ATC VOLUNTARY OVERTIME BAN: Dublin Flights Delayed 25th January
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Whineair
Let Me just get this straight....
Who benefits most from the below cost pricing of Terminal Services by the IAA?
Ryanair
Who benefitted the most from The IAA's "reinterpretation" of the rules regarding Crew Hours?
Ryanair
Who would benefit the most from an IAA staff notice instucting Air Traffic Contollers to give preferential to RYR flights?
Ryanair
Why wouldn't MOL wade in and defend his buddies when they provide him with that kind of service?
Who benefits most from the below cost pricing of Terminal Services by the IAA?
Ryanair
Who benefitted the most from The IAA's "reinterpretation" of the rules regarding Crew Hours?
Ryanair
Who would benefit the most from an IAA staff notice instucting Air Traffic Contollers to give preferential to RYR flights?
Ryanair
Why wouldn't MOL wade in and defend his buddies when they provide him with that kind of service?
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long time listener, first time caller
Hi,
Just a thought.
If memory serves me correct Ryanair publish their annual report in April.
If memory also serves me correct M O'L has already come out and said to expect a big drop in profits this year.
I wonder would M O'L be preparing his end of year speech already......Starting with "....this years profits have been badly hit due to Blue Flu, Refusal to do Overtime and Strike Action by Air Traffic Controllers...."
If he hasn't thought of this already then perharps I've just given him his opening speech. Sh$t!!!!
Regards.
Just a thought.
If memory serves me correct Ryanair publish their annual report in April.
If memory also serves me correct M O'L has already come out and said to expect a big drop in profits this year.
I wonder would M O'L be preparing his end of year speech already......Starting with "....this years profits have been badly hit due to Blue Flu, Refusal to do Overtime and Strike Action by Air Traffic Controllers...."
If he hasn't thought of this already then perharps I've just given him his opening speech. Sh$t!!!!
Regards.
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Action against the Harpies
When I mentioned extracting revenge after this is resolved I meant by giving as much DCT as possible so his pilots make their bonuses and fares stay low.
But I said already I am ignoring MOL because who believes someone who offers a flight to Beauvais for E0.99 that costs about E60.99 when you book it, and then the return flight costs more.
Still laughing at that twenty major website
But I said already I am ignoring MOL because who believes someone who offers a flight to Beauvais for E0.99 that costs about E60.99 when you book it, and then the return flight costs more.
Still laughing at that twenty major website
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Hi Folks
If this dispute is not about money then what is it about?? If you are a controller you will then know that the IAA have to train up controllers for 2years and it cant be done immediatley. So you are actually now asking for more money and and a higher rate of pay for overtime, how is this NOT about money!!??
Ive been a pilot for 20 years and have had many dealings with the Authority and in Aviation House's Licensing office and i have never had any problems with them. I do believe you all have a very hard job to do and deserve the money you are getting but you all know that all you are doing is looking for more money as you didnt get what you wanted in the labour court and you all know that staff can not be taken on today at your say so as they have to train up first.
If this dispute is not about money then what is it about?? If you are a controller you will then know that the IAA have to train up controllers for 2years and it cant be done immediatley. So you are actually now asking for more money and and a higher rate of pay for overtime, how is this NOT about money!!??
Ive been a pilot for 20 years and have had many dealings with the Authority and in Aviation House's Licensing office and i have never had any problems with them. I do believe you all have a very hard job to do and deserve the money you are getting but you all know that all you are doing is looking for more money as you didnt get what you wanted in the labour court and you all know that staff can not be taken on today at your say so as they have to train up first.
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Bobinkerry luckily you only have to deal with them occasionly. As Norby says read the whole thread. The IAA has been aware they were short of staff for at least 5 years but continued to chase the almighty buck instead of sorting out their staffing problems first. The staff have been pointing this out for years and the management did nothing about it. As a pilot you are well aware it can get pretty busy and controllers are sitting in position for way over the recommended (and legal in other countries) time limits. You're obviously happy witht he service now but what happens if you someday are under the control of a controller who has been sitting in too long or on another overtime duty on a rest day and makes a bad call...will you still be happy .....will you still think its about the money???? Of course you would probably be the first person to blame the controller and not the company who allowed this to happen. Should the controllers be forced to sort out the problems that the IAA have let build up? . I firmly believe that many of them just want the IAA to admit that they have f..ked it up big time and find a solution
Of course you would probably be the first person to blame the controller and not the company who allowed this to happen. Should the controllers be forced to sort out the problems that the IAA have let build up? . I firmly believe that many of them just want the IAA to admit that they have f..ked it up big time and find a solution
Last edited by alwaysmovin; 21st Feb 2008 at 14:29.
