Flybe-V1

[cavokblues]

I think there's a difference between wanting an airline to fail and saying it's all about slots.

I've no axe to grind with Flybe, I very nearly worked for them, but likewise I have a horrible nagging suspicion this is all about slots. I think it is possible, from my perspective anyway, to wish any new airline well but remain suspicious around the motives. That's purely based on my conclusions around the venture capitalists who were involved and reading the EY reports and CAA reports.

If it isn't slot related was the Flybe brand really that revered that it's worth all these legal battles to resurrect?

[RogueOne]

Just remember whilst you're throwing muck at this new venture, it is exactly that. A BRAND NEW AIRLINE. The name and intellectual property were acquired.. it's a clean beginning.

The bad management gone, airframes gone, routes gone, bases gone, staff gone, the AOC, OL, RL might also be gone, and the slots may go too.

However, what isn't gone, is the willingness to give hope to those who've spent their own money, time, resources to be ready to step up if called to. Aviation professionals.

For these people, have a bit of compassion. I'm sure the naysayers on here would feel different if it were their company.

[southamptonavgeek]

Very well said. I could not have put it better myself. I do hope that this new Flybe succeeds - it may be all about slots but I think that, at this stage, it's very unlikely. I guess that only time will tell now.

[SWBKCB]

Just remember whilst you're throwing muck at this new venture, it is exactly that. A BRAND NEW AIRLINE. The name and intellectual property were acquired.. it's a clean beginning.

Can somebody just clarify this point? If so, why the long dance with the CAA and the receivers?

[BA318]

southamptonavgeek

Can you give any reasons you expect success? Given it failed in the past, most airlines are barely making any money and it now has competition on the routes it previously operated (often with a monopoly). It’s also chosen to use a brand which was tarnished and most public will remember as that airline that covid killed leaving people out of pocket and stranded. The cards are just not in its favour.

As I said before we all want airlines to succeed. But we also have to be realistic. What are the gaps in the market you see this airline with a couple of Dash 8s serving?

[RogueOne]

SWBKCB

Due diligence & keeping the existing OL, RL & AOC is substantially easier than setting up new ones. There are many examples of functioning airlines being bought for their AOCs rather than start that process from scratch.

& if there are remedy slots available, albeit limited in what can be flown on them - wouldn't you at least try?

You miss 100% of the shots you don't take!

[Atlantic Explorer]

BA318

Agreed. I think the reality is that if they get off the ground, there’s not nearly enough regional business to sustain everyone currently and at least one airline will go to the ground.

The Flybe brand is trashed, and I really just can’t see any gap in the market for a new ‘Flybe’ in the current climate. Loganair are clearly worried about the new adventure commencing operations given their involvement thus far which probably highlights the fragile nature of UK domestic at the moment and the near to mid future.

[RogueOne]

southamptonavgeek can add to this.... but here's my take. Which again I assert, you probably don't care for. I think you're here for the skepticism, the Flybe bashing sycophantic posting and trolling.


Can you give any reasons you expect success? Given it failed in the past, most airlines are barely making any money and it now has competition on the routes it previously operated (often with a monopoly).


All the old dead wood is gone, the bad management has gone, all the old airframes are gone, all the expensive jets - with expensive lease and maintenance deals are gone, the big spread of unprofitable routes and bases are gone, the debt is gone... it's a clean slate


It’s also chosen to use a brand which was tarnished and most public will remember as that airline that covid killed leaving people out of pocket and stranded. The cards are just not in its favour.


Whilst not the best brand, it certainly was the most recognisable in regional aviation and that in itself is valuable. Brands can heal, and those outside of aviation (SLF), give little regard for some lost luggage, or if covid cost someone they don't know the price of a ticket. All companies and airlines get bad press, fortunes turn. They don't sit on twitter and PPrune reading how much you don't like airline x.


As I said before we all want airlines to succeed. But we also have to be realistic. What are the gaps in the market you see this airline with a couple of Dash 8s serving?


