Flybe-V1

[allan1987]

Why does Esken keep going round and round in my head?

I don't think Esken would interested after what happened to stobart Air,

Though while could be possibly Cityjet could be interested in flybe if their backers falko and fortress would be willing put in Money to buy it

[The96er]

Why does Esken keep going round and round in my head?

I think Esken (aka Stobart) do not have 2 brass pennies to rub together at the moment and have more pressing concerns without investing in another airline venture.

[L1011effoh]

Probably the wrong forum for this, but I was recently told that FlyBe 2.0 were paying their line Captains £50k pa. If so, that's a significant deterioration in terms and conditions from FlyBe 1.0 for long suffering unemployed pilots. Anyone able to confirm or deny this?

[bean]

Have you heard of a pandemic

[EI-BUD]

Probably the wrong forum for this, but I was recently told that FlyBe 2.0 were paying their line Captains £50k pa. If so, that's a significant deterioration in terms and conditions from FlyBe 1.0 for long suffering unemployed pilots. Anyone able to confirm or deny this?
I'm guessing if you are Dash 8 type rated at this time you have few alternative employment options..

[cavokblues]

I completely understand why people have accepted new positions with the new airline but I'm fairly sure the FlyBMI / Loganair TUPE ruling would give them a fair chance of success should they wish to go down that route. I think it's quite clear there has been a transfer of business from the old airline to the new.

[ATNotts]

I completely understand why people have accepted new positions with the new airline but I'm fairly sure the FlyBMI / Loganair TUPE ruling would give them a fair chance of success should they wish to go down that route. I think it's quite clear there has been a transfer of business from the old airline to the new.

I doubt it. The original business entered administration, and was bought back out of administration, which is quite different from a managed takeover of a going concern by another, or a contract, e.g. seamless transfer of a car manufacturers trackside logistics from operator to another. One of the ways that a previously unprofitable business is bought out of administration and turned around is, of course, cutting overheads, one of which is inevitably staff, another is renegotiating equipment leasing agreements, and another premises leases.

[bean]

I doubt it. The original business entered administration, and was bought back out of administration, which is quite different from a managed takeover of a going concern by another, or a contract, e.g. seamless transfer of a car manufacturers trackside logistics from operator to another. One of the ways that a previously unprofitable business is bought out of administration and turned around is, of course, cutting overheads, one of which is inevitably staff, another is renegotiating equipment leasing agreements, and another premises leases.
Quite right

[SWBKCB]

But bmir also went into administration.

Case is here:

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5f1585c03a6f405c0afa7f9e/British_Airline_Pilots_Association_v_Loganair_Limited_-_4107788.2019_Fair_Judgment.pdf

[cavokblues]

I'll be honest, I don't really see much of a difference. FlyBMI was placed into administration, Loganair took the bits they wanted and the rest of the company was left in administration.

I'm not an legal expert so I don't know the ins and outs of a TUPE claim but there does seem to be a reasonable amount of evidence that there is a transfer of business and it's not simply a new airline hiring pilots out of work.

However, from reading the notes on the LHR slots appeal what sticks in one's craw is Thyme OpCo (laughably) arguing they only shut down the old airline to rid it of it's business liabilities because they thought that was what the CAA wanted and preferred. They even suggested if they had realised that would mean they would lose the slots they would have looked into other restructuring methods - presumably pumping enough working capital into the airline to keep it afloat.

[ATNotts]

But bmir also went into administration.

Case is here:

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5f1585c03a6f405c0afa7f9e/British_Airline_Pilots_Association_v_Loganair_Limited_-_4107788.2019_Fair_Judgment.pdf

One very big difference;

BMIR and Loganair were subsidiaries of Airline Investments Limited (“AIL”).

That had all the hallmarks of a "creative failure" facilitated by the holding company of both businesses. Flybe Mk.1 simply went belly up and was sold on by the administrators.

[bean]

One very big difference;



That had all the hallmarks of a "creative failure" facilitated by the holding company of both businesses. Flybe Mk.1 simply went belly up and was sold on by the administrators.
Correct again
People just don't seem able to get this

[SWBKCB]

One very big difference;

That had all the hallmarks of a "creative failure" facilitated by the holding company of both businesses. Flybe Mk.1 simply went belly up and was sold on by the administrators.

The judge in the case didn't agree - see para 242. There are considerable similarities in the shareholdings of Mk 1 and Mk 2

This is the first para of the judges conclusion - sound familiar?

Having considered all the factors, I am persuaded that there was a relevant transfer of the business of BMIR. Loganair acquired nearly all the planes and a significant majority of the pilots who previously operated BMIR’s activities. The planes and pilots continued to fly scheduled and some contract routes. The activity is essentially the same. The fact that they are integrated into the business of Loganair does not prevent this being a relevant transfer.

[ATNotts]

Correct again
People just don't seem able to get this

People quite rightly have a problem with the way in which corporate law works where administration is concerned; frankly I have a big problem with it too.

However it what it is, and unless multiple people lobby their MPs it's not going to change, and frankly even if they did it probably won't under the current administration since too many supporters of the government party will have used it to their (financial) advantage. Best hope would be a change of administration, but even then politicians only see "jobs saved" or "jobs created" not the fallout for suppliers and the reduction in salaries and conditions of employment that generally follow.

[cavokblues]

I'm far from a legal expert but, from my own layman's eyes, I don't see a huge difference between the Loganair and Fly BMI case and this one. If anything, reading that decision posted above has cemented that view.

As I posted earlier we have it from Thyme OpCo's own mouth in the Heathrow slots appeal decisions that they could have saved the old airline. And we know some of the people involved with the old airline are now involved with the new one. In many ways you could equally say this was creative failure to transfer the assets they wanted and rid themselves of the liabilities.

[ATNotts]

I'm far from a legal expert but, from my own layman's eyes, I don't see a huge difference between the Loganair and Fly BMI case and this one. If anything, reading that decision posted above has cemented that view.

As I posted earlier we have it from Thyme OpCo's own mouth in the Heathrow slots appeal decisions that they could have saved the old airline. And we know some of the people involved with the old airline are now involved with the new one. In many ways you could equally say this was creative failure to transfer the assets they wanted and rid themselves of the liabilities.

You may be right, however how many people who have lost their jobs and perhaps not found new work on anywhere near the same salaries would be willing to risk money they very probably don't have to chance on a legal action with a very uncertain outcome?

[cavokblues]

I completely agree with you. I'm not sure I would risk it if I was in that position.

[SWBKCB]

The bmi regional/Loganair case was brought by Balpa

[Saabdriver1]

Correct, the bmir/Loganair case was supported by BALPA - who seem to be conspicuous by their absence in this particular case even despite the rumoured salaries on which Q400 pilots are being offered "new" jobs.

There are very clear similarities between the two cases. bmir and Loganair had a common shareholder. Flybe 1 and Flybe 2 had a common shareholder - the largest shareholder in Flybe 1 is the sole shareholder in Flybe 2. They are proposing to fly the same aircraft type on the same routes. There are obviously those arguing otherwise, presumably to suit their vested interests, but the two situations have so many similarities that it is surprising BALPA is not supporting TUPE action in the case of Flybe 2. And with yesterday's revalation about the intent of that shareholder, you'd think they should be getting involved to protect pilots interests.

[RogueOne]

RE BALPA;

I would venture a guess that as Flybe v2 is a new company (is it really?!) :E - and because only only a handful of pilots have been hired, paying passengers haven't been carried yet and not a fare producing route has been flown in anger, BALPA have not even spoken a dicky bird to anyone inside the place yet.

I think Flybe v2 would quite like this, as it will have allowed them to shape the company in the favour of the shareholder, and not include any of the collective agreements, employee protections, salary structures etc etc that were there before.

Capt's Salary above sounds low, but is it on a par with other regional operators, what are Logan, Eastern, et al paying? - Whatever pocket money they'll throw at the FOs could be even worse, obviously they will accept, because everyone wants a job.

[Airbanda]

I'm far from a legal expert but, from my own layman's eyes, I don't see a huge difference between the Loganair and Fly BMI case and this one. If anything, reading that decision posted above has cemented that view.

TUPE generally applies where a going concern moves from one owner to another, for example a contract passes from one office cleaning outfit to another. Those managing the decline of Fly BMI temporarily lost sight of the TUPE ball; effectively they cocked up.

The transfer of aircraft and crews between BMI and Loganair, while not exactly seamless, too place over a short period of time. The fact that TUPE was engaged was down to the particular set of facts prevailing in that case. I suspect that the Tribunal Judge, who sat alone, found it a fairly marginal decision. One might wonder how the cookie would have crumbled if the Judge had sat with wingmen from (a) employer and (b) union/workforce backgrounds.

By the time FlyBe 2 starts it will be pretty much two years since FlyBe 1 ceased operations. There's not a snowball's chance of that being seen as a TUPE transfer.

[SWBKCB]

So Flybe is the same airline when it comes to slots, but not when it comes to TUPE?

I think at the very least there is a question worth asking

[ATNotts]

So Flybe is the same airline when it comes to slots, but not when it comes to TUPE?

I think at the very least there is a question worth asking

You can bang the drum as often as you like, and though I stand four square behind your sentiments, there is not a snowballs chance in hell of getting TUPE terms in this situation are Airbanda and Bean have also pointed out. Believe me, I have seen the same thing happen in many different industrial and commercial sectors over the last few years. Commercial aviation is not in some way different.

[Jamie2009]

Not a TUPE in my view given the length of the break in employment but I’m not a lawyer. I won’t be asking the question.

I’m guessing the carriers flying at the moment planned for a pretty crap winter with few passengers but it could be terrible.
Families not flying to be together over Xmas due to fear of the new variant and possible working from home being introduced.

It’s great for Flybe to still be safe in the harbour out of the storm as Chris Hope put it.

[ATNotts]

Not a TUPE in my view given the length of the break in employment but I’m not a lawyer. I won’t be asking the question.

I’m guessing the carriers flying at the moment planned for a pretty crap winter with few passengers but it could be terrible.
Families not flying to be together over Xmas due to fear of the new variant and possible working from home being introduced.

It’s great for Flybe to still be safe in the harbour out of the storm as Chris Hope put it.

Either by happy accident, or design, services aren't said to be starting until March or thereabouts. Had they kicked off in November then I think the venture could have turned out to be very short-lived.

[cavokblues]

I don't think there is a time limit on a TUPE claim - a quick google suggests the period of protection by TUPE is indefinite.

Anyway, it's an interesting discussion which will probably never be tested in a court.

[Airbanda]

I don't think there is a time limit on a TUPE claim - a quick google suggests the period of protection by TUPE is indefinite.

Anyway, it's an interesting discussion which will probably never be tested in a court.

Let's see if a claim is made. If so will it be brought via Balpa or one of the cabin crew unions?

[southamptonavgeek]

The name on AOC 2470 was changed from Thyme Opco Ltd to Flybe Ltd on December 1st. Would they have had to wait a certain period of time (in this case just under six months) from the revocation of the 'original' one?

[Fletch]

No idea why BALPA would choose to fund a case with a questionable chance of winning a case for a few who have willingly choosen to work under these T&C's. I'm a plus 1 on TUPE being a non starter in law in this case. .. it would be hard to argue any sort of relevant employment after a 2 year gap...

[Buster the Bear]

TUPE applies to a take over. I work for company Y, company Z takes over my company or the contract that I am employed for. Having negotiated a TUPE transfer in the past, I just do not see how this law can apply?

