Flybe-V1

[Snr]

"On the evening of 3 March 2020, the directors of Flybe were informed by Virgin that, as a result of the adverse impact of COVID-19 coronavirus on its own bookings, it was no longer able to provide further funding to Connect or Flybe."

Thank you to Sandy78 for pointing out the document. I stand by my original comment. 24 hours prior to the collapse, Virgin pulled out of providing any additional funding, which had been agreed back in January. There were many reasons Flybe/Connect failed, but the final nail in the coffin was Virgin (rightly) choosing mainline over the "subsidiary".

[davidjpowell]

This thread is confusing. I think it would not be wrong to say Flybe was not in a good state in December. It had hope from the new ownership structure, but it was not out of the woods.

Covid then came along and I do recall press releases about booking falling off a cliff. On top of that the new owners bookings were presumably seeing a similar pattern and it would have been only a matter of time before they had to prioritise funding their mainline airline survival.

Whether it was Virgin or one of the other investors it was going to happen. The investors did not put the final nail in the coffin. Covid did.

[robby239]

what will happen to the former Flybe MPL cadets?

[Jamesair1]

Not only caused by Covid, as soon as the general public gets a hint of an airline in trouble (and their money being lost), the speculation rapidly turns into a fact with forward bookings grinding to a shuddering halt.

[fjencl]

Flybe's return to the skies moves a step closer
Cyrus Capital applies for operating licence for the airline and pledges to 'restore essential regional connectivity

[Flitefone]

...and a step further away perhaps with the BACF announcement today re Southampton routes..

[cavokblues]

I'm not sure - BACF's announcement is very much just a weekend summer operation only. I, personally, would be surprised if Flybe is back in the skies by when the flights end next October....! Never say never...

[HH6702]

maybe as Cyrus now owns the name they have requested the change before they relaunch

[shamrock7seal]

So debts or liabilities basically total GBP427m

How on earth is this going to work?

[JobsaGoodun]

If I'm not mistaken, the debts remain with the original business and therefore probably aren't picked up by the new company, Thyme OpCo.

[biddedout]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-10693875
This damage. I remember him boasting about the 5Bn bit. Shortly after that he invited Digby Jones onto the board. :rolleyes:

[AirportPlanner1]

£65 EXT-LCY doesn’t sound too bad at all to me, given it was up against the peak train it should actually have been more. £30 is unrealistic and EZY on a route like that is fantasy. Perhaps a good assessment then of the overall faults.

[fjencl]

Are we likely to see this year 2021 the opening up of flybe2 .......

[cavokblues]

Flybe should have scaled back and offloaded the E195s faster

To be fair I think they tried everything to rid themselves of those aircraft but they were tied in to those contracts and concluded it was better to fly them and at least try and make some money for them, rather than having them sat on the ground.

Like every airline failure the company had bad decision compounded by bad decision over several years. They just had too many aircraft and no control over the size of their fleet.

[virginblue]

Flybe should have really taken some inspiration from Porter Airlines who seem to have a fairly strong business. Instead they tried to be a business airline, ski airline, a charter airline and a tourist airline along with a low cost airline to match Easyjet/Ryanair

Porter has also expandend into leisure/ski/tourist markets - I am not really sure this really is the difference between the two.

[cavokblues]

I think Flybe did, to a degree, have a similar strategy to Porter with their operations out of City airport, where did they quite well.

They were obviously a much larger airline than Porter. Their problem was a lot of their trunk routes elsewhere didn't make much money. And if they did they were always in danger of a easyJet or Ryanair coming along, with a much lower cost base, and stealing their market.

With the right fleet selection, and free or ridiculous lease agreements, there probably is a bit of money to be made replicating a bit of Flybe's old route network. It's just never going to be a huge money spinner IMO.

[BA318]

virginblue

Porter are more like BA Cityflyer. They seem to target slightly higher end tourist markets in the downtime on their business routes and they offer an onboard service and a more premium approach.

FlyBe on the other hand tried to be everything to everyone - a business airline, a cheap airline, a holiday airline and obviously failed at that. I still think FlyBe missed so many opportunities. It started flying from LCY and went up against BA on the routes rather than operating other routes - there is a gap for services to smaller Scandinavian cities, French towns for second home owners (similar to where they flew from SOU).

[Albert Hall]

I think Flybe did, to a degree, have a similar strategy to Porter with their operations out of City airport, where did they quite well

Flybe's operations at LCY, and the LHR services, were an utter calamity. I am not sure where you get the idea that they "did quite well" but they did not. BHD was the only route at LCY which was any good and that only did OK because of an overall deal on airport charges that forced Flybe to fly lots of other LCY routes to generate volume. The rest and particularly EDI-LCY were complete basketcases. If Flybe 2 want to replicate Flybe 1, I hope they have deep pockets.

[ATNotts]

But FlyBe were never set up as a low cost airline, the routes they appear to have done best on were those where they weren't competing with a low cost carrier, or were in code share agreements with.

[cavokblues]

Flybe's operations at LCY, and the LHR services, were an utter calamity. I am not sure where you get the idea that they "did quite well" but they did not.

Fair point, mine was purely anecdotal and I assumed because the Edinburgh, Exeter, Amsterdam routes had been there for 6 years or so they must have been making some money on them, but not sure that's even true with Flybe. I recall reading something that when Saad came in 59% of their routes were loss making!

[AirportPlanner1]

Was EDI-LCY a basket case? That’s the one I took a few times and always seemed to do well for loads and as an outsider I’d have said fares weren’t too low either. I’ve seen it said a lot that BHD-LCY was a real winner.

The logic and strategy of the LCY network at the start seemed sound but clearly some routes didn’t work at all - some a surprise, some less so - and some were trimmed.

But the whole London strategy quickly became muddled and the LCY network itself represented a u-turn. They had quit the London market having sold the LGW slots and were focusing on the regions. Fine. But then they ended up being pressured/paid(?) to keep the NQY-LGW route. And then largely reinstating the old LGW network into LCY. And then added a couple of routes into STN which didn’t last long including a bizarrely timed double-daily to NCL where both flight were off-peak. And they had the Stobart franchise operation in their name at SEN, plus a short-lived DUB route that was operated directly outside the franchise. And Loganair into STN which was also a franchise.

So from a long-standing LGW operation they quickly went to dribs and drabs at multiple airports.

[allan1987]

I thought the BHD and EDI to LCY went quite well, also since also with using Stobart Air's E190 on both routes

[TartinTon]

AMS was the only route that made any money ex-LCY (and not very much at that)...not conjecture...fact.

[CWL757]

11 ex Flybe Q400s going over to be tankers in Canada.
https://fireaviation.com/2021/01/14/conair-to-replace-all-of-their-l-188-and-cv-580-air-tankers-with-q400s/

[biddedout]

That will be a really good use for them. The huge amount of extra power will be very comforting for firefighting pilots operating very low level.

[SKOJB]

CWL757

Rather appropriate you might say as BE had been fire fighting for several years!

[CWL757]

Oooh that's quite a burn.

Sorry ill see myself out 😁

[CabinCrewe]

cant believe this thread still going. BE is gone and never to be seen again in any shape or form!

[ETOPS]

I would'nt be that sure ;)

[Albert Hall]

Exactly. That's what should happen - as the more you hear of the restart plans the more crazy it sounds - but it may well turn out not to be that way.

[jmccrew]

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1187x232/9cc540ca_71a1_4795_9e5c_74022d9f8598_70b8b29007a9709feb72fa9 983f5f0fa6acfa619.jpeg

[allan1987]

G-CLXC DHC-8-400 has been registered to THYME OPCO

[Expressflight]

…... and the nature of business as stated by Thyme Opco in its Companies House registration is Scheduled Passenger Air Transport.

[southside bobby]

......and this particular airframe indeed never operated by the old Flybe.

[Expressflight]

One of the Directors of Thyme Opco is also a Director of Cyrus Capital, owners of the defunct Flybe so I would conjecture that a rebirth is a step closer. The other Director has been an adviser and spokesman for Cyrus on Flybe matters.

Dash 8 G-CLXC is ex OE-LGA of Austrian Airlines.

[SWBKCB]

southside bobby

Avoids any possible unpleasantness with creditors if it gets into operation?.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

Might be best to start a new thread for the "rebirth"? It's unlikely to be called flybe after all and this feels a tad like dancing on the grave of an old friend.

If someone else wants to fly a 20 year old Q400 on flybe's old routes then fair play but perhaps let's leave the old Jersey European company to rest in peace. No one looks at an Eastern B767 today and says "Oh I remember when they flew TriStars out of Miami

[DC3 Dave]

Skipness One Foxtrot

Then why buy the Flybe brand and website?

[southside bobby]

So who owns all the flight & revenue data?...perhaps the main reason for the asset purchase.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

DC3 Dave

Because they're clowns with money to burn? The brand was beyond redemption years ago, in the public's mind, flybe is a now bankrupt airline that flew old propellor planes and was frequently unreliable. They spent money on buying THAT? This whole idea is a crackpot delusion that would be a very bad idea even in a good year.

Aviation is legendary for parting otherwise sensible investors from their money, it screws with good judgement as the part of your brain that deals with religion, faith, loyalty, belief, purpose and even rising from the dead gets involved.

They don't deserve a second chance, certainly not one where their original creditors remain overwhelmingly unpaid. By all means start something new, but I have a problem with resurrecting failed airlines from the dead.

[biddedout]

Or maybe they are very smart. Buying an airline in a box with a portfolio of slots, licenses in place, no debts, a customer data base, minimal cash burn their choice of launch timing and very cheap aircraft leasing options. We will just have to see.

[fjencl]

So to quote jethros web site info, Type 'A' AOC licence applied for 01 Dec 20
Yesterday we read that they have now registered 1 Dash8

How long does it take for them to get the Type A AOC Licence.

[RVF750]

I suspect they're not in any rush at present. What they do have though is a nearby Flight Training organisation and hundreds of unemployed ex Flybe crew all revalidated and checked out in Q400 simulators throughout this Winter. That's one of the major hurdles and costs associated with a startup jumped cleanly already!

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

Would a new flybe inherit existing marketing opt-ins to the old flybe's customer database under GDPR?

[cavokblues]

If it's the same legal entity I guess TUPE would apply to the rehiring of flight crew and any other previous employees?

I'm intrigued to see what their intentions are. Where they think there is money to be made from the old airline. I would have thought any of the routes which made money would now have new operators?