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Hi Bob-just to clarify -this is NOT about money. What it is about is that we have no recruitment since 2001 and with natural wastage etc we are chronically short of staff. To the place running itis completely dependent on overtime.
Not just a little overtime but loads of overtime . The exact quatiites are in the thread.
We have done this huge amount of overtime to keep things going but we have all now said enough is enough. Working 7 days on 1 off then- 8 on 0 off -then 6 on 2 off- then 7 on 1 off- is not safe or anything near best practice.
The problem is the IAA's point blank refusal to recruit enough SCP's and they wont even put an AD in flight International for direct entries- they are that tight.
A monkey could tell you tho that overtime will be needed to cover the gap between recruiting now and getting controllers checked-out. Our point is that there is no guarantee that enough staff will voluteer to come in because its VOLUNTARY. So a new scheme is needed- and NO WE ARE NOT LOOKING FOR 15% INCREASE or 1200 a day. That has been confirmed by both sides i.e Michael Landers of Impact and Liam Kavavngh of the HR dept of thr IAA.
The only one spouting ****e and lies is O leary.
They refuse to recruit enough direct entries who can be put on the boards a lot quicker than SCP's. They refuse to plan ahead for the HUGE amount of retirements in the next 5 years.
Pilots have very strict crew and duty hours and min rest periods. WE DONT. Our individual duties are up to 11 hours and 15mins long often in the early hours when circadian rythems are beating the crap out of you. I dont know any airline or pilot group that would accept a 11hr duty without a relief pilot. Remember our decisions keep you safe or not. Fatigue is a well known devil in avaition. Still think its about money???
Hope that has changed your view.
OCK1F
Not just a little overtime but loads of overtime . The exact quatiites are in the thread.
We have done this huge amount of overtime to keep things going but we have all now said enough is enough. Working 7 days on 1 off then- 8 on 0 off -then 6 on 2 off- then 7 on 1 off- is not safe or anything near best practice.
The problem is the IAA's point blank refusal to recruit enough SCP's and they wont even put an AD in flight International for direct entries- they are that tight.
A monkey could tell you tho that overtime will be needed to cover the gap between recruiting now and getting controllers checked-out. Our point is that there is no guarantee that enough staff will voluteer to come in because its VOLUNTARY. So a new scheme is needed- and NO WE ARE NOT LOOKING FOR 15% INCREASE or 1200 a day. That has been confirmed by both sides i.e Michael Landers of Impact and Liam Kavavngh of the HR dept of thr IAA.
The only one spouting ****e and lies is O leary.
They refuse to recruit enough direct entries who can be put on the boards a lot quicker than SCP's. They refuse to plan ahead for the HUGE amount of retirements in the next 5 years.
Pilots have very strict crew and duty hours and min rest periods. WE DONT. Our individual duties are up to 11 hours and 15mins long often in the early hours when circadian rythems are beating the crap out of you. I dont know any airline or pilot group that would accept a 11hr duty without a relief pilot. Remember our decisions keep you safe or not. Fatigue is a well known devil in avaition. Still think its about money???
Hope that has changed your view.
OCK1F
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Hi bob,
It is very short of staff and ppl have had enough. When they book 11 months in advance and cant get the day off and having to organise swaps(which is very hard now cause other ATCO's value there rest days so much) ppl get pi** off.
ATCO's want a proper overtime system(call outs and standby like any other organisation has including ryanair) in place so ppl can get leave.For this to happen they need to get enough ATCO's to sign up for it therefor it will have to be a good offer to get the numbers.
It is very short of staff and ppl have had enough. When they book 11 months in advance and cant get the day off and having to organise swaps(which is very hard now cause other ATCO's value there rest days so much) ppl get pi** off.
