind like it did after 9/11 and the way the IAA controllers dealt with the situation that day too.If the staffing levels get any worse this level of care cannot be guaranteed.
Like a lot of things in the aviation world this has its genesis in other , smaller matters that now have rolled into one bigger problem.
Things like having to fight to get a fatigue break after two hours of constant controlling. It got so bad that controllers had to start submitting safety reports in order to get a fatigue break otherwise they would be left there controlling for 4+ hours. As we all know fatigue is one of the worst dangers in the aviation world.
A huge amount of work has been done by the staff on a goodwill basis. New airpace , new procedures, new equipment , longer hours with more traffic have all been delivered on the basis that the staff would be rewarded in the future. Now that the work is done, management seem to think that a few percent will do. This is a pity as it erodes more goodwill and i dont think the staff will be inclined to deliver exceptional change items on 'credit' going into the future.
But in all conflicts and disagreements there must be a resolution. Nobody likes being in these situations. Hopefully the process that is going on in the background will resolve the difficulties. Hopefully the IAA will cease slandering its own staff in the press. I think IMPACT the union have shown graet restraint and indeed professional business mannner by not conducting its business in the press. I am also sure that if necessary IMPACT will issue a statement refuting the slanderous allegations made by the IAA management.
I will finish by re-iterating that the staff are not engineering any problems, only trying to resolve a rapidly approaching critical staffing crisis caused by no planning for the future, mismanagement, no investment in staff, and penny pinching to keep costs way below industry norms.
And when is declining OPTIONAL overtime industrial action??
Yours as ever
OCK1F
Last edited by ock1f; 7th Feb 2008 at 19:47.
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What else do you expect from a company that is run by an ACCOUNTANT. He only cares about money and where they can save it, not actually about SAFETY as they claim.
Its cheaper for them to have controllers working overtime than to have too employ more staff. As a result a controller working OVERTIME is going to be tired and less alert.
They offered an overtime system that saw you getting two options on overtime and the third time they asked you to work you could NOT say NO you had to come into work irrespective of whether you had a life outside of work.
Its cheaper for them to have controllers working overtime than to have too employ more staff. As a result a controller working OVERTIME is going to be tired and less alert.
They offered an overtime system that saw you getting two options on overtime and the third time they asked you to work you could NOT say NO you had to come into work irrespective of whether you had a life outside of work.
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It will be interesting to see how the negotiations etc pan out.
As an outsider looking in though, all support to the ATCOs, and fingers crossed IMPACT are staying quiet for a reason, and not for want of anything to contribute!
As an outsider looking in though, all support to the ATCOs, and fingers crossed IMPACT are staying quiet for a reason, and not for want of anything to contribute!
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"I am also sure that if necessary IMPACT will issue a statement refuting the slanderous allegations made by the IAA management"
It is necessary. It's time to fight fire with fire. You don't get anywhere by being "nice" and cooperative. Look where it got us so far, a management that clearly don't respect their workforce and believe they can take us for a ride.
It's finally time to play hardball. The sooner the union realises that, the better we will all be.
It is necessary. It's time to fight fire with fire. You don't get anywhere by being "nice" and cooperative. Look where it got us so far, a management that clearly don't respect their workforce and believe they can take us for a ride.
It's finally time to play hardball. The sooner the union realises that, the better we will all be.
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While i have no connection with Impact apart from being a member, I do feel that by not conducting a slagging match in the press that not only have IMPACT gained the high moral ground ,but they have shown to all that they are a way more professional outfit, with way more 'brains' and intelligence than the IAA management.
Having said that, the two press releases do require a measured public response in order to set the record straight.
A couple of weeks ago when Dub tower and airpace were closed due staffing RTE did a quick survey outside Dublin airport , asking passengers what they thought about the controllers "striking" (ignorance is terrible!) All stated that while they didn't want to be delayed-they would prefer that than having a tired, fatigued ,overworked controller looking after their flight. As one woman said " the one person in the airport you dont want tired and distracted is the controller" And so say all of us-except the IAA management
Interestingly management don't do shift work , are home at 530pm every evening,get to sleep in their own beds,are not up at 4 am working heavy traffic in order to generate income to pay the wages of EVERYONE in company, and im pretty sure they dont do SIX duties in FIVE days. Ever get the feeling of why are you busting your balls when you are obviuosly no appreciated.
