Sa Atc- Acc Jhb - Staffing
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RGod,
I am not disagreeing with u at all....I am not against u...in fact I think that the outstations in SA have ALWAYS got the raw deal, and 99% of the reason is that GATSCA is 99% Jhb.....so I am with u...just didn't understand where counts came into it...
So I agree with u, and stand by my reasoning that retention is NOT the answer - coz those that will benefit - are those that don't, or didn't wanna go in the first place.....
......
I am not disagreeing with u at all....I am not against u...in fact I think that the outstations in SA have ALWAYS got the raw deal, and 99% of the reason is that GATSCA is 99% Jhb.....so I am with u...just didn't understand where counts came into it...
So I agree with u, and stand by my reasoning that retention is NOT the answer - coz those that will benefit - are those that don't, or didn't wanna go in the first place.....
......
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I agree with you RGod. I heard you guys are working split shifts because of the shortage. Eina!
The company seems to continue it's knee jerk reaction with the offering of retension packages and never resolves the problems at hand.
I for one am not going to sign anything and I wish I could talk to the rest of the 'greedy' atc's into doing the same. Maybe then we could get management around the table to sort out some long term solutions.
Alas though those not planning on leaving will sign and nothing will be solved.
The company seems to continue it's knee jerk reaction with the offering of retension packages and never resolves the problems at hand.
I for one am not going to sign anything and I wish I could talk to the rest of the 'greedy' atc's into doing the same. Maybe then we could get management around the table to sort out some long term solutions.
Alas though those not planning on leaving will sign and nothing will be solved.
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I aint signing anything either!
And you are so right - one only has to look at the instructors allowance - all the hot air about resigning and not giving instruction because they wont increase the allowance............. wonder when they going to put their feet where their mouths are
And you are so right - one only has to look at the instructors allowance - all the hot air about resigning and not giving instruction because they wont increase the allowance............. wonder when they going to put their feet where their mouths are
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Just a general question? How do you guys/girls feel about ATC's returning from the East(after making lotsa money) with no penalty on their pay scale? To me it is a slap in the face!
Just wondering
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Rgod
That's a catch 22. We need to attract the guys back to help supplement our staffing problems and coming back on only an inflation adjusted salary is not doing the trick. I think it's the right thing to do, then again on the flipside of that coin it is a slap in the face of those that have remained loyal to the company.
If you have a look at say the 5 year pay scale and top pay scale there's only possibly 4 to 5 grand a month net difference. Top scale is still atleast 25% down from what they're earning. So is it working? I think not.
We had two guys return from the M E. One has returned already and the other will be returning this year sometime.
If you have a look at say the 5 year pay scale and top pay scale there's only possibly 4 to 5 grand a month net difference. Top scale is still atleast 25% down from what they're earning. So is it working? I think not.
We had two guys return from the M E. One has returned already and the other will be returning this year sometime.
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Radargod,
That is a very narrow minded way of seeing things. Because a controller goes somewhere else for whatever reason - but gaining vast experience - why should he/she be peanalised? Get some ambition, and if you don't want to - leave the rest alone. Does a charted accountant who gains overseas experience get peanalised because he/she left an employer? NOT
By the way ME is not just a place to make money - its a place to gain experience - in controlling - and in life.
I heard someone like you in PE was shot down by ATNS management too about narow-mindedness......
Hey BO'K - howz the packing coming on?
That is a very narrow minded way of seeing things. Because a controller goes somewhere else for whatever reason - but gaining vast experience - why should he/she be peanalised? Get some ambition, and if you don't want to - leave the rest alone. Does a charted accountant who gains overseas experience get peanalised because he/she left an employer? NOT
By the way ME is not just a place to make money - its a place to gain experience - in controlling - and in life.
I heard someone like you in PE was shot down by ATNS management too about narow-mindedness......
Hey BO'K - howz the packing coming on?
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Nookie, I agree with you. Everyone had the opportunity to go overseas, so why this "punish" chain of thought. Experience in your field gained is experience gained!
This is by far a much scarier thing! More knee jerk reaction and another failure at plugging holes.
