TUI airways-2

[SJL26779]

TUI only offer flights as part of a P&O (or other companies) cruise packages from Manchester.

I just looked at the EasyJet app and they have flights loaded up until June next year…usually around October they will start loading flights for the remainder of the summer season.

Flights go on sale this thursday for departure dates up to 1st September 2024

[dmouse88]

What happened with BY490 LGW - NBE on the 11/9/2023. Was this originally a tech delay on G-Tawk which extended and would have put crew out of hours even though they had a replacement a/f G-Tawp causing an 11 hour departure delay. Was finding another crew part of the problem?

[Matt5]

Any info on what happened with TUID last night? Seems to have gone from BHX to PFO and not returned. Sadly that was our ride to Tenerife early this morning so we’ve been delayed by 24hrs.

Credit where it’s due to the lovely lady at the desk at Birmingham, who was having to deal with some most unpleasant behaviour off other passengers that were not at all happy.

[OltonPete]

Any info on what happened with TUID last night? Seems to have gone from BHX to PFO and not returned. Sadly that was our ride to Tenerife early this morning so we’ve been delayed by 24hrs.

Credit where it’s due to the lovely lady at the desk at Birmingham, who was having to deal with some most unpleasant behaviour off other passengers that were not at all happy.

The base is in a mess once again and I would imagine any TUI staff or Swissport staff will be having a difficult day

G-TUID - stuck in Paphos overnight - inbound on TUI-com shows on time - really. However BHX have it due 01.00 tomorrow
G-TAWM - stuck in Las Palmas overnight - inbound shows on time on TUI.com. - BHX have it due 02.00 tomorrow
C-GFEH - Sunwing grounded 11 hours BHX

Tenerife - ops Tomorrow as per Matt5 - TUI.com shows on time outbound
Zante - ? This morning is yet to depart - per TUI.com it doesn't exist. BHX shows due out 07:25 but doesn't say which day

Hurghada and Mahon outbound this afternoon delayed

Smartlynx A320 due to position in from Manchester shortly.

Is there any point to the arrivals and departures page on their website if it is not properly updated, it is something what you would expect from the 1980's Politburo :)

Pete

[Matt5]

The base is in a mess once again and I would imagine any TUI staff or Swissport staff will be having a difficult day

Quite so Pete.

We have been put up at the Hilton overnight, and been advised that we have the same 06:25 flight tomorrow morning, whether that is on the same 788 that is on the ground in Pafos I’m not sure. I notice that the estimated departure time for that has already gone from 16:00 to 23:00.

From what I gathered speaking to TUI staff at the airport they were also dealing with a diversion in from Bournemouth too.

Not a great day all round, and not the best communication from TUI directly either. Once again, I have to give credit to their staff at the airport who for the most part were great in the face of a challenging morning. I do hope TUI realise their worth.

[BOHEuropean]

From what I gathered speaking to TUI staff at the airport they were also dealing with a diversion in from Bournemouth too.

TUI had quite the day yesterday in Bournemouth. The first rotation in the morning had a bird strike. A Sunwing from CWL positioned after sunset and flew the passengers out 14 hours late (they spent the day in a hotel in Bournemouth). The return flight operated into CWL instead of BOH. A replacement TUI 737 came in to do the afternoon sector but that went a few hours late and diverted to BHX, which is the one you mention above. Whilst this was happening, 2x TUI 738s diverted to BOH from LGW as well and were on the ground quite some time before they were able to position back to LGW.

[MARKEYD]

Yes indeed it was a busy day at BOH

In the afternoon / early evening there was 4 TUI B738 on the ramp

[GeorgeNTravels]

GLA once again being impacted by 787 ops.

G-TUIH from CUN was cancelled on Wednesday night departing.

As a result G-TUIJ was flown in empty from Manchester to cover the PMI and ACE 788 flights on Thursday.

TUIH flew in from Cancun this morning. As a result TUIJ went back to MAN, this is where it gets weird.

G-TUIA flew up to GLA from MAN to operate todays MLB, and TUIH flew empty from GLA to NCL to operate a CUN.

Anybody know why they didn’t just fly TUIA to NCL and keep TUIH in GLA?

[Jamesair1]

There could be technical or operational reasons involved in the decision

[OltonPete]

Quite so Pete.

We have been put up at the Hilton overnight, and been advised that we have the same 06:25 flight tomorrow morning, whether that is on the same 788 that is on the ground in Pafos I’m not sure. I notice that the estimated departure time for that has already gone from 16:00 to 23:00.

From what I gathered speaking to TUI staff at the airport they were also dealing with a diversion in from Bournemouth too.

Not a great day all round, and not the best communication from TUI directly either. Once again, I have to give credit to their staff at the airport who for the most part were great in the face of a challenging morning. I do hope TUI realise their worth.

You probably won't appreciate this but you are probably one of the lucky ones, Midlands meltdown is probably a bit excessive but chaotic for sure or just unlucky, I will let the reader decide.

Your aircraft is still in Paphos approaching 24 hours late

The next flight for this aircraft, this evenings Burgas is now a coach to Manchester for a 14:00 departure tomorrow? Most accept delays but seriously is that the best they can offer the passenger in mid September or the most convenient or cheapest option for them?

G-TAWM Still in Las Palmas now showing 11:05 tomorrow around 33 hours late

Sunwing back in service at BHX after 17 hours on the ground left 2 hours late to Larnaca

Zante from this morning operating from BHX 24 hours late same as the 788 to Tenerife

Smartlynx positioned down from Manchester (correction from Brussels) to operate the Mahon and is just departing after 4:30 on the ground now 7 hours late - The Manchester aircraft was G-TUKM which came to BHX and has done nothing showing cancelled to TFS tomorrow

Another Sunwing aircraft flew EMA - Ibiza this morning and has not returned and the outbound EMA - Palma cancelled

Further afield

Manchester - Punts Cana cancelled, Reus TOM2523 8:30 late, TOM2532 15:35 departing 08:20 tomorrow and TOM2570 to Heraklion - nothing showing

Gatwick has about 5 aircraft between 2-3 hours late but that might be counted as a success these days:)

Without any apparent major ATC disruption or weather issues (there must be some in that lot other than LGW) the above is one heck of a list - probably a bit unfair listing Gatwick. Manchester has a 763 on the ground for 3 days, a 788 for 15 hours and a 789 for 4 hours, plus a Smartlynx and Getjet so crew hours does seem a major issue

Pete

[Matt5]

Well that 24hr delay has now gone to a 35hr one for us, message at 22:00 last night saying flight TOM7548 has been delayed again from 06:25 to 17:30.

I go back to a very apt point you’ve made Pete, is this really the best they can do, or is it the best option for them.

In the face of effectively losing a quarter of a 7 day holiday, we’re beginning to wonder if it’s even worth it at all.

TUID due to land in BHX around 04:00 so I can only assume from my hotel room that either it’s off somewhere else after, or they’re struggling for crew to operate it.

[OltonPete]

Well that 24hr delay has now gone to a 35hr one for us, message at 22:00 last night saying flight TOM7548 has been delayed again from 06:25 to 17:30.

I go back to a very apt point you’ve made Pete, is this really the best they can do, or is it the best option for them.

In the face of effectively losing a quarter of a 7 day holiday, we’re beginning to wonder if it’s even worth it at all.

TUID due to land in BHX around 04:00 so I can only assume from my hotel room that either it’s off somewhere else after, or they’re struggling for crew to operate it.

That is shocking and it all has to be crew hours now as spare aircraft all over the place. Manchester has 5 aircraft (2 third party) in for over 5 hours and BHX one.

Smartwings is operating the East Mids Palma from today at 15:00 tomorrow so maybe they are sourcing aircraft now

Pete

[aerotech07]

I go back to a very apt point you’ve made Pete, is this really the best they can do, or is it the best option for them.

In the face of effectively losing a quarter of a 7 day holiday, we’re beginning to wonder if it’s even worth it at all.

Surely by this point you'd have the right to cancel your holiday for a full refund? And book for something else rather than wasting the holiday you've paid for in a Birmingham Hilton?

​​​​​I guess time off work etc would be an issue if this is your week off, but it's certainly something I would look at in your situation.

[Matt5]

Surely by this point you'd have the right to cancel your holiday for a full refund? And book for something else rather than wasting the holiday you've paid for in a Birmingham Hilton?

​​​​​I guess time off work etc would be an issue if this is your week off, but it's certainly something I would look at in your situation.

As far as I’m aware that right is available when the flight is delayed more than a handful of hours.

The dilemma is though we’re in a situation where the goalposts keep moving as we’ve had our flight cancelled, and then the replacement cancelled too. After the first 24hr delay you think about it, and then accept that you lose a day off your holiday, these things happen, you’ll claim the compensation and still enjoy the best part of 6 days. Then the second delay comes and by that point you’re already there and waiting anyway. With the benefit of hindsight knowing you’re looking at 35hrs+ delay you might look at it differently.

Plus, as you say there’s holiday time booked off work etc.

It would be interesting to know that as they’ve cancelled our flight number twice now, whether we would be eligible to claim two lots of delays.

It appears that TUIC is coming to our rescue, but that’s got to do a MAN to IBZ return and then reposition to BHX in order for that to happen, and it was an hour late leaving MAN on the first leg, so let’s just see how that goes. On the face of it not a lot of moving parts but on yesterday’s form, who knows.

I would have thought a more robust plan would have been to bus us up to MAN and depart from there, but then I’m sure that people much more knowledgeable than I am would highlight why that isn’t so.

[OltonPete]

As far as I’m aware that right is available when the flight is delayed more than a handful of hours.

The dilemma is though we’re in a situation where the goalposts keep moving as we’ve had our flight cancelled, and then the replacement cancelled too. After the first 24hr delay you think about it, and then accept that you lose a day off your holiday, these things happen, you’ll claim the compensation and still enjoy the best part of 6 days. Then the second delay comes and by that point you’re already there and waiting anyway. With the benefit of hindsight knowing you’re looking at 35hrs+ delay you might look at it differently.

Plus, as you say there’s holiday time booked off work etc.

It would be interesting to know that as they’ve cancelled our flight number twice now, whether we would be eligible to claim two lots of delays.

It appears that TUIC is coming to our rescue, but that’s got to do a MAN to IBZ return and then reposition to BHX in order for that to happen, and it was an hour late leaving MAN on the first leg, so let’s just see how that goes. On the face of it not a lot of moving parts but on yesterday’s form, who knows.

I would have thought a more robust plan would have been to bus us up to MAN and depart from there, but then I’m sure that people much more knowledgeable than I am would highlight why that isn’t so.

It doesn’t get any better, the Zante has already been pushed back again as well. They decided to fly the spare aircraft empty to Salzburg rather than Zante to operate the last inbound Manchester.Priceless. The logic will be why delay another 189 pax and alienate them and pay more compensation rather than get the Zante pax to their destination earlier when their holiday is ruined already.

I am sure TUI ops are working their backsides off trying to get things sorted but it just looks like they are trying to do it on the cheap and not for the passengers benefit which is possibly harsh. It is mid September I am surprised they have not been able to sub in aircraft. Did they ask Jet2 to use their spare aircraft at BHX (somehow pride probably prevented that) but of course we will never know the issues ops are having. From the outside looking in it looks a total and utter mess but no doubt a different story the other way round.

I would not get a coach anywhere unless on the way back from holiday and needed to get home as they have proved without doubt they can’t be trusted. Always contentious as well as it is not always done for the passenger’s benefit.

Pete

[GBYAJ]

Randomly I noticed that during this BHX melt down TUML a based BHX 73M is swopping with NCL based TUMK this morning in ALC. while this will be for “operational” reasons wonder if TUML needs some attention that the NCL based engineers can give it or is it the other way around with TUMK needing attention in BHX??? I know we’ll never know but just seemed an unnecessary complication from my arm chair ops position!

[OltonPete]

I would not get a coach anywhere unless on the way back from holiday and needed to get home as they have proved without doubt they can’t be trusted. Always contentious as well as it is not always done for the passenger’s benefit.

Pete

The Burgas which has been coached away for a 15:00 departure from Manchester is now showing 18:00 on a Privilege Style B772 which operated MAN-RHO-MAN arriving back in the early hours and clearly the same crew waiting to come back into hours. I suppose still a success as around 24 hours late compare to Zante nearly 30 hours and Tenerife 34 hours but of course the clocking is still running on those two.

Zante is ironically on the aircraft that arrived from Manchester yesterday evening which would not have been able to operate then due ZTH opening hours and is running a bit late on an Ibiza morning rotation but all other morning departures have gone keeping the Smartlynx A320 rather than going back to Brussels. All should be back on track at BHX by tomorrow morning.

Pete

[Matt5]

It doesn’t get any better, the Zante has already been pushed back again as well. They decided to fly the spare aircraft empty to Salzburg rather than Zante to operate the last inbound Manchester.Priceless. The logic will be why delay another 189 pax and alienate them and pay more compensation rather than get the Zante pax to their destination earlier when their holiday is ruined already.

I am sure TUI ops are working their backsides off trying to get things sorted but it just looks like they are trying to do it on the cheap and not for the passengers benefit which is possibly harsh.

Yes I’d heard about the Zante delay also, they’re held up in the same hotel we are.

Similar situation that you mention with the spare aircraft to Salzburg as us, TUID arrived in BHX in time to be able to get us to TFS on the first rescheduled flight (the one TUKM was brought in for, but ended up doing nothing), but it flew a Palma instead.

Don’t get me wrong, I wouldn’t wish for knock on delays and upset to anyone else’s holiday or travel plans at my expense, but it certainly feels we (and others like the Zante flight) are suffering further at the expense of not alienating others, as you’ve appropriately said.

I like to consider myself a reasonable and level headed person, I do not blame TUI for circumstances beyond their control like aircraft going tech, but I do blame them for not doing enough to get people where they are meant to be, it’s been over a day since we should have been at our destination, surely by now there should have been an aircraft chartered in to get people on their holidays, but I guess it’s all about the cost.

[SWBKCB]

It may be an unexpected consequence of EU261 - it's cheaper to have one big delay than pay out on lots of medium delays

[Bradley Hardacre]

Would FR have any spare aircraft and crew for a sub charter?

[pabely]

Would FR have any spare aircraft and crew for a sub charter?
Probably but not in their business model to do such a thing. More likely Titan but with one of their aircraft at SEN getting a new paint, that option is not available.

[Bradley Hardacre]

That does rather answer the question of why they haven't subbed in Titan, but huge delays and ruined holidays don't seem to be any sort of business model. The FR product and TUI short-haul are identical apart from TUI's cabin crew being slightly more mature.

[Kc4475]

G-TAWH returned to manc today not sure what the problem was.

[Matt5]

Update on the holiday delay from hell here at BHX….

TUIC finally on the way from MAN after a 3rd delay. Pax staying at the Hilton had to get their own taxis back to the airport as the coach TUI sent never turned up. Been sitting at the gate for over an hour now for a plane that’s only just took off.

Thick end of 40hrs delay all told, and that is if the plane takes off at the latest advertised time.

[ZULUBOY]

Update on the holiday delay from hell here at BHX….

TUIC finally on the way from MAN after a 3rd delay. Pax staying at the Hilton had to get their own taxis back to the airport as the coach TUI sent never turned up. Been sitting at the gate for over an hour now for a plane that’s only just took off.

