Pilots reporting speed control
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Nogbad, I think you are confusing me with someone else. I haven't done a search, however, so perhaps you could point me at the thread you refer to?
Readbacks:-
Once again, mistakes get made. That's why we read things back to you. You check it, and correct it if necessary. Take the second part of that away, and there's not much point in us reading it back, is there? If someone were accidentally to thumb the PTT as you are TXing your instructions to us, partially blocking out one word, and we think we heard FL310 when you said FL210, we read back FL310. You didn't hear the crossed transmission. You don't check the readback. Who is then to blame for the level bust?
Yes, ATC instructions INSIDE CONTROLLED AIRSPACE are mandatory. UNLESS there is a reason why the aircraft is unable to comply, or doesn't hear them, or safety dictates another course of action, or blah blah blah... I say again, we are not there just to do your bidding. If I have rapid decompression and need urgently to descend below FL100 and you tell me to maintain for the next 5 miles, my reply to you will be "NUTS".
I never said, or implied, that ATC instructions are given to us "for the hell of it." Such an idea is total nonsense, and treats professional pilots as if they were children. Similarly, to say "Please report everything you're asked too." That is also treating pilots like children. Can you imagine how that rattles cages? Can you now understand the vehemance of my post?
Readbacks:-
Once again, mistakes get made. That's why we read things back to you. You check it, and correct it if necessary. Take the second part of that away, and there's not much point in us reading it back, is there? If someone were accidentally to thumb the PTT as you are TXing your instructions to us, partially blocking out one word, and we think we heard FL310 when you said FL210, we read back FL310. You didn't hear the crossed transmission. You don't check the readback. Who is then to blame for the level bust?
Yes, ATC instructions INSIDE CONTROLLED AIRSPACE are mandatory. UNLESS there is a reason why the aircraft is unable to comply, or doesn't hear them, or safety dictates another course of action, or blah blah blah... I say again, we are not there just to do your bidding. If I have rapid decompression and need urgently to descend below FL100 and you tell me to maintain for the next 5 miles, my reply to you will be "NUTS".
I never said, or implied, that ATC instructions are given to us "for the hell of it." Such an idea is total nonsense, and treats professional pilots as if they were children. Similarly, to say "Please report everything you're asked too." That is also treating pilots like children. Can you imagine how that rattles cages? Can you now understand the vehemance of my post?
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Hugmaster
Where was the word "ordered" mentioned in my post, I think a "request" is slightly different to an "order" see Oxford English Dictionary.Do you fly an AWACS? as it would appear that you know where all the 10 -20 acft on my radar screen are, as you are so confident to determine which ATC REQUEST is relevant or not.You may even query the the phrase AVOIDING ACTION as any other REQUEST was not determined relevant by you
Where was the word "ordered" mentioned in my post, I think a "request" is slightly different to an "order" see Oxford English Dictionary.Do you fly an AWACS? as it would appear that you know where all the 10 -20 acft on my radar screen are, as you are so confident to determine which ATC REQUEST is relevant or not.You may even query the the phrase AVOIDING ACTION as any other REQUEST was not determined relevant by you
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McKenzie, that's three posts from you on this thread - none of them of any use whatsoever but to titillate your idea of how wonderful and funny you are. Rather sounds like masturbation to me. Now can you come up with anything that helps the discussion or not?
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Hugmaster
Where do you come from? If you said you had a decompression and wanted an emergency descent, the waves would be parted below you and all acft in the way, who would do as they where REQUESTED would be cleared out of your way.You would not be told to "maintain for the next 5 miles".
Where do you come from? If you said you had a decompression and wanted an emergency descent, the waves would be parted below you and all acft in the way, who would do as they where REQUESTED would be cleared out of your way.You would not be told to "maintain for the next 5 miles".
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j17, your last post is a masterpiece of irrelevant idiocies.
It wasn't - nor did I use it. You do, though, use "told to" and "requested to" as if they were synonyms.
As for the rest of it, you seem so confident that you know everything that is going on in the sky. I didn't say, nor would I say, that I decide which ATC requests are "relevant" or not. Nor have I ever, nor would I ever query the phrase "AVOIDING ACTION". You don't have the faintest idea about anything going on unless it is squawking or actually transmitted. And that, as people with slightly more imagination and common sense than you (which is, let's face it, not very difficult), will realise is rather a lot.
PS Okay, perhaps decompression was a bad example. How about "right twenty for weather avoidance" instead? You are probably one of the (thankfully) few who immediately assume that this is just a pilot trying to get a sneakily direct routing. You can't see the weather on your radar. We can. So if I'm about to go through the middle of a CB if I follow your instructions, I will ignore your "requests".
