TUI airways-2

[Sotonsean]

Everyone says this until next year.
When that airline ‘you’ll never fly with’ just happens to be cheaper.

I say the same thing everytime I fly Ryanair but I've flown with the airline over 200 times. Remarks like "I won't fly with that airline again", just because of a cancelled flight doesn't really work at the end of the day.

My preference will always be British Airways and I've had cancelled flights with them but I still remain loyal to the airline. But if there is a far cheaper flight I will always take that option first regardless of previous issues with that said airline.

Once a year traveller's are always the hardest to please and in the majority of cases the hardest to deal with 😉

[chaps1954]

Parman my friend has not flown with TUI now for 3 years and doesn`t even compare prices now

[pamann]

Parman my friend has not flown with TUI now for 3 years and doesn`t even compare prices now

Thats all good and well until they want to go somewhere where ‘that airline we’ll never fly with’ has the monopoly on a route. I’ve heard these flippant comments so many times through the years. Whilst there may be the odd case, the vast majority of people can’t even remember who they flew with last year when they had that ‘bad experience’ going on holiday. Price wins over the masses in the holiday business. And poor experience is quickly forgotten to save a buck or two.

[vectisman]

Personally I feel that some of the comments made here about less frequent fliers are rather patronising.

[SWBKCB]

Standard Pprune SOP

[chaps1954]

Not sure if that was aimed at my friend who takes 3 holidays a year.

[pamann]

Aka Reality.

[chaps1954]

All depends on work doesn`t it

[flybar]

Despite my username I have no connection to Tui - I have flown three times this Summer, twice with Jet2 and once with Tui (sadly with the experience of a shed of a Sunwing a/c interior). My Tui flight was delayed 90 mins (no big deal). I will frankly now always pick Jet2 over Tui as my confidence in them handling things right when things go wrong is because of the sheer number of their own people they have at U.K. airports.

I also believe throughout my dealings with them they have a real strong customer service culture embedded, something I sadly believe Tui (not just the airline) have lost and it takes time to rebuild that culture.

Just flown Freebird on behalf of Tui from LBA to DLM return. Should have read trustpilot reviews before I booked. If Tui think this is a suitable operator to use then no surprise others were not happy.
Basic to the extreme! Back to Jet2!

[737James]

Just flown Freebird on behalf of Tui from LBA to DLM return. Should have read trustpilot reviews before I booked. If Tui think this is a suitable operator to use then no surprise others were not happy.
Basic to the extreme! Back to Jet2!

I have been hearing similar about GetJet from Lithuania operating 14 flights a week so if full 2,646 passengers a week from Birmingham.

Reports of broken seats and wall panels, overhead bins broken and to top it off 15-20 passengers a flight not getting they’re pre- booked and paid for extra space seats . Also hear from staff crew late at turning up causing delays. The only good thing is Tui are doing the ramp maintenance for them to keep them airworthy.

Yet Tui seem quite happy to keep using these 3rd party airlines even more strange when Tui have their own 738s sitting on the apron serviceable but not in use

[SJL26779]

Hi,

I've noticed that SE-RFZ is currently still in Cancun with a delay of over 24 hours as it was due back this morning, whilst G-TUIO departed Manchester this morning, diverted to SNN, returned to MAN and is now en route to CUN again but 9 hours late.

Does anyone have any info on the reasons please?

Thanks
Steven

[Matt995]

I have been hearing similar about GetJet from Lithuania operating 14 flights a week so if full 2,646 passengers a week from Birmingham.

Reports of broken seats and wall panels, overhead bins broken and to top it off 15-20 passengers a flight not getting they’re pre- booked and paid for extra space seats . Also hear from staff crew late at turning up causing delays. The only good thing is Tui are doing the ramp maintenance for them to keep them airworthy.

Yet Tui seem quite happy to keep using these 3rd party airlines even more strange when Tui have their own 738s sitting on the apron serviceable but not in use

GetJet being used at Birmingham I believe due to lack of TUI flight crew or cabin crew for their own 737's!

[Charley B]

Gatwick have had Air Tanker 330 appear here for a few days ,and a Priviledge Style 777 ..they must be short of planes or crew here too ..don’t seem to be using Wamos this year as yet x

[Cazza_fly]

Gatwick have had Air Tanker 330 appear here for a few days ,and a Priviledge Style 777 ..they must be short of planes or crew here too ..don’t seem to be using Wamos this year as yet x

They've already had Wamos this year a few times ! The 787 technical reliability is nothing short of a joke !

[SWBKCB]

GetJet being used at Birmingham I believe due to lack of TUI flight crew or cabin crew for their own 737's!

Maybe they should do what BA and others do and just cancel the flights they can't crew.

[Charley B]

They've already had Wamos this year a few times ! The 787 technical reliability is nothing short of a joke !

Enjoying seeing the heavies covering for them,yes it seems a right mess their 787 operations …
Last year there were multiple Wamos here ,they seem to be shunting 787 between bases all the time ,always bad delays as crews are going out of hours when leaving here so late
is Air Tanker out of interest ,just their pilots and Tui cabin crew or is it Air Tanker complete crew ?

[Cazza_fly]

Enjoying seeing the heavies covering for them,yes it seems a right mess their 787 operations …
Last year there were multiple Wamos here ,they seem to be shunting 787 between bases all the time ,always bad delays as crews are going out of hours when leaving here so late
is Air Tanker out of interest ,just their pilots and Tui cabin crew or is it Air Tanker complete crew ?

Its Air Tanker entire crew. Usually there will be 2 - 4 TUI rep crew onboard, but these are short term lease in flights to cover the shocking 787 reliability.

[H44]

Hi,

I've noticed that SE-RFZ is currently still in Cancun with a delay of over 24 hours as it was due back this morning, whilst G-TUIO departed Manchester this morning, diverted to SNN, returned to MAN and is now en route to CUN again but 9 hours late.

Does anyone have any info on the reasons please?

Thanks
Steven

The Swedish 787 had a tech issue with a fuel filter fault I believe. G-TUIO had to divert into Shannon with a sick passenger. These things happen.

I can’t believe the glee that some posters seem to find in an airline having issues but trying it’s best for its passengers. What would all you armchair CEO’s do, have a whole fleet of spare 787’s sat around, just in case 🙄

[P330]

Not sure I have seen any glee?

Just people stating facts, giving opinions and asking questions.

[JonnyH]

Gatwick have had Air Tanker 330 appear here for a few days ,and a Priviledge Style 777 ..they must be short of planes or crew here too ..don’t seem to be using Wamos this year as yet x

Unlikely to be many Wamos, if any, this year. They’ve got some deals including a few planes with Saudia so unlikely we will see much of them for the foreseeable future.

[SJL26779]

The Swedish 787 had a tech issue with a fuel filter fault I believe. G-TUIO had to divert into Shannon with a sick passenger. These things happen.

I can’t believe the glee that some posters seem to find in an airline having issues but trying it’s best for its passengers. What would all you armchair CEO’s do, have a whole fleet of spare 787’s sat around, just in case 🙄

Thanks for the update. Hope the pax is ok

[Rivet Joint]

The Swedish 787 had a tech issue with a fuel filter fault I believe. G-TUIO had to divert into Shannon with a sick passenger. These things happen.

I can’t believe the glee that some posters seem to find in an airline having issues but trying it’s best for its passengers. What would all you armchair CEO’s do, have a whole fleet of spare 787’s sat around, just in case 🙄

they could have taken the remaining 787 that was sat waiting in the desert to be delivered? Odd that they would cancel taking that plane when order books are full for many years to come.

[Yeehaw22]

the shocking 787 reliability.

Something you clearly know very very little about

[JonnyH]

Something you clearly know very very little about

You’re probably right that he doesn’t. BUT, and it’s a very big BUT, even at a fairly young age TUI’s 787s are getting a little long in the tooth in terms of some of the issues they are having and on board they’re not that great now either. This is only my opinion.

On another topic, and someone mentioned it above, what on earth are they thinking leaving TUIP in the desert when they’ve got all of this going on. I don’t know the reason, and I doubt many others do either, but it must be a very compelling reason.

[Charley B]

Its Air Tanker entire crew. Usually there will be 2 - 4 TUI rep crew onboard, but these are short term lease in flights to cover the shocking 787 reliability.


Thank you x

[Charley B]

Unlikely to be many Wamos, if any, this year. They’ve got some deals including a few planes with Saudia so unlikely we will see much of them for the foreseeable future.

Aww..loved seeing their 330s here ,will have to enjoy the 33Os that are here and the Air Tanker ..I did read that some were covering Haaj flights but thought they may have finished x

[Yeehaw22]

You’re probably right that he doesn’t. BUT, and it’s a very big BUT, even at a fairly young age TUI’s 787s are getting a little long in the tooth in terms of some of the issues they are having and on board they’re not that great now either. This is only my opinion.

On another topic, and someone mentioned it above, what on earth are they thinking leaving TUIP in the desert when they’ve got all of this going on. I don’t know the reason, and I doubt many others do either, but it must be a very compelling reason.

Yes you are correct they are tired. They desperately need a cabin overhaul and a paint (Although I think the issue with paint is there's few 787 approved paint sheds that have slots). But working them Day in day out. Yes they are a lot of work maintenance wise, but the TDR is way up there.

A lot of the problems TUI are facing are of their own doing, making the same mistakes as last year. Too tight a schedule, not enough downtime slots, maintenance normally done in winter is still being caught up with, not enough manpower, using the same absolute load of crap 3rd parties etc etc. The list could go on and on. Out on the front line it's like groundhog Day year.

Being the lumbering conservative company it is they'll probably realise their mistakes in a couple of years or so and dress it up in some fancy presentation as unforeseen circumstances.

The decision to not take the 787 was due to a forecast downturn in long haul. I'd suspect that the people in the operational teams would kill to have another -9 spare slack in the schedule. Again a typically TUI short sighted decision.

[CW247]

I work for one of those "crap" third parties. Our aircraft are the worst in the industry. Often rejected by other airlines at the initial inspection stage. They come from the ass end of of the world with questionable maintenance histories only to be leased to TUI. Local engineering companies are only contracted to do the bare minimum, requiring a PO to be raised to even fix a seat. As such we fly aircraft with anywhere between 10 and 50 defects in the log.

[MANFAN]

Curious to know, how do the other TUI operations compare with their fleet? The UK is only the country within the TUI group to have a long haul operation? Is that correct?

[SWBKCB]

Curious to know, how do the other TUI operations compare with their fleet? The UK is only the country within the TUI group to have a long haul operation? Is that correct?

No - extensive programme out of AMS at least

[SJL26779]

No - extensive programme out of AMS at least
also Brussels has a long haul program too

[MANFAN]

also Brussels has a long haul program too

Ah yes, I had seen TUI 767’s at AMS last year, wasn’t aware of TUI in Belgium though.
Given that the UK arm has the biggest fleet overall, no surprise they are probably the worse performing in terms of technical issues etc.
But it’s a shame the Dreamliners are ageing so quick, both inside and out!

[Cazza_fly]

Ah yes, I had seen TUI 767’s at AMS last year, wasn’t aware of TUI in Belgium though.
Given that the UK arm has the biggest fleet overall, no surprise they are probably the worse performing in terms of technical issues etc.
But it’s a shame the Dreamliners are ageing so quick, both inside and out!

The internet is your friend... TUI fly Nordic have long haul in the winter and in the recent past TUI fly Germany has operated on a transferred UK 787.

[Cazza_fly]

Something you clearly know very very little about

How so. Please enlighten me, or are you ignorant to the facts and the current issues they are creating so far this summer season?

[Yeehaw22]

How so. Please enlighten me, or are you ignorant to the facts and the current issues they are creating so far this summer season?

I've answered that in subsequent posts. If you have all the info maybe you should share yourself instead of making comments without backing up with facts?

[ROC10]

The internet is your friend... TUI fly Nordic have long haul in the winter and in the recent past TUI fly Germany has operated on a transferred UK 787.

Could be wrong but I don’t think the German 787 ops ever happened. Think it was planned pre-Covid but the 787s never ended up transferring in the end.

[Yeehaw22]

Could be wrong but I don’t think the German 787 ops ever happened. Think it was planned pre-Covid but the 787s never ended up transferring in the end.

Correct it never happened. It's only the Germans that don't have long haul ops, for now anyway.

[Cazza_fly]

I've answered that in subsequent posts. If you have all the info maybe you should share yourself instead of making comments without backing up with facts?

So basically contradicting yourself then. :rolleyes:

[Yeehaw22]

So basically contradicting yourself then. :rolleyes:

My last reply to you as it's becoming clear you're simply just trolling.

I haven't contradicted anything if you actually read properly. You made the statement along the lines of 'technical reliability of the 787 is shocking'

I said that that is factually incorrect. Yes there are issues within the fleet. Many of which I listed which are contributing to the current issues. But how much is purely down to the actual Technical despatch reliability? In my opinion not very much. The vast majority is down to poor planning, scheduling and a lack of downtime to catch up with scheduled maintenance.

I'm all ears if you have some actual facts or stats to back up your claims but as you've repeatedly not posted these then I strongly suspect you don't have any?

[Rivet Joint]

Yes you are correct they are tired. They desperately need a cabin overhaul and a paint (Although I think the issue with paint is there's few 787 approved paint sheds that have slots). But working them Day in day out. Yes they are a lot of work maintenance wise, but the TDR is way up there.

A lot of the problems TUI are facing are of their own doing, making the same mistakes as last year. Too tight a schedule, not enough downtime slots, maintenance normally done in winter is still being caught up with, not enough manpower, using the same absolute load of crap 3rd parties etc etc. The list could go on and on. Out on the front line it's like groundhog Day year.

Being the lumbering conservative company it is they'll probably realise their mistakes in a couple of years or so and dress it up in some fancy presentation as unforeseen circumstances.

The decision to not take the 787 was due to a forecast downturn in long haul. I'd suspect that the people in the operational teams would kill to have another -9 spare slack in the schedule. Again a typically TUI short sighted decision.

I suspect they are going to be in trouble in the not to distant future. Other airlines can see the pent up demand and growth on the horizon and have been ordering new aircraft to modernise/grow their fleet. What are they replacing those 3 767s with that are leaving the fleet this year? They should be growing their fleet let alone losing 3 and not taking 1 787. TUI are stuffed now and I wouldn’t be surprised if Jet2 end up buying their UK business.

