Another nail in the MACC morale coffin.
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I feel compelled to post here again, not sure why. Maybe it's because I feel the point is being lost a little.
I don't want to go to NPC because, in doing so, my partner (who out of interest is Glaswegian, via Dublin and now Manchester) and I (and the children that are nigh on arriving) are faced with a "either you quit or I quit" scenario when it comes to the careers we've both worked so hard for.
I firmly believe that's a sacrifice any company who values it's employees should never have asked them to make without any sort of prior consultation or reference whatsoever.
Sure, those of you who shifted from West Drayton to LACC had to move too. I accept that readily and with genuine sympathy. But did your families have to move too? Did you have to uproot your entire lives and sacrifice 50% of your joint income and standard of life because of the move down the motorway?
Of course not. And there ends your right to compare the two situations as far as I'm concerned.
And frankly, as a relatively passive and friendly PPRuNer, it disgusts me that a tiny minority of my colleagues from LACC feel qualified and suitably self-important to comment on a situation about which they have no experience or relevance to add. It just amounts to playground "we're better than you" nonsense - as usual, and cyber-inadequate-willy-waving.
The day I begrudge one of my fellow colleagues, regardless of his or her unit, their concerns and hopes and fears when it comes to our shared profession, is the day I string myself up as morally, professionally and sociologically bankrupt.
And to my own colleagues all I can say is that Scotland isn't a hell hole. And Scottish people aren't racist. They're just like you and me. Don't believe the nonsense that we get filled with in the rest room and at quiet moments on sector. I've a strong English accent and I've never been made to feel anything less than welcome up there at any time, albeit with a bit of friendly banter along the way. Nothing more than we'd give anyone joining the unit from elsewhere. And Scotland is a beautiful country. I think some of us think Manchester is some sort of blissful utopia. Erm, why?
Don't let us dilute our issues over the move with semi-racist diatribe and conjecture. Because doing so cheapens what is and should be a genuine gripe with our employer and the way they have, and are, treating us.
Our admittedly superb working arrangements are being diminished daily, staffing levels are being degraded regardless of the political spin we're being fed on the Intranet and via company e-mail, and you know, the sad thing about it all is - all the company had to do is ask those of us working on the shop floor at MACC what we thought about the move, in a sensible and constructive way, before pen was put to paper on the deal. As simple as that. Even if it was just for show, to be frank, just an impression that we were being listened to would probably have been enough to stem the mass resignations that are soon to follow. And they are soon to follow.....
When you ignore staff, en masse, regardless of profession or motive, then all you'll ever do is degrade morale and kill any sliver of good will that remains.
MACC is not a good place to work now. People are unhappy. They feel disenfranchised, ignored, put upon and hopeless - or at least those anti-NPC move folk amongst us do. And the rest feel equally unhappy because they have to listen to us
I don't want to go to NPC because, in doing so, my partner (who out of interest is Glaswegian, via Dublin and now Manchester) and I (and the children that are nigh on arriving) are faced with a "either you quit or I quit" scenario when it comes to the careers we've both worked so hard for.
I firmly believe that's a sacrifice any company who values it's employees should never have asked them to make without any sort of prior consultation or reference whatsoever.
Sure, those of you who shifted from West Drayton to LACC had to move too. I accept that readily and with genuine sympathy. But did your families have to move too? Did you have to uproot your entire lives and sacrifice 50% of your joint income and standard of life because of the move down the motorway?
Of course not. And there ends your right to compare the two situations as far as I'm concerned.
And frankly, as a relatively passive and friendly PPRuNer, it disgusts me that a tiny minority of my colleagues from LACC feel qualified and suitably self-important to comment on a situation about which they have no experience or relevance to add. It just amounts to playground "we're better than you" nonsense - as usual, and cyber-inadequate-willy-waving.
The day I begrudge one of my fellow colleagues, regardless of his or her unit, their concerns and hopes and fears when it comes to our shared profession, is the day I string myself up as morally, professionally and sociologically bankrupt.
And to my own colleagues all I can say is that Scotland isn't a hell hole. And Scottish people aren't racist. They're just like you and me. Don't believe the nonsense that we get filled with in the rest room and at quiet moments on sector. I've a strong English accent and I've never been made to feel anything less than welcome up there at any time, albeit with a bit of friendly banter along the way. Nothing more than we'd give anyone joining the unit from elsewhere. And Scotland is a beautiful country. I think some of us think Manchester is some sort of blissful utopia. Erm, why?
Don't let us dilute our issues over the move with semi-racist diatribe and conjecture. Because doing so cheapens what is and should be a genuine gripe with our employer and the way they have, and are, treating us.