[davidjohnson6]

Purchasing the same legal entity is usually a big NO since it tends to include all the old unpaid debts. One tends to buy certain assets (eg the software to run the website or specific airport slots) of the old failed company instead, but leave the old legal entity well alone

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

So any data on customers they may have is for analysis only and pre COVID and dated? They cannot direct market to anyone via email or DM?

[captain g l walker]

biddedout

Perhaps also add years of losses to write future profits off against?

[JobsaGoodun]

Not if the new owners set up a new legal entity as has been mentioned. Thyme OpCo haven’t agreed to buy the business of Flybe Ltd, they’ve bought certain Flybe assets from the administrators of Flybe Ltd.

[JSCL]

Let's not forget that Cyrus and Virgin are two of Flybes biggest secured creditors. Its likely they will see some of their expense back through the administration process or even write some off rather than pay.

[Albert Hall]

Chatting away to a few people in recent days, a couple in fairly high-up places, and they had some very interesting views of Flybe 2.

It is exactly as JSCL suggests in terms of Cyrus trying to get some of their losses back through the administration process, getting their mitts on those slots which are worth something. There's apparently still a legal battle going on about the Heathrow slots etc etc and Cyrus took security over the slots in return for some of the loans it advanced to Flybe 1.

It sounds like this could be an elaborate deception. To get the slots from Flybe 1, Flybe 2 has to have its licences in place. It doesn't want to buy Flybe 1 for all of the reasons above, but has to have an aircraft to do a proving flight, be awarded its AOC and then receive its Operating Licence. The ageing Austrian Q400 is the cheapest way of doing that and it sounds like hardly any of the other leasing companies will deal with them as none believe the plan is credible (and they might be right!). Get the licences, transfer the slots, sell them and pack up after never carrying a passenger. Solves the problem of branding for sure.

They must have had to put a business plan forward to the CAA and I wouldn't suspect that plan says this. But this is increasingly the suspicion across the industry judging by what I'm hearing.

[allan1987]

Cyrus is never going to hold on to flybe long term. When time is right sell, they will flybe on to make back money from investment

[adfly]

This is very interesting. I did think it was fishy when I found that Q400 they had registered is older than any of the Flybe ones were.

I hope if we do see Flybe 2.0 they have learnt from some of their rivalry behaviours - taking the Ryanair approach dumping capacity onto competitors routes and dropping it after having forced said competitor off the route. The loganair/eastern highland debacle is probably the most prominent example of this, and they quite clearly never had the financial strength that Ryanair or similar do.

[Curious Pax]

RVF750

If I read this right, they have incurred a lot of costs in revalidating a lot of crews. However how would this square with Albert Hall’s suggestion that the resurrection is merely a smokescreen to make some money for selling Heathrow slots? Training up half a dozen crews at most for a single Dash maybe, for appearances sake, but hundreds?

[toledoashley]

Its certainly a plan, but surely the value of slots at Heathrow has dropped over the last few months?

[Alteagod]

No matter what the rationale behind this is, they will have a massive PR job to get Joe Public back on board and probably airports and service providers as well. Flybe left a bitter taste in a lot of people's mouth so it will be interesting to see what operational model they follow and as stated previously, will they have learnt anything from there past.

[DC3 Dave]

Why do they need a massive PR exercise to get Joe Public on board? Does Ryanair have this backing? IMO it’s all about offering flights to destinations enough people want to go to at a reasonable price.

As for those who have lost out from Flybe’s demise, they know full well they are dealing with a totally different business and will be happy to deal with them subject to the usual checks and risk assessment.

[Albert Hall]

DC3 Dave, as I see it, the last year or two of Flybe saw a huge decline in the airline's standing with its regular flyers. Reliability was never brilliant but was then compounded by the pilot leave fiasco leading to mass flight cancellations. On the flights that did operate, Flybe set about trying to utterly p**s off passengers by zealous enforcement of a hand baggage policy that left many avoiding the airline on that basis alone. When they did fly, the Q400s were increasingly poor inside and that did not fill you with confidence about everything else.

Yes, Ryanair have similar baggage policies but at least they have been very consistent - you know what you're signing up to. With Flybe you just did not know if you'd be cancelled, delayed, or randomly raped and pillaged at the gate if your hand baggage was deemed fractionally too big according to baggage sizers and ground staff which seemed to vary by airport. Even if you made it through that obstacle course then you boarded a Q400, invariably got seat-moved as the aircraft was "trim sensitive" - whatever that means to the average punter - and subjected to a filthy, dog-eared and tatty cabin.

Through no fault of those on the front line, it turned into a shambles of an airline which you couldn't depend on to turn up on time or avoid a sense of trepidation every time you set out to fly with them. It needed a change of brand to shed itself of this image. It says it all that a certain CEO offhandedly waved away the cabin crew when she was politely asked on a Q400 one day to remove her iPhone headphones for the safety demonstration.

And someone somewhere thinks it's a good idea to put all this back in the sky under the same damaged brand as before. It would probably be an easier sell to put a branch of Ratners back on every high street.

I'm sure others have equally strong and possibly opposing views. But for me the "essential regional connectivity" that Flybe offered is now provided by others where it's truly needed, and the rest of this sorry mess is best left to an airline history book still to be written.

[cavokblues]

A little bit here about the rumoured legal bid over the LHR slots

https://londonairtravel.com/2020/09/04/bmi-heathrow-remedy-slots-subject-to-legal-challenge/

[willy wombat]

I’m a bit confused by some of these theories because surely the LHR slots Flybe used were remedy slots and these can’t be sold.

[Albert Hall]

I thought so too but apparently these Cyrus people have a legal case that the slots can be possessed and sold. I'm sure that they would say that though! Probably worth chucking a few hundred grand at legal fees to give it a try, if you put yourself in their position. It was described to me as pretty desperate but when the possible jackpot outweighs the losses to such an extent then you'd stay at the gambling table for a bit longer to see if your luck improves, I suppose.

[Jamie2009]

G-CLMT looks like Dash No2..... expect more.

Flybe 2 hasn’t paid for anybody revaluation, the individuals did or with help from the job centre. Flybe 1 may have paid for the retained staff. More staff are being added to get this up and running.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

​​​​Sorry what? You say the Job Centre is doing what now?

[Jamie2009]

Job centres have a pot of cash they can use to help people back into work by doing courses etc. They have funded some people’s Dash revaluations.

[ETOPS]

the same damaged brand as before.

Who says that is the case?

Take a look at an existing UK operator Eastern Airways. Its not obvious from their branding that the AOC is actually in the name of my old air-taxi job Air Kilroe Ltd. Thus even if former FlyBe assests are used in some way there will be a new name to splash with publicity.

In fact how about a guessing game to take up a few minutes of lockdown? Any ideas..........

[Jn14:6]

2B or not 2B

[JobsaGoodun]

Jamie2009

I'm not sure that there's any evidence to suggest this. OE-LGC was re-registered to G-CLMT in May of last year when ownership moved from Austrian to EIC Aircraft Leasing.
Looks like the aircraft has been in storage since.

[Gurnard]

Clarification:
G-CLMT is ex OE-LGC. Different frame from G-CLXC which is ex OE-LGA.

[allan1987]

https://www.flickr.com/photos/20998733@N04/50810813556/

G-CLMT Inside Exter Hanger

photo courtesy of shamu28, Flickr

[stewyb]

What fleet size do we think for any reincarnation?

[fjencl]

i guess 5 - 8 aircraft to begin with .......

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

Job centres have a pot of cash they can use to help people back into work by doing courses etc. They have funded some people’s Dash revaluations.
How much money are we talking? And by revaluations I guess you mean sim hours to remain current?

Who says that is the case?
Take a look at an existing UK operator Eastern Airways. Its not obvious from their branding that the AOC is actually in the name of my old air-taxi job Air Kilroe Ltd. Thus even if former FlyBe assests are used in some way there will be a new name to splash with publicity.
In fact how about a guessing game to take up a few minutes of lockdown? Any ideas..........
OKAY this where I can see something possible, a new airline on some of the old flybe network relaunched from the ashes. But to be super clear :
1) Don't call it flybe - the branding is tainted with actual bankruptcy (bad) and unreliability (much worse) . Yes it is, let's not deny it. Call it something else.
2) One of the problems with the now bankrupt flybe was operating old Q400s in a market that was better suited capacity wise to an ATR or a jet for speed. Flying even older Q400s doesn't address this. They're looking to make the same mistake again. Actually in that case they should call it flybe

[Jersey32D]

allan1987

That's not G-CLXC.... it's OE-LGC (G-CLMT) being broken for spares (photo courtesy of shamu28, Flickr...)

[RVF750]

Skipness One Foxtrot

I beg to differ on point 2. The Q400 was neither expensive or unreliable. The problems were over priced leases through other Walker Trust companies, on both Dashes and particularly the Emb175s. the fact they laid off so many line engineers and made preventative maintenance a third party cost in the process and any aircraft if not looked after will become unreliable. When they are the Q400 flies 10 sectors a day so will cycle quickly and will always appear to break more often compared to aircraft that fly 4 sectors.

[ETOPS]

New owners granted a UK AOC - will be interesting to see the name on the cert.

[Jamie2009]

how do you know?

[Albert Hall]

I think that might be fake news (are we still allowed to use that expression in a post-Trump era?) but do not know for sure. The new operator has an aircraft registered to it, but it would be very surprising to see a Type A AOC granted when the only aircraft is in a hangar in Zagreb. That would be breaking new ground indeed.

[willy wombat]

Unless the rules have changed off late, you have to conduct a proving flight to be granted an AoC.

[dc9-32]

The proving flight does not have to be carried out in the actual aircraft the airline will use in service. A dry leased example is adequate. The CAA is looking at operational competency, not the aircraft itself.

[willy wombat]

Agreed but has it been carried out?

[gkmeech]

I suspect they have leased the cheapest aircraft they have found, run a few proving flights to get the AOC to release the slots, sell the slots, close the ‘airline’. Hopefully I am not being too cynical.

[SWBKCB]

Is there a market for slots at the moment?

[willy wombat]

I would have thought that given how avidly the progress of Flybe 2 is followed on pprune that any AOC proving flight would have been commented on here.

[compton3bravo]

In my humble opinion anybody thinking of investing in this operation wants there head testing.

[cavokblues]

gkmeech

Well, all they have to do first is (aledjelly (sic)) win a court case against IAG to prove they own the slots and then try to flog them in a market where, thanks to CV19, there is probably not much demand for the next year or so.

