TUI airways-2

[737James]

I know its a long way out yet but I have been looking at some Tui holidays to Cyprus and Turkey in June & July, The flights are showing as being on 787 Dreamliner are Tui planning to have a Dreamliner operating shorthaul next summer from Birmingham ? One flight was to DLM and the other was to PFO both high capacity and density routes out of BHX

[marko1]

where are you finding that information please ?

[regularpassenger]

Seems to be something going on with Sanford flights in 2021. Was due to fly from Bristol in August next year but flights seem to have been reduced to only one week of the month according to the timetable (and not the dates we booked). Seems similar is going on from other airports and months as well.

Are these dates no longer showing in the timetable likely to be cancelled? Anyone know what’s going on?

[rog747]

marko1

On TUI Holidays booking engine your full flight details come up with your holiday search, and Dreamliner flights are usually highlighted, along with the times and Flight Nos.

[rog747]

regularpassenger

TBH if any charter holidays as soon as next summer to Florida will happen is still anyone's guess.
I note you are booked and have BRS-SFB flights which have now seemingly disappeared.
Your best bet is to call your Travel Agent, and/or TUI if you booked direct, to confirm what is going on, and have you been rebooked, or is your holiday now cancelled...

My understanding was that SFB is being withdrawn and TUI will now fly into Melbourne Orlando airport down the coast but not until 2022.
This change was to better serve TUI's Marella Cruise ship passengers joining.
I doubt that sadly many cruise ships will be running either next summer.

[4eyed anorak]

Does anyone have any info if TUI are still going ahead with flights to Cape Verde next February from BRS?

[VickersVicount]

I doubt anyone will know that publicly just now and until shortly before. February is fast approaching and in the current climate seems ambitious. But the Canary islands have been on and off so maybe still a chance for CV

[regularpassenger]

rog747

I did just call TUI but they say there is no issue. It’s all very strange. Can’t now book the flight, it doesn’t appear in their timetable. Yet they are holding on to our money. I really do hope it’s still
going! (Covid considerations aside)

[P330]

If it’s any help, the same thing happened to me.

I was booked to CV in March and periodically checked the booking to see if flights were still operating. At some point last Autumn, I noticed I could no longer book my flights. I rang TUI and they said there was nothing to worry about.

6 weeks later, we got an email to say our flights had been cancelled and they gave us an option to rebook or cancel.

I would guess the booking engines change before people get official notification so this could be the same for you.

In our case, holidays were still on offer but the frequency of flights per week was being scaled back so we could still have gone if we changed our dates by a day or two.

[Vokes55]

I believe a lot of the Florida flights in July and August are fully booked already, hence you cannot book them. The Florida program for the entire Summer season is 50% booked, so it would make sense that a few of the July and August peak dates were already sold out.

Florida, Lapland and Ski holidays are three destinations where the majority of customers decided to re-book for the following year instead of taking a refund.

[fanrailuk]

Currently, these holidays/flights are scheduled to continue on Tuesday 12 January (once weekly) :ok:

As per Covid19, always subject to change.

[Vokes55]

4eyed anorak

As always, depends on the government. If the government don't advise against all but essential travel by February, it'll probably go ahead as planned.

Cape Verde has had a fairly high COVID rate, more a victim of it's tiny population than anything. However country-wide rates have been coming down, and the most important islands for tourism, Sal and Boa Vista, are COVID free. Boa Vista hasn't recorded a positive case since December 5th and Sal hasn't recorded a case since December 2nd. https://covid19.cv/

[Mr A Tis]

Noticed a lot of TUI (UK) doing many B787 flights to places like Dallas, Detroit & Mexico City are these passenger charters or bulk cargo flights?

[yeo valley]

TUI have been doing a lot of cargo flights recently.I think its mostly for the motor industry.

[Downwind_Left]

TUI have been operating a lot of freight charters with pretty much their whole 787 fleet, more than one on some days, mainly with the -9 fleet.

Routes operated include;

Frankfurt-Greenville
Frankfurt-Mexico City
Frankfurt-Seoul
Stuttgart-Guardalajara
Stuttgart-Mexico City
Stuttgart-Detroit
Amsterdam-Dallas/Ft Worth

While these flights continue, In recent days they have also been operating food/goods import charters to the UK as a result of the Channel port blockades.

G-TUIC has operated 5 Amsterdam-London Heathrow rotations over the last 3 days positioning back to Gatwick from Heathrow at lunchtime today.

[chuzwuza]

I am looking to travel BHX-ACE in mid feb and TUI website is still showing two flights a week as available. Given the current situation does anyone have any inside info on if these flights are likely to be operating? Cheers

[CabinCrewe]

No inside info, but I’d say unlikely...

[rog747]

chuzwuza

TUI announced that all holidays flying from England are cancelled until 12 FEB in keeping with the UK Gov.'s lockdown in force in England reportedly until 21 FEB, which incudes NO international travel (holidays abroad) is permitted, so you will not be able to travel.
TUI seems to be doing cancelling holidays on a rolling basis so that is why you can still see flights on sale after then.
The Canary Islands has now been added to ALL UK travel corridors banned from Monday.

Both Jet2 and Easy Jet have cancelled all holidays until the end of March.

I cannot foresee even Easter holidays as operating in any shape or form.

However when we are all let off the lead (safely I hope) then I can foresee on of the biggest travel sales boom ever seen.
The demand is enormous.

[chuzwuza]

Thanks for the info rog.
I suspected that that would be the case but after seeing that FR are still operating a very limited service I thought there may be a slim chance. For info, I am not crazy and expecting a holiday in the middle of a pandemic. I live in Lanzarote.

[787Heaven]

Hi all.

Boeing currently has assigned a 787-9 to TUI, line number 1102. Does anyone have any info on whether TUI will accept this new jet (G-TUIP) due to the current pandemic or will it be NTU? It’s going to be built in Charleston. 😁

[Smudge's Lot]

It will be TUIP but delivery date is a moving unknown. CURRENT plan is for winter this year.
2 of the 787-8 that were going to germany has been postponed.
The TUI Nordic fleet has been slashed to just 2 737s which means that any 767-300s in the Nordics will return to the UK fleet by this summer. However G-OBYG is in storage and is not expected to fly again in revenue service for TUI before being returned to its lessor. Next winter (I presume winter 21-22) will see the remaining 4 757s and 767s leave the fleet. All subject to change of course!

[787Heaven]

thanks for all the info! I can’t believe the Nordics are going to two planes. It seemed as though they were expanding again (before the pandemic). I’ve got some really great memories from the trips we did to Scandinavia (can’t remember a lot too haha)

[ROC10]

TUI fly Nordic currently have:
2 x 737 MAX-8
3 x 737-800
2 x 767-300

Two of the 738s have just transferred from TUI UK (ex G-TAWH/J) while one was supposed to join TUI UK a couple of years back and was registered as G-TAWY before being immediately re-registered to SE-RFX and returned to the Nordics (presumably due to the MAX grounding).

Interestingly, while TUI UK have just lost these two 738s to Nordic, they have recently received a 738 from TUI Germany and are due to receive three more from there soon, two of these being the former G-TAWP/R which transferred from UK to Germany a few years back.

Does anyone know why there have been so many intra-group swaps recently, especially when one aircraft just seems to get ‘replaced’ by another? I assume it’s all down to lease end dates, otherwise I’m at a loss, as there will obviously be costs involved in re-registering aircraft in another country, modifying liveries, interiors, etc.

[Vokes55]

Interiors and liveries don't need modifying and the cost involved in re-registering aircraft is negligible. It's just a company moving assets around to where they believe they are required. There's also a far bigger picture involving maintenance cycles, lease expiry, administration and of course taxation that will make sense to a few people but leave the rest of us scratching our heads.

[hec7or]

Travel Weekly article 6th Jan 2021

"The first and second packages focused on loans from the state and will be repaid with interest.
The third package is wider – a loan of €1.091 billion, a credit facility of €200 million and a capital increase of €500 million.
It is a very good sign that Unifirm, our largest shareholder, already agreed to participate in the capital increase.
Unifirm, an investment vehicle of the Russian Mordashov family, already owns almost 25% of Tui."


where are we going with this?

[Yeehaw22]

To a whole new world of debt

[Jenny Tails]

TCX 2.0 perhaps?

[double-oscar]

Unlikely. The German government has an interest in TUI unlike TCX who found little or no help from the UK government. You only have to look at Condor which has somehow managed to survive not only TCX going bust but also the current pandemic. The biggest investors in TUI are also unlikely to walk away so I think one can have some confidence that the company has the same or slightly better chance of survival than many airlines and travel companies.

[737James]

There seems to be lots of rumours flying around about what Tui's current summer plans are, I have it from Tui BHX crew that they will just be a 738/max & 787 base from May so no 757s with 787's operating flights if possible with Covid restrictions to DLM,PFO,AYT and BVC

The other one that I have heard from a few sources is that Tui will getting two extra brand new Max's that were built for a failed Asian airline this is instead of of Ex Fly Dubai aircraft. Personally I would be surprised if this is true as mid age 738 must be cheaper to lease than a brand new Max unless the leasing company just want to get some return on it quickly

[Jonty]

Rumour has it TUI are paying €420m a year in interest payments.