[Wallsendmag]

TUPE applies to a take over. I work for company Y, company Z takes over my company or the contract that I am employed for. Having negotiated a TUPE transfer in the past, I just do not see how this law can apply?
I'm not sure that's correct. I work in the Rail industry and have been TUPE'd several times. But one time when the company was bought rather than a new company take over the Franchise TUPE didn't apply. It's more like Company A loses the contract and company B takes over using the staff from Company A.

[SWBKCB]

Loganair didn't take over bmi Regional, but the ruling was that TUPE applied. There are a number of similarities between the two cases (and of course a number of differences!)

[BusterHot]

Can someone explain how TUPE applies in this case? On the 5 Mar 20, Flybe (Mk1), went into administration and I, and many others, lost our jobs, were left financially out of pocket and have either found other jobs or retired. A few lucky ones were kept on by the Administrators to help wind the thing up and some of them have transferred over to the “new” Flybe.

Now Flybe Mk2 are starting up, people are being “recruited”, on reduced salaries and different Terms and Conditions. Although highly improbable, it is entirely possible that Dash 8 qualified people from elsewhere could be among them. I say improbable because they have all the training records and will recruit exactly who they want; can you blame them?

So how can you say that this is a case of an old failing company being taken over, when we know that the whole thing is a bit of a “smoke and mirrors” exercise to get what they want, who they want and on the terms they’re prepared to offer?

It all seems like a new startup to me with the management in possession of a few “titbits” from the past.

[bean]

Busterhot. You are completely correct. This TUPE business has been going around in relentless circles since early summer 2020

[cavokblues]

I've no idea if TUPE does apply in this case but the judgement posted above from the Loganair / BMI case does have a few similarities about transfers of business.

If i was a betting man I would say it doesn't apply in this situation as I think a major difference between this set up and Loganair / BMI is there appears to have been a transfer of some parts of BMI's business pre administration.

[biddedout]

I am sure the new board and owner would have been very careful to ensure that there was a solid legal firewall between the two companies. The administrators will have been aware of this in their attempts to sell assets and the pension scheme lawyers (with the pension regulator looking over their shoulder) will also have been looking closely at the legal frameworks. The fact that BE2.0 seem to be comfortable with taking on former employees is also a sign that they have the TUPE issue well and truly tied down. I am sure BALPA will have drawn similar conclusions and at the end of the day with resources stretched, would the membership be happy in blowing a huge amount of union cash at a possibly very weak case?

[bean]

Well done biddedout. The whole thing has become boring, monotnous and stupi

[BA318]

I’m not taking a position either way but all these posts that of course management have thought of everything are a bit presumptuous.

If managers and businesses were always able to think of everything they wouldn’t encounter problems or collapse.

Legal issues are often open to interpretation also. One set of lawyers may say you have no case while another will fight it and win.

BA are one of the biggest carriers around and have still made massive cock ups which have resulted in legal rulings against them or large settlements.

The only way we’ll know is if a case is brought. Until then we might as well move on.

[cavokblues]

Well done biddedout. The whole thing has become boring, monotnous and stupi

Completely disagree.

[bean]

Silly
If a case is brought they'll just fold the company. How simple is that?

[biddedout]

And it is very unlikely that BALPA will want to bring such a case. Given the circumstances, if Flybe does take on a number of former employees and those people mange to get airborne again with type ratings re-validated, BALPA wouldn't be doing anyone a favour by launching action which would only jeopardise the whole thing. Also, not all those new start will be members an in the unlikely event that they did win, it wouldn't be very smart for non fee-paying members to gain from a potentially very risky action. I am sure BALPA will come knocking on the door for recognition in good time but they are not daft enough to risk the launch of something which might just bring a glimmer of hope to the UK pilot employment scene.

[cavokblues]

Silly
If a case is brought they'll just fold the company. How simple is that?​

You don't know that. We've been consistently told the backers have deep pockets and are in it for the long haul so they can't argue people being paid what they could be legally entitled to might bring them down. It's not as though former Flybe pilots from the old airline were on astronomic salaries anyway!

And I'm not advocating a case being brought, just discussing the merits of whether their might potentially be one.

[cavokblues]

And it is very unlikely that BALPA will want to bring such a case. Given the circumstances, if Flybe does take on a number of former employees and those people mange to get airborne again with type ratings re-validated, BALPA wouldn't be doing anyone a favour by launching action which would only jeopardise the whole thing. Also, not all those new start will be members an in the unlikely event that they did win, it wouldn't be very smart for non fee-paying members to gain from a potentially very risky action. I am sure BALPA will come knocking on the door for recognition in good time but they are not daft enough to risk the launch of something which might just bring a glimmer of hope to the UK pilot employment scene.

I think there's a lot of decent points made here.

[stewyb]

All this talk and still they only have one aircraft on fleet!

[Albert Hall]

It was always said that TUPE didn't apply in an insolvency situation and to be fair, I suspect Loganair probably had all of the advice in the world and arguments as to why it didn't apply, but lost that fight nevertheless. You have a lot of similarities between the two cases and the only indisputable difference I can see is the passage of time between Flybe 1 and Flybe 2. That might make enough of a difference all on its own versus the Logan/bmi case about whether there's a case that could be brought here and whether it may fail or succeed.

And when it comes to BALPA, there could be two reasons why they may go for it. First would be to support members who are either not in a job or in a job which pays significantly less than they had at Flybe 1. Second could be to support members who have got job offers at Flybe 2 but on significantly inferior T&Cs to Flybe 1 (as is rumoured to be the case) although that certainly would be biting the hand that feeds, so less likely. Parallels with Loganair again by the looks of it.

In other words, I don't think any of us can be certain until or unless this is put to the test in a tribunal. Until that point, even a legal opinion is just that - an opinion. Will be interesting to see if this aspect of the debate dies quietly or is rumbling along in the background.

[Asturias56]

"One set of lawyers may say you have no case while another will fight it"

And no lawyer will ever tell that you don't have a chance - they make their money by fighting cases - they don't care how they turn out as long as they get paid

[Citrine]

I totally agree with whoever has put a post saying "all this talk and they only have one aircraft"

[ATNotts]

I totally agree with whoever has put a post saying "all this talk and they only have one aircraft"

But why would they have multiple aircraft at this stage, since they have no plans to begin operations until the Spring. It's perhaps as well that "armchair CEOs" don't run businesses!!

[Wycombe]

I totally agree with whoever has put a post saying "all this talk and they only have one aircraft"

Surely at the moment it would be unwise for them to financially burden themselves with lease/operating costs on aircraft that they don't need yet, other than a few to carry out training etc.

[Hotel Uniform Yankee]

So why aren't they selling tickets?

[davidjohnson6]

I can see a very good argument for deferring a big route launch announcement to the first or second week of January (depending of course on the C word) when the UK is back in work mode

[Citrine]

BA have already made an announcement for there route network from LGW tickets have already gone up for sale..... what is flybe 2 waiting for ?? There is also the question of where will they fly to as out if there 46 routes 42 have been taken🤷‍♀️and some of those by ba citiflyer and easyjet. With the article in the telegraph business section about wanting to sell the business I would be getting cold feet if I had a job offer from.them.

[davidjohnson6]

BA at Gatwick are largely targetting people who want to go on a beach holiday, particularly over the summer. Peak booking period for this begins immediately after Xmas.

Flybe in its previous incarnation had a significant dependency on corporate travel. Corporate travel is likely to see minimal new bookings before about 05 January. Furthermore, UK domestic routes like BHX-Scotland on a prop are not going to attract hordes of beach-seekers booking 6 months in advance - think shorter periods between booking and travel

The new Flybe have just one chance to get media publicity for the initial set of routes; that needs to be timed to be of maximum use, not at a time when potential (corporate) customers are not paying attention and likely to forget the publicity info by the time they need to make reservations

IMHO, Flybe should stay quiet until early or mid Jan, and then go for a maximal publicity boost

[SKOJB]

I am probably totally wrong but for some reason the whole Flybe2 exercise just doesn't sit right and as mentioned above, media reports suggesting a sale even before a launch doesn't bode well in my book, of course time will tell. Corporate travel will most likely never return to previous levels and Flybe2 cannot rely on this for future growth and profitability, which therefore highlights the need for a robust UK and EU leisure route network. However, many airlines are now competing in this market and so it could become a race to the bottom for many and you can only assume this is Flybe's intention to undercut and ultimately remove other carriers, this however will not enhance their bottom line on any balance sheet. Regional France may be attractive for them using a 78 seater prop and other cities like Dusseldorf and Paris that have performed well in the past could be looked at again. I wish them well but still to be convinced on their viability long term!

[Citrine]

Only time will tell....I just hope folk who have been offered jobs are not stung again with job losses. The whole industry is up in the air once again and its dog eat dog for both the domestic and European market .

[Jamie2009]

I think the opposite, I’d rather be the debt free new comers like Flybe v2 and Emerald rather than the airlines who have had to weather the storm.
I think news will come thick and fast in the new year.

[speedrestriction]

I think the opposite, I’d rather be the debt free new comers like Flybe v2 and Emerald rather than the airlines who have had to weather the storm.
I think news will come thick and fast in the new year.

There is not enough information available at this stage to make any sort of rational decision in this regard. The incumbents have a natural advantage of being established in their respective markets albeit they may have taken on additional debt. The long term effects of this are difficult to gauge without knowing what financing costs and fare inflation might look like in the medium to long term.

Newcomers face issues regarding brand awareness and marketing costs. Emerald have an advantage here from the perspective of piggybacking IAG’s network and distribution channels. Flybe will obviously need to spend a lot on marketing but most people will still understand the brand. Flybe employees will have zero worries as long as the initial investors are prepared to underwrite the costs of the operation which will be significant. After several seasons of operation the investors will hopefully have a proof of concept which will then allow them to raise further funding to accelerate growth. I would be very surprised if the initial investors will be prepared to directly fund growth beyond the second year - the most likely good outcome would be growth funded by a mixture of operational profit and taking on debt, at which point flybe will be in a similar position to the incumbents. Airlines are too capital intensive to set up without taking on debt.

This is crystal ball territory but I am sure everyone wishes flybe and its new employees every success.

[Jamie2009]

This is crystal ball territory but I am sure everyone wishes flybe and its new employees every success.

Not sure about that part………..

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

It's not a "brand new airline". Flybe themselve are using the notion of a returning airline, they're technically and legally new but that's not how they see themselves or how the market will percieve them. Even Norwegian had the decency to use a new brand in "Norse Atlantic" as their new offering, no relation, honest, same people, same model, same chance of shareholder pain.

[Citrine]

I've always thought they should have changed the name.... the name flybe has too much bad history ie flymaybe, then people will remember it was one of the airlines that went bust!! I know all this rebranding comes at a cost but they should have considered it.

[inOban]

But surely all the routes that did make money are now have new incumbents who have had over a year without competition.
Anyone in the BHX area who wants to get to Edinburgh will either take the train or wait for the next EZY flight.

[BHX5DME]

But surely all the routes that did make money are now have new incumbents who have had over a year without competition.
Anyone in the BHX area who wants to get to Edinburgh will either take the train or wait for the next EZY flight.
EDI is only twice a day from BHX, so still be big gap for FlyBe2 to fill, same goes for GLA.

[BA318]

EDI is only twice a day from BHX, so still be big gap for FlyBe2 to fill, same goes for GLA.

But is there demand at a profitable price for more flights per day? Just because Flybe1 flew it x number of times a day doesn’t mean that is the sustainable level of flights.

[Wallsendmag]

Whilst there might be other operators on routes operated by Flybe1, they're not operating them at anywhere the frequency the routes were being flown in 2019.
Theres a very good and fairly obvious reason for that.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

So long as easyJet can fill an A320 series 1-2 daily on trunk routes it's not compelling business case that a 4 x daily Q400 service is viable alongside. EZY don't offer business friendly frequency but they do offer genuine loco pricing and a real jet airliner.