As business plans go it doesn't seem a huge winner. But maybe a gamble worth taking considering the potential rewards?

[biddedout]

Or maybe they just want to start up an airline based on the best of what Flybe had and using the slot portfolio.

[Downwind_Left]

cavokblues

But the basis that the slots were granted is quite clear;

1.1.3. Grandfathering rights

644. As a general rule, the slots obtained by a prospective entrant must be operated on the city pair(s) for which they have been requested from IAG and cannot be used on another city pair unless the prospective entrant has operated them during at least six full consecutive IATA seasons ("the Utilisation Period").272 The prospective entrant would be deemed to have grandfathering rights for the slots once appropriate use of the slots has been made on the city pairs at issue, for the Utilisation Period. Once the Utilisation Period has elapsed, the prospective entrant would be entitled to use the slots obtained on the basis of the Commitments exclusively to operate services on any route connecting London with any other part of Europe (including Aberdeen and Edinburgh), or on London-Moscow, London-Cairo and London-Riyadh.

645. During the Utilisation Period, the prospective entrant shall not be entitled to transfer, assign, sell, swap or charge in breach of the Commitments any slots obtained from IAG (except for changes to any such slots which are within the twenty/sixty minutes time window and which have been agreed with the slot coordinator.). Provisions on misuse of slots also apply. In the event of a misuse, the prospective entrant shall have thirty days after such notice to cure the misuse, failure to which gives IAG the right to terminate the agreement and obtain restitution of the slots.
EC Ruling (https://ec.europa.eu/competition/mergers/cases/decisions/m6447_20120330_20212_2452290_EN.pdf)

So for the slots to become Flybe’s they would have to operate them for 6 full concecutive IATA seasons. Flybe were in their 6th season at LHR when they failed, but hadn’t completed the full season. And obviously haven’t operated the slots for the subsequent 2 IATA seasons since.

Even if Flybe’s Administrators win their case, which I have my doubts about, they can only ever be operated to European destinations, plus Moscow, Cairo or Riyadh. So that eliminates their appeal to the types of airline that have recently been spending big money for LHR slots.

Also explains why the old story that Virgin Little Red was just a ruse to get the slots for long haul never held water, and why Virgin never completed the 6 seasons to be able to convert the slots. They would have been able to use them elsewhere, but never outside those geographic restrictions.

[Albert Hall]

There is a further important provision in the remedy commitments which is likely to be relevant here. This is not specified as being valid for the Utilisation Period only but rather in perpetuity:

1.3.7 For the avoidance of doubt, the Slot Release Agreement may:
(a) contain prohibitions on the Prospective Entrant transferring its rights to the Slots to a third party, making the Slots available in any way to a third party for the use of that third party, or releasing, surrendering, giving up or otherwise disposing of any rights to the Slots; and/or
(b) provide for reasonable compensation to IAG in ...

I do not know for sure but my guess is that this case surrounds this wording and whether Flybe (or now its Administrators) have or do not have the right to sell the slots after the defined period of operation on the Aberdeen and Edinburgh routes. It suggests not but as it is not totally explicit, it may be possible to run a legal case to that effect. Obviously unless anyone has a copy of it, the Slot Release Agreement might contain some further wording to clear up this position.

[cavokblues]

I missed this myself, apologies if common knowledge, but just seen that according to a report by the airline's administrators they were awarded grandathering rights back in August, a decision IAG are challenging.

They state 'The London Heathrow slots were appropriated by International Airlines Group (“IAG”) following the
Company’s insolvency. The Joint Administrators are challenging IAG’s actions in doing so. In
addition, the European Commission granted Flybe grandfathering rights for the London Heathrow
landing slots on 4 August 2020.
In light of the ongoing dispute with IAG, we are unable to comment further on the Company’s
prospects for realising value from this asset at present. However, we will provide creditors with a
further update in the next progress report, including comment on any realisations that may be
available for distribution to the Company’s unsecured creditors.'

So, even if they are successful the administrators sound like they will use any proceeds they may make to cover some of the unpaid debts.

So, it does seem unlikely any revival plan is centred around the Heathrow slots.

https://assets.ey.com/content/dam/ey-sites/ey-com/en_uk/generic/flybe-limited-administration/ey-flybe-progress-report-5-march-2020-to-4-september-20.pdf

[biddedout]

Slightly ironic that BA is getting so precious about these slots when over the years, they have bought up regional airlines, relieved them of their Heathrow slots and then dumped them. Some of these airlines eventually ended up as parts of Flybe. . Brymon, Manx, BRAL etc.

[Snr]

Downwind_Left

Nice analysis. To give a different spin on it though. If Flybe/Flybe2.0 were to strike a deal with a major European airline there could be some tactical manipulation of these slots. Say KLM were to buy the slots, which as you say can only be used on European routes. Well KLM already have LHR slots for their AMS flights, so they use the new "Flybe" slots on the LHR-AMS route, satisfying the European requirement, and then they are free to sell their original slot to anyone they like, for instance a LH carrier who flies into Heathrow.

Of course this all depends on whether there are restrictions around the existing European slots that airlines like KLM/AF/LH etc already have.

[harriewillem]

UK CAA to consider revoking flybe.'s OL, route rights https://www.ch-aviation.com/images/stockPhotos/1939/87d7e1ca0473ef1ccf728027f43055c2c180907f.jpg

The United Kingdom Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) plans to revoke all remaining of flybe's remaining certificates, including its Operating Licence (OL) and all associated scheduled and charter route authorities.

The hearing has been tentatively scheduled for February 26, 2021.

Following flybe.'s collapse in March 2020, the regulator initiated proceedings to revoke the OL and route authorities in mid-April 2020. It ultimately withdrew the decision due to a retroactive change in European Union laws, allowing the dormant carrier to retain the licence.

However, following its acquisition of flybe., Cyrus Capital-backed Thyme Opco applied for a new OL and route authorities under its own name on December 1, 2020. Although it pledged to restart the regional carrier under the old brand, it now appears that it will do so under an entirely new certificate.

As of December 16, 2020, flybe. no longer had a valid Air Operator's Certificate (AOC). It is understood that Thyme Opco is also seeking its own AOC ahead of launch. The UK CAA did not respond to ch-aviation's request for confirmation.

Meanwhile, Shannon-based MRO specialist Atlantic Aviation Group has acquired Flybe Aviation Services' former maintenance station at Brize Norton airport. While the wholly-owned flybe. subsidiary had its main facility at
Exeter airport, serving commercial aircraft for the airline and third-parties, its Brize Norton base was exclusively dedicated to the maintenance of A400Ms for the Royal Air Force Brize Norton). Following the acquisition, the unit was renamed AAG Defence Services.

[oldlag53]

Just a bit of history for those interested. I understand that lots of people blame JF for starting the rot and certainly his salary compared to WW's at the time was ridiculous. However, I first knew him way back in 1988 at Air UK when he was a terrific boss (he was sales and marketing director), he knew how to form a loyal and motivated team around him. Even then though, there were strange signs - one of my responsibilities was producing a paper timetable (no internet!), and one day he called me into his office. We then sat there for the afternoon with him fiddling around with the fleet using a piece of paper, a pencil and an eraser! Even then I knew that this was not the right way to set up your route network.

Eventually the dreaded company politics intervened and he got shafted. A few months later he popped up at JEA as sales and marketing director. Having been shafted myself some years later, I ended up at JEA too with a number of Air UK refugees. But the atmosphere had changed - his word was law, no real discussion, and all the key decisions were made by him alone. The thread has mentioned LCY ops - well I was called to a meeting to discuss starting up there. I was there because I had had direct experience of marketing LCY routes at Air UK some years earlier. He asked my opinion and I gave what I thought was a well-reasoned talk on why it very definitely was not a good idea to start LCY ops.

A few days later it was announced that we were going to LCY! I was amazed, wondering why I had been invited to the meeting in the first place. Shortly before I left (got pushed out really) we were faffing around for a new name, which was urgently required. After discussions with BA we became British European Airways. For my sins I wangled the code BEE out of ? IATA (can't remember). After that it evolved into the absolutely awful Flybe. I had left by that time. After some manoeuvrings JF became MD, then CEO, etc. The reason for the airline starting to go down the chute was just hubris - the usual emotion that hits people when they get into an undisputed leader position.

Looking from a distance (I'm now retired) it's all very sad. Just one bonkers decision after another, with no pushback from anybody. The board were toothless as well, consisting mainly of Walker accountants and beancounters with not a clue how to run an airline. And of course, as usual, it's the hardworking and loyal staff who are the losers while the top dogs walk away with a bunch of money...

[RVF750]

Ah, the Walker Accountants.....happy memories (not). All those shell companies leasing aircraft back to Flybe to squeeze as much money out as possible before any tax was paid. Any time they were still likely to make a profit they loaned it out to the directors instead. Worked ok until the kids wanted to sell the airline...

[Whispering Giant]

Flybe Mk2 first aircraft arrived at Exeter last night from Zagreb DH8D G-CLXC a former Austrian airways aircraft formerly OE-LGA a 21 year old veteran.

[virginblue]

What is it doing at Exeter?

I have not followed the developments, but was under the impression that all of Flybe Mk. I infrastructure at Exeter has changed hands and is no longer available for a resurrected Flybe. Is it mainly the availability of personnel that has not moved on to go for Exeter again (instead of, say, Birmingham)?

[EGTE]

Maybe it is at Exeter for maintenance by Exeter Aerospace?
They have their Dash 8 approvals now - and a large pool of experienced engineers.

[Albert Hall]

You do have to wonder about the timing of all of this. Press report here (https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/airlines-business-travel-flights-loganair-b1803497.html) doesn't exactly make for encouraging reading.

[Dorking]

There does seem to be what you might call a `Bigger Picture` going on here..We`ll find out in time.

[JobsaGoodun]

Wouldn't a re-launch that offers additional connectivity in a post Brexit environment, just as the country/world begins to unlock and rebound from the pandemic be the perfect time for a new carrier to emerge?

Whilst I agree that the pandemic has very likely changed markets forever, businesses are used to constantly adjusting and adapting to the market. Loganair, Eastern, Blue Islands & Stobart all took the opportunity to adjust their networks following the failure of Flybe in March '20.