[ATNotts]

TUI are stuffed now and I wouldn’t be surprised if Jet2 end up buying their UK business.

They may well want to but the UK competition authorities aren't about to allow a virtual monopoly in the UK market!

[JonnyH]

G-VYGJ leased in for TUI for the remainder of S23? Looks like it’s in for a paint job.

[laviation]

Apparently in for maintenance at STS

[Robin757]

Forgive my ignorance but does TUI have a base in Newcastle? I do not think they do but I have just booked a Saturday flight to Verona next year and the flight departs at 6am! If so how many aircraft do they night stop there?

[ROC10]

Forgive my ignorance but does TUI have a base in Newcastle? I do not think they do but I have just booked a Saturday flight to Verona next year and the flight departs at 6am! If so how many aircraft do they night stop there?

They certainly do. 4 x 737s this year and possibly 5 next year? Along with a part-time 787 for long haul.

[JonnyH]

Apparently in for maintenance at STS

Yeah my apologies. Looks like could be a C check rather than going to TUI.

[LiamNCL]

Forgive my ignorance but does TUI have a base in Newcastle? I do not think they do but I have just booked a Saturday flight to Verona next year and the flight departs at 6am! If so how many aircraft do they night stop there?

Been a base here in some form for 60 years, Recently celebrated the milestone at NCL.

5x 738 next Summer + 787 6 days a week operating MLB CUN DLM AYT

[737James]

I have been told that Tui are hoping that some of the reliability of ACMI carriers will be less from tommorow (1st July) As they have the summer only crew that only work July until Mid September which should mean that they have to use less 3rd party carriers due to not having enough cabin crew

[ROC10]

I have been told that Tui are hoping that some of the reliability of ACMI carriers will be less from tommorow (1st July) As they have the summer only crew that only work July until Mid September which should mean that they have to use less 3rd party carriers due to not having enough cabin crew

If that’s true, surely they need to re-think that and have all their own crew in place by May/June at the latest?

[chinapattern]

If TUI do find themselves short of aircraft I’m wondering if they might look at consolidating some of there smaller bases into one? It’s already happened with long haul.

[737James]

If that’s true, surely they need to re-think that and have all their own crew in place by May/June at the latest?

From what I have heard that is the plan as will have more of their own aircraft as need to cover the Sunwing Gap and apart from some Turkey flights a lot less use of 3rd party aircraft and crew.

I think the seasonal cabin crew is something that Tui have done for a few years as there is some flights that don’t start until the end of June as they are just additional capacity uplift . It also suits some crew they can come in do the summer and then have winter off with kids or other employment.

I’ve seen one lady who runs her own Christmas party business that has returned and another who does Ice Curling semi pro. Also in previous years there has been crew that do peak summer in the air and winter in travel agents

[SJL26779]

First time I've seen a tui cancelled flight in some time.

328 pax to reaccommodate cant be easy

Edit: looks like this 767 flight has been combined onto 2 x 738 aircraft. G-TAWK and G-TAWN with an 18 hour delay.

[garry8g]

Edit: looks like this 767 flight has been combined onto 2 x 738 aircraft. G-TAWK and G-TAWN with an 18 hour delay.

It's G-TAWK & G-TAWX that are doing the recovery flights.

[SJL26779]

It's G-TAWK & G-TAWX that are doing the recovery flights.

apologies so it is.

[JonnyH]

Few local rags around Norwich reporting issues from DLM-NWI and RHO-NWI in the last week. The standard compo faces etc.

It’s like same sh*t different year with Sunwing!

[MANFAN]

Recently flew with TUI on a package holiday from Manchester to Zante for 9 days.
Great service onboard both flights, which were on time as well, no waiting for luggage when we returned home either. Nice hotel with helpful TUI rep and the app was very informative, before, during and after our holiday.
The only issue I had with the app was prior to the holiday, I was not able to enter our parties passport information, I had to log onto their website, not a big problem, but it would be more convenient to allow passengers to use the app for all functions.
Overall, I am seeing an improvement with TUI...I'm quick to complain when something goes wrong, but I am also willing to share positive experiences, which seem to be few and far between in the world of social media etc.

[alstaff]

Nice to see a favourable post manfan, We flew with tui in may and had a similar experience and have booked another trip with tui in September. :)

[5711N0205W]

I see quite a lot of criticism of Sunwing not sure it's really warranted, FR24 suggest they have 5 x 738's (out of a fleet of 8) augmenting the TUI summer schedule in the UK.

The schedule seems to have little slack and in theory for modern aircraft this should be achievable, obviously, airport, weather and ATC delays are out of control of the operator.

Ryanair also operate 738's though have many more (410) and are more likely to drop sectors and also potentially have enough airframes to augment if a unit is down for tech reasons.

I think it's unlikely that anyone else would do much better given the same conditions.

[JonnyH]

I see quite a lot of criticism of Sunwing not sure it's really warranted, FR24 suggest they have 5 x 738's (out of a fleet of 8) augmenting the TUI summer schedule in the UK.

The schedule seems to have little slack and in theory for modern aircraft this should be achievable, obviously, airport, weather and ATC delays are out of control of the operator.

Ryanair also operate 738's though have many more (410) and are more likely to drop sectors and also potentially have enough airframes to augment if a unit is down for tech reasons.

I think it's unlikely that anyone else would do much better given the same conditions.

But that’s just bad scheduling and little down time for maintenance inevitably is going to give you problems. You either A) have a decent number of spare aircraft (which TUI don’t) or B) you add a little more time in maintenance and build your scheduling around it (which TUI don’t).

I absolutely want TUI to do well and in most cases they’re cheaper than Jet2 but this summer and last summer’s issues is completely down to poor management and it’s their downfall is completely their own making.

If you don’t leave much time on the ground, you’re going to have tech issues.

[rog747]

My family just returned from a weeks super TUI Small & Friendly Hotel holiday in EFL Kefalonia flying most conveniently from our local at Hurn BOH.

They had a great time.
Nice flight times, bang on time, lovely Crew and resort staff, and my family liked it so much they have booked already for the same place, same time next year for 2 weeks.
They (and their grown up kids) are ardent old fans and loyal customers of BOH's Palmair/Bath Travel Holidays flying from Hurn for 30 years.

That being said,
The not so good -
Other pals of mine have had a nightmare with BOH TUI flights, both last summer and now this one,
with their return homeward flights inbound from RHO and TFS all being regularly diverted after 00.30 to Gatwick or Stansted.
This has been happening again this summer. The pax were NOT told until sitting on the plane. Then they were faced with a 3-4 hour coach drive back to Dorset.

On one occasion NO coaches had been laid on, this is despite TUI knowing at lunchtime that the delay of the early morning BOH-CFU-BOH rotation would then see the afternoon BOH-TFS-BOH being late back, and would likely be diverted - That is sloppy Operations and neglectful Handling.

They had to grab a Taxi (lucky for them at 4am at Gatwick, amongst 189 other rather unhappy Dorset punters) and the fare cost almost £300 (lucky the guy took Cards)
TUI whinged at first at paying the Taxi bill but did in the end - Likewise they at first refused the EU261 delay claim.

But on appealing TUI had to cough up, as this was an Operational delay, and not weather, nor ATC related.
Nor was the earlier BOH-CFU delay that then caused the later BOH-TFS flight delay and diversion -

It was a sick flight crew member for the CFU in the morning, then it seems a failure to take extra fuel to hold over CFU just for 15 minutes as a TS was forecasted at landing time, being around Noon local time.
Seems there was then a rush to get going at BOH once the new flight crew member arrived - Pax were already sitting on board.

All of the other 12 TUI flights arriving from the UK landed at CFU more or less on time that day, only the MAN 767 did a couple of pattern Holds over the sea for the Thunderstorm to quickly pass, at which time the BOH flight crew had already elected to fly direct to ATH; they did not even make an Approach to CFU.
That IMO is fraught with further drama had any issues at ATH held them up anymore, and then the crew (now on a 3 sector day having reported before 6am local) could have gone out of hours, causing even more chaos.

On the whole, most TUI holiday makers (including me) have a good time,
but there are more and more creeping bad events, and bad Press occurring, even here locally in the Bournemouth rag has picked up these diversion events and are making the Papers.
Not good, puts folk off booking, especially if it happens to them more than once.

The culprits are the Rhodes, Heraklion and Tenerife which are all scheduled to get back in to Hurn rather close to the airport's night time closure.

TUI customers pay a Premium for flying from their local airport, and to be debunked half way across England in the middle of the night is not cricket.

TUI are basing a second 737 at Hurn next summer, as is Ryanair -
Now we can only hope that the Airport can match the expansion with enough ground staff.

Can Hurn cope with all these extra flights >? (https://www.bournemouthecho.co.uk/news/23627864.bournemouth-airport-passengers-miss-ryanair-flight-venice/)

[5711N0205W]

But that’s just bad scheduling and little down time for maintenance inevitably is going to give you problems.

Which is my point really, Tui create the schedule, assign the assets and make provision for maintenance (in this case sub chartered Sunwing aircraft) so for people to directly blame Sunwing is disingenuous, reading this thread it doesn't matter who operates it the problems are the same.

[JonnyH]

Which is my point really, Tui create the schedule, assign the assets and make provision for maintenance (in this case sub chartered Sunwing aircraft) so for people to directly blame Sunwing is disingenuous, reading this thread it doesn't matter who operates it the problems are the same.

Perhaps. I’m not sure about this year but I know last year there was an issue with Sunwing pilots, however.

[USC]

We flew with TUI a few weeks ago, with the flight operated by a 3rd party charter operator. There were numerous issues with the flight including one which might be considered a safety issue - after complaining to TUI, their response was basically "not our aircraft, not our problem".

Full details now sent to the CAA...

[Yeehaw22]

Perhaps. I’m not sure about this year but I know last year there was an issue with Sunwing pilots, however.

They aren't much better this year. I'll confess to not knowing what the Canadian FTL are. But they are exceptionally keen to use the "out of hours" card for a multitude of reasons, again though, pretty dire planning to use them in the most northerly base if FTL are so tight. Also noticed a good few tech stops on the canaries flights and subsequent crew positioning to recover, not sure why when in an identical aircraft the TUI crew/aircraft manage it just fine.

[OliTom]

They aren't much better this year. I'll confess to not knowing what the Canadian FTL are. But they are exceptionally keen to use the "out of hours" card for a multitude of reasons, again though, pretty dire planning to use them in the most northerly base if FTL are so tight. Also noticed a good few tech stops on the canaries flights and subsequent crew positioning to recover, not sure why when in an identical aircraft the TUI crew/aircraft manage it just fine.

Because the Canadian crew have to operate to their SOP's = heavier passenger weights used in Canada are applied in the deployed ops.

[5711N0205W]

Because the Canadian crew have to operate to their SOP's = heavier passenger weights used in Canada are applied in the deployed ops.

That's interesting, 93.4Kg M / 78.1 KG F for Canada vs 76Kg overall (UK Air Navigation regs - Holiday charter over 30 seats) is probably around 2 - 3 Tonnes heavier than a UK registered aircraft at 189 (737-800) seats.

Does make the basing of Sunwing in Aberdeen a bit questionable on that basis.

[Yeehaw22]

Does make the basing of Sunwing in Aberdeen a bit questionable on that basis.

Exactly. And it's these kind of decisions that are being made company wide that are holding TUI back. It's incredibly frustrating and until senior management either wake up or are replaced, nothing will change.

[chinapattern]

Not sure what’s happening at BHX - the 789 that operated to Antalya this morning returned to Gatwick meaning a 789 has been subbed in from Manchester to operate this evenings Dalaman - that’s been heavily delayed and watching FR24 now looks to be doing a tour of Manchesters apron!

[speed13ird]

Exactly. And it's these kind of decisions that are being made company wide that are holding TUI back. It's incredibly frustrating and until senior management either wake up or are replaced, nothing will change.
Are they holding TUI back or propping TUI up?

[Jamie236]

Not sure what’s happening at BHX - the 789 that operated to Antalya this morning returned to Gatwick meaning a 789 has been subbed in from Manchester to operate this evenings Dalaman - that’s been heavily delayed and watching FR24 now looks to be doing a tour of Manchesters apron!

the Gatwick outbound went tech after departure and returned, so it must of been planned that the Birmingham outbound would of been going to Gatwick I guess.

The 789 man-pmi also had a 5 hour delay today

[MonarchOrBust]

I heard TUI used a SmartLynx aircraft to transport 22 pax from DUB to MAN. A 3 sector day for the crew with empty legs both sides out of/into LGW (that'll get the green lobby going!)
Already delayed by 3 days, they suffered another 3 hour delay at the hands of SmartLynx using ****ty aircraft.

[rog747]

I heard TUI used a SmartLynx aircraft to transport 22 pax from DUB to MAN. A 3 sector day for the crew with empty legs both sides from/out of LGW (that'll get the green lobby going!)
Already delayed by 3 days, they suffered another 3 hour delay at the hands of SmartLynx using sh***y aircraft.

Sad to read the increasing problems at TUI Airways.

The Main issues seem to be crewing, more and more technical issues, operational mess ups, plus many of the airport infrastructures still haven't caught up with manning levels, and getting a tight grip back on airport/airline handling since Covid.
Not directly TUI's fault, but it is TUI who pays the bills for that, so TUI should be much more proactive working with all of the airport ground agencies and kicking butts.
Plus, add into the mix, now more summer ATC disruptions in France etc.

The lack of aircraft for flying the customers of TUI's Package Holidays has a causation effect of so much costly ACMI leasing, 3rd party airlines, and frequent ad-hoc sub charter work;
The EU 261 delay costs also have to be factored in.

This clearly shows that by offering, then selling way too many package holidays that you do not have planes for, could possibly end up financially crippling for the Company.
Boeing's 737M delays are ongoing with TUI's order for the larger 230 seat Dash -10 version that is not even on the 'Line' yet, let alone Certified.
The 2 elderly 767-300's are mooted to go soon after this summer.
Thus, if the Sunwing deal also ends this summer, then Summer 2024 will see a huge shortage of uplift, much worse than this year;

More and more bad Press is not a nice read, and so when one thinks of the legacy of the quality of both Britannia Airways, and Air 2000 the current situation is rather sad.