[ 15 November 2001: Message edited by: HugMonster ]
Where was the word "ordered" mentioned in my post,
As for the rest of it, you seem so confident that you know everything that is going on in the sky. I didn't say, nor would I say, that I decide which ATC requests are "relevant" or not. Nor have I ever, nor would I ever query the phrase "AVOIDING ACTION". You don't have the faintest idea about anything going on unless it is squawking or actually transmitted. And that, as people with slightly more imagination and common sense than you (which is, let's face it, not very difficult), will realise is rather a lot.
PS Okay, perhaps decompression was a bad example. How about "right twenty for weather avoidance" instead? You are probably one of the (thankfully) few who immediately assume that this is just a pilot trying to get a sneakily direct routing. You can't see the weather on your radar. We can. So if I'm about to go through the middle of a CB if I follow your instructions, I will ignore your "requests".
[ 15 November 2001: Message edited by: HugMonster ]
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Ok, Mr.Monster, here you go:
I could quote your whole initial post, to show the utter arrogance in it, but I can't be bothered. Maybe you read it again yourself.
Anyway, you claim that our main focus is to communicate with pilots. Wrong! This is just the end result of a process, which involves analysing a problem or situation, finding a solution, coordinating with other sectors via intercom or telephone, modifying a flight plan, writing on strips, scanning the radar screen, shaking alternative solutions out of our sleeve, if for some reason a pilot is unable to comply with a clearance (which is fair enough, BTW), either due wx, acft performance or whatever, and then finally, we issue the clearance.
And we do this constantly, often under severe pressure (I don't mean to boast!). Therefore it is of highest importance, that instructions are being followed, not for the sake of it, and not because we think pilots should be treated like children (total bollocks!), but for the sake of safety and expeditiousness. Just remember, ATCOs have the big picture, not because they're wonderful, but because they have the overall view of what else is happening around you.
Asda's initial post was a fair request open for discussion on a reasonable level with a professional attitude. What did he get as a response? As I said, read your initial post again! A decent request deserves a decent response!
And finally, I'm fully aware that my previous posts on this thread where anything but constructive, but you see, if someone's too arrogant, I tend to take the Mickey out of them.
[ 15 November 2001: Message edited by: Spuds McKenzie ]
I could quote your whole initial post, to show the utter arrogance in it, but I can't be bothered. Maybe you read it again yourself.
Anyway, you claim that our main focus is to communicate with pilots. Wrong! This is just the end result of a process, which involves analysing a problem or situation, finding a solution, coordinating with other sectors via intercom or telephone, modifying a flight plan, writing on strips, scanning the radar screen, shaking alternative solutions out of our sleeve, if for some reason a pilot is unable to comply with a clearance (which is fair enough, BTW), either due wx, acft performance or whatever, and then finally, we issue the clearance.
And we do this constantly, often under severe pressure (I don't mean to boast!). Therefore it is of highest importance, that instructions are being followed, not for the sake of it, and not because we think pilots should be treated like children (total bollocks!), but for the sake of safety and expeditiousness. Just remember, ATCOs have the big picture, not because they're wonderful, but because they have the overall view of what else is happening around you.
Asda's initial post was a fair request open for discussion on a reasonable level with a professional attitude. What did he get as a response? As I said, read your initial post again! A decent request deserves a decent response!
And finally, I'm fully aware that my previous posts on this thread where anything but constructive, but you see, if someone's too arrogant, I tend to take the Mickey out of them.
[ 15 November 2001: Message edited by: Spuds McKenzie ]
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Thanks for a much more constructive post, McKenzie.
Naturally, there is a lot more to your job than talking to us. What I was trying to point out is the difference in emphasis of your job and mine. If you have no aircraft to talk to, you don't have much to do. If we're not talking to ATC (outside CAS or out of R/T coverage, for example) we're still doing much the same as we were doing before.
Furhermore, I did not state that giving aircraft instructions is treating them like children. I said that telling them to carry out those instructions is treating them like children.
All I have tried to do throughout this thread is point out the erroneous assumption behind several posts here (and elsewhere in this Forum) that if a pilot fails to comply with ATC instructions he is lazy, or ignorant, or "not listening" or incompetent, that ATC are universally wonderful, know everything about you and what you are doing, know automatically what is in your best interests, and that if a pilot fails to carry out your "requests" he is therefore, without exception, endangering himself, other aircraft around him, has careless regard for your stress level and likelihood of a heart attack.
We make mistakes. (We try not to). We work in what is often a noisy environment, and if we miss a word or two, or an entire transmission, it is not necessarily our fault. You have the luxury of a desk in front of you. Non-sidestick drivers don't. The handling pilot may be the only one listening out at any given stage of the flight. He doesn't normally have a piece of paper in front of him to write instructions down. So sometimes things get forgotten.
My exasperation in the first post (and one or two later ones) results from being fed up to the gills with ATC demonising pilots, and not appreciating that we are as human as you guys are, and with the assumption that it's always the pilots who let the side down.
