Sa Atc- Acc Jhb - Staffing
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Seems ATNS is trying all the tricks to force guys to stay. What with those ridiculous training bonds, the promise of a major gratuity, aka retention bonus, and now a solid 9% as of April next year! Wow, whatever happened to backdating, or is that not part of the future? 
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Dct No Speed and 126.7
DNS
The 9% increase you referring to is on your cost to company package which is everything except the unit allowance and medical aid. This is exactly the same principle that has been applied over the past four years. Saying that it applies only to your basic salary is extremely misleading. On top of that ATNS is also increasing the unit allowance by 9% this year. This has not happened for a couple of years now. When one considers this increase then it appears to me that the only item that is not contributing to the increases for next year is the medical aid.
126.7
The increases are effective 1 April of each year until the end of March the next year. What back pay are you talking about???
Bok2Go
Superb entry in the occurence log. Well done boys.
Merry Xmas and happy new year to all where ever you may be.
DNS
The 9% increase you referring to is on your cost to company package which is everything except the unit allowance and medical aid. This is exactly the same principle that has been applied over the past four years. Saying that it applies only to your basic salary is extremely misleading. On top of that ATNS is also increasing the unit allowance by 9% this year. This has not happened for a couple of years now. When one considers this increase then it appears to me that the only item that is not contributing to the increases for next year is the medical aid.
126.7
The increases are effective 1 April of each year until the end of March the next year. What back pay are you talking about???
Bok2Go
Superb entry in the occurence log. Well done boys.
Merry Xmas and happy new year to all where ever you may be.
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The increases are effective 1 April of each year until the end of March the next year. What back pay are you talking about???
Every salary increase I've ever gotten was back dated by 6 months, a year or a given amount of time. That way you the boys and girls at the front benefit from the time lost while negotiations were taking place. Also, your Christmas presents don't get delivered by the easter bunny.
PS. Didn't SAA get an increase which was back dated by three years? Now thats what I'm talking about!
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Every salary increase I've ever gotten was back dated by 6 months
GATCSA - welcome. Did you (assuming you are GATCSA/Solidarity or just using the name) get the 9% increase by a mandate from the members? Or after the offer was made, refer it back to the members?
Cheers
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126.7
As per the collective and procedural agreement between ATNS and the union all negotiated remuneration increases are effective from 1 April of said year to 31 March of the next year i.e. the 9% we are talking about now is your general salary increase from 01 April 2007 until 31 March 2008. Historically during the past 12 years these negotiations have never been completed on time (01 April) for the increases to be implemented. There has always been an arbitration or delay of some sort. This is the reason your increases were always back dated to 01 April and you received back pay for some length of time. This is obviously dependent on when the negotiations were completed. Now for the first time ever, the union and the company have managed to complete the negotiations before the calender year has even started. This is good news in that you now know what will happen come April.
At this point I would like to remind you not to confuse this general increase with your experience/notch move that will occur on the anniversary of your course date.
By way of example I shall attempt to explain this to you. If you are a PATC (radar controller) working in Durban with two years experience and the anniversary of your course is August then you will find yourself in the following situation.
Your current cost to company salary = R280713.00 per annum
9% increase in April 2007, new CTC salary = R305977.00 per annum
August 2007 your experience move to the 3rd year notch so your ctc salary moves to R326028.00
This process continues until your reach the top of the respective salary band 10 years later (13 notches in the salary band).
Make a pull up
Solidarity sought a mandate from all its members in September 2006. Documentation on the notice boards countrywide. The union official received 2 (yes only two) responses. One from a JS member and one collective response from Bloemfontein. This particular one was unsigned and did not stipulate how many members were supporting it. This information was then compared to the economic forecasts made by the economists at Solidarity and the demand presented to management.
At the negotiations the offer from management was better than the demand put on the table by the union therefore the Solidarity official had no problem accepting the offer.
Should you wish to see the documents they are available in the GATCSA office. All you need to do is come to the office and ask to see them.
I hope this all helps
As per the collective and procedural agreement between ATNS and the union all negotiated remuneration increases are effective from 1 April of said year to 31 March of the next year i.e. the 9% we are talking about now is your general salary increase from 01 April 2007 until 31 March 2008. Historically during the past 12 years these negotiations have never been completed on time (01 April) for the increases to be implemented. There has always been an arbitration or delay of some sort. This is the reason your increases were always back dated to 01 April and you received back pay for some length of time. This is obviously dependent on when the negotiations were completed. Now for the first time ever, the union and the company have managed to complete the negotiations before the calender year has even started. This is good news in that you now know what will happen come April.