Its not like we get a christmas bonus, its not like we get a christmas party, its not like we get health care , its not like we get ANYTHING that would make you feel like a valued member of a highly profitable and successful company. But are we asking for any of these things-NO-all we are asking for is more staff
Having just re-read the IAA's press releases it struck me how angry and bitter the author/s were. The worrying thing is that these took quite a while to write and compose so whoever it was , i do fear for their mental state and peptic ulcer
As a consequence of the caustic press releases it has certainly increased the angry and militant feelings amonst staff. " You reap what you sow"
There is so much BS in the press releases it almost beggers belief.
The IAA contend that staff /IMPACT are orchestrating walk-outs to force management to give us more money. As far as i'm aware the union has not asked for anymore money for the call-ins or overtime. What it has asked for is more staff , and a guaranteed system of call-ins where staff will voluntarily agree to work X number of extra duties per year and there-by guaranteeing adequate staffing levels at all times.
Agreeing to give up X number of rest days per year to help the company meet its staffing requirements would be compensated as would any actual extra duties worked (as is the situation now , except they cannot guarantee that they will get anybody to come in ,-which is the problem ,-leaving the staff on duty exposed to the intolerable risk of being overworked , fatigued and not having enough staff to cope safely with the traffic levels)
Any way I'm signing off for the night
yours as ever
OCK1F
Having said that, the two press releases do require a measured public response in order to set the record straight.
A couple of weeks ago when Dub tower and airpace were closed due staffing RTE did a quick survey outside Dublin airport , asking passengers what they thought about the controllers "striking" (ignorance is terrible!) All stated that while they didn't want to be delayed-they would prefer that than having a tired, fatigued ,overworked controller looking after their flight. As one woman said " the one person in the airport you dont want tired and distracted is the controller" And so say all of us-except the IAA management
Interestingly management don't do shift work , are home at 530pm every evening,get to sleep in their own beds,are not up at 4 am working heavy traffic in order to generate income to pay the wages of EVERYONE in company, and im pretty sure they dont do SIX duties in FIVE days. Ever get the feeling of why are you busting your balls when you are obviuosly no appreciated.
Its not like we get a christmas bonus, its not like we get a christmas party, its not like we get health care , its not like we get ANYTHING that would make you feel like a valued member of a highly profitable and successful company. But are we asking for any of these things-NO-all we are asking for is more staff
Having just re-read the IAA's press releases it struck me how angry and bitter the author/s were. The worrying thing is that these took quite a while to write and compose so whoever it was , i do fear for their mental state and peptic ulcer
As a consequence of the caustic press releases it has certainly increased the angry and militant feelings amonst staff. " You reap what you sow"
There is so much BS in the press releases it almost beggers belief.
The IAA contend that staff /IMPACT are orchestrating walk-outs to force management to give us more money. As far as i'm aware the union has not asked for anymore money for the call-ins or overtime. What it has asked for is more staff , and a guaranteed system of call-ins where staff will voluntarily agree to work X number of extra duties per year and there-by guaranteeing adequate staffing levels at all times.
Agreeing to give up X number of rest days per year to help the company meet its staffing requirements would be compensated as would any actual extra duties worked (as is the situation now , except they cannot guarantee that they will get anybody to come in ,-which is the problem ,-leaving the staff on duty exposed to the intolerable risk of being overworked , fatigued and not having enough staff to cope safely with the traffic levels)
Any way I'm signing off for the night
yours as ever
OCK1F
Last edited by ock1f; 7th Feb 2008 at 21:10.
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Your observations on the press release are very astute ock1f. Having reread it myself it suddenly struck me that they have come to believe their own conspiracies.
They really do believe that recent tower closures were a deliberate ploy, and that money is the motivating factor.
You expect a certain spin in such literature, but to say that ATCO's orchestrated staff shortages is frankly, libellous, as it calls into question our very professionalism.
