Sa Atc- Acc Jhb - Staffing
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Looks like one of the options being considered is an extension of the endowment policy (aka the retention package) which matures in Aug, on a year to year basis.
Considering the growth of those policies and the benefits of an endowment policy, that might not be a bad option.
Considering the growth of those policies and the benefits of an endowment policy, that might not be a bad option.
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Again that's only if you're planning to stay, and what about the staff that's not on a current retension package?
In the end that's not a bad plan from the company, that is if it is their plan.........?
It makes too much sense so it probably isn't.
In the end that's not a bad plan from the company, that is if it is their plan.........?
It makes too much sense so it probably isn't.
Join Date: Jan 2006
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Those of you serious about applying to Australia, might I suggest you register and post on the Civil Air Website.
You might find it enlightening about what has been going on of late with yet another restructure last week, and some of the issues surrounding recent selection for postings. Not all of this info is available in the public forums but if you ask the right questions, you might be surprised at some of the answers.
You might find it enlightening about what has been going on of late with yet another restructure last week, and some of the issues surrounding recent selection for postings. Not all of this info is available in the public forums but if you ask the right questions, you might be surprised at some of the answers.
Join Date: Feb 2007
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Duneboy
Hi to all!
This is my very first "outing" to this forum. Very interesting to read all the known problems of the years in the past and those to come. Feel like time has stopped in ATNS!
One question: any information on Educats? I dropped myself in s...I mean trouble, few years ago expressing crap opinion about it.
Ended up in
sand. Everything written in the contract, short, straight forward, clear! Not at all ideal but much better than ATNS.
This is my very first "outing" to this forum. Very interesting to read all the known problems of the years in the past and those to come. Feel like time has stopped in ATNS!
One question: any information on Educats? I dropped myself in s...I mean trouble, few years ago expressing crap opinion about it.
Ended up in
sand. Everything written in the contract, short, straight forward, clear! Not at all ideal but much better than ATNS.
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I think 6 educats made it, 5 in Cpt and 1 in Joburg. It was scrapped and rightly so. They are now on PATC scales and of the ones that skipped tower and went straight to Acc control can't tell you the difference between a Cherokee and a C210.
Join Date: Sep 2006
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Now then, this thread is about to rival the ASA Global search one. Retention packages will not keep people in check. What will keep them in check is a proper monthly salary. The workers can not get a good rise(sounds kinky, but isn't) out of ATNS by means of negotiations. They allways have the upper hand. Arbitrating for 8% vs 6% is not worth the trouble. Back when Hein was president of the union the controllers were sold off for 30 pieses of silver by the then union. For some reason the union agreed to becoming essential services. This was supposed to be for a limited period of time. I'm talking 10+ years ago. You guys must lean on GATCSA to lean on Solidarity to get this bane of existence lifted. Therein lies salvation.
Yapping on this forum about how crappy the place is will not improve your situation. Do something constructive. Salary negotiations is done. Start fighting for a minimum service agreement. AJB was deadset against this for obvious reasons. He is gone now. Get the help of Solidarity. You pay your money so (ab)use them. Once/if you have a minimum service in place use this to have essential service lifted. Once that is done, gaan mal. And don't take any whining from the president about keeping a good relationship with ATNS. COSATU doesn't give a fcuk, GATCSA does. COSATU gets results, GATCSA doesn't.
These things (like most) don't happen overnight, but get your collective @rses in gear and DO SOMETHING. Your only hope is the union, but YOU must tell THEM what to do. The natural state of any object is rest and GATCSA will do nothing unless the members tell them to. Unfortunately the apathy amongst the members can be measured with a calender. This is your own fault, sitting on "Moedverloor se vlakte" whining and bleating about bad pay and conditions but not willing to stand up and be counted. Typical.
Please don't read this as an attack on the union. Maybe they are busy with this, maybe not. But for God's sake, stop wallowing in your self pity and grow a backbone!
Yapping on this forum about how crappy the place is will not improve your situation. Do something constructive. Salary negotiations is done. Start fighting for a minimum service agreement. AJB was deadset against this for obvious reasons. He is gone now. Get the help of Solidarity. You pay your money so (ab)use them. Once/if you have a minimum service in place use this to have essential service lifted. Once that is done, gaan mal. And don't take any whining from the president about keeping a good relationship with ATNS. COSATU doesn't give a fcuk, GATCSA does. COSATU gets results, GATCSA doesn't.
