ATC VOLUNTARY OVERTIME BAN: Dublin Flights Delayed 25th January
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I would have thought he meant our beloved Captain Mannering.http://www.pprune.org/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif
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Working Time Act
This comes from the dept of enetrprise and employment web site.
Maximum weekly working time
The new maximum average working week is 48 hours. Averaging may be balanced out over a 4, 6 or 12 month period depending on the circumstances.
General
The Organisation of Working Time Act sets out statutory rights for employees in respect of rest, maximum working time and holidays. These new rights apply either by law as set out in the Act, in regulations made under the Act or through legally binding collective agreements. These agreements may vary the times at which rest is taken or vary the averaging period over which weekly working time is calculated.
You are not covered by the rest and maximum working time rules if you are a member of the Defence Forces, the Garda Siochana, a junior hospital doctor, a transport employee, if you work at sea, if you control your own working hours or if you are a family employee working on a farm or private house.
Otherwise, if you are an employee, you are generally covered by the following rest and maximum working time entitlements.
There we go.
We are not covered by the rules that govern the max and min working hours. Management (and IMPACT) would say that they can impose greater working hours and shorter breaks because we,re not covered, but anyone reading that paragraph can see that the opposite is also true.
Maximum weekly working time
The new maximum average working week is 48 hours. Averaging may be balanced out over a 4, 6 or 12 month period depending on the circumstances.
General
The Organisation of Working Time Act sets out statutory rights for employees in respect of rest, maximum working time and holidays. These new rights apply either by law as set out in the Act, in regulations made under the Act or through legally binding collective agreements. These agreements may vary the times at which rest is taken or vary the averaging period over which weekly working time is calculated.
You are not covered by the rest and maximum working time rules if you are a member of the Defence Forces, the Garda Siochana, a junior hospital doctor, a transport employee, if you work at sea, if you control your own working hours or if you are a family employee working on a farm or private house.
Otherwise, if you are an employee, you are generally covered by the following rest and maximum working time entitlements.
There we go.
We are not covered by the rules that govern the max and min working hours. Management (and IMPACT) would say that they can impose greater working hours and shorter breaks because we,re not covered, but anyone reading that paragraph can see that the opposite is also true.
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2.2.1.2 At units where workload for any part of the day is judged to be low and the activity is spasmodic rather than continuous, periods of operational duty, at these times, may be extended to a maximum of four hours, provided that the following break is taken pro-rata (e.g. 45 minutes after 3 hours or 60 minutes after 4 hours). (see Note below)
There have been various occasions on which closures would have taken place but for the presence of multi-rated staff. It's a good thing for management that they never got too far with their plans to split the roster and de-rate staff.
In terms of de-rating, are you talking about a similar situation as the Manchester situation where controllers did aerodrome and area disciplines before management split the two despite being co-located. Despite being started in the Early 90's it was "in preparation" for a move to a then unknown location for the ACC. Some would say that it was to prevent ACC controllers having the ability to try and swing a stay put in Manch by virtue of their aerodrome qualifications. Moralle is similar on both sides of the Sea it seems!
Regards,
DFC
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Congrats to all but one
Many congrats to all ATCOs (and DAs) for sticking together over the last few weeks. It is great to see all 3 stations fighting the same battle for once. Unfortunately, one silly DUB ATCO let a Shamrock land the other night after the airport "closed". Not a bright move.
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We're not here to bash each other... it was only one lander and i presume they landed very shortly after the airport was due to close. I would have done the same thing within a couple of minutes, theres no point in pissing people off unecessarily after all he may hve been delayed en route and mostly, from what I can gather the EIN and indeed the rest of the pilots are on OUR side.
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If he was on the localiser at 2330 then I would agree with you, but he got airborne despite having a FLS message, and only landed at 2348. Words cannot describe the sentiments I have for said ATCO.
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10/28,
You are completley out of order. The Controller did the right thing. When the Controllers finished their shift, they should have gone home. It's not your'e business to hang around and put pressure on the Controller who took over from you. If it was obvious that the said aircraft wasn't going to make it in time, why didn't you tell the previous sector to tell him to divert to Cork or Shannon. Lets not bring any more attention on ourselves than we need to. Lets stick together, its worked so far.
You are completley out of order. The Controller did the right thing. When the Controllers finished their shift, they should have gone home. It's not your'e business to hang around and put pressure on the Controller who took over from you. If it was obvious that the said aircraft wasn't going to make it in time, why didn't you tell the previous sector to tell him to divert to Cork or Shannon. Lets not bring any more attention on ourselves than we need to. Lets stick together, its worked so far.
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The only person out of order was the ATCO who allowed the Shamrock to land when the airfield was notamed closed. The previous controllers had advised said a'c that he was not going to make it on time and asked for his alternate. The night duty team came in and did the opposite.
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Lads lads lads take it easy. We all know that tensions are running high but save it for tuesday!