They really do believe that recent tower closures were a deliberate ploy, and that money is the motivating factor.
You expect a certain spin in such literature, but to say that ATCO's orchestrated staff shortages is frankly, libellous, as it calls into question our very professionalism.
Last edited by goodworker; 1st Mar 2008 at 06:32.
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All of this would certainly make one wonder; exactly how far are the IAA willing to push their control staff before something is done to sort this situation out?
What blinkered idiot decided that 6 shifts in 5 days is conducive to being well rested, particularly when the shifts all start at peculiar hours of the day and night? How have they gotten away with that gem?!
Does there have to be a hull loss and multiple deaths before somebody finally realises that something needs to be written into law to ensure that ATCO's are properly rested before coming on shift??
And if that means ensuring there are adequate staff on the books to cover all situations, rather than relying on goodwill and/or compulsory overtime, then so be it! As has been seen in the last couple of weeks, it is very easy for management to p!ss the goodwill of the workforce up the wall!
But then, that utopian ideal is not likely to happen when the entity that would be responsible for making and regulating/enforcing such laws is the very commercial organisation that is at the heart of this problem!!
How have the Irish government allowed this situation with a self-regulating service-provider to persist for so long??
What blinkered idiot decided that 6 shifts in 5 days is conducive to being well rested, particularly when the shifts all start at peculiar hours of the day and night? How have they gotten away with that gem?!
Does there have to be a hull loss and multiple deaths before somebody finally realises that something needs to be written into law to ensure that ATCO's are properly rested before coming on shift??
And if that means ensuring there are adequate staff on the books to cover all situations, rather than relying on goodwill and/or compulsory overtime, then so be it! As has been seen in the last couple of weeks, it is very easy for management to p!ss the goodwill of the workforce up the wall!
But then, that utopian ideal is not likely to happen when the entity that would be responsible for making and regulating/enforcing such laws is the very commercial organisation that is at the heart of this problem!!
How have the Irish government allowed this situation with a self-regulating service-provider to persist for so long??
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Curiously the IAA seem to have removed their most recent press releases from their website.
For an organisation that claims to be concerned about safety they have a great ability to increasingly antagonise their controller staff. Stress levels were raised by their blatant slandering of their staff.
However two system failures in Shannon withinin hours of the IAA boasting of their '200 million euro' state of the art equipment could not have been better timed even if it had been 'orchestrated'!
And for those in the IAA who seem to be becoming even more out of touch with their controller staff - money is not the issue, inadequate staffing is.
For an organisation that claims to be concerned about safety they have a great ability to increasingly antagonise their controller staff. Stress levels were raised by their blatant slandering of their staff.
However two system failures in Shannon withinin hours of the IAA boasting of their '200 million euro' state of the art equipment could not have been better timed even if it had been 'orchestrated'!
And for those in the IAA who seem to be becoming even more out of touch with their controller staff - money is not the issue, inadequate staffing is.
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WANTED:
300 3 foot lenghts of 2" x 4"
300 square pieces of Cardbord with "strike on Here" printed on both sides
4 used oil drums suitable for using as makeshift fireplaces for standing around at the gates of ATC Centres and towers.
1 national union with the
to back a full stoppage strike
300 3 foot lenghts of 2" x 4"
300 square pieces of Cardbord with "strike on Here" printed on both sides
4 used oil drums suitable for using as makeshift fireplaces for standing around at the gates of ATC Centres and towers.
1 national union with the
to back a full stoppage strike
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It would seem the IAA and Airservices Australia public relations hacks went to the same school for Bu%%sh!^ spinning. Blame the ATC's - it's not management's fault.
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Italian management had same school too..
According to those "genius" (most of all never been in a radar room) we are the guys paid (too much) to watch some green blips on tv..
good luck to the irish collegues
According to those "genius" (most of all never been in a radar room) we are the guys paid (too much) to watch some green blips on tv..
good luck to the irish collegues
Last edited by deci; 10th Feb 2008 at 07:35.
