Another nail in the MACC morale coffin.
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Well put. A lack of experience does make people very insular. A bit like those mid-west Americans who think USA is the only place on the planet, and content themselves with the proverbial banjo and very close "relations " with their relations 
( Burt Reynolds movie ..Deliverance 
( Burt Reynolds movie ..Deliverance
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ceannairceach
It is becoming fairly obvious that you do not have much support. Probably because many hundreds of ATCO`s have been in a similar situation over the years, and made the most of it. I remember when good old PATCC closed and many received postings to LATCC....there have been many since.
Advice----stop bleating and start planning. They are always ways out. If you really do not want to go to Scotland, start applying for jobs elsewhere. Heathrow tower is always short, as is TC, as is En-route. as is SRG etc,etc. Consider local airfields, such as Liverpool? If you are not rated--then get rated if it means so much to you. Finally, a well qualified chap such as you should have no trouble in securing an Ops post with a local airline or the Airport Authority! Good luck. Keep us posted.
Advice----stop bleating and start planning. They are always ways out. If you really do not want to go to Scotland, start applying for jobs elsewhere. Heathrow tower is always short, as is TC, as is En-route. as is SRG etc,etc. Consider local airfields, such as Liverpool? If you are not rated--then get rated if it means so much to you. Finally, a well qualified chap such as you should have no trouble in securing an Ops post with a local airline or the Airport Authority! Good luck. Keep us posted.
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anotherthing, "The 2 centre strategy makes sound business sense. It provides redundancy"....
how exactly? Will there be space in the NPC to accomodate AC and TC should disaster strike in Swanwick?
I've only been at Swanwick a few months but there certainly doesn't seem to be anywhere for Manch or Scottish to slot in should disaster befall either or both of them. There's only a banana to fit in all TC and heaven knows where AC are supposed to go if anything untoward occurs down here.
how exactly? Will there be space in the NPC to accomodate AC and TC should disaster strike in Swanwick?
I've only been at Swanwick a few months but there certainly doesn't seem to be anywhere for Manch or Scottish to slot in should disaster befall either or both of them. There's only a banana to fit in all TC and heaven knows where AC are supposed to go if anything untoward occurs down here.
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Not Long Now
if some catastrophic event were to occur (highly unlikely I admit but it has to be planned for - it's part of the NATS businees plan/contract) then there would be a facility to provide a much pared down, limited function from the remaining centre.
Do you honestly think that we would have 2 centres if it was not needed? This fallback requirement is probably the biggest reason we have the new centre at Prestwick... otherwise the company would have (and no doubt wrt business plans and cost cutting would have preferred) a single centre strategy. Just think how much money the company could have saved it it had been a viable option.
The new centre at Prestwick has nothing to do with keeping the locals in a job.
if some catastrophic event were to occur (highly unlikely I admit but it has to be planned for - it's part of the NATS businees plan/contract) then there would be a facility to provide a much pared down, limited function from the remaining centre.
Do you honestly think that we would have 2 centres if it was not needed? This fallback requirement is probably the biggest reason we have the new centre at Prestwick... otherwise the company would have (and no doubt wrt business plans and cost cutting would have preferred) a single centre strategy. Just think how much money the company could have saved it it had been a viable option.
The new centre at Prestwick has nothing to do with keeping the locals in a job.
Last edited by anotherthing; 18th Feb 2008 at 16:18. Reason: To take some things out
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The concept of contingency is in the public domain, including who might go where in general terms. The exact detail should be for company eyes only.
The above is probably as far as we should go in that respect, maybe even a touch too far.
The above is probably as far as we should go in that respect, maybe even a touch too far.
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I've edited my post re contingency plans. Not under instruction from anyone I might add.
I did it not because I think there was anything remotely sensitive in it, either in a security sense or a business sense, (there wasn't in either case - what I mentioned is common sense) but to keep the Mods happy - it is their train set after all
I did it not because I think there was anything remotely sensitive in it, either in a security sense or a business sense, (there wasn't in either case - what I mentioned is common sense) but to keep the Mods happy - it is their train set after all
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We at Manchester were lied to for years regarding a move to anywhere!
Repeatedly we were told that if there was a closure then it would be a move down South not to Scotland.
