ATC VOLUNTARY OVERTIME BAN: Dublin Flights Delayed 25th January
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I see according to the latest Ryanair rant on their website that they want our payment figures released into the "pubic" domain. Seems a pretty good place for their own attempt at figures so far 
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Quote
"Recall that before the pivotal meeting in Jan where things came to a head, there was a midweek duty for which no-one could be found to do overtime after 17 calls. We got through Christmas by the skin of our teeth."
I Also remember a saturday during the Summer of '07 when they were in dire straits expecting w/m's and the ops man. to sit into position when salvation came from most unlikely scources..........
So much for Olearys assertion that there was no shortage during Christmas and Summer.
"Recall that before the pivotal meeting in Jan where things came to a head, there was a midweek duty for which no-one could be found to do overtime after 17 calls. We got through Christmas by the skin of our teeth."
I Also remember a saturday during the Summer of '07 when they were in dire straits expecting w/m's and the ops man. to sit into position when salvation came from most unlikely scources..........
So much for Olearys assertion that there was no shortage during Christmas and Summer.
Last edited by norby; 21st Feb 2008 at 22:56.
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Leary just comes across as a gob****e. Yer Union Rep stayed dignified and got the last word in.
All the best from the right-hand island, folks, and as a chum of mine is fond of saying, keep 'er lit!
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Don't Mess with the best
Gentlermen , I don't think we should be picking a fight with mol aka (patrick doherty) mc(johnny coyle) and his mob. They are formidable oponents who always fight fairly and never hit below the belt.
http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=fQzYnbljZ9Y
http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=fQzYnbljZ9Y
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Just read that Ryanair rant....funny! not as funny as 20 major though and not as well informed
"Ryanair has confirmed with people involved in the LRC negotiations last week that IMPACT are demanding the following:"
Wonder who that was?
Hows this for an idea.
After we settle this we take our 15% pay rise, do a €1200 days ot and club together to sue the Gobby one for slander libel stress posession of an offensive mouth.
then use the court settlement to go on the piss and all go sick the next day!
"Ryanair has confirmed with people involved in the LRC negotiations last week that IMPACT are demanding the following:"
Wonder who that was?
Hows this for an idea.
After we settle this we take our 15% pay rise, do a €1200 days ot and club together to sue the Gobby one for slander libel stress posession of an offensive mouth.
then use the court settlement to go on the piss and all go sick the next day!
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They want to divert you - they need to change the agenda!
Don’t get carried away – some of the anti MOL rants smack of paranoia. You may not love or even like the guy – you may even hate him BUT he (and his team) have transformed Irish and indeed European aviation way beyond anything that anyone would have forecast when MOL joined RYR in 91. He knows the value of publicity and he sure knows how to get a rise out of controllers. Thousands of us directly and indirectly owe the existence of our jobs to the low fare revolution. More to the point beware of the other Mick (L of Impact) who is still smarting from his Supreme Court drubbing at the hands of MOL which he (ML) styled as “a temporary set back” but then waved the white (albeit well soiled) flag when not showing at the LC. Sending ML to bat against MOL (especially on RTE) is like bringing a knife to a gunfight. Stick to the basic argument – unlimited, unregulated, un-agreed overtime is BAD for controllers and BAD for the ATC system – you CAN’T lose on this one; but you will lose if you allow others to muddy the waters or should that be cloud the sky!<
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That old news story from 17 jan
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How many safety reports have been submitted regarding the lack of staff, and the excessive overtime?
------------
Have a read of the following post I made; I have highlighted the bits you missed.
I have highlighted some other pertinent bits;
Stop calling the pubic stupid and at the same time expecting them to support you.
If overtime is a safety issue then make safety reports and do not do it just like you would not do anything else that is unsafe.
If you think that it is a safety issue but with more money you will do it anyway then why are you complaining when the public perception is that this is about money?
-----------
How many staff have retired in the past 6 months? Since general sickness levels generally follow a definite pattern in most large organisations then there will have been other times of the year where lots of overtime was required above the usual overtime levels. How many safety reports were issued in those cases?
ATCO's are trying to pull the safety card despite never having a problem prior to this month and provided that they get more money and the ability to self manage they will do the overtime again and still not find it unsafe.
You are shooting yourselves in both feet while standing on your hands!
The CAA and NATS were one and the same when the scheme of regulating controller hours came into being. Can't claim that having NATS separate from the CAA has made any difference there.