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dedededede.......Yesterday, 7th February, the Shannon Air Traffic Control System staged two 1 hour "wildcat" failures in solidarity with Controllers concerns over safety. Level headed controllers worked their Bcks off to ensure that all planes were accounted for in case the picture disappeared into about a 3 inch square and duly dissappeared down a hole in the middle.....Just picture the scene at Shannon!!!!.......
...Before any press release regarding same, Controllers would like to point out that they DID NOT ORCHESTRATE this stoppage. In a recent press release by management they assure customers that....
UNtrue...The last group of controllers have been working for the past year and a half....The press release fails to mention that this class of controllers were let go by the company once their initial training was finished as they no longer had a requirement for them...only to want them back again a year later!!!
Its unlikely that what happened yesterday will have any impact on the minds of management as sure its JUST ANOTHER DAY
...but if by any chance it does, this was no ordinary day. WE WANT MORE STAFF, WE WANT A BETTER ROSTER, and if your handing out any of that €15m or so profit, you might just think about us....so STRAIGHTEN UP AND FLY RIGHT!!!
cks off to ensure that all planes were accounted for in case the picture disappeared into about a 3 inch square and duly dissappeared down a hole in the middle.....Just picture the scene at Shannon!!!!..........Before any press release regarding same, Controllers would like to point out that they DID NOT ORCHESTRATE this stoppage. In a recent press release by management they assure customers that....
The Authority has spent nearly €200 million since 2000 in providing Ireland with one of the most modern Air Traffic Control Systems with numerous safety features giving our controllers one of the most advanced systems to work with and to handle increased traffic levels
The last group of controllers graduated in November 2007
Its unlikely that what happened yesterday will have any impact on the minds of management as sure its JUST ANOTHER DAY
...but if by any chance it does, this was no ordinary day. WE WANT MORE STAFF, WE WANT A BETTER ROSTER, and if your handing out any of that €15m or so profit, you might just think about us....so STRAIGHTEN UP AND FLY RIGHT!!!
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A recent roster proposal in Dublin had ATCOs work the cycle 6 on 3 off, 6 on 3 off, 7 on 2 off.
Seven days in a row? I, for one, just manage to scrape through the E on day five of the current cycle.
Can you imagine working on day 7 and our state of the art system decides to go belly-up again.
If the system cannot stay up and running, the very least we should be doing is making sure ATCOs are.
Seven days in a row? I, for one, just manage to scrape through the E on day five of the current cycle.
Can you imagine working on day 7 and our state of the art system decides to go belly-up again.
If the system cannot stay up and running, the very least we should be doing is making sure ATCOs are.
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AS you are aware the ballot to give the union the mandate for industrial action closed today. I haven't heard the result yet but i am fairly confident that it will give resounding support to the motion
I also note , both amongst some of my colleagues and some posters here that there is a rising feeling of militancy. While i share those feelings too I must say i hope we don't have to go outside the gate. All out strike and a full stoppage is the nuclear option-the final one left. The one thing about nuclear options is that they are M.A.D or mutually assured destruction. Both sides would suffer severe damage , damage that could be irreparable. Both staff and the company would be assured of sustaining damage and things would get very dirty ,very quickly and be very very unpleasant. At the end of the day a resolution to the conflict would still have to be found so better to find the reolution without the big red button being pressed.
While i am saying that we should be very carefull about an all out strike and that it should be our last option- i dont want anyone , especially management, to be in any doubt that the strength of feeling ,resolve , and capability to carry out a strike is there. Peoples minds and opinions have been very much hardened and resolved over the last few months to seeing this thru' all the way now and both the management and the union should pay heed to this. This resolve DOES extend to a strike that would see no ATC in Ireland at all.