The fact is that the New Prestwick Centre is being built where it is because of massive political pressure and the hell bent desire to:
1 Not have it move over to the "posh" East coast (Edinburgh basically)
2 Never ever must it move to England (Manchester basically)
Nats will have been given all sorts of incentives to stay put.
Then of course is the disgraceful and illegal banding.
Scottish band 4 so make Manchester the same and move it there. Excellent lots of money saved!
A move to Prestwick is not a life enhancing move for pretty much all of us, which is why we are bailing out and leaving the man power planning in tatters!
Note to those in Prestwick, please dont take it personally but what is going on down here is a very complex and emotive issue.
Quite simply when Manchester moves to Prestwick they will be very very short!
The way management have dealt with the closure and move has been disgraceful and they have only themselves to blame for the ****y mess they are in and will be in come 2010.
Man management and a real understanding of people and how they feel or what they want and this problem would not be anything like it is.
Repeatedly we were told that if there was a closure then it would be a move down South not to Scotland.
The fact is that the New Prestwick Centre is being built where it is because of massive political pressure and the hell bent desire to:
1 Not have it move over to the "posh" East coast (Edinburgh basically)
2 Never ever must it move to England (Manchester basically)
Nats will have been given all sorts of incentives to stay put.
Then of course is the disgraceful and illegal banding.
Scottish band 4 so make Manchester the same and move it there. Excellent lots of money saved!
A move to Prestwick is not a life enhancing move for pretty much all of us, which is why we are bailing out and leaving the man power planning in tatters!
Note to those in Prestwick, please dont take it personally but what is going on down here is a very complex and emotive issue.
Quite simply when Manchester moves to Prestwick they will be very very short!
The way management have dealt with the closure and move has been disgraceful and they have only themselves to blame for the ****y mess they are in and will be in come 2010.
Man management and a real understanding of people and how they feel or what they want and this problem would not be anything like it is.
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Confusing statements......
I just have a couple of genuine questions for the people who are here from Manchester:
1. You don't want to move 4 hours north of Manchester, but you'd be happy to move 4 hours south of Manchester. Why?
2. In response to the answers to question 1, you don't want to move to Scotland as it's 'another country' and yet a significant number of you have moved/in the process of moving/looking to move to Canada. Why?
3. What's banding got to do with any of it? I've said it before and I'll say it again. Manchester weren't the only unit to feel hard done by when banding was introduced so when do you intend to stop flogging that dead horse?
1. You don't want to move 4 hours north of Manchester, but you'd be happy to move 4 hours south of Manchester. Why?
2. In response to the answers to question 1, you don't want to move to Scotland as it's 'another country' and yet a significant number of you have moved/in the process of moving/looking to move to Canada. Why?
3. What's banding got to do with any of it? I've said it before and I'll say it again. Manchester weren't the only unit to feel hard done by when banding was introduced so when do you intend to stop flogging that dead horse?
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Regarding Banding it should never have come in!
Its illegal and if NATS management want to be made to look like the devious individuals (along with Prospect)they are in the public arena then they can ignore the equal pay claims at their peril.
Its illegal and if NATS management want to be made to look like the devious individuals (along with Prospect)they are in the public arena then they can ignore the equal pay claims at their peril.
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Loxley - I am a MACC controller -here is MY view for what it's worth:-
1. I don't want to move. I am happy where I am. The destination in either direction is unappealing personally.
I am not worried about going to Scotland.
The nonsense written on this thread about how awful it is for English folk is quite disappointing. I am sure our new colleagues there will do their utmost to make us feel welcome.
It's political why we are going. The company has incentivised the move which explains when we are going. The mobile grade we signed up for means we have to go. We can't put in a transfer to another unit unless we are promoted (there are more who'd go to to Swanwick than Prestwick if it was a choice and many have asked for this transfer in the past - "if you want the big money shift the big traffic" said a London based union **** out of his bottom explaining how our pay aspirations have increased even though we are Band 4).
It comes down to the fact I'd rather be in Manchester than Ayrshire or Southampton. I'm quite useless at anything else - I enjoy Terminal+Area Radar. So it is tough - I'm going. I accept that. I nor ask or expect any sympathy.
2. You only get one life. I guess for these people they didn't want to move either but when pushed would rather be somewhere of their choosing. I admire their boldness/spirit of adventure. The majority were fine operators and their experience and presence was and is missed.