Nobody knows at this point, but why can't they focus on Flybe's old profitable routes, from the profitable bases and go from there. The Dash was a great weapon of choice for these. Birmingham, Southampton, Glasgow, Edinburgh, Belfast... maybe with LHR and LCY & some PSO flights to NQY etc. Keep it simple for now. The Dash (even though no future fleet has been decided on) was a better prospect than an ATR or a Saab et al. Flies faster, flies higher, flies further, carries more people.

Here's a challenge to anyone hoping this new airline fails.... before asking why won't it work, I dare you to come up with 1 or 2 reasons it will.

If you've nothing nice to say, say nothing! Good luck to them.

[BA318]

You seem to think I want them to fail. Personally I don’t care. I hope they do succeed but history shows there is only room for so many carriers flying the same routes. I am not one of those who believe they just want the slots. I just don’t think the airline will work because the market has moved on and the gap it once filled has gone.

We don’t have to be silent just because you want to see Flybe back. Everyone has a right to question and look into things.

As for the brand, very few airline brands get redirected after failure. People don’t need to read Pprune to know Flybe failed. It was all over the national media for a week.

The possible routes you list have already been taken over. Blue Islands, Loganair, Aurigny, Eastern have moved in. EasyJet has gone in the bigger ones. The NQY PSO is gone. And no carrier has made LHR-EDI/ABZ work except BA. Just look at the names who failed on it - BMI (even with Lufthansa backing), Virgin, Flybe 1. From most reports LCY lost them money too.

The new carrier will need to find niches. Perhaps London to some of the smaller destinations in Scandinavia/Germany might work. We will have to see how Brexit restrictions affect second homes in France and Spain as that could be another market like the SOU routes (although BA and Eastern have moved on them too).

That’s why I was asking how you think they can succeed. I’m not trolling. I’m just not seeing the same opportunities you seem to. So please stop the name calling and understand people can have a difference of opinion without it being just to wind someone up. And as I said if those optimistic about this can share some possible routes where they see a gap then do share - maybe I’m not aware of gaps in the market and missing part of the picture.

[Asturias56]

"People don’t need to read PPRuNe to know Flybe failed."

especially those who used it and had bookings there - people have along memory for that sort of thing

As for the Dash - its been eaten alive by the ATR in just about every market in the world

[cavokblues]

RogueOne

I do struggle to think of any. Most of the old profitable routes have been jumped on by other airlines and they're too thin to require two airlines competing against each other. There's probably a very good reason other airlines haven't jumped on the other routes.

This new airline will no doubt at some point be subject to a TUPE claim. And a new airline will not want the old airline's pilot agreements shackled to them.

As BA318 points out, where is the niche? What will set them aside to make them attractive over other airlines to pax?

[willy wombat]

I would just add that this is not the “Flybe Appreciation” thread and people are allowed to give their views without it being considered trolling. I largely agree with BA318’s points. Additionally, I don’t believe that a reborn Flybe would create nett new jobs as there’s only so much space in the regional sector and any jobs generated by new Flybe would cause a similar number of jobs to be lost in those airlines that have taken over the ex Flybe routes. BTW I’m sticking to my guns in that I firmly believe that this is just a slots play. Time will tell.

[SWBKCB]

RogueOne

Didn't take Aer Lingus too long... :ok:

Seems like the "BRAND NEW AIRLINE" is the old one without the debtors.

[ATNotts]

willy wombat

The plan may be misguided, or doomed to failure but if it were to be just a "slots" game then they've gone to quite some extent to disguise it.

It's unlikely that any new carrier would create anything like the number of jobs that FlyBe supported at the end, but if they can build steadily, and turn a profit then who know where the new carrier might be in 5 years time. I don't know, neither does anyone else but a number of aviation professional appear to have taken the view that on balance it's worth a shot, and it's their careers not ours.

[oldart]

Seems like the "BRAND NEW AIRLINE" is the old one without the debtors.

SWBKCB Exactly, I couldn't agree more, people seem to have forgotten that.