On the whole TUI sells very good Package Holidays, but with Jet2 Holidays no longer snapping at their heels, but are now the UK's No.1, then WHO is at the TUI helm?
​​​​​​​

[JonnyH]

The concern for TUI, sooner rather than later, is going to be cash IMO. I read somewhere else (unsure if it’s true, but it’s definitely plausible) that the delays are costing TUI £750,000 per day with hotels and compensation for delays.

Obviously, some days won’t be as excessive as that but some could be worse.

[OltonPete]

Not sure what’s happening at BHX - the 789 that operated to Antalya this morning returned to Gatwick meaning a 789 has been subbed in from Manchester to operate this evenings Dalaman - that’s been heavily delayed and watching FR24 now looks to be doing a tour of Manchesters apron!

Totally mess and highlights the crewing issues but it seems to be resolving itself finally in respect of the Antalya and Dalaman

The 789 has left Gatwick for Antalya and hopefully will return to BHX around 26-28 hours late

The Dalaman I assume another victim of crew hours - The 789 landed Manchester 17:11 four hours late from Palma as mentioned above but got a seven hour turnaround leaving 23:57 for BHX by which time they knocked BHX-Dalaman on the head and it operated to Cancun instead this morning.

Ironically half the Dalaman flight left on a 737 at 12:24 today on a spare aircraft that had been parked for over a day so obviously again no crew available to operate this earlier, plus there were two 737's in early last night for night-stop but of course the flying time to Dalaman would have probably compromised todays schedule. The rest of the Dalaman pax are due out 22:20 around 26-27 hours late - how did they decide who goes first - did they draw lots?

Even more frustrating, as they cancelled the Thursday Melbourne for a few weeks a 789 sat at BHX doing nothing for 24 hours. I suppose s*d* law, have a spare when it is not required and no spare when one is required.

This thread keeps mentioning lack of aircraft but not really the case for BHX, quite the opposite with at least one aircraft parked up most days. I arrived Monday early evening and two were parked up on the 70's although one did operate a night flight a few hours later. Another 737 was on the ground 42 hours mid week with the schedule operating normally, definitely points to crew hours more that aircraft shortages.

Pete

[hec7or]

I guess all the extra expense for delays, overtime payments and ACMI will come from revenue which will be priced into the holiday packages.

[GBYAJ]

While it does look like a mess and the quality of Thomson & Britannia in particular has long gone (which I still find very sad 😔 ) there haven’t been any profit warnings from TUI and it’s share price is at least stable (up yesterday) so perhaps there’s nothing to see here??

while Smartlynx were rubbish when they operated for Thomas Cook, the downfall of TC was too much debt rather than dodgy 3rd party flying…..

[JonnyH]

I guess all the extra expense for delays, overtime payments and ACMI will come from revenue which will be priced into the holiday packages.

£6-7M per week? It could be worse at times as well.

I probably sound pessimistic but I genuinely want TUI to turn this around. Fingers crossed there will be some lessons learnt sooner rather than later.

[GBYAJ]

From May,

TUI GROUP – GUIDANCEWe re-confirm our expectations to increase underlying EBIT significantly for financial year 2023 supported by an encouraging booking momentum.

My thoughts:

If anything significant had happened since they would need to announce to the market.

if a recession hits, holidays will
be cut first and TUI won’t have too many aircraft to redeploy as they”ll just cut the third party flying so in 2024 won’t need 10+ aircraft.

[H44]

£6-7M per week? It could be worse at times as well.

I probably sound pessimistic but I genuinely want TUI to turn this around. Fingers crossed there will be some lessons learnt sooner rather than later.

That’s sounds about right. I believe compensation payments cost them about £50m last year. I know that sounds a lot but I think they accept it’s just one of their operational costs. I don’t have figures for easyJet but Jet2 in their recent results announcement also mentioned that they had paid £50m in comp delays for the past year.

On the shocking third party flying, I quite agree and hope TUI’s management either find better operators for their 3PF or better still take more in house next summer.

[hec7or]

Actually, if there is a downturn due to the cost of living crisis, then TUI are well placed to weather it since they haven't gone mad with aircraft acquisitions and can jettison the 3rd party ACMI and they haven't employed large numbers of ground staff who spend parts of the day idle once all the aircraft have departed.

[GBYAJ]

Actually, if there is a downturn due to the cost of living crisis, then TUI are well placed to weather it since they haven't gone mad with aircraft acquisitions and can jettison the 3rd party ACMI and they haven't employed large numbers of ground staff who spend parts of the day idle once all the aircraft have departed.


I refer to post 1328 above.

everyone’s gone silent when real facts and figures are quoted.

[ATNotts]

hec7or,

Perhaps you are on to something there, especially if its an accountant(s) that have the upper hand in Hannover.

Out of interest are TUI elsewhere in Europe leasing ACMI capacity to the same extent as TUI UK are? I know Transavia are doing a bit, and noticed yesterday that Correndon are using SkyUp.

[chinapattern]

Has any other airline taken this aircraft? Wondering if TUI might do a U-turn and take it. With the 767’s leaving they are going to be short of high capacity aircraft.

[Yeehaw22]

I refer to post 1328 above.

everyone’s gone silent when real facts and figures are quoted.

I don't see any real facts and figures? It's just conjecture
​
On the flip side what about if the recession/cost of living crisis has no real effect on demand, particularly for cost effective all inclusive packages? Look at this year prices up 20% and sales are up for both the big 2. Year on year s24 sales are already higher.

One of the big 2 will be in a prime position to capitalise and the other will be floundering playing catch up wondering where their market share has gone.
​​

​​​​​​

[cavokblues]

Has there been a recession in the last 40 years which hasn't resulted in a fall in demand for the industry?

[GBYAJ]

I don't see any real facts and figures? It's just conjecture
​
On the flip side what about if the recession/cost of living crisis has no real effect on demand, particularly for cost effective all inclusive packages? Look at this year prices up 20% and sales are up for both the big 2. Year on year s24 sales are already higher.

One of the big 2 will be in a prime position to capitalise and the other will be floundering playing catch up wondering where their market share has gone.
​​

​​​​​​

conjecture ;

an opinion or conclusion formed on the basis of incomplete information.


the information behind the statements is publicly available as you would expect for a listed company with a market cap of £2.88bn.


and interestingly Jet2’s maker cap on Friday was £2.5bn.

For completeness my last 3 package holidays have been Jet2 and I think they are much better than TUI in all respects but will be flying with TUI this summer. Just hoping to get a nice looking 737 rather than the grim
looking G-TUK* series! But this isn’t the same as the earlier posts suggesting that TUI are on the brink due to lots of positioning flights and third party flying. Thomson always used to do it they just appeared to have a better choice of partners in those days than TUI does now.

[VickersVicount]

conjecture ;

an opinion or conclusion formed on the basis of incomplete information.


the information behind the statements is publicly available as you would expect for a listed company with a market cap of £2.88bn.


and interestingly Jet2’s maker cap on Friday was £2.5bn.

For completeness my last 3 package holidays have been Jet2 and I think they are much better than TUI in all respects but will be flying with TUI this summer. Just hoping to get a nice looking 737 rather than the grim
looking G-TUK* series! But this isn’t the same as the earlier posts suggesting that TUI are on the brink due to lots of positioning flights and third party flying. Thomson always used to do it they just appeared to have a better choice of partners in those days than TUI does now.
What G-TUK* series?

[Flightrider]

Flew on two G-TUK* 737 aircraft recently and both were more than acceptable, with on-time flights both ways, minimal check-in queues and a good, friendly standard of service. I don't know what this looks like on a day where it goes wrong, but on the basis of recent personal experience, I'd have no qualms in booking them again.

[Cazza_fly]

What G-TUK* series?

There's 3x G-TUK* reg 737s in the UK fleet. All are ex fellow group airlines. The interiors are identical to the rest of the TUI 737 fleet. Yes fair enough, they're not externally all in a uniform TUI wave livery, but operationally it's more cost effective to have the repaints completed when its time to do so from an engineering requirement. Unfortunately with the high utilisation of these aircraft, theres been no space otherwise to plan anything but that for them.

[pamann]

There's 3x G-TUK* reg 737s in the UK fleet. All are ex fellow group airlines. The interiors are identical to the rest of the TUI 737 fleet. Yes fair enough, they're not externally all in a uniform TUI wave livery, but operationally it's more cost effective to have the repaints completed when its time to do so from an engineering requirement. Unfortunately with the high utilisation of these aircraft, theres been no space otherwise to plan anything but that for them.

G-TUKF is ex Ryanair/Pegasus. It doesn’t have a ‘standard’ Tui interior.

I believe the aircraft was sourced for fleet expansion after TCX’s failure prior to the Summer 2020 season, the pandemic put a stop to that. There were other examples such as ex FlyDubai aircraft. Though I’m not sure if those were or are part of the current fleet?

[ROC10]

G-TUKF is ex Ryanair/Pegasus. It doesn’t have a ‘standard’ Tui interior.

I believe the aircraft was sourced for fleet expansion after TCX’s failure prior to the Summer 2020 season, the pandemic put a stop to that. There were other examples such as ex FlyDubai aircraft. Though I’m not sure if those were or are part of the current fleet?

Others were planned (and even fully painted) but never ended up in service in the end, presumably due to Covid.

TUKF is in all-white with TUI titles. This is an older example so doesn’t have the Sky Interior but was fully refurbished prior to entering service I believe.

TUKM/O are ex-other TUI group airlines and are in a (very faded) all-blue livery with old TUI Nordic titles, albeit the “Nordic” is patched over.

TAWY looks worse externally. That is also ex-Nordic but they have completely removed the old Nordic titles and just added the big “TUI” at the front. It’s very patchy indeed.

The latter three all have the Sky Interior so it really is just their external appearance that’s the issue. No worse than the 787s though.

[Yeehaw22]

conjecture ;

an opinion or conclusion formed on the basis of incomplete information.


the information behind the statements is publicly available as you would expect for a listed company with a market cap of £2.88bn.


and interestingly Jet2’s maker cap on Friday was £2.5bn.

For completeness my last 3 package holidays have been Jet2 and I think they are much better than TUI in all respects but will be flying with TUI this summer. Just hoping to get a nice looking 737 rather than the grim
looking G-TUK* series! But this isn’t the same as the earlier posts suggesting that TUI are on the brink due to lots of positioning flights and third party flying. Thomson always used to do it they just appeared to have a better choice of partners in those days than TUI does now.

It's still conjecture regarding the discussions of the future or present operation which is what the discussions were actually about. I don't think anyone here is silly enough not know past figures and booking forecasts released in company statements. Nor did anyone actually say they were "on the brink" unless I've missed it ??

It's going to be an interesting next 12 months for tui that's for sure, as they've promised a big expansion. Currently have no announced firm agreement to take the Canadian aircraft from WestJet/sunwing. The 767s are going and it seems finally the company have twigged the calibre of 3rd party aircraft, although cheap, maybe having more of a reputational effect than they thought.

​

[Matt995]

Does anyone have any knowledge of when TUI will be taking delivery of their next 737-8 Max's? Presumably they are planning a larger fleet of Max's for Summer 2024 to meet their increased flight schedules?

I am aware that the 737-10 Max orders are still pending as the aircraft hasnt been certified yet, but don't they have around 30 Max 8's still on order?

[5711N0205W]

Aberdeen loses two destinations for 2024

- Rhodes goes completely.
- Tenerife loses the summer schedule though keeps the winter.

This ties in with no Sunwing in 24 and remains to be seen how the remaining schedule will be serviced.

Meanwhile a significant number of people continue to head to Edinburgh and Glasgow to hop on mainly Jet2 and/or EasyJet (maybe Ryr to a lesser extent) to all the usual destinations because of frequency and cost. Aberdeen(shire) definitely doesn’t have the population in the area to support a much higher frequency/more basing of holiday flights unfortunately.

[Richard Taylor]

Just drop Aberdeen altogether, those that want to fly can go to EDI, GLA, INV etc. The oil industry is about to end anyway.

[Yeehaw22]

It's already been announced ABZ is to close as a seasonal base. I assume all remaining routes will be on W patterns and/or 3PF. I would imagine that explains 2 extra A/c at GLA.
​​​​

[natmci]

It's been clear for quite a while that ABZ would lose its based AC for S24, 6 W-pattern flights a week operating which all line up with GLA flight times plus one PMI operated by a third party

[Kakpipe Cosmonaut]

conjecture ;

an opinion or conclusion formed on the basis of incomplete information.


the information behind the statements is publicly available as you would expect for a listed company with a market cap of £2.88bn.


and interestingly Jet2’s maker cap on Friday was £2.5bn.

For completeness my last 3 package holidays have been Jet2 and I think they are much better than TUI in all respects but will be flying with TUI this summer. Just hoping to get a nice looking 737 rather than the grim
looking G-TUK* series! But this isn’t the same as the earlier posts suggesting that TUI are on the brink due to lots of positioning flights and third party flying. Thomson always used to do it they just appeared to have a better choice of partners in those days than TUI does now.


and TUI market cap on the German stock is €3.5b. What’s J2 market cap in Germany?

A lot of J2 fan boys on here still.

[GBYAJ]

and TUI market cap on the German stock is €3.5b. What’s J2 market cap in Germany?

A lot of J2 fan boys on here still.

pretty sure I was a TUI supporter! I don’t think though it has separate market caps the figures quoted are the overall value of the business , but happy to be corrected.

@ End of June it was $3.85bn but this is quite a fall from the hey day in 2017 of $12bn.


Since 17 December 2014 TUI Group has its main listing in the premium segment of the London Stock Exchange and is included in FTSE’s UK Index Series. It also has a secondary listing in the electronic trading system Xetra and at the Hanover Stock Exchange.

[simonwa]

TUI 787 Dreamliner

Just travelled on TUI G-TUIH on one of TUI’s longest flights from MAN to PVR in Mexico.

Sitting near the wing, noticed the wing was a total patchwork of paint and what looked like reflective tape. Any idea why the wing was in that state? It looked dreadful. Clearly not affecting the serviceability of the aircraft. Is it a paintwork issue?
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1504/img_5632_e54e02b8e338278453b47bf1093da2d07fee1c73.jpeg

[Cazza_fly]

TUI 787 Dreamliner

Just travelled on TUI G-TUIH on one of TUI’s longest flights from MAN to PVR in Mexico.