So if all out strike is our nuclear option , i think there are many other legitmate ways of getting our point across.Obviously an Official ban on overtime and call-ins. That would hurt straight away. Working to rule- demanding your break every two hours , demanding that your sector is split when the traffic levels exceed the agreed maximums (like we did during the summer when fighting for our breaks ) and then seeing management scurrying around trying to get the staff to appear out of thin air. There are many , many ways taht we can prove that we are short of staff. I'm sure that controllers can be quite inventive at such things if and when the need arises
The question in my head and already asked here is-how far are the mangement prepared to go before they are willing to swallow their pride, admit that they are wrong and finally agree to do something constructive about the situation. Not even Ian Paisley says "NO" all the time anymore , but that is what management are doing. I suppose one of the hardest things anyone and everyone faces in life is admitting that you are wrong. Hopefully it won't take too much more to make them see the error of their ways and open their eyes to the REAL situation (not just the situation they think thats there)
At times like this other ,broader issues arise too. Our Chief EXEC is well known for stating that in his opinion controllers are over-paid and under worked. It is also well known that management (including former controllers who have gone over to the dark side
) do NOT understand controlling at all.
The huge responsibility and associated stress of guiding tens of thousands of REAL PEOPLE around the sky and guaranteeing their safety can only really be appreciated by the people who do this job. We have shown many many people around ATC centers and towers , even had peolple plug into positions for a solid week but most still leave without a real understanding of what we do. I can remember myself years ago thinking that its only like a game on a big TV-little did i know back then! That is why when the people at the coal face-the only ones who truly understand the situation and the dangers that lie ahead-when they speak up it is imperative that the powers that be LISTEN .
The only comparason i can make is to a captain or pilot-in-command of an aircraft. When the executive controllers (to clarify thats all controllers) who have the responsibilty in their sector of running a safe operation in conjuction with the planner , and whom i would compare to a PIC and the FO of an aircraft, all unite and say we have a major issue here , this then should be heeded. Can you imagine all of the flight crews of an airline (like British airways for example ) saying we have an issue with not having enough staff to safely run the flightdeck and we are tired ,fatigued and are being ignored by our management there would be uproar and heads in management would roll. But because we work in ATC that for some reason doesnt happen. Go figure that one.
There is a view amongst the very highest levels of management in this company that see the operations room as a big black hole into which vast sums of money disappear and that controllers are soaking up all this money with their huge salaries and living the high-life as a result. There are quite a few people in the IAA who think of controllers as lower life forms who really have a nice easy cushy job and a huge salary for doing what? Well all we do is watch blips on a TV screen all day-isn't that right
Conversely the view inside the operations room looking out, is that we are the ones generating 90% of the income of this company and therefore by our hard work we earn and pay not only our own salary but everyone else's in the company too. I might point out that Our chief execs 330,000 euro salary and our press officers salary and all managements salary come from the money earned from providing aircraft with an air traffic control service . Who actually provides this service and generates this income? AIR TRAFFIC CONTROLLERS DO.
But this is a much wider issue of how staff view management and how management view staff. Mutual respect and appreciation would be ideal and i would love for that to be the case. However i think its plain from my posts and others too, that this has been deteriorating for quite a while. If postives come out of this -and i hope we do get a positive change-then i would like to see both sides appreciate the other in a real way.
I know that there are direct entry people reading all this and thinking 'jasus no way i'm going there '
But i would say please please apply. We obviously need staff and we needed them yesterday so as a direct entry you are in a very good negotiating position . Obviously i would counsel that you get some very good legal advice, you do in depth research and nail down your terms nad conditions with a nail gun.
It is very interesting that the two press release of the 6th and 7th of feb that slandered the staff have been removed. Has the comms manager come to her senses? Did they finally realise that chucking insults at your own staff in the press isn't the smartest thing? OR did the read this thread on pprune and realise the error of their ways
Finally there are no scheduled meetings between the union and management for the next two weeks. Considering that industrial action has just been authorised today surely it would make sense for both sides to continue to meet and try and resolve these issues. Two weeks of industrial action will no doubt see things turn unpleasant and with no hope of negotiated progress i would prefer to see the two sides actively talking to each other. I dont want to see this drag on for longer than necessary and as i have said before all conflicts and disagreemnets eventually need a resolution.
Of course any resolution requires management to do something other than just say no
Your as ever
OCK1F
I also note , both amongst some of my colleagues and some posters here that there is a rising feeling of militancy. While i share those feelings too I must say i hope we don't have to go outside the gate. All out strike and a full stoppage is the nuclear option-the final one left. The one thing about nuclear options is that they are M.A.D or mutually assured destruction. Both sides would suffer severe damage , damage that could be irreparable. Both staff and the company would be assured of sustaining damage and things would get very dirty ,very quickly and be very very unpleasant. At the end of the day a resolution to the conflict would still have to be found so better to find the reolution without the big red button being pressed.