Cheers
This is by far a much scarier thing! More knee jerk reaction and another failure at plugging holes.
A can of worms has just been opened...
First off this thread might have to be renamed "The SA ATC salary debate thread"
Secondly. GATCSA - where is this SATC/PATC band hopping written? As i understand it, you say that if I spend 10 years as a SATC in FARB, then course and validate as a FADN approach controller I will slot in at the 10 YEAR PATC band!!!
However if I work FADN tower for 10 years, then course and validate as a FADN PATC then I only fit in on the 1year band.
Am I misunderstanding? The unfair labour practice Law will have to be looked at if that is the case.
This applies to JS tower guys as well. (Waiting to fit into a system that is not well. Never mind those guys that waited for SAAF guys to push in!) So in the end it pays to wait at an outstation.
I hope i'm misunderstanding this, otherwise there will be a lot of unhappy people!
An analogy - You are an intern for 4 years, then qualify as a doctor and straight away move onto the 4 year doctor scale!
If this is the case, why bother having different names for the scales.
First off this thread might have to be renamed "The SA ATC salary debate thread"
Secondly. GATCSA - where is this SATC/PATC band hopping written? As i understand it, you say that if I spend 10 years as a SATC in FARB, then course and validate as a FADN approach controller I will slot in at the 10 YEAR PATC band!!!
However if I work FADN tower for 10 years, then course and validate as a FADN PATC then I only fit in on the 1year band.
Am I misunderstanding? The unfair labour practice Law will have to be looked at if that is the case.
This applies to JS tower guys as well. (Waiting to fit into a system that is not well. Never mind those guys that waited for SAAF guys to push in!) So in the end it pays to wait at an outstation.
I hope i'm misunderstanding this, otherwise there will be a lot of unhappy people!
An analogy - You are an intern for 4 years, then qualify as a doctor and straight away move onto the 4 year doctor scale!
If this is the case, why bother having different names for the scales.
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BOK2GO, the topscale at ATNS is not even 40% of salaries in the ME. ATNS will never lure the people back from the ME with money. They only come back because of personal issues. The wife does not like it, that type of thing or retiring or something in that line. Why would anybody give up the lifestyle and comfort in the sandpit only to come back and work for peanuts. Up the net monthly to R45 000+ and some might consider it.
As for the slap in the face bit. Do I detect a hint of rancour in that statement? Since when is loyalty to a company a prerequisite? We live in a free market world. I buy at Hi-Fi Corp because they are cheaper. I have a skill that somebody else needs. Sold to the highest bidder. You want to use my skill again? Then up the ante. ATNS take resignations way to personal. It is not about them but about I.
BOK2GO, how much would it take to make you stay? (I assume you are leaving/where ya goin'). And be honest. Would a once off retention do the trick or must it be a continuous thing? No crime stories either. Just monetary if you please.
Makeapullup, how many left on the JS ACC roster? Still 4 sectors everyday?
As for the slap in the face bit. Do I detect a hint of rancour in that statement? Since when is loyalty to a company a prerequisite? We live in a free market world. I buy at Hi-Fi Corp because they are cheaper. I have a skill that somebody else needs. Sold to the highest bidder. You want to use my skill again? Then up the ante. ATNS take resignations way to personal. It is not about them but about I.
BOK2GO, how much would it take to make you stay? (I assume you are leaving/where ya goin'). And be honest. Would a once off retention do the trick or must it be a continuous thing? No crime stories either. Just monetary if you please.
Makeapullup, how many left on the JS ACC roster? Still 4 sectors everyday?
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N2N
Have card, will travel. We patiently await the next round with AsA.
BlueSky
Another 10g net a month might tempt me to stay a little longer. We've made up our minds that we're leaving though and nothing really can keep us anymore.
Our board is completely clueless about what a competitive salary is and will just have to learn the hard way.
Have card, will travel. We patiently await the next round with AsA.
BlueSky
Another 10g net a month might tempt me to stay a little longer. We've made up our minds that we're leaving though and nothing really can keep us anymore.
Our board is completely clueless about what a competitive salary is and will just have to learn the hard way.