Thick end of 40hrs delay all told, and that is if the plane takes off at the latest advertised time.

Fingers crossed for you

[chinapattern]

Think EasyJet might find themselves picking up a lot of disgruntled TUI customers from BHX next year.

[Charley B]

Update on the holiday delay from hell here at BHX….

TUIC finally on the way from MAN after a 3rd delay. Pax staying at the Hilton had to get their own taxis back to the airport as the coach TUI sent never turned up. Been sitting at the gate for over an hour now for a plane that’s only just took off.

Thick end of 40hrs delay all told, and that is if the plane takes off at the latest advertised time.
Hope when you finally get there,you have a nice holiday ….surely they could have got in Wamos or similar to clear these awful delays ..short here and some bad delays at Gatwick too .nothing to do with the tower problem the other day ..some are horrid delays ..last year multiple Wamos were here..one wonders if they fell out with them as not seen since .
They are forever positioning aircraft here from Man and BHX ..always trying to play catch up

[Bradley Hardacre]

Think EasyJet might find themselves picking up a lot of disgruntled TUI customers from BHX next year.

Why not FR? They are more established, having had the base at BHX for 15 years and a focus on punctuality. I remember when Thomson/Britannia tried to compete in the "low fares" market by inventing Thomsonfly which was based at CVT and was, I believe very popular with the passengers, but the powers that be decided it wasn't core business and decided to concentrate on the 1970s IT/Charter model which may well have worked in the 1970s but is not up to scratch in the 21st century with the current huge demand for air travel leading to congested airports and ever more restrictive ATC flow rates leading to crew FTL issues and no margin or flexibility for tech, staff shortages or weather problems - the business model is flawed.
Delaying is the easy option operationally, but securing seats on a scheduled carrier or actively sourcing capacity with an ACMI operator, scheduled airline or alternatively a Low Cost carrier has got to be in the best interests of the customers rather than leaving them to spend the first night or two of their holiday in the Hilton Garden at BHX,LGW or MAN. Get them away on FR, Easy, BA or Jet2 asap!

[pabely]

Why not FR? They are more established, having had the base at BHX for 15 years and a focus on punctuality. I remember when Thomson/Britannia tried to compete in the "low fares" market by inventing Thomsonfly which was based at CVT and was, I believe very popular with the passengers, but the powers that be decided it wasn't core business and decided to concentrate on the 1970s IT/Charter model which may well have worked in the 1970s but is not up to scratch in the 21st century with the current huge demand for air travel leading to congested airports and ever more restrictive ATC flow rates leading to crew FTL issues and no margin or flexibility for tech, staff shortages or weather problems - the business model is flawed.
Delaying is the easy option operationally, but securing seats on a scheduled carrier or actively sourcing capacity with an ACMI operator, scheduled airline or alternatively a Low Cost carrier has got to be in the best interests of the customers rather than leaving them to spend the first night or two of their holiday in the Hilton Garden at BHX,LGW or MAN. Get them away on FR, Easy, BA or Jet2 asap!
And how do the majority of TUI Holidays customers connect with their coaches to their hotels? It is not that easy.

[Matt5]

We are finally on the ground in Tenerife now! Just a quick word of thanks to all who have been kind enough to offer information along the way in regards to what is happening.

[OltonPete]

And how do the majority of TUI Holidays customers connect with their coaches to their hotels? It is not that easy.

Coaches can be found very easily if the airline really wants to and although a different scenario as it is at the UK end but ask the passengers on the Burgas - BHX flight 24 hours late and now heading for Gatwick and a coach journey in the middle of the night back to BHX and on a separate point, how have they managed to get an extra Gatwick night slot.

I can’t believe how low this company has sunk over the last two days, they should be ashamed of themselves and the CAA should be asking them why they are not flying passengers to their intended destination rather than an alternative when the only reason it it is operationally convenient for them and not weather, ATC or night closure. The fact it is Privilege Style is irrelevant as it is a TUI flight and scheduled to land at BHX. As for the Tenerife it is something when the best thing you can say it operated from the correct airport.q No doubt the aircraft will be flying a Gatwick TUI flight in the morning.

Pete

[Charley B]

Coaches can be found very easily if the airline really wants to and although a different scenario as it is at the UK end but ask the passengers on the Burgas - BHX flight 24 hours late and now heading for Gatwick and a coach journey in the middle of the night back to BHX and on a separate point, how have they managed to get an extra Gatwick night slot.

I can’t believe how low this company has sunk over the last two days, they should be ashamed of themselves and the CAA should be asking them why they are not flying passengers to their intended destination rather than an alternative when the only reason it it is operationally convenient for them and not weather, ATC or night closure. The fact it is Privilege Style is irrelevant as it is a TUI flight and scheduled to land at BHX. As for the Tenerife it is something when the best thing you can say it operated from the correct airport.q No doubt the aircraft will be flying a Gatwick TUI flight in the morning.

Pete
yes,Paphos at 6.40 for the Privilege Style aircraft ..FR24 is showing it going to BHX first ..we will see 🙄….G-TAWK has just left LGW on a positioning flight to MAN too

[chinapattern]

Why not FR?

Because there are many who for various reasons prefer to book a package holiday. EasyJet will also be offering a few destinations that Ryanair (and Jet2 for that matter) don’t serve so will be directly competing with TUI.

[ATNotts]

The fiasco this weekend really needs the attention of the 'usual suspects' in UK consumer broadcasting.

If some low cost carriers, particularly Wizz had mucked customers around to the same extent the coverage would likely have been quite high profile and pretty savage.

[Bradley Hardacre]

Because there are many who for various reasons prefer to book a package holiday. EasyJet will also be offering a few destinations that Ryanair (and Jet2 for that matter) don’t serve so will be directly competing with TUI.
Indeed, but many packages include flights by scheduled operators

[Bradley Hardacre]

And how do the majority of TUI Holidays customers connect with their coaches to their hotels? It is not that easy.
errr, if you sub in another carrier it will arrive at the scheduled time with the booked load....

[Charley B]

The fiasco this weekend really needs the attention of the 'usual suspects' in UK consumer broadcasting.

If some low cost carriers, particularly Wizz had mucked customers around to the same extent the coverage would likely have been quite high profile and pretty savage.

The Tui Complaints Facebook page and their Twitter page is certainly interesting reading ..they really need to get their act together quickly……apparently the Privilege Style aircraft passengers were still awaiting coaches to BHX 4 hours ago ..4 coaches short after over 24 hrs delay ..unacceptable 😡

[Cazza_fly]

The Tui Complaints Facebook page and their Twitter page is certainly interesting reading ..they really need to get their act together quickly……apparently the Privilege Style aircraft passengers were still awaiting coaches to BHX 4 hours ago ..4 coaches short after over 24 hrs delay ..unacceptable 😡

The 787s are really knackered out at TUI (and nost other airlines in fairness. BA for example really habe huge issues with theirs too). They need to stop using them on short haul as they are not suited to these types of ops. Especially in the busy charter summer schedules. Gone are the days of the versatile 757/767 operations that were very well suited to operating in this manner and switching up between shorthaul and longhaul ops very easily. Britannia / Thomson used to pride themselves on being one of, if not the most punctual airlines in the UK / Europe.

If TUI are going to continue to want mass uplift capacity in the summer to European destinations ising the 787s, the only way to alleviate this mass disruption is to schedule even longer downtime between each flight or ensure more 787s are scheduled on standby each day, which is really inefficient.

But as you and others say... something really has to be looked at at this operation as its really not sustainable.

[Jamie236]

Interesting that easyjet haven’t released the Birmingham flight only option for summer 24 yet and they have for all other bases. They have suggested they’re going after package holiday customer from BHX

[WHBM]

the CAA should be asking them why they are not flying passengers to their intended destination rather than an alternative when the only reason it it is operationally convenient for them and not weather, ATC or night closure.

Used to be that the CAA were hot on this sort of thing, and would scrutinise closely "Not having the resources to run their operation". Even more so on scheduled flights (which effectively all are now). Carriers would have to subcharter in at considerable expense to avoid such scrutiny. It's not apparent when, or why, the CAA gave this up.

The CAA were also completely up to speed with penetrating airline excuses. "Tech delay" turning out to be not having straightforward spares, or On Stop with the supplier, so funds had to be wired through before parts were released. "Weather delay", when airport and aircraft were perfectly ILS capable, and within minimums, but one of the crew was out of currency on it. They used to spot all that.

[OltonPete]

The 787s are really knackered out at TUI (and nost other airlines in fairness. BA for example really habe huge issues with theirs too). They need to stop using them on short haul as they are not suited to these types of ops. Especially in the busy charter summer schedules. Gone are the days of the versatile 757/767 operations that were very well suited to operating in this manner and switching up between shorthaul and longhaul ops very easily. Britannia / Thomson used to pride themselves on being one of, if not the most punctual airlines in the UK / Europe.

If TUI are going to continue to want mass uplift capacity in the summer to European destinations ising the 787s, the only way to alleviate this mass disruption is to schedule even longer downtime between each flight or ensure more 787s are scheduled on standby each day, which is really inefficient.

But as you and others say... something really has to be looked at at this operation as its really not sustainable.

I can only comment from BHX and the 788/789 seems to have been no different to any other aircraft tech wise and most issues seem to revolve around delays (various reasons) and the knock on effects on crew duty hours. They have taken decisive action at BHX with the 787 short-haul schedule for next summer greatly reduced the flights by adding an extra 737 to the base instead which might improve matters especially if it doesn't involve Sunwing.

The irony this morning after the B772 re-routing to Gatwick, BHX ended up with 3 spare aircraft, one positioning empty to Palma, a Sunwing to EMA to cover for the tech aircraft still stuck in Ibiza and a 788 having the extra one sent extremely late yesterday afternoon from Manchester to cover the Friday Tenerife. BHX still had all 11 departures as per peak summer schedule so not as if flights had ended.

It seems all the issues happened on the wrong day, a Friday where the summer schedule is virtually still in full swing. If this had happened Monday-Thursday the results might have been different (short-haul not long-haul) but you can't gamble on that but I suppose unlucky to have so many issues in the space of a few hours.

I didn't realise that only one 763 isn't flying, was that planned or is "YK" tech at Manchester or just stood-down?

The most recent 737 addition to the fleet is also showing on the ground Manchester for 18 hours so aircraft shortages most days would appear not to be the issue and it is just general delays and the knock-on issues with crew hours (mixed in with some tech), which seem to have created this.

As for the 772 re-route to Gatwick, which was caused by the 16 hour turnaround at Manchester yesterday to operate the Friday BHX-BOJ was perhaps a little too tight for handling purposes:hmm:. I assume that there was more to this as 16 hours is well in excess for crew to be back in hours. I know I would not be a happy bunny if I was on the Burgas flights especially if travelling with under 4's knowing what had gone on in the last 48 hours.

It would be good to hear from someone within TUI to hear of some of the obstacles involved in recovering the schedule from Friday.

Pete

[Cazza_fly]

I didn't realise that only one 763 isn't flying, was that planned or is "YK" tech at Manchester or just stood-down?

Pete

YK had a recurring tech issue in MAN which means it only just returned to service again today. This meant the KGS currently has a 30 hour delay from yesterday as they planned it to back in service yesterday but it unfortunately wasn't. Statistically, despite only the 2x frames left, the 767s have still been better with their reliability overall than the 78s this summer despite their 25+ years strong service. I guess keeping them on shorthaul only ops has helped, but at the same time, this is more intense work.

[Charley B]

EC-MUA ..of Privilege Style still subbing for Tui at LGW ,and just arrived in Wamos A330 .EC-NYJ from MAD ..as TOM24P ,first Wamos here for quite a while for them
EC-MUA off to Kos tomorrow so both are needed .

[Sean North]

When I first mentioned TUI acquiring a relatively cheap 777 for Summer operations I was laughed at but they certainly appear to be making good use of the Privilege Style one. TUI should lease a 777 or 2 for the whole Summer season. It would allow 737 flights to be merged and free up aircraft, reducing the number of 737s chartered in.

[wowzz]

A lot of unhappy P&O cruise customers on social media at the moment, because their Manchester flights to the Caribbean this winter are now being operated by Maleth-Aero, using an A330, rather than a TUI 787.
I appreciate that aircraft can always be substituted, but given that these flights have been scheduled for months, why did TUI agree to run a charter for P&O when they knew they did not have an aircaft available ?

[Charley B]

When I first mentioned TUI acquiring a relatively cheap 777 for Summer operations I was laughed at but they certainly appear to be making good use of the Privilege Style one. TUI should lease a 777 or 2 for the whole Summer season. It would allow 737 flights to be merged and free up aircraft, reducing the number of 737s chartered in.
Definately agree ..maybe they should lease one from Air Tanker ….the Wamos aircraft that is here is one of their smarter ones …they are really overstretched aircraft wise now

[garry8g]

Definately agree ..maybe they should lease one from Air Tanker ….the Wamos aircraft that is here is one of their smarter ones …they are really overstretched aircraft wise now

Air Tanker don’t have 777’s.

[WHBM]

It is one of those airline conundrums that Fleet Planning will work out a particularly lean and efficient game plan with no slack, knowing that if they get into an AOG difficulty they can always subcharter in from the Spanish/Lithuanians, probably at less overall cost than having their own spare. Meanwhile the Finance team, working in a parallel universe, and maybe driven by commands from Germany (other owners are available) look at the simplistic cost per hour of subcharters and say "no more hiring in - do it with your own resources".

[Mr @ Spotty M]

wowzz, Its not only Manchester passengers using Maleth-Aero, also Gatwick passengers.
It has nothing to do with TUI however as Maleth-Aero have signed a deal with P&O to operate the flights this winter, basing a A330-200 aircraft at each airport.

[Albert Hall]

How is a Maltese airline getting traffic rights to fly UK-Barbados?

[southamptonavgeek]

Wet lease through URO as they have done with A346s in the past?

[Wycombe]

wowzz, Its not only Manchester passengers using Maleth-Aero, also Gatwick passengers.
It has nothing to do with TUI however as Maleth-Aero have signed a deal with P&O to operate the flights this winter, basing a A330-200 aircraft at each airport.

We're booked to fly LGW-BGI on 18th Nov to join P&O Britannia, and have (so far) been given a Tui flight no. Info we received suggests there are (or were) 2 Tui flights to join the ship from LGW that day.

No changes notified to us yet.

Is this P&O binning-off Tui after all the problems last winter?

Lots of disatisfaction being expressed on P&O passenger groups on FB as some people (so far at MAN) are being told of these changes and not happy to fly on "an airline they've never heard of with no IFE"

[wowzz]

We're booked to fly LGW-BGI on 18th Nov to join P&O Britannia, and have (so far) been given a Tui flight no. Info we received suggests there are (or were) 2 Tui flights to join the ship from LGW that day.

No changes notified to us yet.

Is this P&O binning-off Tui after all the problems last winter?

Lots of disatisfaction being expressed on P&O passenger groups on FB as some people (so far at MAN) are being told of these changes and not happy to fly on "an airline they've never heard of with no IFE"
I don't think it is so much P&O " binning off" TUI, more that TUI do not have sufficient capacity to deal with the passenger numbers.
I must admit that having booked PE seats to the Caribbean this December, on the expectation that I would be flying on a TUI 787, I would be mightily unimpressed to be switched to an A350 with a single class cabin and no IFE.