That’s not sustainable.

[davidjohnson6]

Do you have a source for that ?

[Yeehaw22]

That sounds like the amount for the first repayment due on the German loan. Due end of the year I believe.

[Jonty]

Just rumours. I have heard it from several different sources, but nothing concrete.

[gilesdavies]

I was just curious what TUI are doing with their 787's at the moment?

I was on FlightRadar24 Sunday evening and noticed two 787's heading out from Manchester to Detroit and Philadelphia.

[rog747]

Cargo flying, along with BA, Virgin, Air Canada, Aer Lingus, Condor, Neos to name but a few....

[yeo valley]

There has been 1 787 in storage at BRS for quite some time. I dont know if it is still there.

[airvanman]

Yes still at BRS

[double-oscar]

"Rumour has it TUI are paying €420m a year in interest payments.

That’s not sustainable."

Apart from being a rumour, that is rather a meaningless comment unless you can provide some further qualification. In recent years TUI has not only been meeting its interest repayments but also been paying shareholders a dividend of approximately €300m. Therefore, in a more normal trading environment, the business could easily sustain €420m in interest payments. However, should life not return to normal then the company has taken steps to secure its finances and roll over some of its debt. Anyway, first quarter results are out shortly so that will give a better indication of how the business is doing.

[hec7or]

I think you mean 4th Q, it's only Feb.

[Mr @ Spotty M]

Some companies have year ending September/October.

[Severn]

Two days ago a TUI Fly Belgium B737-8 MAX operated the first commercial MAX flight in Europe since the grounding order was removed.

Today, TUI (UK) B737-8 MAX (G-TUMB) departed MAN for an hours flight up to 40,000ft over Southern Scotland before returning to MAN. This is the first time a MAX has flown in the UK since G-TUMF was brought back from TFS to BHX in September 2020 as far as I can tell. I'm assuming the plan is to have these flying this summer?

[Smudge's Lot]

Yes, that's the plan. Several are due delivery from Boeing over the next few weeks as well.

[PinOnTheRight]

If you mean the first time a MAX has operated in UK airspace since September 2020, then there were 2 Icelandair MAXs that transited the UK last Sunday en-route from Lleida back to Keflavik.

[RA85684]

Is there anyone that has any knowledge with regards to 757 and 767 operations this summer. info.flightmapper hasn't updated any TUI details yet however the flights are currently on sale. I'm thinking specifically with regards to 757 operations MAN-JSI and 767 operations MAN-CFU/BVC.

Any info greatly appreciated, I understand S21 is to be the final season for 757/767 ops at BY

[737James]

Is there anyone that has any knowledge with regards to 757 and 767 operations this summer. info.flightmapper hasn't updated any TUI details yet however the flights are currently on sale. I'm thinking specifically with regards to 757 operations MAN-JSI and 767 operations MAN-CFU/BVC.

Any info greatly appreciated, I understand S21 is to be the final season for 757/767 ops at BY

I do not think that there will be many flights operated by 757s this summer as Tui will have all their 737-800 and Maxs in service along with 5 787s operating short/mid haul. I know some crew from 757 bases have had their 787 training pulled forward from later this year to Feb & March. Hopefully someone will be able to give you a more official reply

[pabely]

G-TUMJ out of BFI on delivery to LGW now.

[GBYAJ]

Assuming there won’t be another lockdown, we’ll all be going on holiday this year and the schedule isn’t up in the air at all does anyone know where the 737 Max’s might be based this summer?

[Yeehaw22]

MAN, LGW, BHX, BRS.

All stc obviously.

[ROC10]

Just to clarify, TUI’s MAXs are not 8-200s (believe only Ryanair have those). They’re just standard MAX-8s.

[hec7or]

Besides Ryanair, VietJet Air is also one of the few customers of the MAX 200 variant with an order of 100 airplanes placed in May 2016......Wikipedia (usual caution advised).

[rog747]

ROC10

Indeed, the current stored TUI UK fleet and those built awaiting the next deliveries are all 737 M-8 (189 seats)
TUI UK were deciding to drop the MAX moniker.

TUI do have a sizeable order for the larger -10 model (>230 seats) which was supposed to be delivered this season, but AFAIK these have not been built yet.

The TUI Group has started re-introducing the Boeing 737 Max to service, with its Belgian carrier TUIfly conducting flights to Malaga and Alicante.
(OO-MAX), a 737 M 8, departed Brussels shortly before 09:45 on 17 February.
At the moment TUI have a very small programme in Belgium with up to two flights a day, with the Max only be used once a week from Brussels.”

[matjr79]

MAN-LCA-MAN 24Jun-05Jul

Had my summer flight timings changed again but hardly surprising
Pleasantly surprised to be told TOM2438 OUT and TOM2775 RTN are to be OPS with a 757 instead of the MAX.
RES rang trying to sell the extra leg rooms seats.

[Wallsendmag]

rog747

I don't think the first Max 10 has flown yet.

[ROC10]

matjr79

I’m assuming you’ve seen a seat map? The 737s also have extra legroom seats.

[matjr79]

ROC10

Not seen a seat map.. i had email and then a call off TUI Reservations about my flight times changing.
They advised the system is showing B757 each way.. compared to 3 months ago they said B757 out and B737 back..

[CabinCrewe]

Nice to see some extra short haul wide body action from GLA, BRS etc
https://simpleflying.com/tui-uk-widebody-summer-seats/

[GrahamK]

I'd be extremely surprised to see GLA happen

[Curious Pax]

Can anyone shed any light on the 737 fleet plan? They had 10-12 second hand 738s (G-TUKx series) planned to join last summer which I had the impression were to cover the capacity shortfall caused by the Max grounding. Obviously 2020 didn’t pan out as expected (no kidding!) but several of these 738s still seem to be coming (2 ex TUI Germany examples are at Bristol with UK ids I think). However with the Max ban ending, and new Max’s being delivered, coupled with the summer 2021 uncertainty I would have the the G-TUKx plan would have been scrubbed?

[Fly757X]

My interpretation is that a lot of those used frames arriving was to help cover the opportunities that would arise out of the TCX collapse. Of course the MAX issue would’ve been a consideration too no doubt.

[MKY661]

According to Jethro the acquisition of 2 738NG's have been cancelled.

[CabinCrewe]

GrahamK

Not sure why, but we’ll see.

[Buster the Bear]

One still at Lasham in full livery, G-TUKC. It arrived 3 days prior to lockdown.

[Vokes55]

Nice to see some extra short haul wide body action from GLA, BRS etc
https://simpleflying.com/tui-uk-widebody-summer-seats/

This flying program was published in September and has been largely unchanged since so is definitely subject to change based most likely on what happens on April 12th.

The GLA and BRS 787 flights will depend on whether Cancun and Sanford flights happen, as these are simply gaps in the long haul schedule.

Gatwick will almost certainly end up having more 787 flights as the schedule was drawn up on the basis they’d need to use the slots, including four lines of flying coming back from Norwegian. Now that the slot rules have been waived, and especially if certain destinations remain off limits, I could see more 787 flights to the core destinations in Greece and Turkey in place of multiple 737 frequencies as well as responding to last minute demand spikes on certain routes if we have a similar summer to last.

With the loss of Norwegian and an increase in easyJet based aircraft, it’ll be interesting to see if TUI end up moving to the South Terminal at Gatwick long term.

[FRatSTN]

I suspect it's also a good way of maintaining seat capacity at MAN and BHX especially where it's arguably more competitive against Jet2. Does this mean all 787 ops are being consolidated at five UK airports or will they still be positioning in for long-haul from DSA, NCL and EDI too?

[GrahamK]

Not sure why, but we’ll see.
Unless NS has a change of heart, holiday flights from Scotland wont be happening this summer I suspect

[VentureGo]

New Max 8 G-TUMH being delivered from Boeing Field, landing at LGW at approx.10.35 this morning.

[GBYAJ]

GrahamK

on the basing of the Max’s I thought the original plan last year was for gla and edi to be two of the first bases. Made sense to have the most efficient aircraft flying from the furthest bases. But the fact that they aren’t planned to be based there this year would suggest that this could well be true. Busy summer for Newcastle unless border controls are brought in!!

[Vokes55]

FRatSTN

As long as they can operate to CUN and SFB, I’d imagine they’d still be flying in to these bases to operate. The short haul gaps just allow 787s to be permanently based at BRS, GLA and BHX (extra aircraft) with fewer expensive positioning flights.

[ROC10]

GBYAJ

Is it confirmed they aren’t basing any MAXs at EDI/GLA (if flights are allowed)?

It would definitely seem to make sense to base them at the likes of EDI/GLA/NCL/MAN/DSA in priority to other bases and like you say, the original plans for S19 were MAN/GLA/EDI.