While i am saying that we should be very carefull about an all out strike and that it should be our last option- i dont want anyone , especially management, to be in any doubt that the strength of feeling ,resolve , and capability to carry out a strike is there. Peoples minds and opinions have been very much hardened and resolved over the last few months to seeing this thru' all the way now and both the management and the union should pay heed to this. This resolve DOES extend to a strike that would see no ATC in Ireland at all.
So if all out strike is our nuclear option , i think there are many other legitmate ways of getting our point across.Obviously an Official ban on overtime and call-ins. That would hurt straight away. Working to rule- demanding your break every two hours , demanding that your sector is split when the traffic levels exceed the agreed maximums (like we did during the summer when fighting for our breaks ) and then seeing management scurrying around trying to get the staff to appear out of thin air. There are many , many ways taht we can prove that we are short of staff. I'm sure that controllers can be quite inventive at such things if and when the need arises
The question in my head and already asked here is-how far are the mangement prepared to go before they are willing to swallow their pride, admit that they are wrong and finally agree to do something constructive about the situation. Not even Ian Paisley says "NO" all the time anymore , but that is what management are doing. I suppose one of the hardest things anyone and everyone faces in life is admitting that you are wrong. Hopefully it won't take too much more to make them see the error of their ways and open their eyes to the REAL situation (not just the situation they think thats there)
At times like this other ,broader issues arise too. Our Chief EXEC is well known for stating that in his opinion controllers are over-paid and under worked. It is also well known that management (including former controllers who have gone over to the dark side
) do NOT understand controlling at all. The huge responsibility and associated stress of guiding tens of thousands of REAL PEOPLE around the sky and guaranteeing their safety can only really be appreciated by the people who do this job. We have shown many many people around ATC centers and towers , even had peolple plug into positions for a solid week but most still leave without a real understanding of what we do. I can remember myself years ago thinking that its only like a game on a big TV-little did i know back then! That is why when the people at the coal face-the only ones who truly understand the situation and the dangers that lie ahead-when they speak up it is imperative that the powers that be LISTEN .
The only comparason i can make is to a captain or pilot-in-command of an aircraft. When the executive controllers (to clarify thats all controllers) who have the responsibilty in their sector of running a safe operation in conjuction with the planner , and whom i would compare to a PIC and the FO of an aircraft, all unite and say we have a major issue here , this then should be heeded. Can you imagine all of the flight crews of an airline (like British airways for example ) saying we have an issue with not having enough staff to safely run the flightdeck and we are tired ,fatigued and are being ignored by our management there would be uproar and heads in management would roll. But because we work in ATC that for some reason doesnt happen. Go figure that one.
There is a view amongst the very highest levels of management in this company that see the operations room as a big black hole into which vast sums of money disappear and that controllers are soaking up all this money with their huge salaries and living the high-life as a result. There are quite a few people in the IAA who think of controllers as lower life forms who really have a nice easy cushy job and a huge salary for doing what? Well all we do is watch blips on a TV screen all day-isn't that right
Conversely the view inside the operations room looking out, is that we are the ones generating 90% of the income of this company and therefore by our hard work we earn and pay not only our own salary but everyone else's in the company too. I might point out that Our chief execs 330,000 euro salary and our press officers salary and all managements salary come from the money earned from providing aircraft with an air traffic control service . Who actually provides this service and generates this income? AIR TRAFFIC CONTROLLERS DO.
But this is a much wider issue of how staff view management and how management view staff. Mutual respect and appreciation would be ideal and i would love for that to be the case. However i think its plain from my posts and others too, that this has been deteriorating for quite a while. If postives come out of this -and i hope we do get a positive change-then i would like to see both sides appreciate the other in a real way.