3. Banding has everything to do with it - for me. Personally it has affected my morale. Our shift patterns are great (the sub-roster included). The move is inevitable. I sympathise with all the other units who feel hard done by with banding. I can assure Hootin' and Loxley that MACC controllers did not vote for it. We were and are vociferous against it. It has divided the union (albeit the majority like their Band 5 status - who could blame them?)
Homo is right in that it was disgraceful. I know ATCOs at units less than Band 4 dislike our wage, it's understandable. But, I am going to whine about it now so you should stop reading if this applies to you and offends.
The Area model is partly based on traffic squared divided by controllers. This means the aircraft a centre controls is much more of a factor than staff. This fact alone makes the whole thing unfair and shames the people who came up with it and those who still defend it.
Even if it was a fair and a linear comparison (instead of exponential) there should be a mechanism and transparent system for going up/down a band. However when union and management colluded on this, they said the model only informed the debate - thereby having their 'out'. The Americans have this transparent grading system I believe.
I don't begrudge my colleagues who are on Band 5. It should be more for the work WE do. I BELIEVE I work AS hard as LAC guys and most of the LTC guys. Some Scottish sectors are as busy as any in the land. We should be on the same wage if it is based on what we do plugged in. We leave the college at the same/similar standard. Base it on cost of living - that should be able to be proved independantly.
Why do SOME Swanwick ATCOs think we are lesser mortals. What evidence do they have to believe we are second rate?
Banding has put this chip on my shoulder but only slightly tarnished the job I love.
I feel I deserve parity yet I think NSL staff at the lower bands deserve more too. Some of their approach mates in LTC get more even though their lower paid towers work twice the traffic. It's all hard to compare. Maybe the gaps between bands should reduce and the gap between NERL units should be based on living costs.
1. I don't want to move. I am happy where I am. The destination in either direction is unappealing personally.
I am not worried about going to Scotland.
The nonsense written on this thread about how awful it is for English folk is quite disappointing. I am sure our new colleagues there will do their utmost to make us feel welcome.
It's political why we are going. The company has incentivised the move which explains when we are going. The mobile grade we signed up for means we have to go. We can't put in a transfer to another unit unless we are promoted (there are more who'd go to to Swanwick than Prestwick if it was a choice and many have asked for this transfer in the past - "if you want the big money shift the big traffic" said a London based union **** out of his bottom explaining how our pay aspirations have increased even though we are Band 4).
It comes down to the fact I'd rather be in Manchester than Ayrshire or Southampton. I'm quite useless at anything else - I enjoy Terminal+Area Radar. So it is tough - I'm going. I accept that. I nor ask or expect any sympathy.
2. You only get one life. I guess for these people they didn't want to move either but when pushed would rather be somewhere of their choosing. I admire their boldness/spirit of adventure. The majority were fine operators and their experience and presence was and is missed.
3. Banding has everything to do with it - for me. Personally it has affected my morale. Our shift patterns are great (the sub-roster included). The move is inevitable. I sympathise with all the other units who feel hard done by with banding. I can assure Hootin' and Loxley that MACC controllers did not vote for it. We were and are vociferous against it. It has divided the union (albeit the majority like their Band 5 status - who could blame them?)
Homo is right in that it was disgraceful. I know ATCOs at units less than Band 4 dislike our wage, it's understandable. But, I am going to whine about it now so you should stop reading if this applies to you and offends.
The Area model is partly based on traffic squared divided by controllers. This means the aircraft a centre controls is much more of a factor than staff. This fact alone makes the whole thing unfair and shames the people who came up with it and those who still defend it.
Even if it was a fair and a linear comparison (instead of exponential) there should be a mechanism and transparent system for going up/down a band. However when union and management colluded on this, they said the model only informed the debate - thereby having their 'out'. The Americans have this transparent grading system I believe.
I don't begrudge my colleagues who are on Band 5. It should be more for the work WE do. I BELIEVE I work AS hard as LAC guys and most of the LTC guys. Some Scottish sectors are as busy as any in the land. We should be on the same wage if it is based on what we do plugged in. We leave the college at the same/similar standard. Base it on cost of living - that should be able to be proved independantly.