Our admittedly superb working arrangements are being diminished daily, staffing levels are being degraded regardless of the political spin we're being fed on the Intranet and via company e-mail, and you know, the sad thing about it all is - all the company had to do is ask those of us working on the shop floor at MACC what we thought about the move, in a sensible and constructive way, before pen was put to paper on the deal. As simple as that. Even if it was just for show, to be frank, just an impression that we were being listened to would probably have been enough to stem the mass resignations that are soon to follow. And they are soon to follow.....
When you ignore staff, en masse, regardless of profession or motive, then all you'll ever do is degrade morale and kill any sliver of good will that remains.
MACC is not a good place to work now. People are unhappy. They feel disenfranchised, ignored, put upon and hopeless - or at least those anti-NPC move folk amongst us do. And the rest feel equally unhappy because they have to listen to us
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"When you ignore staff, en masse, regardless of profession or motive, then all you'll ever do is degrade morale and kill any sliver of good will that remains." and "People are unhappy. They feel disenfranchised, ignored, put upon and hopeless "
Deary deary me!!
Sounds like life at any NATS regional airport North of the border!
So life isn't so rosey for some of our area colleagues. Tough!!
We at the airports have been s*at on for years and now someone in NERL is getting it.
Why don't you retrain as a Twr/App controller and stay at Manchester, filling the shortages they may have and in the process taking ATCO3 promotion slots! Oh sorry, thats already happened once. Isn't morale a wonderful thing!
My heart bleeds. You are a mobile grade, it's in your contract so like it or leave and go elsewhere, or will you struggle to match your 90+ grand.
Deary deary me!!
Sounds like life at any NATS regional airport North of the border!
So life isn't so rosey for some of our area colleagues. Tough!!
We at the airports have been s*at on for years and now someone in NERL is getting it.
Why don't you retrain as a Twr/App controller and stay at Manchester, filling the shortages they may have and in the process taking ATCO3 promotion slots! Oh sorry, thats already happened once. Isn't morale a wonderful thing!
My heart bleeds. You are a mobile grade, it's in your contract so like it or leave and go elsewhere, or will you struggle to match your 90+ grand.
Last edited by Hootin an a roarin; 17th Feb 2008 at 00:35.
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Ceannairceach
As a friendly PPruner (your words),
and other bits you have posted but I cannot be bothered to quote... may I politely say that you are not qualified to make that statement about the people at West Drayton.
Some of us have every right, the same way that some of those at MACC have as little right to whinge as some of the West Drayton movers did.
100 miles, 200 miles or 330 miles (last one is roughly MACC to Prestwick) - who are you to say what is an acceptable and do-able commute (have you tried the M25-M3 run)? Once you get into the realms of circa 100 miles, then it is as significant as a 300 mile commute in-so-much that it is not something that people will want to do every day.
Therefore there are many people who are eligible to comment - much the same as there aere many at MACC who have as little right to whinge as at TC did.
My case alone - and I know I am not the only one by any means - my commute was going to be over 150 miles - not something I was prepared to do. So what did I have to do? Well my partner who has lived all her life in the area we used to live in had to up sticks and move her job... we based the area we bought our house in (more expensive brick for brick than in Scotland) on where her new job (working for a sub division of the company she used to work for) would be as well as mine to make the commute equal.
She has now lost her job because it has been relocated back to where she used to live.
I'm not exactly happy, but when you sign the dotted line, you know you are in a mobile grade... just because you have been lucky enough not to be moved for years does not take that fact away.
The main point of this story is - please do not dare to tell me or my colleagues that they are not qualified to comment when you have not got the foggiest idea what some peoples circumstances are.
As a friendly PPruner (your words),
Sure, those of you who shifted from West Drayton to LACC had to move too. I accept that readily and with genuine sympathy. But did your families have to move too? Did you have to uproot your entire lives and sacrifice 50% of your joint income and standard of life because of the move down the motorway?
Of course not. And there ends your right to compare the two situations as far as I'm concerned.
Of course not. And there ends your right to compare the two situations as far as I'm concerned.
Some of us have every right, the same way that some of those at MACC have as little right to whinge as some of the West Drayton movers did.
100 miles, 200 miles or 330 miles (last one is roughly MACC to Prestwick) - who are you to say what is an acceptable and do-able commute (have you tried the M25-M3 run)? Once you get into the realms of circa 100 miles, then it is as significant as a 300 mile commute in-so-much that it is not something that people will want to do every day.
Therefore there are many people who are eligible to comment - much the same as there aere many at MACC who have as little right to whinge as at TC did.