[CWL757]

Today saw 3 TUI 737s flown to BRS for storage. Presumably they had a good deal on storage costs?

[Yeehaw22]

ROC10

They are to be based at MAN/LGW/BHX/BRS initially.

[ROC10]

Does anyone know if they are planning (again) to disband TUI fly Nordic? It would appear, from Planespotters/Jethros websites that much of their very small fleet is due to transfer to TUI UK.

Looks like 2 x MAX, 1 x 738, 2 x 763, which would leave them with 3 x 738, unless those are going elsewhere.

Bit strange considering they only transferred two UK 738s over there and already one is transferring back in June.

[Downwind_Left]

TUI UK and Nordic do, or at least did until Brexit possibly ended that, share a virtual AOC. So although they both have their own AOC, their management structures are identical - UK post holders also hold the same post on Nordic AOC. So it’s 2 airlines with the same people as AOC post managers. Been so for quite a while. This is because of the huge amount of cross-utilisation of aircraft between the regions. Lots of G- reg 787s in Winter in Nordic and SE- reg 767s in the UK in Summer, flown by UK pilots.

So although it looks like 767 SE-RFS is “moving” to the UK this summer as G-OBYK, in reality it was here last summer as well. But post Brexit UK pilots can’t fly an SE- registered aircraft anymore.

So the capacity loss for the Nordic low season isn’t as dramatic as it looks, just people don’t normally notice as registrations didn’t always change until now.

As to the 737s, they’ve moved frequently between airlines, and sometimes back again... Mainly UK/Germany/Nordic. At least 1 Max already delivered this year ended up in the UK instead of the Netherlands. There are still 8 more Max aircraft due for delivery imminently, and these could end up with Nordic, or free up other aircraft to move around the group. Plus 3 second hand 737-800s could easily be diverted.

I think all European airlines, and indeed most in the world, are taking a very fluid approach to fleet planning in 2021 due to huge uncertainty.

[VickersVicount]

despite all the TUI optimism, I see they're curting various Caribbean routes including some Varadero and St Lucia

[Jamesair1]

The travel trade is built on optimism with a bit of realism having to be faced from time to time

[Vokes55]

VickersVicount

Neither Varadero or St Lucia are being cut. In fact Varadero is going up to twice a week from Manchester next Summer. If you’re talking about LGW-VRA or MAN-UVF, these were only opened back in November when they were more or less the only destinations available to fly to and were never going to be permanent.

[737James]

Today is the day that I have been able to select the seats on my flight to Cyprus in July, I knew it was planned to be operated by a 787 and the seating plan confirmed this a being a 787-800.

I was a little surprised to find rows 31-37 available as these have previously been designated as extra space seats, Does anyone know have they changed the configuration for the aircraft operating shorthaul ? It looks like the premium cabin is still at the front with 2-3-2

[pamann]

The Premium cabin is a great option for short haul. Regular short haul service offering I believe, but the seats are so much better and all for the price of extra legroom.

[matjr79]

Nice result scoring the 787.
Still having fun and games with my booking.. one minute a 757, next a 738, next a flight number change and cancelled my return flight.
Any info on TOM2438 24Jun MAN-LCA TOM2775/05Jul LCA-MAN?

[CWL757]

Just seen a few photos of G-TUMF outside the ex MAEL hangar at BHX (I believe it's STS now?) It seems to have had absolutely loads of tiny repairs to the fusalage, Missing an engine cowl, damaged/replaced cockpit window and a bag covering the leading edge of the tail. Anyone know anything? It was the one stored in TFS for months if that could be something to do with it?

[Downwind_Left]

G-TUMF,
They say a picture paints a thousand words;
https://www.flickr.com/photos/hoover49/50919886388/sizes/l/

I have no further information, but I suspect whatever work is being done, Boeing is getting the invoice. The aircraft had only been delivered new a couple of weeks before the worldwide grounding, and hasn’t flown a revenue flight since. So it’s impossible to believe the work is due to damage during flight. More likely to be mainly paint defect warranty work plus assorted other issues as a result of long term storage.

[SWBKCB]

Long term storage in not exactly an ideal location.

[Smudge's Lot]

I am led to believe that due to the corrosion caused by parking outside next to the sea in TFS, it did need several skin/rivets/joints replacements and has been in the hanger being worked on since it arrived back in the UK

[ImPlaneCrazy]

Although I'm sure the schedules are constantly changing, does anyone know which routes the MAN based TUI 787s will be used on presuming a restart is allowed on May 17th?

Thanks in advance.

[matjr79]

MAN-LCA-MAN day 7 is one route confirmed in Jun/Jul

[CWL757]

Anyone know why G-TAWF has been flying back and forth BHX-NCL the last few days? Training NCL based crew?

[CWL757]

I think I know the answer to this, but are Sunwing still due this year? I'm guessing not with the MAX and transfered 737s in the fleet?

[Smudge's Lot]

Nope, No Sunwing this year.
The 737s are planned to fly over 300 non revenue sectors to get the pilots back into training, as the 737s have done no flights since late October last year.(except for the odd delivery)

[NickBarnes]

Just out of interest, without Sunwing I assume that dispite the reduced schedule at NWI this summer with flights operating Mon, Tues, Fri and Sat to the 3 destinations, the schedule shows that the aircraft will still be originating at NWI so assume just a regular TUI aircraft based for this summer?

[Vokes55]

That will almost certain change to W-patterns (or be scrapped) once there’s more certainty over the flying schedule. Same for ABZ and BFS.

[737James]

Smudge's Lot

I am not sure if this was what you saying but I had heard a few weeks ago that in early May Tui were going to be using their 737s on the Royal Mail sectors and that Tui had been trying to get ad hoc work for the PL football teams

[A340600MAN]

Hi all

Can anyone shed a little light on 2 particular aircraft TUI were due to receive last year.

G-TUKB 37740 According to my records this is still stored in Amman as LZ-DAD. Is this no longer expected to operated for TUI?

G-TUKF 33605 I believe this to be stored by TUI at St Athan. What is the plan for this aircraft? Staying or leaving TUI?

[Buster the Bear]

G-TUKC now sports full Aero Mexico colours at Lasham.

[ROC10]

It’s kinda looking like they’ll no longer be taking any of the second-hand 738s (other than the transfers from Germany), despite some of them already having been painted in TUI colours.

It does, however, look like TUI UK will be taking several MAXs that were due for other group airlines, as well as acquiring two from TUI Nordic which are 2 years old.

[CWL757]

Anyone know what aircraft TUI will be using from the 17th? Various or will it just be the 737/787s?

[yeo valley]

It will be 737 aircraft used from CWL

[BHX5DME]

TUI are only from 4 airports from 17.05.21 - BHX, BRS, MAN & LGW

[CWL757]

yeah CWL has been all 737 since W13 i believe. I was on one of the last TOM 757 flights from CWL. I was referring more to LGW & MAN that have a mix of all the fleet.

[yeo valley]

The 787 will do long and short haul from LGW,MANBHX and BRS. 737 aircraft will operate from these bases as well.

[TimmyW]

BHX5DME

More from June onwards I read today.

[sparkie320]

Buster the Bear

repainted at Norwich where it arrived on the 29/4 in full TUI livery, departed via a test flight over Ireland to Lasham 7/5
wonder how many others will loose the TUI livery if not being used

[CabinCrewe]

I saw a Euro based ? Dutch TUI 787 with TUI titles on the underside of fuselage. Is that new and do any UK aircraft have it? wonder if 737s would get it too. Seems to be all the fashion.

[Nicholas.kelly]

Are there any flights operated by 757/787 this July from 12/7-17/7 from LGW-MAH and LGW-PMI

[Saulman]

Out of curiosity are the rumours of early redundancy packages true for winter 22?

[CabinCrewe]

Seems a lot more ‘consolidation’ amongst the 5 TUI airlines planned. I don’t think i’d realised they weren’t fully ‘as one’ anyway. Looks like LTN to gain more in the flight ops part of the European operation.

[737James]

Not sure how it has been across the board but have been hearing some of the outbound pax numbers have been very poor over the last couple of weeks with 737s being used instead of 787s and some flights only having 7-80 pax

I know travel restrictions have caused problems but with a strong late booking market i am surprised the numbers are not higher during these peak times, it looks like many pax have moved their holidays to 2022.

[nomilk]

I've read that UK tour operators have difficulties securing hotel rooms since hotels, if they have a choice, prefer EU guests which are less likely to cancel due to changing travel restrictions. Normally, the British are very welcome since they are willing to pay more than e.g. Germans.

[Yeehaw22]

From people I've spoken to (some of which have their same holidays every year) they just aren't prepared to risk getting caught out by the government's dart board technique of imposing restrictions. They aren't bothered about getting pcr tests but they won't risk getting stuck in hotel quarantine. Considering most of the popular destinations are currently Amber it's too much a risk. If the government imposed say a 7 day notice period before imposing Red restrictions I think it would do wonders for the leisure travel industry.