Why do SOME Swanwick ATCOs think we are lesser mortals. What evidence do they have to believe we are second rate?
Banding has put this chip on my shoulder but only slightly tarnished the job I love.
I feel I deserve parity yet I think NSL staff at the lower bands deserve more too. Some of their approach mates in LTC get more even though their lower paid towers work twice the traffic. It's all hard to compare. Maybe the gaps between bands should reduce and the gap between NERL units should be based on living costs.
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Should all accountants be paid the same? Plumbers? Lawyers? Bus drivers? Pilots (heaven forbid)? Etc ad nauseum.
Unless one lives in a Communist utopia, how's banding illegal (if you can answer without giving too much of your case away)?
Unless one lives in a Communist utopia, how's banding illegal (if you can answer without giving too much of your case away)?
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The Area model is partly based on traffic squared divided by controllers. This means the aircraft a centre controls is much more of a factor than staff. This fact alone makes the whole thing unfair and shames the people who came up with it and those who still defend it.
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Gonzo.
I did say Area model.
I also said traffic squared divided by ATCOs.
If you were picking apples on your own and were paid for the number of apples you pick;
you'd be happy if the guy who owns the orchard pays a team of three people the numbers of apples they pick divided by three.
Imagine your displeasure when the guy running the orchard decides to pay based on the number of apples picked squared, divided by the number of pickers.
And takes a vote on it!
I did say Area model.
I also said traffic squared divided by ATCOs.
If you were picking apples on your own and were paid for the number of apples you pick;
you'd be happy if the guy who owns the orchard pays a team of three people the numbers of apples they pick divided by three.
Imagine your displeasure when the guy running the orchard decides to pay based on the number of apples picked squared, divided by the number of pickers.
And takes a vote on it!
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Homo
New Prestwick Centre was built at Prestwick because that is where the Old Scottish Centre is.
Even I with Sweet F*** All financial talent can see that makes commercial sense.I would have loved to go to Edinburgh thirty years ago but it was not to be. I was posted to Prestwick because historically that is where the Centre was. You can blame all these transatlantic a/c getting lost during the war etc.Read up on it there is an awful lot of history wrapped up in ATC at Prestwick ( I was tempted to add the phrase "laddie" there but I wont )
Most of the guys and gals up here want to try and help you settle in (Honest) but it does not help the MACC cause when you start spouting bollocks that the new Centre should be built on the East Coast.
We all look forward to meeting you at Prestchester or Manwick control.
Rgds
AyrTC
New Prestwick Centre was built at Prestwick because that is where the Old Scottish Centre is.
Even I with Sweet F*** All financial talent can see that makes commercial sense.I would have loved to go to Edinburgh thirty years ago but it was not to be. I was posted to Prestwick because historically that is where the Centre was. You can blame all these transatlantic a/c getting lost during the war etc.Read up on it there is an awful lot of history wrapped up in ATC at Prestwick ( I was tempted to add the phrase "laddie" there but I wont )Most of the guys and gals up here want to try and help you settle in (Honest) but it does not help the MACC cause when you start spouting bollocks that the new Centre should be built on the East Coast.
We all look forward to meeting you at Prestchester or Manwick control.
Rgds
AyrTC
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Loxley,
As ex EGCC guy now YYZ guy, from my point of view here would be my answers to 1 & 2.
1. Kids would have been entrenched in run up to exams at time of closure so a move south to the same education system would have been easier for them.
2. If its got to be a different country then lets make it of my choosing re time and place, simple as that.
Add to that were are only on this planet once (there's a debate for Jet Blast) then here seemed to be an adventure worth having a go at.
As for banding, I ain't going there!!!!
I also didn't like the idea of paying over inflated price for a house in a possible bidding war with a group of my colleagues. Here I became mortgage free at the time of move and got a lot more house and land for my money. Also a hell of a lot more snow I hasten to add.
That said if EGCC hadn't been closing would I have done it? Never in a million years, I loved it there and would go back in a heartbeat but not now to NPC or for that matter Swanwick.
As ex EGCC guy now YYZ guy, from my point of view here would be my answers to 1 & 2.
1. Kids would have been entrenched in run up to exams at time of closure so a move south to the same education system would have been easier for them.