[ATNotts]

Exactly! It's a variation on the "prepack administration" that I discussed several posting up the thread. It unethical, it's unfair and it's wrong - but in UK to name one country, it's legal! I suspect other countries have similarly distasteful processes.

[cavokblues]

It's similar as to what happens when football clubs go bust. The holding company is placed into administration and a new company set up with the football club name transferred over. Creditors are screwed over etc.

[ATNotts]

Absolutely that. I have seen cases where companies have been "prepacked" twice - the original company morphed into a new one, debt free, only to repeat the same fundamental business error, that is not turning a profit, and be flogged on again through a prepack. The only winners are the directors / shareholders or private companies and of course the accountants and lawyers.

[southamptonavgeek]

BA318;

I did not state that I expected success, rather that I hope for it.

Personally I think that 'new Flybe' could operate on niche routes in a similar manner to that of Blue Islands - having said that, SI/BCI do appear to have quite a bit of government funding.
I have spoken to a few family members who all spoke very highly of the airline despite having little or no knowledge of aviation, so the brand can't be entirely tarnished. As I have said before, we can only speculate currently, as no real announcements have been made regarding routes, dates, etc.

All the old dead wood is gone, the bad management has gone, all the old airframes are gone, all the expensive jets - with expensive lease and maintenance deals are gone, the big spread of unprofitable routes and bases are gone, the debt is gone... it's a clean slate Exactly. The original Flybe (this is surely what we must refer to it as?) grew to a size that it could not manage - debts grew as leases could not be ended, and the latest CEOs seemed to bring the airline to a temporary state of profitability before withdrawing all efforts and sinking back into the red.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

ATNotts

So if a new flybe comes to fruition it could actually kill off Loganair and Eastern. A bankrupt business loses it's debts, screws its creditors and comes back debt free post COVID to put the survivors out of business as they are now carrying unsustainable debts. I have a problem with that, it's the unacceptabe face of capitalism IMHO.

[Jamie2009]

So what? We live in the real world and it’s legal. On the other points you’ve hit the nail on the head. Average flight time for flybe was 56 mins, price and schedule will be the deciding factors for most.

[globetrotter79]

Happy to be proven wrong - but I can't think of an example of an airline successfully making it through any form of 'pre-pack' (to be clear, I'm not talking about a US-style Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection procedure, I mean a 'proper' placement into administration to enable the shedding of debts as being discussed here). Under normal circumstances, one whiff of an airline going into administration (or even the threat of) and punters lose faith overnight. (In reality, I think Covid was only part of flybe Mk1's cash issue - the hanging, and well publicised, threat of potential cessation of ops had already caused a far greater cash crisis).

All this said, the world has never experienced a major close-down of the air travel industry such as that of the last 12 months. In many respects an awful lot of carriers are pretty much going to be starting again from scratch on the vast majority of their routes once travel restrictions ease. At the same time, so much has happened since March last year that I'd wager a decent percentage of flybe's potential future customer base will have forgotten all about the whys and wherefores of their failure.

Could this be the one case of an airline/brand that manages to essentially struggle through administration and back out the other side?

(Whether there's any place left for them in what is frankly a very different market is, of course, the far more fundamental question - let's face it, if the brand was as tainted as some believe, its hardly the end of the world to change it!)

[ATNotts]

Swissair morphing into Swiss, and SABENA into Brussels Airlines were pretty close to pre-packs that are still around.

[BA318]

Both were subsidiaries which replaced and expanded the parent company no? With Crossair becoming Swiss and DAT becoming SN Brussels. Plus both had state support.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

Jamie2009

So what? I'm uncomfortable with it, legal as it may be. Hence I won't be wishing them well and every success. Same with the contortions Norwegian went through, all legal but not something I would support.

Having said that airports will be in such a weak position that all sorts of subsidy will be thrown at them to encourage folk to fly again. They could make a killing, and as I said, wipe out the competition who survived COVID. It's all a bit Chapter 11....