Sitting near the wing, noticed the wing was a total patchwork of paint and what looked like reflective tape. Any idea why the wing was in that state? It looked dreadful. Clearly not affecting the serviceability of the aircraft. Is it a paintwork issue?
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1504/img_5632_e54e02b8e338278453b47bf1093da2d07fee1c73.jpeg

I invite you to google 787 wing tape... Its a known issue with almost every airline with a 787. Infact one from Qantas made the newspapers not so long ago. I believe its something to do with ensuring areas where paint has flaked remains covered from the elements including UV, as the exposed composite doesnt wear well in these conditions when compared to previous materials.

[FQTLSteve]

Surprised to see BHX not included on the new TUI W24 destination Luxor from LGW and MAN seems a bit odd.

[davidjohnson6]

Perhaps TUI should start with low-risk routes to Luxor that they know they can sell.. and expand to other UK airports if bookings are better than the original forecast ?

[rog747]

Surprised to see BHX not included on the new TUI W24 destination Luxor from LGW and MAN seems a bit odd.

Back before the Arab Spring the Egypt holidays charter market was booming, Luxor Sharm Taba Hurghada Marsa Alam, and Aswan even, were all holiday charter heaven.

Luxor was the first to fall (plus came the Loss of Monarch and also Thomas Cook too)
Monarch took a huge hit on the loss of the Egypt and Tunisia markets and was a big part in their demise.

LXR flights never recovered until now that we see package holiday charter flights coming back to the Nile region (Luxor) are starting again.
Although the Nile and the Red Sea resorts are Egypts Jewels for Tourism, it can be said that Egypt is not a ''safe bet'', nor ''low risk'' for any tour company/airline going back in there and they will be on ''hooks'' hoping that there is no unrest, nor major security issues which will again stop it all in its tracks, as has happened before time and time again. If anything is to be learned is that Luxor, historically is high risk.

Jet2 avoids both Egypt and Tunisia.

Luxor area is an amazing holiday area - Nile Cruises and the Valley of the Kings etc.
Slowly slowly as they say.....

[VickersVicount]

Surprised to see BHX not included on the new TUI W24 destination Luxor from LGW and MAN seems a bit odd.
Wasn't Luxor historically only ever LGW and MAN and veering towards niche so not sure anything odd at this stage.

[rog747]

Wasn't Luxor historically only ever LGW and MAN and veering towards niche so not sure anything odd at this stage.

For Thomsons/TUI, yes I think so; Monarch were the biggest operator to Egypt and to Luxor too.
Mondays was Luxor 'day' for the holidaymakers (bit like Skiathos Fridays, and Rhodes Wednesdays)

Egypt Holidays pre 2013, was massive, and happy camping ££££ for all of the Tour Operators and their Airlines.

[davidjohnson6]

There is already a looming security risk for southern Egypt - namely a civil war over the border in Sudan.
It's a fair distance from Luxor to the border, but war and fleeing refugees on the news headlines could easily cause trouble to TUI

[ATNotts]

For Thomsons/TUI, yes I think so; Monarch were the biggest operator to Egypt and to Luxor too.
Mondays was Luxor 'day' for the holidaymakers (bit like Skiathos Fridays, and Rhodes Wednesdays)

Egypt Holidays pre 2013, was massive, and happy camping ££££ for all of the Tour Operators and their Airlines.
Thomson did operate to Luxor from BHX up until a terrorist attack in the Luxor region that led to them pulling the who UK operation.

It's taken them a long time to go back into that market, and I expect an element of the Luxor offer will be Nile cruises, but as DJ6 says danger is sadly never far from the Egyptian tourist industry.

[GBYAJ]

Wasn't Luxor historically only ever LGW and MAN and veering towards niche so not sure anything odd at this stage.


it was planned from Newcastle way back in2006, can’t remember if it ever operated.


https://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/north-east-news/luxor-link-1548786

[rog747]

Luxor was one of my fav holiday places -
do a Nile Cruise on the old Agatha Christie paddle steamer, and add on a stay at the ex-Colonial piles of the Old Winter Palace Hotel at Luxor, and the Old Cataract at Aswan - both are simply heaven.
The trip down through the desert to Abu Simbel on Lake Nasser was the icing on the Pharaoh's cake.

The Luxor Temples, and the Valley of the Kings should be on every school kids bucket list (and they were once) so I do hope TUI's return to Luxor takes off.

At Monarch, we had Red Sea Holidays, Discover Egypt, Kuoni Holidays and Voyages Jules Verne who were all major charterers on LGW and MAN to Luxor flights for us.
757, A300 and A330 flights were all going out there en-masse (winter season only, in the main)
Aswan was also on a weekly 737 on Astraeus, and a GB Airways A320.

Thomsons/TUI were expanding with more Luxor flights from the regionals before it all went Pete Tong.

[Jamesair1]

I understand that the LUXOR flights are expressly linked to the Nile cruises operated by TUI, or so I read, who have 3 boats operating plus a newly refurbished one being added. The boats have a capacity of about 145 pax so the flights will be limited to the numbers they can carry on their cruises.

[azz767]

Per jethros another B737-800 is to join the fleet. Ex TUI Belgium frame that’s spent the last few years in the US, regd G-TUKR

[samj]

Any truth in these rumours of 767s being extended to end of Summer 2024? I think they need to be, TUI are at serious risk of reputational damage with these third party operators. Surely getting rid of these makes the fleet in a worse position?

Getting rid of the 757's was surely a very short sighted decision, looking back on it. Would have thought they would have been better off keeping them til end of Summer 2023 personally, rather than using anybody/everybody to operate their flights.

[pabely]

Any truth in these rumours of 767s being extended to end of Summer 2024? I think they need to be, TUI are at serious risk of reputational damage with these third party operators. Surely getting rid of these makes the fleet in a worse position?

Getting rid of the 757's was surely a very short sighted decision, looking back on it. Would have thought they would have been better off keeping them til end of Summer 2023 personally, rather than using anybody/everybody to operate their flights.
Time to consider the A321 like Jet2 - Ops, missed the boat on that. Max10 to save the day........June 21 first flight, certification 24.....

[noahwes09]

It is the sensible thing to do. Even though there 24 and 25 years old they still work. Expensive to operate- yes but still probably cheaper than charter airlines. Charter airlines are bad for the customers and not what they pay for. They should of just kept the 757s for another 2 or 3 years or longer!

[Yeehaw22]

they still work. Occasionally

Ftfy :E

[SWBKCB]

the third party airlines not only supply a/c but crews as well, pointless having a/c with nobody to fly them

[OltonPete]

the third party airlines not only supply a/c but crews as well, pointless having a/c with nobody to fly them

The last part of the quote is too true and often the case at BHX but also the current third-party incumbent far from guarantees that all flights will operate after another terrible week.

One Sunwing aircraft would have done an average of 26 sectors in the last week and it managed 5 and is on the ground again.

It got to a point on Thursday that a flight-plan was filed Toronto - BHX with a replacement although that never happened.

Tonight it will be a hotel for the Naples pax but a fairly common occurrence at BHX these days.

The ironic aspect......BHX had a spare TUI aircraft but that went to Edinburgh to cover a EDI-CFU-ABZ for a late running Dalaman - Aberdeen aircraft operated by.... you guessed it.

The other issues this week have been with the 787 fleet seeing Montego Bay delayed a day outbound and nearly 2 days inbound, Air Tanker operating one Dalaman 788 flight then the next sector was completed by two 738's. To be fair they all got away reasonably although the one 738 returned to Manchester which had a positioning flight number but you can't get 250-300 pax on a 738 so I assume they were split between other airports.

Another week they will want to forget.

Pete

[rog747]

Any truth in these rumours of 767s being extended to end of Summer 2024? I think they need to be, TUI are at serious risk of reputational damage with these third party operators. Surely getting rid of these makes the fleet in a worse position?

Getting rid of the 757's was surely a very short sighted decision, looking back on it. Would have thought they would have been better off keeping them til end of Summer 2023 personally, rather than using anybody/everybody to operate their flights.

The 757's and the 767's were due to go some years back now, but cue the 737 MAX Groundings, then Covid, and so now TUI are in a pickle as for their current Fleet, and their future fleet procurements;
The extended Sunwing 737 swap/lease deal is finally due to end.

The last 767's in the TUI Group (There are around 3 left) are all elderly, and no doubt due to retire when any C or D checks are due.
Likewise the many of the TUI UK 787's are now long in the tooth, and a handful of them are also due major checks.

Add to all of that, we now see 737M-10 delayed even further with Boeing pleading to the FAA for yet more waivers and more time (should have entered service back in 2021) which may not even see this type certified with the same 737 Type Rating.
The -10's for TUI have not yet been built, so even if the same 737 Type certificate and pilot ratings are awarded, TUI will not get the fleet on strength before 2026/2027.

I could see a shift by TUI Airways (UK) to Airbus for both the A321N and the A330N, but they would be at the back of Q.

Commiserations,
but TUI are having a bad summer, so be prepared for constant substitutions to 3rd party carriers, and sadly also be prepared to get delayed and/or get diverted on the way home.

[Sean North]

If I was TUI management, I'd seriously consider looking to get a few 77Ws. Massive, relatively quick to acquire and would definitely be filled on Manchester/Gatwick to Cancun, Orlando, Punta Cana. The 787s can then be used for regional long haul instead of axing it, the more unusual long haul routs (Costa Rica year round, Vietnam, Los Cabos) and to cover short to medium haul for the delayed 737-10s

[CabinCrewe]

777s? never going to happen. No crew, capacity in a leisure config too large (even for TUI) and becoming increasingly expensive to fuel and maintain.

[rog747]

777s? never going to happen. No crew, capacity in a leisure config too large (even for TUI) and becoming increasingly expensive to fuel and maintain.

777's for TUI?

Well,now there's a thought....The -200 series is the right size, but not really the -300.
Not sure of current selling/leasing prices, but if they are ''cheap'' then that surely counteracts the £ costs of Ops/Fuel/Mx
(cannot be much worse than looking after old 767's and middle aged 787's)

Re Crew, anyone ex Thomson who still drives, and had 757/767 Type rating would not find the 777 Training an issue.

Does TUI read this >?

[Yeehaw22]

Maybe they could snap up some cheap 380s too before global snap them all up.

[737James]

I have just returned from Twelve days in a Tui UK exclusive hotel in Paphos and the company’s reputation is very poor with many guests reporting delays and changes to third party flights with GetJet,SmartLynx being the worst.

Personally my outbound BHX-PFO was delayed 1hr25mins as they couldn’t get an fuel but seemed to be a just a Tui issue. Must say was impressed with Max aircraft seemed a bit more space than 738 I thought

Then inbound was planned to be a high capacity Dreamliner but that got moved to MAN to cover another flight so instead delayed the flight by an hour and sent one Tui 738 but oldest in fleet and then used GetJet for other flight. Their uproar at PFO as the GetJet needed to position back to MAN to keep up with following day schedule. Customers refused to board so gave people extra day in Resort fortunately inbound was just 205 so most got back on Tui 738 but crew not happy as called off standby to operate Deep night with getting back on stand at BHX at 05:38

Looking at the schedule for S24 it appears that Tui are not planning to use the 787 on short haul from BHX as based aircraft

[Matt995]

I have just returned from Twelve days in a Tui UK exclusive hotel in Paphos and the company’s reputation is very poor with many guests reporting delays and changes to third party flights with GetJet,SmartLynx being the worst.

Personally my outbound BHX-PFO was delayed 1hr25mins as they couldn’t get an fuel but seemed to be a just a Tui issue. Must say was impressed with Max aircraft seemed a bit more space than 738 I thought

Then inbound was planned to be a high capacity Dreamliner but that got moved to MAN to cover another flight so instead delayed the flight by an hour and sent one Tui 738 but oldest in fleet and then used GetJet for other flight. Their uproar at PFO as the GetJet needed to position back to MAN to keep up with following day schedule. Customers refused to board so gave people extra day in Resort fortunately inbound was just 205 so most got back on Tui 738 but crew not happy as called off standby to operate Deep night with getting back on stand at BHX at 05:38

Looking at the schedule for S24 it appears that Tui are not planning to use the 787 on short haul from BHX as based aircraft

TUI have done a similar thing at BHX today, outbound AGP was on a 788, which then went back to MAN, with the inbound AGP-BHX operated on 2 flights, on the awful GetJet 737, and also on the equally awful SmartLynx A320, and then both aircraft have replaced the 788 again, to LCA! You have to feel sorry for the passengers on these flights.

In regards to BHX for summer 2024, base is currently, 1x 789, 1x 788, 2x320, 8x737 - The 789 does short haul flights to AGP & KGS (Sundays), the 788 does PMI x3, SID x2, DLM & KGS

[SWBKCB]

awful GetJet 737, and also on the equally awful SmartLynx A320

​​​​​​​In what way are they awful?

[samj]

Guessing the 2024 schedule is only accessible through booking system?

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

Looking at the TUI fleet vs. Britannia in the 1990s, is it smaller now than it was then??? Someone else got that 3 decades of growth!
It's a relative decline on steroids.

TUI Airways
29 B73H
18 B73M
2 x B763
13 x B787
Total = 62

Jet2
6 x A321
9 x B757
7 x B733
85 x B73H
Total = 107

[rog747]

Looking at the TUI fleet vs. Britannia in the 1990s, is it smaller now than it was then??? Someone else got that 3 decades of growth!
It's a relative decline on steroids.

TUI Airways
29 B73H
18 B73M
2 x B763
13 x B787
Total = 62

Jet2
6 x A321
9 x B757
7 x B733
85 x B73H
Total = 107


Interesting thanks.

Britannia Airways from 1992 was to be 22 all new 757-204 G-BYAC - G-BYAY
G-BYAM was not a BY order, and was leased from Monarch, and also G-BXOL, both to 1999
(G-BYAG lost at Gerona SEPT 1999)
The BY 757 had 235 seats

The first BY 757's were 3 from Air Holland, with another one brand-new from Icelandair, and all 4 were leased to BY in full livery from 1991 for a number of years.

7 mostly new 767-204ER were in the fleet, plus 3 older 767-204.
These all had 290 seats (250 for the Oz flights)

Quite a few 737-204 and 737-204 ADV remained in the fleet until 1993/94

From 1996 the new larger 767-304ER fleet joined, and this was to be 10 aircraft G-OBYA - G-OBYJ
G-OBYK was not a BY order, but an original Air 2000 order in 1999, G-OOAL.
The 767-304ER had 328 seats.

So in Summer 1999 the fleet was 24 x 757, 10 x 767-304ER, and 7 x 767-204ER
= 41 Heavies with Britannia Airways.