ATCO's want a proper overtime system(call outs and standby like any other organisation has including ryanair) in place so ppl can get leave.For this to happen they need to get enough ATCO's to sign up for it therefor it will have to be a good offer to get the numbers.
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Folks
I understand that you are under staffed. I understand that the IAA did not sort out this issue early enough, i understand that you have a tough job to do, i know that you are payed quite well. I still DO NOT understand that if you get more money or a slight increase in overtime pay, or a pay increase on your salary, how is this going to help you with Not getting your days off when requested, sick leave, maternity leave cover etc, and all the overtime you have to work at the moment cause you would still be left doing all the overtime. What is your solution? And why have none of you come out and spoken to the media to help your case and prove to the public it is not about Money, cause to be honest the public are very quickly turning because like me, they do think it is about money!
I understand that you are under staffed. I understand that the IAA did not sort out this issue early enough, i understand that you have a tough job to do, i know that you are payed quite well. I still DO NOT understand that if you get more money or a slight increase in overtime pay, or a pay increase on your salary, how is this going to help you with Not getting your days off when requested, sick leave, maternity leave cover etc, and all the overtime you have to work at the moment cause you would still be left doing all the overtime. What is your solution? And why have none of you come out and spoken to the media to help your case and prove to the public it is not about Money, cause to be honest the public are very quickly turning because like me, they do think it is about money!
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I feel Mol's rants must be quite grating to some of RYR's piloting staff, and I appreciate that his views are not necessarily their view. Any talk of retribution on this thread is just hot air.
I personally would find it impossible to levy any kind of penalty against a customer that has displayed a such a high standard of cooperation over the years.
When I first checked out as a tower ATCO, they were flying the B732. Those pilots threw those a/c on and off our rwy with military style; on/off no messing. It made those first tentative months a lot easier for me.
The B738 is a more cumbersome beast, and the Aer Arran ATR now wears the crown for best expeditious departure, but I'll never forget those early years.
I personally would find it impossible to levy any kind of penalty against a customer that has displayed a such a high standard of cooperation over the years.
When I first checked out as a tower ATCO, they were flying the B732. Those pilots threw those a/c on and off our rwy with military style; on/off no messing. It made those first tentative months a lot easier for me.
The B738 is a more cumbersome beast, and the Aer Arran ATR now wears the crown for best expeditious departure, but I'll never forget those early years.
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Bob,
Management have been warned about this for years but they saving money by not recruiting and trying to work the controllers to burn out.The last 8 to 9 months there has been alot of overtime to cover minimum opertional needs but still way too under staffed getting leave etc etc(we want a proper overtime system to cover all you mentioned leave,maturity leave,illness etc etc.Impact are trying to look for the solution but the only short term one is overtime or recruiting direct controllers.
Management have not bothered advertising direct entry properly,they have taken on 36 new recruits which starts next week but they will not be in line till late 2009(Its not a guarentee all of them will make it either).By late 2009 almost 20 current senior controller will have retired and there is lots more to follow over the years after that.Impact want more recruiting next year and the year after that.In fact by Impact demanding this,will save mangements ass in the future.
Management really has lost the trust of the staff to run the company professionally and SAFELY.
My Point is They are not recruiting fast enough cause of the short sightness of IAA mangement(havent recruited since 2002)
Management have been warned about this for years but they saving money by not recruiting and trying to work the controllers to burn out.The last 8 to 9 months there has been alot of overtime to cover minimum opertional needs but still way too under staffed getting leave etc etc(we want a proper overtime system to cover all you mentioned leave,maturity leave,illness etc etc.Impact are trying to look for the solution but the only short term one is overtime or recruiting direct controllers.
Management have not bothered advertising direct entry properly,they have taken on 36 new recruits which starts next week but they will not be in line till late 2009(Its not a guarentee all of them will make it either).By late 2009 almost 20 current senior controller will have retired and there is lots more to follow over the years after that.Impact want more recruiting next year and the year after that.In fact by Impact demanding this,will save mangements ass in the future.
Management really has lost the trust of the staff to run the company professionally and SAFELY.
My Point is They are not recruiting fast enough cause of the short sightness of IAA mangement(havent recruited since 2002)
Last edited by Eagle T; 21st Feb 2008 at 15:20.