We all know controllers who have made decisions we don't agree with- it happens every day BUT THIS IS NOT THE PLACE TO AIR THEM. Every one involved probable knows the other , so have a wee chat amongst yerselves. NOT HERE. Bite your tongue if necessary until this is resolved.PLEASE
This thread has stuck remarkably to its main theme even in face of provocation so lets keep it that way.
Keep the faith. Stay UNITED
yours as ever
OCK1F
We all know controllers who have made decisions we don't agree with- it happens every day BUT THIS IS NOT THE PLACE TO AIR THEM. Every one involved probable knows the other , so have a wee chat amongst yerselves. NOT HERE. Bite your tongue if necessary until this is resolved.PLEASE
This thread has stuck remarkably to its main theme even in face of provocation so lets keep it that way.
Keep the faith. Stay UNITED
yours as ever
OCK1F
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There is a rumour going around that management are going to try and tough this one out. Brinkmanship is the word i believe.
Basically that they will say that they have recruited the biggest ever SCP class and will offer extra incentives for overtime to plug a "short-term" gap. They know best -we are not short of staff-and the amount of overtime required is really actually quite small. Now where is the problem?
Wonder what type of reaction that will get tomorrow
The reason they are willing to do this is because they cannot be seen to accede to our "demands" . This is effectively a power struggle-and they obviously don't want to give an inch to the staff and Impact. They cannot be seen to be weak or they have failed in their job to be hard assed big balled business men.
Just so ye know - its quite likely this will transpire tomorrow. Lets see.
Yours as ever
OCK1F
Basically that they will say that they have recruited the biggest ever SCP class and will offer extra incentives for overtime to plug a "short-term" gap. They know best -we are not short of staff-and the amount of overtime required is really actually quite small. Now where is the problem?
Wonder what type of reaction that will get tomorrow
The reason they are willing to do this is because they cannot be seen to accede to our "demands" . This is effectively a power struggle-and they obviously don't want to give an inch to the staff and Impact. They cannot be seen to be weak or they have failed in their job to be hard assed big balled business men.
Just so ye know - its quite likely this will transpire tomorrow. Lets see.
Yours as ever
OCK1F
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Much of the activity in Ireland outside of Dublin Terminal Area and Shannon Highlevel with the Atlantic Rush focused on the Irish Landfall points would come under that heading.
If you are short of staff (as Ireland appears to be) and don't have the cover, you're still up sh*t creek. You still hit the wall, just 2 hours later than where controllers need a break after 2 hours.
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some text removed in the intrest of not lowering myself to that gob****es level... grr nav
Now excuse me but are we on strike?
is there a picket line that I haven't noticed??
did the sky fall in on top of us
are we the clampers who won't take the clamp off to let the kid go to hospital?
no.
a compastionate decision was made by a TEAM to let 200 people go home for the night.
how has that diluted our cause in any way shape or form???
10 /28 was it you team that shut the airport, no
put up or shut up you moron.
p.s that ATCO you talk about you know the one, i would not like to be around him when he is angry.
its a good job this is an anonymous forum
PPS the traffic landed at 2335 and if you were still in the building you must have been on overtime ya dope.
Now excuse me but are we on strike?
is there a picket line that I haven't noticed??
did the sky fall in on top of us
are we the clampers who won't take the clamp off to let the kid go to hospital?
no.
a compastionate decision was made by a TEAM to let 200 people go home for the night.
how has that diluted our cause in any way shape or form???
10 /28 was it you team that shut the airport, no
put up or shut up you moron.
p.s that ATCO you talk about you know the one, i would not like to be around him when he is angry.
its a good job this is an anonymous forum
PPS the traffic landed at 2335 and if you were still in the building you must have been on overtime ya dope.
Last edited by grr nav; 18th Feb 2008 at 12:36.
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10/28
10/28 you are completely out of order. We are, I sincerely hope, not in the business of trying to inconvenience our customers - the airlines and their passengers. Our grievence is solely against our management and their allowing of staffing issues to get out of hand.
We are not on strike (yet).
We may be voluntarily not attending for extra duties on our time off. If this causes disruption it highlights our staffing shortages. We do not need to militantly try to cause further disruption.
Refusing to allow an aircraft to land and forcing it to divert when it is overhead its destination would cause needless upset and cost to all those on board. In terms of safety it is a wrong thing to do.
I stand fully by the person who allowed this aircraft to land and I would have done the exact same myself.
Don't get distracted by individual decisions. Remember what and with whom our problem is with.
We are not on strike (yet).
We may be voluntarily not attending for extra duties on our time off. If this causes disruption it highlights our staffing shortages. We do not need to militantly try to cause further disruption.
Refusing to allow an aircraft to land and forcing it to divert when it is overhead its destination would cause needless upset and cost to all those on board. In terms of safety it is a wrong thing to do.
I stand fully by the person who allowed this aircraft to land and I would have done the exact same myself.
Don't get distracted by individual decisions. Remember what and with whom our problem is with.