I know that there are direct entry people reading all this and thinking 'jasus no way i'm going there '
But i would say please please apply. We obviously need staff and we needed them yesterday so as a direct entry you are in a very good negotiating position . Obviously i would counsel that you get some very good legal advice, you do in depth research and nail down your terms nad conditions with a nail gun.
It is very interesting that the two press release of the 6th and 7th of feb that slandered the staff have been removed. Has the comms manager come to her senses? Did they finally realise that chucking insults at your own staff in the press isn't the smartest thing? OR did the read this thread on pprune and realise the error of their ways
Finally there are no scheduled meetings between the union and management for the next two weeks. Considering that industrial action has just been authorised today surely it would make sense for both sides to continue to meet and try and resolve these issues. Two weeks of industrial action will no doubt see things turn unpleasant and with no hope of negotiated progress i would prefer to see the two sides actively talking to each other. I dont want to see this drag on for longer than necessary and as i have said before all conflicts and disagreemnets eventually need a resolution.
Of course any resolution requires management to do something other than just say no
Your as ever
OCK1F
Last edited by ock1f; 8th Feb 2008 at 18:18.
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Goodworker -good to know that ye recognise the darwinian truth that shannon are top of pile when it comes to earning power 
But i didnt mean my post to be taken in that manner. The idea that i was trying to get across is that its all the controllers in the three ops rooms across the company that generate 90 % of the company's income. It is pure chance of geography and historical precedence that shannon generates more per flight mainly due to the huge size of the airspace under the control of shannon. It has nothing to do with the exact earning power of one controller compared to another controller.
On a related topic- it is really good to see such unity and uniformity of agreement across the 3 groups of controllers (dub,crk and sha) . This unity has not always been there in the past but is good to see it there now .
Yours as ever
OCK1F
But i didnt mean my post to be taken in that manner. The idea that i was trying to get across is that its all the controllers in the three ops rooms across the company that generate 90 % of the company's income. It is pure chance of geography and historical precedence that shannon generates more per flight mainly due to the huge size of the airspace under the control of shannon. It has nothing to do with the exact earning power of one controller compared to another controller.
On a related topic- it is really good to see such unity and uniformity of agreement across the 3 groups of controllers (dub,crk and sha) . This unity has not always been there in the past but is good to see it there now .
Yours as ever
OCK1F
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In the shannon example there was only one controller rostered (by management) in the tower between 7pm and 9pm. The minimum safe crew is 2. The only course of action open is to close the tower as it cannot be operated safely by one controller due workload and fatigue issues.
Are you saying that Shannon requires both Ground and Air open at such times because of traffic levels?
Are you also saying that compared to the UK busy airports / sectors where traffic levels during busy periods cause the usual max time between breaks to be reduced below the statutory 2 hours, the combined Air/Ground position at Shannon would be equally busy and require enhanced break intervals?
Are you saying that flow control was not an option while a combined air/ground position was operated at Shannon?
IS there also an ATSA position?
How many approach controllers are there? Is there split arrival / departure positions or split director / final positions? How many approach radar controllers are there in that period and how many are tower qualified?
Just how many movements was there filed for that period?
Thanks for the answers,
Regards,
DFC
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DFC- no problem with the questions and i will do my best to answer them. However a few caveats--1) i'm only one voice and don't have all the answers! 2) my figures are open to correction but are certainly very close 3) Full answers on some topics cannot be divulged at the moment due obvious reasons
How many movements were filed for that period?
Havent got a clue but wouldnt have been that many. However the stituation that presented itself left no option but to close the tower purely on safety grounds for all traffic.
How many approach controllers etc?
We have about 15 approach controllers in total.None are shannon tower rated. I think two would be on duty working in rotation. Shannon APP is one postion working both arrivals and deps.The most important fact is that shannon APP is run out of the dublin center. So this makes shannon APP irrelevant to any issue with shannon TOWER closing.
Is there an ATSA postion?
NO atsa-in fact its an obligation on the ground controller to operate the airport authority's movements computer-yes the one they use to send out the bills to the airlines.Nothing to do with ATC but we still have to fulfill our written obligations as staff. So no atsa at all.
Was there flow control?