You can have either have low volume high frequency service or high volume low frequency but seldom both. Zombie Flybe have to get easyJet off their target routes as otherwise they'll be beaten on price by a competitor using an A319/A320 and also lose a load of the volume needed to make money. This new flybe business model assumes that another airline will redeploy assets out of "their" old domestic market and leave it for them to re-enter. Yet easyJet may well decide they can kill off a competitor by not doing so at all. "Due diligence" in aviation is how almost all new airlines fail in their first two years.

[Atlantic Explorer]

Gone: Older Q400 aircraft with perpetual maintenance issues.
Gone: Bases that didn't make money
Gone: Routes that didn't make money
Gone: Lots of overhead costs and reduction in others, making the business more streamlined
.

That remains very much to be seen. Very different market now from when the old flybe was on the go for a whole host of reasons.

[SWBKCB]

"Gone : old debt" - isn't that easy to write when it wasn't your money that was taken?. Oh well, all the money is owed to those nice Venture Capitalists now.

And we are back to the old confusion - "we're not old, we are new but all are pax will come flocking back cos we are old, and we are still purple..."

[bean]

"Gone : old debt" - isn't that easy to write when it wasn't your money that was taken?. Oh well, all the money is owed to those nice Venture Capitalists now.

And we are back to the old confusion - "we're not old, we are new but all are pax will come flocking back cos we are old, and we are still purple..."
What on earth are you talking about
No money is owed to venture capitalists
So much ignorance on this thread

[Citrine]

The purple family with an even bigger 💜heart who couldnt even offer some of the excellent cabin crew there jobs back when they re-applied and some didnt even get an interview......I'm glad I stayed away from it and I've been told the ones who didnt get jobs back or didnt even get an interview theyve had a lucky escape especially when that article came out that cyras want sell..... I've also heard over the grapevine that crew who have been offered there jobs back that they need to start making money straight away. Once again current management must be in cuckoo land if they think its gonna start making money straight away. If an airline cant make money when the industry was booming I question what chance have they got coming out of a pandemic. If flybe are going to rely on business traffic they need to look at the way businesses are operating meetings done over zoom and alot of companies wanting to help our lovely planet and go greener. Things have changed a lot for airlines since March 2020.

[Local Variation]

So long as easyJet can fill an A320 series 1-2 daily on trunk routes it's not compelling business case that a 4 x daily Q400 service is viable alongside. EZY don't offer business friendly frequency but they do offer genuine loco pricing and a real jet airliner.

As frequent domestic flyer for business, I don't care one jot on the price nor that it's a jet. And from what I witnessed on Flybe Mk1, very many were in the same boat, all carrying laptop bags.

They could have doubled my fare price BHX/EMA to BHD and I wouldn't have batted an eyelid. Still peanuts in the grand scheme of things for a business passenger.

But I do need frequency and I do need the right times of day. Train, BHX/EMA to GLA? yeah right. BFS, nope as well, its needs to be BHD.

[BHX5DME]

As frequent domestic flyer for business, I don't care one jot on the price nor that it's a jet. And from what I witnessed on Flybe Mk1, very many were in the same boat, all carrying laptop bags.

They could have doubled my fare price BHX/EMA to BHD and I wouldn't have batted an eyelid. Still peanuts in the grand scheme of things for a business passenger.

But I do need frequency and I do need the right times of day. Train, BHX/EMA to GLA? yeah right. BFS, nope as well, its needs to be BHD.

I agree having flown many times on business to both GLA & EDI and the fare often over £200 day return.
I can see FlyBe2 doing high frequency BHX-GLA/EDI

[Jamie2009]

Flybe 2 can’t match the previous number of flights to EDI, GLA or BHD as they utilised both a BHX and an away based aircraft. There’s no Scottish bases at the moment and none immediately on the cards.

The best they could do is two morning flights and two afternoon flights to EDI, GLA but that would tie up an aircraft all day at the expense of other routes. At the start the number of aircraft will be numbered whilst they are repainted / checked over and crews are trained plus the unknown future COVID situation.

[inOban]

People always compare last-minute, anytime train fares with prebooked non flexible air fares. Just now you can buy a non-flexible train ticket from Birmingham to Edinburgh on 13th January for between £26.20 and a bit over £40, depending on the time of day. If you want just over 4 hours uninterrupted time to work on that business plan, then 1st class is available.

Of course travelling to Ireland or even the IoM is very different. Flying is inevitable and I'm sure that service frequency will respond to demand. The question remains as to how quickly demand will recover and whether your business can justify losing you for the whole day for a meeting which might only last a couple of hours at most.

[Albert Hall]

It's still quite amusing reading the thread.

Previous poster is correct that there is a very good reason why flight frequencies on most (if not all) former Flybe routes are much lower than they were back in 2019! It will be a very different marketplace where new Flybe is up against easyJet on EDI, GLA, AMS, Loganair on ABZ, INV and IOM, Blue Islands and Aurigny on JER & GCI, Emerald / EI Regional on BHD and so on.

I think the jury is out as to whether the Q400s will be any more reliable this time around and also whether the new CEO will prove more capable than those who went before. Yes, those individuals are gone but that does not automatically mean the new guy will be better. All of this has still to be proven.

Add into the mix that you have a venture capital backer which is allegedly already looking to sell the airline before it's even flown, salaries pitched at a level which aren't credible beyond the very short term, and it is certainly a volatile mix. My own view is that they're deluded, but that's never stopped anyone before in this industry!

[True Blue]

As frequent domestic flyer for business, I don't care one jot on the price nor that it's a jet. And from what I witnessed on Flybe Mk1, very many were in the same boat, all carrying laptop bags.

They could have doubled my fare price BHX/EMA to BHD and I wouldn't have batted an eyelid. Still peanuts in the grand scheme of things for a business passenger.

But I do need frequency and I do need the right times of day. Train, BHX/EMA to GLA? yeah right. BFS, nope as well, its needs to be BHD.

So Local Variation, what is wrong with Bfs? Come March, when the new Flybe might be starting. Ezy has 4/5 flights a day Bfs - Bhx at good times. And Bfs isn't, contrary to what some might think, off the end of the earth. How will Flybe compete with that? When Flybe operated Bhd - Bhx before they collapsed, Ezy had nowhere near the frequency they have now. It will be a challenge for them I think.

[Local Variation]

[QUOTE=inOban;11160986]People always compare last-minute, anytime train fares with prebooked non flexible air fares. Just now you can buy a non-flexible train ticket from Birmingham to Edinburgh on 13th January for between £26.20 and a bit over £40, depending on the time of day. If you want just over 4 hours uninterrupted time to work on that business plan, then 1st class is available./QUOTE]

I can only speak for myself. But the example you give is dead time to me as a business passenger.

I am not paid to sit on a domestic travel service aka a train, for 4 hours plus, noddying around on my laptop trying to look busy.

I will also now need to book an overnight hotel in GLA to re-capture this wasted travel time, to see the Customers that justified the trip in the first place........and then the same trip back doing my expenses on the train.

Its not about direct cost, it's all about time.

I do appreciate that many other passengers use the same services as me for non-business reasons btw. And their needs differ to mine and are of equal importance to them, eg cost.

[inOban]

As a matter of interest, when you have a business day in Glasgow, what time would be your first appointment, and what time would you expect to leave home for your flight?

[SWBKCB]

What on earth are you talking about
No money is owed to venture capitalists
So much ignorance on this thread

Just remind us all who the major shareholder is? They haven't given money to BE to go away and play planes

[bean]

Just remind us all who the major shareholder is? They haven't given money to BE to go away and play planes
There is only 0ne share holder and like all share holders in all companys they want a return on their investment.
Your last two posts are nonsencical

[BA318]

There is only 0ne share holder and like all share holders in all companys they want a return on their investment.
Your last two posts are nonsencical

While you are correct no money is owed. We all know how it works. This is a venture capitalist firm which is bankrolling Flybe with the aim of making a nice profit when they sell it on. They are not pouring this cash in for the fun of it. They are expecting a healthy return on their investment sooner rather than later if media reports are to be believed.

[Jamie2009]

While you are correct no money is owed. We all know how it works. This is a venture capitalist firm which is bankrolling Flybe with the aim of making a nice profit when they sell it on. They are not pouring this cash in for the fun of it. They are expecting a healthy return on their investment sooner rather than later if media reports are to be believed.

Doesn’t anyone who owns or part owns a business want a return on their investment? Don’t they make more money if it’s very successful which is a great motivator to be a success. Are the shareholders of easyjet happy at losing a billion a year or having their holding diluted in cash raises as in other airlines?

[SWBKCB]

Doesn’t anyone who owns or part owns a business want a return on their investment? Don’t they make more money if it’s very successful which is a great motivator to be a success. Are the shareholders of easyjet happy at losing a billion a year or having their holding diluted in cash raises as in other airlines?

easyJet have previously made money, Flybe2 haven't so they are swimming in different ponds.

Any money they haven't earned is debt, look where the money went from Flybe1

[davidjohnson6]

Flybe have a single shareholder who has well over 50.1% of the shares and thus has complete control. Pension funds each holding maybe 1% of the shares of a large company tend to just sell shares of companies that are underperforming - it's rarely worth their time to become activist investors and start sacking directors. Venture capital firms will be initially supportive if they feel directors need a bit of help and they will provide that help, but ultimately are not known for being forgiving - instead they are rather more activist - if the company doesn't do well, directors can find themselves threatened with "either you resign for personal reasons or we will call an EGM and force you out in a very public way". Think Lord Sugar on The Apprentice
Easyjet has a broadly diversified shareholder base. Stelios as the largest shareholder owns well under 50% of the shares. Thus, no investor has complete control. The directors therefore have greater control of the company as it becomes harder for individual shareholders to persuade enough other shareholders to combine to create opposition over 50% to what the directors propose

If Flybe flops in spring / summer 2022, there is likely to be swift and unambiguous action by the shareholder against the directors.

[BA318]

Doesn’t anyone who owns or part owns a business want a return on their investment? Don’t they make more money if it’s very successful which is a great motivator to be a success. Are the shareholders of easyjet happy at losing a billion a year or having their holding diluted in cash raises as in other airlines?

Different sectors have different aims and styles. Typically pension funds for example take a long term view. VC firms on the other usually take a much shorter term view and are looking for a sale much earlier on. And as David says above, it’s much easier for a shareholder who has the majority to flex their wishes unlike in other carriers like Easyjet, BA etc.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

Good points on the need for high cost high frequency fares for business BUT to balance the books they also the rest of the volume to fill 78 seats on leisure and lower end fares, which EZY will have already nabbed. Hence you could operate 4 x daily trunk routes on the Q400 with 20% load factors and high fares, then you'd be Eastern and niche. Flybe were never as high cost as T3 and they did chase volume to keep fares down. Right now I can't see them getting the lower fares volume until easyJet give up, if at all. So there is a need as stated above, but not sure how it gets met with EZY still in market. The competitor leaving is a dependency to any profitability IMHO.

[EI-BUD]

Alot of valid commentary above. A few points I'd make. The example of the business traveller who wants frequency above price, this is fine but the issue is currently that their is a drastic reduction in business travellers, prob a decline in excess of 75% in general. On top of this given the challenge on internation routes particularly at this time makes domestic flying much more attractive to easyJet, so they'll be happy to keep flying said routes are low returns. In my opinion Flybe need to avoid getting into the low cost airline space, it's insane. easyJet will provide flights early morning say after 4pm and after 6pm, which covers most requirements of the core market. This is generally what they do and between morning flying and late afternoon a leisure route will be flown that is not time sensitive.