Of course there will always be the argument of what is/isn't 'fair' and I get this. Existing carriers have been battered by the pandemic and no sooner does the chance to recover emerge they have the prospect of a new opponent to contend with, but surely it should be every businesses goal to take advantage of an opportunity and I guess Thyme OpCo are seeking to do just that. I'm not surprised by the remarks of the Loganair CEO, after all he's just trying to protect a business that is likely the most exposed to any new entrant into the domestic UK market.

[Albert Hall]

I suppose if it did offer additional connectivity, you could understand it rather better. But where the airlines above plus easyJet, Aurigny, KLM, BA CityFlyer and even Jet2 have filled the gaps left after Flybe, I can't really see that the "additional connectivity" argument holds water. Additional capacity - yes absolutely. Additional connectivity though? There's not a lot left uncovered now.

[ETOPS]

There's not a lot left uncovered now.

Birmingham to Brussels?

[davidjohnson6]

I'm wondering if Flybe v2 with a few Dash 8 aircraft would have potentially lower CASM than (for example) Eastern or Loganair and thus be able to reclaim some of their former trunk routes. As an example, if Flybe reappear with a Dash 8 on SOU-EDI or SOU-GLA, up against a Loganair E145, who would win ?

[simoncorbett]

There are many destinations from Birmingham not currently operated by anyone since Flybe stopped
such as ...Milan Stuttgart Hamburg Hannover BerlinToulouse Nantes & lots of regional France plus Newquay Knock Dundee & more

[CabinCrewe]

Most of which are long shots and probably valid reason noone going near them

[ATNotts]

While many could be said to be long shots, some in @simoncorbett posting are clearly far less marginal, among them Stuttgart, Milan, Hamburg, Hanover, Berlin, from a business perspective and perhaps a couple of the "ex-pat / holiday home" French destinations on a seasonal basis. I'm sure the same applies equally from MAN and SOU.

Then on the domestic front, EasyJet offering 2 x daily service from EDI / GLA is hardly business friendly, and there must be an opportunity for multi-daily frequencies on these routes. BHD is a route that has already gone to EIR.

I don't doubt there is room for a very much slimmed down, more cautious "FlyBe2", but almost certainly branded completely differently. Prudence will be the key word if they are to succeed.

[SKOJB]

Any so called ‘business routes’ I’m sure are currently being treated with caution for obvious reasons!

[ATNotts]

For sure, business travel is probably not going to get back to pre-pandemic levels any time soon, as businesses have found more cost effective ways of holding meetings than taking day trips by air, road or rail, but there will be a market - perhaps BHX / GLA might require a 4/5 daily service, rather than up to 10 which really probably was overkill even pre-covid.

[anothertyke]

It will be interesting to see what the Union Connectivity Review says about domestic. Will they see a broader role for PSO or will they see the arguments very much as before? What about domestic APD? Is there a case for putting anything into the likes of BHX-GLA or is it up to the business community to sort themselves out if such routes will not work on a pure commercial basis? Sorry, this is a broader issue than one airline, more about the market environment for all of them.

[ATNotts]

Not a chance, PSOs are probably going to become as rare as hens teeth where there are land based alternatives such as rail. It looks as though environmental considerations may become more the fore post pandemic.

[willy wombat]

The trouble with the concept of letting EZY operate the morning and evening flights on, for example, BHX to EDI/GLA is that the early morning and evening flights on such a route are the big money flights and the off peak flights much less so. And you’ll struggle to attract a leisure market to the mid day flights when EZY are also on the route. Operating different gauge by time of day only works when one carrier has overall commercial responsibility.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

ATNotts

When was BHX-GLA ever commercially sustainable at 10 x daily? Even BA were 4-5 max at the peak of the Eurohub feed.

[boredintheairport]

A former Flybe Dash-8 took off from Maastricht this morning, destination unknown but appears to be either the UK or Ireland. There are lots of former Flybe - inter alia - aircraft parked at the airport but most haven't moved in quite a while. The registration is G-KKEV. Any idea whether it's off to become baked beans tins or found a new buyer?

[Wycombe]

A former Flybe Dash-8 took off from Maastricht this morning, destination unknown but appears to be either the UK or Ireland.

See post 31 above. 11 former Flybe Dashes are off across the pond for firefighter/tanker conversion. Looks like G-KKEV could be heading that way?

[Silver Back]

According to "Skyliner" it's on route to the USA? for Conair, for tanker conversion.

[Pistonprop]

It was planned to fly MST-RKV (and on to the USA/Canada) on 16/FEB but delayed until today. RKV is of course a fuel stop.

[ford cortina]

I wonder why RKV, having done the ferry route a many times in 73 Classic's, we always used KEF, I know its more suited to a jet, nice long runways, but still, oh well.
I take it they are stopping the night at Goose (YYR), in the intresting North or North Two.

[SWBKCB]

Air Iceland DHC-8 engineering base?

[Pistonprop]

ford cortina

Generally, my experience has been that turboprop and even commuter jet crews generally use RKV. Very handy for downtown Rekjavik if night stopping.

[ford cortina]

Fair enough, interesting.to see the difference in types.
I can see the advantage being closer to the city. Had a few good night's in Iceland.

[flyerguy]

Looking at FR24s play back look like KKEV went to KEF not RKV

[boredintheairport]

Wycombe

I didn't remember that. It does appear to have gone over the pond.

[dc9-32]

KEF offers more flexibility in terms of opening times as they are H24, the FBO is more responsive than at RKV too.
RKV opening times are 0700-2300.
JETA1 is cheaper in KEF too.

[Wycombe]

Said aircraft has departed Iceland heading WNW this morning, but FR24 trace is lost between there and Greenland. The conversions are apparently to happen in Abbotsford, so it has a few stops to go yet.

[Jamie2009]

I see lucien farrell has resigned from the three thyme co's as a director from Companies Hse. Op co, parent co and invest co

[allan1987]

I have seen this doesnt sound to good i wounder if its do to do with

CAA plans to revoke all remaining of flybe's remaining certificates, including its Operating Licence (OL) and all associated scheduled and charter route authorities.

The hearing has been tentatively scheduled for February 26, 2021.

Notice that Lucien Farrell resigned on the February 26, 2021.

though did apply for an new AOC in december and got this in February

[southside bobby]

A surprising development given too that LF is/was the majority shareholder.

[Albert Hall]

though did apply for an new AOC in december and got this in February

Are you confusing taking delivery of an aircraft with getting an AOC perhaps?

[ETOPS]

CAA plans to revoke all remaining of flybe's remaining certificates, including its Operating Licence (OL) and all associated scheduled and charter route authorities.

This is simply CAA housekeeping - Thyme Opco is not the "Flybe" referred to here.

[willy wombat]

Surely the point is that if the original Flybe’s licences etc are revoked, the Heathrow (and other) slots are lost and any “new” Flybe would have to start from scratch re slots.

[ATNotts]

I can't imagine there will be very much difficulty with slots at most airports, aside perhaps of LHR in UK, in the foreseeable future, and nobody knows what the strategy of the the new business will be - they may not wish to serve LHR anyway.

[southside bobby]

The strategy/statements at the time appeared full well to revolve around the original slot portfolio/connectivity & if this is now lost including the most valuable at LHR & MAN then the strategy(allowing perhaps smoke & mirrors) is possibly lost too.

[ETOPS]

But if the proposed new operation does not involve either Heathrow or Manchester why bother with slots at these airports?

[RogueOne]

....nobody knows what the strategy of the the new business will be

Some will still want to have a pop though. I hope nobody falls off their soapbox.

[southside bobby]

Being reported that the departure of L F is indeed linked to "problems" connected with the old BEE slots & appears to put the proposed enterprise in jeopardy.

[Jamie2009]

reported by who?

[SWBKCB]

There's a report on the Daily Telegraph website if anybody is a subscriber?

[allan1987]

Flybe grounded after hedge fund boss quits amid flight slot issues Collapsed airline's return at risk as pandemic complicates ownership of valuable take-off and landing slots
Will delete this if needed

Flybe’s return to the skies is hanging in the balance amid the resignation of a “big swinging” hedge fund manager that was plotting the airline’s revival.

Lucien Farrell of Cyrus Capital, whose friends include Ben Elliot, the nephew of the Duchess of Cornwall and co-chairman of the Conservative Party, has stepped down as a director of the company Thyme Opco, according to official filings.

Thyme Opco acquired Flybe from administrators EY in October to “restore essential regional connectivity in the UK, and contribute to the recovery of a vital part of the country’s economy”.

Mr Farrell’s decision to stand down last Monday followed a crunch hearing on the previous Friday, February 26, between regulator Civil Aviation Authority (CAA), EY and law firm Freshfields.

The administrators argued that take-off and landing slots worth tens of millions of pounds each should be handed over to Thyme Opco.



An application by Thyme Opco for an operating licence was also lodged at the hearing.

Industry insiders said that the CAA had adjourned the part of the hearing relating to the transfer of the slots having been unable to come to a final decision.

But the operating licence application is expected to be granted in the next two weeks, the sources added.

Mr Farrell’s decision to acquire the Flybe brand, intellectual property, stock and equipment sparked speculation within aviation industry circles over his motives for restarting the perennially loss-making airline.

“Slots. That is all they are doing. Trying to find a way to reclaim and sell them,” one analyst claimed at the time.

Flybe collapsed a year ago with the loss of 2,000 jobs. Cyrus Capital previously owned the carrier alongside Sir Richard Branson’s Virgin Atlantic and what was called Stobart Group, the owner of Southend Airport.



The three investors were unable to convince the Government to plug a £100m hole in Flybe’s finances and were unwilling to invest more of their own capital with the spectre of coronavirus looming.

Flybe had up to 12 pairs of take off and landing slots at Heathrow airport. In the past, the sought-after slots have traded for high prices. Air New Zealand sold one slot pair at Heathrow for $27m (£20m) in March 2020, for instance.

The ownership of the slots has been complicated by the pandemic.

When airlines collapse, the administrators would sell them to another airline. If the administrators were unable to sell them, strict rules dictate that they would be handed back to a central slots coordinator.

However, the rules have been suspended during the crisis leaving the ownership of Flybe’s slots in limbo.

Mr Farrell’s resignation leaves Thyme Opco and associated companies with just one director, Jon Peachey, the chief executive of Virgin Group’s American operations between 2008 and 2013.

Mr Farrell, 46, often targets companies facing bankruptcy. One executive once described him as a “big swinging, high-rolling kind of guy. He has got a sort of free wheelin’ style that some investors value.”