These things (like most) don't happen overnight, but get your collective @rses in gear and DO SOMETHING. Your only hope is the union, but YOU must tell THEM what to do. The natural state of any object is rest and GATCSA will do nothing unless the members tell them to. Unfortunately the apathy amongst the members can be measured with a calender. This is your own fault, sitting on "Moedverloor se vlakte" whining and bleating about bad pay and conditions but not willing to stand up and be counted. Typical.
Please don't read this as an attack on the union. Maybe they are busy with this, maybe not. But for God's sake, stop wallowing in your self pity and grow a backbone!
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HeLo!
I read carrefully this issue and as I could understand ATNS needs qualified ATCOs i.e. ATCO shortage is at critical level. I applied during the last summer for APP/RDR position within your company and your human resource department answered that I could be eligabled for such position and they would contact me . After this answer there were no any further contacts. And my question is : Do you really need ATCOs or it is just "warning" for currently ATCOs in your company?
Another question is related to overal security in your country. How much are Port Elizabeth or Cape Town safe for Europeans? and
What is personality test?
Best regards to SA ATCOs
I read carrefully this issue and as I could understand ATNS needs qualified ATCOs i.e. ATCO shortage is at critical level. I applied during the last summer for APP/RDR position within your company and your human resource department answered that I could be eligabled for such position and they would contact me . After this answer there were no any further contacts. And my question is : Do you really need ATCOs or it is just "warning" for currently ATCOs in your company?
Another question is related to overal security in your country. How much are Port Elizabeth or Cape Town safe for Europeans? and
What is personality test?
Best regards to SA ATCOs
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But for God's sake, stop wallowing in your self pity and grow a backbone!
Or of course just run off to the ME. Fighting words BS for someone who wasn't prepared to do the same mate.
Or of course just run off to the ME. Fighting words BS for someone who wasn't prepared to do the same mate.
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BOK2GO, please tell me you are not gonna jump on the You-Left-So-Shutup bandwagon. Soooo last year. I did my bit for a long time, not just by criticising but by offering solutions, putting GATCSA in contact with the right people. So I was never on the board. Neither is the majority but what exactely are the people that are left doing. Nothing but criticise. Some people, like you, are looking elsewhere. The overwhelming majority do not have that luxury. It is the "lifers" who realise that they can't go anywhere who whine the most. Instead of bettering their own situation at home they just sit and criticise. Get involved, make your presence felt. The economic power wielded by the hundred or so ATCs are formidable. Start exploiting this power. It's like the crime thing. Everybody moans but nobody does anything.
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BlueSky
I am in constant contact with my Gatcsa rep down here trying to better things for all staff. Like you said, things take time and you for one know how hard it is to get things right. You're welcome to your opinion but when you attack those left here telling them to grow a backbone then expect a backlash from those of us still fighting the fight.
Unlike most I don't think ATNS is all bad. They're getting a lot right. We work on some of the best hardware in the world, we don't work more than around 32 hours a week. We (in FACT) have a fantastic management team looking out for us.
Yes, our board has no idea what a competitive salary is, but I don't think we'll ever fix that through GATCSA or Solidarity. Like you, the ATCs are just going to have to vote with their feet. Unfortunate, but probably true. Our board considers us greedy and no amount of negotiation/work to rule/industrial action will convince them otherwise. It's going to take mass resignation over a short period of time to convince them that comparitive salaries are not judged on local markets but internationally.
I am in constant contact with my Gatcsa rep down here trying to better things for all staff. Like you said, things take time and you for one know how hard it is to get things right. You're welcome to your opinion but when you attack those left here telling them to grow a backbone then expect a backlash from those of us still fighting the fight.
Unlike most I don't think ATNS is all bad. They're getting a lot right. We work on some of the best hardware in the world, we don't work more than around 32 hours a week. We (in FACT) have a fantastic management team looking out for us.
Yes, our board has no idea what a competitive salary is, but I don't think we'll ever fix that through GATCSA or Solidarity. Like you, the ATCs are just going to have to vote with their feet. Unfortunate, but probably true. Our board considers us greedy and no amount of negotiation/work to rule/industrial action will convince them otherwise. It's going to take mass resignation over a short period of time to convince them that comparitive salaries are not judged on local markets but internationally.
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Mass resignations from those who are in a position to do so. What about those left behind? They have no bargaining power whatsoever and unless they do something about it they will never have. Sometimes things need to be said to shake people out of there little cocoon of complacency. I expect nothing less than a lot of flak over my comments. That is the whole idea.