Flybe needs to carve a space in the market at scale to make its cost base effective yet avoiding low cost airline routes. I think there is a wide range of international routes that are too think for a jet yet have demand especially from Birmingham, some from Manchester and others from regional airports by exception. They will come back in time however, to start flying before summer I can't see it.

[cuthere]

So Local Variation, what is wrong with Bfs?

Having arrived at NI’s “international” gateway on Weds last, I’ll assume this question is either sarcasm, or rhetorical (though the use of a ? suggests otherwise).

Having been herded off the Bristol flight through a completely random door (like one’s own front door), into a dark, dank corridor, onward to a bag collection area which is likely older than me……

I look forward warmly to Emerald and FlyBe MkII making business travel to from the U.K. from a decent airport the pleasure it once was. Good luck!

[BHX5DME]

. They will come back in time however, to start flying before summer I can't see it.[/QUOTE]

They should be flying well before the Summer !

[Harold77]

I reckon before 2022 is out or early 2023 Flybe could be serving Teesside. I say this because I reckon there is scope for some routes that would need an aircraft with bigger capacity than 50 but less than a large 150 seat airliner. Flybe's 78 seat capacity would fit this market really well for frequent regular services with better cost units per seat compared to lower capacity aircraft.

[cavokblues]

I reckon before 2022 is out or early 2023 Flybe could be serving Teesside. I say this because I reckon there is scope for some routes that would need an aircraft with bigger capacity than 50 but less than a large 150 seat airliner. Flybe's 78 seat capacity would fit this market really well for frequent regular services with better cost units per seat compared to lower capacity aircraft.

I think there are probably far larger and more lucrative markets to target.

Teeside can barely support a London service. Flybe won't want to compete with KLM on Amsterdam. I can't see any room on Dublin with Loganair there and I'm not sure any returns would make the fight worthwhile. There is usually a reason why if Ryanair aren't operating a Dublin service from a UK airport.....

I genuinely struggle to see any suitable potential routes which might make any money whatsoever for an airline like Flybe from Teeside.

[Citrine]

Folk need to stop speculating about routes and wait and see. I mean the way the whole industry is going cyras might just pull the plug completely.

[Citrine]

I mean virgin did in march !!

[Harold77]

I think there are probably far larger and more lucrative markets to target.

Teeside can barely support a London service. Flybe won't want to compete with KLM on Amsterdam. I can't see any room on Dublin with Loganair there and I'm not sure any returns would make the fight worthwhile. There is usually a reason why if Ryanair aren't operating a Dublin service from a UK airport.....

I genuinely struggle to see any suitable potential routes which might make any money whatsoever for an airline like Flybe from Teeside.

Teesside can support a London service and has done very well in the past. The current situation is none of the air industry making. Covid has knocked the bottom out of everywhere, foreign travel decimated, offices working from home etc.

We just need to see Covid restrictions removed, freer travel allowed and everything getting back to normal. Only once things have returned to normal then comparisons can be made.

[BHX5DME]

Teesside can support a London service and has done very well in the past. The current situation is none of the air industry making. Covid has knocked the bottom out of everywhere, foreign travel decimated, offices working from home etc.

We just need to see Covid restrictions removed, freer travel allowed and everything getting back to normal. Only once things have returned to normal then comparisons can be made.

Teeside wont be in FlyBe2's plans at all in my opinion, in fact I can only see BHX in the short to medium term.

[ATNotts]

Teesside can support a London service and has done very well in the past. The current situation is none of the air industry making. Covid has knocked the bottom out of everywhere, foreign travel decimated, offices working from home etc.

We just need to see Covid restrictions removed, freer travel allowed and everything getting back to normal. Only once things have returned to normal then comparisons can be made.

Things will get back to a "new normal" in which businesses think not twice, but three times, before permitting travel by employees. The first option is likely to be Teams or whatever other platform they choose to use. Sure, there'll still be business travel but not the same level as pre-pandemic, but I suspect that when all the obstacles that are currently stacked up to make overseas leisure travel even more of a ball-ache than it had become over recent years leisure travel will quickly recover. Will that be in 2022? Probably not.

If Flybe are to make a fist of the new operation it will need to be on the tried and tested routes, where there isn't competition, rather than chasing subsidies (bribes) from this that and the other airport to open up bases. That really worked well for the former incarnation didn't it? Think Doncaster and Cardiff! The scattergun approach is essentially making the same mistakes as before, and if businesses don't learn from other's mistakes then they will fail.

[SKOJB]

Teeside wont be in FlyBe2's plans at all in my opinion, in fact I can only see BHX in the short to medium term.

Have heard whispers that SOU is in BE2's plans sooner rather than later!

[MARKEYD]

Can’t imagine Southampton jumping for joy about that to be honest

[Jamie2009]

Given a fella has just announced on LinkedIn he’s the new flybe air crew manager in Belfast I think the first two bases are almost certainly BHX and BHD.

[Local Variation]

Given a fella has just announced on LinkedIn he’s the new flybe air crew manager in Belfast I think the first two bases are almost certainly BHX and BHD.

It's not me in case you were wondering 😉

[Alteagod]

Seems reasonable but i think it just said Belfast not BHD or BFS. Emerald and Flybe2 at same airport under current covid life......carnage

[Citrine]

Virgin have just announced a partnership with easyjet to feed into there longhaul operation ..... you would think they would offer some support to the new flybe since they pulled the plug on it March 2020. What a kick in the teeth hey!!!

[SWBKCB]

Virgin have just announced a partnership with easyjet to feed into there longhaul operation ..... you would think they would offer some support to the new flybe since they pulled the plug on it March 2020. What a kick in the teeth hey!!!

How much did Virgin lose on the original BE deal?

[davidjohnson6]

How much flying does Virgin do at BHX and the rumoured other Flybe bases of BHD and SOU ? Not a lot...

[BACsuperVC10]

Given a fella has just announced on LinkedIn he’s the new flybe air crew manager in Belfast I think the first two bases are almost certainly BHX and BHD.
BHD - LPL maybe a possibility, not served presently.

[ATNotts]

BHD - LPL maybe a possibility, not served presently.
A lot more tenable than many of the ideas floated on some other threads. Ready market and (presently) without competition.

[Asturias56]

"Virgin have just announced a partnership with easyjet to feed into there longhaul operation ..... you would think they would offer some support to the new flybe since they pulled the plug on it March 2020. What a kick in the teeth hey!!!"

Virgin never had any emotional investment in Flybe - and any new Flybe is going to have to be so different from the last one it really doesn't impact

[Citrine]

How much flying does Virgin do at BHX and the rumoured other Flybe bases of BHD and SOU ? Not a lot...

Well so far folk have announced that bhd and manch are on the cards for flybe....and guess what that's where virgin are partnering with easy!!!! and for the one who quoted virgin had no emotional attachment to flybe. Well I hope you never get made redundant overnight and get dumped on!!! Virgin tried there hand at shorthaul flying with little red and failed and failed again with flybe. Only folk who have gone through redundancy will understand the mental strain it has had on people !!!!😡😡

[Asturias56]

Citirine _ i didn't say I agreed with what Virgin did with FlyBe - it was pretty disgraceful - my point is that Virgin have never really had any interest in Flybe and to assume they'd cut a deal with an airline which is not yet flying as opposed to EasyJet - which is - is not very likely.

I have been on the thick end of a couple of takeovers - I agree it's a very unpleasant and bruising experience which very adversely impacted the physical and mental health of a number of very close colleagues

[Winston Fumble]

From what I have seen on this website, I thought the relaunch of Flybe was due in March, presumably, at the start of the summer schedule - thus far all I’ve seen regarding this, is a shareholder wanting to offload his investment of £45 million before the proposed re start of the airline.

Surely, if the new Flybe was serious in starting up again in just a few weeks from now, there would have been a lot of press coverage regarding a start dates and routes etc. Have I missed something?

[southamptonavgeek]

G-JECY added to the Flybe AOC and is on its way into the UK now.

[SWBKCB]

G-JECY added to the Flybe AOC and is on its way into the UK now.

Yes - Exeter not Birmingham

[Citrine]

From what I have seen on this website, I thought the relaunch of Flybe was due in March, presumably, at the start of the summer schedule - thus far all I’ve seen regarding this, is a shareholder wanting to offload his investment of £45 million before the proposed re start of the airline.

Surely, if the new Flybe was serious in starting up again in just a few weeks from now, there would have been a lot of press coverage regarding a start dates and routes etc. Have I missed something?
No you havent missed anything ...... we all wait for the big route announcement.

[Winston Fumble]

No you havent missed anything ...... we all wait for the big route announcement.

Thank you Citrine, guess they’d better get a move on then, time is ticking away.

[BHX5DME]

Thank you Citrine, guess they’d better get a move on then, time is ticking away.
Not long to wait :-)

[dixi188]

Maybe waiting for March 5th so they launch 2 years after Flybe mk1 demise?

[wanna]

Maybe waiting for March 5th so they launch 2 years after Flybe mk1 demise?

I would imagine it would be closer to that or after given the current state of COVID. January is always a low months for Business / Regional travel and given the shear volume of COVID plus work from home recommendations not a lot travel is going on. Feb is also a quiet Month, so late Feb early to Mid March depending on COVID would make sense, the vast majority of people booked flybe like they would a train, at the last minute so theres no need for long lead in on route announcements.

Over Christmas I did see some interesting posts on Linkedin from previous crew who have been rehired for Belfast bases. Haven't seen anything though for BHX. Liverpool airport also positing about the 'training' flights... maybe an easter egg?

[Wallsendmag]

I would imagine it would be closer to that or after given the current state of COVID. January is always a low months for Business / Regional travel and given the shear volume of COVID plus work from home recommendations not a lot travel is going on. Feb is also a quiet Month, so late Feb early to Mid March depending on COVID would make sense, the vast majority of people booked flybe like they would a train, at the last minute so theres no need for long lead in on route announcements.

Over Christmas I did see some interesting posts on Linkedin from previous crew who have been rehired for Belfast bases. Haven't seen anything though for BHX. Liverpool airport also positing about the 'training' flights... maybe an easter egg?
People don't book trains at the last minute unless someone else is paying and business travel is a tiny fraction now of what it was pre covid..

[jmdavies86]

If they're planning to launch soon, it would be sensible to coincide it with the start of the S22 season (27/28th March) and they'll perhaps want a 6-8 week lead-up time for initial bookings so any announcement will likely be made towards the end of January or in early February.

[SKOJB]

If they're planning to launch soon, it would be sensible to coincide it with the start of the S23 season (27/28th March) and they'll perhaps want a 6-8 week lead-up time for initial bookings so any announcement will likely be made towards the end of January or in early February.

hope you mean S22!

[davidjohnson6]

Why wait until the end of Jan or early Feb ? Xmas holiday season is now well and truly over.

[jmdavies86]

hope you mean S22!

Indeed I did; I've edited my post accordingly - thanks!

Why wait until the end of Jan or early Feb ? Xmas holiday season is now well and truly over.

I would imagine that they may well have taken a slightly more cautious approach due to the outbreak of the Omicron variant and the potential threat of another lockdown coming in the New Year.

Other carriers such as Emerald Airlines announced the launch of their routes back in mid-December, however Eastern only announced the launch of LGW-NQY flights towards the end of November and those started in mid-December, although I do understand that this is a PSO-funded route.

[jmdavies86]

So with Emerald announcing yesterday that they're establishing a base at BHD and looking to fly to EDI, GLA, BHX, MAN, EXT & LBA, where does this leave Flybe 2.0?

I thought that they're also thinking of a base at BHD and possibly even recruiting for positions; surely the market can't support both operators competing on the same route(s), can it? Perhaps BE are considering some other routes that Emerald are not currently looking to serve...i.e. CWL (if Eastern don't resume it), IOM and/or NWI perhaps?