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This debate has been ongoing for as long as I can remember. Those that can, will leave. Those that can't wont. I wish the best for both parties. Problem remains that those that stay have absolutely no power. They gripe, but do nothing. If you want to see changes, I suggest that you stand together for once and perhaps something might happen.
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Saywhat.....
Exactly - I agree with you 100%
Retention packages might not even keep the ones tempted on leaving. Eg = BOK
and all those in ME, and all those going...
Retention packages will only help those who were never going anywhere anyway.
Exactly - I agree with you 100%
Retention packages might not even keep the ones tempted on leaving. Eg = BOK
and all those in ME, and all those going...
Retention packages will only help those who were never going anywhere anyway.
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N2N
No sir, I ain't signing no lock in retension package, no matter how large it is. What I mean't with my earlier post is that I wouldn't be rushing out of here if we had a significant salary adjustment. I'd be tempted to stick around for maybe another 18 months or so.
Lock in's create animosity and are a clear indication that the employer is not willing to take the steps to keep staff happy on a long term scale. This would be the 3rd retension contract I'd be signing and yet we're still in the same predicament we were in 1997. They don't work. You don't need a BA and a cushy position on a board to see this.
No sir, I ain't signing no lock in retension package, no matter how large it is. What I mean't with my earlier post is that I wouldn't be rushing out of here if we had a significant salary adjustment. I'd be tempted to stick around for maybe another 18 months or so.
Lock in's create animosity and are a clear indication that the employer is not willing to take the steps to keep staff happy on a long term scale. This would be the 3rd retension contract I'd be signing and yet we're still in the same predicament we were in 1997. They don't work. You don't need a BA and a cushy position on a board to see this.
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N2N
Just as people have different reasons for leaving - they have different reasons for staying. Just because I am not leaving(yet!), doesn't mean that I don't have any ambition.
People have different values in life and will make their choices according to that. All I'm saying is that ATNS should rather spend their money on keeping their employees happy than bring back a couple of ATC's from the East. Those that came back didn't have a gun to their head forcing them to accept the 5 year pay scale - they came back because they wanted to. I think one of the biggest problems is recruitment and successfull training of people to help our staff crisis. The ATA is hardly making any money - so why train people from Africa if we can increase the number of South African courses? Send successfull candidates down to our little VFR TWR and let them gain some experience before sending them to the bigger centres. We are the company's biggest assets and they should realize that. They gripe, but do nothing. If you want to see changes, I suggest that you stand together for once and perhaps something might happen.
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We should then stand together if we are not happy with what ATNS has to offer.
Amandla
Just as people have different reasons for leaving - they have different reasons for staying. Just because I am not leaving(yet!), doesn't mean that I don't have any ambition.
People have different values in life and will make their choices according to that. All I'm saying is that ATNS should rather spend their money on keeping their employees happy than bring back a couple of ATC's from the East. Those that came back didn't have a gun to their head forcing them to accept the 5 year pay scale - they came back because they wanted to. I think one of the biggest problems is recruitment and successfull training of people to help our staff crisis. The ATA is hardly making any money - so why train people from Africa if we can increase the number of South African courses? Send successfull candidates down to our little VFR TWR and let them gain some experience before sending them to the bigger centres. We are the company's biggest assets and they should realize that. They gripe, but do nothing. If you want to see changes, I suggest that you stand together for once and perhaps something might happen. saywhatView Public ProfileSend a private message to saywhatFind More Posts by saywhatAdd saywhat to Your Buddy List
We should then stand together if we are not happy with what ATNS has to offer.
Amandla
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Rgod
I'm afraid I have to disagree with you on two points.
1) If the Academy doesn't train Internationals they'll operate at a huge loss. If operations are carrying them it means less money on the bargaining table for our salary increase. They are training our own staff but our pre-selection is less than desirable and the failure rate on Twr course is horrific.
2) We need experienced guys to come back from the ME. If it means offering them top scale then so be it. ATNS will be a much happier place if we had staff to man current and new sectors planned. This will spread the workload and improve working conditions. The reality of it is that they sneeze at our top scale and a large general increase is going to be needed to get them back. When the board realises this it'll be a win win situation for all.