You will simply have to accept that sometimes we have our heads totally full with trying to keep all our beans in a row, and we can keep four balls successfully juggling. If a fifth gets missed, then it happens occasionally. Tough. Get used to it.
Naturally, there is a lot more to your job than talking to us. What I was trying to point out is the difference in emphasis of your job and mine. If you have no aircraft to talk to, you don't have much to do. If we're not talking to ATC (outside CAS or out of R/T coverage, for example) we're still doing much the same as we were doing before.
Furhermore, I did not state that giving aircraft instructions is treating them like children. I said that telling them to carry out those instructions is treating them like children.
All I have tried to do throughout this thread is point out the erroneous assumption behind several posts here (and elsewhere in this Forum) that if a pilot fails to comply with ATC instructions he is lazy, or ignorant, or "not listening" or incompetent, that ATC are universally wonderful, know everything about you and what you are doing, know automatically what is in your best interests, and that if a pilot fails to carry out your "requests" he is therefore, without exception, endangering himself, other aircraft around him, has careless regard for your stress level and likelihood of a heart attack.
We make mistakes. (We try not to). We work in what is often a noisy environment, and if we miss a word or two, or an entire transmission, it is not necessarily our fault. You have the luxury of a desk in front of you. Non-sidestick drivers don't. The handling pilot may be the only one listening out at any given stage of the flight. He doesn't normally have a piece of paper in front of him to write instructions down. So sometimes things get forgotten.
My exasperation in the first post (and one or two later ones) results from being fed up to the gills with ATC demonising pilots, and not appreciating that we are as human as you guys are, and with the assumption that it's always the pilots who let the side down.
You will simply have to accept that sometimes we have our heads totally full with trying to keep all our beans in a row, and we can keep four balls successfully juggling. If a fifth gets missed, then it happens occasionally. Tough. Get used to it.
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1) I did not use the word "ordered". I used the word "orders".
2) If you know any reputable doctor, ask him if masturbation makes you go blind. He will tell you that it doesn't.
3) Even if it did, there are more ways than one of going blind. Diabetes will often do that, for example. Therefore, your logic is totally non-existent. You might as well say point at my red shirt and say "Cars are red - therefore you're wearing a car."
Come back when you're capable of arguing a point rationally.
2) If you know any reputable doctor, ask him if masturbation makes you go blind. He will tell you that it doesn't.
3) Even if it did, there are more ways than one of going blind. Diabetes will often do that, for example. Therefore, your logic is totally non-existent. You might as well say point at my red shirt and say "Cars are red - therefore you're wearing a car."
Come back when you're capable of arguing a point rationally.
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On the issue of jump seat rides. I recently did my base check/IR renewal, and had a guy from LATCC observing. I was given the impression that there is an open ended invitation for others to do the same. I can understand those of you who couldn't be bothered to do this in your spare time but it is more interesting than a two sector normal day.
I for one have a great respect for all you guys/girls as London humbles me every day. I often comment about and get agreement on the fact that we don't know how London and Heathrow ATC manage and are so bl@@dy good at their jobs. This I can only presume would be the same way most of you guys would react given such high traffic loads.
I know that I can be accused of not passing on speeds sometimes in the past and I will say sorry for that now, but I can't promise it won't happen again. The reasons have been pointed out by Huggie. However The point has been noted!
Regards le loup garou
Message edited for spelling and stupidity!
[ 15 November 2001: Message edited by: le loup garou ]
I for one have a great respect for all you guys/girls as London humbles me every day. I often comment about and get agreement on the fact that we don't know how London and Heathrow ATC manage and are so bl@@dy good at their jobs. This I can only presume would be the same way most of you guys would react given such high traffic loads.
I know that I can be accused of not passing on speeds sometimes in the past and I will say sorry for that now, but I can't promise it won't happen again. The reasons have been pointed out by Huggie. However The point has been noted!
Regards le loup garou
Message edited for spelling and stupidity!
[ 15 November 2001: Message edited by: le loup garou ]
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"Forgive me huggy, for i fail to understand"
the complete and utter vehemence in your initial,and susequent, postings.
The initial post, as i understand, was a reminder/request to pilots that there are times when atc instructions have not been complied with and maybe a little more care/concentration etc is, on occaisions, needed.
The fact that you, as a proffesional pilot, got your @rse in your hand and threw all your toys out of the cot scares me immensly. The reply i expected from pilots was along the lines of Le Loup Garou (my hat off to you Sir) ie- We as pilots understand that mistakes are being made and will endevour to correct them in future.
A pilot that throws a wobbly when errors are pointed to him is a danger to all who fly.