[BACsuperVC10]

So with Emerald announcing yesterday that they're establishing a base at BHD and looking to fly to EDI, GLA, BHX, MAN, EXT & LBA, where does this leave Flybe 2.0?

I thought that they're also thinking of a base at BHD and possibly even recruiting for positions; surely the market can't support both operators competing on the same route(s), can it? Perhaps BE are considering some other routes that Emerald are not currently looking to serve...i.e. CWL (if Eastern don't resume it), IOM and/or NWI perhaps?

LPL would be an obvious one.

[Cozy F]

Can’t say that a succession of attempts at BHD-LPL ever resulted in glowing success for Flybe Mk1!

Would seem to me if Emerald are looking to mop up viably competing regional routes into GB from BHD against EZY at BFS that Flybe would be much better served setting up shop in a few strategically separated mainland U.K. points (maybe Birmingham, Southampton, Glasgow??) and looking to use their equipment to operate a number of prospectively viable routes within the U.K. and Ireland and also into near European airports. But no doubt there is some great reality that I’m not aware of!

[Saabdriver1]

Can anyone confirm that these people really have a clause in their pilot employment contracts forcing you to accept unpaid leave whenever your employer decides that they might want to temporarily lay you off? I'm hearing some interesting tales about rates of pay but this one takes the biscuit. Or rather, doesn't take the biscuit as you'll have no income to buy any?

[Jamie2009]

Can anyone confirm that these people really have a clause in their pilot employment contracts forcing you to accept unpaid leave whenever your employer decides that they might want to temporarily lay you off? I'm hearing some interesting tales about rates of pay but this one takes the biscuit. Or rather, doesn't take the biscuit as you'll have no income to buy any?

Utter nonsense

[Saabdriver1]

I'm not convinced. I've heard the exact same thing from two different people now, both of whom I'd trust to be right. That's certainly the way they have read the bit in question....

[wanna]

Utter nonsense

But have you actually seen / signed a contract with Flybe MK2? Are you employed with them and working for them, being paid etc at this time?

[Jamie2009]

But have you actually seen / signed a contract with Flybe MK2? Are you employed with them and working for them, being paid etc at this time?

Yep that’s why I know it’s utter nonsense. Clearly I’m not going to reveal any information that isn’t in the public domain or even engage in speculation but I can knock that load of rubbish on the head.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

Hang on though @jamie2009 you can't just assume your own contract is the same as everyone elses! Cabin Crew Training Managers may not have the same clauses as Q400 pilots perhaps?

[Jamie2009]

Saabdriver1 asked about the “pilot employment contract” and I answered him. What he’s been told isn’t true.

[SWBKCB]

Hang on though @jamie2009 you can't just assume your own contract is the same as everyone elses! Cabin Crew Training Managers may not have the same clauses as Q400 pilots perhaps?

Thought "play the ball, not the man" was one of yours, S1F? Yellow card!:ok:

[JSCL]

Utter nonsense
Tripe from the Loganair camp? Shock!

[BACsuperVC10]

Can’t say that a succession of attempts at BHD-LPL ever resulted in glowing success for Flybe Mk1!

Would seem to me if Emerald are looking to mop up viably competing regional routes into GB from BHD against EZY at BFS that Flybe would be much better served setting up shop in a few strategically separated mainland U.K. points (maybe Birmingham, Southampton, Glasgow??) and looking to use their equipment to operate a number of prospectively viable routes within the U.K. and Ireland and also into near European airports. But no doubt there is some great reality that I’m not aware of!


Mk1 made a mess of BHD- LPL. Mark 2 would have to do much better to compete with Easyjet. If they get it right, there is a demand there.

[Flightrider]

JSCL, I hope you get the irony behind that statement, coming from you as it does. That gave me a good laugh.

[055166k]

Training again today. Certainly getting the hours in. Good Luck to all......especially any ex-Southampton crews. Miss you.

[Sharklet7]

Hi, do we know when Flybe 2.0 plan to start operations again? Has a date or rough time been announced?

[ATNotts]

Hi, do we know when Flybe 2.0 plan to start operations again? Has a date or tough time been announced?
No date but a tough time is probably guaranteed. Sorry, couldn't resist it - bloody predictive text!

[SKOJB]

All seems to have gone very quiet for a summer timetable start. Tough times ahead indeed!

[ATNotts]

Prediction :

If they don't commence in summer 2022 then they won't start at all.

[Sharklet7]

No date but a tough time is probably guaranteed. Sorry, couldn't resist it - bloody predictive text!
Thanks for that, a tough time is indeed guaranteed.
Not sure how they plan to fit back into the market and build a business given majority of routes now taken by competitors

[wanna]

Hi, do we know when Flybe 2.0 plan to start operations again? Has a date or rough time been announced?

If rumours are to be believed, thy could be finalising the sale to one of the companies approached late last year, such as Blue Islands. It could then explain why Blue Islands have ended their EXT - MAN operation as has been noted on the Exeter page. Run flybe to focus on the U.K and Blue Islands for the CIs. Could even be a joint effort with Aurigny and Loganair as they're all in some form of partnership.

[Sharklet7]

If rumours are to be believed, thy could be finalising the sale to one of the companies approached late last year, such as Blue Islands. It could then explain why Blue Islands have ended their EXT - MAN operation as has been noted on the Exeter page. Run flybe to focus on the U.K and Blue Islands for the CIs. Could even be a joint effort with Aurigny and Loganair as they're all in some form of partnership.

That would be an interesting development. There had been discussions that the regional airlines in the UK would create further alliances with each other. It all sounded as if a move towards the creation of a single regional airline operator, albeit perhaps individual airlines still operating under their own brand etc.
Will be interesting to see what happens. Given they are presently recruiting staff perhaps we might hear something in the near future

[MARK 101]

Rumour at BHX is start date mid March. Also believe a 3rd aircraft is due imminently

[BA318]

That would be an interesting development. There had been discussions that the regional airlines in the UK would create further alliances with each other. It all sounded as if a move towards the creation of a single regional airline operator, albeit perhaps individual airlines still operating under their own brand etc.
Will be interesting to see what happens. Given they are presently recruiting staff perhaps we might hear something in the near future

Blue Islands needed loans from Jersey in 2020 and I don’t think they have ever made much profit and their owners wanted to sell them off at one point. I think there would also be regulatory issues with co-ordinating schedules and reducing competition before any sale was announced. As for involvement of the other players - Loganair has no need and is arguably a stronger brand than Flybe now and Aurigny is forever loss making and bailed out by Guernsey.

[BHX5DME]

Rumour at BHX is start date mid March. Also believe a 3rd aircraft is due imminently

Likely to be end of March when Summer schedules start so should hear something very soon.

[wanna]

Blue Islands needed loans from Jersey in 2020 and I don’t think they have ever made much profit and their owners wanted to sell them off at one point. I think there would also be regulatory issues with co-ordinating schedules and reducing competition before any sale was announced. As for involvement of the other players - Loganair has no need and is arguably a stronger brand than Flybe now and Aurigny is forever loss making and bailed out by Guernsey.

In Blue Islands defence most businesses in 2020 received some form of support from governments around the world, airlines specifically had some fairly high profile loans. Maybe this has enabled them to be in a much stronger position now than before covid making new ventures possible.

Aurigny are owned by the States of Guernsey so not bailed out, they're just run as what they are, a state owned airline offering connectivity to the people of Guernsey. Yes they receive large funds, but its just essentially another state department with a given budget.

[BA318]

In Blue Islands defence most businesses in 2020 received some form of support from governments around the world, airlines specifically had some fairly high profile loans. Maybe this has enabled them to be in a much stronger position now than before covid making new ventures possible.

Aurigny are owned by the States of Guernsey so not bailed out, they're just run as what they are, a state owned airline offering connectivity to the people of Guernsey. Yes they receive large funds, but its just essentially another state department with a given budget.

Ok. Let me phrase it differently. Aurigny has never (or very rarely) made money. It’s one thing subsidising it for their local residents, it would be another thing altogether to start buying another likely loss making carrier. Aurigny has a given budget but goes beyond that, making bigger than expected losses and has to go asking for more money. That is a bailout. Just like when the Gov gave TFL more money it was explicitly called a bailout.

Has Blue Islands ever made a profit?

There is no need for any of these carriers to buy Flybe. There are few barriers to entry on the likely routes so if they have £45+ million laying around they would be better off just fighting Flybe and winning.

[jmdavies86]

Blue Islands needed loans from Jersey in 2020...

My understanding of this is that the loan wasn't given because Blue Islands needed it to survive, but the Government of Jersey gave Blue Islands the loan in order for them "...to become a 'base carrier' for the island for at least the next 10 years" [according the BBC (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-jersey-53305476#:~:text=Blue%20Islands%20will%20be%20given,least%20 the%20next%2010%20years)]. This is probably because they were really badly exposed when Flybe 1.0 went into administration.

I'm sure that someone will be able to correct me though if I'm wrong.

[eye2eye5]

This proposal is unlikely to be helpful for Flybe, Loganair, Eastern etc:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-60197462

[TartinTon]

This proposal is unlikely to be helpful for Flybe, Loganair, Eastern etc:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-60197462

Reading a bit further could this acually be good news for the domestic carriers? It would seem to limit the payout to 100% of the fare paid which is far less than under EU261 although they would obviously be on the hook for delays of a shorter duration than currently.
This is far more equitable than the ridiculously punitive 261 conditions.

[eye2eye5]

I was working on the basis that, due to distances involved, domestic AOG instances would be much easier to cover within the existing 3 hour deadline than the proposed new 1 hour limit.

[lfc84]

job ads have been updated today

https://www.linkedin.com/jobs/search/?f_C=23151%2C2730623&geoId=92000000&keywords=flybe&location=Worldwide&currentJobId=2900684203&position=1&pageNum=0

[manx crab]

This proposal is unlikely to be helpful for Flybe, Loganair, Eastern etc:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-60197462

I hope that the compensation would be based on the total amount charged to the consumer.

[SWBKCB]

I hope that the compensation would be based on the total amount charged to the consumer.

From the link posted:Under the new plan, which is under consultation, passengers would be entitled to:


25% of the ticket price for a delay of more than one hour but less than two hours
50% of the ticket price for a delay of more than two hours but less than three hours
100% of the ticket price for a delay of more than three hours.

[TCAS FAN]

Have just received an email from "[email protected]" inviting me to update my contact details. Looks as if its going to happen, only question is when and apart from BHX, where from?

[Sharklet7]

Have just received an email from "[email protected]" inviting me to update my contact details. Looks as if its going to happen, only question is when and apart from BHX, where from?
Well there appears to be alot of their existing BHD are being recruited! Potential second Base at Belfast to add to their Birmingham base??

Interesting to see of they announce BHD base given Emerald Airlines (Aer Lingus Regional) plans to set up a base there as soon as they receive their UK AOC!!

[BA318]

Have just received an email from "[email protected]" inviting me to update my contact details. Looks as if its going to happen, only question is when and apart from BHX, where from?

I’ve seen people on social media claiming this breaks GDPR rules given it’s supposedly a new company? Anyone know if it is? Someone had tweeted that they had made a complaint to the Information Commissioner.

[ATNotts]

I’ve seen people on social media claiming this breaks GDPR rules given it’s supposedly a new company? Anyone know if it is? Someone had tweeted that they had made a complaint to the Information Commissioner.

I imagine that given the "new" Flybe bought the database from the administrators, and they are now "inviting people to update their contact details" with, I'm sure somewhere towards the foot of the email, an "unsubscribe" link they'll be fine. Had they simply started bombarding the entire database with spam then I suspect things might have be different.