[Big Tudor]

So in Summer 1999 the fleet was 24 x 757, 10 x 767-304ER, and 7 x 767-204ER
= 41 Heavies with Britannia Airways.

May be wrong, but I only recall 6 x B767-200’s in the fleet when I was there 1997-2000. Also, 1999 saw delivery of the new B737-800’s of which 6 operated in the U.K. before redeploying to Scandinavia IIRC.

[pabely]

I suggest part of Jet2 success, certainly up north, was the demise of TCX & MON. TUI, via their German masters were very slow to react but with fingers in many pies across Europe, their focus is not always UK.

[GBYAJ]

Interesting thanks.

Britannia Airways from 1992 was to be 22 all new 757-204 G-BYAC - G-BYAY
G-BYAM was not a BY order, and was leased from Monarch, and also G-BXOL, both to 1999
(G-BYAG lost at Gerona SEPT 1999)
The BY 757 had 235 seats

The first BY 757's were 3 from Air Holland, with another one brand-new from Icelandair, and all 4 were leased to BY in full livery from 1991 for a number of years.

7 mostly new 767-204ER were in the fleet, plus 3 older 767-204.
These all had 290 seats (250 for the Oz flights)

Quite a few 737-204 and 737-204 ADV remained in the fleet until 1993/94

From 1996 the new larger 767-304ER fleet joined, and this was to be 10 aircraft G-OBYA - G-OBYJ
G-OBYK was not a BY order, but an original Air 2000 order in 1999, G-OOAL.
The 767-304ER had 328 seats.

So in Summer 1999 the fleet was 24 x 757, 10 x 767-304ER, and 7 x 767-204ER
= 41 Heavies with Britannia Airways.

Great summary; if Air 2000 is added to this c20(?) does it prove the original poster’s statement that there hasn’t been any real growth in the airline???

[Flightrider]

It's a very difficult question to answer because of the mergers, acquisitions and failures which have taken place in this sector in the timeframe being discussed. What was Britannia 25 years ago - Britannia, Britannia + Air 2000, Britannia + Air 2000 + Leisure International?

The best I could come up with from 1997 CAA stats and setting Palmair Flightline and Sabre to one side (apologies to anyone offended, more likely by Palmair than Sabre!):

TUI
Air 2000 - 4 x A320, 12 x 757 with 4.2 million passengers
Britannia - 18 x 757, 6 x 767-200, 3 x 767-300 with 7.5 million passengers
Leisure International - 2 x A320, 1 x A321, 2 x 767-300 with 1.2 million passengers
Total of 48 aircraft and 12.9 million passengers


Thomas Cook
Airtours - 10 x A320, 7 x 757, 3 x 767-300 with 4.7 million passengers
Airworld - 5 x A320/321 with 0.7 milion passengers
Caledonian - 3 x A320, 6 x TriStar, 1 DC10-30 with 1.6 million passengers
Flying Colours - 1 x A320, 6 x 757 with 1.1 million passengers
Total of 42 aircraft and 8.1 million passengers

Monarch
4 x A300, 5 x A320, 1 x A321, 6 x 757, 1 x DC10-30 - Total of 17 aircraft with 4.4 million passengers

With the huge growth of easyJet since that time, it's also even more difficult to make any meaningful comparisons. I suppose if you added Thomas Cook and Monarch together and assumed that equalled Jet2 today (albeit in nothing other than size, not by lineage - unlike the Britannia comparison) then you'd conclude Jet2 and TUI should be about the same size with TUI ahead by a whisker. But the only thing you can say with any certainty is that over a timescale of 25 years, it's incredibly difficult and subjective to draw proper comparisons!

[Mooncrest]

Whatever they've called themselves and whatever they fly and whoever they borrow them from, TUI is but a shadow of what was Britannia Airways. What would Derek Davison, Bob Parker-Eaton et al make of it all ?

[jethro15]

TUI is but a shadow of what was Britannia Airways.
Never truer words said

[rog747]

May be wrong, but I only recall 6 x B767-200’s in the fleet when I was there 1997-2000. Also, 1999 saw delivery of the new B737-800’s of which 6 operated in the U.K. before deploying to Scandinavia IIRC.

Thanks,
I had on purpose, not included the Nordic destined 737-800's as they were not long in the UK operation,and I was really just looking at the main BY fleet for around 1999, but thank you for pointing them out.

As for the 767-204ER's they had AFAIK -
G-BPOB G-BRIF G-BRIG G-BYAA G-BYAB G-BNYS
also did they still have at that time (late 1990's) 767-204s G-BNCW G-BKPW G-BKVZ (not ER) ?

Air 2000 (AMM) who had by 1999 just taken over Leisure International's fleet too, giving them a total of four 767-300ER's (AMM had cancelled the UKL order for four new A330-200) then the combined fleets would be vastly bigger, but that would all come in later years.

[allnamestaken1]

Just got an email from Tui saying that my flight to Egypt is now with somebody called GO2SKY,I have never heard of them plus the holiday change says South terminal and e ticket says North terminal.

[arthur harbrow]

I flew on an elderly 737-8 of GO2SKY, although the flight was late and the cabin needed a rub down with a damp cloth the crew were excellent.
My lady friend who is blind flew with me and received first class service from one stewardess, found them to be friendlier and more pleasant than a lot of BA crews.

[allnamestaken1]

I flew on an elderly 737-8 of GO2SKY, although the flight was late and the cabin needed a rub down with a damp cloth the crew were excellent.
My lady friend who is blind flew with me and received first class service from one stewardess, found them to be friendlier and more pleasant than a lot of BA crews.Did you fly from Gatwick did they go from north terminal or south terminal.

[azz767]

Just got an email from Tui saying that my flight to Egypt is now with somebody called GO2SKY,I have never heard of them plus the holiday change says South terminal and e ticket says North terminal.


Looking at their fleet the one that’s operating for TUI currently is a former TUI group frame so probably has their older interior anyway and by the looks of it it’s in full TUI livery

[Big Tudor]

As for the 767-204ER's they had AFAIK -
G-BPOB G-BRIF G-BRIG G-BYAA G-BYAB G-BNYS
also did they still have at that time (late 1990's) 767-204s G-BNCW G-BKPW G-BKVZ (not ER) ?
Ah apologies, I had forgotten about G-BPOB. I think the non-ER’s had all gone to Ansett(?) by mid 90’s.

[Matt995]

Ah apologies, I had forgotten about G-BPOB. I think the non-ER’s had all gone to Ansett(?) by mid 90’s.

actually its registration was G-BOPB

[davidjohnson6]

At the start of 2023, there were various announcements that Southwind would fly between the UK and Turkey for TUI. Clearly this fell through. I can think of various reasons why it might not have happened, but is anybody with good knowledge of this able to say the reason why it didn't happen ?

Yes, I'm aware of the owner of Pegas Touristik (as well as Nordwind and Southwind) setting up a new travel agency for UK-Turkey flights in 2024. Yes, I also know that Southwind are flying between Germany and Turkey. Yes, I also know that Southwind has a somewhat unusual background, but I don't want to put words in the mouth of whoever answers my question.

[arthur harbrow]

allnamestaken1, hello, looking back it was a 737-4 OM-GTA, we flew back from Lanzarote to either Bristol or Birmingham in 2016.
I am sure it will be fine, just be thankful it is not Avion Express.

[LGS6753]

Another used 738 delivered to Luton today

[1889LS]

While the comparisons with Jet2 are being discussed, I think a comparionson between the ACMI carriers and operations used by the two needs to be mentioned.

The 3 AirExplore frames working for Jet2 at EMA have not had a single sector land more than 45 minutes after scheduled in the last week.
The 2 smartwings frams at BHX have 1 late sector in the last week between them.
The 2 Airtankers and 1 World2Fly at MAN have had 1 sector in the past week land an hour late.
The 2 Titans at STN have been late twice.
Meanwhile just look at the flight records of any TUI ACMI frame and it'll be full of late departures and arrivals, cancelled flights and tech issues.

All aircraft being used by LS (except the World2Fly A330 which has avery comfortable interior anyway) are fitted out with the jet2 cabin, basic Jet2 livery, and are fully crewed by Jet2 staff in passenger facing roles (with ACMI carrier crew in the flightdeck). To the layman, the experience and product provided is virtualy indistiguishable, and typically reliable. The carriers chosen by LS to provide flights on their behalf are clearly of a much better standard, and a little bit of extra investment from LS to put their own award winning product and bodies on board the aircraft will pay off 10 fold with happy customers returning, while TUIs will be more likely put off.

[GBYAJ]

Another used 738 delivered to Luton today

The lack of detail in this post made me check jethros….so it’s G-TUKR which is mentioned above.

G-FDZR was listed as returning a while ago, does anyone know what’s happened to ZR or when it will enter service??

[azz767]

While the comparisons with Jet2 are being discussed, I think a comparionson between the ACMI carriers and operations used by the two needs to be mentioned.

The 3 AirExplore frames working for Jet2 at EMA have not had a single sector land more than 45 minutes after scheduled in the last week.
The 2 smartwings frams at BHX have 1 late sector in the last week between them.
The 2 Airtankers and 1 World2Fly at MAN have had 1 sector in the past week land an hour late.
The 2 Titans at STN have been late twice.
Meanwhile just look at the flight records of any TUI ACMI frame and it'll be full of late departures and arrivals, cancelled flights and tech issues.

All aircraft being used by LS (except the World2Fly A330 which has avery comfortable interior anyway) are fitted out with the jet2 cabin, basic Jet2 livery, and are fully crewed by Jet2 staff in passenger facing roles (with ACMI carrier crew in the flightdeck). To the layman, the experience and product provided is virtualy indistiguishable, and typically reliable. The carriers chosen by LS to provide flights on their behalf are clearly of a much better standard, and a little bit of extra investment from LS to put their own award winning product and bodies on board the aircraft will pay off 10 fold with happy customers returning, while TUIs will be more likely put off.

Add to this they chose alternative operators because they tried Smartlynx the last two years at BHX and were littered with problems. So they didn’t do the same things and expect different results, they identified a problem and solved it effectively!

[Matt995]

While the comparisons with Jet2 are being discussed, I think a comparionson between the ACMI carriers and operations used by the two needs to be mentioned.

The 3 AirExplore frames working for Jet2 at EMA have not had a single sector land more than 45 minutes after scheduled in the last week.
The 2 smartwings frams at BHX have 1 late sector in the last week between them.
The 2 Airtankers and 1 World2Fly at MAN have had 1 sector in the past week land an hour late.
The 2 Titans at STN have been late twice.
Meanwhile just look at the flight records of any TUI ACMI frame and it'll be full of late departures and arrivals, cancelled flights and tech issues.

All aircraft being used by LS (except the World2Fly A330 which has avery comfortable interior anyway) are fitted out with the jet2 cabin, basic Jet2 livery, and are fully crewed by Jet2 staff in passenger facing roles (with ACMI carrier crew in the flightdeck). To the layman, the experience and product provided is virtualy indistiguishable, and typically reliable. The carriers chosen by LS to provide flights on their behalf are clearly of a much better standard, and a little bit of extra investment from LS to put their own award winning product and bodies on board the aircraft will pay off 10 fold with happy customers returning, while TUIs will be more likely put off.

You can't really compare the TUI ACMIs and Jet2 ACMIs reliablilty, because not all the delays are to do with the airframes. Jet2 on the whole self handle, so more efficient, TUI don't, and I believe pay the minimum amount to the ground handlers so don't do a good service from them. Destinations/slot restricitions/aircraft turn around times etc are also different for the 2 airlines. And again the TUI ACMI aircraft are often brought in at the last minute, to cover TUI's own aircraft issues!!

[Sean North]

Please tell me the irony of TUI getting rid of 737s and then chartering back those same 737s is not lost on TUI fleet management.

[highwideandugly]

TUI..but slightly off topic..flying to and from Cancun soon…anyone able to tell me if you have to pay arrival/departure taxes still at Cancun ?

[Confirmed Must Ride]

No all of that now taken in the ticket. The old days of needing hard cash to pay at check-in thankfully now gone.

[pabely]

Please tell me the irony of TUI getting rid of 737s and then chartering back those same 737s is not lost on TUI fleet management.
Might make sense to the bean counters!

[SJL26779]

TUI..but slightly off topic..flying to and from Cancun soon…anyone able to tell me if you have to pay arrival/departure taxes still at Cancun ?

You have to still pay a visitors tax prior to leaving the state of Quintana Roo. This is done via a website and is linked to your passport so they know when you arrive at the airport if you have paid or not.

If you don't pay it prior to departure you have to do it at the airport which I wouldn't recommend as the WiFi is terrible! You also can't pay it in cash as it can only be paid online.

Tourist Tax website (https://www.visitax.gob.mx/sitio/)

Thanks
Steven

[Sean North]

I do wonder what the plan for next Summer is. I don't know the 767 routes but in recent years they had them both going MAN - PMI on the same day. That's equivalent to 4 737s. I guess the plan it to charter more old, tatty aircraft from third parties and not bother expanding their own fleet

[highwideandugly]

Many thanks for replies on the Mexico tax!

[azz767]

I do wonder what the plan for next Summer is. I don't know the 767 routes but in recent years they had them both going MAN - PMI on the same day. That's equivalent to 4 737s. I guess the plan it to charter more old, tatty aircraft from third parties and not bother expanding their own fleet

Or potentially buy seats on other airlines like they have been doing on EZY out of certain airports

[VickersVicount]

Or potentially buy seats on other airlines like they have been doing on EZY out of certain airports
4x 737’s worth is a lot of seats to source on other carriers.
Interesting to know what their fleet thoughts are. Suppose their 737 max10’s should have been here by now. The usual of balancing cliff edge drops in dark winter months versus peaks mid summer. Maybe they could get in on Air Tanker action.
People keep paying despite ‘tatty’ 3rd party carriers so they’ll just keeping doing it…

[ATNotts]

4x 737’s worth is a lot of seats to source on other carriers.
Interesting to know what their fleet thoughts are. Suppose their 737 max10’s should have been here by now. The usual of balancing cliff edge drops in dark winter months versus peaks mid summer. Maybe they could get in on Air Tanker action.
People keep paying despite ‘tatty’ 3rd party carriers so they’ll just keeping doing it…
I suppose there is an element of 'you get what you pay for' and seem to recall reading pretty positive comments about the likes of Plus Ultra and Wamos. I guess that the bean counters know the price of everything and the quality of nothing.