[allan1987]

While I could be wrong the only way i see this still going is that Stobart Air being brought over by Ian Woodely with funding from an UK private equity firm. Joining with Jonathan Peachey with flybe assets and New UK AOC
while using Stobart Air Irish AOC to create new UK regional flying airline.

[EGTE]

It's not all gloom and doom.........
Thyme Opco's Q400 G-CLXC performed an air test and several hours of circuits at Exeter Airport this afternoon.

[biddedout]

Allan, you could be wrong but who knows, I don't think we have seen the last of this.

It will be interesting to see the next administrator report from EY to see if there is any detail on the sale to Thyme Opco. Did it even happen? The only press reports suggest that it was subject to confidential conditions (I can imagine they revolved around the likely-hood of retaining slots). Thyme Opco seem to have leased themselves a very old Dash, but so far, that seems about it. Did they go as far as taking on the operations setup and post holders etc, or were they just working in parallel with EY to see how things panned out? Flybe still exists with the same director/s and EY have just extended the administration period for three years (and 1 year from Connect Airways). Is this to give the market a chance to recover before they flog off the remaining engines and to claim the outstanding debts (Virgin still owe about 9M according to the last report). EY were trying to hold it all together as an airline and apparently still had a few essential staff in place to make it so. What happened to them? Did they go to thyme or are they still employed by EY? Regardless of what LF is up to, are EY still trying to sell it on to another party? LF may have been sticking around to see how the LHR slots battle was going but there were other major peak-time big-airport slots in the portfolio. Desperate times but according to their reports, EY still saw value in the whole bundle.

[LTNman]

Sounds like they want to acquire the slots and then just sell them with the pretence of running the airline which is probably a front for the sale.

[BHX5DME]

EGTE

G-CLXC is due at BHX on Monday :-)

[EGTE]

Repaint out of it's current Austrian Arrows colours?

[JSCL]

LTNman

I expect IAG will offer them a lump to stop being a nuisance and take the slots. Flybe mk2 won’t fly, in my view.

[biddedout]

Possibly not but times are changing and as the big aviation reset takes place, people may be realising that the slots that BA originally asset striped from regional airlines actually belong to the regions. Other large hub airports around the world don't seem to have a problem with the smaller airlines flying in from the regions. A former CEO of Flybe (Saad) was making inroads into reclaiming LHR slots. They were presumably called remedy slots for a reason so what's to stop them being claimed again from BA in a year or so when things pick up?
Using NQY to London as an example. Flybe were doing a good 250-300 people a day with the flexibility of three rotations. BA tried NQY in the past but gave up. Their once a day new offering is hardly going to fill the gap.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

They don't belong to the regions in an open market, you want them to "belong to the regions" then you need them ring fenced in the regulations.
If you look at "other large hub airports" of a comparable size then look at runway capacity :
LHR 2 vs :
AMS 6
CDG 4
FRA 4
MAD 4
ZRH 3

This is why LHR slots became so scarce, in a purely open and commercial market, the airport has a slot that can be used for
a) flybe Q400 to Newquay (72 seats)
b) Emirates A380 to Dubai (489 seats)
Given the airport uses footfall and throughput to drive commercial retail profits to ensure a revenue stream beyond landing charges, it's a no brainer. The only way LHR gets prop feed on a reliable basis is via ringfencing certain markets and taking them out of the slot pool or finally building runway 3 ( and probably still doing the ring fencing piece). I understand, and correct me if I am wrong, that flybe's LHR operation was a loss maker. Operating Q400s against A320s at a lesser frequency to ABZ/EDI only meant that they had to lead on price. LHR is not the future of flybe IMHO, if there's a future to be had. I suspect there's not, nor should there be given where they ended up. There's a lot of good people being led up the garden path and getting their hopes up I think.

[SKOJB]

Probably best to let the old airline rest in peace!

[Albert Hall]

The proving flight on G-CLXC didn't quite make it around the operation to Birmingham and back today then?

[BHX5DME]

It got to Banbury did a 180 back to EXT !

[Whispering Giant]

Looks like the CAA made their decision on the old Flybe’s AOC and route license’s. so new Flybe will have to get a new AOC and operating and route licenses.
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1536x1109/04b9f06c_a9c2_413d_9856_874daec2f6ee_5c7188b9db3cf44955ecc8c 0c7571e397b625df7.jpeg
CAA decision on Flybe’s AOC and operating license

[PurpleDash]

They were planning on using the new OL anyway. The only reason they wanted to keep the old flybe one was so that there was enough time to obtain the slots back. After that the plan was to transfer everything over to Thyme Opco.

[Jamie2009]

https://www.caa.co.uk/uploadedFiles/CAA/Content/Standard_Content/Commercial_industry/Airlines/Licensing/20210309%20Decision%20Letter%20in%20the%20matter%20of%20Flyb e%20Ltd%20In%20Administration.pdf

Interesting read, especially Logan Air tried to have a say...

[RogueOne]

Looks like G-CLXC is being stripped down by Exeter Aerospace, after watching BBC Spotlight on the Future Skills Centre. Possible 'heavy' check, pre-proving flights etc.

Looks like it's all part of the jigsaw, getting the engineering skills back up and running for more to come.

[Whispering Giant]

It’s not G-CLXC that’s in the hangar being stripped, it’s another one from the same previous operator in the same livery that’s been in Exeter over a year for scrapping. Parts of it are for sale on EBay marketplace.

[EGTE]

The aircraft being scrapped is G-CLMT - the former OE-LGC.

[biddedout]

Jamie2009

There's a lot in there and it will take time to digest but it does look like EY have been doing a lot of complex work trying to put something together to help release a little more value for the creditors including staff and pensioners. Did read it correctly in that in theory, they did in theory manage to get a grip on the remedy slots at LHR? Lets hope they find a way to move on to plan B if there is one but as things stand the only winners in this are likely to be KLM/AF/HOP/AL etc as they move in an backfill work from the other end. I wonder what the CAA will actually have left to regulate in a few years.

[cavokblues]

Am I right in reading that and thinking the new Flybe basically wanted the slots and the operating license without the legacy liabilities (ie £500m of debt) from the old company? Isn't there a danger if that was approved it would have have left a very nasty precedent, i.e. If you have a bit of debt just close the company and start a new legal entity with no debt but transfer the OL and the valuable assets.

Also, legally, wouldn't ex employees taken on then had a very good legal argument regarding TUPE? And I'm not sure the new Flybe would have necessarily wanted to inherit the employment rights of the old airline.

[biddedout]

My understanding is that this has moved well out of the realms of TUPE and any reemployment of Flybe staff would be entirely optional and without any strings.

As for the ditching liabilities and carrying on, it seems that this is quite common these days and thee are several ways of doing it. According to EY's reports, this had been considered as a sort of pre pack administration scheme early on but was dropped due to CAA and OL / AOC issues. Whatever the intentions of the original consortium, after the Coronavirus downturn hit it and given the perilous state of most airlines it would be difficult to claim that there was some kind of scam going down to avoid liabilities.

It would have been interesting to see how they / the courts would have dealt with the pension scheme though.

As for the 400-500m of creditor claims. This figure does look eyewatering but it is a bit of a distraction in that its is a raw snapshot of what was owed the day the company went bust. Had the company been able to continue then much of that debt would have been less and due spread over many years. The pension contributions for instance were due at about 4-5m per year over about 10 years and yet the failure triggered a huge wind up debt. This would happen to any Airline with a DB scheme. It would be interesting to look at a scenario with several other large airlines if they went bust due to cashflow running out. They would all immediately clock up massive debts and for some in particular, a very large pension wind up debt.

There is a long list of Flybe debts on the EY report. Many would have been to suppliers who would probably have preferred the continuation or rescue of Flybe so that they could keep cashflows and contracts. Many would prefer not to go chasing debt with little chance of reclaiming much if any at all.

It may be that the CAA are concerned that this may be just a slot buying selling exercise with a token airline attached but I would be surprised if this was the case. If there was concern then it would be easy for EY to call the purchases bluff or at least get them to show their true intentions with a no embarrassment (don't take the pi**)clause. Obviously if the purchaser was being honest about their intentions to create jobs, help the economy etc then they would have no problem with such a clause. EY did this for the sale of Stobart back to Stobart Group. Some of the unsecured creditors might take an interest in ensuring there was no pi** taking too.

If there are conditions on retaining slots and licences in the deal between FLybe (EY) and Thyme then I assume that Flybe will fall back into the hands of EY and they will have to start all over again.

The CAA might have had some concerns but reading their letter, it does seem that they are being a bit jobs-worth. Clearly its going to be very complex for EY to put together a package but given the desperate jobs market and economic downturn, they could have perhaps been a bit more helpful. It is almost as though they made up their minds and then got their lawyers to make it all fit the laws. Ironically, they seemed to rely entirely on retained EU law.
It will be interesting to see if Flybe (EY) appeals or comes back with another structure and proposal. They have extended the administration for three years so are clearly minded not to just give up.

[Albert Hall]

biddedout, I'm afraid that any hope you might have of this helping the staff and creditors including pensioners is somewhat forlorn. Cyrus Capital held security to Flybe's slots so if there is any value realized by being able to transfer slots from Flybe 1.0 to Flybe 2.0 then it will only be to Cyrus.

I wouldn't be so sure about TUPE. The CAA thing makes it clear that it is a transfer of business being undertaken here, and it is possible that employment rights can be protected in such a situation despite insolvency. The legislation is pretty complicated, but I don't think you can say with certainty that TUPE doesn't apply. It might - or might not.

[davidjohnson6]

I'm beginning to wonder if, with the original Cyrus plan looking to be in trouble, Flybe is now at risk of being the UK equivalent of India's Jet Airways.
Former employees are likely to be finding other jobs, possibly leaving aviation altogether. I'm guessing it will take time before there is a detailed plan B - and the longer it takes before flying is expected to resume, the greater a grip competitors will have over Flybe's former markets

[biddedout]

Albert,

I agree, TUPE is very complex and under certain scenarios it may stick but in this case I think it will be unlikely. The staff didn't qualify for furlough payments and yet in theory, they fell within the qualifying period. EY claimed it would be outside their remit and they could be breaking the law if they entertained it. If TUPE could be made to stick then that could open up a whole pension legal minefield with two more regulators sticking their noses in. I think all parties will be doing their best to tip toe around that scenario. I agree, it is a long shot for the un-secured creditors to recover much more but the slot thing is very complex and I am not sure whether a Charge will entirely capture something as legally vague as a slot. Any new start will need a big injection of cash and that person is going to understandably ensure that it is all arms length from any historical claims.