No flow control-its against the IAA religion to put on flow control. Flow control are dirty dirty words as far as the IAA are concerned. However flow control would have been irrelevant anyway as the tower was shut.
There are questions about whether the airlines could have arrived and landed without anyone in the tower but that brings up huge questions about the airlines insurance obligations,whether its legal or not and a whole host of other questions which a court ultimately would be the decider of.
Einn compared to busy UK airports?
Of course einn is not like heathrow etc-its a small backwater airport on the very fringes of europe that just happens to have a very long runway and an IAA control tower. But as for combining air/ground that according the company's own rules is not possible.
Do controllers need a break before every 2 hour period is up?
I think ,but cant say 100%, that most controllers in non peak/busy times will work the full two hours but they definitely need a break after that. Its very important that once the two hour mark is hit that there is a break available (which has not always been the case). Its also not acceptable for the main atlantic diversionary airport to have only one controller on in case of incapacitation.
Does shannon require both ground and air open at such times?
Yes-company rules.
To be honest its very disappointing that such a situation would develop in the first place. A situation totally out of the controllers hands but most definitely within managements. A situation that left the one tower controller on duty in a terrible postion. As air traffic controllers we want to work-we want to control the aircraft and provide the service we are good at and we dont want to be in these situations but a time comes when you have to say sorry i cannot in all conscience work in such a situation, i cannot tolerate being put in a situation where rules will be broken, and safety potentially compromised and its our professional duty to protect safety ,first and foremost, and everything after that if safety is compromised, or has the potential to be compromised is irrelevant. But the most telling thing of all was that it was mangement who shut the tower on safety grounds. They obviously realised anything else would mean violating their own rules.
Yours as ever
OCK1F
How many movements were filed for that period?
Havent got a clue but wouldnt have been that many. However the stituation that presented itself left no option but to close the tower purely on safety grounds for all traffic.
How many approach controllers etc?
We have about 15 approach controllers in total.None are shannon tower rated. I think two would be on duty working in rotation. Shannon APP is one postion working both arrivals and deps.The most important fact is that shannon APP is run out of the dublin center. So this makes shannon APP irrelevant to any issue with shannon TOWER closing.
Is there an ATSA postion?
NO atsa-in fact its an obligation on the ground controller to operate the airport authority's movements computer-yes the one they use to send out the bills to the airlines.Nothing to do with ATC but we still have to fulfill our written obligations as staff. So no atsa at all.
Was there flow control?
No flow control-its against the IAA religion to put on flow control. Flow control are dirty dirty words as far as the IAA are concerned. However flow control would have been irrelevant anyway as the tower was shut.
There are questions about whether the airlines could have arrived and landed without anyone in the tower but that brings up huge questions about the airlines insurance obligations,whether its legal or not and a whole host of other questions which a court ultimately would be the decider of.
Einn compared to busy UK airports?
Of course einn is not like heathrow etc-its a small backwater airport on the very fringes of europe that just happens to have a very long runway and an IAA control tower. But as for combining air/ground that according the company's own rules is not possible.
Do controllers need a break before every 2 hour period is up?
I think ,but cant say 100%, that most controllers in non peak/busy times will work the full two hours but they definitely need a break after that. Its very important that once the two hour mark is hit that there is a break available (which has not always been the case). Its also not acceptable for the main atlantic diversionary airport to have only one controller on in case of incapacitation.
Does shannon require both ground and air open at such times?
Yes-company rules.
To be honest its very disappointing that such a situation would develop in the first place. A situation totally out of the controllers hands but most definitely within managements. A situation that left the one tower controller on duty in a terrible postion. As air traffic controllers we want to work-we want to control the aircraft and provide the service we are good at and we dont want to be in these situations but a time comes when you have to say sorry i cannot in all conscience work in such a situation, i cannot tolerate being put in a situation where rules will be broken, and safety potentially compromised and its our professional duty to protect safety ,first and foremost, and everything after that if safety is compromised, or has the potential to be compromised is irrelevant. But the most telling thing of all was that it was mangement who shut the tower on safety grounds. They obviously realised anything else would mean violating their own rules.
Yours as ever
OCK1F