At this point I would like to remind you not to confuse this general increase with your experience/notch move that will occur on the anniversary of your course date.
By way of example I shall attempt to explain this to you. If you are a PATC (radar controller) working in Durban with two years experience and the anniversary of your course is August then you will find yourself in the following situation.
Your current cost to company salary = R280713.00 per annum
9% increase in April 2007, new CTC salary = R305977.00 per annum
August 2007 your experience move to the 3rd year notch so your ctc salary moves to R326028.00
This process continues until your reach the top of the respective salary band 10 years later (13 notches in the salary band).
Make a pull up
Solidarity sought a mandate from all its members in September 2006. Documentation on the notice boards countrywide. The union official received 2 (yes only two) responses. One from a JS member and one collective response from Bloemfontein. This particular one was unsigned and did not stipulate how many members were supporting it. This information was then compared to the economic forecasts made by the economists at Solidarity and the demand presented to management.
At the negotiations the offer from management was better than the demand put on the table by the union therefore the Solidarity official had no problem accepting the offer.
Should you wish to see the documents they are available in the GATCSA office. All you need to do is come to the office and ask to see them.
I hope this all helps
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So what you are saying GATCSA is that this is just the normal negotiated yearly increase and not the carrot to plug the hole in the sinking ship. Everybody and his mother knows that every April their is a notch move and a small increase. Does ATNS management think that because they finish the negotiations in Dec 2006 instead of Aug 2007 that this will make the people stay? Please tell me that there is more. The roster is barely functioning and the people leaving for other places are still on it. What happens when they are gone? What is M:ATS gonna do? Solve everything with " Hey, Chomma..... "?
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Blue
Yes you are right. This is just the normal yearly increases. It has nothing to do with any retention or whatever you would like to call it. That is a totally different subject. As for the rest of your post, I will not speculate.
Until later
Yes you are right. This is just the normal yearly increases. It has nothing to do with any retention or whatever you would like to call it. That is a totally different subject. As for the rest of your post, I will not speculate.
Until later
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Hi GATCSA
Since we have your ear there is a burning question I'd like to ask you.
The Instructors down in CPT have been very unhappy with the R50 an hour OJTI allowance. We've minuted it at every meeting and asked our Union representative to take it further but have recieved no joy yet.
Did this come up at the negotiations? Are you guys aware of our unhappiness over this? Would that have been the correct forum for this issue? If not, what would be?
I'm sure the Joburg guys, although getting more than R50/h, are feeling the same about the issue.
The Instructors down in CPT have been very unhappy with the R50 an hour OJTI allowance. We've minuted it at every meeting and asked our Union representative to take it further but have recieved no joy yet.
Did this come up at the negotiations? Are you guys aware of our unhappiness over this? Would that have been the correct forum for this issue? If not, what would be?
I'm sure the Joburg guys, although getting more than R50/h, are feeling the same about the issue.
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Bok2go
Your local rep did present a good paper recently about the OJTI. Management were quite surprised at what they saw and suggested that the unit allowance matrix be revisited with the idea of correcting the inherent faults and applying the matrix no matter what the result. The union has cautioned the company about the potential outcome this may cause. You may recall that the matrix has several serious flaws in it which need to be corrected first to make it fair to all concerned.
I am also well aware of the unhappy situation all the instructors are in at the moment. This topic is still on the union agenda and being looked at. We did not discuss it at the negotiations this year but it is an item that is currently being worked on and should there be some developments we'll inform your local rep as soon as possible.
A little bird has whispered in my ear just a day or two ago that there may be changes to the OJTI allowance. I have not been able to confirm this yet so consider this as a RUMOUR only until the union finds out more.
Cheers for now
Your local rep did present a good paper recently about the OJTI. Management were quite surprised at what they saw and suggested that the unit allowance matrix be revisited with the idea of correcting the inherent faults and applying the matrix no matter what the result. The union has cautioned the company about the potential outcome this may cause. You may recall that the matrix has several serious flaws in it which need to be corrected first to make it fair to all concerned.
I am also well aware of the unhappy situation all the instructors are in at the moment. This topic is still on the union agenda and being looked at. We did not discuss it at the negotiations this year but it is an item that is currently being worked on and should there be some developments we'll inform your local rep as soon as possible.
A little bird has whispered in my ear just a day or two ago that there may be changes to the OJTI allowance. I have not been able to confirm this yet so consider this as a RUMOUR only until the union finds out more.
Cheers for now
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Gatcsa
Thanks for the prompt reply.