[willy wombat]

Frankly I think you’re all bonkers bothering to debate this. It’s a slot play, not a Flybe relaunch.

[cavokblues]

I'm not sure Loganair should feel too aggrieved about the relaunch. They closed down loss making BMIR, placed it into administration thus wiping the debts, and transferred a lot of the business over to Loganair.

[kfsimpson]

Jamie2009

Reliability.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

Calm down and get some fresh air. I'm not a communist at all, stop thinking in extremes. I am being mildly critical of being able to bring a company back from the dead minus it's debts and allowing it to start afresh as a new entity. If you think that's communism then....
They're businesses, commercial enterprises and when they fail, it's healthier for all that they stay dead. It skews the market less. Yes Loganair screwed BMI Regional, yes Eastern screwed Air Southwest. And if Zombie Flybe comes back, make no mistake, it will screw Logan and Eastern. The key difference with Logan/BMI was that many of the staff came over from the failing business and went straight back to work.
We should stop skewing the market like this, two wrongs don't make a right, and no, flybe should stay dead. It's not being a communist to state that anyone with ambitions to take on the incumbents with a new airline is free to do so and should surely try. Hardly Marxism/Leninism.

[davidjohnson6]

S1F - I'm going to counter your argument. The shareholders of Flybe have been wiped out. The creditors will likely see a few pence in the pound if anything. The management and staff have (almost) all received a P45. While the staff might well be hired in non-flying jobs, the senior managers are likely to find their CVs are tainted. What remains now is just a legal framework with various licences and rights, as well as a (very) small number of employees to ensure compliance with continued retention of those licences. What the shell company does have, is a lot of systems, procedures / policies and software, which are necesary to make an airline work. Essentially we are left with plumbing, but plumbing that, critically, is known to operate effectively at scale, subject to a suitable business model
If Flybe were left to liquidation, then all the plumbing gets sent to landfill

If Cyrus are just trying to get their hands on the slots, sell them on, and then shut down the company anyway, then I agree this is one of the undesirable parts of capitalism - essentially people getting their hands on things without having worked fairly to earn them
However.... if there is a genuine desire to restart an airline, then it seems wasteful in a society to throw away all the plumbing if it can be reused. Furthermore, by selling the assets, the creditors get to recover a bit more of the money they were owed. The shareholders of course still lose all their money, and the senior managers are unlikely to be rehired, so those who caused the company to decline over the years don't get rewarded for failure

An analogy might be a house that is in disrepair and was repossessed because the previous owner couldn't pay the mortgage. Do you demolish the house and just sell a bare plot of land, or do you sell it to a builder who knows how to fix the leaky roof and install a new kitchen, in the knowledge that the builder will make a big pile of money when selling the house in 12 months time to another buyer ?

[Local Variation]

You do realise if Flybe comes back some of those companies will get new contracts and therefore those people will have jobs again?

Strictly proforma if they have any sense. Or minimum initial credit and payment terms. Or standard terms based on recovery of debt. That said, at least one supplier will always take the chance.

[Jamie2009]

There’s no point getting irate with some one who doesn’t share your views and none of us have a clue really what’s happening.

I’m fairly sure Cyrus wouldn’t be investing cash if there wasn’t going to be a return.
I’m also fairly sure Loganair didn’t attempt to make reps to the CAA because they were bored, more like worried.

Who knows🤷‍♂️, just got to wait and see.

[oapilot]

This thread is always going to be emotive and partisan. On the one hand you’ve got ex Flybe crew who are desperate to get flying again and Flybe 2 will give at least some of them the chance to do that.

On the other hand you’ve people who don’t want to lose their jobs having struggled through the last 12 months of this pandemic, if Flybe reappear and go for the opposition.

The big unknown is the business plan. To use the builders analogy, if the repaired house adds value to the whole street, great. If it’s fixed by damaging the neighbours foundations and nicking their slates then not so.

Regardless of the slots argument, Flybe 2 could end up doing a lot of damage to the regional market.