My case alone - and I know I am not the only one by any means - my commute was going to be over 150 miles - not something I was prepared to do. So what did I have to do? Well my partner who has lived all her life in the area we used to live in had to up sticks and move her job... we based the area we bought our house in (more expensive brick for brick than in Scotland) on where her new job (working for a sub division of the company she used to work for) would be as well as mine to make the commute equal.
She has now lost her job because it has been relocated back to where she used to live.
I'm not exactly happy, but when you sign the dotted line, you know you are in a mobile grade... just because you have been lucky enough not to be moved for years does not take that fact away.
The main point of this story is - please do not dare to tell me or my colleagues that they are not qualified to comment when you have not got the foggiest idea what some peoples circumstances are.
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See anotherthing, that's precisely it. And to paraphrase you a little....
I would suggest that some of my colleagues down south do not dare to comment on the move-and-morale related issues of my MACC colleagues and I, when most don't have the foggiest idea what our circumstances are.
Apart from, that is, when one of us foolishly posts here in the vain hope of getting any slight glimmer of support or at the least a sensible and mature reaction.
In my post I did, of course, omit the usual tired but no less important arguments pertaining to the educational, housing and legal system being completely different in Scotland - amongst the other differences. Issues that were not relevant when West Drayton shifted along the motorways.
So indeed, none of the folk who moved from TC/AC to LACC are qualified to comment on such issues with the blunt faced, mean spirited dismissiveness that we're usually offered. We're moving to what is, to many intents and purposes a different country. Not in a massive way, but in way massive enough to have a direct effect on our lives and the lives of the families we drag along with us.
So do me a favour, as a fellow friendly PPruner, heed your own advice perhaps. Or at least distance yourself from your own colleagues who participate in behaviour exactly like that you seek to stop.
And "Hootin an a roarin" - my £90k? Lord, I wish, my errant and annoyed friend.
Your attitude sums up what stinks about our company, or as it is now our two different companies, at the moment. When people get shafted it turns them bitter, it turns them cold to their colleagues and it turns them totally apathetic to the greater good.
We're all working in a "I'm alright Jack" environment.
Either that or "Well I had to do it, why shouldn't you?" scenario.
Or, heaven forfend, a "I'm being shafted so I'm really glad you're being shafted" situation.
One hopes, old chap, that you don't carry forward the attitudes you've displayed in your post there through to your operational task?
And if you're getting shafted in NSL, why haven't you jumped ship to the utopian, £90k a year NERL side of things before now?
I'd extremely politely suggest to you that in future you don't drag money into your debate. Because the moment you do it becomes vulgar, unsightly and childish. And similarly, jut because you've been shafted in your eyes, it doesn't mean everyone else should have to be. Oui?
I would suggest that some of my colleagues down south do not dare to comment on the move-and-morale related issues of my MACC colleagues and I, when most don't have the foggiest idea what our circumstances are.
Apart from, that is, when one of us foolishly posts here in the vain hope of getting any slight glimmer of support or at the least a sensible and mature reaction.
In my post I did, of course, omit the usual tired but no less important arguments pertaining to the educational, housing and legal system being completely different in Scotland - amongst the other differences. Issues that were not relevant when West Drayton shifted along the motorways.
So indeed, none of the folk who moved from TC/AC to LACC are qualified to comment on such issues with the blunt faced, mean spirited dismissiveness that we're usually offered. We're moving to what is, to many intents and purposes a different country. Not in a massive way, but in way massive enough to have a direct effect on our lives and the lives of the families we drag along with us.
So do me a favour, as a fellow friendly PPruner, heed your own advice perhaps. Or at least distance yourself from your own colleagues who participate in behaviour exactly like that you seek to stop.
And "Hootin an a roarin" - my £90k? Lord, I wish, my errant and annoyed friend.
Your attitude sums up what stinks about our company, or as it is now our two different companies, at the moment. When people get shafted it turns them bitter, it turns them cold to their colleagues and it turns them totally apathetic to the greater good.
We're all working in a "I'm alright Jack" environment.
Either that or "Well I had to do it, why shouldn't you?" scenario.
Or, heaven forfend, a "I'm being shafted so I'm really glad you're being shafted" situation.
One hopes, old chap, that you don't carry forward the attitudes you've displayed in your post there through to your operational task?
And if you're getting shafted in NSL, why haven't you jumped ship to the utopian, £90k a year NERL side of things before now?
I'd extremely politely suggest to you that in future you don't drag money into your debate. Because the moment you do it becomes vulgar, unsightly and childish. And similarly, jut because you've been shafted in your eyes, it doesn't mean everyone else should have to be. Oui?
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This is a genuine question, I'm just curious.