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IAA take note
On Sunday afternoon, RTE Aertel carried a story, Quoting the IAA that after the effective closure of Dublin Airport from 2330 Saturday to 0630 Sunday, there would be no more disruption to aircraft as staffing levels were 'normal'.
To clarify with some facts. No ATC service was available due to only 3 of 5 controllers on duty during the night. Service resumed at 0600 when rostered morning duties started.
Between 0600 and 2400 on Sunday there were 22 of 27 controllers on duty - hardly 'normal' staffing levels.
This led to single sector capacity for most of the period with significant delays to many aircraft.
565 landing and take offs took place at Dublin during these 18 hours, despite the flow restrictions and staff shortages - An average of just over 30 an hour.
Quite a few flights also landed after midnight due to knock on effects of the days restrictions.
Despite the staff shortages people are working hard.
IAA take note. We know its hard to admit when you've made a mistake and to be fair there are signs your position is softening. But you need to get your controller staff on board to sort this out. Show some courage and imagination.
To clarify with some facts. No ATC service was available due to only 3 of 5 controllers on duty during the night. Service resumed at 0600 when rostered morning duties started.
Between 0600 and 2400 on Sunday there were 22 of 27 controllers on duty - hardly 'normal' staffing levels.
This led to single sector capacity for most of the period with significant delays to many aircraft.
565 landing and take offs took place at Dublin during these 18 hours, despite the flow restrictions and staff shortages - An average of just over 30 an hour.
Quite a few flights also landed after midnight due to knock on effects of the days restrictions.
Despite the staff shortages people are working hard.
IAA take note. We know its hard to admit when you've made a mistake and to be fair there are signs your position is softening. But you need to get your controller staff on board to sort this out. Show some courage and imagination.
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Pat Kenny today : http://www.rte.ie/radio1/player_av.h...ny-Monday.smil
Just move the slider 'til you get to about 1 hr 48 mins on the timeline.
This eoghan corry obviously has his ear to the ground and his eye on this forum!
I thought he hit the nail on the head with a lot of his comments.
Thanks eoghan.
Yours as ever
OCK1F
Just move the slider 'til you get to about 1 hr 48 mins on the timeline.
This eoghan corry obviously has his ear to the ground and his eye on this forum!
I thought he hit the nail on the head with a lot of his comments.
Thanks eoghan.
Yours as ever
OCK1F
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Brinksmanship
Let management be as tough as they want....
We Don't have to do overtime and they cannot touch us for that. It's only Feb and airports are closed and flights are delayed, imagine what May, June and July will bring...the egg will be all over mangements face and they will have to back down in the end.
Management can recruit 1000 scp's in the morning it doesn't matter because they dont have the staff available to train 10 let alone 36 or any other number.
This is the big test of our mettle here, we must be very careful what we do next. We can only return to ops normal if all of our demands are met.
We must not accept a lucrative OT deal UNTIL all the other demands are met. If we do, mangement will portray us as moneygrabbers and will use that against us in any other dispute.
I suggest also that the united front presented by staff (long may it continue) is the biggest worry for mangement and that if the Union want to capitalise on that they must LISTEN to us from now on. After all we have been complaining to the Union as well as management for years and when we take matters into our own hands ......well you know.
the SIPTU Pres. said on the RTE news that his union would not even enter preliminary talks on a national wage agreement unless workers rights and conditions were safeguarded in law first. Wise Man.
To 10/28
If you hadn't already noticed this forum is about SUPPORTING each other in this dispute and clearly the majority of us agree with the controller who allowed that flight to land. If things get ugly later we may need the support of the crew and passengers of that flight.
If you want to slag off your colleagues go and join DFC
We Don't have to do overtime and they cannot touch us for that. It's only Feb and airports are closed and flights are delayed, imagine what May, June and July will bring...the egg will be all over mangements face and they will have to back down in the end.
Management can recruit 1000 scp's in the morning it doesn't matter because they dont have the staff available to train 10 let alone 36 or any other number.
This is the big test of our mettle here, we must be very careful what we do next. We can only return to ops normal if all of our demands are met.
We must not accept a lucrative OT deal UNTIL all the other demands are met. If we do, mangement will portray us as moneygrabbers and will use that against us in any other dispute.
I suggest also that the united front presented by staff (long may it continue) is the biggest worry for mangement and that if the Union want to capitalise on that they must LISTEN to us from now on. After all we have been complaining to the Union as well as management for years and when we take matters into our own hands ......well you know.
the SIPTU Pres. said on the RTE news that his union would not even enter preliminary talks on a national wage agreement unless workers rights and conditions were safeguarded in law first. Wise Man.
To 10/28
If you hadn't already noticed this forum is about SUPPORTING each other in this dispute and clearly the majority of us agree with the controller who allowed that flight to land. If things get ugly later we may need the support of the crew and passengers of that flight.
If you want to slag off your colleagues go and join DFC