I assume that this database update is a prelude to the launch of their Summer 2022 programme, though actually I'm slightly surprised that since slots must have been applied for at BHX at least, unless they have entered spurious destinations, there hasn't been a "leak" from someone subscribing to ACL data by now. It would be naughty to start selling Summer 2022 flights without departure and arrival slots I would have thought - not that that bothers the likes of Jet2 and TUI flogging 2023 Summer already!

[GayFriendly]

I've had an email too. Last flight I did with them was May 2019 BHX-DUS.

I think there's a lot going on behind the scenes. I n past times I worked with the person who seems to be heading up the ground teams recruitment and they are a very experienced and credible aviation professional.

I also know a number of people who've started their cabin crew training.

The only strange thing is the lack of any news about when they're starting and where, not even any social media teasers which suggests it might be a big one off all over the press launch?

I think they will reappear but as a much smaller and simplified version of BE Mark 1.

[BA318]

https://www.cityam.com/flybe-pilots-subject-unusually-aggressive-confidentiality-rules-airline-fly-again/?amp=1

Flybe is under fire for it’s “unusually aggressive” non-disclosure agreements for staff about their working conditions.

[BusterHot]

https://www.cityam.com/flybe-pilots-subject-unusually-aggressive-confidentiality-rules-airline-fly-again/?amp=1

Flybe is under fire for it’s “unusually aggressive” non-disclosure agreements for staff about their working conditions.

I hope I’m proved wrong, but sadly I don’t see this ending (starting?) well.

Lots of professionals desperate to make it work (just like last time), managed by people with different agendas. This isn’t Flybe of old (probably a good thing), but a business first and foremost and an airline second. I think that come 2 weeks post launch, most crews will be wondering what they’ve joined.

But I’ll say it again, I hope I’m proved wrong.

[Citrine]

I hope I’m proved wrong, but sadly I don’t see this ending (starting?) well.

Lots of professionals desperate to make it work (just like last time), managed by people with different agendas. This isn’t Flybe of old (probably a good thing), but a business first and foremost and an airline second. I think that come 2 weeks post launch, most crews will be wondering what they’ve joined.

But I’ll say it again, I hope I’m proved wrong.
Totslly agree with you......managed by people with different agenda's . Theyve messed around with folks lives once already and there doing it again with all this speculation firstly that cyras want to sell. In reality there is no need for another airline to buy it secondly I already know through the grapevine that one employee left after the 1st week. There exact words I know it's going to be a success but theyve jumped ship to another airline. If you know its going to be a success why leave....is it because you have already seen the cracks???i

[Wycombe]

.is it because you have already seen the cracks???i.....or maybe just got a better offer?

[ATNotts]

Totslly agree with you......managed by people with different agenda's . Theyve messed around with folks lives once already and there doing it again with all this speculation firstly that cyras want to sell. In reality there is no need for another airline to buy it secondly I already know through the grapevine that one employee left after the 1st week. There exact words I know it's going to be a success but theyve jumped ship to another airline. If you know its going to be a success why leave....is it because you have already seen the cracks???i

Honestly, you've never had an instance of someone taking a job then not appearing on day 1, or leaving after 24 hours, or perhaps after a week or two??? I have seen all these a number of times in my working life, it isn't unusual and may or may not have anything to do with whether a business will succeed or fail.

I fully understand and sympathise with people who lost their jobs, or part of their pensions on the back of the demise of Flybe Mk.1 but it would be better if the analysis were less tabloid. Connecting the departure of one individual within a short space of time with the business failing verges on the sort of "click-bait" headlines that plague the Google News that I simply can't get off my phone (I probably could but I'm not that IT savvy!).

[bean]

Unfortunately it's Pprune vs Flybe. Hundreds of pages of drivel over many years. It's not going to stop. Too many people with agendas/blinkered opinions

[RogueOne]

Theyve messed around with folks lives once already and there doing it again

No they haven't and no they aren't. This is a totally different company, a totally different airline, with a wholly new management team!!! Again more ignorance and bias just because the name is the same. The name was bought. That's it.

New CEO, Board of Directors and one singular owner rather than 3 investors aiming to get their pound of flesh and also try to please shareholders.

I'm staggered how some can't get this through their thick heads. Perhaps it's jealousy, perhaps it's fear - because some of you work for the competition that are about to be beaten, or have been wronged by another airline that happened to share the same name 2 years ago.

[SWBKCB]

No they haven't and no they aren't. This is a totally different company, a totally different airline, with a wholly new management team!!! Again more ignorance and bias just because the name is the same. The name was bought. That's it.

Except they keep saying "we're back". Except it's been bought by the people who owned it last time. A totally different airline except for the name, colour and aircraft. If its that different why not come clean and re-brand?

It's different in that they couldn't keep the old AOC they tried so hard for and haven't paid their debts.

[Saabdriver1]

It's stretching credibility a little thinly to claim there is no connection when the sole shareholder today is one of the three who took over Flybe, secured its lendings against Flybe's assets and put itself in a "no lose" position when many others had no such choice or luxury. I don't believe there is anything thick-headed about people being clear on that count.

[Albert Hall]

Everything I'm hearing is that BHD will be the first base with operations of any scale, and there will be very little flying at BHX. They sound to be pretty much stuck with having to operate the Heathrow remedy slots or else they are lost. I don't know whether you could or should put those two things together, but even if BHD-LHR isn't on the cards then it'll be interesting to see how they fly the LHR slots without losing their shirts doing it.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

No they haven't and no they aren't. This is a totally different company, a totally different airline, with a wholly new management team!!! Again more ignorance and bias just because the name is the same. The name was bought. That's it.

New CEO, Board of Directors and one singular owner rather than 3 investors aiming to get their pound of flesh and also try to please shareholders.

I'm staggered how some can't get this through their thick heads. Perhaps it's jealousy, perhaps it's fear - because some of you work for the competition that are about to be eaten, or have been wronged by another airline that happened to share the same name 2 years ago.
This statement is contradicted by Zombie flybe who claim they're "back". Flybe themselves view this as a "relauch", they use the term "return". Having it both ways isn't a good start in terms of honesty and transparency. It's quite unpleasant to gloat that airlines which worked hard to survive COVID are going to get "eaten" by a firm who went bust and left a trail of debt in their wake. To say with a straight face this is a "totally different airline" is dishonesty IMHO.

[Citrine]

No they haven't and no they aren't. This is a totally different company, a totally different airline, with a wholly new management team!!! Again more ignorance and bias just because the name is the same. The name was bought. That's it.

New CEO, Board of Directors and one singular owner rather than 3 investors aiming to get their pound of flesh and also try to please shareholders.

I'm staggered how some can't get this through their thick heads. Perhaps it's jealousy, perhaps it's fear - because some of you work for the competition that are about to be eaten, or have been wronged by another airline that happened to share the same name 2 years ago.
I'm sure other airlines are absolutely petrified of flybe coming back😂😂 t

[jethro15]

1200 Posts and still going. I've seen many a thread being closed/locked for less.

[BA318]

Again.... it's a new company!!! Flybe1 went bust. This is not that company.

For the ignorant. Here's a link to it: https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/02769768

If Flybe2 was called Super Duper Airlines Ltd none of your cages would be rattling right now, but many here have got axes to grind, and soapboxes to stand on to make yourselves feel relevant. Maybe there should be a Flybe2 thread created for positive/relevant/constructive discussion?? Mods, Admins - can we do that?

Flybe2 might be saying it's a return, because that's all the normal flying public care about, a return to flying the routes they would have travelled on before. Not worrying about absolute flannels here keen to bash a new company, a new airline and those unfortunate enough to have lost their jobs last time out. Good luck to them. Aviation and tourism and hospitality has been dicked good and proper, why the constant naysaying?? Just be happy and let them get on with connecting people and bring about jobs.

In your earlier post you were talking about how Flybe is going to eat the competition so those jobs don’t matter? Effectively making Flybe’s jobs neutral and they will replace others.

It’s not just unreasoned bashing of Flybe2. The warning signs are being reported elsewhere - The Telegraph reporting the owners were already trying to flog it off shows how long their interest in it is. BALPA are complaining about the “unusually aggressive” terms crew were being made to sign.

[Winston Fumble]

Perhaps I’ve missed something, but with all the current recruitment going on for the refreshed Flybe, I’m amazed they haven’t announced a launch date with routes etc, so Joe Public can buy a ticket, that would at least create some cash flow - presumably, they must have deep pockets as their cash in the bank right now, is going only one way. I wish them luck.

[Saabdriver1]

It is indeed a new legal entity. But that is owned by a company which was the main shareholder in the previous company and which so far has been the main beneficiary of the payouts from the administrators. You can't escape that no matter how you try to dress that up. It is not for me to tell you what you should and shouldn't accept (and vice versa) but I'd be surprised if you can't see there are some very angry people out there about this. Those in the former BRAL pension scheme are firmly in that group. I can't see why you are so anxious to shout down their views.

[SWBKCB]

Again.... it's a new company!!! Flybe1 went bust. This is not that company.

For the ignorant. Here's a link to it: https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/02769768

If Flybe2 was called Super Duper Airlines Ltd none of your cages would be rattling right now, but many here have got axes to grind, and soapboxes to stand on to make yourselves feel relevant. Maybe there should be a Flybe2 thread created for positive/relevant/constructive discussion?? Mods, Admins - can we do that?

Flybe2 might be saying it's a return, because that's all the normal flying public care about, a return to flying the routes they would have travelled on before. Not worrying about absolute flannels here keen to bash a new company, a new airline and those unfortunate enough to have lost their jobs last time out. Good luck to them. Aviation and tourism and hospitality has been dicked good and proper, why the constant naysaying?? Just be happy and let them get on with connecting people and bring about jobs.

What's that saying? Oh yes "follow the money"...

[Citrine]

Does anybody know how unsubscribe from this forum please....thank you .

[Wallsendmag]

Again.... it's a new company!!! Flybe1 went bust. This is not that company.

For the ignorant. Here's a link to it: https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/02769768

If Flybe2 was called Super Duper Airlines Ltd none of your cages would be rattling right now, but many here have got axes to grind, and soapboxes to stand on to make yourselves feel relevant. Maybe there should be a Flybe2 thread created for positive/relevant/constructive discussion?? Mods, Admins - can we do that?

Flybe2 might be saying it's a return, because that's all the normal flying public care about, a return to flying the routes they would have travelled on before. Not worrying about absolute flannels here keen to bash a new company, a new airline and those unfortunate enough to have lost their jobs last time out. Good luck to them. Aviation and tourism and hospitality has been dicked good and proper, why the constant naysaying?? Just be happy and let them get on with connecting people and bring about jobs.
If it is a new company they've just performed a serious GDPR breech, I work for a Train Operating Company and at the end of one franchise we lost 90% of our customer database. Unless everyone contacted had ticked a box saying something along the lines of "yes please pass my details to a new company if you go to the wall", they'll have a problem.

[ATNotts]

If it is a new company they've just performed a serious GDPR breech, I work for a Train Operating Company and at the end of one franchise we lost 90% of our customer database. Unless everyone contacted had ticked a box saying something along the lines of "yes please pass my details to a new company if you go to the wall", they'll have a problem.

There is, as I see it, a fundamental difference here. If train operating company "A" comes to the end of their franchise, and a new company "B" becomes the new operating company the business hasn't been sold. In the case of Flybe the administrators of Flybe Mk.1 sold their business (they remain the operator of the failed business) to another company including (one assumes) the customer database. If the new company had unofficially "obtained" the customer database they would likely be on much thinner ice.