For anyone at MACC, is it the fact that you're moving at all or just the fact that it's to Scotland that is the major issue?
The writing has been on the wall for a long, long time that the sub-centre would eventually go, witness all the other outstations over the years that have been closed as operations were consolidated. Anyone working there must have known a move north or south was going to come eventually.
The two centre strategy is the only sensible one for the company as far as I can see, there's no justifiable requirement or special case for the sub-centre to remain in situ. At least, unlike many other companies that close factories or sites, there will still be a well paid job for many of the staff to go to.
So, would there have been the same discontent expressed if the move had been south rather than north or is it just more general discontent that the site is closing at all that is the main issue?
For anyone at MACC, is it the fact that you're moving at all or just the fact that it's to Scotland that is the major issue?
The writing has been on the wall for a long, long time that the sub-centre would eventually go, witness all the other outstations over the years that have been closed as operations were consolidated. Anyone working there must have known a move north or south was going to come eventually.
The two centre strategy is the only sensible one for the company as far as I can see, there's no justifiable requirement or special case for the sub-centre to remain in situ. At least, unlike many other companies that close factories or sites, there will still be a well paid job for many of the staff to go to.
So, would there have been the same discontent expressed if the move had been south rather than north or is it just more general discontent that the site is closing at all that is the main issue?
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Sorry
Had a few too many sherberts last night, I meant 80 grand.
However I felt compelled to post as this whingeing has been going on for too long. At the airports we have whinged for years without anybody noticeing. As the minority within NATS and more importantly the Union the regional airports have been shafted for years. Ceannairceach, where were you when we had problems, Banding in particular? That got railroaded through the union vote as the Band4/5 people have and always will have the majority of the votes. Look after yourselves boys.
So moaning on here; do you all wish to gain sympathy from us when you have shown us non in return or what?
You have been well paid for years in an area where housing etc is relatively cheap (you don't have to live in Alderley Edge and I am from the area) compared to the London boys and girls, but now you may have to live across the border, like a lot of us from Manc, who cannot work back home.
When Barron sells off some of the airports and we may be forced to move to stay within NATS you can bet your a**e there will be little sympathy from the area guys.
Thats life, you are moving so get on with it!
Had a few too many sherberts last night, I meant 80 grand.
However I felt compelled to post as this whingeing has been going on for too long. At the airports we have whinged for years without anybody noticeing. As the minority within NATS and more importantly the Union the regional airports have been shafted for years. Ceannairceach, where were you when we had problems, Banding in particular? That got railroaded through the union vote as the Band4/5 people have and always will have the majority of the votes. Look after yourselves boys.
So moaning on here; do you all wish to gain sympathy from us when you have shown us non in return or what?
You have been well paid for years in an area where housing etc is relatively cheap (you don't have to live in Alderley Edge and I am from the area) compared to the London boys and girls, but now you may have to live across the border, like a lot of us from Manc, who cannot work back home.
When Barron sells off some of the airports and we may be forced to move to stay within NATS you can bet your a**e there will be little sympathy from the area guys.
Thats life, you are moving so get on with it!
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Roffa - "For anyone at MACC, is it the fact that you're moving at all or just the fact that it's to Scotland that is the major issue?"
IMO as a MACC dweller....First, human nature for the majority of people is such that a move anywhere isn't going to go down well. Second, the commute distance is such that even driving/flying it once a cycle is bad news...ask the trainee who did it (in reverse) for 18 months. Third - for some, the fact it's to Scotland is an issue. Some of the reasons quoted have been a bit dubious but many have real merit i.e. education system differences etc. Fourth - the particular part of Scotland we're talking about, even has some of the rightly patriotic Scots I work with, turning their noses up. And two Glasweigan friends of mine (nowt to do with ATC) don't exactly sing the praises of Ayrshire.
As for "there will still be a well paid job for many of the staff to go to"....the ATSA's have had two contradictory staff notices (issued within days of each other?!) about their futures...you think some of the ATCO's are p***ed off!
And thoughts about a (hypothetical) move South over a move North?....based on rest-room banter, don't think a move South would have seen the same numbers voting with their feet.
As an aside, anyone see what the French got up to last week as a result of proposals to move some of them from one side of Paris to the other?!
Hootin - wow, are you upset. You seem to take a certain amount of satisfaction at the NERL relocations (amongst other things)....think you've had "little sympathy from the area guys" in the past? Well I suspect your life with NSL aint going to be getting any easier the next couple of years...if you think it's about your NERL collegues stitching up NSL collegues or the union forgetting about you, think again...with the current system it's just weight of numbers....numbers that you're doing nothing to win over to your cause. Bit more solidarity across the board wouldn't be such a bad thing eh?