Pretty common these days.

[SWBKCB]

I suppose there is an element of 'you get what you pay for' and seem to recall reading pretty positive comments about the likes of Plus Ultra and Wamos. I guess that the bean counters know the price of everything and the quality of nothing.

Pretty common these days.

What percentage of flying is done on 'tatty' third party aircraft - for example, the only sub the four a/c base at Newcastle has seen was Titan.

[pabely]

I do wonder what the plan for next Summer is. I don't know the 767 routes but in recent years they had them both going MAN - PMI on the same day. That's equivalent to 4 737s. I guess the plan it to charter more old, tatty aircraft from third parties and not bother expanding their own fleet
Does make me wonder why they still have a 789 sitting on the desert in US doing nothing, perhaps Boeing are still making compensation payments year round. If the Max10 is delayed beyond S24 they are going to have serious capacity issues once again.
Hopefully they are working on plan B already to get extra S24 capacity with a reliable leased in product.

[ATNotts]

What percentage of flying is done on 'tatty' third party aircraft - for example, the only sub the four a/c base at Newcastle has seen was Titan.
A small percentage of course, but aggrieved passengers taking to social media can make that small percentage a nasty headache.

If you are a quality business you don't contract necessarily the cheapest suppliers as a good reputation is hard won and easily lost. To use another well worn addige its not making a mistake, but how you recover that counts.

[Matt995]

Does make me wonder why they still have a 789 sitting on the desert in US doing nothing, perhaps Boeing are still making compensation payments year round. If the Max10 is delayed beyond S24 they are going to have serious capacity issues once again.
Hopefully they are working on plan B already to get extra S24 capacity with a reliable leased in product.

TUI have rejected the B789 G-TUIP, beleive they have said they don't have demand for another widebody aircraft, so it won't happen, i'm sure they will be taking delivery of more 737 max 8's over the next 10 months, and maybe more second hand 738s? And they will be using leased in A320s again next summer from the likes of SmartLynx and Avion Express.

[Mco66]

Maybe they could lease in 4 747’s from Global Airlines😀

[Sean North]

TUI have rejected the B789 G-TUIP, beleive they have said they don't have demand for another widebody aircraft, so it won't happen, i'm sure they will be taking delivery of more 737 max 8's over the next 10 months, and maybe more second hand 738s? And they will be using leased in A320s again next summer from the likes of SmartLynx and Avion Express.

Have they official rejected it and said they don’t want it?

I thought they were in desperate need of long haul aircraft. Not only have you had the complete axing of regional long-haul from next year (which I assumed was due to aircraft shortages) but the axing of several long haul routes:

AUA
LIR (now seasonal and I thought there was a MAN - LIR at one point too)
SJD
AUA
PQC
POP
CCC
MRU
MLE for a bit of an older one that was still post First Choice merger


And that’s recent TUI UK destinations. If you look at long haul from 15 years ago it’s worse.

Whilst some of its will be lack of bums on seat, I assumed a large part was due to aircraft shortages.

[P330]

As people not privy to the inside details, we are not going to know for certain. But my take is that 'demand' has fallen which is why fewer aircraft are needed and routes have been chopped.

Demand has fallen for all the publicly obvious reasons; high fuel prices, cost of living, people who can afford a holiday going for cheaper, shorter, European breaks. The relative cost of the £ v other currencies hasn't helped either. That is not to say demand isn't there, but not enough demand to fill the routes and make a good profit (I assume). All the while European holidays are still holding up and in fact are still enjoying a post-covid boom, but it wouldn't take much of a leap of thought to think that with high interest rates out there and disposable income being constantly squeezed, that we may see a slowing of demand for European travel in 2024, 2025 and 2026.

I wouldn't be surprised if there was some scaling back of "timetables" v what is on sale today for 2024 once we get past Christmas (across all operators) as people become nervous about booking holidays as their fixed rate mortgages come to an end. Hope I'm wrong....

[ATNotts]

I wouldn't be surprised if there was some scaling back of "timetables" v what is on sale today for 2024 once we get past Christmas (across all operators) as people become nervous about booking holidays as their fixed rate mortgages come to an end. Hope I'm wrong....

I would say that is a given. The bad old days of IT consolidations are likely just around the corner, even for quasi scheduled operators such as Jet2 and Easyjet.

There isn't a perennial fruiting magic money tree and difficult budgeting decisions are going to be coming down the tracks particularly for younger families with big mortgages.

[LBAflyer22]

I would say that is a given. The bad old days of IT consolidations are likely just around the corner, even for quasi scheduled operators such as Jet2 and Easyjet.

There isn't a perennial fruiting magic money tree and difficult budgeting decisions are going to be coming down the tracks particularly for younger families with big mortgages.

Ahh the squeeze on the middle class is coming courtesy of the traitors in government, the PM who should be arrested for treason for working for Klaus and the WEF, and the incompetent and useless Bank of England governor. I hope that the industry is right in what it's saying in terms of people are booking much earlier and spreading the payments out.

[inOban]

Maybe they've decided that it makes sense to leave the flying to scheduled airlines which are large enough to have frames kept as hot spares (as I believe both Jet2 and Easyjet do) or are part of alliances with large fleets around the world. Stick to providing accommodation packages in tied hotels, and cruises.

[Smudge's Lot]

You have AUA down twice.
TUI (the holiday operator) is the caller for what flying TUI Airways does and always has been. The tour operator has indicated that after Covid, the appetite for longhaul has decreased substantially so that's why the 787s are doing quite a bit of shorthaul.
So TUI the tour operator, has put AUA onto British Airways (via ANU) The airline only went there once a week anyway.
LIR sales just declined too much for the ,again, once a week flight.
The Airline left MLE years ago as the prices charged for the airport/islands was just too expensive, and MLE attracted Chinese/Korean and Russian tourists.
The Tour Operator tehn went to MRU after leaving MLE but the flights have not returned since Covid.
No idea why PQC hasn't restarted but agian, Covid had a huge impact on Vietnam tourist numbers.
POP use to remain a MAN departure but all Dom Rep flights are now to PUJ (Various factors incl RIU hotels/government subsidies etc).
SJD went for a 6 month season but sales for the UK were just not enough, though the US tourists love the place!

At the end of the day, its the customers who decide what TUI the tour operator offers, which is the ony dictate for what TUI Airwyas does. So if longhaul destinations are seemed as too expensive in today's Cost of Living crisis, then that's why TUI Airways does less and less. And that's possibly why TUIP was never taken over....

Covid has had a huge affect on a lot of the Longhaul destinations and I'm sure that one day, demand will come back

[Matt995]

All the talk of TUIs Summer 2024 flights, please see attached the current flight timetable for Birmingham, based on August 2024, fleet of 1x789, 1x788, 2x320s (SmartLynx), 8x737s, (mix of 738s and 7M8s)

Will be interesting to see if any routes are dropped between now and next summer, flight times are also bound to change once airport slots are firmed up, so please use this as a guide only.

all subject to change.

[Mooncrest]

When it was still called Britannia Airways, the company would lease in 737s for the summer from the likes of Air Mali, Gulf Air, PLUNA, Quebecair and Aer Lingus. Can anyone say if these bygone arrangements were more satisfactory than the current shenanigans?

[GBYAJ]

When it was still called Britannia Airways, the company would lease in 737s for the summer from the likes of Air Mali, Gulf Air, PLUNA, Quebecair and Aer Lingus. Can anyone say if these bygone arrangements were more satisfactory than the current shenanigans?

I think we probably can! Britannia had such high standards nothing would be allowed to diminish their brand! The thinking here is that TUI don’t care as much. While everyone will have different thoughts I always remember Thomson trying to use quality third parties and modern aircraft when they didn’t use Britannia. Intasun on the other hand wouldn’t be shy using Aviogenex tu134’s, Balkan tu 154’s and “new” Turkish carriers such as Talia and Toros Air (look them up!).

[ATNotts]

I think we probably can! Britannia had such high standards nothing would be allowed to diminish their brand! The thinking here is that TUI don’t care as much. While everyone will have different thoughts I always remember Thomson trying to use quality third parties and modern aircraft when they didn’t use Britannia. Intasun on the other hand wouldn’t be shy using Aviogenex tu134’s, Balkan tu 154’s and “new” Turkish carriers such as Talia and Toros Air (look them up!).
in defence of Intasun I seem to recall the Jugoslavian government required their airlines to be used at the beginning of IT holidays to the country. I can't recall whether Thomson / Skytours were so early into the Balkan resorts.

[GBYAJ]

[QUOTE=ATNotts;11480111]in defence of Intasun I seem to recall the Jugoslavian government required their airlines to be used at the beginning of IT holidays to the country. I can't recall whether Thomson / Skytours were so early into the Balkan resorts.[/

you’re right Thomson didn’t touch Bulgaria.

But they did go to Yugoslavia and used Adria and Jat with modern western built aircraft rather than Aviogenex.

Even in the Uk, Thomson only started using BIA when they got MD83’s. Dan Air became a regular when they got 737-400’s but it’s well known that Intasun and Airtours used (in the early) days cheap and cheerful 1-11’s.

the Spanish government had a similar policy regarding using local carriers to the one you mentioned. Thomson favoured Hispiania who offered decent service compared to Aviaco for example who were renowned for poor service.

the overall (nostalgic) point was that Thomson of the 80’s and 90’s were careful in selecting airline partners!

[rog747]

Skytours (pre Thomsons name) and in-house airline Britannia Airways were going to Yugoslavia (Ljubljana and Pula) as far back as 1965/1966; in fact they sadly had the Britannia 102 accident at LJU in 1966, G-ANBB.
Horizon using BUA/BCAL, certainly were flying into Dubrovnik by 1971/1972 if not before.

Skytours (using Britannias) also began package holidays to Bulgaria's Black Sea beaches flying to Varna and Burgas not long after in the late 1960's - sold as an 'exotic new' resort, as a cheap alternative to the Spanish Costa's.
I think Clarksons and others also started up to Romania, flying in to Constanta with Dan Air Comets.
There was a specialist operator called Sunquest, and of course Balkan Holidays.
The resorts did not take on that well with Thomsons, and eventually got dropped.
The food in the hotels was dire IIRC and it was still 'too Soviet' and no one spoke English then.

However Sunny Beach today is a big hit again, with 1000's of young Brit's 'Go-To' for a cheap 4S type holiday; Sun Sea Sand (but today forget by Superjet, just add in Sex - and lots of it)

It was of course Yugotours that had the main holiday market in Yugoslavia, and UK charter airlines simply could not compete with the low seat rates of Aviogenex and Inex Adria.

Sadly Yugotours Gatwick pax were to suffer a nasty crash in May 1971 when flying out in a brand new Aviogenex TU-134A-3 YU-AHZ when it flipped over on fast and hard landing made in Heavy Rain at the Rijeka Airport on the Island of Krk.
YU-AHZ had accumulated a total of only 111 airframe hours at the time of the crash.
All pax and the 3 Stewardesses were trapped and succumbed to the smoke and fire. Seventy-two passengers were British tourists, while the others were Yugoslav.
Four flight crew members and one passenger survived the accident, a young lad sitting in the back row who got himself out of the rear baggage hold;
He was son the of the Ambassador to the UK and he was studying in London.
He had a ticket from Yugotours to go home for a holiday to the family's island home.
The other Yugoslavs on board was Josip Pupačić who was a very famous Croatian writer, Poet, literary critic and literary historian.
He was travelling together with his wife Benko and daughter Rašeljka, who a few days before had an operation in London due to a serious illness.
Josip Pupačić fell in love with Krk and especially Omišalj, and intended to buy a house there for his family - these plans were interrupted by this tragedy in which the entire family perished.
At first, he and his family were unable to buy tickets for the fateful flight. They got the tickets only after another UK family cancelled their trip.

The UK AIB assisted the Commission of Inquiry who pointed to the response and performance of ground emergency services, which could not save the people still alive from the burning aircraft. In addition, it was noted that the number and location of emergency hatches on the Tu-134A did not meet International requirements, and when elements of the interior of the passenger compartment burned, toxic products were released.
It became impossible to open the door from the Flight Deck to the passenger cabin due to the blockage of luggage and Galley equipment when turning over on its back.
External doors and all emergency exits were not open from inside the fuselage, and could not be opened from the outside due to:
- possible deformation of the fuselage; the right wing root had folded over blocking the exit windows, and the fire blocking the left side.
- the opening inside of doors was prevented by fallen luggage and galley items;
- there was a poor awareness of the crew and passengers about the actions and principles of opening hatches and doors;
- it is quite possible, due to the lock system for closing the main entrance door, which has a special latch;
- the lock preventing the opening, in the normal state, of the front door from the outside, was closed by mistake of the stewardess, which did not allow ground services to open the door;
- it was dark, night time; fire.
- lack of illumination of emergency hatches when the aircrafts on-board electrical network is completely de-energized;
- the position of the aircraft on its back, when all escape actions must be reversed;
- and the last: all passengers and stewardesses were left without a Commander, and without his leadership of the evacuation.
It is quite possible that with the correct actions of all of the crew it was possible to evacuate at least some of the passengers through the rear hold opening from where one passenger survived.
The cabin crew and passengers managed to pry open the service door, but by that time the smoke was too thick, and the passengers and cabin crew had succumbed to carbon monoxide poisoning. The situation was very difficult; The plane turned over to be doused with kerosene, which burned fiercely for over 2 hours after the accident.

Of course, this 1971 crash to UK passengers was the subject of much debate in the Westminster Parliament over the safety issues using Foreign charter airlines and with Russian built aircraft.


Britannia Airways, as mentioned, had summer 737 leases with mostly decent airlines, such as Transavia etc.
They obviously subbed in AdHocs when the program was all going Pete Tong, and they would go with whatever they could get - Pan Am 727's for instance and many other exotic sub charters.
One of the not so good series of summer flights that Britannia subbed out was using CTA Canafrica DC-8's (I think from EDI and GLA to Spain)
We would love to fly on one of those DC-8's today of course for the pure nostalgia, but perhaps not for the delays LOL.

Intasun flying from the Regionals used Aviaco,Transeuropa, and of course Dan Air - with night departures, often at unearthly hours.