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BoB, you ask the question "all the overtime you have to work at the moment cause you would still be left doing all the overtime. What is your solution?"
The thing is- overtime is voluntary
We DONT HAVE TO WORK OVERTIME_IT IS NOT COMPULSARY
It has been abused and as a result most people have no interest in doing further overtime no matter what money is thrown at us. The solution- Flow control, delays, closures and the reason is WE ARE SHORT OF STAFF and NO-ONE WANTS TO DO OVERTIME.
The consequence-we keep it safe but you get delayed. If that upsets you as a pilot or passenger then tahe it up with Aviation House Hawkins Street Dublin2
OCK1F
The thing is- overtime is voluntary
We DONT HAVE TO WORK OVERTIME_IT IS NOT COMPULSARY
It has been abused and as a result most people have no interest in doing further overtime no matter what money is thrown at us. The solution- Flow control, delays, closures and the reason is WE ARE SHORT OF STAFF and NO-ONE WANTS TO DO OVERTIME.
The consequence-we keep it safe but you get delayed. If that upsets you as a pilot or passenger then tahe it up with Aviation House Hawkins Street Dublin2
OCK1F
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Bobinkerry
Yes we are short staffed and yes its going to be practically impossible for the IAA to get any more in the short term. Its their problem. They've let it happen. Let them sort it out.
There are some solutions. Take rated people off office duties and projects and put them on the roster. Won't solve everything but it would help. The IAA won't do this - it would mean project and office work doesn't get done and highlight they are short staffed!
They could advertise for direct entry controllers - quicker to train than new recruits. They won't.
They still claim its about money and not about staff. They have insulted and slandered their controllers - accusing us of orchestrating wildcat action to get more money. Now I WILL NOT DO overtime and I reckon a lot of my fellow controllers feel likewise.
I want an apology for a start and an acknowledgement that there is a staff shortage. I want some guarantee of leave. Let the IAA sort that out now. Use overtime to provide leave. They won't do it! And they won't get anyone to do it!
Bring in flow control to provide leave in a planned way - Dublin airport has closed 7 times I believe during the night in the last 3 weeks and has anyone noticed? Maybe we don't need to be open at night.
They're are ways to ease the problem. None of them easy. The IAA won't do anything but slag off their staff.
As for the public reporting and opinion - yes its wrong and biased - but it doesn't matter. We shouldn't get side tracked. Its between us and the IAA. Even without going on strike all we need to do is not come in on our days off. You've seen what happens already. And its the quiet time of year. What will happen in March? In June, July and August?
But like I said let the IAA sort it out. I don't care anymore
There are some solutions. Take rated people off office duties and projects and put them on the roster. Won't solve everything but it would help. The IAA won't do this - it would mean project and office work doesn't get done and highlight they are short staffed!
They could advertise for direct entry controllers - quicker to train than new recruits. They won't.
They still claim its about money and not about staff. They have insulted and slandered their controllers - accusing us of orchestrating wildcat action to get more money. Now I WILL NOT DO overtime and I reckon a lot of my fellow controllers feel likewise.
I want an apology for a start and an acknowledgement that there is a staff shortage. I want some guarantee of leave. Let the IAA sort that out now. Use overtime to provide leave. They won't do it! And they won't get anyone to do it!
Bring in flow control to provide leave in a planned way - Dublin airport has closed 7 times I believe during the night in the last 3 weeks and has anyone noticed? Maybe we don't need to be open at night.
They're are ways to ease the problem. None of them easy. The IAA won't do anything but slag off their staff.
As for the public reporting and opinion - yes its wrong and biased - but it doesn't matter. We shouldn't get side tracked. Its between us and the IAA. Even without going on strike all we need to do is not come in on our days off. You've seen what happens already. And its the quiet time of year. What will happen in March? In June, July and August?
But like I said let the IAA sort it out. I don't care anymore
Last edited by qnhhpa; 21st Feb 2008 at 17:51.
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must do better
pr lads gets our act together
1. why no staff for 6 years??
2. we are not public servants
3. why was there 99% backing for action
4. does anyone in their right mind believe a word mol says??
5. why are we being attacked when we are working for the safety of everone single passenger
WE CAN AND MUST DO BETTER IN THE MEDIA...REMEMBER WE ARE RIGHT NOT MANAGEMENT AND THEIR LATEST SPIN DOCTOR.