I would be delighted if out of this mess Flybe's former competitors (Loganair etc) picked up much of the generally domestic work but it would be somewhat frustrating if the likes of say KLM managed to gorge themselves on Flybe's 16 or so slots into AMS and likewise for AF in CDG. It would be a shame if Mk 2 truly intended to take those routes back on and yet the CAA just put legalistic barriers in the way and allowed companies enjoying huge state bailouts moved in instead.

Similarly for the LHR slots. The reason they were labelled remedy was presumably as a remedy against BA's stranglehold on LHR. Surely the point is that it is healthy if someone manages to wrestle them out of BA's paws and preferably into the hands of a UK business so that they can provide that competition. Virgin trid once with Little Red and then tried again with Connect but sadly that was blow out of the water by Covid. The way the CAA seem to deal with things is it is more likely they will fall into a Maltese Reg operator with HQ in the Cayman Islands using mainly wet leased aircraft from China with Australian contract crews. OK, very cynical but this is aviation and there are huge number of unemployed UK aviation workers who need a little help right now.

[SWBKCB]

Ironically, they seemed to rely entirely on retained EU law.

Which is now UK law, and so is the law that needs to be applied.

and yet the CAA just put legalistic barriers in the way

at a guess the plucky underdog venture capitalists might have employed a lawyer or two who will jump on anything that isn't compliant.

[biddedout]

Yes, those lawyers have certainly done well over the last couple of years. :)

[BusterHot]

Well, I doubt they will be for much longer as even a person who’s seriously mentally, visually and aurally challenged, will realise that this whole exercise has been one of “smoke and mirrors” to try and grab any slots at LHR, if they ever really were Flybe’s. That argument will drone on for weeks, but what is definite is that any reemergence of Flybe has got a lot of former employees fired up to the extent that lots have spent a small fortune (in the current Covid/unemployment climate) renewing ratings in a vain hope of gaining employment. To have it (pretty much) confirmed that this was just a cynical exercise in making a shed load of cash to cover their past losses and then heading off into the sunset, is quite honestly totally in line with the way these “venture capitalists “ work. Yet again, the hardworking but naive employees get shafted and the ones controlling the purse strings walk away unscathed. I spent 15 years with Flybe and met some of the nicest, unassuming people you could hope to meet that just wanted to live and work in “the regions” and frequently went way beyond to make things work. Somebody, someday, will start an outfit that will serve the regions again which the current wannabes like Logansir and Eastern never will. I just hope that when they do, they start with a clean sheet and don’t involve any of the previous managers or investors.

[ATNotts]

If that's the cases there must surely have been cheaper ways of attempting to achieve the goal than acquiring a Dash 8? Perhaps not.

[biddedout]

You could be right Buster but as you say, Loganair and Eastern are not going to be filling all the gaps and many of those people who had the cash were perhaps renewing their ratings just to keep their licences going as it was cheaper to do it on a sim on a familiar rating than to use a twin. In some cases, the Job Centre paid. I think most people were aware of the possibility of what might happen regarding venture capitalists but I think it will be worth waiting to see what EY have to say in their next report due early May. In the meantime, licences have to be kept refreshed and ticking over.
They (EY) appear to have been holding onto a lot of staff to keep a credible licence holding operation going. Were these people transferred across into Thyme when they supposedly took on the business or are they still employed by Flybe (EY) and were just working in parallel with Thyme? Did thyme ever complete the deal to buy or were there strings attached to ensure that it only completed when the slots had been secured (the whole portfolio not just LHR)? What is going to happen to these retained staff now? What will happen to Thyme with its one remaining director? What will happen to Connect Airways? The CA board seems to still exist and strangely it is still owned by Virgin and Stobart (with EY in control) and yet Virgin appears to still owe Flybe £10m. Still lots of unanswered questions but there must be quite a few retained staff who are in the know and are either waiting to move onto develop plan f,g,h...k, or alternatively, are a bit p***ed off as they have been taken for a ride are about to get the boot. Someone must know what's going on at the coalface.

[SKOJB]

BE in my eyes is dead and buried, was from March last year and the sooner people realise this the better. It was a failing company then and nothing I have read suggests it’s about to resurrect itself in to some type of profitable new regional airline!

[Jamie2009]

Will Flybe restart.... No its dead, very dead. Its successor isn't dead and who knows whats to come..... We'll all find out in the next few weeks I expect.

Interesting that Logan Air wanted their say at the CAA meeting, obviously more bothered about a restart than they make out.

[allan1987]

Possibly to be with Exbmi ian Woodley in talks to buy Stobart Air. Might be part of new airline

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

After flybe and Loganair parted company with their franchise agreement, flybe went head to head in core Scottish markets in a suicide mission to harm their former partner. It threw Loganair into a period of uncertaintly and losses as they fought to survive, until flybe gave up having lost a whole load of money in a frankly vindictive enterprise. I suspect Loganair (trading since 1962) are very concerned that having survived all of that and now being battered by COVID, the thought of a debt free and eager to challenge flybe_2 dropping back into markets Loganair need to repair their balance sheet would be a worry. Flybe not having to worry about any debts or money owed as they'd already walked away scot free. It's not a good look really.

[SWBKCB]

We're assuming that LM's approach was anti - perhaps they just wanted to show them how to do it?

[TOM100]

SWBKCB

Didn’t Loganair and their parent (Airline Investment Limited) also not wipe out a load of debts by allowing bmi Regional (who they also owned) to go bust (along with its debts) and cherry pick the best bits/routes to Loganair ? I don’t profess to know the exact detail. So not sure they can claim to be holier than thou in such matters - not sure what harm this did or didn’t do to BEE in the process in terms of the competitive environment.

[Albert Hall]

I'd be surprised if Flybe even noticed when bmi Regional went out of business. Except for those who had the misfortune to work there at the time of its collapse, I'm sure the same could be said of most others.

If this is a "slot play" as rumoured, the nub of the issue is surely that this has only gone on because of the Coronavirus airport slot waivers from the 80/20 rules. If it wasn't for that, the slots would be long gone by now. I don't know what the "New Flybe" has planned but it does seem as though the Coronavirus rules might be used and abused to revive an airline which was in trouble long before we'd ever heard that dreaded C word? If that's so, I can see why others might be quite exercised about it.

Are the submissions to the CAA hearing panel in the public domain anywhere, or is there any (legal) way of obtaining them?

[TOM100]

There is a link to something in Post #161

[cavokblues]

TOM100

Yep. And then lost a TUPE claim by the pilots they took on. Not sure that precedent would be helpful for Flybe MKII, should it ever happen.

[Jamie2009]

Flybe’s administration has been extended to 3 years

[biddedout]

I agree ASW, it does seem odd that the CAA are being extraordinarily pernickety with TO considering how easy going they are in approving so many other new ragtag multi-jurisdiction multi ownership layered so called “UK” operators to nail a brass plate on a broom cupboard door. I wonder why?

[Dorking]

Maybe the CAA are wary of trying to make a souffle rise twice

[davidjohnson6]

Is allowing a company to buy the licences of a bankrupt airline solely to sell off slots that would otherwise go into a pool compatible with what an intelligent observer would regard as an orderly competitive market ? Would the CAA risk a legal challenge from other airlines if a pseudo-Flybe was allowed to revive that operated no passenger flights but did sell LHR slots before closing again ?

I don't know the answers but it must be at least on the minds of CAA and/or DfT lawyers

[southamptonavgeek]

airsouthwest

You do always seem to be the voice of reason on here. From what I can see, your opinion makes complete sense - I am one of those hoping for the relaunch to be a success.

On a side note, it appears that Farrell, who resigned following the CAA news last month, was listed on Companies House as a 'partner' with Peachey being the 'director'. I am not experienced in this kind of business so please do correct me if I'm wrong here, but I'd guess that his departure is not the sign of failure that many news outlets want it to be. Amongst others, I remember one article which said that the airline was 'grounded' - that very same day, G-CLXC took off from Exeter!

[OwnNav]

G-ECOJ en-route Iceland today, still in Flybe livery.

[Pistonprop]

And I believe onwards to Abbotsford BC., to be converted to an air tanker capable of carrying just over 2600 gallons of retardant. They will (sadly) replace the airline's Convair 580 fleet.

[southside bobby]

Venture Capitalism very possibly the two resonant words as answer.

[southside bobby]

..."concluded" wrongly in some instances then.

[cavokblues]

airsouthwest

The CAA report into their refusal didn't make particularly good reading for many other conclusions, IMO. They wanted to restart the airline and continue it as legal entity without any of the legacy debt. Further to that, the resignation of one of their directors around the time of that report does add fuel to the fire they were only after a few things.

It doesn't all quite add up, the EY administrators report state that whilst Flybe has been granted grandfathering rights the administrators will want to sell those to repay creditors.

If they can grab the slots and sell them we know, in pre Covid times, the value is huge. Air NZ sold their slot for $27m only last March. The potential value of the slots Thyme could gain far outweighs the costs of a few second hand Dash's and start up costs. (I appreciate they're currently only able to be used for a few destinations but I guess one could argue that was made by an EU court regulating the sale of BMI - could that be potentially challenged in a post Brexit UK courtroom?)

If they really wanted to restart an airline surely they could just buy the brand off the administrator and restart as a new legal entity / or start afresh with a clean new image?

[Albert Hall]

ASW there are suggestions the Heathrow slots have somehow been unlocked from the remedy slot restrictions, which means Flybe's administrators are claiming unrestricted grandfather rights to them. Barring some almighty :mad: up at Waterside, it is very difficult to see how this could be so, but that is what I keep hearing. If true then it explains why there's everything to play for.

I got hold of the notes of the CAA hearing a couple of weeks ago. There was a very telling line on Page 54 of the script where the chap arguing Flybe's corner said "The slots are essential to the business. Without them, there is simply no business. We can't operate at Heathrow without slots. We can't operate at Schiphol without slots there. And so on."

I suppose you can't really expect them to lay out their entire business plan in a publicly recorded hearing - who would? But with that type of language being used then there's clearly still quite a lot of shouting about slots going on. It's an interesting read.

[southside bobby]

airsouthwest

A heated post matey.

The main concerns on here & elsewhere revolve around the presence of Venture Capitalists which any balanced view would regard as "troublesome".

My reply to both your personal assertions are wrong & then wrong but with safeguards for those who could be set to lose yet again.