IMO as a MACC dweller....First, human nature for the majority of people is such that a move anywhere isn't going to go down well. Second, the commute distance is such that even driving/flying it once a cycle is bad news...ask the trainee who did it (in reverse) for 18 months. Third - for some, the fact it's to Scotland is an issue. Some of the reasons quoted have been a bit dubious but many have real merit i.e. education system differences etc. Fourth - the particular part of Scotland we're talking about, even has some of the rightly patriotic Scots I work with, turning their noses up. And two Glasweigan friends of mine (nowt to do with ATC) don't exactly sing the praises of Ayrshire.
As for "there will still be a well paid job for many of the staff to go to"....the ATSA's have had two contradictory staff notices (issued within days of each other?!) about their futures...you think some of the ATCO's are p***ed off!
And thoughts about a (hypothetical) move South over a move North?....based on rest-room banter, don't think a move South would have seen the same numbers voting with their feet.
As an aside, anyone see what the French got up to last week as a result of proposals to move some of them from one side of Paris to the other?!
Hootin - wow, are you upset. You seem to take a certain amount of satisfaction at the NERL relocations (amongst other things)....think you've had "little sympathy from the area guys" in the past? Well I suspect your life with NSL aint going to be getting any easier the next couple of years...if you think it's about your NERL collegues stitching up NSL collegues or the union forgetting about you, think again...with the current system it's just weight of numbers....numbers that you're doing nothing to win over to your cause. Bit more solidarity across the board wouldn't be such a bad thing eh?
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Notwithstanding that it is difficult to get released for a transfer from any unit, how many MACC staff who are unhappy with the move actually have posting requests for TC or AC in the system ??
If not willing to move North, and no request to move to Swanwick has been made, then why not ??
The move to Jockistan has been on the drawing board since the mid 1990's. That's 10+ years it has been known about within the company and nearer 15 years from conception to actually taking place. That's a long time to consider options and make a decision. Had the new centre at Prestwick been on time, you'd have been there since around 1999 anyway.
Someone mentioned that it would have been nice for staff to have a view on the move. It perhaps would have been, but in the end NATS is not a democracy so I am not sure what value it would have except to prove that NATS asked for views and then ignored them anyway (for sound business reasons). Would that annoy staff more or less than they are today ??
The two centre strategy was a corner stone of the Private Public Partnership, so as soon as that method of running NATS was agreed by our Judas Labour government, the fate of people at MACC and West Drayton was sealed. By also putting NATS in to a position where our customers would have transparent views of our costs and future investments, the multitude of units was bound to be a top target for reduction so driving down our costs and providing business resilience through common systems and equitable sizes of operation. The writing was on the wall ... and always has been. Sometimes you need to step back a bit though so you can actually read it.
If not willing to move North, and no request to move to Swanwick has been made, then why not ??
The move to Jockistan has been on the drawing board since the mid 1990's. That's 10+ years it has been known about within the company and nearer 15 years from conception to actually taking place. That's a long time to consider options and make a decision. Had the new centre at Prestwick been on time, you'd have been there since around 1999 anyway.
Someone mentioned that it would have been nice for staff to have a view on the move. It perhaps would have been, but in the end NATS is not a democracy so I am not sure what value it would have except to prove that NATS asked for views and then ignored them anyway (for sound business reasons). Would that annoy staff more or less than they are today ??
The two centre strategy was a corner stone of the Private Public Partnership, so as soon as that method of running NATS was agreed by our Judas Labour government, the fate of people at MACC and West Drayton was sealed. By also putting NATS in to a position where our customers would have transparent views of our costs and future investments, the multitude of units was bound to be a top target for reduction so driving down our costs and providing business resilience through common systems and equitable sizes of operation. The writing was on the wall ... and always has been. Sometimes you need to step back a bit though so you can actually read it.
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PPRuNe Radar- "The move to Jockistan has been on the drawing board since the mid 1990's. That's 10+ years it has been known about within the company and nearer 15 years from conception to actually taking place."
I know people posted to MACC in '97 and '98 who on their written posting notice were advised that they were a mobile grade and that they would be moving SOUTH with MACC when it shut?!
So yes, we've known we were due to move but, on the shop floor at least, not for as long as you allude to and not in the direction a lot of people expected to be going!
I know people posted to MACC in '97 and '98 who on their written posting notice were advised that they were a mobile grade and that they would be moving SOUTH with MACC when it shut?!
So yes, we've known we were due to move but, on the shop floor at least, not for as long as you allude to and not in the direction a lot of people expected to be going!