[GBYAJ]

Having read the same things I’d also throw in that I’m double vaccinated and did so with the full intention of going abroad on holiday this year. However I’m not prepared to take a test 2 days before return in a foreign country and potentially be stuck there for another 2 weeks with 2 kids. I know a few people who are taking their lap tops and can afford to stay (and will be working from home anyway) so are happy to take the risk. But this won’t be many.

I was looking at the holidays available last week and noted on the TUI that you had to book at least 1 week in advance to order all the tests which effectively removes the v late bookings.

the PM talks about saving summer holidays but unfortunately it’s too late for that unless they do it this week and we all book for the next three weeks!

[Jonty]

40% reduction in manpower.

https://apple.news/Au8UWffJRSF6_1FY6OHTH2Q

The relevant paragraph in case the link doesn’t work:A further advantage will be brought in by the fleet usage, particularly for spare aircraft whose management will be deployed where and when necessary, a move expected to reduce delays by approximately 25%. On the personnel side, the new organization will permit workforce reductions of approximately 40%.

taken from an article in Airways Magazine.

https://airwaysmag.com/airlines/tui-consolidates-five-airlines/

[cjhants]

737 James #106
Tuesday max 800 flight LGW JTR had over 100 empty seats. Not sure how long the airlines can live with these loads in what should be peak season.

[daz211]

I was thinking the same and remember approximately 70-80% have payed for these flights / Holidays well over a year ago 😬

[737James]

It is quite worrying how low some of the pax numbers are at present, with Three PFO flights yesterday only have 80-72-101 onboard long flights would prove very costly per head although savings made on ground agent costs with such low numbers.

It not just Tui that are finding this as I believe Jet2 are finding similar and they have more seat only revenue

[ZULUBOY]

Recently back from Chania. We booked flights with Ryanair and booked the hotel directly but the hotel was one used by Tui and Jet2. Only one British family in there and hardly any English heard during our stay on Crete. Mainly Scandinavian guests along with Germans, French and Dutch. Having said that our flight from BHX to Chania was virtually full and our flight to Berlin from Chania with Easyjet yesterday was also full.

[DomyDom]

Lets keep in mind that the direction of travel is improving albeit we would like it to be improving quicker. In 3 months we have gone from no foreign holidays to holidays within Europe without quarantine for the double jabbed with testing. I think within the next couple of months its likely much of the testing requirements will go for shorthaul and quarantine dropped for much of long haul. We need to keep reminding ourselves where we have come from and what we have had to deal with and well done to the airlines and their employees for making it work. This was never going to be easy. It's a slow process but the vaccines are working and we will get there.

[AirUK]

Very well said, DomyDom. A lot of posters here seem to have their glasses half empty. The fact that people are now able to take a holiday, safely due to the protection of being fully-vaccinated, is something to celebrate. There are still some restrictions in place, yes, and these won’t suit everyone’s circumstances just yet. But it’s a start.

[brian_dromey]

I think thats a fair assessment, the travel restart is bound to be a slow start and grow over time. How many people will have already booked their staycations, or made plans to holiday in the UK? particularly in the school holidays. While the retired can often go at the drop of a hat, that is not always the case, with volunteering commitments, granny daycare, part-time jobs etc. The 18-25 market are predominantly not vaccinated + 2 weeks for the purposes of travel and the majority in-between have commitments that requite at least a few days/weeks to plan.

The majority who want to travel this summer have probably already booked with easyJet, Ryanair or BA as flight-only. TUI simply were not offering anything at the time, so the market is quite slim, but will recover. I think confidence will return now the green list is enlarged and amber list destinations become more stable. The risk of mandatory hotel quarantine is very unappealing, but embarking on a 2 week holiday to a green list destination makes that possibility vanishingly small.

[ATNotts]

The bottom line at present with leisure travel is fairly simple - don't even think about it if you're not prepared / able to isolate at home on your return, whether you're vaccinated on not. That's not because people should be particularly afraid of catching or coming into contact with Covid-19, but because UK government policy on foreign travel simply makes it too risky.

At the moment the travel industry probably has the worst of both worlds, operating again on the plus side, but from a negative standpoint operating half empty aircraft and given the wafer thin margins that the package and leisure airline industries operate losing money on bookings hand over fist. I am guessing that often, given that some of the loads mentioned above are the norm across the network, not flying at all may actually be more sensible from the balance sheet point of view.

[inOban]

The travel industry is asking for furlough to be extended after September, recognising that demand is subdued, people aren't as desperate to travel as they thought. Just as I read that nightclubs are cutting back their hours, fortunately reducing virus spread. Fortunately for the government, the public are quite cautious.

[ATNotts]

You only have to glance at any "Have Your Say" thread relating to an article on foreign travel on the BBC News website to see that many, many people would still rather the population were kept imprisoned on these Islands; especially it seems among the older (largely vaccinated) age groups so trying to operate airlines and inclusive tour holidays at present, despite all the hype must be very difficult to do profitably at present, though were TUI, for example, to decide the best course of action financially were to shut down for the rest of Summer 2021 and Winter 2021/22 the result would probably losing market share to those that didn't permanently, with possibly even worse consequences for their business and employee prospects.

I was researching the possibility of taking a driving holiday this Autumn, but looking at the requirements, particularly for non EU/EEA citizens, it is an absolute minefield, with Belgium banning UK citizens completely, the Dutch not overly keen and most demanding passenger locator forms making driving through numerous countries such a hassle that frankly it's better not to even think about it at the moment. Things may change later this year, but I'm not confident.

[hec7or]

I noticed that TUI have cancelled holidays to Italy until 15th August but holidays with partner airlines are still operating

Cancelled "Lakes & Mountains holidays to the below destinations due to depart on or before 15 August 2021:

• Austria

• Slovenia

• Italy (flying with TUI Airways – holidays including flights with our partner airlines are still operating)"

Seems a bit strange, cancelling some holidays, but only if they are TUI Airways.

[davidjohnson6]

Are those partner airlines prepared to give back the money that TUI has/will pay ? If not, is TUI prepared to give a 100% refund to the person who booked the holiday, while still being contractually bound to pay the airfare to the partner airline ?

Austria and Italy have both pretty much banned the entry of tourists coming from the UK for the time being.
If I had a flight booked from London to Verona with Ryanair... I would expect Ryanair to still run the flight and keep the money on the basis that a seat was available to me if I had turned up at the airport... the fact that I would have to spend 5 days in quarantine and ruin a holiday would be something Ryanair would tell me to take up with the Italian Govt

[GBYAJ]

Notice that TUI have cut capacity for the rest of the summer from the UK. They have said something along the lines of while the UK usually accounts for the greater proportion of summer customers the European countries are leading the way with more flexible travel policies putting the British off travelling.

On a different note, G-TUKF arrived at Newcastle this week. All white. Is it for storage or will
it be used on some of the limited summer program
shortly?

[SWBKCB]

Storage, I understand

[VickersVicount]

Guardian - TUI slashes flights (https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/aug/12/tui-slashes-summer-holiday-schedule-despite-bookings-travel-flight-coronavirus-restrictions-uk)
Are TUI feeling the pinch more than most? With rumours of more announcements and all these cancellations, even if you so want to travel you might think twice?
A friend was on a Greek flight, Crete I think, and said it was only a 1/3 full.
Presumably theres only so long that can be sustained.
The TUI cruise side of things presumably shelved in US while transatlantic showing no sign of movement.

[pamann]

I’d say that flying a much reduced schedule is probably better than flying the regular schedule with half empty planes. That’s what costs money.

Sensible move if you ask me.

[Yeehaw22]

Tui also have a slight advantage in that the European side of things is operating at a higher percentage of its schedule than its UK counterpart and has been for some time. The UK gov have done a grand job of "allowing" travel yet making it perilous to do so.

Id agree with pamann, no point in operating a full schedule if the planes are going a quarter full. Batten down the hatches and hope 22 is more back to normal.

[Vokes55]

Looking at the loads across a number of airlines, I’d say TUI are suffering less than most.

An example being Bristol to Ibiza today:

TOM6696: 143/189
LS1835: 75/189
EZY6087: 58/186

Emphasis on “suffering less” rather than doing better. A Saturday in August should be full across the board.

[AirportPlanner1]

Friend of the family (from Suffolk) was transferred to Bristol at short notice with cancellation of the London flight (not sure if LGW or STN). They cancelled instead. So that could account for TUI high load, but consolidating not necessarily good for business. Now flying Jet2 instead.

[SWBKCB]

Think it's a common issue - Jet2 and TUI also doing a lot of double dropping

[TimmyW]

The aticle says it has had double the number of early bookings for 2022 as it did at pre pandemic levels, which is positive. However, I do believe we will still have the same traffic light system in place in another 12 months, so anything could happen.

[AirportPlanner1]

Double-dropping isn’t such an issue I’d have thought. Getting someone to drive 4-5 hours is something else!