Historically Flybe have made a big thing about regional connectivity, but history doesn’t always bear this out. Airsouthwest is right, Eastern disposed of the carcass of his namesake airline, but Flybe blew a couple of million quid selling ultra cheap tickets to Gatwick to put them off the route which subsidised most of the other routes out of the Southwest. Net result Newquay was a ghost town for a long time and the Cash Cow route ended up a PSO.

Being backed by a Hedge Fund doesn’t do much to inspire confidence that the Regions will continue to be well served if there’s a quick buck to be made.

[Atlantic Explorer]

airsouthwest

Just a small issue of a global pandemic decimating domestic and international travel and killing demand. There is no room for an extra UK regional operator at the moment and certainly likely into the mid future. Any routes are likely to have wafer thin margins if any at all.

[Jamie2009]

Reliability.... Good point, they have to start small as the only Dash sim is now in Austria which will cause logistical problems for crew training.... or Ethiopia here we come😬🤞.
Bet the lease company give them extra aircraft they won’t initially need for next to nowt, so if one breaks they can jump on a spare.

[Jamie2009]

Atlantic Explorer

A new airline with no debts could operate on wafer thin margins to decimate the opposition and play a long game. An airline with debts to service could not.....

[oapilot]

Or maybe they could just do a Flybe, go bust, and start up again minus the debt.

[Albert Hall]

I decided to take a few days out from the thread after the aggressive reaction to my previous post. Since then several others have said much of what I would have replied anyway and the discussion is live.

There is a strong view, publicly stated by some quite prominent people, that the Flybe re-start is driven only by slots and the value of Flybe's holding. I don't need to say sorry for sharing that view or noting that it has been expressed elsewhere.

There is no longer a bunch of domestic routes served by Flybe at the time of its collapse needing to be flown. As every week passes, more of the Flybe routes are being taken up by others - easyJet has taken up the second airline position on BHX-AMS and has taken over BHX-EDI/GLA, Ryanair has announced new services to Knock on ex-Flybe routes, Loganair, Blue Islands, Stobart Air and Eastern have all taken up large or medium chunks of the former Flybe network. BACF has gone on LCY-BHD and so on. And on. And on.

Unless those behind the re-incarnation of Flybe are totally ignoring all of this, there are hardly any gaps left for the reincarnated airline to fill. The other airlines have the market pretty well covered, or at least those bits of the market where there is money to be made.

A decent venture capitalist (and by all accounts the guy from Cyrus is sharp in every meaning of the word) can't fail to have spotted this. It lends to speculation there must be some other motive - and it's a short step from there to the question of value in the Flybe slots.

The new start-up has lost some key people who decided they wouldn't take the 40% pay cut imposed recently. I have spoken to one and they were pleased to get out. Times are tough all round but you can't launch an airline without postholders.

I assume we will get no closer to understanding the real plan until Flybe 2 is licenced and this all plays out. The recent management departure had the same suspicions. So as clarity won't come from Flybe / Cyrus the big question for me is on what grounds Loganair are obviously raising objections and whether these could and should be published. It could be one of a few things - the market doesn't need a new airline, foreign ownership rules with a US investor, slot blocking and possibly something else instead. In other words, do they really have a case to object, instead of objecting for objection's sake?

That's my view. If you don't like it, having a go is all very well but doesn't make me wrong and you right - or vice versa!

[EI-BUD]

Excellent debate of the various perspectives.

My guess here is that there probably more to this than seems obvious. If they can start an airline and secure the LHR slots that's a good foundation in terms of an asset and security. However, I've been around long enough to see how cut throat the industry is. Yes they may well have a sporting chance on the cost base side, but they'll need scale to generate cash to keep them in the game, and strong cash reserves to capture any sizeable network and win out over the competition who will fight their corner.

If I were a betting man I'd not fancy the odds.

In relation to Loganair, they have a sizeable fleet of regional jets that most likely will have significantly higher unit operating costs compared to a prop.