Having recently seen the report of the investigation of an incident i was involved in, i have sat down and accepted the conclusions and improved many aspects of my work so that similar errors do not happen again - The next life that i DON'T end may well be yours Huggy!
The concept of teamwork has been mentioned by others already and surely one of the most important factors in both our jobs is the
Knoweledge of-
Acceptance of-
Understanding of-
EVERYONES errors, and ALL of us endeavouring to eliminate these errors, albeit within the restraints of human abilities.
Now, Huggy, do i get an acceptance of these facts or are you going to kick your tonka toys again?!!
Why is it that a Controller can handle multiple aircraft, but Pilots need TWO of them to handle ONE!!!!!!!!
the complete and utter vehemence in your initial,and susequent, postings.
The initial post, as i understand, was a reminder/request to pilots that there are times when atc instructions have not been complied with and maybe a little more care/concentration etc is, on occaisions, needed.
The fact that you, as a proffesional pilot, got your @rse in your hand and threw all your toys out of the cot scares me immensly. The reply i expected from pilots was along the lines of Le Loup Garou (my hat off to you Sir) ie- We as pilots understand that mistakes are being made and will endevour to correct them in future.
A pilot that throws a wobbly when errors are pointed to him is a danger to all who fly.
Having recently seen the report of the investigation of an incident i was involved in, i have sat down and accepted the conclusions and improved many aspects of my work so that similar errors do not happen again - The next life that i DON'T end may well be yours Huggy!
The concept of teamwork has been mentioned by others already and surely one of the most important factors in both our jobs is the
Knoweledge of-
Acceptance of-
Understanding of-
EVERYONES errors, and ALL of us endeavouring to eliminate these errors, albeit within the restraints of human abilities.
Now, Huggy, do i get an acceptance of these facts or are you going to kick your tonka toys again?!!
Why is it that a Controller can handle multiple aircraft, but Pilots need TWO of them to handle ONE!!!!!!!!
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Vectors, how many times do I have to say it?
Pilots make mistakes. We try not to. We can't guarantee that we won't make mistakes in the future.
Would you care to go back over the thread and count the number of times I've said that? Or the number of times I've said that we are supposed to be on the same team?
You're the first ATCO I've noticed on this thread admitting that ATC are capable of making mistakes.
Otherwise all I've seen is ATCOs accusing pilots of, effectively, being lazy, unco-operative, unprofessional, whatever you want to call it, and deliberately ignoring ATC "requests".
Yes, I'm a pilot. No, gul dukat, that does not make me one of the "master race", as I believe you put it. It does, however, make me the person responsible for the safe conclusion of the flight. If you make a mistake, I may die. If I make a mistake, I may die. And since my life, not yours, is on the line, I will not carry out ATC instructions without thinking about them. The occasions on which I will not follow ATC instructions will be very few indeed, and if I choose not to follow them by deliberate policy on my part, I will tell you so, and I will tell you the reasons why not.
And when I make mistakes, I will apologise for them, and try to file them away for later reference under the heading "Don't Do This Again".
You want more? Tough.
Pilots make mistakes. We try not to. We can't guarantee that we won't make mistakes in the future.
Would you care to go back over the thread and count the number of times I've said that? Or the number of times I've said that we are supposed to be on the same team?
You're the first ATCO I've noticed on this thread admitting that ATC are capable of making mistakes.
Otherwise all I've seen is ATCOs accusing pilots of, effectively, being lazy, unco-operative, unprofessional, whatever you want to call it, and deliberately ignoring ATC "requests".
Yes, I'm a pilot. No, gul dukat, that does not make me one of the "master race", as I believe you put it. It does, however, make me the person responsible for the safe conclusion of the flight. If you make a mistake, I may die. If I make a mistake, I may die. And since my life, not yours, is on the line, I will not carry out ATC instructions without thinking about them. The occasions on which I will not follow ATC instructions will be very few indeed, and if I choose not to follow them by deliberate policy on my part, I will tell you so, and I will tell you the reasons why not.
And when I make mistakes, I will apologise for them, and try to file them away for later reference under the heading "Don't Do This Again".
You want more? Tough.
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Well, well, well, what a response to a perfectly normal request!! What a lot of tosh being written by some people. Whilst I might be setting myself up for a barrage from Hug Monster, I rather feel that his initial response was way over the top. Relevant points are:
1) We are all a team
2) We are all busy
3) We are all trying to keep planes apart from each other.
However, as ATCOs we are not psychic, and we do not know what you are supposed to be doing unless you tell us. If a previous controller has put you on a speed control for separation purposes, then it is not something which really should get forgotten. (For the benefit of our colleague from UAE, it is considered coordination if a pilot is requested to report any restrictions to the next controller. Funnily enough, we do not always have time to phone everything through!) To 'forget' it in a busy environment is like 'forgetting' to level off at your cleared level, and has the same impact upon safety. What does worry me though, HM, is that you seem to be suggesting that pilots (of which I am also one) are incapable of remembering an instruction they were given not 30 secs ago. Also, there are TWO of you up there and only ONE of us down here.