[Mr @ Spotty M]

Its all being arranged by UK-based aviation solutions firm Ford Aviation.Two Maleth Aero Airbus A330s will operate return flights from the UK to the Caribbean between November and March next year.

Flights will be from Gatwick and Manchester to Barbados and Antigua where passengers will join the ships Britannia and Arvia.

One of the wide-body A330-220 aircraft will be based at Gatwick and the other in Manchester for direct flights to the Caribbean islands.
Credits Travel Weekly.

[MANFAN]

How is it decided which passengers are allocated which flight?
6 of us are flying back from Barbados on 3rd November, there are 2 separate bookings and 2 of our party who made they own booking are not on our TUI flight…

[wowzz]

How is it decided which passengers are allocated which flight?
6 of us are flying back from Barbados on 3rd November, there are 2 separate bookings and 2 of our party who made they own booking are not on our TUI flight…
That is a very good question, but I doubt that anyone can answer it on here.

[davidjohnson6]

TUI in Germany becoming rather more strict on hand baggage. Wonder if this will happen in the UK as well ? Max 40x30x20 cm and no more than 2kg - or pay 10 euros for 55x40x20 cm.
https://www.aviation24.be/airlines/tui-aviation/tuifly/tuifly-to-strictly-limit-size-40-x-30-x-20-cm-and-weight-2-kg-of-hand-baggage (https://www.aviation24.be/airlines/tui-aviation/tuifly/tuifly-to-strictly-limit-size-40-x-30-x-20-cm-and-weight-2-kg-of-hand-baggage/)

[SWBKCB]

Flight only pax, not those on package holidays

[Jamie236]

Are any tui aircraft off to Canada this year or has that agreement finished now with the westjet purchase? I see the first sunwings aircraft went back yesterday

[Cazza_fly]

Are any tui aircraft off to Canada this year or has that agreement finished now with the westjet purchase? I see the first sunwings aircraft went back yesterday

Yes a number of TUI UK 737s (mix of NGs and MAXs) will head over this winter.

[FCAcrewboy]

Yes a number of TUI UK 737s (mix of NGs and MAXs) will head over this winter.

sadly this agreement has come to an end so no TUI G reg aircraft’s will go over to Canada this winter.

[CabinCrewe]

wonder if any 787s need any heavier checks over winter so they could finally get a respray, some of those with patched up Thomson paint overs look a right old mess. Though they probably hope with airbridges the standard punter won’t notice… you know what they say… ‘dirty house….’

[GBYAJ]

wonder if any 787s need any heavier checks over winter so they could finally get a respray, some of those with patched up Thomson paint overs look a right old mess. Though they probably hope with airbridges the standard punter won’t notice… you know what they say… ‘dirty house….’

I flew on TAWX this summer and the titles/paintwork was looking pretty ropey around the front door as we got on. Must have been bad as my wife commented on it!

[LiamNCL]

I flew on TAWX this summer and the titles/paintwork was looking pretty ropey around the front door as we got on. Must have been bad as my wife commented on it!

Yeah flew of WX just over a month ago and its a right mess where the patches have been put over. The 788's are really looking worn out now some are around 10 years old they are desperate for a lick of paint.

[Cazza_fly]

sadly this agreement has come to an end so no TUI G reg aircraft’s will go over to Canada this winter.

You're incorrect. Whilst it is coming to an end, there will be TUI Airways aircraft going across to Canada this winter.

[P330]

You're incorrect. Whilst it is coming to an end, there will be TUI Airways aircraft going across to Canada this winter.

So is this the last exchange? As I understand no Canadian aircraft are heading our way next year??

[Cazza_fly]

So is this the last exchange? As I understand no Canadian aircraft are heading our way next year??

That's correct. As it stands, there will be no more exchanges with the long running Sunwing seasonal agreement. Westjets plan is to fully integrate the Sunwing airline brand into theirs by the end of next summer at the latest.

[Matt995]

current aircraft allocation for Summer 2024 (based on August flights):-

B789 :- 2 x LGW, 2 x MAN, 1 x BHX (5 aircraft)

B788 :- 3 x LGW, 2 x MAN, 1 x BHX, 2 aircraft split between MAN (Mon/Tue/Thu), GLA (Wed-Mon), NCL (Fri-Wed) (8 aircraft)

B7M8 :- 6 x BRS, 5 x MAN, 3 x LGW, 3 x GLA, 3 x NCL, 2 x BHX, 1 x EMA (23 aircraft)

B738 :- 6 x BHX, 6 x MAN, 4 x LGW, 4 x EMA, 2 x BOH, 2 x CWL, 2 x NCL, 2 x STN, 1 x BFS, 1 x EXT, 1 x GLA, 1 x LTN, 1 x NWI (33 aircraft)

A320 :- 4 x LGW, 2 x BHX, 2 x DUB, 1 x CWL, 1 x EMA (10 aircraft)

this aircraft allocation indicates 5 new 737 Maxs to be delivered between now and summer, and at least 3 738's to be leased (Enter Air?) or purchased, and of course the usual mix of leased A320's from Avion Express, SmartLynx, Titan.

spare aircraft, possibly the same as this summer, 1 x 789, 2 x 738's, 2 x A320's?

[pabely]

Thought TUI & Air Enter were creating a JV called Fly4 as a vehicle to do the leased in aircraft and are starting the process of hire of crews already?

[JonnyH]

current aircraft allocation for Summer 2024 (based on August flights):-

B789 :- 2 x LGW, 2 x MAN, 1 x BHX (5 aircraft)

B788 :- 3 x LGW, 2 x MAN, 1 x BHX, 2 aircraft split between MAN (Mon/Tue/Thu), GLA (Wed-Mon), NCL (Fri-Wed) (8 aircraft)

B7M8 :- 6 x BRS, 5 x MAN, 3 x LGW, 3 x GLA, 3 x NCL, 2 x BHX, 1 x EMA (23 aircraft)

B738 :- 6 x BHX, 6 x MAN, 4 x LGW, 4 x EMA, 2 x BOH, 2 x CWL, 2 x NCL, 2 x STN, 1 x BFS, 1 x EXT, 1 x GLA, 1 x LTN, 1 x NWI (33 aircraft)

A320 :- 4 x LGW, 2 x BHX, 2 x DUB, 1 x CWL, 1 x EMA (10 aircraft)

this aircraft allocation indicates 5 new 737 Maxs to be delivered between now and summer, and at least 3 738's to be leased (Enter Air?) or purchased, and of course the usual mix of leased A320's from Avion Express, SmartLynx, Titan.

spare aircraft, possibly the same as this summer, 1 x 789, 2 x 738's, 2 x A320's?

NCL has a based 788.

[Matt995]

NCL has a based 788.

currently no 788 departures are showing for NCL on a Wednesday or Thursday, so aircraft goes to Manchester for those 2 days.

NCL 788 schedule:- Monday:- Cancun, Tuesday:- Orlando, Wednesday/Thursday:- no departures, Friday:- Cancun, Saturday:- Orlando, Sunday:- Dalaman & Antalya

[OltonPete]

currently no 788 departures are showing for NCL on a Wednesday or Thursday, so aircraft goes to Manchester for those 2 days.

NCL 788 schedule:- Monday:- Cancun, Tuesday:- Orlando, Wednesday/Thursday:- no departures, Friday:- Cancun, Saturday:- Orlando, Sunday:- Dalaman & Antalya

Even more impressive for NCL the 787 stays all summer operating MLB & CUN throughout unlike BHX that has lost a 787 and one of the ones that stays goes elsewhere for a month reducing Melbourne to weekly making NCL having more high-summer seats but BHX does start in March.

Although the BHX base moves to 12 aircraft seats are slightly down due to the 787 loss, there is still no Almeria so rather adding routes they are reducing them whereas Jet2, Ryanair and easyjet are going in the other direction. Obviously suffering at BHX but I suppose there had to be one loser with increase from the others (Ryanair movements are down S24 but full schedule not released and it looks like one extra aircraft is likely or more away based).

Pete

[SWBKCB]

Isn't Melbourne 3 times a week this summer out of NCL?

[JonnyH]

Isn't Melbourne 3 times a week this summer out of NCL?

it was supposed to be hence why my understanding was NCL had a based 788. Perhaps they’ve dropped it.

[SWBKCB]

it was supposed to be hence why my understanding was NCL had a based 788. Perhaps they’ve dropped it.

I meant summer 2023 - so two a week in 2024 would be a reduction, with the Sunday MLB flight replaced by the Turkish flights.. It's also probable that the 788 is based for summer 2024 - just because it does a couple of days of flying away doesn't necessarily change that. Presumably 'based' will be down to where the crew are located.

[samj]

Do we have a Summer 2023 timetable available? Appreciate it's in the past but would be good to see 767/787 use on it.

[Smudge's Lot]

All TUI 787 pilots are ONLY based at LGW/BHX/MAN

[simonwa]

All TUI 787 pilots are ONLY based at LGW/BHX/MAN

don’t think that is correct. Our return flight from PVR to MAN this summer had a GLA based crew. I was talking to one of the cabin crew who described how her allocation of flights works. Fly from GLA to CUN, then domestic flights to PVR, PVR to MAN, then ground transport back to GLA.

I think NCL also has a long haul crew based but not 100% certain.

[Cazza_fly]

don’t think that is correct. Our return flight from PVR to MAN this summer had a GLA based crew. I was talking to one of the cabin crew who described how her allocation of flights works. Fly from GLA to CUN, then domestic flights to PVR, PVR to MAN, then ground transport back to GLA.

I think NCL also has a long haul crew based but not 100% certain.

Pilots are not cabin crew and the crews are not always the same ones together.

[AVGEEK7812]

current aircraft allocation for Summer 2024 (based on August flights):-

B789 :- 2 x LGW, 2 x MAN, 1 x BHX (5 aircraft)

B788 :- 3 x LGW, 2 x MAN, 1 x BHX, 2 aircraft split between MAN (Mon/Tue/Thu), GLA (Wed-Mon), NCL (Fri-Wed) (8 aircraft)

B7M8 :- 6 x BRS, 5 x MAN, 3 x LGW, 3 x GLA, 3 x NCL, 2 x BHX, 1 x EMA (23 aircraft)

B738 :- 6 x BHX, 6 x MAN, 4 x LGW, 4 x EMA, 2 x BOH, 2 x CWL, 2 x NCL, 2 x STN, 1 x BFS, 1 x EXT, 1 x GLA, 1 x LTN, 1 x NWI (33 aircraft)

A320 :- 4 x LGW, 2 x BHX, 2 x DUB, 1 x CWL, 1 x EMA (10 aircraft)

this aircraft allocation indicates 5 new 737 Maxs to be delivered between now and summer, and at least 3 738's to be leased (Enter Air?) or purchased, and of course the usual mix of leased A320's from Avion Express, SmartLynx, Titan.

spare aircraft, possibly the same as this summer, 1 x 789, 2 x 738's, 2 x A320's?

That PDF is extremely helpful. Thanks so much for that and putting it together. It must have taken loads of time

[Tflyer]

For S23 it alternates between NCL/GLA. So, one week x3 one week x1. Saturday is weekly, Sunday & Tuesday are fortnightly.

S24 is Saturday & Tuesday weekly.

[Smudge's Lot]

don’t think that is correct. Our return flight from PVR to MAN this summer had a GLA based crew. I was talking to one of the cabin crew who described how her allocation of flights works. Fly from GLA to CUN, then domestic flights to PVR, PVR to MAN, then ground transport back to GLA.

I think NCL also has a long haul crew based but not 100% certain.

Cazza is correct. I said 787 PILOTS are only based at LGW/MAN/BHX.
I should know, I am one.
Again. Cazza is correct in that Cabin crew are based everywhere, so when you were talking to the Cabin Crew, that info is correct.

[Mcvicker03]

Hi there .
can someone tell me if tui airways have updated their summer schedule for next year please
for bhx?

[pamann]

Hi there .
can someone tell me if tui airways have updated their summer schedule for next year please
for bhx?

If you go back to post 1568, you’ll see that Matt995 has very kindly produced a provisional flying programme for peak-season summer 2024.

[EGNXROB]

G-TAWD 737-800 operating Corfu - Leeds Bradford has skidded off the runway upon landing at LBA ending up in boggy grass on the side of the runway.

[CabinCrewe]

aaah remember British Airtours ?!
that runway has always been a bit iffy
‘moved off the runway’ was the corporate term used for PR

[Jamie236]

Looks like a new Max will be on the way soon planespotters has it as G-TUOD

[ROC10]

Looks like a new Max will be on the way soon planespotters has it as G-TUOD

What a strange registration.

[Richard Taylor]

What a strange registration.
Suppose 3rd letter could have been R.................... :)

[BFS BHD]

Looks like a new Max will be on the way soon planespotters has it as G-TUOD

Seems like it was due to be delivered to TUIFly as D-AMAG, been at Victorville in US for a few months. First flight was 27th July.

Also Planespotters have G-TAWB due to return to the fleet after being with TUIFly as D-ATYM since January 2023.

[ICEHOUSES]

Is this the last weekend of 767 operations for the airline, does anybody know the final flight or last day of ops? Thanks

[LAX2000]

Boa Vista to Manchester showing as a 767 on Monday 30th October looks to be the final flight.

Not seen anything official, although i don't remember TUI doing anything for the final 757 flight either.

[ICEHOUSES]

Boa Vista to Manchester showing as a 767 on Monday 30th October looks to be the final flight.

Not seen anything official, although i don't remember TUI doing anything for the final 757 flight either.
Thanks for the info

[ROC10]

There may also be some inbound-only flights up to and including Tuesday 31st but I don’t think it’s due to be scheduled on anything from November onwards. Could be wrong though as haven’t seen anything official either.

[flybar]

I note that for the last two days TUI have diverted to Manchester instead of landing at LBA when all other flights have been landing as normal.
Is this because of the recent excursion off the runway when the runway was wet, as it currently is all the time or could it be weather problems on the M62 causing cancellation of crew transfer from Manchester?

[Flightrider]

Final 767 flight looks to be TOM2243 due to arrive in MAN from HER at 0010 on 1 November. It's doing a PMI rotation on Tuesday morning (TOM2228F/TOM2229) and then the HER. One aircraft is scheduled to position out to SAW as TOM924P at 1355 on 31Oct and the second is due to position to SAW as TOM974P at 0815 on 01Nov.

[ROC10]

Looks like TUI may be having some issues with the 767s just as they’re about to be withdrawn.

G-OBYF: Operating today to BVC, just under 2 hours late. Until today, hasn’t operated since Thursday 26th.

G-OBYK: Operated to CFU almost 4 hours late on Friday, then to PMI on Saturday morning and has been stuck there since. It was therefore unable to operate the inbound from PMI nor the ferry flight to KGS, followed by the final inbound from there. FR24 shows it had been due to leave PMI (rescheduled flight) at 10:00 this morning but that hasn’t happened yet.

TUI have had to bring in a Privilege Style 772 (EC-MUA) to operate inbounds from RHO last night (presumably covering for OBYF) and 24-hour late KGS tonight (covering for OBYK).

[ROC10]

I note that for the last two days TUI have diverted to Manchester instead of landing at LBA when all other flights have been landing as normal.
Is this because of the recent excursion off the runway when the runway was wet, as it currently is all the time or could it be weather problems on the M62 causing cancellation of crew transfer from Manchester?