​​​​​​Southampton might have been a huge base, but I'd take it as a given the a low cost airline will secure a base their as soon as the runway enhancement is complete, feels like an easyJet space, though Wizz might move quick to secure it. In such an event Flybe2 might not get the same opportunity. BHD is wrapped up between EI and LM for comparable routes and in that market Emerald will be asking soon with a clean sheet cost base so not a quick win for Flybe2. Hard to see where the key market or operating model would be at.

[Jamie2009]

Albert Hall

Who’s left the business out of interest? Which posts not people?

[biddedout]

Whatever the motives they already look more credible as a business than some of the many brass plate (UK).com (registered in Jersey:hmm:) airlines currently springing up all over the place and being dutifully rubber stamped by the CAA.

[southside bobby]

... "many brass plate (UK).com (registered in Jersey) airlines currently springing up all over the place"....Please enlighten your audience.

[bean]

Laker Airways was a brass plate Jersey company. Much revered and totally screwed by the cartel of North Atlantic operators
What do you think about them?🥶

[southside bobby]

Original poster comments are in the present tense..."currently springing up all over the place" so can the audience be enlightened please.

[medod]

I read the EY report.

Seems as likely to me that Cyrus bought the business to try and sell it (and in particular its slots, hence the appeal to the CAA over the withdrawal of the OL) on as to actually (re)start an airline, if not moreso.

Tell me why I'm wrong.

Edit: downloaded the report and read it over the weekend. Hadn't looked at new posts since then. Reading them, I guess I'm not wrong.

Edit edit: aiui ownership of the slots depends on having an OL, having an OL depends upon various other bits, people etc being in place. So a pretence of possibly being a functioning airline needs to be retained. Everything points to Cyrus believing it can realise value from the slots.

[biddedout]

I am talking about the subsidiaries of foreign airlines setting up UK businesses to get UK AOC's to get round the brexit fiasco. Effectively controlled from afar and propped up by the parent.

[bean]

Well, Cyrus won"t get any buyers for the slots for 2 to 3 years at leasy due to the pandemic and by that time will have lody them again

[ATNotts]

I read the EY report.

Seems as likely to me that Cyrus bought the business to try and sell it (and in particular its slots, hence the appeal to the CAA over the withdrawal of the OL) on as to actually (re)start an airline, if not moreso.

Tell me why I'm wrong.

Edit: downloaded the report and read it over the weekend. Hadn't looked at new posts since then. Reading them, I guess I'm not wrong.

Edit edit: aiui ownership of the slots depends on having an OL, having an OL depends upon various other bits, people etc being in place. So a pretence of possibly being a functioning airline needs to be retained. Everything points to Cyrus believing it can realise value from the slots.

I get that, but it's one thing the company wanting / needing people in place, but which "people" would be willing to join the business and potentially muddy their career credentials given that the motives of Cyrus so blinding obvious to people on this forum?? They have either spun them a bloody good yarn, or else there is the intention to actually operate an airline, however flawed many posters and pundits believe such a plan is.

[biddedout]

Exactly AT.
Meanwhile welcome home ECOI.

[southside bobby]

"Springing up all over the place"...
The alluding was far greater than the facts I guess then.

[Wycombe]

Meanwhile welcome home ECOI.

Interestingly appears to have crossed the pond eastbound (via Iceland) yesterday, and is just arriving in TLS as I type having departed WIC earlier.

Guess this one isn't going for firebomber conversion. FB post I saw suggests its on its way to Oz?

[southside bobby]

...Receding into the distance perhaps...slated for next stage = TLS-Heraklion.

[Whispering Giant]

It’s off to Oz to fly for Cobham Aviation. Photos I saw of it earlier show it in Cobhams livery.

[medod]

ATNotts

I imagine the 10-20 people we're talking about (at a guess) don't mind taking a paying job where they live, when there's absolutely nothing else available. At a guess

[Albert Hall]

Albert Hall

Who’s left the business out of interest? Which posts not people?