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"Bit more solidarity across the board wouldn't be such a bad thing eh? "
Why does this only now come into question when you have problems? You have not been into solidarity in the past when others were being screwed over.
Same as the LHR boys when they were being messed around with their new tower move. They had been fat dumb and happy, remaining quiet when the regionals became the even poorer relations within the company. Then they get a spanner in the works and want everyone to 'stick together' and support them. Too late matey!!
Plus reference the Union. The weight in numbers is there as a collective supposedly to look after the minority, but not ours. It looks after mainly the area guys as they are the majority and screws the minority just like management. I believe one of the Union mandates is to reduce the differential in the Banding system between 1/2/3 and bands 4+5. However seeing as band 4+5 have the majority vote then my cynical mind can't see that ever happening can you?
Solidarity Brother!!
Why does this only now come into question when you have problems? You have not been into solidarity in the past when others were being screwed over.
Same as the LHR boys when they were being messed around with their new tower move. They had been fat dumb and happy, remaining quiet when the regionals became the even poorer relations within the company. Then they get a spanner in the works and want everyone to 'stick together' and support them. Too late matey!!
Plus reference the Union. The weight in numbers is there as a collective supposedly to look after the minority, but not ours. It looks after mainly the area guys as they are the majority and screws the minority just like management. I believe one of the Union mandates is to reduce the differential in the Banding system between 1/2/3 and bands 4+5. However seeing as band 4+5 have the majority vote then my cynical mind can't see that ever happening can you?
Solidarity Brother!!
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To be fair when I started at MACC in the dim and distant past I was told, officially, we'd be moving south, not to Scotland. Clearly wrongly, but that's what I and the majority of people of the unit were told by our management at that time.
Also, I could be wrong on this but I'm pretty sure those who have applied for moves down south in the near recent past have been given a firm not happening by management. Unless promotion is involved. Perhaps a fellow MACC-dweller can confirm that?
We've had a lot of people leave MACC in the past 10 years or so - loads to Canada, quite a few to the college and a similar number to NSL. There are so many people competing for the few alternatives there are that it's never going to quall the concerns and worries of the majority of staff.
And Radar, I agree, from a business perspective the two centre strategy is a water-tight one after we were betrayed by those who allegedly serve us. But since when did the majority of staff do what's best for the business generally when their own lives are being affected in such a major way. It's human nature.
Hootin an a roarin - you do us a great disservice by suggesting that we're all not interested in solidarity and support for one's colleagues. We're certainly not all selfish in that way - it's fair to say I think that I'm definitely not. But I'm in an ever-shrinking minority. Especially now business has replaced ethics.
macker - as an Irishman, indeed a Wexford man, albeit a diluted one now, I'd love to come home. Sadly, my partner, being a Dubliner born and bred, is less keen to return home. To say the least...
But one day I'll come home. I will.
Also, I could be wrong on this but I'm pretty sure those who have applied for moves down south in the near recent past have been given a firm not happening by management. Unless promotion is involved. Perhaps a fellow MACC-dweller can confirm that?
We've had a lot of people leave MACC in the past 10 years or so - loads to Canada, quite a few to the college and a similar number to NSL. There are so many people competing for the few alternatives there are that it's never going to quall the concerns and worries of the majority of staff.
And Radar, I agree, from a business perspective the two centre strategy is a water-tight one after we were betrayed by those who allegedly serve us. But since when did the majority of staff do what's best for the business generally when their own lives are being affected in such a major way. It's human nature.
Hootin an a roarin - you do us a great disservice by suggesting that we're all not interested in solidarity and support for one's colleagues. We're certainly not all selfish in that way - it's fair to say I think that I'm definitely not. But I'm in an ever-shrinking minority. Especially now business has replaced ethics.
macker - as an Irishman, indeed a Wexford man, albeit a diluted one now, I'd love to come home. Sadly, my partner, being a Dubliner born and bred, is less keen to return home. To say the least...
But one day I'll come home. I will.
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Dear Marge
Dear Marge, my cousin Jethro is being deported to Australia for breakin'-up weavin' looms. Am I too late to prevent this? Yours sincerely Richard Arkwright.I say chaps anyone got any good ATC stories to put on this ATC web site instead of all this hitting each other with clubs nonsense?
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Well you could come to Aberdeen.Offshore is an Area function.It's a lot drier than Manchester and good quality of life.Oh you would get a £17K pay cut,perhaps with a parachute,but then that was voted for wasn't it.
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Roy McNulty stated this in response to the announcement of PPP in 1999.
I guess I must have seen options papers, etc, in the couple of years preceeding this which put the proposal to move MACC 'oop North' in the thoughts of NATS, hence my recollections.