Whetever, as a training captain I would hope your attitude on the flight deck towards things that bug you is better than the one you displayed in this thread. Otherwise I wonder how your poor victims (sorry, colleagues) feel about flying with you.
This thread started as a simple reminder that these separation-ensuring instructions are not given for the fun of it, and should perhaps come higher up your list of priorities than they seem to. Seems quite reasonable to me. By the way, our priorities are Separate, Order and Expedite (to paraphrase MATS). Perhaps you understand now why it is such an important issue to us.
Tin hat now going on.
1) We are all a team
2) We are all busy
3) We are all trying to keep planes apart from each other.
However, as ATCOs we are not psychic, and we do not know what you are supposed to be doing unless you tell us. If a previous controller has put you on a speed control for separation purposes, then it is not something which really should get forgotten. (For the benefit of our colleague from UAE, it is considered coordination if a pilot is requested to report any restrictions to the next controller. Funnily enough, we do not always have time to phone everything through!) To 'forget' it in a busy environment is like 'forgetting' to level off at your cleared level, and has the same impact upon safety. What does worry me though, HM, is that you seem to be suggesting that pilots (of which I am also one) are incapable of remembering an instruction they were given not 30 secs ago. Also, there are TWO of you up there and only ONE of us down here.
Whetever, as a training captain I would hope your attitude on the flight deck towards things that bug you is better than the one you displayed in this thread. Otherwise I wonder how your poor victims (sorry, colleagues) feel about flying with you.
This thread started as a simple reminder that these separation-ensuring instructions are not given for the fun of it, and should perhaps come higher up your list of priorities than they seem to. Seems quite reasonable to me. By the way, our priorities are Separate, Order and Expedite (to paraphrase MATS). Perhaps you understand now why it is such an important issue to us.
Tin hat now going on.
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eyeinthesky, in general I agree with much of your post.
I hope by now that people understand why my first reply in this thread was so vehement - largely because, as professionals who (almost universally) take a pride in the way they do their work, object to being told things like "You must follow ATC instructions". If, however, I was OTT, I apologise.
A couple of points on your post, eye.
No, forgetting something is not like forgetting to level off at cleared altitude. The vast majority of modern aircraft nowadays have flight directors which will command the level-off at the cleared altitude. This system will fail for a variety of possible reasons - e.g., the altitude was mis-set, or was mis-heard, or QNH or 1013 was not set, etc. etc. In a fairly long aviation career, quite a significant bit of it as Flight Safety Officer for a couple of organisations, I have never heard of a level bust resulting from forgetting to level off.
Next, I have never said that pilots are incapable of remembering an instruction for 30 seconds. I said that pilots (and everyone else) are capable of forgetting something told them 30 seconds ago. There is rather a big difference. And at a busy phase of flight, when you may be slowing down, configuring the aircraft, possibly rebriefing the approach, waiting for the cabin secure signal, talking to handling agents because of a late request for a wheelchair, checking the new ATIS because it's just changed, sometimes we forget things. Yes, there are two of us up there. But quite often only one is listening to you.
Yes, I appreciate that this is an important question for you. I have never said it wasn't, or that it was anything but important to any pilot who takes his job seriously and takes a pride in it.
But, occasionally, sh!t happens. And when it does, it's no good complaining about lazy pilots, or deaf pilots, or talking to them as if they were children who don't understand how hard-working, stressed, heroic ATCOs are working their butts off for a bunch of ingrates who don't appreciate them.
I know how hard you guys work. I've seen it. (I've even tried it - thanks, MAN). I don't know how you do it. But don't for one moment imagine that we sit up there all the time with our feet up waiting for the next cup of coffee saying to ourselves "ATC want what? S*d 'em. I can't be bothered."
As I've said time and again, we're all on the same team. Take the time to appreciate what goes on the other side of the ether. Do you know, I've never once had an ATCO in the jump seat?
I hope by now that people understand why my first reply in this thread was so vehement - largely because, as professionals who (almost universally) take a pride in the way they do their work, object to being told things like "You must follow ATC instructions". If, however, I was OTT, I apologise.
A couple of points on your post, eye.
No, forgetting something is not like forgetting to level off at cleared altitude. The vast majority of modern aircraft nowadays have flight directors which will command the level-off at the cleared altitude. This system will fail for a variety of possible reasons - e.g., the altitude was mis-set, or was mis-heard, or QNH or 1013 was not set, etc. etc. In a fairly long aviation career, quite a significant bit of it as Flight Safety Officer for a couple of organisations, I have never heard of a level bust resulting from forgetting to level off.