They have landed at LBA a couple of times since the accident - from PMI and DBV I believe.

I read that an outbound crew had been waiting for the aircraft at LBA (it was on a 5-hour delay at that point) on at least one of the occasions it diverted to MAN so presumably the decision was made in the air. It does appear they are being a bit hesitant in landing at LBA though, especially where most/all other flights are landing safely.

[JonnyH]

Looks like TUI may be having some issues with the 767s just as they’re about to be withdrawn.

G-OBYF: Operating today to BVC, just under 2 hours late. Until today, hasn’t operated since Thursday 26th.

G-OBYK: Operated to CFU almost 4 hours late on Friday, then to PMI on Saturday morning and has been stuck there since. It was therefore unable to operate the inbound from PMI nor the ferry flight to KGS, followed by the final inbound from there. FR24 shows it had been due to leave PMI (rescheduled flight) at 10:00 this morning but that hasn’t happened yet.

TUI have had to bring in a Privilege Style 772 (EC-MUA) to operate inbounds from RHO last night (presumably covering for OBYF) and 24-hour late KGS tonight (covering for OBYK).

OBYK still stuck in PMI. OBYF is positioning to SAW today.

[azz767]

OBYK still stuck in PMI. OBYF is positioning to SAW today.

Any idea what the future is for these 2? I’m assuming freighter conversions but has anyone agreed to take them yet?

[Cazza_fly]

Any idea what the future is for these 2? I’m assuming freighter conversions but has anyone agreed to take them yet?

G-OBYF is on end of lease checks in SAW before being expected to be converted into a freighter.

G-OBYK is still broken in PMI, most likely plagued by the same issue its been affected with all summer. Once fixed to fly, it will position to Tureal in Spain to be stored. It was planned to go the same way as G-OBYF, but i'm expecting because of the ongoing issues, its either going to require much more work further down the line and its awaiting that time slot in SAW to do it, or it will just probably be scrapped.

[ICEHOUSES]

G-OBYF is on end of lease checks in SAW before being expected to be converted into a freighter.

G-OBYK is still broken in PMI, most likely plagued by the same issue it’s been affected with all summer. Once fixed to fly, it will position to Tureal in Spain to be stored. It was planned to go the same way as G-OBYF, but i'm expecting because of the ongoing issues, its either going to require much more work further down the line and its awaiting that time slot in SAW to do it, or it will just probably be scrapped.
Do you happen to know the nature of the ongoing problem with G-OBYK, I believe it’s caused TUI quite a few cancelled flights over the last month and required Privilege style to be used for some flights, thanks

[SJL26779]

Do you happen to know the nature of the ongoing problem with G-OBYK, I believe it’s caused TUI quite a few cancelled flights over the last month and required Privilege style to be used for some flights, thanks
hydraulics failure I believe

[Jamie236]

Anyone able to tell which Max will operate the TOM740 BHX-BVC this Sunday?

[pabely]

Anyone able to tell which Max will operate the TOM740 BHX-BVC this Sunday?
Unlikely known at this stage, even day before, things change.

[gonetech]

G-OBYK due to ferry Palma-Teruel Fri 10th Nov as TOM1SN

[GBYAJ]

TUI Group posted some great results today with a really positive outlook for 2024. Share price up15%.

thought I’d share as TUI airways are part of it.

[Sotonsean]

TUI Group posted some great results today with a really positive outlook for 2024. Share price up15%.

thought I’d share as TUI airways are part of it.

Taken from an online article from Reuters, TUI AG is considering de-listing TUI from the London Stock Exchange. TUI would, therefore, be listed purely on the Frankfurt Stock Exchange. According to the article by Reuters, UK stockholders only represent 15% of the company.

[WHBM]

Taken from an online article from Reuters, TUI AG is considering de-listing TUI from the London Stock Exchange. TUI would, therefore, be listed purely on the Frankfurt Stock Exchange. According to the article by Reuters, UK stockholders only represent 15% of the company.
I think most thought TUI was a German company ("Touristik Union International Aktiengesellschaft" is a bit of a giveaway) and might be a little surprised that it had a primary listing in London, not Frankfurt anyway.

May be interesting to see any impact on route licences from the UK, to both EU and non-EU destinations..

[pabely]

I think most thought TUI was a German company ("Touristik Union International Aktiengesellschaft" is a bit of a giveaway) and might be a little surprised that it had a primary listing in London, not Frankfurt anyway.

May be interesting to see any impact on route licences from the UK, to both EU and non-EU destinations..
Didn't RYR drop out of LSE in 2021, did it affect their UK AOC?

[Cazza_fly]

Didn't RYR drop out of LSE in 2021, did it affect their UK AOC?

The stock exchange has no impact nor pretty much no connection on AOC or operations...

[colinhunn]

I thought Fly4 would operate the Summer 2024 Tui schedule but I have found out that this won’t be the case. I don’t think a decision has yet been made as to who will replace Sunwings at Norwich, Aberdeen etc

[Cazza_fly]

I thought Fly4 would operate the Summer 2024 Tui schedule but I have found out that this won’t be the case. I don’t think a decision has yet been made as to who will replace Sunwings at Norwich, Aberdeen etc

It's currently expected to be TUI own mental. ABZ will no longer operate with a summer base.

[LW940]

It's currently expected to be TUI own mental. ABZ will no longer operate with a summer base.

Do you know who is replacing Sunwing at CWL?

[pamann]

I thought Fly4 would operate the Summer 2024 Tui schedule but I have found out that this won’t be the case. I don’t think a decision has yet been made as to who will replace Sunwings at Norwich, Aberdeen etc

ABZ base has closed.

[Markushillman]

It's currently expected to be TUI own mental. ABZ will no longer operate with a summer base.

It's AirExplore at NWI

[CabinCrewe]

ABZ base comes and goes even since the days of uprated 737-200ADV ’s in the 80’s.

[pamann]

ABZ base comes and goes even since the days of uprated 737-200ADV ’s in the 80’s.

As of now it’s officially closed as a base.

[Matt995]

see attached updated provisional TUI summer 2024 timetable, based on August 2024 flights only, Egypt seems to have taken a heavy hit, with a big reduction in weekly flights.

no doubt we will see many more changes before May, some more rejigging of the timetable is required.

[oldbalboy]

Never an actual base in 80’s. Always W patterns or flown from PMI with crews nightstopping in PMI

[gonetech]

G-TUOD MAX 8 TOM950P on delivery into MAN this morning

[ImPlaneCrazy]

G-TUOD MAX 8 TOM950P on delivery into MAN this morning

Does anyone know why new deliveries come into MAN rather than LTN, where I'd assume they'd do the changes required to bring it into service?

[Matt995]

Does anyone know why new deliveries come into MAN rather than LTN, where I'd assume they'd do the changes required to bring it into service?

I don't think any of the Max's have ever been delivered to LTN, they all seem to go to MAN and LGW these days, maybe because there are no Max's based at LTN?

[Yeehaw22]

Eis mods always been considered line capable so go to the larger line stations. LTN hangar is either packed out in winter or minimal staff in summer. Some have gone to BRU in the past aswell.

[pabely]

TUI Engineering at Luton do work on the Max but the hangers will be fully booked out during the winter with pre-planned work.
Making a hole for a will it / will it not be delivered on xx day does not bare up the hassle. The flightline crews at larger bases, as it has been stated, are more than capable.
Additionally parking at Luton is always an issue as Biz Jets regularly overflow from FBO areas onto normal airliner stands. Currently the new 77-79 stands are being used by Harrods FBO as overflow. Wizzair UK are also doing more of their own Engineering at Luton which takes up stands close to the TUI hangers.

[ItsonlyMeagain]

I assume if TUI use hangers, their aircraft will be above all the other ones on the ground outside the hangArs.

Me

[gonetech]

G-OBYF TOM932P returning to MAN 22/12 from SAW after end of lease maintenance

[northernaviation]

G-OBYF TOM932P returning to MAN 22/12 from SAW after end of lease maintenance

any idea why it’s coming back to MAN?

none of the other off lease stuff returned for storage so seems odd

[mdk31]

Any idea if or when the older 788s will receive a refurb?

[Wycombe]

Any idea if or when the older 788s will receive a refurb?

Not just the 788's, I recently flew in G-TUIJ, a 7 year old 789 and the top of the wings looked like a patchwork quilt of peeled and patched paintwork.

[Tui fly]

G-TUOD MAX 8 TOM950P on delivery into MAN this morning

Hey everyone
just wondering if anyone has any information on TUI irelands operations ?
there’s very little information about it online.

Does anyone know if they plan on any new routes or if it’s successful
Thanks in advance

[ROC10]

G-TUOD MAX 8 TOM950P on delivery into MAN this morning

Hey everyone
just wondering if anyone has any information on TUI irelands operations ?
there’s very little information about it online.

Does anyone know if they plan on any new routes or if it’s successful
Thanks in advance

TUI Ireland isn’t an airline - the flights are all operated by TUI Airways (UK) as far as I’m aware.

[Sean North]

TUI is quickly becoming very uncompetitive. Both long haul and short haul you can find a better air product and comparable hotel product from competitors (and quite often at a lower price).

Price aside (which is often not the case), there is no incentive to book TUI short haul and the old one for long haul (flying from regional airports) is fast disappearing.

TUI is a company that has been ran into the ground. Even the share price has taken a nose dive.

[SWBKCB]

Where do you see the competition for TUI on long haul regional flying?

[rog747]

Where do you see the competition for TUI on long haul regional flying?


Good point,
as it stands today, apart from mainstream LON and MAN departures with BA Holidays and Virgin Holidays who both use their own in-house Scheduled flights, there is basically no one else apart from TUI, to book long-haul for a land based Package Holiday from a Regional, or you have to book as a ''do-it-yourself''.

There is simply no UK based long haul charter airlines/capacity left anymore, as well seen and publicly critiqued in the Travel Industry Press/Social Media in P&O Fly-Cruises Maleth Aero contract decision for LGW/MAN to BGI and ANU for their large number of winter cruise ships flights.

Jet2 Holidays may just one day, enter the Long-Haul holiday market but its fraught with difficulty; the $ USD exchange rate being one, and the volatile destinations worldwide where an attempt to plan a charter series and book accommodation contracts makes it all a huge risk which Jet2 have clearly, and wisely steered well clear of to date.

As for ''UK Regional'' Long Haul package holidays which is the subject of this post then Jet2 would have to think carefully -
They could do well at BRS BHX BFS and NCL in the wake of TUI reducing their own programmes, but it's always Seasonal (winter usually), and you're always faced with expensive operational costs with Crewing, Positioning flights, possible split loads, and fuel tech stops needed enroute to destination, and so on.

Also we have destination fatigue, or destination problems...
These below were all once the ''darlings'' of the charter package industry but for whatever reason they no longer feasible, or have limited attraction.
Cuba (hotel standards and risk)
Orlando (USA is so expensive today: hotels, eating out, car hire; and although Disney etc is still attractive, the cost of a family holiday today is eye watering)
Mombasa (too risky but the Italians still go there, and they also go to ZNZ Zanzibar along with the Germans, but the Brits do not go)
Goa (fell out of favour as a winter charter package destination)
Grenada Tobago (legacy airline competition)
Maldives (accommodation too expensive for package charters and legacy airline competition)
Phuket (still massive with the Swedes and Germans, but still TUI flies in the Brits)
Gambia (still some BJL charters but not like before)
Egypt (much of is too risky)

We lament long gone Excel/XL, Monarch, and Thomas Cook but long haul did not save them.
If they were still around today then things maybe different?

Our European friends still seem to do well, Condor, Neos, Edelweiss and Sunclass all have big long-haul holiday markets but it is all Seasonal, mostly flown in the winter, so what do you do with your big wide bodies in the summer >? you use them on your peak short hauls, such as PMI HER RHO DLM AYT TFS, or to the USA and Canada.

[azz767]

Good point,
as it stands today, apart from mainstream LON and MAN departures with BA Holidays and Virgin Holidays who both use their own in-house Scheduled flights, there is basically no one else apart from TUI, to book long-haul for a land based Package Holiday from a Regional, or you have to book as a ''do-it-yourself''.

There is simply no UK based long haul charter airlines/capacity left anymore, as well seen and publicly critiqued in the Travel Industry Press/Social Media in P&O Fly-Cruises Maleth Aero contract decision for LGW/MAN to BGI and ANU for their large number of winter cruise ships flights.

Jet2 Holidays may just one day, enter the Long-Haul holiday market but its fraught with difficulty; the $ USD exchange rate being one, and the volatile destinations worldwide where an attempt to plan a charter series and book accommodation contracts makes it all a huge risk which Jet2 have clearly, and wisely steered well clear of to date.

As for ''UK Regional'' Long Haul package holidays which is the subject of this post then Jet2 would have to think carefully -
They could do well at BRS BHX BFS and NCL in the wake of TUI reducing their own programmes, but it's always Seasonal (winter usually), and you're always faced with expensive operational costs with Crewing, Positioning flights, possible split loads, and fuel tech stops needed enroute to destination, and so on.

Also we have destination fatigue, or destination problems...
These below were all once the ''darlings'' of the charter package industry but for whatever reason they no longer feasible, or have limited attraction.
Cuba (hotel standards and risk)
Orlando (USA is so expensive today: hotels, eating out, car hire; and although Disney etc is still attractive, the cost of a family holiday today is eye watering)
Mombasa (too risky but the Italians still go there, and they also go to ZNZ Zanzibar along with the Germans, but the Brits do not go)
Goa (fell out of favour as a winter charter package destination)
Grenada Tobago (legacy airline competition)
Maldives (accommodation too expensive for package charters and legacy airline competition)
Phuket (still massive with the Swedes and Germans, but still TUI flies in the Brits)
Gambia (still some BJL charters but not like before)
Egypt (much of is too risky)

We lament long gone Excel/XL, Monarch, and Thomas Cook but long haul did not save them.
If they were still around today then things maybe different?

Our European friends still seem to do well, Condor, Neos, Edelweiss and Sunclass all have big long-haul holiday markets but it is all Seasonal, mostly flown in the winter, so what do you do with your big wide bodies in the summer >? you use them on your peak short hauls, such as PMI HER RHO DLM AYT TFS, or to the USA and Canada.

the other issue with long haul package holidays, in the UK are tour operators/travel agents such as blue bay travel, hays Jarvis etc. 9 times out of 10 a long haul package holiday to the Caribbean or far east Asia is considered ‘exclusive’, and these tour operators can book you on BA/VS going west or via the ME3 going east. People who are paying £8k plus on a holiday are going to expect a good onboard product. Would someone who’s paid let’s say £15k to go to Barbados for two weeks and is from the north east, really be fussed about jumping on the Heathrow shuttle and flying BA vs flying TUI at less frequency and not as good product (particularly premium wise). Same for anywhere in Scotland or MAN.

That means for TUI, and Jet2 if they were to ever enter this market they are relying on loyal customers, which TUI decimated due to awful fleet planning during the aftermath of COVID, and Jet2 do have but they are only known for typical European sun and city destinations. Alternatively they are relying on the price sensitive customers who it’s maybe a stretch for them to go let’s say to cancun or the Dominican instead of the canaries one year so they want the best deal possible, so you’re scraping around for the low returns. And the only way to make lower returns work is higher volume, which neither TUI or Jet2 can or should want to offer.