​​​​​​​

[737James]

All the talk of TUIs Summer 2024 flights, please see attached the current flight timetable for Birmingham, based on August 2024, fleet of 1x789, 1x788, 2x320s (SmartLynx), 8x737s, (mix of 738s and 7M8s)

Will be interesting to see if any routes are dropped between now and next summer, flight times are also bound to change once airport slots are firmed up, so please use this as a guide only.

all subject to change.

Good job putting all that together and based upon this it looks like BHX is having quite a considerable capacity reduction for 2024 as this year there are two flights a day being operated on the high capacity 325 seat 787-8 aircraft however in 2024 these are being replaced with 189 seats 738 and Max aircraft .

So potentially that’s 544 less seats a day x 7 3,808 seats a week less than this year I can’t see they have added more flights with PFO losing 2 787 flights and DLM the same

[Matt995]

Good job putting all that together and based upon this it looks like BHX is having quite a considerable capacity reduction for 2024 as this year there are two flights a day being operated on the high capacity 325 seat 787-8 aircraft however in 2024 these are being replaced with 189 seats 738 and Max aircraft .

So potentially that’s 544 less seats a day x 7 3,808 seats a week less than this year I can’t see they have added more flights with PFO losing 2 787 flights and DLM the same

Yes less dreamliner flights, but TUI's spin on it, is that they are basing an extra aircraft at Birmingham for 2024! - I guess at least with most aircraft being 180 seaters, it will be easier to manage when aircraft go tech!

[samj]

Is there a similar timetable for MAN & LGW? Very interesting to read, I guess with 767s going, MAN will also face a capacity reduction.

[OltonPete]

Good job putting all that together and based upon this it looks like BHX is having quite a considerable capacity reduction for 2024 as this year there are two flights a day being operated on the high capacity 325 seat 787-8 aircraft however in 2024 these are being replaced with 189 seats 738 and Max aircraft .

So potentially that’s 544 less seats a day x 7 3,808 seats a week less than this year I can’t see they have added more flights with PFO losing 2 787 flights and DLM the same

In a word no, a small capacity cut and if Almeria is added back then it will be up slightly although have based my figures and 189 seats due laziness :) rather than the 320's showing.

What you have to remember it is 12 based 7 days a week, this summer is 11 based but only 5 days a week with a 788 disappearing on Wednesday and Thursday leaving 10 based. Therefore two days a week has two extra aircraft but I concede I am shocked at the amount of times aircraft number 12 operates to other UK airports during the day - it was 5 times no less but seems to be 4 now as Enfidha on Sunday returns straight back to BHX which hopefully means Almeria will be released shortly.

Another change which are not included in my estimates is the flight only to Antalya and Dalaman show the Sun Express flights which are massively increased on this summer taking up some of the deficit caused by the reduction from the 789 to 738. I still make it over 60000 seats next August and it was only just over that this August.

Almeria is a bit odd as it goes out full most weeks but often isn't in the first release or it is and gets removed for it to reappear, there is space for it on Thursday and Sunday.

Pete

[Matt995]

- it was 5 times no less but seems to be 4 now as Enfidha on Sunday returns straight back to BHX which hopefully means Almeria will be released shortly.

Almeria is a bit odd as it goes out full most weeks but often isn't in the first release or it is and gets removed for it to reappear, there is space for it on Thursday and Sunday.

Pete

Not quite certain where you are getting the information from Pete, re Enfidha on Sundays for BHX Summer 2024? Still showing that the aircraft operates on a W pattern (to BFS) from late May to the end of September. - Almeria won't be added back, as their is no current spare aircraft slots for it on Thursdays or Sundays

Is there a similar timetable for MAN & LGW? Very interesting to read, I guess with 767s going, MAN will also face a capacity reduction.

Sorry Samj, only done BHX, don't have time to work our MAN & LGW at present.

[GeorgeNTravels]

Sunwing causing issues again, this time at GLA.

Yesterdays Dalaman flight was cancelled and the Sunwing aircraft flew back to Aberdeen. Flight has been rescheduled for this afternoon using Sunwing inbound from Palma.

As a result this afternoons Palma flight will be operated by a TUI 737-800 (G-TAWJ) which will then fly to Aberdeen before returning empty to Manchester.

[OltonPete]

[QUOTE=Matt995;11480945]Not quite certain where you are getting the information from Pete, re Enfidha on Sundays for BHX Summer 2024? Still showing that the aircraft operates on a W pattern (to BFS) from late May to the end of September. - Almeria won't be added back, as their is no current spare aircraft slots for it on Thursdays or Sundays

It was in the holidays section and not the timetable section and it was when I put in specific dates but I didn't realise TUI prefer you to fly the days they want you to go not the days you want to go. It does this without an option to select +/- 3 days option. I put in Tunisia the Sunday option appeared so I selected it without adding filters for price or resort and I strangely had this notion that the Sunday flight would appear but I hadn't noticed the first 15 holidays displayed were the Monday flight. I trust they are trying to sell Monday over Sunday and don't give two hoots what the customer actually wants.

Perfectly understandable if you select Sunday and the only flight is Monday.The same happened with Dubrovnik, I selected Thursday and the first 10 holidays were Sunday - what an infuriating piece of software. The Jet2 website strangely shows you the day you have asked for, what a unique concept that is. In the results page you can filter your options is the left hand panel in TUI if you notice but my word :confused:.

I still half expect a Sunday & Thursday slot to appear for Almeria by changing possibly the NBE and DBV and the spare Thursday slot was an easy error to spot, it was the P&O Malta which I hadn't noted as I was using TUI and naturally isn't displayed

The TUI timetable is very easy to use but doesn't automatically show the return landing time which is a pain but at least there is an option which is more than Jet2 does now.

Pete

[VickersVicount]

One of the not so good series of summer flights that Britannia subbed out was using CTA Canafrica DC-8's (I think from EDI and GLA to Spain)

I flew on one of those! to IBZ in 1987. All female crew for cockpit visit… im sure they might even have been smoking! Mixed surly Spanish crew and some BY cabin crew. Meals were Britannia branded. Noisy, smokey, long stretched DC8. Departed and returned on time. I even have a grainy kodak instapic of said- DC8 on tarmac. Had no idea in those days that wasn’t the actual carrier we were supposed to be on. GLA also had a TransAer A320 for a summer in partial lease tail colours.

[OltonPete]

Good job putting all that together and based upon this it looks like BHX is having quite a considerable capacity reduction for 2024 as this year there are two flights a day being operated on the high capacity 325 seat 787-8 aircraft however in 2024 these are being replaced with 189 seats 738 and Max aircraft .

So potentially that’s 544 less seats a day x 7 3,808 seats a week less than this year I can’t see they have added more flights with PFO losing 2 787 flights and DLM the same

With Matt's help, August 2024 is around 800-1000 seats per week down (depends if it is a mix of the 300/325 seat 788) on August 23 but TUI could counter that by saying they have taken a significant amount of seats on the Sun Express Dalaman and Antalya and it would be difficult to dispute as DLM appears to have increased from 3 to 10 per week and AYT from 8 o 12 per week.

Do we really think the BHX aircraft is going to operate BHX-NBE-BFS-NBE-BHX? That will take some convoluted crew sorting.

Pete

[manchesterflyer2]

The BHX - NBE - BFS w pattern is plausible; there was a MAN - PMI - BFS w pattern when operations restarted in 2021. The lucky crew would position with EasyJet on a Friday, night stop in Belfast and then do BFS - PMI - MAN the following afternoon. The unlucky crew would do the earlier MAN - PMI - BFS, wait in Belfast airport and then position home with EasyJet back to MAN.

[compton3bravo]

Vivid memories of Britannia subbing in Transavia B737-200s especially on Saturdays at Luton using call sign Transavia 097 if my memory is correct to operate four sectors then returning back to Amsterdam late evening. Messrs Davidson, etc were very particular in what they subbed in.

[Mooncrest]

Vivid memories of Britannia subbing in Transavia B737-200s especially on Saturdays at Luton using call sign Transavia 097 if my memory is correct to operate four sectors then returning back to Amsterdam late evening. Messrs Davidson, etc were very particular in what they subbed in.
PH-TVP was leased to Britannia in 1983. She turned up at Leeds Bradford every summer Saturday in 1983, from and to Pula. Never knew if this was a Thomson or Yugotours job. Maybe both.

[hatton]

Does anyone know the percentage of short-haul work being done by the 787 fleet. I wonder if this will increase next year with 767s being retired. Thanks

[samj]

Seems to be more on short haul out of MAN and BHX, with a handful out of LGW. I am also intrigued as to what they do with 787s on short haul next year. Are the 767s really that unreliable they need to go?

[SWBKCB]

The 787 which currently operates through NCL on a part time basis this summer, becomes based next year and operates some SH between LH.

[Boeing737-8]

With Matt's help, August 2024 is around 800-1000 seats per week down (depends if it is a mix of the 300/325 seat 788) on August 23 but TUI could counter that by saying they have taken a significant amount of seats on the Sun Express Dalaman and Antalya and it would be difficult to dispute as DLM appears to have increased from 3 to 10 per week and AYT from 8 o 12 per week.

Do we really think the BHX aircraft is going to operate BHX-NBE-BFS-NBE-BHX? That will take some convoluted crew sorting.

Pete

Looks as if there is going to be a significant increase in Sun Express flights to the U.K. next year which are offered on TUI packages. Manchester has 3 to DLM / AYT on a Tuesday in 2024. Suppose that has allowed the withdrawals on the 787 from those Turkish routes.

[hatton]

Is it just one 788 that is in short-haul cabin configuration? Does anyone know if the 788s are having major overhauls this winter. I presume this is going to be done in Jordan and not in Luton?

[azz767]

Is it just one 788 that is in short-haul cabin configuration? Does anyone know if the 788s are having major overhauls this winter. I presume this is going to be done in Jordan and not in Luton?

3 this summer G-TUIB/D/F but they have regularly had to be subbed onto long haul routes due to different issues. There should be one each at MAN/BHX/LGW but again, regularly this has not been the case.

[samj]

The 787 which currently operates through NCL on a part time basis this summer, becomes based next year and operates some SH between LH.

I am surprised there is the demand from Newcastle for a 787. I guess it's to save positioning it about, and wasting miles/crew etc?

[LAX2000]

A 789 at LGW operates short haul twice a week RHO and AYT/DLM and similar with the based 789 at BHX operating AYT/DLM.

Manchester seems to have a 789 almost permanently operating short haul.

[Matt995]

see attached pdf showing the 787 schedule for August.

I compiled this information around May, so it might be slightly out to date with flight times, and maybe 788/789 aircraft swaps, but should give you an idea on LH v SH flights.

[hatton]

Thank you, Matt

[Cazza_fly]

Seems to be more on short haul out of MAN and BHX, with a handful out of LGW. I am also intrigued as to what they do with 787s on short haul next year. Are the 767s really that unreliable they need to go?

The 767s are not unreliable. The 787s have been atrocious this summer. Lease in after lease in to cover endless 787 issues.

The issue with the 767s is that the fleet is now now so small in numbers that they have become inefficient to crew. With the leases planned to come to an end over the next few months or so, it probably makes sense at this point to take the opportunity to unify the fleet types and thus crewing efficiency.

They have provided great additional capacity this summer and throughout their time in the airline, being so easily adaptable from shorthaul into longhaul, especially in the past. This will be hugely missed next summer in particular, but with plenty of pre-planning, I believe TUI will have the right mix going forward.

The best thing for TUI to do in terms of the 787-8s next summer, is to not convert a sub-fleet of them into a Y325 layout. It just adds unnecessary complexity and disappointment. Especially with their poor reliability and the need for swapping aircraft around. The premium cabins can simply just be sold as extra space seats on short-haul flights.

[LiamNCL]

I am surprised there is the demand from Newcastle for a 787. I guess it's to save positioning it about, and wasting miles/crew etc?

Newcastle becomes a 5x 738 base next summer and the 787 is based for 6 days from what i can see, operating DLM & AYT on Sundays.

[Yeehaw22]

The 767s are not unreliable.

:rolleyes:

[hatton]

Can anyone confirm that TUI 787 maintenance is done at Luton and 737s at Brussels exclusively or does Luton do 737s as well?

[pabely]

Can anyone confirm that TUI 787 maintenance is done at Luton and 737s at Brussels exclusively or does Luton do 737s as well?
Luton does mostly 737s but not unusual to get 787s as well. A TUI Germany 737 was in thus week.

[hatton]

So who does most of TUIs 787 maintenance?

[Boeing737-8]

So who does most of TUIs 787 maintenance?

Luton regularly sees the 787 in for maintenance, however, the heavy 787 maintenance is done in Amman.

[Sean North]

So who does most of TUIs 787 maintenance?

Joramco in Amman (follow the trail and it's owned by the a member of the Dubai ruling family. Same person as the President of the Dubai Civil Aviation Authority and the CEO of Emirates

[hatton]

Thanks, do TUI have any other base maintenance facilities besides Luton in the UK?

[VickersVicount]

Thanks, do TUI have any other base maintenance facilities besides Luton in the UK?
Don’t think so. Reasonably large inhouse line maintenance teams at LGW and MAN. Used to have some at GLA but think its all outsourced now.

[Sean North]

Thanks, do TUI have any other base maintenance facilities besides Luton in the UK?

There's an engineering base Zaventem, Belgium. No idea how significant it is but it sees 737s and 787s. There was the main TUI engineering base in Germany somewhere along with ops HQ but I think that closed and got transferred to Luton when the airlines all became TUI

[JonnyH]

I am surprised there is the demand from Newcastle for a 787. I guess it's to save positioning it about, and wasting miles/crew etc?

NCL is one of their most profitable bases.

[flybar]

Would appear that this mornings Freebird flight from LBA to Antalya, operating for TUI, is now flying tomorrow morning. Lots of unhappy families!

[inOban]

With having closed their Edinburgh base there will be pax travelling from Edinburgh to NCL.

[Mooncrest]

Would appear that this mornings Freebird flight from LBA to Antalya, operating for TUI, is now flying tomorrow morning. Lots of unhappy families!
It departed Leeds Bradford just after 8 a.m. today.

[samj]

NCL is one of their most profitable bases.

Oh really - is there any information/links anywhere to show this? What else are the most profitable?