I'm afraid I have to disagree with you on two points.
1) If the Academy doesn't train Internationals they'll operate at a huge loss. If operations are carrying them it means less money on the bargaining table for our salary increase. They are training our own staff but our pre-selection is less than desirable and the failure rate on Twr course is horrific.
2) We need experienced guys to come back from the ME. If it means offering them top scale then so be it. ATNS will be a much happier place if we had staff to man current and new sectors planned. This will spread the workload and improve working conditions. The reality of it is that they sneeze at our top scale and a large general increase is going to be needed to get them back. When the board realises this it'll be a win win situation for all.
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Rgod...Rgod....
Thank you BOK - you have the bigger picture.......could u draw it for Rgod
RGod...its not about how long and how loyal - with ANY company - or ANY profession - yeah u get the 30 year gold watch - so what? If u decide (or not) to explore and experience different things - its ur porogative - but don't shoot down the boys/gals that do. I know of 2 SA ME ATCs that have returned went back to ATNS - and are now back in ME - and I know of more that have returned to SA that would still like to go back to ME....don't u?
..........bottom line what I keep trying to say to you Rgod - open ur eyes and look past ur nose.....
PS How many of those exME ATC are still there on a 5 yr scale?
I do agree with you that things could be done differently within the company wrt training.....trial and error....whats the right way? Nobaody has got it right....
By the way - you got a gun to your head keeping you there with that salary???????????
RGod...its not about how long and how loyal - with ANY company - or ANY profession - yeah u get the 30 year gold watch - so what? If u decide (or not) to explore and experience different things - its ur porogative - but don't shoot down the boys/gals that do. I know of 2 SA ME ATCs that have returned went back to ATNS - and are now back in ME - and I know of more that have returned to SA that would still like to go back to ME....don't u?
..........bottom line what I keep trying to say to you Rgod - open ur eyes and look past ur nose.....
PS How many of those exME ATC are still there on a 5 yr scale?
I do agree with you that things could be done differently within the company wrt training.....trial and error....whats the right way? Nobaody has got it right....
By the way - you got a gun to your head keeping you there with that salary???????????
Last edited by Nookie2nite; 9th Jan 2007 at 06:08.
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Rgod
Also look at it from this perspective. If you choose to go do a tour of duty in the ME to earn some serious money you know you can return without harming your pay scale this side. It's almost incentive enough to go.
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N2N
I hear what you are saying and I agree that it is your choice to stay or go. So far I choose to stay and will review my choice after the retention offer. There is no point in getting upset cause I don't see it your way - each one is entitled to his/her own opinion. You might not agree, but to me loyalty is important. One of the pilots at LNK said that their is no ways that you return on the same salary scale once you have left LNK. I am sure that there are more companies like that. I am only saying that ATNS should spend all their time/energy/resources on keeping their staff happy.
Rgod
I hear what you are saying and I agree that it is your choice to stay or go. So far I choose to stay and will review my choice after the retention offer. There is no point in getting upset cause I don't see it your way - each one is entitled to his/her own opinion. You might not agree, but to me loyalty is important. One of the pilots at LNK said that their is no ways that you return on the same salary scale once you have left LNK. I am sure that there are more companies like that. I am only saying that ATNS should spend all their time/energy/resources on keeping their staff happy.
Rgod
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Loyalty these days is a convenience it doesn't pay. It's much easier to not have to pack up your things and take the risk, than to stay get paid a pitance and call it loyalty. How many ceo's and md's have been in charge since you've been here- were they loyal or did they follow the biggest pay check and when they left did the next company pay them less because they weren't 'loyal'.
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RGOD
It takes about 1.7 mil to train an atc from scratch and a lot of time. Bringing back atc's on correct scale is far more cost effective. Again, more money to sort the rest of the atc's out.
Them coming back on corrected scales is not affecting your salary. Infact it's saving the company money. So what exactly is your gripe?
Them coming back on corrected scales is not affecting your salary. Infact it's saving the company money. So what exactly is your gripe?