[AirportPlanner1]

There are quite a lot of long-haul charter destinations served by European airlines that don’t see UK service. Anyone know Nosy Be in Madagascar or Salalah in Oman?! More still when you add in Central/South American and Caribbean places the Canadians go to like Huatulco in Mexico, Rio Hato in Panama.

There are certainly opportunities for long-haul with standards clearly acceptable that lack competition from BA/VS or those from the Middle East. I suspect part of this not being exploited or at least tried is the conservative psyche of the British package customer (perhaps also older Britains more generally) who aren’t comfortable exploring places ‘off the beaten track’. For this there is evidence, for example Thomas Cook (?) tried Sanya in China and that didn’t last long. Tui’s own routes to Langkawi (Malaysia) and Pho Quoc (Vietnam) didn’t return.

Regional I suspect is harder to make work because the market for package has shrunk and one-stop options are available with KL/EK etc.

[rog747]

Good points above in the previous 2 posts thanks.

Whilst not to distract from the TUI thread here it must be said that Hayes & Jarvis, Red Sea Holidays, Kuoni and Jules Verne all took a lot of seats on UK charter flights to the likes of Goa, Egypt, Maldives, Colombo, Mombasa and that work is all gone.
Caledonian, Monarch and others did well on the GND and TAB flights.

As for more exotic destinations it has to be said that the old ex-Colonial spots in the Indian Ocean, Africa, Indo China, and The Caribbean etc still attract the French, Dutch and Spanish charter airlines which the UK does not market.

[SWBKCB]

As for ''UK Regional'' Long Haul package holidayswhich is the subject of this post then Jet2 would have to think carefully -
They could do well at BRS BHX BFS and NCL in the wake of TUI reducing their own programmes, but it's always Seasonal (winter usually), and you're always faced with expensive operational costs with Crewing, Positioning flights, possible split loads, and fuel tech stops needed enroute to destination, and so on.

I thought most of TUI's regional long haul was during the summer?

[MARK 101]

Seems TUI are doing very well on cruise market although do feel single destination trips are declining. A fair few travel companies offer private transfers to the airport in the price making local departures less necessary. in addition quite a few do offer long haul from regional airports using European hubs KLM Iberia AF etc

[ATNotts]

Surely another factor that affects the UK perhaps more than some other European countries is the reqirement for the overwhelming majority for a 'Britain with sunshine' holiday echoing the commedy sketch (was it Python?) of 'English beer, roast beef and tea like mum makes'. For many somewhere cheap and not 'too foreign' is the No.1 reqirement ahead of the culture of the destination. We aren't alone, the French are similar, the reason Club Med. was set up!

There probably aren't the raw numbers of more adventurous holidaymakers to sustain charters to far flung 'more interesting places' UK away from the Southeast and one or two departure points elsewhere by more than one operator. MAN would be one, BHX perhaps another, and as a long shot BRS if had a decent runway.

[CabinCrewe]

Caledonian, Monarch and others did well on the GND and TAB flights.

Who said they did well…? Both carriers long gone.

[ATNotts]

Who said they did well…? Both carriers long gone.
The routes, in terms of the demand the tour operators experienced did, the airlines mentioned perhaps less so.

One issue with some of the Caribbean island destinations is that many customers may feel they have 'done them' after one trip and look for other new places to go for their next holiday.

[rog747]

The routes, in terms of the demand the tour operators experienced did, the airlines mentioned perhaps less so.


Spot on, thank you - and those airlines' ultimate fates were not sealed by flying to GND and TAB.

[oldart]

Seems TUI are doing very well on cruise market although do feel single destination trips are declining. A fair few travel companies offer private transfers to the airport in the price making local departures less necessary. in addition quite a few do offer long haul from regional airports using European hubs KLM Iberia AF etc
It would seem that after doing North America cruises in 2023 TUI have pulled out.

[SWBKCB]

It would seem that after doing North America cruises in 2023 TUI have pulled out.

Wasn't that the reason for moving the Florida flights to Melbourne?

[tictack67]

One issue with some of the Caribbean island destinations is that many customers may feel they have 'done them' after one trip and look for other new places to go for their next holiday.


This goes for Europe too, why hence Morocco & Albania are new destinations for example. It can be old hat to go to BCN or PRG for some (Not me BTW)

[Sean North]

The incompetent fleet management aside, I see the fall of TUI as starting when they took over First Choice. The German control has done nothing to develop the airline or brand in the UK in any meaningful way. Everything from combined passenger numbers to market share to destinations served is down. But that's in the past. TUI has too much competition for classic short haul, especially now legacy airlines and LCCs offer package holidays as a prices quite often below what TUI does. TUI should just become a scheduled airline at this point and do packages on the side.

[Sean North]

There are quite a lot of long-haul charter destinations served by European airlines that don’t see UK service. Anyone know Nosy Be in Madagascar or Salalah in Oman?! More still when you add in Central/South American and Caribbean places the Canadians go to like Huatulco in Mexico, Rio Hato in Panama.

There are certainly opportunities for long-haul with standards clearly acceptable that lack competition from BA/VS or those from the Middle East. I suspect part of this not being exploited or at least tried is the conservative psyche of the British package customer (perhaps also older Britains more generally) who aren’t comfortable exploring places ‘off the beaten track’. For this there is evidence, for example Thomas Cook (?) tried Sanya in China and that didn’t last long. Tui’s own routes to Langkawi (Malaysia) and Pho Quoc (Vietnam) didn’t return.


Is it really a case Brits being conservative or is it a marketing problem? When those destinations did exist, they were not aggressively marketed. If you have a Jane McDonald TV programme on one of the packages and play it as a way to make a new part of the world affordable to the average Brit, uptake would be stronger. The same is true for any marketing campaign. Think of the last TUI campaign - it's so generic on all platforms and never pushed a destination. Even now, look at the TUI Facebook page. The latest few posts are a colleague talking about their favourite destination and generic photos of Rhodes. What pathetic marketing that is.

If their social media was full of 20 second videos of a family enjoying a safari in Botswana, a couple learning about the traps of the Viet Cong in Ho Chi Minh, or kids running along the Sky Bridge in Langkawi, all accompanied with captions about Britain's most trusted holiday company making the unexplored world affordable to the Brit, and these new destinations can be explored in style with TUI reps holding your hand every step of the way, the uptake would be much higher than not mentioning them all.

It's not even a new strategy, it's what their predecessors used to do in the holiday hypermarkets before Cancun became big. They had all the brochures out and aggressively pushed Mexico at people.

[oldart]

Wasn't that the reason for moving the Florida flights to Melbourne?
Yes that was one of the main reasons, however I believe they will still do the package holidays to Orlando via Melbourne but sadly it's a long transfer.

[VickersVicount]

TUI SSH to GLA diverting after two attempts and now sqwaking 7700 presumably fuel as EDI and NCL not accepting any more diversions

[mdk31]

TUIA seems to be off to Taipei - overdue repaint perhaps?

[Sean North]

Another reason why TUI's long haul programme is in terminal decline: price

I was searching earlier and for a 2 week all inclusive break in the Caribbean, it was cheaper to fly BA in business class with the lie flat bed than TUI's premium economy. Is there really any doubt over which option most people would take?

[samj]

2024 Holidays in general have noticeably rocketed for cost I have found.

[CabinCrewe]

wonder what this does for Tui Airways?
A sign of things to come?
https://travelweekly.co.uk/news/air/tui-agrees-to-offer-ryanair-flights-as-part-of-packages

[davidjohnson6]

TUI is admitting their business model is failing and are now willingly giving the fox the keys to the henhouse.

The fox won't gorge himself and make a fool of himself in a hurry leading to immediate expulsion. Instead the fox is likely to be clever enough to look round the henhouse and find all the ways he can (apparently) ingratiate himself with the farmer so that the farmer becomes completely dependent upon him and it's far too late to do anything about it.... and then the fox makes long term parasitic use of his keys.

It's the kind of thing that make anti-monopoly regulators get very nervous while they can't do anything about it.

For younger people - think of Dementors
For older people who have seen the film Alien with Sigourney Weaver from 1979 - think of the Chestburster / birth scene

Just my two cents. But it is what I genuinely think. :)

[Harold77]

There's a lot of people who only like package deals for their holidays. This deal opens up whole new avenues, with both parties winning. Ryanair gets more passengers and TUI gets more accommodation/ tour packages sold. Where both companies operate flights it gives consumers more choices for lengths of stay, thus making locations more appealing.

[pug]

There's a lot of people who only like package deals for their holidays. This deal opens up whole new avenues, with both parties winning. Ryanair gets more passengers and TUI gets more accommodation/ tour packages sold. Where both companies operate flights it gives consumers more choices for lengths of stay, thus making locations more appealing.

I think you’ve hit the nail on the head with this. It’s offering flexibility where TUI Airways can’t. I don’t think it’s the beginning of the end of the in-house airline, but it is designed to bolster accommodation sales as TUI own a lot of their own hotels/apartments. Also adds to Ryanair’s load factor, will expect more U.K. airports to be added on the back of this.

[HandsomeHarry]

So let me understand this, you book a package holiday with TUI but you might end up flying with Ryanair to your destination?

Surely not?

I would be very disappointed if I booked with TUI and ended up on a Ryanair aircraft.

[Harold77]

What's the main earning season for TUI, the summer. So this now opens increases throughout the year. I have friends who work in TUI shops, so this is going to give them more business in store. With increasing loads can push Ryanair to lay on more rotations.
There's a lot of people who think come on lets book a weekend/ week away on a whim. Now this makes it easier to drop into a shop and book everything in one go.

Can see this partnership catching a few in the companies off guard as to how popular it is going to be.

[aerotech07]

So let me understand this, you book a package holiday with TUI but you might end up flying with Ryanair to your destination?

Surely not?

I would be very disappointed if I booked with TUI and ended up on a Ryanair aircraft.

I'd much rather end up on a Ryanair aircraft than be told I'm flying TUI and end up on an all white no-name A320 with a hastily applied red smile decal on the tail.

If TUI are telling the customer at the time of booking and the package includes the extras the customer wants (bags, seat selection etc) then I really don't see the issue. If TUI customers at large really don't want that product then they won't book the Ryanair operated flights and the partnership won't work out. Or it may offer more flexibility and options and may work well for all parties. Understand the concerns those working for the in-house airline may have though.

[Harold77]

So let me understand this, you book a package holiday with TUI but you might end up flying with Ryanair to your destination?

Surely not?

I would be very disappointed if I booked with TUI and ended up on a Ryanair aircraft.


You'd be told what options are available airline wise at time of booking. It wouldn't be just book a TUI holiday package and find out its flying Ryanair. You'd be told/ shown before you agree to the package

[davidjohnson6]

I see the following problems:
- Will TUI keep their in-house airlines at the same size long term, or will they gradually shrink them down as aircraft become old ?
- Will TUI find that the CASK that Ryanair charge TUI is lower than what it costs TUI to operate a flight themselves ? If so, will TUI management be tempted to increasingly outsource flights on core routes (e.g. London - Mallorca) to Ryanair ?
- Will TUI still have the same ambition for their in-house airlines ? Will new routes still be launched ? When times get tough, cutting costs is tempting, and it's not always easy to see if you're cutting a bit of fat or cutting into muscle
- How much data will Ryanair have about their customers ? Can Ryanair send marketing to these customers later ? Can Ryanair combine this data with data from non-TUI-originating bookings ? How can Ryanair use this data ?
- Will Ryanair be tempted to re-establish their own in-house travel agency in 5 or 10 years time ?
- What happens when flights go wrong ? Who gets bumped first - ordinary Ryanair passengers, those booking via TUI, or does this does not have an influence ? Will Ryanair still find a way to get people to a destination if they have to cancel a flight in July ?
- If something goes wrong with a TUI flight, TUI will often make a decent effort at putting it right. Ryanair doesn't have the same reputation. Will TUI still have the same brand value in the eyes of these customers ?
- How will customers perceive this ? If TUI are providing just the hotel, will customers be more tempted to book the hotel themselves and then visit ryanair.com ? Will this be cheaper ? Google is very happy to provide you the hotel website and phone number or booking.com./ hotels.com will happily take your hotel booking
- How will hoteliers preceive this ? Will hoteliers still give TUI the same bulk discount if they see TUI as just a competitor of booking.com rather than a company that has complete control of the tour operation ?
- TUI cabin crew generally do a good job at customer service. Ryanair cabin crew are more focussed on in-flight sales. If you're booking a luxury holiday, how does a cr*ppy flight experience square with the money you've paid ?
- TUI go to great lengths in their in-flight magazine to sell another holiday to people on their aircraft. Pictures of blue skies, infinity pools, etc... How much is this marketing opportunity worth to TUI ?
- TUI are focused on ensuring flights from many airports arrive at a resort at roughly the same time. The rep can welcome people to (e.g.) Lanzarote from Gatwick, Birmingham, Manchester and Glasgow at the same time and put them onto the right coach to their resort. With Ryanair flying at their own times, the people who book TUI packages and most want a brief hand-holding while a bit nervous in a new location potentially lose this. Can TUI provide this same brand embrace for flights throughout the day ? If not, does it matter ?
- If TUI's brand is all about the in-resort experience and a helpful TUI rep... then do we end up with what's known as moral hazard around who self-packages versus those using TUI ? In effect, those who can cope without a rep are more tempted to self-package, while those with greater dependency use TUI ? The result would be a rep being increasingly busy and either costs go up, or the rep has less time to help each customer while in resort
- What really is the product that TUI are selling ?

I know it's not the same as financial debt... but I'm seeing a TUI CEO under pressure from investors to generate short-term profits. In reality, I think TUI is getting Thomas Cook and Manny Fontenla-Novoa

[LGS6753]

DJ6,
As usual, you make some excellent points.
Imagine this:

TUI are struggling operationally with their airline.
They own hotels which they want to fill.
Hotels are costly, as are aircraft, but aircraft need replacing and hotels don't.
TUI can get reliable flights at lower cost than their own fleet offers.
Why not ditch the airline (over time) and become a hotelier?

[inOban]

It hasn't been mentioned that TUI have regularly used EZY to fly their clients on some routes (certainly from EDI ). With EZY rapidly growing their own holiday business they might have thought there was a conflict of interest. I wonder who approached who to initiate negotiations for this deal.

[SWBKCB]

DJ6,
As usual, you make some excellent points.
Imagine this:

TUI are struggling operationally with their airline.
They own hotels which they want to fill.
Hotels are costly, as are aircraft, but aircraft need replacing and hotels don't.
TUI can get reliable flights at lower cost than their own fleet offers.
Why not ditch the airline (over time) and become a hotelier?


Because you lose control of your product.

And as inOban says, how is this different to the arrangement with EZY?

[Sotonsean]

I see the following problems:

Will TUI keep their in-house airlines at the same size long term, or will they gradually shrink them down as aircraft become old ?

Will TUI find that the CASK that Ryanair charge TUI is lower than what it costs TUI to operate a flight themselves ?

If so, will TUI management be tempted to increasingly outsource flights on core routes (e.g., London - Mallorca) to Ryanair ?

Will TUI still have the same ambition for their in-house airlines ?

Will new routes still be launched ?

When times get tough, cutting costs is tempting, and it's not always easy to see if you're cutting a bit of fat or cutting into muscle. How much data will Ryanair have about their customers ?

Can Ryanair send marketing to these customers later ?