The ACC pool in JS has lost 5 people in one year. ATNS will never do anything 'cause there is no impact on the airlines. The airlines don't complain because the service is provided. Only when services to the airlines are interrupted will ATNS do something. ATCs aren't in a position to interrupt the service because this constitutes industrial action and is unlawful under the current stipulations. These stipulations need to be changed and only GATCSA and Solidarity can. The members need to make GATCSA aware of their desire to have this changed. Are they? I think not. And that is my whole argument, get onto the blower to GATCSA, write letters, send e-mails, hell I'll give you the number for a guy who rents out pigeons if that floats your boat. Just don't sit on your behind and complain about the unfair hand you are being dealt without at least trying something, anything, to better your own situation.
BOK2GO, if you are one of those who are actually doing something constructive then my comments are not aimed at you. It is aimed at those who sit in the restroom and talk about how crappy the place is, then leave the restroom and turn back into "Ja baas, goed baas, dankie vir my job baas."(Yes boss, ok boss, thanks for my job boss.) Doesn't have the same effect in English.
The ACC pool in JS has lost 5 people in one year. ATNS will never do anything 'cause there is no impact on the airlines. The airlines don't complain because the service is provided. Only when services to the airlines are interrupted will ATNS do something. ATCs aren't in a position to interrupt the service because this constitutes industrial action and is unlawful under the current stipulations. These stipulations need to be changed and only GATCSA and Solidarity can. The members need to make GATCSA aware of their desire to have this changed. Are they? I think not. And that is my whole argument, get onto the blower to GATCSA, write letters, send e-mails, hell I'll give you the number for a guy who rents out pigeons if that floats your boat. Just don't sit on your behind and complain about the unfair hand you are being dealt without at least trying something, anything, to better your own situation.
BOK2GO, if you are one of those who are actually doing something constructive then my comments are not aimed at you. It is aimed at those who sit in the restroom and talk about how crappy the place is, then leave the restroom and turn back into "Ja baas, goed baas, dankie vir my job baas."(Yes boss, ok boss, thanks for my job boss.) Doesn't have the same effect in English.
Last edited by BlueSkye; 9th Feb 2007 at 08:19. Reason: Lost in translation
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Well said BlueSkye. I agree completely. Being classified as an essential service makes GATCSA a toothless dog. Also as I mentioned earlier on in this thread, unless the ATC losses affect the profitabilty of ATNS they could care less. I've seen many businesses that run under the same principles as ATNS, staff are just a means to and end. Thankfully most of them do care about the people who bring in the gold.
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Must say very interesting reading, somewhat hilarious at times...
Anybody else wondering where did GATSCA go? Maybe too many ques with no answers!? Wish I could find a forum with ATNS management, but unfortunately we have no contact, since everyone is in a meeting...
Darkness is a funny thing, it fuels the fire to keep the pot brewing nicely...
So many fingers pointing towards the poor sods that plan to stay and fight... missing the boat, hey? Well sometimes you need to swim towards the boat and hope and pray you make it. Unfortunately I love it here... and would hate to leave, does that then make me unworthy of the retention sceme?
Anybody else wondering where did GATSCA go? Maybe too many ques with no answers!? Wish I could find a forum with ATNS management, but unfortunately we have no contact, since everyone is in a meeting...
Darkness is a funny thing, it fuels the fire to keep the pot brewing nicely...
So many fingers pointing towards the poor sods that plan to stay and fight... missing the boat, hey? Well sometimes you need to swim towards the boat and hope and pray you make it. Unfortunately I love it here... and would hate to leave, does that then make me unworthy of the retention sceme?
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Would just like to add that I know it is unfashionable these days to be one of the few that wants to stay, not because you have to, but because you want to..
I also realise the benefit of threatening to leave!
I also realise the benefit of threatening to leave!
Last edited by aka mc; 12th Feb 2007 at 13:20.
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Well you'll benefit from it but it ain't aimed at you......
Nothing wrong with wanting to stay, we all have our own choices to make.
Have a look at this thread if you want more informed information at what atcs around the world are earning.
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=249107
Nothing wrong with wanting to stay, we all have our own choices to make.
Have a look at this thread if you want more informed information at what atcs around the world are earning.
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=249107
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B2G
How can you say that the retention is not aimed at me? Anyway retention smention... as you said it wont keep you here.
I am so sick and tired of all the "the ship is sinking" crap... Life goes on, no one is going to be missed by ATNS , so what if there is a few faces missing?
Why does it always have to be so dramatic? Yes, there will be a problem when everybody that threatens really leaves, but until then I think there is alot of others that wants to stay, but you only hear the loadmouth threats. Unfortunately as you just proved, it doesnt make you popular if you are not willing to jump on the bandwagon... Well mr 2go, if you really want to go, do it, its alot of money and a geat opportunity. Or accept the fact that in SA you will never ever earn a UAE salary.