Chief Technical Officer, Director of Maintenance and Director of Safety/Security/Compliance. Not sure those were their exact job titles, but three have all left recently. From what I know, there's an obvious / strong personal reason why one has jumped ship but the same drivers are not present for the others.

Going back to the debate, Flybe's representative at the CAA hearing said - and I quote:

The slots are essential to the business. Without them, there is simply no business. We can't operate at Heathrow without slots. We can't operate at Schiphol without slots there. And so on.

Without them, there is simply no business. There is always a danger in taking a single quote out of context but I think that says quite enough. Pretty much the whole argument put forward to the CAA to keep the original Flybe licence alive came down to slots.

[SKOJB]

This whole thread is becoming slightly boring as its very obvious that there will be no BE mk2 and instead is a transaction to recover huge financial sums from LHR slots

[Sandy78]

It's all slightly amusing! Very nicely polarised!
Just to get a few things straight in my mind, didn't Cyrus (through connect) mortgage the LHR slots to finance Flybe? Wouldn't that be a good reason to want to keep hold of them aside from starting up a new/old airline? Also, if Cyrus get to hang on to them, can they just sell them to anyone at anytime? Aren't they domestic only? My knowledge is limited on the opaque world of slot trading!

Finally, Cyrus have past (very lucrative) history with Virgin America, I would have thought the scenario that played out in the US would be a motivator in any new venture the two guys at the top get involved with.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

If it's no big deal why are you so very obviously angry at what happened to Air Southwest? Surely another airline would simply take their place? Well no, clearly not, and you know that. And if Loganair go bust, that's just like buses really, as another airline will launch services in their place tomorrow. Stornoway being the Heathrow of the North......?

Just like Plymouth, I mean that's a bustling regional airport? Right? Super simple as Newquay went from strenght to strenght? Er no.

You're over-simplyfying things, and as for a post COVID UK market, no one knows what that's going to look like, and while I welcome competition, as I said, I don't welcome a debt free Zombie Flybe capacity dumping simply to build market share and bump off the competition weakened by the last year. That's not leading to lower prices for anyone in the medium term. Time will tell.

[ATNotts]

SKOJB

How you can in all confidence make such a statement is totally beyond me. The ONLY PEOPLE in any position to make such assertion are Cyrus, Thyme Op-Co and their employees. If you were one of the latter, then divulging such information would be unprofessional at best, at worse subject to legal consequences for breeching commercial confidentiality.

[cavokblues]

I'm probably doing 2+2=5 here but I wonder if there is any connection between the rumours Mesa Air want to get involved in a European carrier and the new Flybe?

Mesa were sniffing around Flybe a few years ago I seem to recall.

[JobsaGoodun]

If Jamie2009 is correct then I'd suggest the link is Virgin America. Wiki (whether you believe it or not) says that Dave Pflieger was involved in setting up Virgin America at a time when Cyrus Capital as one of the original investors.

[Jamie2009]

It’s in the filings at companies house

[Albert Hall]

He's been involved for many months. Must be first public mention of it but he has certainly been around for a while and the link is with Cyrus from Virgin America. He was described to me as very knowledgeable about aircraft and technical but not everyone's cup of tea. To be fair I guess that is not unusual in senior roles though, and that was one person's view alone.

[ATNotts]

I have had several bosses down the years who were extremely knowledgeable, but also obnoxious. Technically or financially competent people aren't always the easiest to work with or for.

[Jamie2009]

Flybe is reborn. Thyme Opco has just been officially renamed......

[fjencl]

So what happens next ?

[cavokblues]

I suspect it all depends on their appeal against the CAA's decision to revoke their OL.

[jethro15]

https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/12875147

[toledoashley]

cavokblues

Wasn’t it the case that they were waiting for that to be resolved before changing the name?

[jamestkirk]

If it does get going again, calling it Flybe is nothing short of corporate self harm.

good luck with a relaunch but for the love of god rebrand.