Can Ryanair combine this data with data from non-TUI-originating bookings ?

How can Ryanair use this data ?

Will Ryanair be tempted to re-establish their own in-house travel agency in 5 or 10 years' time ?

What happens when flights go wrong ?

Who gets bumped first - ordinary Ryanair passengers, those booking via TUI, or does this does not have an influence ?

Will Ryanair still find a way to get people to a destination if they have to cancel a flight in July ?

If something goes wrong with a TUI flight, TUI will often make a decent effort at putting it right. Ryanair doesn't have the same reputation. Will TUI still have the same brand value in the eyes of these customers ?

How will customers perceive this ?

If TUI are providing just the hotel, will customers be more tempted to book the hotel themselves and then visit ryanair.com ?

Will this be cheaper ?

Google is very happy to provide you with the hotel website and phone number or booking.com. hotels.com will happily take your hotel booking.

How will hoteliers receive this ?

Will hoteliers still give TUI the same bulk discount if they see TUI as just a competitor of booking.com rather than a company that has complete control of the tour operation ?

TUI cabin crew generally does a good job at customer service. Ryanair cabin crew are more focused on in-flight sales. If you're booking a luxury holiday, how does a cr*ppy flight experience square with the money you've paid ?

TUI go to great lengths in their in-flight magazine to sell another holiday to people on their aircraft. Pictures of blue skies, infinity pools, etc... How much is this marketing opportunity worth to TUI ?

TUI is focused on ensuring flights from many airports arrive at a resort at roughly the same time. The rep can welcome people to (e.g.) Lanzarote from Gatwick, Birmingham, Manchester, and Glasgow at the same time and put them onto the right coach to their resort With Ryanair flying at their own times, the people who book TUI packages and most want a brief hand-holding while a bit nervous in a new location potentially lose this.

Can TUI provide this same brand embrace for flights throughout the day ?

If not, does it matter ?

If TUI's brand is all about the in-resort experience and a helpful TUI rep... then do we end up with what's known as moral hazards around who self-packages versus those using TUI ?

In effect, those who can cope without a rep are more tempted to self-package, while those with greater dependency use TUI ?

The result would be a rep being increasingly busy and either costs go up, or the rep has less time to help each customer while in resort.

What really is the product that TUI is selling ?

I know it's not the same as financial debt... but I'm seeing a TUI CEO under pressure from investors to generate short-term profits. In reality, I think TUI is getting Thomas Cook and Manny Fontenla-Novoa

I hope you don't mind but I had too. I have taken the opportunity to tidy up the grammar slightly and make your post easier to read 📚

[davidjohnson6]

Sotonsean - really not sure what you meant in your last post... but I'm inclined to give you the benefit of the doubt.

Everyone else, particularly TUI employees - apologies if my opinions cause upset, but I want to be open and candid in what I think. By training, I'm an economist... and I'm looking at this announcement as an economist, trying to see through the public relations fluff. I havd flown with a few of the TUI airlines in the past and generally had a good experience. I was sad to see Thomas Cook collapse and do not want the same for TUI.

[davidjohnson6]

I forgot to mention the TUI share price which might be what's behind this.
In November 2019, it peaked at 35 euros
In late March 2020 (at peak of Covid panic) it was 11 euros
By May 2021, it had recovered to 22 euros
It's now 6.26 euros - i.e. about 72 % down from what it was in May 2021 when vaccines were widespread and people thought Covid was coming to an end

The TUI CEO is presumably under significant pressure from investors to do *something significant* to boost the share price.

[sewushr]

SotonSean, your patronising tone and arrogance amaze me at times! ;-)

For someone who doesn't understand the correct way to use an apostrophe (often placing one before the 's' of a plural noun) and has managed to use the wrong spelling of 'to' in your 'correction' of DJ6's post, I'm not sure you are best qualified to correct grammatical mistakes in posts from other contributors ;-)

I fully understood the points DJ6 was making. But thanks for your improvements lol

[Sotonsean]

SotonSean, your patronising tone and arrogance amaze me at times! ;-)

For someone who doesn't understand the correct way to use an apostrophe (often placing one before the 's' of a plural noun) and has managed to use the wrong spelling of 'to' in your 'correction' of DJ6's post, I'm not sure you are best qualified to correct grammatical mistakes in posts from other contributors ;-)

I fully understood the points DJ6 was making. But thanks for your improvements lol

I didn't touch the apostrophes, nouns, plurals, spelling. All I did was to change the format so it was easier to read.

But I do appreciate the fact that I amaze you at times. Even though we have never ever communicated before and to be honest I've never seen you in the forum's before. But it's nice to know that I amaze you at times. It's nice to know that I put a smile on your face 😊

[azz767]

Because you lose control of your product.

And as inOban says, how is this different to the arrangement with EZY?

Yes but what product exactly? TUI short/med haul is no different to RYR on board now (unless you’re lucky enough to get a Dreamliner in the summer months). As long as the full Tui package, I.e luggage is included I couldn’t care less if I’m flying 2/3 hours to a Mediterranean destination, although saying that with the reliability and on time performance of TUI post covid, Ryanair with a comparable on board experience is probably a better option!

[casadave]

Agree with much of the above, but consider the actual wording of announcements from TUI over the last 6 months with reference to the (ATOL) size of their UK tour operation which has slipped into number 2 position after Jet2. This is now an old fashioned Tour Operator war where one fights back with extra capacity - in this case sourced from a highly efficient LCC to augment what they can already produce with their in-house carrier. I see no threat to the future of their own airline, rather a (any) tour operator's dream to be able to bolt on extra capacity where and when demand exists but with VERY LITTLE COMMITMENT - surely a better bet than questionable ACMI arrangements which tend to come in lumps of 180Y. This is history repeating itself and anyone as old as me will be able to recall Thomson Holidays being able to pull this sort of innovation off repeatedly over a near 50 year span. Quite possibly a win win for both parties and one which might be causing some concern oop north (unless of course they get the same deal....!!!)

[P330]

I worry this could be the start of a shrinking of the TUI airline at the expense of short term profits. Some questions:

Would a TUI package with a FR flight be ATOL protected? Would transfers still be offered? Would luggage be included?

If all of the above is yes and it just creates more options for customers, you can easily see some TUI attrition to FR meaning they have more empty seats on their own planes, meaning they need less of them. Or is this an attempt to reduce the need for outsourcing?

I fear for the w operations to smaller airports - feels like these are the easiest to lose.

Wonder if FR would have an allocation per aircraft for TUI of if every sale is first come first served?

[Manair6]

I don’t think it will have any effect on Jet2, or concern them in the slightest. One of their biggest selling points for customers is their customer focus throughout the experience. A TUI holiday flying with Ryanair can’t compete with that!

[Markushillman]

I mean they already offer packages with other airlines from my local airport.

For this winter I can book a package holiday/city break to Amsterdam through TUI, where it clearly states KLM will be my carrier. Even explains why stating offering more options but not to worry, you will still have transfers, bags and 24/7 helpline available to you.

For the Summer I can book a package Holiday through TUI to Jersey, again clearly states it will be with Blue Islands. Explains why but still get the same support as you would with TUI themselves.

So the fact they are already doing it, then I don't see the problem. Ryanair will undoubtedly get more bookings, TUI will get more people in their hotels. Increasing revenue for the company that clearly has fallen behind other competitors. They can then fully concentrate on what works best for the core operation of the airline itself, whilst generating extra revenue.

I think people automatically here Ryanair and think oh god. When truth be told the 5 or 6 times I have used them I never had an issue, flights on time and does what it says on the tin.

[SWBKCB]

Yes but what product exactly? TUI short/med haul is no different to RYR on board now (unless you’re lucky enough to get a Dreamliner in the summer months). As long as the full Tui package, I.e luggage is included I couldn’t care less if I’m flying 2/3 hours to a Mediterranean destination, although saying that with the reliability and on time performance of TUI post covid, Ryanair with a comparable on board experience is probably a better option!

Product as to where you fly when, etc, how you treat diversions, how you integrate with transfers. As others have stated, Thomson's have been doing this sort of things for years around the margins of their main business, most noticeably recently with EZY.

I'm not sure why this RYR deal is seen as a game changer, why is it different from the other arrangements? Is it any more than TUI using RYR filling to fill in gaps and smooth the curves in their core business?

[sewushr]

I didn't touch the apostrophes, nouns, plurals, spelling. All I did was to change the format so it was easier to read.

But I do appreciate the fact that I amaze you at times. Even though we have never ever communicated before and to be honest I've never seen you in the forum's before. But it's nice to know that I amaze you at times. It's nice to know that I put a smile on your face 😊

Forum's? Yes, that's what I mean.

I wasn't referring to the specifics of your short reply to DJ6. It was a general comment in relation to some of your (many) previous posts. I'm not a prolific poster myself, but have contributed to the Gatwick, Heathrow and other threads on a number of occasions Some of my posts have covered questions that you have raised (e.g. does anyone know why TAAG Angola didn't start flights to Gatwick in December?)

[hec7or]

TUI Airline Partners | TUI.co.uk (https://www.tui.co.uk/flight/airline-partners)
TUI already use Smartlynx, Aegean, Aer Lingus, Albastar, BA City Flyer, Freebird, Sun Express as "partner airlines" together with what they call "Non TUI airlines" so now they have chosen Europe's largest airline as a partner. I don't see a problem with this.

[G-FORZ]

It's a masterstroke, but marketing could have handled it better.
If the headline had been "TUI partners with Europes Largest Airline to Open All of Europes Destinations to its Customers with Flexibility and Convenience From Yor Regional Airports"... But no instead we get the populous negativity towards Ryanair and the fear TUI is selling out its own product.
Ryanair have revolutionised travel within Europe, people have access to destinations that were only on a map 15 years ago. If TUI is to expand its offerings without commitment of Aircraft this definitely is the way to go. Quality of product... Hey, it's a bus ride to a destination with all of them now, short haul is not going to be the Emirates experience.

[caaardiff]

As long as TUI get right and meet expectations then it's a good deal all round.

There's still differences between the two products and expectations with differ.

Overall the aircraft are similar. The on board offerings are similar. The basic procedures of Airport transit are similar.
From my own experiences i would say that generally FR crew are pretty good but TUI are far superior in the service they provide.
But there are also big differences which may catch people out.

Will baggage be automatically included?
Will airport check in be automatically included?
If not, are TUI passengers liable to FR's charges if they don't get it right?
Will TUI passengers be able to add on FRs own add-ons such as priority?
There are differences between hand luggage allowances, will TUI passengers automatically get 10kgs?
The other issue is FR only provide 1 check in desk per flight, whereas TUI provide 2. Generally TUI holiday passengers will have luggage which may slow down check in times.
Overall I like FR. Whenever I fly with them I make sure I book what I need, follow what needs to be followed, and if I don't im prepared to pay whatever penalty there is from not following the rules.
Every FR flight I've been on has been on time and without issue.

[SWBKCB]

Here's part of the Ryanair press release - is this not more about the RYR row with "unauthorised OTA Pirates" than a de-construction of the TUI business model. How is it different to the EZY/TUI arrangement?RYANAIR LAUNCHES NEW DEAL WITH TUI GUARANTEEING NO OVERCHARGING FOR RYANAIR FLIGHTS/ANCILLARIESRyanair, Europe’s No.1 airline, today (15 Feb) announced its latest partnership with leading travel company, TUI, who will now be authorised to offer Ryanair flights, seats, and bags to their customers as part of their holiday packages on the condition that they do not overcharge customers for Ryanair products. The deal will also guarantee TUI customers that their correct contact and payment info is provided to Ryanair, ensuring that they have direct access to their myRyanair account and receive important flight information straight to their email.

This deal puts TUI in stark contrast to the unauthorised OTA Pirates who continue to scam and overcharge customers with hidden mark-ups and provide fake customer contact and payment information to Ryanair. TUI customers will now not only benefit from TUI displaying Ryanair’s real low prices, without hidden mark-ups and providing correct customer contact and payment details to Ryanair but will continue to benefit from flexible payment plans and ATOL protection and will no longer need to complete Ryanair’s customer verification process which unauthorised OTA Pirates’ customers must continue to do.

TUI is Ryanair’s third approved OTA partner, alongside loveholidays and Kiwi, as the airline continues to demonstrate how OTAs can work transparently with airlines without scamming or duping customer with hidden mark-up, overcharges, and invented “service” fees.

[5711N0205W]

Flying with EasyJet on a Tui package in a few weeks so looks like there’s more of this around than just RYR

[rog747]

TUI Holidays have been using EasyJet's flights in cobbling together Packages from various UK Airports, either where the TUI charter is full, or to sell extra Package Holidays, and this has been going on for at least a couple of summers now.

That in itself was seen as a de-construction of the TUI business model of a ''Seamless Client Experience from start to finish'',
although Clients booking such a TUI holiday would still be ATOL protected.

TUI Holidays also sold extra Majorca Package Holidays using BA's SOU-PMI scheduled flights, when their own twice weekly charter with BACF went full.

Now Ryanair have been booted off some of the main Online Flight Booking selling sites, this latest tie-up with TUI Holidays (a la Easyjet) is of course, a seats boost for Ryanair.

Quite a few other smaller but popular Tour Operators began using Low-Cost Airlines versus to still charter (and to fill) their own seasonal series.
This includes Olympic Holidays, Inghams, Sunvil, Mark Warner, Neilson, Corsica and Sardinia Places.

Where previously in the past, some Tour Operators/Agents had cobbled together a holiday deal using 'separate bought seats' on Lo-Co flights (ie EZY Jet2 or RYR) and added the accommodation to call it a 'Package' (rather than use seats on a proper charter series) this caused an issue for CAA ATOL Protection for the Client, if that Tour Operator or Airline then failed.

In addition, TUI Airways UK are again short of seasonal charter aircraft capacity, hence we see the vast amount of 3rd party (ACMI) flying,
plus the setting up their own almost ''in-house'' ACMI airline Fly4; TUI's joint venture with Enter Air,
this is in addition to the now increased use of buying in seats from Low-Cost Airlines.

TUI have lost the use of their Canadian Partner Sunwings 737's, and face even more loss of capacity with the 767's gone, plus as yet, NO 757 replacement.
TUI have no short/medium haul aircraft now with a greater capacity than 189 passengers.
The loss of the 235 seat 757s, and the 328 seat 767's is a major blow for both Peak destinations, and seasonal Peak Periods.
The long delayed order for the new 737M-10 (235 seats) was to have begun deliveries back in 2021.
This aircraft is still potentially years away from fruition, yet alone to actually see it in-service.

TUI have to be mindful as to their future 'Model' and to keep Customer Satisfaction and Brand Loyalty.
They must be gutted (although IMO do they actually care?) they have lost the No.1 slot in the UK over to Jet2 Holidays.

I use and enjoy TUI Package Holidays, and they are in general very good, but I for one, would not book if my airline was to be on a Low-Cost.

[brian_dromey]

As rog747 points out the capacity lost from the Canadian 737s and the 757/767 fleet has to be found somewhere. Offering Ryanair, easyJet and even BA as options for customers is great. Our ski holiday is often a package, to be honest we’re fairly agnostic - it’s usually depends on the rest of the group and their requirements for ski school / kids clubs. Our strong preference is for Heathrow, it’s a 25 minute taxi and avoids the M25. Crystal offer BA flights, so thats what we choose. Not because we have a particular aversion to TUI, or a white-label airline, it’s just more convenient. We often have a few flights to choose from on a given day, so thats great as well, but the Crystal/TUI website doesn’t offer all the flights on a given day, its just a sub-set. Ryanair and easyJet bring that convenience and choice to regional airports.