As it is Flybe appear to have contacted their subscribers on the database they have bought asking for their permission to send them information which seems more than reasonable to my (non legal) brain.

[wanna]

Its fair to say that regardless your view point it fairly complicated and not simply its a new company v its not a new company.

The bigger picture is where does Flybe Mk2 really fit into the domestic flying landscape? There focus seems to be (from staff recruitment) be BHD, but from press info BHX. BHX is currently well served for the climate and no one knows what's around the corner, will business travel pick up? BHD will be very well served by Emerald in the form of Aer Lingus Regional. IAG are working with the smaller regional carriers, BA increased codeshare with Loganair for instance. Blue Islands, Aurigny and Loganair all working together. No doubt they'll be pitching to Emerald also (maybe indicated by the work LM is doing with IAG). Not forgetting Eastern, its no secret their owner has deep deep pockets. All 5 current regional airlines are fairly well financed, pretty much independently or state owned and have always fared when interacting original flybe.

So where does that leave Flybe? If things return to Pre pandemic levels then maybe there is a need for a 6th regional airline. But what if they dont? How many people will actually want to travel for work as OFTEN as they did before? Maybe instead of weekly trips its bi weekly or even just monthly. In the meantime other airlines, notably easyjet have moved in to some of the markets and do offer a good product. Yes other reasons to travel will no doubt bounce back but is that enough to sustain 6 airlines? Theres a difference between connecting Islands and remote communities Vs flying from and to fairly well connected places. No question theres a need for NI, Scottish, Channel Island, Isle of Man, Ireland etc flights but internal England?

[bean]

It is indeed a new legal entity. But that is owned by a company which was the main shareholder in the previous company and which so far has been the main beneficiary of the payouts from the administrators. You can't escape that no matter how you try to dress that up. It is not for me to tell you what you should and shouldn't accept (and vice versa) but I'd be surprised if you can't see there are some very angry people out there about this. Those in the former BRAL pension scheme are firmly in that group. I can't see why you are so anxious to shout down their views.
Ignorant comment. The beneficiaries of any payout are the creditors. Cyrus had to write off their investment in Flybe as did Virgin

[bean]

In your earlier post you were talking about how Flybe is going to eat the competition so those jobs don’t matter? Effectively making Flybe’s jobs neutral and they will replace others.

It’s not just unreasoned bashing of Flybe2. The warning signs are being reported elsewhere - The Telegraph reporting the owners were already trying to flog it off shows how long their interest in it is. BALPA are complaining about the “unusually aggressive” terms crew were being made to sign.
Of course. Cyrus want to sell it off and realize their investment .
THEY ARE VENTURE CAPITALISTS

[oapilot]

Ignorant comment. The beneficiaries of any payout are the creditors. Cyrus had to write off their investment in Flybe as did Virgin

That doesn’t mean they won’t be looking to recoup that debt together with the cash they’re burning now and will burn buying market share.

Might explain the grossly inflated value touted in the Telegraph for a company with no trading history.

[bean]

That doesn’t mean they won’t be looking to recoup that debt together with the cash they’re burning now and will burn buying market share.

Might explain the grossly inflated value touted in the Telegraph for a company with no trading history.
Of course they want to make money. It's called capitalism!

[stewyb]

As yet there is no confirmation they will even make it into the skies!

[Jamie2009]

As yet there is no confirmation they will even make it into the skies!

I would expect that to change sometime soon.

The NDA thing is bollocks, single sentence in my contract about not releasing confidential info not already in the public domain. Hardly a watertight NDA and certainly nothing about discussing T&Cs - fairly standard employment contract content.

[BA318]

I would expect that to change sometime soon.

The NDA thing is bollocks, single sentence in my contract about not releasing confidential info not already in the public domain. Hardly a watertight NDA and certainly nothing about discussing T&Cs - fairly standard employment contract content.

So BALPA is lying?

[Jamie2009]

Who knows, I might be lying or they could be, they could be mistaken or I could be mistaken or both of us could be lying or mistaken... who knows.
Perhaps there are conspiracy theories regarding some of the stories that have appeared in the press about Flybe and its being briefed against. Who knows?

If you look at my previous posts I would suggest theres a good chance I am looking at my contract right now.

You'll just have to decide for yourself, either way it matters not.

[Saabdriver1]

Another possibility is that your contract is different to those of some others - we simply can't say. But if this is rubbish, there would be every reason for Flybe to say that it's complete rubbish, and then the bit in the paper probably wouldn't have even made it as far as being printed in the first place. I think it says that they declined to comment.

[ATNotts]

Another possibility is that your contract is different to those of some others - we simply can't say. But if this is rubbish, there would be every reason for Flybe to say that it's complete rubbish, and then the bit in the paper probably wouldn't have even made it as far as being printed in the first place. I think it says that they declined to comment.

Why they would have different contracts for different people in operational roles I simply don't understand. There would be different contracts for more senior people I suspect.

A more like scenario is that there are bitter people (plenty on here) who have got employment with Flybe and are now trying to cause trouble for their employer, though, to be honest, I fail to see why anyone would do that unless they had managed to find a better offer from elsewhere. Mischief making seems favourite.

[wanna]

Why they would have different contracts for different people in operational roles I simply don't understand. There would be different contracts for more senior people I suspect.

A more like scenario is that there are bitter people (plenty on here) who have got employment with Flybe and are now trying to cause trouble for their employer, though, to be honest, I fail to see why anyone would do that unless they had managed to find a better offer from elsewhere. Mischief making seems favourite.

Thing is though, whilst BALPA are many things to many people... why would they tarnish their reputation so easily / quickly if it wasn't true? Surely they have seen the contract? Hence why they're kicking off?

[SWBKCB]

What have Balpa actually said?

[ETOPS]

First Cabin crew just completed their course and there's a press call early next week.

[ATNotts]

First Cabin crew just completed their course and there's a press call early next week.

Dash 8 was training again today out of BHX, has been for the last few days after a break in activity.

Announcement next week will hopefully put to bed some of the rumours - and of course allow the armchair CEOs to explain why this, that or the other route won't or can't work and how Flybe will be gone by (date to be announced)!

[bean]

I Can't wait for the armchair ceos comments NOT

[bean]

First Cabin crew just completed their course and there's a press call early next week.
Good for Mrs Etops, seriously

[BA318]

Dash 8 was training again today out of BHX, has been for the last few days after a break in activity.

Announcement next week will hopefully put to bed some of the rumours - and of course allow the armchair CEOs to explain why this, that or the other route won't or can't work and how Flybe will be gone by (date to be announced)!

You know most people (even skeptics want them and all airlines to succeed). You can debate the viability of routes etc and the space in the market without needing to resort to name calling. Plenty of people on here work in business and have understanding about the market and the travel market.

[ATNotts]

BA318

I don't doubt that, but equally many seem not to understand how businesses generally work.

[Alteagod]

Just let them get on with it. The market will decide the future

[runway30]

BA318

I don't doubt that, but equally many seem not to understand how businesses generally work.
I have known quite a few airline CEOs, real ones not armchair and there are a few of them whose eyes glaze over at the mention of finance.

[ATNotts]

I have known quite a few airline CEOs, real ones not armchair and there are a few of them whose eyes glaze over at the mention of finance.
I seem to remember it being said some years ago that pilots shouldn't run airlines, but then there is a case for saying accountants shouldn't either!

[davidjohnson6]

First Cabin crew just completed their course and there's a press call early next week.

Did the press call take place ? If not, when is the new date for it ?

[Atlantic Explorer]

Did the press call take place ? If not, when is the new date for it ?

Well that’s the million dollar question! We keep being told by the (new) Flybe fans that everything will be revealed next week………but next week never seems to come.

Surely they can’t be planning a launch for S22, that window is quickly going as people are making plans now for summer. I wonder what their daily cash burn is right now with all the salaries outgoing with no income. Not insignificant I wouldn’t have thought.

[SKOJB]

Alternatively there won’t be much start up required if they are only going to be serving 2 or 3 routes initially!

[ATNotts]

Teams was probably down!!!

[ETOPS]

First Belfast crew have graduated and third ‘frame arrives shorty so I would expect some sort of publicity soon.

[Letsflycwl]

Be great to see Flybe back on the BHD-CWL route in the future !

[Sharklet7]

Is there a Flybe announcement to be made at Belfast City this week?

A return is what we all expect the question is when?

[Albert Hall]

I'm hearing that a Flybe announcement should be before month end but probably not this week - so that rather points towards Monday 28th! In the same snippet, I'd also heard there was some issue with the Heathrow slots but don't profess to know exactly what.

[RHagrid]

I'm hearing that a Flybe announcement should be before month end but probably not this week - so that rather points towards Monday 28th! In the same snippet, I'd also heard there was some issue with the Heathrow slots but don't profess to know exactly what.
And On and On it goes!
Could somebody please wake me up when something actually happens!!!

[OneBellEnd]

What’s not covered from Belfast now that a resurrection of BE could go after - Doncaster, Norwich? Or are they planning to bop up and slug it out toe to toe with the other regional airlines who are now operating these routes at BHD, two years after Flybe folded? If that’s the plan, hope the goldmine runs deep.

[Letsflycwl]

What’s not covered from Belfast now that a resurrection of BE could go after - Doncaster, Norwich? Or are they planning to bop up and slug it out toe to toe with the other regional airlines who are now operating these routes at BHD, two years after Flybe folded? If that’s the plan, hope the goldmine runs deep.

Don’t forget Cardiff

[OzzyOzBorn]

It may not be that simple. Over the weekend, I looked to book a BHD-MAN sector for mid-April, only to find that no carrier has flights on sale. The Aer Lingus A320 is gone ... presumably back to Dublin. But the replacement Emerald AT76 services are not yet loaded for bookings. It is possible that FlyBe 2.0 could launch flights from BHD before Emerald does. They're both new operations. I'm not predicting which will enter the market first, just pointing out that neither are on sale yet - so FlyBe could still be the one with first-mover advantage on some former Aer Lingus routes if they launch before Emerald do.

Of course, I acknowledge that EasyJet operate BFS-MAN throughout. But those routes operated by the Aer Lingus A320 from BHD may be left temporarily vacant.

[mart901]

It may not be that simple. Over the weekend, I looked to book a BHD-MAN sector for mid-April, only to find that no carrier has flights on sale. The Aer Lingus A320 is gone ... presumably back to Dublin. But the replacement Emerald AT76 services are not yet loaded for bookings. It is possible that FlyBe 2.0 could launch flights from BHD before Emerald does. They're both new operations. I'm not predicting which will enter the market first, just pointing out that neither are on sale yet - so FlyBe could still be the one with first-mover advantage on some former Aer Lingus routes if they launch before Emerald do.

Of course, I acknowledge that EasyJet operate BFS-MAN throughout. But those routes operated by the Aer Lingus A320 from BHD may be left temporarily vacant.


If EIR do take up every route they've announced they will then there won't be any gap in service it will go from from one to the other carrier and I've even seen it suggested they'd use damp leasing of BA cityflyer a/c if needed.

I'd virtually bet on the fact the reason they've not announced yet is it's a game of cat and mouse and strongly suspect they'll not go head to head on any route. EZY were already doing BFS-MAN Ozzy before BE went bust, definitely room for two carriers in the market - not sure three would work for long. Also if BE launched BHD-MAN and BHX as is being suggested that's basically the two aircraft they have spoken for, it would need a minimum of three daily rotations to give them any sort of commercial edge.

[BACsuperVC10]

They might offer BHD-LPL. Its unserved and the BFS-LPL route is a very busy one, so they could see an opportunity there.