[chaps1954]

I would that would be info that is for TUI not the general public to know

[flybar]

It departed Leeds Bradford just after 8 a.m. today.

https://www.yorkshireeveningpost.co.uk/news/traffic-and-travel/leeds-bradford-airport-flight-to-turkey-delayed-by-23-hours-due-to-bird-strike-as-tui-issues-apology-4254846?utm_campaign=leed-news-api&utm_medium=email&_hsmi=270200063&_hsenc=p2ANqtz-_T3lLZXscWOIJkQQmkM89Ow2mdRSqieqpi6m4KQJgZemGseXulP_ERL1k88J 5W114DYKGjcASth4xy7M7UHK-FKkL3ow&utm_content=270200063&utm_source=hs_email

[Mooncrest]

https://www.yorkshireeveningpost.co.uk/news/traffic-and-travel/leeds-bradford-airport-flight-to-turkey-delayed-by-23-hours-due-to-bird-strike-as-tui-issues-apology-4254846?utm_campaign=leed-news-api&utm_medium=email&_hsmi=270200063&_hsenc=p2ANqtz-_T3lLZXscWOIJkQQmkM89Ow2mdRSqieqpi6m4KQJgZemGseXulP_ERL1k88J 5W114DYKGjcASth4xy7M7UHK-FKkL3ow&utm_content=270200063&utm_source=hs_email
No news here. Typical YEP filler fodder.

[samj]

1755 LGW-MAH on a Sunday in the TUI Summer 2024 schedule. Is this is a 787?
Can’t seem to work it out via any method.

[Jamie236]

1755 LGW-MAH on a Sunday in the TUI Summer 2024 schedule. Is this is a 787?
Can’t seem to work it out via any method.

if you try and book a holiday that flight doesn’t show. The Sunday is a early morning 737 that’s all it offers. So maybe a glitch in the system

[davidjohnson6]

Reading about TUI (not just the UK airline, but the parent company, TUI AG) doing some sort of deal with Enter Air of Poland to provide wet leased aircraft. Details seem very vague at the moment. Does anybody understand what this really means ?
https://www.aerotelegraph.com/tui-und-enter-air-gruenden-eigenen-wet-lease-anbieter
https://www.pasazer.com/news/463764/enter,air,i,tui,stworza,wspolna,firme,zajmie,sie,wynajmem,sa molotow.html

[Yeehaw22]

Reading about TUI (not just the UK airline, but the parent company, TUI AG) doing some sort of deal with Enter Air of Poland to provide wet leased aircraft. Details seem very vague at the moment. Does anybody understand what this really means ?
https://www.aerotelegraph.com/tui-und-enter-air-gruenden-eigenen-wet-lease-anbieter
https://www.pasazer.com/news/463764/enter,air,i,tui,stworza,wspolna,firme,zajmie,sie,wynajmem,sa molotow.html

Enter air starting new wet lease airline on the Irish reg. TUI to be minority shareholder. Will provide aircraft to TUI for summer months.

[Cazza_fly]

Enter air starting new wet lease airline on the Irish reg. TUI to be minority shareholder. Will provide aircraft to TUI for summer months. 4 x 738.

It will be named Fly4... It won't solely just operate for the TUI Airline group, but they'll pretty much have the exclusive rights to the aircraft during the peak summer months. It's basically a way of having more control on the contract and quality of the peak summer lease-ins that they have now. As they grow, I'd expect the likes of Smartlynx et al to not be included in the TUI summer plans for example.

Atleast 3 of the initial 4, Fly4 (TUI) aircraft, are expected to be ex-TUI Airline group planes. 2x ex-TUI Airways and 1x ex-TUI fly Belgium so far.

[Matt995]

1755 LGW-MAH on a Sunday in the TUI Summer 2024 schedule. Is this is a 787?
Can’t seem to work it out via any method.

shows as a B787-8 in short haul configuration at present.

[samj]

shows as a B787-8 in short haul configuration at present.

thanks for the confirmation. I guessed as much by the 1 hour 15 turnaround compared to the 1 hour for the rest of the weeks flights at Mahon

[Markushillman]

It will be named Fly4... It won't solely just operate for the TUI Airline group, but they'll pretty much have the exclusive rights to the aircraft during the peak summer months. It's basically a way of having more control on the contract and quality of the peak summer lease-ins that they have now. As they grow, I'd expect the likes of Smartlynx et al to not be included in the TUI summer plans for example.

Atleast 3 of the initial 4, Fly4 (TUI) aircraft, are expected to be ex-TUI Airline group planes. 2x ex-TUI Airways and 1x ex-TUI fly Belgium so far.

So pretty much who will be replacing Sunwing from now on for the summer seasonal bases ie Belfast, Norwich etc

[GBYAJ]

Hi, was watching NCL movements this week as was flying back with TUI yesterday. On Wednesday G-TAWV went tech in AYT and passengers appeared to have been flown back to MAN. G-FDZS positioned in to operate 2 flights and then appears to have been parked up since early Friday morning with G-TAWW picking up the program on Friday. Just out of interest does anyone know what happened to TAWV as it seems to have gone back to LTN for repairs and is anything wrong with FDZS??? Thanks in advance

[Buster the Bear]

It will be named Fly4... It won't solely just operate for the TUI Airline group, but they'll pretty much have the exclusive rights to the aircraft during the peak summer months. It's basically a way of having more control on the contract and quality of the peak summer lease-ins that they have now. As they grow, I'd expect the likes of Smartlynx et al to not be included in the TUI summer plans for example.

Atleast 3 of the initial 4, Fly4 (TUI) aircraft, are expected to be ex-TUI Airline group planes. 2x ex-TUI Airways and 1x ex-TUI fly Belgium so far.


Slowly transfer airframes to the new entity and gradually close TUI (the airline down) over the longer term?

[LiamNCL]

Hi, was watching NCL movements this week as was flying back with TUI yesterday. On Wednesday G-TAWV went tech in AYT and passengers appeared to have been flown back to MAN. G-FDZS positioned in to operate 2 flights and then appears to have been parked up since early Friday morning with G-TAWW picking up the program on Friday. Just out of interest does anyone know what happened to TAWV as it seems to have gone back to LTN for repairs and is anything wrong with FDZS??? Thanks in advance

FDZS Positions to LTN today

[loopylee]

Slowly transfer airframes to the new entity and gradually close TUI (the airline down) over the longer term?

In one word No!

It's simply to provide extra capacity during the summer months and to have more control over it.

[Sparrow959]

In one word No!

It's simply to provide extra capacity during the summer months and to have more control over it.

I’d say that this is the beginning of the end of Tui sadly.

[Cazza_fly]

I’d say that this is the beginning of the end of Tui sadly.

I'd say you dont have a clue how seasonal charter flying works. Especially for a company as big as TUI. In no way shape or form are they ever going to get rid of TUI Airlines, which are a major and huge part of the TUI operation and overall experience. The airline is actually very profitable for the organisation. TUI and its predecessors have hired in airlines and wet leased in frames in the summer months for many many years. The only difference in recent times is that they plan to have them for longer periods, generally based in the UK (or other respective TUI operating country) rather than flying in on W type patterns. They also have more say on the inflight services, down to having their own crew and branding usually too. Thats not to say these operators dont come with their faults. However, a way of improving this experience going forward for the busier summer months, TUI have decided to invest in a partner where they can have more say in its operation and keep tighter control. If anything its a very positive move. TUI need the uplift in seats in the peak summer months and its either this way or they get more planes of their own, to just park up in the winter losing money every second. Not very business savvy that is it. This way the wet-lease operation can get business elsewhere or take the risk themself of parking up their planes.

[davidjohnson6]

Why will the new TUI - Enter Air joint venture airline be able to secure wet lease contracts during the period from November to March, but the various TUI airlines (UK, DE, BE, NL, etc..) would not be able to do so ? Is this purely down to lower labour costs in Poland, or is there more to it than this ?

[mart901]

Had it actually been confirmed anywhere that TUI will use this proposed venture to operate any UK flights?

[Cazza_fly]

Had it actually been confirmed anywhere that TUI will use this proposed venture to operate any UK flights?

It's been confirmed that it will initially be operated in the UK and Ireland. The aircraft are expected to be on the Irish aircraft register also.

[Sean North]

I'd say you dont have a clue how seasonal charter flying works. Especially for a company as big as TUI. In no way shape or form are they ever going to get rid of TUI Airlines, which are a major and huge part of the TUI operation and overall experience. The airline is actually very profitable for the organisation. TUI and its predecessors have hired in airlines and wet leased in frames in the summer months for many many years. The only difference in recent times is that they plan to have them for longer periods, generally based in the UK (or other respective TUI operating country) rather than flying in on W type patterns. They also have more say on the inflight services, down to having their own crew and branding usually too. Thats not to say these operators dont come with their faults. However, a way of improving this experience going forward for the busier summer months, TUI have decided to invest in a partner where they can have more say in its operation and keep tighter control. If anything its a very positive move. TUI need the uplift in seats in the peak summer months and its either this way or they get more planes of their own, to just park up in the winter losing money every second. Not very business savvy that is it. This way the wet-lease operation can get business elsewhere or take the risk themself of parking up their planes.


Whilst this is not wrong, it is overstated. TUI has 20 fewer aircraft in Summer 2023 than it did Summer 2019. Most of those reductions are in shorthaul aircraft. Short haul demand has also returned to pre-pandemic levels. There is certainly room to acquire new short-haul aircraft

[Sean North]

Does anyone know which 787s are in SH configuration? I tried looking on FR24 but they're so all over the place it could be any

[azz767]

Does anyone know which 787s are in SH configuration? I tried looking on FR24 but they're so all over the place it could be any

G-TUIB/D/F

[Sean North]

I'd love to know how much extra those 20 odd seats generate on the short-haul 787 given the alternative avoid 75% refund of entire flight for premium pax when subbing one onto LH and the possibility of selling a European premium product (more legroom and a free meal deal from the onboard café)

[manchesterflyer2]

I'd love to know how much extra those 20 odd seats generate on the short-haul 787 given the alternative avoid 75% refund of entire flight for premium pax when subbing one onto LH and the possibility of selling a European premium product (more legroom and a free meal deal from the onboard café)


The vast majority of passengers on TUI planes have purchased a package holiday. If you average a week in the Sun at say around £1k per person, those 25 seats doing 2 rotations a day on 3 aircraft adds up to £150k additional revenue per day. That adds up to quite a lot over a peak summer holiday period.

[CabinCrewe]

How many average punters with TUI pay £1K pp for 7 days? Id be wanting chauffeur driven for that.

[manchesterflyer2]

“Around” being the operative word - some may pay £500pp for a self catering break in Palma, some will be spending £1500pp for a honeymoon in a 5* resort in Rhodes… the point is that 25 extra seats is a lot of potential extra revenue in the peak summer season. And each of those 25 extra passengers will spend money on board, some of them may purchase an excursion in resort, some of them may purchase insurance or foreign currency in a retail store.. etc.

[davidjpowell]

Random question. P&O Cruises often use Tui for chucking people out to their Caribbean sailings. Can anyone see any spare 787's around the 10/11th of November? P&O say they are sorting out timings. I'm a but dubious that this has not been sorted and that they are perhaps trying to find someone with a spare plan somewhere..

[Wycombe]

Random question. P&O Cruises often use Tui for chucking people out to their Caribbean sailings. Can anyone see any spare 787's around the 10/11th of November? P&O say they are sorting out timings. I'm a but dubious that this has not been sorted and that they are perhaps trying to find someone with a spare plan somewhere..
I'm due to fly (with family) LGW-BGI on a Tui charter for P&O on 18th Nov, so am interested in what's going on (or not) here? We have been given Tui flight no's so far!

[UnderASouthernSky]

Random question. P&O Cruises often use Tui for chucking people out to their Caribbean sailings. Can anyone see any spare 787's around the 10/11th of November? P&O say they are sorting out timings. I'm a but dubious that this has not been sorted and that they are perhaps trying to find someone with a spare plan somewhere..

If take up was low, could they be buying time before potentially cancelling aome bookings? Or would they still charter an aircraft even if it were half full?

[double-oscar]

Currently, on the 10th, there appears to be two TUI flights operating LGW-BGI, TOM012 and TOM026, perhaps they haven’t decided who travels on which one. There appears to be one flight on the 11th. Again on the 18th, there are two flights operating LGW-BGI, TOM010 and TOM098. Hopefully, things will be a little clearer nearer the time.

[Wycombe]

If take up was low, could they be buying time before potentially cancelling aome bookings? Or would they still charter an aircraft even if it were half full?

From looking at availability the cruise we are joining on the 18th appears pretty well-booked. But a bit like airlines, there is a lot of smoke and mirrors in the booking engine.

Typically, there a flights from several UK points to join these cruises. For our one, people also fly out the previous day, as the ship overnights in Barbados before we get on. The same happens at the end, where we have a night alongside before we get off (the ship carries around 3,600 pax, so a lot of flights to get everyone to and from the UK on a turnaround! P&O also have 2 big ships in the Carribean this winter!).

Last winter season there were lots of disgruntled pax venting their disatisfation on various fora due to plentiful aircraft substitutions to the likes of Wamos (with no IFE on their 330's).

P&O also have a big contract with BA and it's not uncommon to find yourself on one of these schedules if the charters are full. The Tui service on their flights is similar to the BA scheduled offering with IFE, food and drink included etc.

Guess we wait and see!

[vectisman]

In addition BA last winter operated regular 777 cruise charters to Bridgetown in addition to their scheduled services. I believe this is also happening in Winter 2023/2024.

[brian70]

I'm looking at trying to get a holiday to Malta from Manchester in August 24 but can only book up to 28th May at the moment, any idea when the remainder of the summer season will go on sale?

[Matt995]

I'm looking at trying to get a holiday to Malta from Manchester in August 24 but can only book up to 28th May at the moment, any idea when the remainder of the summer season will go on sale?

maybe because TUI Airways don't have any direct flights to Malta on behalf of TUI Holidays, only P&O cruise ship flights.

The TUI Malta holiday flights are all on Easyjet from Manchester, maybe Easyjet haven't loaded their schedules yet from the end of May, or don't want any TUI passengers on their flights from June because they are using the flights for Easyjet Holidays instead?

[MANFAN]

I'm looking at trying to get a holiday to Malta from Manchester in August 24 but can only book up to 28th May at the moment, any idea when the remainder of the summer season will go on sale?

TUI only offer flights as part of a P&O (or other companies) cruise packages from Manchester.

I just looked at the EasyJet app and they have flights loaded up until June next year…usually around October they will start loading flights for the remainder of the summer season.