Is there really much difference between a Ryanair 189 seat 738 and a TUI one?

[pamann]

Is there really much difference between a Ryanair 189 seat 738 and a TUI one?

When things go wrong, yes.

One of those will cancel the flight altogether. You’ll be going nowhere and left on your own to sort out the mess.

The other one will go ahead, even if it does entail a considerable delay. You’ll still get to go on your holiday.

[caaardiff]

When things go wrong, yes.

One of those will cancel the flight altogether. You’ll be going nowhere and left on your own to sort out the mess.

The other one will go ahead, even if it does entail a considerable delay. You’ll still get to go on your holiday.

Where does the responsibility lie with getting passengers to destination? Do TUI step in as the Tour Operator and look for alternatives where possible?

[double-oscar]

If you book a TUI holiday and a third party operator cancels your flight and does not offer you a suitable alternative I believe TUI will step in to find an acceptable solution.

[Bradley Hardacre]

Now Ryanair have been booted off some of the main Online Flight Booking selling sites

Hmmmm, that would require a degree of co-operation between the online TAs, not very likely. I think RYR booted the OTAs due to issues with EU261, refunds/compo etc and commission.

[HandsomeHarry]

As rog747 points out the capacity lost from the Canadian 737s and the 757/767 fleet has to be found somewhere. Offering Ryanair, easyJet and even BA as options for customers is great. Our ski holiday is often a package, to be honest we’re fairly agnostic - it’s usually depends on the rest of the group and their requirements for ski school / kids clubs. Our strong preference is for Heathrow, it’s a 25 minute taxi and avoids the M25. Crystal offer BA flights, so thats what we choose. Not because we have a particular aversion to TUI, or a white-label airline, it’s just more convenient. We often have a few flights to choose from on a given day, so thats great as well, but the Crystal/TUI website doesn’t offer all the flights on a given day, its just a sub-set. Ryanair and easyJet bring that convenience and choice to regional airports.

Is there really much difference between a Ryanair 189 seat 738 and a TUI one?


Is this how far TUI have fallen? People don’t see a difference between them and Ryanair?

Ryanair offer a great deal of options for low cost travel all over Europe and should be commended for that. From speaking to numerous people who have worked for them, I also believe their training department is first class.

However, customer service is non existent, the way the treat passengers is awful. They are non league when it comes to quality and service, also very tacky.

TUI on the other hand have always been a top quality service and ranked highly and rightly so.

These new age comparisons are shocking and very disappointing. I struggle to understand why TUI have fallen so far that some people see no difference between a TUI flight from the UK to Spain or a Ryanair flight on the same route.

[Cazza_fly]

Is this how far TUI have fallen? People don’t see a difference between them and Ryanair?

Ryanair offer a great deal of options for low cost travel all over Europe and should be commended for that. From speaking to numerous people who have worked for them, I also believe their training department is first class.

However, customer service is non existent, the way the treat passengers is awful. They are non league when it comes to quality and service, also very tacky.

TUI on the other hand have always been a top quality service and ranked highly and rightly so.

These new age comparisons are shocking and very disappointing. I struggle to understand why TUI have fallen so far that some people see no difference between a TUI flight from the UK to Spain or a Ryanair flight on the same route.

TUI are first and foremost a tour operator and a travel agent. People are forgetting this.

Alongside that core business, they have an airline division with the same name and branding. The airline does operate the majority of charters for the TUI tour operator, but not exclusively. This Ryanair partnership is not really new, nor is the use of a huge variety of airlines that they use to offer packages worldwide.

Ryanair, easyJet or any other airline being used in this manner are not operating on behalf of TUI Airways, or any other TUI Airline. But instead, offering a TUI package holiday. This is then giving the customer a choice on departure dates and times etc, but still allowing TUI to get custom and thus money into the business that may otherwise be lost. It's known in the industry as dynamic psckaging. It's the future of the industry, especially now that customers demands have become so expectant on having so much more choice on what and when suits them.

[Local Variation]

Ryanair offer a great deal of options for low cost travel all over Europe and should be commended for that. From speaking to numerous people who have worked for them, I also believe their training department is first class.

However, customer service is non existent, the way the treat passengers is awful. They are non league when it comes to quality and service, also very tacky.

TUI on the other hand have always been a top quality service and ranked highly and rightly so.


And that’s the thing. My experience of both is the polar opposite.

TUI holidays in resort ran by Mr B Fawlty. TUI airlines ran by his side kick Manuel.

[rog747]

And that’s the thing. My experience of both is the polar opposite.

TUI holidays in resort ran by Mr B Fawlty. TUI airlines ran by his sidekick Manuel.

LOL, that made me giggle and oh so cruel.

My experience of both is the polar opposite too.
TUI Holidays in the resort have always been nice, although I don't need much from them apart from the Airport Transfers work OK, and maybe the odd Excursion Tour to book.
As for TUI Airways - usually always been a pleasure for us, on-time, a nice clean aircraft, great super friendly crews, and very good resort airport check-in and handling.
I do miss the on-board Hot Meals, especially on a 3-4 or more hour sector, but hey ho that's progress so they say...

I pick and choose my Package Holidays carefully, and have always been very satisfied with TUI (or Thomsons in the past)

One thing that TUI has let down Customers very badly here in the Bournemouth area for the past few summers is the number of unplanned middle of the night Diversions to LGW STN BHX or BRS of the late inbound flight arrivals coming back to Bournemouth from RHO TFS and HER (which are all a 4 hour 'plus' flight)
These Diversions were due to the summer closure of BOH after about 00:30.
TUI had planned inbound flight arrivals as late as 23:55.
Many of the Diversions were poorly handled with 189 passengers arriving back in the dawn hours of the morning but not at Hurn,
and then finding that no onward transport having been arranged for them back to Dorset.
A poor show IMO.
This attracted a lot of bad local Press, and will make local and loyal TUI Holiday Customers think twice (including me) before booking a holiday with a late arrival back to BOH.

[ICEHOUSES]

Is this how far TUI have fallen? People don’t see a difference between them and Ryanair?

Ryanair offer a great deal of options for low cost travel all over Europe and should be commended for that. From speaking to numerous people who have worked for them, I also believe their training department is first class.

However, customer service is non existent, the way the treat passengers is awful. They are non league when it comes to quality and service, also very tacky.

TUI on the other hand have always been a top quality service and ranked highly and rightly so.

These new age comparisons are shocking and very disappointing. I struggle to understand why TUI have fallen so far that some people see no difference between a TUI flight from the UK to Spain or a Ryanair flight on the same route.
As someone who travels with Ryanair many times through business travel and recently flown tui a handful of times, the main difference customers will find I think is a lack of experienced crew onboard FR aircraft compared to tui , and a lack of cleanliness especially on mid afternoon flights as FR just do cabin tidy’s and not have proper turnaround cleans even on long flights arriving into the U.K, apart from that they are quite punctual to be fair though.

[CWL757]

G-TUIF has had its L1 door ripped off at BHX today, I believe they are designed to shear off when something like this happens so should be a relatively quick fix?
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1068x1105/screenshot_20240220_163349_instagram_58f3c0007a27b0329a3f74a 0685babe50f5c1e5b.jpg
At least it should have a shiny blue new door, unlike the rest of the livery 😀

[CabinCrewe]

G-TUIF has had its L1 door ripped off at BHX today, I believe they are designed to shear off when something like this happens so should be a relatively quick fix?
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1068x1105/screenshot_20240220_163349_instagram_58f3c0007a27b0329a3f74a 0685babe50f5c1e5b.jpg
At least it should have a shiny blue new door, unlike the rest of the livery 😀
The same door will probably be remounted if the shear attachments are the only damaged parts. That paintwork is almost as much of an embarrassment. Though often Britannia 737’s could be seen in various hybrid and half painted guises. Think I recall being on one with an all blue non striped ‘bottom’

[speed13ird]

Ryanair offer a great deal of options for low cost travel all over Europe and should be commended for that. From speaking to numerous people who have worked for them, I also believe their training department is first class.

However, customer service is non existent, the way the treat passengers is awful. They are non league when it comes to quality and service, also very tacky.

Yes, this is a common perception, however although TUI may be kinder to pax once onboard, the long wait in the terminal takes a bit of the tenderness off the smile.

[22/04]

I think a essential point is being missed here.

Most traditional TUI clients will I guess still be able to book a package based around a twice weekly or sometimes only weekly departure form a regional UK airport- I guess frequencies to popular resorts are greater but probably only from Gatwick and Manchester.

But there is a significant market of people these days who want to squeeze a holiday in more frequently than once a year or so and fly on the days they choose. From LTN for example EasyJet fly once a day and sometimes more to Palma. These people are used to having to cope on their own-if the outbound is cancelled they might go to Margate instead of Menorca (I know someone wo did this when ATC issues closed LGW) and if the inbound is cancelled they can usually find something that gets them home or almost home on the phone in time - and go and earn those consultancy fees that pay for their next trip - or worst case find a hotel to work from resort while searching for their next date if the holiday romance didn't work out until they can get a flight.

Many of those will book separates but some might like a package and accept the limitations of the flight for the sake of convenience.

[bobradamus]

The same door will probably be remounted if the shear attachments are the only damaged parts. That paintwork is almost as much of an embarrassment. Though often Britannia 737’s could be seen in various hybrid and half painted guises. Think I recall being on one with an all blue non striped ‘bottom’

How’s TUIF doing? guessing it’s gonna be out of action for a few days at least? 😂

[Mcvicker03]

All the talk of TUIs Summer 2024 flights, please see attached the current flight timetable for Birmingham, based on August 2024, fleet of 1x789, 1x788, 2x320s (SmartLynx), 8x737s, (mix of 738s and 7M8s)

Will be interesting to see if any routes are dropped between now and next summer, flight times are also bound to change once airport slots are firmed up, so please use this as a guide only.

all subject to change.

how did you find this information?

[OltonPete]

how did you find this information?

One website shows aircraft type, you can fill in the gaps.......:) www.g**g**fl*****.co.u* although it doesn't go as far as identifying the 788 and 789 flights but a dummy booking on the TUI site can work these out, as an example BHX-KGS on a Sunday clearly shows the 789 seat-map

The A320 is still showing in the flight only seat map but I got the impression the ex-TUI 738's now with Irish registrations were for this purpose (said example on the ground now in BHX).

Pete

[Mcvicker03]

One website shows aircraft type, you can fill in the gaps.......:) www.g**g**fl*****.co.u* although it doesn't go as far as identifying the 788 and 789 flights but a dummy booking on the TUI site can work these out, as an example BHX-KGS on a Sunday clearly shows the 789 seat-map

The A320 is still showing in the flight only seat map but I got the impression the ex-TUI 738's now with Irish registrations were for this purpose (said example on the ground now in BHX).

Pete
Sorry.I meant how did you find out the information about how many aircraft of the airline are at bhx?

[LiamNCL]

One website shows aircraft type, you can fill in the gaps.......:) www.g**g**fl*****.co.u* although it doesn't go as far as identifying the 788 and 789 flights but a dummy booking on the TUI site can work these out, as an example BHX-KGS on a Sunday clearly shows the 789 seat-map

The A320 is still showing in the flight only seat map but I got the impression the ex-TUI 738's now with Irish registrations were for this purpose (said example on the ground now in BHX).

Pete

I dont think the FLY4 aircraft are replacing the A320's. I think these will be at BFS NWI and 2 elsewhere replacing Sunwing.

[Markushillman]

I dont think the FLY4 aircraft are replacing the A320's. I think these will be at BFS NWI and 2 elsewhere replacing Sunwing.

Tui ACMI Plan 2024

BFS = Avion A320 x1
DUB = Avion A320 x1
CWL = Avion A320 x1
BHX = Fly4 B738 x2
EMA = Fly4 B738 x2
LGW = TBC B738 x2 (UK based ACMI Operator)
NWI = AirExplore B738 x1
MAN = Smartlynx B7M8 x3
MAN = TUIfly Nordic B789 x1

Plan was correct as of 1 month ago

[Danny G]

Tui ACMI Plan 2024

BFS = Avion A320 x1
DUB = Avion A320 x1
CWL = Avion A320 x1
BHX = Fly4 B738 x2
EMA = Fly4 B738 x2
LGW = TBC B738 x2
NWI = AirExplore B738 x1
MAN = Smartlynx B738 x3
MAN = TUIfly Nordic B789 x1

Plan was correct as of 1 month ago
So SE-RFZ back to do a third season on the CUN route this year. Will TUI ever get G-TUIP or has thet been cancelled now

[Markushillman]

Tui ACMI Plan 2024

BFS = Avion A320 x1
DUB = Avion A320 x1
CWL = Avion A320 x1
BHX = Fly4 B738 x2
EMA = Fly4 B738 x2
LGW = TBC B738 x2 (UK based ACMI Operator)
NWI = AirExplore B738 x1
MAN = Smartlynx B738 x3
MAN = TUIfly Nordic B789 x1

Plan was correct as of 1 month ago

Should mention those 3 Smartlynx are 737-8 Max

[taffyhammer]

According to the Boeing Dreamliner register, Against G-TUIP, it states order has not been taken up and has been re registered N2002D.

[azz767]

According to the Boeing Dreamliner register, Against G-TUIP, it states order has not been taken up and has been re registered N2002D.

Strange one with TUIP. Given their long haul programme next summer is not as substantial it makes sense, but also given that there is no direct replacement for the 767’s you’d think a couple of 788’s could permanently go to s/h config and there would be enough for another 9 to do year round.

[Matt995]

Tui ACMI Plan 2024

BFS = Avion A320 x1
DUB = Avion A320 x1
CWL = Avion A320 x1
BHX = Fly4 B738 x2
EMA = Fly4 B738 x2
LGW = TBC B738 x2 (UK based ACMI Operator)
NWI = AirExplore B738 x1
MAN = Smartlynx B7M8 x3
MAN = TUIfly Nordic B789 x1

Plan was correct as of 1 month ago

think Dublin is 2 A320s of Avion again, also still showing 1 A320 at EMA, 2 A320s at BHX, and 4 A320s at LGW according to the TUI website aircraft seat maps.

[pamann]

Tui ACMI Plan 2024

BFS = Avion A320 x1
DUB = Avion A320 x1
CWL = Avion A320 x1
BHX = Fly4 B738 x2
EMA = Fly4 B738 x2
LGW = TBC B738 x2 (UK based ACMI Operator)
NWI = AirExplore B738 x1
MAN = Smartlynx B7M8 x3
MAN = TUIfly Nordic B789 x1

Plan was correct as of 1 month ago

From what I’m hearing, Ascend Airways are the ACMI carrier for Gatwick.

[P330]

I think Matt produced a TUI summer 24 schedule some weeks back. Where that says 738, would that differentiate between a ACMI 738 and a TUI in house one? I am thinking Manchester for example which will have both….

[Matt995]

I think Matt produced a TUI summer 24 schedule some weeks back. Where that says 738, would that differentiate between a ACMI 738 and a TUI in house one? I am thinking Manchester for example which will have both….

personnally I am not able to differentiate between a ACMI & a TUI 738, last year on the TUI website, when you booked a flight/holiday, it did say if it was operated by SmartLynx, Avion, Sunwing etc, but they seem to have dropped that option this year.