When are the negotiations this year? It would be nice for me to give the instructors some feedback because we here are almost at the point of mass resignation from the OJTI pool.
When are the negotiations this year? It would be nice for me to give the instructors some feedback because we here are almost at the point of mass resignation from the OJTI pool.
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Hi GATCSA
Thanks for the informative replies thus far.
As you mentioned Notch increases, could you possibly shed some light on the following hypothetical situation:
Lets assume a SATC, currently employed by ATNS with 5 years experience at an outstation doing a combined TWR and Procedural Approach, goes on to complete the required course to become a PATC (either App Radar or Area) at one of the main stations. Will that individual's salary continue to progress at the same rate as if that person had stayed a SATC, ie onwards to years 6,7,8 etc(SATC); or will the individual's salary revert to that of an entry level PATC? Since one's salary cannot be decreased will it be "frozen" at its current level (5yrs SATC) until such time as the PATC notches catch up - which could take up to 3 or 4 years?
Many thanks, keep up the good work!
Thanks for the informative replies thus far.
As you mentioned Notch increases, could you possibly shed some light on the following hypothetical situation:
Lets assume a SATC, currently employed by ATNS with 5 years experience at an outstation doing a combined TWR and Procedural Approach, goes on to complete the required course to become a PATC (either App Radar or Area) at one of the main stations. Will that individual's salary continue to progress at the same rate as if that person had stayed a SATC, ie onwards to years 6,7,8 etc(SATC); or will the individual's salary revert to that of an entry level PATC? Since one's salary cannot be decreased will it be "frozen" at its current level (5yrs SATC) until such time as the PATC notches catch up - which could take up to 3 or 4 years?
Many thanks, keep up the good work!
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Bok2go
The negotiations for 2007/2008 have already been completed. The OJTI issue will be raised at our next quarterly meeting again. This should be sometime in late February, early March. We have not confirmed any dates yet for these meetings.
201
In the past the following principle has been applied and we would insist that this continues to happen. In the situation you have created you would remain a SATC after your radar course with all the relevant notch moves until such time that you validate your new radar rating and become a PATC. At that point you would be linearly moved into the PATC salary band i.e. if you were still on your 5 year notch as a SATC you would move into the 5 year PATC notch. ATNS recognises your experience as a SATC and sees no reason to "punish" your for advancing your career. By the by, this was a fight that Craig Cox fought for and managed to achieve before his accident.
Hope this helps
Happy new year to all.
The negotiations for 2007/2008 have already been completed. The OJTI issue will be raised at our next quarterly meeting again. This should be sometime in late February, early March. We have not confirmed any dates yet for these meetings.
201
In the past the following principle has been applied and we would insist that this continues to happen. In the situation you have created you would remain a SATC after your radar course with all the relevant notch moves until such time that you validate your new radar rating and become a PATC. At that point you would be linearly moved into the PATC salary band i.e. if you were still on your 5 year notch as a SATC you would move into the 5 year PATC notch. ATNS recognises your experience as a SATC and sees no reason to "punish" your for advancing your career. By the by, this was a fight that Craig Cox fought for and managed to achieve before his accident.
Hope this helps
Happy new year to all.
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Many thanks for the reply.
For the sake of clarity, is the linear moving up a "band" (ATC/SATC/PATC) into the same "notch" (years experience) on that next highest band a relatively new practice? If so, what date was it effective from?
Reason I ask is how would previous experience affect the scale? For example, using the same scenario as I sketched in my previous post, lets assume that same SATC, prior to validating as a SATC, had 2 years experience as an ATC (ie TWR). Would that in fact mean this person should then be on the 7 (ie 2 ATC + 5 SATC) year notch? And therefore after successfully validating as a PATC be moved directly onto the 7 year (or 8, depending on how long validation takes) notch?
For that matter, how would previous experience as an ATSA complicate the matter?
For the sake of clarity, is the linear moving up a "band" (ATC/SATC/PATC) into the same "notch" (years experience) on that next highest band a relatively new practice? If so, what date was it effective from?
Reason I ask is how would previous experience affect the scale? For example, using the same scenario as I sketched in my previous post, lets assume that same SATC, prior to validating as a SATC, had 2 years experience as an ATC (ie TWR). Would that in fact mean this person should then be on the 7 (ie 2 ATC + 5 SATC) year notch? And therefore after successfully validating as a PATC be moved directly onto the 7 year (or 8, depending on how long validation takes) notch?
For that matter, how would previous experience as an ATSA complicate the matter?