2. If its got to be a different country then lets make it of my choosing re time and place, simple as that.
Add to that were are only on this planet once (there's a debate for Jet Blast) then here seemed to be an adventure worth having a go at.
As for banding, I ain't going there!!!!
I also didn't like the idea of paying over inflated price for a house in a possible bidding war with a group of my colleagues. Here I became mortgage free at the time of move and got a lot more house and land for my money. Also a hell of a lot more snow I hasten to add.
That said if EGCC hadn't been closing would I have done it? Never in a million years, I loved it there and would go back in a heartbeat but not now to NPC or for that matter Swanwick.
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Thanks for the answers guys. But another thing I don't understand that's already been mentioned is the length of time it's been known that Manchester wa moving to Prestwick. The earliest I remember is 2000 (because I was in a pub talking to someone about it as England were beating Germany). And that's the earliest I remember. I'm sure it was even before then that it was announced Manchester would be moving to Scotland.
To be fair, you guys have had at least 8 years notice you'll be moving, and by the time you actually do move it will be at least 10 or 11 years notice. It's not as if this move has sneaked up on you from behind is it?
I would argue that you have had more than enough time to work out what to do. Some of you have taken the step and gone to Canada. Some have gone/are going to the College. Some have gone to LACC. Knowing that this was happening for at least 8 years and only now starting to royally kick off about it smacks off head burying in the sand of the highest order until it was far too late.
I accept that Manchester is a nice place to be and all the rest of it, but the fact of the matter is this move has been on the cards for the best part of a decade and, although I know it's becoming a tired old cliche now, you are a mobile grade, you agreed when you joined that you were happy to be posted wherever the company needed you, and they won't be needing you in Manchester because there won't be a Centre there. They will need you at NPC though, hence why you're being posted there.
To be fair, you guys have had at least 8 years notice you'll be moving, and by the time you actually do move it will be at least 10 or 11 years notice. It's not as if this move has sneaked up on you from behind is it?
I would argue that you have had more than enough time to work out what to do. Some of you have taken the step and gone to Canada. Some have gone/are going to the College. Some have gone to LACC. Knowing that this was happening for at least 8 years and only now starting to royally kick off about it smacks off head burying in the sand of the highest order until it was far too late.
I accept that Manchester is a nice place to be and all the rest of it, but the fact of the matter is this move has been on the cards for the best part of a decade and, although I know it's becoming a tired old cliche now, you are a mobile grade, you agreed when you joined that you were happy to be posted wherever the company needed you, and they won't be needing you in Manchester because there won't be a Centre there. They will need you at NPC though, hence why you're being posted there.
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Traffic squared divided by ATCOS? Hmm... so units with lots of overflights (less complex) get more money than a not so busy but much more complex unit?
You could chase your tail forever reference banding - there are always ways and arguments to shoehorn it to suit whicever unit you work at.
Homo Simpson has intimated in his post that banding is one issue why he does not want to move to prestwick i.e. be kept at band 4. Therefore money is an issue.
Sorry, not going to get into a bun fight here, but 2 things -
1) are they as busy for as long periods each day?
2) If what you state is true, then why have colleagues of mine who moved north a few years ago (last one was about 12 months ago), all said that it is not as busy or complex?
You could chase your tail forever reference banding - there are always ways and arguments to shoehorn it to suit whicever unit you work at.
Homo Simpson has intimated in his post that banding is one issue why he does not want to move to prestwick i.e. be kept at band 4. Therefore money is an issue.
Some Scottish sectors are as busy as any in the land.
1) are they as busy for as long periods each day?
2) If what you state is true, then why have colleagues of mine who moved north a few years ago (last one was about 12 months ago), all said that it is not as busy or complex?
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So, as well as the prospect of losing staff in numbers from the unit, a morale boosting new set of initiatives seem to be being pursued by some managers/ supervisors at MACC.
- restrictions on summer leave.
- re-juggling the summer leave period.
- extending the sub-roster.
- NICE ONE! - just what we needed.
Was the way this thread was started by Mahaba. We have subsequently heard nothing else from this individual. Were his fears founded or not?
- restrictions on summer leave.
- re-juggling the summer leave period.
- extending the sub-roster.
- NICE ONE! - just what we needed.
Was the way this thread was started by Mahaba. We have subsequently heard nothing else from this individual. Were his fears founded or not?