Good luck

[cavokblues]

airsouthwest

I acknowledged that they're restricted currently as BMI remedy slots but I suggested as that's an EU ruling was there a possibility it could be challenged in a post Brexit UK courtroom.

Flybe sold Gatwick slots for millions, they sold 3 to Vueling for £4.5m in 2019 and 25 Gatwick slots for £20m in 2013. Those Heathrow slots, 44 in total, would have some value attached to them in a normal aviation environment. Admittedly they're quite hard to price, the administrators, EY, can't price them and have them listed as 'unspecified' value.

[biddedout]

Maybe the authorities are starting to question why these slots continue to slip back into the custody of BA when they have effectively done a venture capitalist job themselves of relieving these slots from smaller regional operators and converting some into lucrative long-haul. Its strange how BA are the custodians or effectively trustees of these slots and yet WW was one of the first to stick the boot in and call Fybe's request for a Govt load on a commercial terms a "blatant misuse of public funds" and this happened just before Flybe potentially gained grandfather rights. If these slots are supposed to be a "remedy" against BA's monopoly at LHR, why has BA effectively been given effectively trustee status over them and yet they spend a fortune on lawyers trying to ensure that they stayed out of the hands of regional operators?

[JobsaGoodun]

I'd have to agree. How can the remedy possibly be judged to have been successful if after nearly 10 years, the slots at one of the most coveted airports in the world remain firmly in the hands of the original holder. There are certainly questions to be asked as to why this is the case and whether the original remedy fulfilled its purpose. I would also say that IAG aren't the only factor here, as the HAL charging structure has basically made it hugely punitive to operate anything smaller than B737/A320 aircraft reducing the ability of a meaningful and viable competitive challenge having any likely success.

[SWBKCB]

as the HAL charging structure has basically made it hugely punitive to operate anything smaller than B737/A320 aircraft reducing the ability of a meaningful and viable competitive challenge having any likely success.

So the size of a/c bmi operated? Why are these slots being portayed as 'regional operators' slots?

[biddedout]

It could be argued that at least six or seven of the slot pairs in question were gobbled up by BA and converted to long haul when they bought regional operators BRAL and Brymon. When they eventually tired of regional flying, they flogged it all off to Flybe. Great, job done, decks cleared and slots making shed loads of money. Only when they saw another opportunity and gobbled op slot heavy BMI did the authorities spot that the monopoly was becoming a little too obvious. When Flybe CEO Saad Hammad started moving into LHR, BA must have woken up and realised the possibility that he had a cunning plan and there was a crack developing in their aim of protecting empire LHR at all cost. Making money with Dashes into LHR would be difficult but what if Flybe developed more alliances with competitors? From then on, and realising that grandfather rights were imminent BA probably had it in for Flybe. Could it be that the CAA have never come across this complex scenario before and they are simply more scared of BA's massive legal guns than Flybe's?

[BA318]

SWBKCB

Because they could/can only be used on certain routes. The reason they became available was to ensure competition on routes which BA and BMI served once BMI became part of BA. Most of those routes are regional routes.

of course, an airline with a large holding of slots - Lufthansa or SAS for example could buy these slots, shift their slots around and then make a pair which would be better suited to long haul ops and sell them off or lease out that pair while operating these slots on their short haul flight. One way of making it work.

[BA318]

biddedout

BA still have less of a share of slots than most of their rivals have at their home bases and London is one of the most competitive markets in the world. BA we’re not scared of Flybe and a couple of Dash 8s. Flybe was losing money for years. It wasn’t BA suddenly thought it was going to succeed and killed it off. It was a badly run airline.

[JobsaGoodun]

SWBKCB

...because most of them came from BMI's services to Aberdeen and Edinburgh, and therefore the majority of the slots are restricted to these routes for the first 3yrs of any operators use. Of course, if the slots are not taken up by another operator then BA can use the slots for whatever long haul or short haul route they choose. If the remedy was designed to offer meaningful competition and after nearly a decade the majority of the slots remain with the original holder, I think it fair to question the success of the proposed remedy in the market.

I guess that Brexit may give Thyme OpCo a mechanism to question the remedy assigned to these slots and linking into the Government's proposed 'levelling up' agenda, they may just have the ear they need to get their voice heard.

[cavokblues]

If we're being cynical I would have said Thyme's old director, old Etonian Farrell had more than a sympathetic ear at the government. His association with Ben Elliot, chairman of the Tory party, gives him a direct line.

Lucien Farrell's previous history suggests he has no interest in revitalising Flybe. He wants to make himself more money and he won't see a return quick enough on overseeing a regional UK airline. You could argue maybe he wants to sell a profitable airline but the fact he resigned from Thyme OpCo the very day the CAA refused to give the new airline the old AOC, and with it any chance at certain slots, perhaps suggests otherwise.

I'm not anti Flybe, never have been. I liked the old airline and would have loved them to stay afloat and survive but I find it very difficult not to be cynical about the aims and intentions of the people behind the attempt to see the airline restart.

[biddedout]

I cannot imagine EY being too keen on allowing someone doing a smash and grab while they are busy trying to extract as much value as possible for the creditors (not very good for their reputation). Likewise, a pension scheme with a funding hole and a pension regulator taking a keen interest in not going to be keen on letting this happen. The pension regulator has been embarrassed before in these situations and I doubt they will let it happen again.

[ATNotts]

Albert Hall

The 2nd paragraph which I have highlighted is very damning, if it does indeed accurately reflect the notes from the hearing correctly. It points firmly in the direction of someone (Thyme OpCo) being more interested in making a fast buck than reviving an airline, and perhaps the leasing cost of a couple of Dash 8s is chicken feed in comparison with what htey hope they could earn from retaining and flogging off the former FlyBe slots.

I have been quite keen on the idea of a "new" FlyBe being resurrected from the ashes of the failed model, with, or more likely without, the name FlyBe but a bunch of venture capitalist sharks just out to turn a (handsome) profit, probably at the expense of the debtors of the former airline leaves a particularly nasty taste in the mouth.

[biddedout]

But there is just a chance that the venture capitalists might actually be willing to stick around for a while to try and help the venture succeed. Of course they will be interested in taking some profit out later on, that's what they do but it doesn't mean they will flog it on day one or even with the first year or so.

[ATNotts]

That's all fine and dandy, but too often they don't have a great track record of playing the long game, Grey Bull is a prime example of that, and not just in the aviation industry. Maybe I'm being a tad unfair tarring all venture capitalists with the same brush as Grey bull.

[southside bobby]

Not just this sector the evidence is all around in industry & revealed latterly the retail sector.

[Albert Hall]

Flybe CEO Saad Hammad started moving into LHR

Saad had gone by the time Heathrow came along. That happened during the time of the interim Chairman running the show and looking for a way to make Flybe more attractive in the City to help the share price, so I recall hearing at the time.

I cannot imagine EY being too keen on allowing someone doing a smash and grab while they are busy trying to extract as much value as possible for the creditors (not very good for their reputation). Likewise, a pension scheme with a funding hole and a pension regulator taking a keen interest in not going to be keen on letting this happen. The pension regulator has been embarrassed before in these situations and I doubt they will let it happen again.

The smash and grab was done before EY were involved. Cyrus had security over Flybe's slots before it collapsed and so any value is already beyond reach of EY and the pensions people.

if it does indeed accurately reflect the notes from the hearing correctly

Unless the whole document I'd got is an elaborate wind-up, it is a transcript of the hearing so reports every word. I've had a PM to say that anyone can request it from the CAA by e-mailing [email protected] to ask for a copy. It is worth a read and there are a few interesting bits but that was the stand-out line to me.

[Atlantic Explorer]

Who is paying/ funding EY through all of this? I can’t imagine they will be cheap.

[cavokblues]

Administrators are usually first in the queue to be paid from whatever money is made from the sale of the assets - they're ahead of even the creditors.

Current bill is a cool £12m. - http://assets.ey.com/content/dam/ey-sites/ey-com/en_uk/generic/flybe-limited-administration/ey-flybe-fees-estimate-and-details-of-expenses.pdf

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

The remedy slots are flawed conceptually. The notion that flybe can compete effectively on EDI-LHR is not supported.
The market is Edinburgh-London
Operators
BA EDI-LHR high volume high frequency feeding large % to long haul
CFE EDI-LCY high value high frequency point to point
EZY EDI-LGW EDI-LTN EDI-STN low cost but high volume high frequency supporting business travel
BE EDI-LCY high volume high frequency point to point compared to :
BE EDI-LHR flying propellor driven aircraft into the highest cost airport feeding almost no one, this is less of an offering to market than Little Red who were at least flying A320 and feeding long haul.

It's an apples and pears comparison, even BMI dropped GLA-LHR as the Scotland-LHR market was undermined by easyJet being a more compelling offer in market. flybe were competing on price against a higher frequency and faster service on BA, it wasn't set up to succeed IMHO. It's misleading to say BA have a monopoly per se, it's just that with the cost and constrainsts existing at LHR, no one else can really make it work in certain markets. EDI-London is widely fragmented across LHR/LGW/STN and the EDI-LHR offering is in strong competition against that. The flawed concept is that in order to keep competition healthy, someone else NEEDS to fly EDI-LHR. Arguably someone else should also be flying LHR-MAD/DUB as those are IAG monopolies with BA selling across both brands. It was a nice idea on paper that just didn't pan out.

[Snr]

Just playing devils advocate with the above statement, the BE EDI-LHR was feeding the same demographic as BA were. They had numerous codeshares to feed onwards to long haul operators, including Virgin Atlantic, Cathay, Air India, Etihad, Emirates, Delta, Singapore etc etc. The problem I suspect with BE flying domestically into LHR, and every other operator who has tried to go up against BA, is that BA can afford to take a loss on the regional market as it supports the long haul one.

This is the same problem worldwide. Most regional airlines that fly into major hubs are supported by larger flag carriers who can afford to take the hit as it keeps business flowing to the more profitable side of the company. Think American Eagle, United Express, Delta Connection, KLM Cityhopper, Lufthansa Cityline, Alitalia Cityliner, TAP Express, etc

[Albert Hall]

Administrators are usually first in the queue to be paid from whatever money is made from the sale of the assets - they're ahead of even the creditors.

Where a secured creditor has title to the assets - or in this case, slots - then the administrators get nothing if the holder of the security exercises their rights. It's basically a process of the secured creditor re-claiming property which is already theirs.