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A can of worms has just been opened...
First off this thread might have to be renamed "The SA ATC salary debate thread"
Secondly. GATCSA - where is this SATC/PATC band hopping written? As i understand it, you say that if I spend 10 years as a SATC in FARB, then course and validate as a FADN approach controller I will slot in at the 10 YEAR PATC band!!!
However if I work FADN tower for 10 years, then course and validate as a FADN PATC then I only fit in on the 1year band.
Am I misunderstanding? The unfair labour practice Law will have to be looked at if that is the case.
This applies to JS tower guys as well. (Waiting to fit into a system that is not well. Never mind those guys that waited for SAAF guys to push in!) So in the end it pays to wait at an outstation.
I hope i'm misunderstanding this, otherwise there will be a lot of unhappy people!
An analogy - You are an intern for 4 years, then qualify as a doctor and straight away move onto the 4 year doctor scale!
If this is the case, why bother having different names for the scales.
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Gatcsa
I understand from your reply then that the OJTI cause was put forward at the last quarterly meeting....?
I take it then we can expect some response on this topic from the company at the next one in Feb/Mar...?
We certainly hope thats the case or the training might slow dramatically down here.
PS. We had a resignation from the approach pool today. That makes it 5 ATC's in this month alone.
I take it then we can expect some response on this topic from the company at the next one in Feb/Mar...?
We certainly hope thats the case or the training might slow dramatically down here.
PS. We had a resignation from the approach pool today. That makes it 5 ATC's in this month alone.
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Just before anybody thinks nothing happens in PE. I know you all think it's the vacation station - we actually have 35+ an hour quite often due to all the training schools that we have here. We have also lost 4 ATC's in the last two months(3 PATC's and one TWR ATC) - 2 back to Ireland, ! to Oliver Tambo and 1 for a second trip to the Land of the Sand. That is 22% of our controllers!
Cheers
PS: I'm holding my breath for the retention scheme because I think it is going to cause great unhappiness in the stations besides JHB and CT
Cheers
PS: I'm holding my breath for the retention scheme because I think it is going to cause great unhappiness in the stations besides JHB and CT
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...so why are we bringing counts into this Radargod? Nobody is putting you down - don't be so defensive!
Truth is people are not leaving because ATNS is a bad , or pay bad - its more than that. Retention packages are only for those who don't have any ambition to leave anyway. They are the only ones who will push for it and be happy with it. Those wanting to leave, for whatever reasons (maybe wanting to push more than a mere 35+ in a VFR tower, safety, experience, adventure - whatever) will hang on for a while, maybe until the end of the package, probably not though. Either way - I wish we could all get more money, and then some more and more - after all we are greedy
N2N
Truth is people are not leaving because ATNS is a bad , or pay bad - its more than that. Retention packages are only for those who don't have any ambition to leave anyway. They are the only ones who will push for it and be happy with it. Those wanting to leave, for whatever reasons (maybe wanting to push more than a mere 35+ in a VFR tower, safety, experience, adventure - whatever) will hang on for a while, maybe until the end of the package, probably not though. Either way - I wish we could all get more money, and then some more and more - after all we are greedy
N2N
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No matter how much you earn, its never enough. Either you luv the job or not.
There is a global shortage of ATC's, therefore the demand is high and all our guys leave. Dont blame them either... until we start getting paid what we worth, the guys will continue to leave.
It doesnt really take a rocket scientist (or an ATC
) to figure out what the solution is to our critical staff shortage.
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Nookie2nite
I'm just trying to say that things don't only just happen in JHB and CPT like ATNS seem to think. We have a problem country wide and it should be addressed asap. Of the people that we interviewed in PE two failed because they failed the personality test, but they passed everything else. There are so many a##holes in the company, how do they set a benchmark? What I'm saying is that if the outstations are going to get screwed with the retention - people will leave from there as well. We at PE have also lost many controllers and avionicians to the East over the years. There are many things that can be done(besides money) to make this a great company to work for, but unfortunately any suggestions aer ignored by the powers that be>
I'm just trying to say that things don't only just happen in JHB and CPT like ATNS seem to think. We have a problem country wide and it should be addressed asap. Of the people that we interviewed in PE two failed because they failed the personality test, but they passed everything else. There are so many a##holes in the company, how do they set a benchmark? What I'm saying is that if the outstations are going to get screwed with the retention - people will leave from there as well. We at PE have also lost many controllers and avionicians to the East over the years. There are many things that can be done(besides money) to make this a great company to work for, but unfortunately any suggestions aer ignored by the powers that be>