[GBYAJ]

I agree but think it’s more fundamental and unless the testing regime loosens up next year will be the same. The majority of families will not take the risk of the 2 day pre-departure test when abroad. All holiday you have hanging over you the prospect of testing positive and having to stay in a dodgy foreign quarantine hotel. Bring in the fact that you have to pay a few £’000 for this holiday and thenmore for quarantine it’s too risky

id happily quarantine at home but not abroad.

[SWBKCB]

AirportPlanner1

My point was plenty of half full flights.

[Kakpipe Cosmonaut]

TUI reporting cash flow positive as well.

Is anyone else?

TUI is in one of the better (or least-worst) positions.

I agree about people can’t be bothered with going away on holiday this year. That is exactly me!

[Dorking]

GBYAJ

My view entirely and I suspect millions of others too

[772]

Surely if in twelve months time we still have the traffic light system and testing there won’t be much left of the industry!

[whatdoesthisbuttondo]

Tui is doing pretty well tbh.

The fact that we are a huge company and have markets in many European countries has massively spread the risk and exposure to covid. Tui as a group have also been well supported by the German government.

Tui airways is one of the only U.K. airlines that haven’t made any pilot redundancies during covid and are actually still promoting people at the moment.

There’s even talk of recruiting next year.

The Tui flights I’ve been on (operating) have all had decent loads and we’re adding new routes all the time.

I know pprune is often synonymous with complaining but in Tui (U.K. anyway) the atmosphere is pretty great and we (from the guys I speak to) feel really lucky we have been so well looked after and the outlook is very positive.

[OzzyOzBorn]

It is really disappointing to note that the media is obsessing about the price of PCR tests for travel rather than the justification for requiring them at all. They're allegedly necessary to detect new Covid variants slipping in to the UK, but in order for that to be achieved positive tests must be sequenced. We know that is only happening in around 5% of cases, so the reality is that they are utterly useless for the purpose of detecting new variants. However, what they are really useful for is allowing politicians to pretend to have opened up air travel to and from the UK whilst in reality raising the barrier so high that few can risk / afford to do so. I also suspect that the anti-carbon zealots may have a hand in keeping this nonsense going.

I recently received a promotion from Air Baltic. Short break in Riga with return flights from MAN plus decent hotel £175. I was seriously tempted until I factored in the costs of PCR tests, the time / hassle factor, and particularly that exciting day when you would wander round Riga searching for a Covid testing clinic where English is understood - because my Latvian isn't great. Maybe not! And this thought process is inhibiting travel to so many destinations. One might consider it worthwhile for two weeks in Spain with local testing available in a large hotel complex with no language barrier. But as for the short breaks market - it has been annihilated. Totally impractical.

The time has come for the industry at large to get together and DEMAND a complete end to PCR testing requirements for travel. We could live with lateral flow tests for red list with PCR follow-up for those testing positive. Everything else is pure 'Covid Theatre', and it is decimating the UK travel industry as long as it persists. Only the UK government is persisting with this nonsense, and we know that they have fallen into the grip of green zealots with an alternative agenda, from the PM's wife downwards. As Rahm Emmanuel famously said: "Never let a good crisis go to waste!"

[Yeehaw22]

Well said ozzyozborn.

[ATNotts]

The UK's objective always was to ostensibly open up international travel, but then ensure that the number and height of hurdles over which would be travellers have to jump was such that it largely made leisure too much hassle for the majority. It surprises me not one iota that the private (rip off) business that are conducting the PCR testing aren't analysing for new variants, they're merely covering a commercial transaction with passengers that has been required by the government. The "Lighthouse" labs and those of the likes of Oxford and Imperial Universities are much more likely to be sequencing to establish the existence of new variants. The uncertainty around the risk level of possible destinations just adds a further (perhaps deliberate) level of uncertainty to the extent that when booking a trip the number one consideration should be "can I afford to self isolate at home should my destination turn amber?" or "can I afford the government hotel stay should my destination turn Red?" If the answer to either is "no" then, don't travel.

As to whether testing regimes are still in place this time next year, I wouldn't bet my house on their having ceased by August 2022.

[pabely]

Bookmark.....have you a nice one?:}

[ATNotts]

Nothing special, but I'm not about to place a bet on it, given the way this virus transmits, and there not being another new variant sometime over the next few months that puts the willies up governments, not only in UK but across much of the world.

I did say I wouldn't in my previous posting, not that I would!

[BA318]

Meanwhile the rest of Europe is travelling and having fun. 787s and 747s operating short haul flights because of demand. Good to hear things are ok at TUI though. Hopefully the Europe side helps keep things going.

[ATNotts]

But for how long? Germany's figures are really on the rise now, and they have added some Greek Islands as areas of risk meaning testing and quarantine on return. Certainly TUI UK must be in a better situation than many here having been essentially supported by German Government money during the pandemic.

I am really surprised that TUI hasn't become involved in the emergency airlift of personnel from Afghanistan. With so many 787s redundant presently you might have though they would have placed a competitive tender (supposing I guess they were even approached to do so). They are already operating 2 x 787-9s on EMA-MIA cargo services for DHL.

[Yeehaw22]

whatdoesthisbuttondo

Whilst I admire your optimism I can assure you that not all working groups within TUI are being treated in the same way nor are they being as well 'looked after' as the guys and gals upfront. I've personally seen pilots recruited just as the pandemic started being treated fantastically well, whilst members of staff elsewhere with 20 and 30+ years service being shown the door. And I'm sure that many of the cabin crew that are currently going through the CR process wouldn't share your sentiments either. Several working groups who worked right through the pandemic even when all the fleet was grounded have been on a far worse deal than the drivers. I'm not knocking what you guys negotiated, just noting that it's not all as rosy across the business.

I see a lot mentioned of the German "support" however these were not bailouts, they were loans, and TUI as a whole now have a monumental amount of debt to repay and will need several very good years to get back on an even keel. They are not alone in this regard however they have several competitors who are not as debt laden.

I just hope that the never ending restrictions are released as more countries get vaccination rates up and we can all get back to work properly.

[Dannyboy39]

Unfortunately this is the reality of an airline... even before the pandemic. Shows you what a strong union can threaten.

What is the latest on a possible head office move to MK? Is that just rumour?

Anyway, on the point of testing - am I right in thinking, regardless of destination, there is no requirement for a PCR test for entry into the UK, its just the follow up tests that need to be performed as PCRs when back in England? For a flight, a rapid lateral flow test would suffice? (so you could literally take your box of tests with you in the suitcase?)

In all honesty, we're nowhere near the end of this. I'd be surprised if testing wasn't required still by the end of next summer. Which is frustrating because Covid is going to keep rolling through for many a year - with immunity possibly waning, we're at maximum protection. Yet still heavily restricted. The news cycle is not pushing the government on it either.

[cjhants]

You need to book a lateral flow test from an “approved supplier”, you cannot use a standard NHS one.
You then take this test kit with you, perform the test within 72 hours of arrival, and then upload the result to the providers website. You are then sent a negative certificate, and this is thoroughly checked at the overseas check in desk along with proof you have completed the UK Government pax locator form.

[Downwind_Left]

Sorry that's not accurate.

Your day 2 test after landing back into the UK has to be a government approved one, and the reference added to your locator form before you fly. No requirement to buy an expensive test and take it with you, just research and make sure you can access one where you are... it's likely to be free or much cheaper in your destination.

Your pre-return lateral flow test can be done by anyone, mine was a free one done at the airport before I flew home.

[Vokes55]

Yeehaw22

On the contrary, government debt is very different to private debt. No government (except ours maybe…) will let a company collapse due to failure to repay loans to them if it was a company that had a strong balance sheet pre-covid, took mitigations to decrease the impact of Covid as much as possible, and has strong forward bookings for the future. Europe (and Trump, to give credit where due) came forward fairly early on saying that they’ll help the airlines as it’s not their fault. The terms of the debt will be very loose, this isn’t a Thomas Cook-esque situation.

[whatdoesthisbuttondo]

Yeehaww22

Apologies if my post was insensitive, I was obviously speaking from a pilot’s pov but my view is also reflected in the cabin crew I work with at LGW also, I’m aware not everyone in the business has been so lucky.

Our pilots union (who have a great and mutually beneficial relationship with management) right at the beginning was very proactive and negotiated a big pay drop for all of us to avoid any redundancy, with a staged increase as the months, and work built up again, we’ve now moved up to 90% of our basic pay but that’s only just happened really. This was done long before other airlines started looking at redundancies.

The advantage TUI has is also that all our passengers are holiday passengers which unlike business travel hasn’t been replaced by zoom and teams meetings, plus the company has been great in coming up with and providing the popular testing packages.

I’m sorry to hear that you or others may be feeling a very different experience at the moment and hopefully that will improve soon.

[Jonty]

The German government had to get special permission from the EU to rescue TUI. I wouldnt be so sure they will be allowed to refinance those loans forever. Plus, they are on commercial terms, so €10bn of debt gives an awfully high interest payment. Nearly €500m a year apparently. And that’s due before they pay for their aircraft, pay their crews ect. That’s an awful lot of money to find, and you still haven’t paid down the capital.
The only way out is to sell some of the family silver to pay down the debt.
Sound familiar?