The Prospect website mentions the move, dated 2003, but another site mentions the decision in 2001.
Maybe MACC management either weren't told, or put their heads in the sand. Both entirely believable on Planet NATS !!!
He said if the private/public partnership had not been put on the table the only other way to pursue the Prestwick plan would be to close the Manchester centre.
The Prospect website mentions the move, dated 2003, but another site mentions the decision in 2001.
Maybe MACC management either weren't told, or put their heads in the sand. Both entirely believable on Planet NATS !!!
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Throughout this discussion about having to relocate, spare a thought for the ATSA grade.
At least ATCO's will have a job with stacks of overtime due to the lack of staff. NATS is hell bent on introducing electronic strips as a number one priority in PC, which will negate largely the need for ATSA's.
I would have thought this is a more serious issue than moving home. When I was in the RAF I moved with my family every 2 or 3 years as a mobile grade .
I really think a reality check is needed here, some people don't know when they are well off, largely I would suggest due to lack of life experience in general.
At least ATCO's will have a job with stacks of overtime due to the lack of staff. NATS is hell bent on introducing electronic strips as a number one priority in PC, which will negate largely the need for ATSA's.
I would have thought this is a more serious issue than moving home. When I was in the RAF I moved with my family every 2 or 3 years as a mobile grade .
I really think a reality check is needed here, some people don't know when they are well off, largely I would suggest due to lack of life experience in general.
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Ceannairceach
(I see from your profile you joined PPrune in 2007 and call yourself a 'whippersnapper' - how long have you been in NATS? A relevant question if you haven't been in that long - though because this is anonymous, you can spin me any line so we will never know the truth)
Indeed you did not mention the housing, education or legal system wrt the move.
Many people would argue that the education and legal system in Scotland are better than in England. Just ask people in England how much of a lottery it is to get kids into a 'good' school.
WRT the housing situation, when you mention the differences, do you mean that you are unhappy over the fact that it's cheaper to buy in Scotland i.e. you get more for your money? (One of the factors down south being tied into education standards and the inflated prices in catchment areas for 'good' schools)
Maybe Human Factors can save people time by designing a new personnel document that we can fill in on initial recruitment. I'll start it off, but maybe someone with the HF expertise can tidy it up.
Despite what you say, Scotland is still in the UK. Yes, your unit is having to move further than TC to west drayton, but a commute is a commute...
Baloon24 hit the nail on the head (possibly unwittingly) when they said
Why should anyone have to be removed from their family in such a way... it is understandable that you would want to be able to go home every night, no one should feel that they have to stay apart from family when not on days off.
That is why we can compare the west drayton move to the MACC move - some people would have had a 100+ miles each way commute to get to Swanwick. Not acceptable to do everyday, so they were face with the 'up sticks and move the whole family' scenario.
You are splitting hairs when you talk about a move from one part of England to another being hugely different from a move from Manchester to Prestwick. The same worries about educational differences, etc etc apply.
What is happpening to you guys at MACC is not pleasant, but it's not exactly a surprise. The move to Scotland has been on the cards for years - despite what you say about what you had initially been told (i.e. that you would move south).
If you are so bothered, put in a letter requesting a move to Swanwick. You might not get it straight away, but once the dust has settled you will have the chance to move from Prestwick to Swanwick (and it will mean another paid move so you will benefit even more).
I honestly do not understand what all the bleating is meant to achieve on this thread, unless you are trying to set up some compensation claim (which has no legs to stand on).
So you are moving to Scotland. There are plenty people who had to make the move from WD to Swanwick who are unhappy about it even though it is closer (read TCZulu's rants). Unfortunately the company cannot please everyone.
The 2 centre strategy makes sound business sense. It provides redundancy.
MACC is better situated in Prestwick as far as the company are concerned as it means that the company will have the best split of resources if something catastrophic happens to either one of the centres.
You are moving. You have known about it for years.
End of story unless you leave NATS.
Not a pleasant statement, but a factual one. At least as an ATCO you have a future.
Ballon24
As an aside -
That's a horrible situation to be put in, however it is not down to the move, it is down to the way we are progressing to a paperless workplace. 'Streamlining (a horrible word) would have happened in a few years anyway. It's going to happen at Swanwick as well (and in the towers).
Also, spare a thought for the many Engineers who were made redundant by the WD to Swanwick move.
The circumstances between the 2 moves are a lot closer than some people like to make out.
(I see from your profile you joined PPrune in 2007 and call yourself a 'whippersnapper' - how long have you been in NATS? A relevant question if you haven't been in that long - though because this is anonymous, you can spin me any line so we will never know the truth)
Indeed you did not mention the housing, education or legal system wrt the move.