The NATS handles several times the traffic as the IAA with a fraction of the airspace volume. Required staffing levels are less. Thus you have an organisation using less staff to shift more traffic in less airspace...........and you guy's want to use it as a model. Horrray at last you have something realsitic to aim for. Why not ask for their pay levels also........actually don't cause that would in many cases cause a reduction and based on the minimum number of validations to have permanent employment many ATCO's would be faced with a train or loose their job position.
Regards,
DFC
------------
Originally Posted by alwaysmoving
- DFC must be IAA management....he will not accept that the IAA is responsible for the staff shortage...he likes telling everyone how much he makes....... and he's stuck in the early 90's......
I have highlighted some other pertinent bits;
12 February 11:19 Post #132:
I think that it is clear to those in the business that the IAA have made poor decisions regarding both the staffing levels required to provide a service and having the staff in place to meet their own (over the top in some cases) requirements.
Part of the process to solve the problem has to be a rationalisation of over the top staffing levels and H24 Air / Ground at Shannon is probably the best example.
If the IAA (wrongly) require 100 controllers at any time to staff 50 positions plus more staff to provide breaks then if it is found that 25 of those positions could be operated (are operated in more busy units) on a single person basis a step should be made towards more realistic staffing levels and avoiding zero rate flow control on some positions.
However, going from a rate of 2 movements per ATCO per hour to zero is not much of a change
To be taken seriously in this situation, ATCOs and their representatives should be not only pressing the IAA for more staff but should be pressing for more realistic staffing levels which will put the current staff to better use.
One does not have to be an accountant to see that more staff = more costs. But inefficent working practices (over staffing requirements) = more cost also.
One does not want the public perception to be of an overstaffed ex civil service workforce who are not worked very hard calling for more staff to avoid having to work half as hard as other ATCOs elsewhere in Europe.
The public needs to be properly briefed regarding the true situation and what ATCOs propose to change it - not just the give us more people or we will close you down argument.
Regards,
DFC
I think that it is clear to those in the business that the IAA have made poor decisions regarding both the staffing levels required to provide a service and having the staff in place to meet their own (over the top in some cases) requirements.
Part of the process to solve the problem has to be a rationalisation of over the top staffing levels and H24 Air / Ground at Shannon is probably the best example.
If the IAA (wrongly) require 100 controllers at any time to staff 50 positions plus more staff to provide breaks then if it is found that 25 of those positions could be operated (are operated in more busy units) on a single person basis a step should be made towards more realistic staffing levels and avoiding zero rate flow control on some positions.
However, going from a rate of 2 movements per ATCO per hour to zero is not much of a change
To be taken seriously in this situation, ATCOs and their representatives should be not only pressing the IAA for more staff but should be pressing for more realistic staffing levels which will put the current staff to better use.
One does not have to be an accountant to see that more staff = more costs. But inefficent working practices (over staffing requirements) = more cost also.
One does not want the public perception to be of an overstaffed ex civil service workforce who are not worked very hard calling for more staff to avoid having to work half as hard as other ATCOs elsewhere in Europe.
The public needs to be properly briefed regarding the true situation and what ATCOs propose to change it - not just the give us more people or we will close you down argument.
Regards,
DFC
If overtime is a safety issue then make safety reports and do not do it just like you would not do anything else that is unsafe.
If you think that it is a safety issue but with more money you will do it anyway then why are you complaining when the public perception is that this is about money?
-----------
How many staff have retired in the past 6 months? Since general sickness levels generally follow a definite pattern in most large organisations then there will have been other times of the year where lots of overtime was required above the usual overtime levels. How many safety reports were issued in those cases?
ATCO's are trying to pull the safety card despite never having a problem prior to this month and provided that they get more money and the ability to self manage they will do the overtime again and still not find it unsafe.
You are shooting yourselves in both feet while standing on your hands!
The CAA and NATS were one and the same when the scheme of regulating controller hours came into being. Can't claim that having NATS separate from the CAA has made any difference there.
The NATS handles several times the traffic as the IAA with a fraction of the airspace volume. Required staffing levels are less. Thus you have an organisation using less staff to shift more traffic in less airspace...........and you guy's want to use it as a model. Horrray at last you have something realsitic to aim for. Why not ask for their pay levels also........actually don't cause that would in many cases cause a reduction and based on the minimum number of validations to have permanent employment many ATCO's would be faced with a train or loose their job position.