How can you say that the retention is not aimed at me? Anyway retention smention... as you said it wont keep you here.
I am so sick and tired of all the "the ship is sinking" crap... Life goes on, no one is going to be missed by ATNS , so what if there is a few faces missing?
Why does it always have to be so dramatic? Yes, there will be a problem when everybody that threatens really leaves, but until then I think there is alot of others that wants to stay, but you only hear the loadmouth threats. Unfortunately as you just proved, it doesnt make you popular if you are not willing to jump on the bandwagon... Well mr 2go, if you really want to go, do it, its alot of money and a geat opportunity. Or accept the fact that in SA you will never ever earn a UAE salary.
Last edited by aka mc; 13th Feb 2007 at 07:01.
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At the risk of sounding condecending, retension package = to retain staff. If you're not leaving then you don't need to be retained. This retension lock in is designed specifically to persuade those that want to leave not to. That said, you're welcome to the money those threatening to leave are organising for you.
You're absolutely 100% entitled to stay without any recrimination from anybody, least me. I'm not judging you in the least for it. Don't hold it against me though for wanting to leave though. As stated previously in this thread I'm not leaving for money but for a better life for my family.
Many others are leaving for more money. Again, it's a choice we all make for ourselves and for whatever reason they leave it's not to be judged by others.
Do not however be told by the company that you're earning a market related salary because you're not.
You're absolutely 100% entitled to stay without any recrimination from anybody, least me. I'm not judging you in the least for it. Don't hold it against me though for wanting to leave though. As stated previously in this thread I'm not leaving for money but for a better life for my family.
Many others are leaving for more money. Again, it's a choice we all make for ourselves and for whatever reason they leave it's not to be judged by others.
Do not however be told by the company that you're earning a market related salary because you're not.
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AKA MC
We'd all like to stay, but if your the bread winner in the family they're making it increasingly difficult to have any life style to speak of. The cost of personal security, 8 foot high fences and feeding my ravinouse pack of leathal dogs costs mega bucks. Go and try get a home loan on our salary not bottom scale but closer to the top and you may be offered enough to buy a 2 bedroomed "house" in Cross roads. I keep wondering if your posts are a joke from one of the guys trying to wind us up, it worked! If not keep burying your head in the sand, keep your bum wiggling could make an easy target for a drive by. I love it here but can no longer aford to stay and provide my family with an adequit standard of living with peace of mind and a clear conscience.
Regards
22
We'd all like to stay, but if your the bread winner in the family they're making it increasingly difficult to have any life style to speak of. The cost of personal security, 8 foot high fences and feeding my ravinouse pack of leathal dogs costs mega bucks. Go and try get a home loan on our salary not bottom scale but closer to the top and you may be offered enough to buy a 2 bedroomed "house" in Cross roads. I keep wondering if your posts are a joke from one of the guys trying to wind us up, it worked! If not keep burying your head in the sand, keep your bum wiggling could make an easy target for a drive by. I love it here but can no longer aford to stay and provide my family with an adequit standard of living with peace of mind and a clear conscience.
Regards
22
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MC most of us would love to stay, but they are making it increasingly difficult if you are the bread winner. The cost of personal security, 8 foot high walls and food for my pack of ravinous leathal dogs costs mega bucks. Try applying for a home loan not bottom scale, but closer to the top and you'll receive enough to pay for a 2 bedroomed "house" in Cross Roads. I keep thinking your posts are one of the guys trying to wind us up, it worked! If not keep burying your head in the sand, keep your bum wiggling it'll make a easy target for a drive by ( or do you also believe the government when they say there's no problem). I would love to stay but I can no longer with a clear conscience and peace of mind provide my family with a decent standard of living and if there are employers who are offering better, be it life style or cash I'd have to be a fool not to be investigating these options and being as loud mouthed about it as I please.
regards
22
regards
22
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Blue Sky, all I can say is " on the money". What I can tell you is that solidarity is looking into the essential service policy but it will be a battle of note, ATNS will fight this as hard and unfare as possible. It is a priority even if it takes years. Us as employees, well, all I can say is that I'm always surprised at the weak support we give the Union i.e: amount of people turning up at meetings and sessions, how many even know what the collective agreement stipulates. ( I did'nt untill I got of my #@$#). We'll find out on Monday what we can complain about AGAIN ref. the holding staff scheme. Blue Sky, how is the beemer going?