[bean]

Albert hall. Flybe never had an interim chairman.
French was chairman and after Hammad became CEO the board appointed Laffin as Chairman. This occured om 2013.
Laffin remained chairman until the sale to Connect Airways.
I'm pretty sure LHR routes were introduced under Hammads watch
they were certainly imtroduced while Laffin was chairman

[BA318]

Saad left with immediate effect in October 2016. Flybe announced LHR-EDI and ABZ in Dec 2016 operating from March 2017.

[JobsaGoodun]

...and from October 2016, Laffin was both Chairman and interim CEO of Flybe before Ourmieres-Widner arrived in January 2017

[brummmy]

It looks like it's not all about the slots. This is why Loganair were so desperate to address the CAA...

THYME OPCO LIMITED

Companies House Directors...

[willy wombat]

can you explain?

[Expressflight]

Three new Directors appointed a few days ago including Robert Knuckey who had a long history with Flybe and its forerunners as well as Walker Aviation. Any significance in that?

[Albert Hall]

TBH I can't find anything of what Loganair said either in the hearing minutes or the CAA's decision so unless someone has insight to share, we don't know what they did and didn't say. It's clear they said something though.

The new directors look like the classic finance, HR and industry trio of non-execs being stuck onto a board to lend credibility and convince external players like the CAA that there is a company structure. I can't imagine anyone is getting too excited about it beyond the comments from the new poster from Birmingham here though.

[Whispering Giant]

What I find more interesting is that one of the new directors of Thyme Opco and its parent company Thyme Opco parentco is a Anthony Kevin Hatton who was formerly a director of GB Airways, Orion Airways and TUi airways.
At least he is someone with great experience of the airline industry.

[Expressflight]

Maybe brummy was suggesting that new Directors with credible aviation histories pointed to the likelihood that this was more than just a 'slot grab' financial exercise as some have suggested. Would they want to risk possible reputational damage if it were only that?

[Jamie2009]

Albert Hall

They provided written submissions, it’s in the main body of the text

[ATNotts]

Expressflight

It does appear to make the "slot grab" theory rather less tenable, but time alone will tell.

[Albert Hall]

Yes, I can see that, thank you. The question I had was what they were about.

[Jamie2009]

Filings from Companies Hse today indicate Thyme opco now have the trade marks relating to Flybe and its previous names. This indicates a deals gone through........ Looks like Cyrus have registered a charge against the trademarks.

[Jamie2009]

https://assets.ey.com/content/dam/ey-sites/ey-com/en_uk/generic/flybe-limited-administration/ey-flybe-progress-report-5-september-2020-to-4-march-21.pdf

[RogueOne]

Thyme Opco Limited will shortly before the anticipated date for completion be renamed “Flybe Limited” (“the Purchaser”) and in preparation for the Transaction completion, the Company has filed with the Registrar of Companies an application to be renamed “FBE Realisations 2021 Limited”. Because of current capacity limitations being experienced by the Registrar of Companies, the usual same-day change of name service is unavailable, but it is expected that [b]the Company’s change of name will become effective shortly.

[TOM100]

What does that mean ?

[southamptonavgeek]

From what I can work out, that means that Thyme Opco will be renamed as "Flybe Limited" - alongside the purchase of the Web address and brands/logos, it seems to point towards a retention of the original name.

[OzzyOzBorn]

Pity. "Thai Mop Co" had a certain ring to it.

[TOM100]

But ‘realisations’ ?

[Expressflight]

TOM100

I think in this context it means bringing everything together under one umbrella to turn the plan into an operational entity.

[fjencl]

Flybe hires former BA 'dirty tricks' executive in last ditch attempt for new operating licence (msn.com) (https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/other/flybe-hires-former-ba-dirty-tricks-executive-in-last-ditch-attempt-for-new-operating-licence/ar-BB1fkvwu?ocid=uxbndlbing)

[bean]

Have you acyually read the link posted above. The deal isbirtually done and the operating licence was kept open on appeal to the CAA months ago
the article is rubbish

[southamptonavgeek]

You're exactly right. For one thing, Thyme is hardly a 'shell' considering that it is the one being renamed as 'Flybe'. Besides, the title "...last ditch attempt for new operating licence" makes no sense - a new operating licence is not what's being fought for, rather it's the old one that's wanted.

I have also noticed the media losing interest since Farrell's departure, as they think that's the end for them. It's been said by others before, but all I see is a slimy fellow who realised he isn't going to make an effortless profit by heading up a regional airline.

[davidjohnson6]

If Farrell is no longer involved (and I use the word 'if''), then who is putting up the money to (re)start the airline ?

[toledoashley]

Is Thyme Opco not just a subsidiary of Cyrus? Therefore still involved?

[davidjohnson6]

Lucien Farrell runs the London office of Cyrus Capital. If Cyrus Capital is putting up money, then it's because Farrell has decided to do so

[BA318]

https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news/102189-nordica-is-estonian-air-successor-court-says-inherits-debt

is there any chance of something similar happening with this Flybe?

I find it deeply wrong morally that they are able to jettison all the debt and staff but relaunch keeping the good bits - slots and license.

[southside bobby]

The London office...or as one newspaper referred to it this morning as "the Mayfair hedge fund".

[nguba]

Flybe Ltd is now "FBE Realisations 2021 Ltd"

[ATNotts]

Can't necessarily see why that conclusion would be drawn. They've changed the name understandably from FlyBe Ltd and plumped for that one which I imagine ensured there would be no conflict of interest with other businesses of a similar name.

[willy wombat]

What does anyone realistically think is going to happen here. Either 1/ they lose the OL and thus the slots and that's the end of it all or 2/ they keep the OL and the slots and somehow manage to sell them (possibly after operating them for a short while) and then that is also the end of it all, except that slots which were supposed to produce a competitive remedy, regardless of how unlikely that was, are now sold off and unavailable. Option 3, a revitalised, vibrant Flybe is not going to happen.

[allan1987]

Flybe Limited has changed its company name to “FBE Realisations 2021 Ltd”, Thyme Opco Limited changing company name to Flybe Limited

[biddedout]

It is all explained in the EY report linked above. Flybe Ltd (in administration) has now had its name changed to FBE Realisations 2021 (presumably because they will continue to realise some more cash for the creditors by selling off the remaining unwanted assets). Meanwhile, Thyme Opco will change its name to Flybe Limited as they have bought the operating business, retained staff, IT and infrastructure to presumably run an airline called something like Flybe. Thyme have been paying the wages of the core airline since August and given the capable board they have put together with significant experience and competency, there is just a chance that this will actually be an operating airline. LF may well want to extract some of his cash at some point down the line but it doesn't necessarily mean just through a sell and dump of slots. The details of the deal are confidential but seem to involve paying a very small amount up front and then paying more to EY further down the line, if it all works out. There is no point in speculating about intentions until they start actually taking on staff, aircraft leases, advertising routes and selling tickets.

[Albert Hall]

The report does explain it all. It also says the senior secured creditor has a £3.5m payout from the administration so far - it must have gone a long way to cover the costs that the same senior secured creditor has racked up to pay staff to keep this bandwagon rolling to try to make a return on the first gambling stake. If that's now run dry, it would explain the pay cuts in Exeter recently that led to some jumping ship.

It'll be interesting to see how things go. The CAA report says that they need to keep Old Flybe alive until 3 June for this to work out with the slots even if New Flybe gets its licences between now and then. I hope to Christ you aren't too far into this. It looks like a gamble and as with the best of them it could go either way.

[RogueOne]

I'm still shocked how many bitter people there are on here, willing and eager to twist the knife, to stir up bad sentiment and wish away the hopes of 100s of employees made redundant that it's some sort of scam.

You've no better information than those inside, developing and fighting for a phoenix from the flames.

If for no better reason than it's been a bast**d of a year... leave these people alone, wish them well and good luck, and take yourself off to facebook if you're bored.

[bean]

Well said rogueone

[BA318]

Most people want to see airlines succeed but is really ok that a carrier can run up huge debts then restart using only the good parts? What about all the other companies that lose out? So it’s fine for catering companies and ground handlers to lose out because Flybe deserves another shot? Someone has to pay when these things don’t work out and the carrier leaves a debt behind.

That’s before you even look if it’s realistic to relaunch. The carrier didn’t make money in good times. Now it’s hard to travel and rival carriers have already expanded taking over most of the worthwhile services.

I’d love to see a thriving regional scene but you also have to be realistic. Perhaps the owners do genuinely want to run an airline but at the moment, the approach of repeating Flybe (same planes/bases/operations etc) isn’t a winner in my opinion.

[ATNotts]

This happens every day when businesses are put into administration and immediately brought out of administration by their former management, or a suitor in what is called a "pre-pack administration". They are thoroughly unethical, and as you quite correctly say, leave suppliers out of pocket as the "new owners" rarely buy the liabilities, just the assets.

Distasteful though it is is, it is legal, and there is no reason why airlines shouldn't be resurrected in the same way. In my opinion, having been on the wrong end of a number of "pre packs" I would like to see the practise stopped across the board, and our response to a "phoenix business" looking to work with us was simple - "you're a cash account until such time as you settle the outstanding debt from the failed business". It was a win win policy, we either got positive cash flow by being paid up front, or the new business settled the old debt and resumed normal trading with us.

[BA318]

A good attitude to take. One which would make it even harder for Flybe2 to succeed if adopted by more companies.

[Jamie2009]

Its show business not show friends...... and no, the worlds not fair.... BUT Logan didn't mind trying to put the boot in over the recent OL and RL CAA meeting and I doubt easy are making cash on BHX/MAN to Scotland on a 200 seat Jet.

I do feel for the companies owed cash and even the other regional airlines that have battled trough COVID and racked up debt to survive.
They will have a debt free, well run, low cost airline thats competing hard against them on regional routes and they will struggle to compete and service their debt.

Flybe was in bad health and Covid was the final nail in its coffin, it is ironic that it may actually be the best thing to happen to them going forward.

[oapilot]

Don't think you can blame Loganair after Flybe put the boot in following the break up of the franchise. As you say though, all’s fair...

If they do get going it will be interesting to see if you really can run a low cost airline using 78 seat turboprops without racking up huge debts long term.

Will be interesting to see if BALPA go for a class action on TUPE too.

[SWBKCB]

Don't think you can blame Loganair after Flybe put the boot in following the break up of the franchise. As you say though, all’s fair...



Remind me what happened with BMIR and Loganair?