1. why no staff for 6 years??
2. we are not public servants
3. why was there 99% backing for action
4. does anyone in their right mind believe a word mol says??
5. why are we being attacked when we are working for the safety of everone single passenger
WE CAN AND MUST DO BETTER IN THE MEDIA...REMEMBER WE ARE RIGHT NOT MANAGEMENT AND THEIR LATEST SPIN DOCTOR.
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Genuine Enquiries
This is an open Forum Lads and there are people like D*C who are posting obtuse comments and should be treated with disdain and there are those like Bob who genuinely seem to need the facts and should be provided with the same professional service he would get on freq., remember we NEED to win the public over to our side.
Bob,
if you have read the whole thread you will know that this dispute is about our working conditions nothing more, nothing less.
We want our contractually agreed working hours nothing more, nothing less.
We want our contractually agreed fatigue breaks nothing more, nothing less.
We want our contractually agreed annual leave nothing more, nothing less.
We want our legal entitlements to parental leave nothing more,nothing less .
We want an organised scheme for overtime that firstly protects the health and wellbeing of the controller by setting acceptable maximum working hours and a period of advance notice of standby. This is also in the best interest of the travelling public.
These are fairly basic conditions that are taken for granted by every other employee in the country, should we settle for less?
The IAA have been warned for years that this crisis was looming and they chose to ignore that.
We have offered solutions for years and they have ignored them.
How the IAA achieves that is now up to them but we will not stand for any further erosion of our basic rights and if the IAA continue with the "ostrich" behaviour they are in for asummer of delays and discontent.
Bob,
if you have read the whole thread you will know that this dispute is about our working conditions nothing more, nothing less.
We want our contractually agreed working hours nothing more, nothing less.
We want our contractually agreed fatigue breaks nothing more, nothing less.
We want our contractually agreed annual leave nothing more, nothing less.
We want our legal entitlements to parental leave nothing more,nothing less .
We want an organised scheme for overtime that firstly protects the health and wellbeing of the controller by setting acceptable maximum working hours and a period of advance notice of standby. This is also in the best interest of the travelling public.
These are fairly basic conditions that are taken for granted by every other employee in the country, should we settle for less?
The IAA have been warned for years that this crisis was looming and they chose to ignore that.
We have offered solutions for years and they have ignored them.
How the IAA achieves that is now up to them but we will not stand for any further erosion of our basic rights and if the IAA continue with the "ostrich" behaviour they are in for asummer of delays and discontent.
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You seek the truth
Bob
We need more staff
There is no quick fix for this situation. We know this. But if we do nothing we'll be in the same situation next year. The recent recruitment drive was totally inadequate.
It is only because of our recent action that the issue is even being talked about.
Controllers did not create this situation, but they are trying to solve it.
We know we will have to continue to work overtime to plug the dam, but we want an overtime scheme that is structured and safe. A scheme where overtime hours are regulated and limited, so that both the controller and customer are protected. At the moment it's a total free for all.
We want to create a staffing situation were minimum overtime is required.
I know things have been rough for us in the media. But you came here because you knew there must be another side to the story. I thank you for that.
We need more staff
There is no quick fix for this situation. We know this. But if we do nothing we'll be in the same situation next year. The recent recruitment drive was totally inadequate.
It is only because of our recent action that the issue is even being talked about.
Controllers did not create this situation, but they are trying to solve it.
We know we will have to continue to work overtime to plug the dam, but we want an overtime scheme that is structured and safe. A scheme where overtime hours are regulated and limited, so that both the controller and customer are protected. At the moment it's a total free for all.
We want to create a staffing situation were minimum overtime is required.
I know things have been rough for us in the media. But you came here because you knew there must be another side to the story. I thank you for that.
Last edited by goodworker; 29th Feb 2008 at 11:49.
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"Let's just say that the top grade pay being discussed would be a pay cut so you don't have to worry about me stealing your job"
I take it your neither pilot nor controller so.
Cheers for the info
I take it your neither pilot nor controller so.
Cheers for the info
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DFC must be IAA management....he will not accept that the IAA is responsible for the staff shortage...he likes telling everyone how much he makes....... and he's stuck in the early 90's......