[double-oscar]

Pre-pandemic TUI was making a substantial profit and paying its shareholders about 400 million euros in dividends and servicing all its debt. Dividends have been suspended until the debt has been paid down. Assuming the world returns to some sort of normal the interest payments won’t be a problem. Furthermore, there is no debt due to be paid back until 2024. This is not like Thomas Cook who were just running flat out to stand still. However, if the world doesn’t return to normal all airline and travel companies will be in the same boat, trying to survive and waiting for better times.

[Jonty]

Thomas Cook didn’t start out running flat out to stand still. Although that’s where they ended up.

They started out by having so much debt that they couldn’t invest in the product. They were up against competitors who were cheaper, leaner, fitter, and nowhere near as highly leveraged. Because they couldn’t invest, the product couldn’t keep up with their competitors, slowly customers went else where, slowly the product got worse and the debt never went away.

It took Thomas cook about 10 years to succumb to their debts. It will be about the same for TUI.

[whatdoesthisbuttondo]

Jonty you seem a bit negative about TUI? Posting negatively about their recruitment and deal for ex Thomas cook new joiners and now on this thread all about TUIs long term chances. Sounds like you’ve got an axe to grind, which is fair enough but it’s a bit unfair to be trying to stoke up fear and negativity about another company, especially during a pandemic.

TUI have been a great employer during the pandemic and their outlook is better than most U.K. airlines,

TUI even kept on all the ex Thomas cook pilots that you were saying got such a poor deal when they joined. I’ve done a few courses with some of them during the pandemic and they all seem VERY happy they came to TUI. Many of them haven’t even done revenue flights for TUI and are still being kept on and paid. Not many other airlines would have done that.

[double-oscar]

Well it is positive you think that TUI will be around in ten years. The problem with Thomas Cook was that it’s foundations were built on shifting sand. It’s merger with MyTravel brought with it a lot of unsound businesses which MyTravel had bought using debt to pay for them. It was then difficult to integrate these into the overall business and because any profit went into servicing the debt the company couldn’t afford to invest to transform the business. Also, it suited some of the Thomas Cook investors to let the company collapse as they could pick up the assets they really wanted at a knockdown price and free of debt. TUI is in a much better position and has a much more focussed business plan. Even with Covid it is continuing to invest in its business. I personally think that, if it can get through the pandemic, it will be a much more profitable company than it was before with a bright future.

[Jonty]

whatdoesthisbuttondo

Sounds like you should start a "fanboy" thread, where we can post nothing but "positive vibes" about TUI. A "safe space" away from real life.

[whatdoesthisbuttondo]

Maybe, but it seems unfair when an ex Thomas cook pilot who went to jet2 instead of TUI after Thomas Cook unfortunately went bust (for whatever reason) should be a bit more open when you’re now bad mouthing TUI and spreading negative rumours about the company,

if you just say you’re having a go because you didn’t want to work for us in TUI or didn’t get in, then that’s great.

Anyway, hopefully things are good at jet2!

[Jonty]

double-oscar

I don't think there's a question mark over it getting through the pandemic. Its just what state it will be in when this is all over

As for comparisons with Thomas Cook, When Thomas Cook merged with MyTravel it was in a crash rich position. Its future seemed assured. Within 12 years it had gone bust. Those solid foundations can turn to sand very quickly. At the end of the day TUIs problem is the same as Thomas Cooks, debt. How its managed and repaid will be the difference between the two.

All Airlines and travel companies have had to take on huge debts to see themselves through this. IAG owe billions, same with easyJet, Virgin are touch and go, Jet2 have got issues, Wizz seem ok, Ryan air seem ok as well. The last 2 have a very low cost base. Air France and Lufthansa will not be allowed to go under, Alitalia should have gone bust about 10 years ago. Its going to be a very interesting few years seeing how this all plays out.

One question that plays on my mind, post Brexit, If TUI get another bailout from the German government, would that fall foul of anti-competition laws here in the UK? And if so, what consequences would that have for TUI UK?

[Jonty]

whatdoesthisbuttondo

Spreading rumours? Which rumours were those? There was a fact based news report about restructuring. Then there's an open discussion (hardly "having a go") about the level of debt TUI have taken on and what that means for the company. None of that is "rumour".

Im sorry you feel that my input is stoking negativity, but having worked in charter for over 20 years, and worked for a highly leveraged company that eventually collapsed, its a topic of which I have some experience. I would suggest, if this topic of discussion makes you uncomfortable, you ask yourself why that would be so?

I do have a bee in my bonnet about how TUI took advantage of exTCX crews after Thomas Cook collapsed, but I suppose you could argue they redeemed themselves by keeping them on.

As for Jet2, we can have a discussion about their problems on the Jet2 thread if you like?

[whatdoesthisbuttondo]

those rumours.

Glad it’s working out for you at jet2, although maybe time to move on regarding your anti TUI posting?

Your ex Thomas cook mates (the ones I’ve spoken to) all seem very happy at TUI. You constantly talking down their new employer won’t help them them much will it?

[double-oscar]

Jonty

The two German loans were made post Brexit and did not raise any concerns here in the UK. Also they were loans agreed on commercial terms and not technically a bailout as given to the likes of Alitalia where there was little if any chance of getting your money back.

[commit aviation]

One unknown element for all airlines with high levels of debt is what happens to interest rates in the future. As long as the global rates remain low and assuming business returns quickly they can pay down the debt and be fine.
If rates climb and business is slower to return then some may face the prospect of refinancing at higher rates. That's when things become challenging.
TUI have a wide base of operations across Europe so I imagine they will be better placed than some others. Time will tell but I wish them all well.

[Jonty]

they were pre the end of the transition phase though we’re they not?

it probably has no impact, it’s was just an idling thought.

[Jonty]

whatdoesthisbuttondo

You seen very keen to shutdown any discussion that you dislike don’t you? I wonder why that is? I can imagine you’re a real charmer to fly with!
Rather than just accusing people of “doing down TUI” why don’t you post the opposite point?
And as for exTCX pilots being happy, in the middle of a global pandemic, they will be, they aren’t idiots. Being exTCX they will be quite a bit more switched on and worldly wise given what they have been through.

[Vokes55]

whatdoesthisbuttondo

Don’t rise to it. This is the same user who claimed Thomas Cook would soon be debt free, a month before their collapse. The reason for the axe to grind is fairly obvious too.

[Jonty]

You guys REALLY don’t like actually discussing TUI do you? It’s quite amazing, in a thread about TUI, that someone discussing the single biggest issue facing the company suddenly has an “axe to grind” It says a lot about your confidence in the company.

Now if either of you has any point to make that’s relevant to the topic please carry on, otherwise stop trying to shoot the messenger, it makes you look desperate.

As for the Thomas Cook comment, that was said in the context of the refinancing that Thomas Cook was trying to undertake. If it had worked Thomas Cooks historic debt would have effectively been wiped out. Unfortunately for all concerned it didn’t work out.

[Vokes55]

A quick look through your posts suggests there’s no “suddenly” about it.

[Albert Hall]

As someone with no axe to grind on any side of this debate - having never worked for TCX, TUI or Jet2 - I'll contribute to say I think Jonty's comments appear deliberately poisonous.

The Thomas Cook infrastructure was cobbled together through mergers and acquisitions over several years. The product - particularly in resort accommodation but you could possibly apply the same to the aircraft fleet - never could have the investment to reach the base standard that TUI has today. If TUI is unable to maintain the same level of investment for 2/3/4 years to repay debt, its product will by and large remain above that which TC was consistently unable to reach. That's before you get onto the discussion about cruise strategy where TC had nothing in-house but was a retailer for others but TUI has a big asset base through TUI and Marella which keeps operating margin in house.

If TUI embarks on an acquisition spree (although it's difficult to see what would be left to buy!) and saddles itself with further debt, the jury would be out on its long-term future. If they stick to doing what they're doing and develop organically after the pandemic, I see every reason why they should still be here. There is a market for what they're selling, and one that isn't exclusively defined by price - unlike the position into which TC steered itself over a few years before its demise.

[hec7or]

One way of looking at this airline vs airline rivalry would be to ask where the benchmark Ts and Cs will end up if those at TUI are in any way reduced?

[Vokes55]

Nobody with a mental age over 12 is looking at an airline vs airline rivalry. The majority of pilots across the industry want all companies to survive and all pre-Covid T&Cs to be restored and/or maintained.

[Smudge's Lot]

G-TUIK to join the SE- reg very soon on transfer to the Nordic Airline

[OltonPete]

What is the current status with the 757's as much was made that they had been withdrawn and up pops BHX-AGP tomorrow listed as a 757 positioning up from Gatwick to operate in the morning.

The other two are with STS at BHX, I believe one in the hangar and one outside but assume these two are decommissioned from active service if another is being brought in to operate?