Next, I have never said that pilots are incapable of remembering an instruction for 30 seconds. I said that pilots (and everyone else) are capable of forgetting something told them 30 seconds ago. There is rather a big difference. And at a busy phase of flight, when you may be slowing down, configuring the aircraft, possibly rebriefing the approach, waiting for the cabin secure signal, talking to handling agents because of a late request for a wheelchair, checking the new ATIS because it's just changed, sometimes we forget things. Yes, there are two of us up there. But quite often only one is listening to you.
Yes, I appreciate that this is an important question for you. I have never said it wasn't, or that it was anything but important to any pilot who takes his job seriously and takes a pride in it.
But, occasionally, sh!t happens. And when it does, it's no good complaining about lazy pilots, or deaf pilots, or talking to them as if they were children who don't understand how hard-working, stressed, heroic ATCOs are working their butts off for a bunch of ingrates who don't appreciate them.
I know how hard you guys work. I've seen it. (I've even tried it - thanks, MAN). I don't know how you do it. But don't for one moment imagine that we sit up there all the time with our feet up waiting for the next cup of coffee saying to ourselves "ATC want what? S*d 'em. I can't be bothered."
As I've said time and again, we're all on the same team. Take the time to appreciate what goes on the other side of the ether. Do you know, I've never once had an ATCO in the jump seat?
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Hug, i'm still at a loss to understand your somewhat venomous posts. Your various replies of "no, shan't, get used to it, tough" indicate either a failure to comprehend the problem at hand or a personal dislike of atc.
Asda's initial post ended "Please report everything you are asked to", this is not treating pilots as children (tho' you wouldn't believe how many times many of us have to!!) but a simple request. You and others have stated that we don't always know what goes on up there and you are right; we don't know what buttons/knobs you're pressing, what you're thinking or your mindset etc. and here's where a little knoweledge can be dangerous: we don't know if a pilot has simply forgotten to follow the instruction, or, thinking the controllers are adjacent to each other, feels he doesn't need to follow the instruction coz the controllers talk to each other and anyway its written on the strip isn't it? Now do you see why Asda's request/reminder was not a dig at pilots abilities (if you want to go down that road just mention slots, that'll get me started!!) but an indication that there may be the root of a dangerous problem which we can all, together, eliminate? From my personal experience the need to give pilots such instructions is growing, as is, for whatever reason, the frequency of omissions by pilots.
Your other point "don't expect us to follow your orders" is also worrying. We HAVE to assume that you will follow atc instructions otherwise no-one would get anywhere. There is a fine line between folowing atc instructions unless absolutely necessary and treating them as requests if and when you've got the time (i've got the 1261 to prove that at least one pilot has done this)- the vitriol in some of you posts tends to show that you'd prefer the latter - however hopefully i have read you wrong and offer my apologies.
Yes pilots do p1ss me on occasion with their apparent incompetence and i have no doubt there are pilots whom i've p1ssed off with mine, but surely we can use this forum to remind, help and educate each other with the aim of improving safety?
Enjoy, and be safe.
Asda's initial post ended "Please report everything you are asked to", this is not treating pilots as children (tho' you wouldn't believe how many times many of us have to!!) but a simple request. You and others have stated that we don't always know what goes on up there and you are right; we don't know what buttons/knobs you're pressing, what you're thinking or your mindset etc. and here's where a little knoweledge can be dangerous: we don't know if a pilot has simply forgotten to follow the instruction, or, thinking the controllers are adjacent to each other, feels he doesn't need to follow the instruction coz the controllers talk to each other and anyway its written on the strip isn't it? Now do you see why Asda's request/reminder was not a dig at pilots abilities (if you want to go down that road just mention slots, that'll get me started!!) but an indication that there may be the root of a dangerous problem which we can all, together, eliminate? From my personal experience the need to give pilots such instructions is growing, as is, for whatever reason, the frequency of omissions by pilots.
Your other point "don't expect us to follow your orders" is also worrying. We HAVE to assume that you will follow atc instructions otherwise no-one would get anywhere. There is a fine line between folowing atc instructions unless absolutely necessary and treating them as requests if and when you've got the time (i've got the 1261 to prove that at least one pilot has done this)- the vitriol in some of you posts tends to show that you'd prefer the latter - however hopefully i have read you wrong and offer my apologies.
Yes pilots do p1ss me on occasion with their apparent incompetence and i have no doubt there are pilots whom i've p1ssed off with mine, but surely we can use this forum to remind, help and educate each other with the aim of improving safety?
Enjoy, and be safe.
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Vectors, it worries me that your post says that you still have to treat pilots as if they were children. I am concerned about what that says about firstly, your attitude to pilots, and secondly about why you feel this need. There is ample provision through NATS and CAA SRG to reports shortfalls in performance. If increasing numbers of pilots are failing to report headings or speed restrictions or other details when requested, then this is worrying, and should be addressed through the regulatory and safety bodies.