My original Manchester timetable had 2 A320s in it, so I expect those flights to be operated by the Smartlynx 737 Max now, no idea what flights the other Max will do, and likewise at EMA/BHX don't know what flights the Fly4 aircraft will do. LGW again was showing 4 A320s, so if Ascend Airways is operating 2 737s, I presume that will replace 2 of the A320s?

[P330]

Thanks Matt,

[davidjpowell]

G-TUIF appears to be more than a little broken. Been on the ground for a couple of weeks now.

[Mr @ Spotty M]

davidjpowell
It's been on the ground for only 10 days and a door repair is not a five minute job, especially as my guess is, the required spares will be a problem.
Might not just be damage to the door and might require a hangar to complete the repairs.

[chaps1954]

I would think a hangar visit is preferential so all depends on space/slot as it will have to done at BHX

[HandsomeHarry]

Anyone who thinks this Ryanair deal will be a success is sadly mistaken.

I was in Terminal 3 at MAN today travelling with BA to LHR and the whole departure lounge is carnage with groups of Ryanair passengers everywhere.

100% not the ambience that TUI package holiday customers will want to experience. Was rather unpleasant to be honest.

[AP1995]

I doubt BA business passengers want to experience that either, but here we are

[AVGEEK7812]

G-TUIF appears to be more than a little broken. Been on the ground for a couple of weeks now.

Sorry but comments like this crack me up. Its only been 10 days not weeks.

Do u honestly think that its a small job whats happened to TUIF? Obviously its more than a ‘little broken’.

[speed13ird]

Anyone who thinks this Ryanair deal will be a success is sadly mistaken.

I was in Terminal 3 at MAN today travelling with BA to LHR and the whole departure lounge is carnage with groups of Ryanair passengers everywhere.

100% not the ambience that TUI package holiday customers will want to experience. Was rather unpleasant to be honest.

Seriously? I saw literally hundreds of TUI pax standing on the ramp having been disembarked from the 8 aircraft sat out on the apron queuing to get into arrivals at CFU last summer due to delays with passport control. That's 100% not the ambience.

[HandsomeHarry]

I doubt BA business passengers want to experience that either, but here we are

True, however the BA passengers will then board the aircraft in an orderly manner without every passenger being subject to making sure even the smallest of cabin bags meets the ridiculously small cabin bag requirements.

The BA passengers will then enjoy a pleasant experience onboard the aircraft to their destination with customer service fitting of a reputable carrier.

There is no way to dress up this agreement, it’s going to be a disaster for TUI and their reputation. Customer complaints will be through the roof.

As I previously posted, Ryanair are good at what they do, they provide low cost safe flights, they are very good at that.

However, they care not about the customer experience.

[Cazza_fly]

True, however the BA passengers will then board the aircraft in an orderly manner without every passenger being subject to making sure even the smallest of cabin bags meets the ridiculously small cabin bag requirements.

The BA passengers will then enjoy a pleasant experience onboard the aircraft to their destination with customer service fitting of a reputable carrier.

There is no way to dress up this agreement, it’s going to be a disaster for TUI and their reputation. Customer complaints will be through the roof.

As I previously posted, Ryanair are good at what they do, they provide low cost safe flights, they are very good at that.

However, they care not about the customer experience.

Yet again you are missing the point entirely. Its not a secret and the passengers turn up to the airport to just find put they are flying with Ryanair. They see it / are told as part of the booking process. This IS NOT on behelf of TUI Airways, but is just a TUI travel agent booking using Ryanair (like the have in the past among many other airlines) as part of the travel itinerary. However, theres no point in keeping explaining as clearly for some reason you have a grudge against Ryanair.

[OzzyOzBorn]

True, however the BA passengers will then board the aircraft in an orderly manner without every passenger being subject to making sure even the smallest of cabin bags meets the ridiculously small cabin bag requirements.

They will. And the fare they pay will reflect that they're flying with a network carrier, not a no-frills airline. You get the product you pay for.

[davidjpowell]

Sorry but comments like this crack me up. Its only been 10 days not weeks.

Do u honestly think that its a small job whats happened to TUIF? Obviously its more than a ‘little broken’.

Well yes. I thought the designed in weak points easily changed would have given way.

While Tui may have lots of planes, they don't have many 787's sitting around spare...

[Wurzel72]

Anyone who thinks this Ryanair deal will be a success is sadly mistaken.

I was in Terminal 3 at MAN today travelling with BA to LHR and the whole departure lounge is carnage with groups of Ryanair passengers everywhere.

100% not the ambience that TUI package holiday customers will want to experience. Was rather unpleasant to be honest.


It will be a success because TUI will now be able to offer Holidays using Ryanair Flights from Regional Airports where they dont even fly from or to.without having to utilise their own aircraft all the time.
I work in IT in Travel Industry and believe me all OTAs have been trying to get Ryanair content for years by whatever means. The fact Love Holidays, Kiwi and On the Beach have also just agreed terms with Ryanair will now give TUI the option to compete and offer Holidays to same Destinations as them

[L66MBD]

True, however the BA passengers will then board the aircraft in an orderly manner without every passenger being subject to making sure even the smallest of cabin bags meets the ridiculously small cabin bag requirements.

The BA passengers will then enjoy a pleasant experience onboard the aircraft to their destination with customer service fitting of a reputable carrier.

There is no way to dress up this agreement, it’s going to be a disaster for TUI and their reputation. Customer complaints will be through the roof.

As I previously posted, Ryanair are good at what they do, they provide low cost safe flights, they are very good at that.

However, they care not about the customer experience.

In my experience the boarding experience is virtually identical regardless of carrier or airport. Do you also have the same Aldi vs Tesco perception i wonder?

[FRatSTN]

In my experience the boarding experience is virtually identical regardless of carrier or airport. Do you also have the same Aldi vs Tesco perception i wonder?
That I'd have to disagree with. For me the boarding experience is something that differentiates the ULCCs more than anything else these days. Ryanair will start priority boarding 15-20 mins before the aircraft is even ready and for that period you're stood in a narrow linkbride/corridor or worse still outside in the cold/rain. I've worked out at STN that at any one time there must be at least 1,500 pax stood between boarding gate and aircraft in busy periods. For Ryanair they have no care other than enabling an on time departure, but for the airport that's 1,500 pax that could be spending money in the Terminal and for the passenger it's generally unpleasant. Unfortunately in STN's case the Terminal building is so capacity constrained at peak times that it's a god send Ryanair start the boarding process so early.

[SWBKCB]

That I'd have to disagree with. For me the boarding experience is something that differentiates the ULCCs more than anything else these days. Ryanair will start priority boarding 15-20 mins before the aircraft is even ready and for that period you're stood in a narrow linkbride/corridor or worse still outside in the cold/rain. I've worked out at STN that at any one time there must be at least 1,500 pax stood between boarding gate and aircraft in busy periods. For Ryanair they have no care other than enabling an on time departure, but for the airport that's 1,500 pax that could be spending money in the Terminal and for the passenger it's generally unpleasant. Unfortunately in STN's case the Terminal building is so capacity constrained at peak times that it's a god send Ryanair start the boarding process so early.

So the question is how typical is Stansted?

And is this TUI/Ryanair agreement just for the UK, or across the other countries TUI operate out of as well?

[Livman2000]

Yet again you are missing the point entirely. Its not a secret and the passengers turn up to the airport to just find put they are flying with Ryanair. They see it / are told as part of the booking process. This IS NOT on behelf of TUI Airways, but is just a TUI travel agent booking using Ryanair (like the have in the past among many other airlines) as part of the travel itinerary. However, theres no point in keeping explaining as clearly for some reason you have a grudge against Ryanair.

Exactly this. When I last booked to fly with TUI online from Manchester to Cancun in 2019, we were given the choice of TUI or Thomas Cook flights. A few years previous, I remember being in a Liverpool branch of Thomas Cook when a family behind were booking a holiday to Spain. They chose flights from Liverpool and were told by travel agent that Thomas Cook flights from Liverpool are operated by easyJet and if this would be ok. So people are given a choice at the time of booking.

[Matt995]

TUI appear to have now removed the 180 seater A320's from the summer timetable for Birmingham and East Midlands, and replaced them with 189 seater B737s, so presumable these will be the Fly 4 B738's

Birmingham summer base, now appears to be 1 B789, 1 B788, 2 B7M8's, and 8 B738's (6 of TUI, 2 of Fly4)

East Midlands summer base, appears to be 1 B7M8, 5 B738's, (3 of TUI, 2 of Fly4)

[AVGEEK7812]

Well yes. I thought the designed in weak points easily changed would have given way.

While Tui may have lots of planes, they don't have many 787's sitting around spare...

Id say your the only one that thought its easily changed. Im sure spare TUI 787 arent laying around easy.

Theres nothing they can do there. TUIF is badly damaged so theyd have to lease in or something.

[ClearedToNowhere]

TUI have Norse UK operating their Cancun and Barbados flights this weekend out of LGW.

[OltonPete]

Well yes. I thought the designed in weak points easily changed would have given way.

While Tui may have lots of planes, they don't have many 787's sitting around spare...

Don't be so sure. 3 x 787's sat all day on the 80's at BHX on Monday and never moved, obviously one was damaged so you can't count that but again a 789 has been on the ground 27 hours now at BHX although it is departing shortly. I suggest the scheduling department has not had its finest winter with the 787 fleet.

The Monday scenario happened quite a few times over the winter period as did the Friday one. I know BHX was originally scheduled ton have both Sal flights Monday and Friday due to be the 788 and in the end the whole season was operated by the MAX, which I am sure disrupted their plans. The Sal has done well this winter so whether it was operational or just not enough pax to bridge the gap from 189 to 300, I can't be sure

Pete

[Matt995]

G-TUIA B788 currently on route back to Manchester from Taipei after 6 weeks of heavy maintenance

[azz767]

G-TUIA B788 currently on route back to Manchester from Taipei after 6 weeks of heavy maintenance

Hope it’s had a spruce up externally as well whilst it’s been out there. All the 8’s in particular have looked tired for a number of years

[Livman2000]

G-TUIM has flown to Amman for maintenance. Hopefully G-TUIA is looking fresh from repaint.

[mdk31]

Hope it’s had a spruce up externally as well whilst it’s been out there. All the 8’s in particular have looked tired for a number of years
Saw it land via a live stream at Manchester- doesnt look like its had a repaint unfortunately

[Sean North]

I predict TUI-Ryanair will lead to lots of complaints. Even if customers know the flights are with a different airline, when the s**t hits the fan and something goes wrong, people will start searching for the TUI logo on a staff shirt.

The staff member will be unable to help as the flight would be entirely the remit of Ryanair. The poor customers will be directed from pillar to post and inevitably reduced to calling a number. You will have customers expecting the same TUI experience they know and will be disappointed when it doesn’t come true.

Or course, most will all go to plan and things won’t go wrong. But all you need is a minority and some sad faces in the Daily Mail to wreck your reputation further. I can imagine the stories:

“NHS heroes book family holiday package with TUI. Ryanair cancelled their flights and TUI hasn’t found new ones. Holiday cancelled and the children are so upset. We will never book through TUI again.”

At least with TUI flights operated by a third party the overall responsibility and organisation of that flight remains with TUI, and TUI will be the ones arranging a flight and scheduling possible replacements; they won’t be relying on a third party to do it who might not want to do it.

[double-oscar]

As you say, most Ryanair flights operate as advertised and hopefully customers expectations will be met. If there is a problem with a Ryanair flight I would only expect a few TUI passengers to be affected and providing TUI have the proper customer support the situation can be managed. The problem might arise where there is a significant disruption to the flying program and lots of flights are cancelled when TUI, if they don’t have sufficient resources in place, might struggle in meeting customers expectations.

[ATNotts]

I don't think that the TUI / Ryanair tie up is necessarily aimed at the families market, but instead allows TUI to compete more successfully as an online travel agent knitting together a Ryanair seat with a hotel that TUI has used its buying power to secure a better deal to destinations where there isn't a large TUI conventional package tour presence. This essentially helps TUI compete with the "Love Holidays" kind of operations for weekend breakers.

The "NHS hero" family is far more likely to prefer the fortnight at a TUI all-inclusive resort that will probably be offered more competitively on an inhouse TUI organised / flown flight.

[MARKEYD]

Doesn’t seem to be TUI finest last few weeks with B787 G-TUIF In Birmingham and now G-TUIJ stuck in BGI as apparently was struck by an ambilift just before departure back to LGW

[P330]

Anyone know what happened to TUIA in Cancun yesterday?

[Wycombe]

Doesn’t seem to be TUI finest last few weeks with B787 G-TUIF In Birmingham and now G-TUIJ stuck in BGI as apparently was struck by an ambilift just before departure back to LGW
Noted TUIJ making her way back across the Atlantic to LGW during the day yesterday so whatever happened can't have been too serious.

[pabely]

Norse 789 running BY60 to BGI currently, as it did yesterday.

[Sean North]

Every Summer TUI struggle with widebodies. It makes their decision to leave one sitting in the sunshine even more staggering

[Matt995]

TUI Fleet Allocation for Summer 2024 (based on high season August 2024):-


Belfast 1 x A320 Avion Express Malta

Birmingham 1 x B789 TUI Airways, 1 x B788 TUI Airways, 2 x B7M8 TUI Airways, 6 x B738 TUI Airways, 2 x B738 Fly4 Airlines

Bournemouth 2 x B738 TUI Airways

Bristol 6 x B7M8 TUI Airways

Cardiff 2 x B738 TUI Airways, 1 x A320 Avion Express Malta

Dublin 2 x A320 Avion Express Malta

East Midlands 2 x B7M8 TUI Airways, 2 x B738 TUI Airways, 2 x B738 Fly4 Airlines

Exeter 1 x B738 TUI Airways

Gatwick 2 x B789 TUI Airways, 3 x B788 TUI Airways, 3 x B7M8 TUI Airways, 1 x B7M8 Ascend Airways, 4 x B738 TUI Airways, 1 x B738 Ascend Airways, 2 x A320 Titan Airways

Glasgow 4 x B7M8 TUI Airways, 1 x B788 TUI Airways (Wed to Mon)

Luton 1 x B738 TUI Airways

Manchester 2 x B789 TUI Airways, 1 x B789 TUI Fly Nordic, 2 x B788 TUI Airways, 1 x B788 TUI Airways (Tue to Thu), 4 x B7M8 TUI Airways, 3 x B7M8 Smart Lynx Malta, 6 x B738 TUI Airways

Newcastle 1 x B788 TUI Airways (Fri to Wed), 3 x B7M8 TUI Airways, 2 x B738 TUI Airways

Norwich 1 x B738 Air Explorer

Stansted 2 x B738 TUI Airways

[P330]

Anyone know what happened to TUIA in Cancun yesterday?

Well whatever is wrong with it, it remains in CUN today. Passengers stayed in local hotels on Saturday night and bussed to the airport on Sunday for a second-go.. This also failed, leading to passengers going to a hotel again for a second night.

[RudderTrimZero]

The older 787s are a curse. They really are.

[Smudge's Lot]

There is no longer one sitting in the desert
As far as I known, it has now been de-registered and no longer TUI "property"

[SWBKCB]

Doesn't appear to have been ever officially registered