[Wycombe]

that's basically the two aircraft they have spoken for

3rd aircraft acquired apparently (JECP) according to Jethro's

[DRAGON RAPIDE]

EMA would be a good choice. Flybe use to have 3 or 4 rotations a day and always busy. Currently only served from International by Easy 4 times a week and nothing currently scheduled beyond end of March.

[ATNotts]

EMA would be a good choice. Flybe use to have 3 or 4 rotations a day and always busy. Currently only served from International by Easy 4 times a week and nothing currently scheduled beyond end of March.

I think you're right there. Even though business travel may never return to pre-pandemic levels there must surely be a demand for 2 x daily M-F morning and evening service between Belfast and EMA to serve what remaining business travel demand there is. You could say the same for LBA and CWL. BHX and MAN may be less certain, depends a lot on how quickly Emerald get their act together (and indeed how long it takes Flybe to do likewise!).

I suspect that if Flybe are to commence at the season changeover at the end of March they'll need to have their hands on at least 5 Dash 8s by then, but time alone will tell.

[OzzyOzBorn]

mart901 - Which bit of my post led you to believe that I was unaware of EasyJet's history on BFS-MAN? I even referred to them. Please don't be condescending like that. Most people using this forum are or have been in the industry and are well aware of the basics. In my case, I've been using (and working with) flights between Belfast and MAN for years.

The point I made was that after Aer Lingus A320 service is withdrawn towards the end of March, nothing is on sale on BHD-MAN. Not Emerald, not FlyBe 2.0, not BA Cityflyer. None of them. So, as I said, FlyBe 2.0 does still have the opportunity to be first mover as the route resumes. Meanwhile, if any of them want some actual bookings (the important bit) they need to open their planned services for reservations. They won't be getting my mid-April booking anyway. I've made other arrangements. April travellers are making their plans now. If any carrier plans to serve the route by then (and perhaps they don't intend to), then they need to be accepting bookings already. They're probably best advised to hold off until at least May at this point.

[AirportPlanner1]

Any thoughts on Southend being a base, or destination? Whilst always wise to take corporate statements with a pinch of salt, SEN are recruiting ahead of a “busy summer season”. The current schedule is 13 weekly passenger flights and a nightly freighter…

[TimmyW]

Hoping for something at Doncaster, however unlikely it is. It must be the only airport that didn't have any of the lost FlyBe routes replaced.

[ATNotts]

Unless Flybe 2.0 want to make the same mistakes as version 1 they'll be steering clear of 3rd rank airports such as Southend and Doncaster until they are properly established. It's going to be tough for them and there will be little point in casting the net(work) too wide to begin with. The "scattergun" approach rarely works.

[mart901]

mart901 - Which bit of my post led you to believe that I was unaware of EasyJet's history on BFS-MAN? I even referred to them. Please don't be condescending like that. Most people using this forum are or have been in the industry and are well aware of the basics. In my case, I've been using (and working with) flights between Belfast and MAN for years.

The point I made was that after Aer Lingus A320 service is withdrawn towards the end of March, nothing is on sale on BHD-MAN. Not Emerald, not FlyBe 2.0, not BA Cityflyer. None of them. So, as I said, FlyBe 2.0 does still have the opportunity to be first mover as the route resumes. Meanwhile, if any of them want some actual bookings (the important bit) they need to open their planned services for reservations. They won't be getting my mid-April booking anyway. I've made other arrangements. April travellers are making their plans now. If any carrier plans to serve the route by then (and perhaps they don't intend to), then they need to be accepting bookings already. They're probably best advised to hold off until at least May at this point.

Not being condescending at all, the word 'throughout' wasn't there when you posted it first, hence I stated they were there before. If you knew they were whey before why mention it, it would have no relevance!

[Jenny Tails]

Routes
BHX-JER
BHX-BHD
BHD-CWL
BHD-NCL
BHD-LPL

[biddedout]

Don't Emerald (UK) have to get a UK AOC before they can start out of BHD?

[BristolexFlyer]

Hoping for something at Doncaster, however unlikely it is. It must be the only airport that didn't have any of the lost FlyBe routes replaced.

There’s a reason for that. They should steer well clear of DSA.

Regards

BristolexFlyer

[mart901]

Routes
BHX-JER
BHX-BHD
BHD-CWL
BHD-NCL
BHD-LPL

That official?

[TimmyW]

There’s a reason for that. They should steer well clear of DSA.

Regards

BristolexFlyer

Why's that?

[BristolexFlyer]

Why's that?

Pretty simple. The routes were loss making, and therefore unviable. Economics.

Regards

BristolexFlyer

[AndrewH52]

Pretty simple. The routes were loss making, and therefore unviable. Economics.

Regards

BristolexFlyer

You could argue that about most Flybe 1.0 routes otherwise they probably wouldn’t have gone bust.

[BristolexFlyer]

You could argue that about most Flybe 1.0 routes otherwise they probably wouldn’t have gone bust.

Absolutely, I agree. Many of theirs routes were undoubtedly marginal at best, and we know some of their issues were larger organisational ones. In the example of DSA, regional routes have been tried by an array of airlines, Aer Lingus, Flybe, easyJet and Wizz have all failed. Tui and Wizz have found their markets at DSA, but it doesn’t seem like DSA can make regional/business routes work. It’s as plain as day.

Regards

BristolexFlyer

[toledoashley]

Maybe, but... Flybe Mk1 had an aircraft order it didn't need or could afford, aircraft on leases that were too expensive and a mountain of debt. A clean slate, with proper management it could be very possible those which were either marginal or loss-making, may turn a profit with leaner costs.

[ATNotts]

Still nothing on the media or on the Flybe website. Has Jenny got inside information or is she (?) guessing?

[davidjohnson6]

Jenny Tails' record of past posts suggests credibility. It would not surprise me in the least if information is beginning to leak out by virtue of somebody being a bit loose tongued in the pub after work

[OzzyOzBorn]

Not being condescending at all, the word 'throughout' wasn't there when you posted it first, hence I stated they were there before. If you knew they were whey before why mention it, it would have no relevance!

Actually, it was. If I'd changed it, you would see the word "Edited" underneath alongside the time of alteration. I suggest you stop digging now.

[southamptonavgeek]

Has Jenny got inside information or is she (?) guessing?

They certainly seem plausible, but of course that doesn't make them true.

[Mr A Tis]

It may not be that simple. Over the weekend, I looked to book a BHD-MAN sector for mid-April, only to find that no carrier has flights on sale. The Aer Lingus A320 is gone ... presumably back to Dublin. But the replacement Emerald AT76 services are not yet loaded for bookings. It is possible that FlyBe 2.0 could launch flights from BHD before Emerald does. They're both new operations. I'm not predicting which will enter the market first, just pointing out that neither are on sale yet - so FlyBe could still be the one with first-mover advantage on some former Aer Lingus routes if they launch before Emerald do.

Of course, I acknowledge that EasyJet operate BFS-MAN throughout. But those routes operated by the Aer Lingus A320 from BHD may be left temporarily vacant.

I'm in the same boat as Ozzy, wanting to book MAN-BHD early April & there is nothing. Only easyJet to Aldergrove, which is not really what I want.
I'm surprised Aer Lingus are not continuing the booking process. I wouldn't hold my breath on Flybe2. Whoever might be operating BHD-MAN in April, might it not be a good idea to open up bookings now?

[mart901]

I'm in the same boat as Ozzy, wanting to book MAN-BHD early April & there is nothing. Only easyJet to Aldergrove, which is not really what I want.
I'm surprised Aer Lingus are not continuing the booking process. I wouldn't hold my breath on Flybe2. Whoever might be operating BHD-MAN in April, might it not be a good idea to open up bookings now?

I'd say EIR will announce soon. Granted they've been awaiting UK license but in reality there's unlikely to be too many hurdles to that, I'd put it more to them sitting waiting on BE to see what they will have to compete on.
If those routes are correct BE are going for BHD routes where EIR haven't announced, excluding BHX which is basically the new BE's base and could be scrapped over but more likely will be just one or the other carrier.

​I'm waiting on BHD-BHX myself and agree the EZY offering isn't what I want every time either.

[Jamie2009]

I'd say EIR will announce soon. Granted they've been awaiting UK license but in reality there's unlikely to be too many hurdles to that, I'd put it more to them sitting waiting on BE to see what they will have to compete on.
If those routes are correct BE are going for BHD routes where EIR haven't announced, excluding BHX which is basically the new BE's base and could be scrapped over but more likely will be just one or the other carrier.

​I'm waiting on BHD-BHX myself and agree the EZY offering isn't what I want every time either.

Aprils still a while away - why not give it just a bit longer and then look at your options🤷‍♂️

[SWBKCB]

Aprils still a while away - why not give it just a bit longer and then look at your options🤷‍♂️

Why not announce what you are going to do? What's the hold-up?

What's the betting that when they do say something the strapline will be something about 'the passenger being at the centre of everything we do'? :rolleyes:

[BA318]

Aprils still a while away - why not give it just a bit longer and then look at your options🤷‍♂️

It’s five weeks away. People have other things to book as well usually. And then if they have left it too late and no flight shows up they are left paying higher last minute prices.

When they report Q2 loses the same people will be using the excuse of how flights went on sale late and therefore they didn’t get a fair shot at summer 22.

[Albert Hall]

It sounds like next Monday will be a fine day for playing airline "bulls**t bingo".

From what I'm told, there are several other routes to be added to this. BHX-JER is a Saturday only service through the summer. BHD-MAN and SOU-MAN are also on the cards and the latter suggests a SOU base.

[TartinTon]

I suspect aircraft and deliveries may be an issue. Given the history that they had with some very late deliveries before I see no reason why that might not be the case again with the hulls having been sat around for some time.

[AirportPlanner1]

Why not announce what you are going to do? What's the hold-up

Whether by accident or design I can’t say but they’ll want to be towards the top of the news cycle. There hasn’t been much room over the last few weeks because of Partygate, Ukraine, ‘Freedom Day’ etc. I know this because of something I’m involved in. Not that Monday will necessarily be any better, but you have to go eventually.

A short lead-in shouldn’t be an issue. Ryanair have announced new routes for 5 weeks time.

[BA318]

Whether by accident or design I can’t say but they’ll want to be towards the top of the news cycle. There hasn’t been much room over the last few weeks because of Partygate, Ukraine, ‘Freedom Day’ etc. I know this because of something I’m involved in. Not that Monday will necessarily be any better, but you have to go eventually.

A short lead-in shouldn’t be an issue. Ryanair have announced new routes for 5 weeks time.

Ryanair have an established marketing machine, huge funds to bankroll any loses and can offer very cheap lead in fares. Does Flybe2 have any of that?

[SWBKCB]

Sorry but that sounds like b*llocks - do BE really think they are going to top of the news cycle, even on a quiet day? The percentage of the public that will be flying with them is tiny, but they need to be engaging with those potential passengers and not alienating them

[Atlantic Explorer]

Sorry but that sounds like b*llocks - do BE really think they are going to top of the news cycle, even on a quiet day? The percentage of the public that will be flying with them is tiny, but they need to be engaging with those potential passengers and not alienating them

Agreed! Just more waffling and hot air from the BE camp.

[Jamie2009]

It’s five weeks away. People have other things to book as well usually. And then if they have left it too late and no flight shows up they are left paying higher last minute prices.

When they report Q2 loses the same people will be using the excuse of how flights went on sale late and therefore they didn’t get a fair shot at summer 22.

I couldn’t agree more buddy. Don’t waste your time Flybe bashing on here - get on the blower to your IAG mates and get them to sort it out.

[Jamie2009]

Ryanair have an established marketing machine, huge funds to bankroll any loses and can offer very cheap lead in fares. Does Flybe2 have any of that?

Just like IAG👍