The other aspect of treating pilots that way is that it is using a poor attitude as a weapon. If a pilot were to treat a controller that way, I bet the result would be a little rerouting and extended spell in the hold!
By the way, to whomever it was who asked whether I flew an AWACS - no, I don't, but remember that we have TCAS. We can therefore see everything around us out to twelve miles that's squawking. We can also see when we're being vectored miles out of our way so that a based aircraft can be first on the ILS.
What about slots?
I also said that when I deliberately do not follow ATC instructions, I will tell you, and tell you the reason. Anyone who doesn't do so deserves to be hung up by the toenails, or at least have a helping of tea and biccies with the Fleet Manager.
And finally, your point about apparent incompetence of pilots. Some PPLs (and some, but thankfully fewer CPL/ATPLs) are incompetent. I know of one or two incompetent controllers, as well. Can you imagine the frustration when you're away from the gate, through no fault of your own, significantly late, and are trying as hard as you can to make up the delay, you call "Approaching the hold, ready immediate", then are told "Hold position, landing traffic" and realise that the "landing traffic" is a PA28 at five miles? By no means an uncommon situation.
On the same theme, I appreciate also the frustration a controller experiences when trying to clear a backlog, has negotiated with RDR a gap to squeeze two away and the one in front that said he was "ready immediate" then sits on the threshold for three minutes while he looks for his sunglasses....
But we're none of us perfect. As I've said time and again.
Have any controllers who, like Asda and Vectors, seen an increase in failure to report details as requested, taken it up through normal channels? Yes, this forum is useful, but official it ain't.
The other aspect of treating pilots that way is that it is using a poor attitude as a weapon. If a pilot were to treat a controller that way, I bet the result would be a little rerouting and extended spell in the hold!
By the way, to whomever it was who asked whether I flew an AWACS - no, I don't, but remember that we have TCAS. We can therefore see everything around us out to twelve miles that's squawking. We can also see when we're being vectored miles out of our way so that a based aircraft can be first on the ILS.
What about slots?
I also said that when I deliberately do not follow ATC instructions, I will tell you, and tell you the reason. Anyone who doesn't do so deserves to be hung up by the toenails, or at least have a helping of tea and biccies with the Fleet Manager.
And finally, your point about apparent incompetence of pilots. Some PPLs (and some, but thankfully fewer CPL/ATPLs) are incompetent. I know of one or two incompetent controllers, as well. Can you imagine the frustration when you're away from the gate, through no fault of your own, significantly late, and are trying as hard as you can to make up the delay, you call "Approaching the hold, ready immediate", then are told "Hold position, landing traffic" and realise that the "landing traffic" is a PA28 at five miles? By no means an uncommon situation.
On the same theme, I appreciate also the frustration a controller experiences when trying to clear a backlog, has negotiated with RDR a gap to squeeze two away and the one in front that said he was "ready immediate" then sits on the threshold for three minutes while he looks for his sunglasses....
But we're none of us perfect. As I've said time and again.
Have any controllers who, like Asda and Vectors, seen an increase in failure to report details as requested, taken it up through normal channels? Yes, this forum is useful, but official it ain't.
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I have just read ASDA's initial post again.
It read ( unintentionally I'm sure ) slightly of arrogance and certainly of poor understanding of busy cockpit.I am not saying we are always busy because we are not but for example it is amazing how often CCMs manage to interrupt a radio transmission. We should ask for a repeat but sometimes fail to.
Despite this I think Hmonster is a tad OTT. I don't think it was the slight on our profession his responses suggest. This forum, indeed thread is about greater understanding and this clearly has mutual benefits. We should all be big enough to admit we don't know it all and don't always get it right ( never in my case ).
I don't think this 'us and them' attitude helps anyone and ATC are as guilty as pilots in that area.
P.S. Keep up the good work or my life assurance company will come looking for you!!
[ 17 November 2001: Message edited by: westman ]
It read ( unintentionally I'm sure ) slightly of arrogance and certainly of poor understanding of busy cockpit.I am not saying we are always busy because we are not but for example it is amazing how often CCMs manage to interrupt a radio transmission. We should ask for a repeat but sometimes fail to.
Despite this I think Hmonster is a tad OTT. I don't think it was the slight on our profession his responses suggest. This forum, indeed thread is about greater understanding and this clearly has mutual benefits. We should all be big enough to admit we don't know it all and don't always get it right ( never in my case ).
I don't think this 'us and them' attitude helps anyone and ATC are as guilty as pilots in that area.
P.S. Keep up the good work or my life assurance company will come looking for you!!
[ 17 November 2001: Message edited by: westman ]
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Another one for your list Hugmonster
8. when receiving a radar control service, do as you are told.