Many people would argue that the education and legal system in Scotland are better than in England. Just ask people in England how much of a lottery it is to get kids into a 'good' school.
WRT the housing situation, when you mention the differences, do you mean that you are unhappy over the fact that it's cheaper to buy in Scotland i.e. you get more for your money? (One of the factors down south being tied into education standards and the inflated prices in catchment areas for 'good' schools)
Maybe Human Factors can save people time by designing a new personnel document that we can fill in on initial recruitment. I'll start it off, but maybe someone with the HF expertise can tidy it up.
"I (insert name), Staff Number (insert), want to make it clear that I am being seen off/unhappy/whingeing*, about the fact that I will have to move from (insert) to (insert)/train on the new iFACTS/ModeS/TCNE Airspace/EFPS/(insert other)* and I have only been given 3/5/10/15* years notice.
I want it made clear that I am being hard/very hard/extremely hard* done by and my case is worse/much worse/10 times worse* than anyone else's.
I also want it made clear that I will put up with this despite my misgivings because despite all my moaning, I am a cash whore and I know I will not get the same amount of money and the same pension or benefits in another job."
*delete where applicable
I want it made clear that I am being hard/very hard/extremely hard* done by and my case is worse/much worse/10 times worse* than anyone else's.
I also want it made clear that I will put up with this despite my misgivings because despite all my moaning, I am a cash whore and I know I will not get the same amount of money and the same pension or benefits in another job."
*delete where applicable
Baloon24 hit the nail on the head (possibly unwittingly) when they said
...Second, the commute distance is such that even driving/flying it once a cycle is bad news...
That is why we can compare the west drayton move to the MACC move - some people would have had a 100+ miles each way commute to get to Swanwick. Not acceptable to do everyday, so they were face with the 'up sticks and move the whole family' scenario.
You are splitting hairs when you talk about a move from one part of England to another being hugely different from a move from Manchester to Prestwick. The same worries about educational differences, etc etc apply.
What is happpening to you guys at MACC is not pleasant, but it's not exactly a surprise. The move to Scotland has been on the cards for years - despite what you say about what you had initially been told (i.e. that you would move south).
If you are so bothered, put in a letter requesting a move to Swanwick. You might not get it straight away, but once the dust has settled you will have the chance to move from Prestwick to Swanwick (and it will mean another paid move so you will benefit even more).
I honestly do not understand what all the bleating is meant to achieve on this thread, unless you are trying to set up some compensation claim (which has no legs to stand on).
So you are moving to Scotland. There are plenty people who had to make the move from WD to Swanwick who are unhappy about it even though it is closer (read TCZulu's rants). Unfortunately the company cannot please everyone.
The 2 centre strategy makes sound business sense. It provides redundancy.
MACC is better situated in Prestwick as far as the company are concerned as it means that the company will have the best split of resources if something catastrophic happens to either one of the centres.
You are moving. You have known about it for years.
End of story unless you leave NATS.
Not a pleasant statement, but a factual one. At least as an ATCO you have a future.
Ballon24
As an aside -
As for "there will still be a well paid job for many of the staff to go to"....the ATSA's have had two contradictory staff notices (issued within days of each other?!) about their futures
Also, spare a thought for the many Engineers who were made redundant by the WD to Swanwick move.
The circumstances between the 2 moves are a lot closer than some people like to make out.
Last edited by anotherthing; 18th Feb 2008 at 10:48.
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AirFarce1
Sound post - I have alluded to the ATSAs/ATCEs in my latest (long) post which I was typing as you replied.
However when you joined the airforce, you knew that you would be moving every couple of years, so its a bit of a weak argument (even though you only get 6 months notice of where your next move will be in the forces, not 6 or more years!)...
Some of these guys have been at MACC for years and years. You cannot really equate the forces to NATS - I state this with my experience as Ex Forces, also moved around lots.
However they are a mobile grade and the move has been on the cards for many years now, so yes, they maybe do have a lack of life experience - especially if all they know is NATS.
Sound post - I have alluded to the ATSAs/ATCEs in my latest (long) post which I was typing as you replied.
However when you joined the airforce, you knew that you would be moving every couple of years, so its a bit of a weak argument (even though you only get 6 months notice of where your next move will be in the forces, not 6 or more years!)...
Some of these guys have been at MACC for years and years. You cannot really equate the forces to NATS - I state this with my experience as Ex Forces, also moved around lots.
However they are a mobile grade and the move has been on the cards for many years now, so yes, they maybe do have a lack of life experience - especially if all they know is NATS.