[Buster the Bear]

TUI Airways Fleet List (http://www.jethros.org.uk/fleets/fleet_listings/tui_airways.htm)

[P330]

Seems strange reusing a 757 when they have so many 738s. Did they ever use any of the used 738s they acquired and if not, do they intend to?

[OltonPete]

The flight was originally down as a 788 so I assume the pax load was between 189 and 221 and maybe crewing was also an issue with the 788 and 789 sitting on the ground at BHX.

The 788 arrived in the night from Paphos and is due out to Istanbul later for a F1 charter tomorrow so I presume that this is part of the reason why it hasn't been used.

The BHX 73H's and Max's are fairly busy today albeit only a flight each by the look of it.

[737James]

There has been a couple of strange 757 movements at BHX in the last week, One operated a PFO rotation last Sunday and now one has operated the AGP service today, while the last two days PFO flights have been upgraded from the planned 738 to 787s but I understand the loads have all been in 738 range so maybe its Cargo related with my flight back from LCA to BHX last week having a large amount of fresh limes in the forward hold

[LiamNCL]

TUI Short of aircraft at the moment ? Seem to be alot of subs today TUIfly D-ATUO/ Belgiums OO-MAX, Privilege A321 & Enter Air 737.

[Yeehaw22]

Plenty of aircraft. Just not enough cabin crew.

[Downwind_Left]

A general industry problem. Many cabin crew found new jobs during COVID and have no interest in returning. But they also may have taken the furlough cash while working their second jobs.

When recalled to fly, their employers have been shocked to receive a resignation in response.

So now most UK airlines scrabbling to crew flights.

[Yeehaw22]

This is a problem of their own making. They have made too many cabin crew redundant.

[737James]

LiamNCL

Not sure that lack of CC was the reason for all the Sub Charters yesterday as it was the end of the Summer season there was always going to be a number of ferry flights so it made sense to use some ad hoc carriers based in mainland Europe to cover some of the the flights with the Belgian OO-MAX operating a revenue flight out to Tenerife for Tui Belgium as start of their winter programme then operated the last of the Tui summer flights back to EMA.

I am told it was also complicated more by Red tape ,due to some crew being on a contract only until 31/10 that created issues with liability insurance when the flight arrived back in the UK past Midnight.

Jet2 did it in a slightly different way with doing a few double drops in the UK and Greek Islands along with aircraft swaps down route

[LiamNCL]

I noticed G-TAWW flew to Toronto too so the leasing to Sunwings back this winter ? Ironic some of the fleet still carry branding 2 year since the last stint.

[AirUK]

What’s ‘ironic’ about that?

[ROC10]

I assume because G-TAWW isn't one of the ones wearing the Sunwing livery.

Regarding the charters, I was very surprised at the use of Privilege Style from BHX given that some TUI aircraft were sitting idle but either of the matters above could possibly explain that.

D-ATUO (TUI Germany 738) flew HAJ*-ABZ-TFS-ABZ-*HER-HAJ (*ferry) over the past couple of days which was rather odd as two ferry flights were still needed but, again, could be due to the above.

[Vokes55]

What's odd about that? Every single TUI branded flight from anywhere in Europe to Heraklion over the past 8 days would've been a ferry, it's the end of the season. Operating ABZ-HER-HAJ saved an extra ferry sector and allowed them to reposition the crew back to Germany efficiently. Not odd at all.

As for which aircraft go to Sunwing, this will be dictated largely by maintenance cycles and will be aircraft that don't need to visit a hangar for 3-4 months. Maintenance is obviously pre-planned months in advance, so they'll know which aircraft are going and plan accordingly. Whilst stickers can be added and removed fairly quickly and cheaply, repainting a whole tail costs money and isn't a priority during 18 months of little income.

[Rt Hon Jim Hacker MP]

Downwind_Left

Yep. I'm just surprised that any employer would be shocked. Entirely predictable given the pay and working conditions. There are plenty of pilots in the same boat.

[737James]

ROC10

I was speaking to a member of BHX crew today about the Privilege Style charter on Sunday they confirmed this one was caused by a lack of BHX cabin crew as they operated AYT,AGP,PFO,ACE and LPA on 787s over the weekend plus the LH routes started up as well so had a set of crew down route in MBJ and needed a set of crew for Monday am CUN so simply didn’t have enough crew

[caaardiff]

G-OBYG en route to St Athan. Is that leaving TUI now or in for maintenance?

[jethro15]

Maintenance prior to leaving the fleet 25 Nov.

[chaps1954]

Glad I made the effort to watch its departure

[azz767]

Are any 767’s going to see next year? I know G-OBYH has been at BHX for weeks now without moving but what about YF/YK?

[Big Tudor]

Shame. Travelled back from Indonesia on YG at the end of the Hadj. Seems like a lifetime ago now.

[ROC10]

YK has just gone to Stockholm so is clearly going to be spending some time (perhaps the whole winter?) flying for TUI fly Nordic. That just leaves YF which last flew on Monday. Unsurprisingly it doesn’t look like many of the winter flights will justify the use of a 767 which is usually the case even pre-Covid.

[LiamNCL]

Left Stockholm this afternoon as TOM925P last tracked heading east over Russia so that maybe gone too.

[LAX2000]

Are any short haul routes planned to be operated by 787's for Summer 22, previously it was shown in the booking stage but this feature seems to have been removed.

Particularly interested in Gatwick to Paphos flights

[Matt995]

it might be worth you checking google flights, the TUI aircraft types are now showing, but of course all subject to change!

Birmingham is currently showing 2 787s based for summer 2022, 1 presumably a 789 will do long haul every day, the other a 788, is scheduled to operate short haul flights Monday-Saturday, and a long haul flight on Sunday. Pretty certain Gatwick and Manchester will also have short haul flying on the dreamliners.

[dmouse88]

Where is G-TUMA last seen going to Brussels 7/11, has it joined TUI fly fleet. I also note we are only operating 2 767-3 YF and YK are YG and YH wfu.

[hdsfarrar]

Hi all,

Just booked a holiday for July 2022, both flights TOM4356 (LGW-FUE), TOM4669 (FUE-LGW) are shown as being operated by TUI.
However the return flight 4669, is showing as being operated by a A321 and not a B737. Any idea who will be operating that flight?

Thanks

[pabely]

My guess EZY, TUI booking space with them on a few routes now.

[Vokes55]

Three ACMI A321s are going to be based at LGW, probably from the usual Latvian/Lithuanian suspects.

Subject to change, of course.

[pamann]

hdsfarrar

Does it specifically say A321 or are you going by the seat plan? Could it be that the 737-Max10 has been loaded into the system? The seating is probably similar 220-230 passengers I’m guessing?

[Vokes55]

It's an ACMI A321.

[BOHEuropean]

G-TUMA B737-8 MAX has been at BRU since 7th November, showing as "De-Registration" in progress on CAA G-INFO site; presumably off to Sweden/Germany/Belgium?

[hdsfarrar]

Yeah, it specifically says A321-220 in the TUI app, presumably A321, 220pax. as the B738, shows as B738-189

[davidjohnson6]

A321 routes - see this Tweet from theaeronetwork on 30-Nov - it has an image from GCMap.com showing all the routes.
I'm on a mobile device and can't see if the link appears or not, so apologies if it's truncated
https://mobile.twitter.com/theaeronetwork/status/1465784202956136448

[dmouse88]

BOHEuropean

Airframe back at Gatwick doing flt BY782 to SID today.

[P330]

Is there any difference on the TUI App between a 738 and a MAX8? So, if I am seeing 738-189 as type, does that denote one, the other or both?

Thanks

[ROC10]

Interesting article on a ‘close shave’ for TUI in September…

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/12/02/pilots-practice-lockdown-risking-passengers-lives/

[Banana Joe]

Paywalled.

[SWBKCB]

The horse's mouth

https://www.gov.uk/aaib-reports/aaib-special-bulletin-s2-slash-2021-on-boeing-737-8k5-g-fdzf

[hdsfarrar]

P330

Both have 189 seats, and the app can show both the normal 738 and the MAX, however it isnt reliable. I've had flights show as 738-189 and be operated by a MAX and vise versa. Hope this helps

[P330]

Thankyou. 👍

[daz211]

what app are you using ?
I find it so frustrating that all other airlines show A/C type but for some reason TUI’s flights never show they type of aircraft.
and don’t get me started on the lack of seats allocation at time of booking.

[P330]

The TUI app....

[GBYAJ]

daz211

A far cry from the Thomson days when the BY 767 flights were clearly marked in the Brochures with a * !!

[VickersVicount]

I remember that! One of my first flights was supposed to be a 732 and imagine delight when the old style sticker seating map for a 762 was displayed at check-in.

[Dorking]

I cam remember ringing Brittania ops in Luton to ask if the 762 was operating the route to Tenerife..The conversation was very helpful and they confirmed it for me....how times change...That was in 1986 mind
​​​​​​

[gaz2021]

Not sure if anyone can help with this is confusing, I noticed 2 of Tui`s Boeing 767 ( G-OBYG & G-OBYH ) Currently in St Athan OBYG EOL and OBYH freighter
conversion but am i right in thinking all 4 UK based 767`s are supposed to be retired by end of December 2021. I have also heard that 2x Boeing 767`s G`OBYF
& G`OBYK are having cabin refits? if that is the case then am i right in thinking these 2 will stay for another couple of years?