Regards,
DFC
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listen up **** for brains ....
i'm not your friend anymore,
i'm taking back my offer of friendship. we're not friends
the iaa wont accept safety reports/mors about staffing from the staff. - this is happening today!
see the point about the srd/iaa relationship now? probably wasting my time on you - but someone with a brain may see it
cite your source for this - if you can
good boy
see you next tuesday
i'm not your friend anymore,
i'm taking back my offer of friendship. we're not friends
If overtime is a safety issue then make safety reports
see the point about the srd/iaa relationship now? probably wasting my time on you - but someone with a brain may see it
The NATS handles several times the traffic as the IAA with a fraction of the airspace volume. Required staffing levels are less
good boy
see you next tuesday
Last edited by irishatco; 22nd Feb 2008 at 05:59.
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A case for the Legal Eagles
I wonder if there is a case here for any doctor who has recently signed off sick an ATCO to take, certainly the IAA and possibly Whineair to the four goldmines. The press releases from both organisations must be considered defamatory, if not libelous, in calling into question the professional integrity of the medic for participating in the orchestration of a "blue-flu" scam.
I doubt very much that either organisation has been careful enough in the wording of their press releases.
Might be worth someone speaking to a slug, sorry lawyer.
I doubt very much that either organisation has been careful enough in the wording of their press releases.
Might be worth someone speaking to a slug, sorry lawyer.
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Staff made many safety reports going back to the start of last summer. Proir to that i dont think many atco were aware that such a thing as a safety report was available because we were never told about it. Hows that for a safety culture?
When said reports were made staff were initially hauled in front of midlde management for a bolo
king. Hows that for a safety culture?. Remeber these safety reports were made in instances of staff working sectors for excessive periods of time and also for exceeding sector traffic levels.
In recent weeks staff have tried to submit MOR on these events and watch managers have refused to accept them, acting under orders from management , and send them off to the AAIU. Hows that for a safety culture.?
So you see that up to now we have been plugging the dam, and busting our balls to keep it going and at the same time flagging the growing problem to management. But we cannot continue-for all the reasons already listed.
If you had bothered to check it has all been said before on this very thread.
I hope your next post will be better informed and i sincerely mean that. You ARE behind the curve on this one and have been from the start. If you accept that and go back and READ and ABSORB the thread you might see the light!
Yours as ever
OCK1F
When said reports were made staff were initially hauled in front of midlde management for a bolo
king. Hows that for a safety culture?. Remeber these safety reports were made in instances of staff working sectors for excessive periods of time and also for exceeding sector traffic levels.In recent weeks staff have tried to submit MOR on these events and watch managers have refused to accept them, acting under orders from management , and send them off to the AAIU. Hows that for a safety culture.?
So you see that up to now we have been plugging the dam, and busting our ba
lls to keep it going and at the same time flagging the growing problem to management. But we cannot continue-for all the reasons already listed.If you had bothered to check it has all been said before on this very thread.
I hope your next post will be better informed and i sincerely mean that. You ARE behind the curve on this one and have been from the start. If you accept that and go back and READ and ABSORB the thread you might see the light!
Yours as ever
OCK1F
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Irish ATCO,
In the case of ATC services provided in the UK FIR - NOTA and SOTA then I think that the UK CAA would be happy to accept MOR's. IN fact I think that it is a legal requirement to submit them for serious safety issues.
If the IAA will not accept safety reports then there is always the AAIU.
The source is of course NATS.
Ask their press office for the info. Use your airmiles to visit Swanick.
There will be more ATCO's on duty tonight in Dublin ACC than in Swanick enroute.
Regards,
DFC
In the case of ATC services provided in the UK FIR - NOTA and SOTA then I think that the UK CAA would be happy to accept MOR's. IN fact I think that it is a legal requirement to submit them for serious safety issues.
If the IAA will not accept safety reports then there is always the AAIU.
The source is of course NATS.
Ask their press office for the info. Use your airmiles to visit Swanick.
There will be more ATCO's on duty tonight in Dublin ACC than in Swanick enroute.
Regards,
DFC
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In the case of ATC services provided in the UK FIR - NOTA and SOTA then I think that the UK CAA would be happy to accept MOR's. IN fact I think that it is a legal requirement to submit them for serious safety issues
There will be more ATCO's on duty tonight in Dublin ACC than in Swanick enroute.
good boy
see you next tuesday
PS S W A N W I C K - NOT SWANICK - STUPID LAZY BOY
Last edited by irishatco; 22nd Feb 2008 at 06:00.