These instructions are mandatory not optional, and if this upsets you or hurts your ego either...
A)find another job, (perhaps you're not suited to the present one, so much anger in one so young) or
B)get used to it.
8. when receiving a radar control service, do as you are told.
These instructions are mandatory not optional, and if this upsets you or hurts your ego either...
A)find another job, (perhaps you're not suited to the present one, so much anger in one so young) or
B)get used to it.
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HM: Thanks for your reasoned reply. To go into it further would only be discussing semantics.
Very interesting that you say you've never had an ATCO on the jumpseat. Aside from the smirk at the double entendre, I would suggest that this might have something to do with the difficulty I at least have encountered in getting on board on a fam flight: First I have to get past Jobsworth No.1 at Check-In who insists I, with my stand-by ticket, can't go through until all firm passengers have checked in and there is a seat for me, despite assurances that I will be using the seat behind the newly armoured door. Having negotiated that, I then have to persuade Jobsworth No.2 at the gate to talk to Jobsworth No.3 (Despatcher) to go and talk to the Purser to talk to the Captain to see whether I can come aboard. The Captain knows nothing about me and is quite likely to refuse, or maybe say check again when we're in the cruise. The majority of the value in terms of seeing the preflight briefings and preparation are lost, and it is in danger of becoming no more than a jolly to sunny climes with a good view out of the window. (Nothing wrong with that in itself, but hardly what is intended). If you come to LATCC, you will be met at the gate, escorted round, probably given lunch, and maybe chance to plug in on a sector or even a go in the sim before returning to check whether your car has been torched in the neighbouring housing estate.
But I digress.
I appreciate much of what you say, HM, but having just sat through a morning at LATCC I lost count of the number of times traffic which was coordinated by a neighbouring ACC as on a heading due to slower traffic ahead at or above its present level failed to report the fact on first contact. R/T time was wasted in checking that they were indeed on a heading:"Oh sorry, yes we are" came the reply. It's not a luxury, it is what guarantees your separation and keeps our heart rate down, as we have already agreed. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I would suggest that passing FL200+ some 15 mins after departure is not the busiest of flight phases.
And another thing: If you are not RVSM compliant and you are at or above FL290 in UK UIR, PLEASE report it on first contact with EACH new sector while you are at or are cleared to levels above FL280. It is another separation issue.
For the EMB135/145 drivers: You can request above FL280 if you are not compliant and we will try and fit you in if we can. Just let us know ASAP so we can do the necessary coordination. Non-compliance does not necessarily restrict you to FL280 and below, traffic does.
Hope this helps.
[ 17 November 2001: Message edited by: eyeinthesky ]
Very interesting that you say you've never had an ATCO on the jumpseat. Aside from the smirk at the double entendre, I would suggest that this might have something to do with the difficulty I at least have encountered in getting on board on a fam flight: First I have to get past Jobsworth No.1 at Check-In who insists I, with my stand-by ticket, can't go through until all firm passengers have checked in and there is a seat for me, despite assurances that I will be using the seat behind the newly armoured door. Having negotiated that, I then have to persuade Jobsworth No.2 at the gate to talk to Jobsworth No.3 (Despatcher) to go and talk to the Purser to talk to the Captain to see whether I can come aboard. The Captain knows nothing about me and is quite likely to refuse, or maybe say check again when we're in the cruise. The majority of the value in terms of seeing the preflight briefings and preparation are lost, and it is in danger of becoming no more than a jolly to sunny climes with a good view out of the window. (Nothing wrong with that in itself, but hardly what is intended). If you come to LATCC, you will be met at the gate, escorted round, probably given lunch, and maybe chance to plug in on a sector or even a go in the sim before returning to check whether your car has been torched in the neighbouring housing estate.
But I digress.
I appreciate much of what you say, HM, but having just sat through a morning at LATCC I lost count of the number of times traffic which was coordinated by a neighbouring ACC as on a heading due to slower traffic ahead at or above its present level failed to report the fact on first contact. R/T time was wasted in checking that they were indeed on a heading:"Oh sorry, yes we are" came the reply. It's not a luxury, it is what guarantees your separation and keeps our heart rate down, as we have already agreed. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I would suggest that passing FL200+ some 15 mins after departure is not the busiest of flight phases.
And another thing: If you are not RVSM compliant and you are at or above FL290 in UK UIR, PLEASE report it on first contact with EACH new sector while you are at or are cleared to levels above FL280. It is another separation issue.
For the EMB135/145 drivers: You can request above FL280 if you are not compliant and we will try and fit you in if we can. Just let us know ASAP so we can do the necessary coordination. Non-compliance does not necessarily restrict you to FL280 and below, traffic does.
Hope this helps.
[ 17 November 2001: Message edited by: eyeinthesky ]