[HH6702]

Not sure if anyone can help with this is confusing, I noticed 2 of Tui`s Boeing 767 ( G-OBYG & G-OBYH ) Currently in St Athan OBYG EOL and OBYH freighter
conversion but am i right in thinking all 4 UK based 767`s are supposed to be retired by end of December 2021. I have also heard that 2x Boeing 767`s G`OBYF
& G`OBYK are having cabin refits? if that is the case then am i right in thinking these 2 will stay for another couple of years?


there is problems with the 787’s so maybe

[azz767]

Not sure if anyone can help with this is confusing, I noticed 2 of Tui`s Boeing 767 ( G-OBYG & G-OBYH ) Currently in St Athan OBYG EOL and OBYH freighter
conversion but am i right in thinking all 4 UK based 767`s are supposed to be retired by end of December 2021. I have also heard that 2x Boeing 767`s G`OBYF
& G`OBYK are having cabin refits? if that is the case then am i right in thinking these 2 will stay for another couple of years?

G-OBYF is parked up at MAN, I saw it when I departed on Friday. G-OBYK I believe is in China for maintenance. It briefly left the UK to Scandinavia then went onto China. If they are getting re-fits it would be interesting to see if they are used again for long haul if it’s to cover for 787 issues. They have been used only on short/mid haul flights in all economy since the 787’s arrived a few years back!

[P330]

What are the 787 issues?

Are these delivery delays due to the Boeing pause or problems with existing inventory?

[pabely]

I think the only problem with the TUI 787s is lack of work currently!

[OltonPete]

I think the only problem with the TUI 787s is lack of work currently!

Are you sure about that?

BHX-Cancun Friday was delayed 24 hours as no aircraft available. I assume the one at Luton and one that has been at Gatwick a while are on maintenance, it seems they have all been busy over the last few days between the UK & Scandinavia bases plus DHL tonight (789 just gone BHX-EMA and another due MAN-EMA).I suppose you could say not busy on pax flights but they do seem to be fairly busy considering the cruise work is nowhere near what it was.

Pete

[H44]

The 787s are flat out at the moment. Not helped by the -9 which was transferred to the Swedish AOC being taken out by a catering truck in Scandinavia.

[chaps1954]

G-OBYF is operating a MAN/TFS service today and has just departed MAN

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

G-OBYK has departed TPE as TOM988P and seems to have landed in the UAE.
Edit : Routing was TPE-DWC-MAN and is due home tonight.

[VickersVicount]

looks like a swathe of TUI cancellations pending…

[Vokes55]

looks like a swathe of TUI cancellations pending…

Why?



filler

[AirportPlanner1]

Why?



filler

With current news, new restrictions and demand falling off a cliff I cannot fathom why this might be the case…

[Vokes55]

What evidence do you have of "demand falling off a cliff"? Gatwick has just had it's busiest (in terms of flights and departing passenger numbers) Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday and Friday since February 2020, despite "current news" and "new restrictions". Even busier than a fairly restriction free October half term. Red list aside, long haul loads have been barely affected by any changes recently.

But how is that specifically relevant to TUI? Aside from Morocco, Goa and a few ski flights, some of which are being re-routed, TUI are operating to more or less everywhere they would be at this time of year.

[AirportPlanner1]

The issue is collapse in the last few days and inevitably of new restrictions here and elsewhere. Clearly Christmas travel is strong and largely will have been booked in advance. You then go on to say yourself…mostly a normal schedule apart from the places closed to us, which on Tui’s part is a substantial element of the ski programme and part of the big Spanish market due to the unvaccinated not being able to waltz in anymore.

[daz211]

Its harder to see with TUI most other Airlines allow you to see the seat plan for flights without booking and you can get a feel for passenger loads. I’m flying out to ACE from MAN in January but I’m not holding my breath, I can see my seat plan for both sectors and it’s not looking good at all, when I got to the date I could book my seats on the Aircraft I counted 107 booked seats on my outbound and 124 on my return but looking over the past week that has dropped to around 50 and 80 respectively.
im not saying this is only a TUI issue as I know people are changing their plans and postponing their holidays until later in the year.

[Vokes55]

The issue is collapse in the last few days and inevitably of new restrictions here and elsewhere. Clearly Christmas travel is strong and largely will have been booked in advance. You then go on to say yourself…mostly a normal schedule apart from the places closed to us, which on Tui’s part is a substantial element of the ski programme and part of the big Spanish market due to the unvaccinated not being able to waltz in anymore.

Which new restrictions? The only country that’s imposed new restrictions on travel is France, and we all know that’s nothing to do with Covid. Additional testing hits the short break market but has little to no impact on long haul or ski/Lapland, and the loads across all airlines reflect that. The removal of the red list takes away any nervousness attached to long haul.

Not saying it’s ideal, but not predicting “swathes of cancellations” and particularly not specifically for TUI.

[davidjohnson6]

I'm wondering if Crystal Ski, TUI's ski arm, might have significantly reduced loads for passengers flying to French and Andorran ski resorts - will TUI be tempted to consolidate some flights ?

[inOban]

The fact that the UK doesn't have a red list doesn't stop other countries putting the UK on their red list, and this will discourage people booking holidays which may not happen.

[Vokes55]

The fact that the UK doesn't have a red list doesn't stop other countries putting the UK on their red list, and this will discourage people booking holidays which may not happen.

And which countries have done that in the past week or so, apart from France?

[Vokes55]

I'm wondering if Crystal Ski, TUI's ski arm, might have significantly reduced loads for passengers flying to French and Andorran ski resorts - will TUI be tempted to consolidate some flights ?

Andorra flights are being changed to Barcelona. Loads to French resorts will be reduced to zero because they’re not allowed in. The benefit of the package holiday though is that they can change to a destination that is letting them in fairly painlessly.

[ATNotts]

And which countries have done that in the past week or so, apart from France?
Israel for one.

[The Flying Stool]

Israel for one.
Well known for its Ski resorts.

[Vokes55]

Yeah, I’m not sure Israel, a country with consistently one of the tightest borders throughout the whole pandemic, banning foreign visitors is going to put people off booking holidays to Cancun or Jamaica.

[ATNotts]

Well known for its Ski resorts.
Ski resorts weren't referenced in the post to which I was responding.

[davidjohnson6]

It should be rembered that TUI is in the business of selling dreams and is deeply dependent on consumer confidence to make advance bookings. Time from booking to flight has fallen significantly since March last year - people are not booking 6 months ahead like they used to. This is not Tesco where the gap between handing over cash and getting a receipt to be able to take food out the shop is achieved in 30 seconds with very little to go wrong

The fact that France has told UK residents 2 days ago they are not welcome, and that the UK is prone to introducing a red list at such short notice that finding a flight home without quarantine is very very expensive will scare a lot of people from booking flights. Furthermore, if you can't get a negative test no later than 2 days before your flight home means you can't fly home. Google FUD - Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt. Noises about Plan C in the news, possibly being announced in the next few days will not help consumer confidence

I am not booking anything unless a) I can afford to lose the money, and b) I fly home no later than 2 days after I left the UK so I can definitely get a negative test before leaving the UK.

New and last minute flight booking for a week's package holiday on long haul have presumably taken a bit of a tumble. This *will* have implications for the number of flights that TUI and other airlines operate.... unless of course TUI wants to burn cash even faster than they are already - £5m per day of losses was the last figure I saw

[Cuillin Hills]

Spain insisting on all over-12s being double vaccinated has meant a large number of families not able to travel to Spain, as a family, and delaying or cancelling their break over the Christmas and New Year period.

[daz211]

Jet2 have started combining flights due to passenger loads.
Todays STN-ACE routed STN-FUE-ACE / FUE-ACE-STN so loads must be very low on all winters sun flights inc TUI.

[BHX5DME]

Jet2 have started combining flights due to passenger loads.
Todays STN-ACE routed STN-FUE-ACE / FUE-ACE-STN so loads must be very low on all winters sun flights inc TUI.
BHX ACE & FUE were also combined today, I would expect a lot more of this after Christmas and into the New Year

[daz211]

Sorry does anyone know how I can see seat plans / aircraft type for TUI flights.
Im sure someone on here said you can on the TUI app but I have tried that with no luck.

[Smudge's Lot]

Can we stick to TUI news please?

[dmouse88]

Sorry does anyone know how I can see seat plans / aircraft type for TUI flights.
Im sure someone on here said you can on the TUI app but I have tried that with no luck.
If you know the flight number go to Flightmapper.net use TOM flight number it should show you itenary and airframe type.

[daz211]

If you know the flight number go to Flightmapper.net use TOM flight number it should show you itenary and airframe type.
thank you very helpful ☝️