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too tired to wade through all of your post
The NATS handles several times the traffic as the IAA with a fraction of the airspace volume. Required staffing levels are less. Thus you have an organisation using less staff to shift more traffic in less airspace...........and you guy's want to use it as a model. Horrray at last you have something realsitic to aim for. Why not ask for their pay levels also........actually don't cause that would in many cases cause a reduction and based on the minimum number of validations to have permanent employment many ATCO's would be faced with a train or loose their job position.
IAA for more staff but should be pressing for more realistic staffing levels which will put the current staff to better use.
We are checked out on all of them.
with regard to Mor's Sor's we have filled out numerous . What does one do when your ops manager instructs the Floor Watch Managers NOT to accept them. (which by the way is illegal and irresponsible to say the least. Any that do make it to the ops manager , he conveniently bins half of those that are left.
That is the regime that we work under.
DFC we're pretty close to finding out your identity. I look forward to meeting you ''RAINMAN'' and giving you a good wake up slap.#
Do I really care what Joe public thinks ? not really.
Is it important to win a media battle. ? NO. If they want to think that the guy with '''THE TABLE TENNIS BATS'' gets 1200 euro a day. Great!! More spin for MO'L.
What do i really want?
To give the IAA one unmerciful kicking for abusing the good faith, good will and hard work that, and my colleagues and I have given to them .
UNITED WE STAND
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Hi, Me again
I hope that you guys get the overtime situation sorted and wish you well for The Labour Court on Monday. Do you guys plan to strike in Dublin City Centre on Thursday outside Aviation House? Aside from Management, are the staff in your Head offices in the City, behind you 100percent on the day?
You may need them on your side aswell to help the cause. Do they also recieve any financial benefits if you receieve them?
I hope for your sakes that the public do not turn on you anymore than they have. i also think you have a hard fight ahead of you as it does not look like they will back down. But i do still think that this has alot to do with money and if you are all payed a call out fee you will then be happy to work the overtime.
I hope that you guys get the overtime situation sorted and wish you well for The Labour Court on Monday. Do you guys plan to strike in Dublin City Centre on Thursday outside Aviation House? Aside from Management, are the staff in your Head offices in the City, behind you 100percent on the day?
You may need them on your side aswell to help the cause. Do they also recieve any financial benefits if you receieve them?
I hope for your sakes that the public do not turn on you anymore than they have. i also think you have a hard fight ahead of you as it does not look like they will back down. But i do still think that this has alot to do with money and if you are all payed a call out fee you will then be happy to work the overtime.
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So Bob still not answering the question....what would you do???? seems you're still obsessed with the money ...have you read the replies?
DFC I take back the part about the staffing issues ....I do apologize...but i'l add on just plain stupid instead. You'd definitely fit in with the managers thought because you continually make mistakes.....and don't learn from those mistakes-not doing your homework DFC.
DFC I take back the part about the staffing issues ....I do apologize...but i'l add on just plain stupid instead. You'd definitely fit in with the managers thought because you continually make mistakes.....and don't learn from those mistakes-not doing your homework DFC.
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BOB- i respect your opinion but it is incorrect to say that we will happilly go back and do buckets of overtime as long as we get more money.
WRONG (and if any management types are reading pay attention)
We wont be doing anything until we get the staff full
stop.
Thats a cast iron recruitment programme including substantial numbers of direct entries as they can be trained quicker and so reduce the lenght of time overtime is required.
The hole is so big now that i am certain any new overtime deal will not entice enough people to plug the gap. We might be able to do it for a very short time frame while the direct entries are being trained but thats only a maybe. So as a pilot i would buy a good book to read 'cos if management don't get their heads out of the sand then the exact same delays and closures will continue.
It has been shown how totally relient we are on overtime by 1 controller going (legit by the way) sick and the whole house of cards comes tumbling down.
So its not about money at all. Its about staff and the farcical requirements on us as controllers to keep the sysytem running without delays.
OCK1F
WRONG (and if any management types are reading pay attention)
We wont be doing anything until we get the staff full
stop.
Thats a cast iron recruitment programme including substantial numbers of direct entries as they can be trained quicker and so reduce the lenght of time overtime is required.
The hole is so big now that i am certain any new overtime deal will not entice enough people to plug the gap. We might be able to do it for a very short time frame while the direct entries are being trained but thats only a maybe. So as a pilot i would buy a good book to read 'cos if management don't get their heads out of the sand then the exact same delays and closures will continue.
It has been shown how totally relient we are on overtime by 1 controller going (legit by the way) sick and the whole house of cards comes tumbling down.
So its not about money at all. Its about staff and the farcical requirements on us as controllers to keep the sysytem running without delays.
OCK1F