[commit aviation]

Reborn Flybe plans summer restart | Travel Weekly (https://travelweekly.co.uk/news/air/reborn-flybe-plans-summer-restart)

More a PR piece than any new details. Will be interesting to see how they get on.
Regardless of the rights and wrongs previously discussed, I imagine that the Dash8 with it's low cost base and extra seats compared to the E145 might fair ok in these markets.
However on the key routes where EZY are competing with an Airbus, maybe less favourably. No doubt BE will look to operate more frequencies to appeal to the business traveller but without the low cost mass market element, I imagine they could lose out.
I wish them well and hope I am proved wrong.

[Whispering Giant]

Sale of Flybe to Thyme Opco completed, and Thyme Opco as of last night had already changed there name to Flybe.

https://www.devonlive.com/news/devon-news/flybe-sale-completed-more-year-5298224?fbclid=IwAR0PWyn931zZZdxeSscvrz0Byi9fOcFpl7AUJZbDhVL GmtbLpHFuntDbBZ4

[cavokblues]

toledoashley

I could be wrong but I think the rename was more to do with the sale of the assets by EY rather than a sign their appeal against the CAA's decision has been successful. If you read the CAA's report, they're clear that the it's the old company, now called FBE Realisations, which has to meet the financial tests not Thyme / Flybe 2.0 to be considered for the OL. They very clearly state the OL is not something which can be transferred as an asset.

Flybe's own argument at the CAA hearing said: "Removing Flybe’s OL would jeopardise the sale of Flybe to Thyme OpCo and, with it, the potential benefits for the UK economy." I think it's a fair bet the entire restart hinges on them getting the OL back.

In terms of an appeal being successful against CAA, would a lot of their recent activity - i.e. aircraft being registered etc - be an attempt to rectify shortcomings mentioned with the CAA's conclusions where they stated back in March: were Flybe to apply for an OL for the first time now it would not qualify, irrespective of its financial position, because it is not purporting to function as an air carrier even notwithstanding the constraints of the COVID-19 pandemic

It seems like the CAA had not seen enough evidence they were an actual airline, so perhaps the new directors and fleet registrations allow them to show they are a genuine airline able to meet 12 month financial obligations? Even so, I'm not convinced that is enough for the CAA to agree to the transfer of the OL judging by their conclusions as they're not the previous airline, despite what legal titles may say.

[esa-aardvark]

I travelled a bit with Flybe. Their schedule to/from Spain did not fit
with holiday apartment bookings. Ground staff seemed to hate passengers.

[caaardiff]

I wouldn't say ground staff hated passengers. I would say ground staff hated inconsistencies with Flybes policies, especially related to hand baggage. This led to a lot of confrontation with passengers which Flybe didn't seem to care about. Ground staff had to enforce it regardless.

[toledoashley]

You would hope with a clean slate (near enough), that former policy decisions would be reversed. I'm curious as to the announcement, with them previously stating that the sale would be on condition of resolving the slot situation with the CAA, that neither would mention it in the press soundbites today.

[ATNotts]

Those claiming the new FlyBe was nothing more than a slots sales ruse have gone a little quiet this morning

https://travelweekly.co.uk/news/air/reborn-flybe-plans-summer-restart

I won't the first to trumpet this as a great success, as Simon Calder notes in The Independent it's not going to be an easy ride as so many of the former FlyBe routes have been taken on by other carriers, but I'm sure many, if not most people posting here will with the new management every success.

We'll see where they are in 2 years time.

[toledoashley]

In addition, in Simon’s article it only referenced ‘domestic routes’. The story in the European side is slightly different, and in some cases could be an interesting starting point.

[cavokblues]

A slight word of caution - right now all that is happened is Thyme OpCo has legally bought the old name. As far as I'm aware they have not overturned the CAA's decision not to award them the OL. It doesn't disprove anything just yet about whether it is or isn't a slot grab.

Flybe / Thyme clearly state in the hearing the award of the OL is integral to the airline restarting.

[Back at NH]

cavokblues

Its been a long time since I was fiddling around in this area, but I’m pretty sure a prerequisite for an OL is an AOC. Hence, “not purporting to function as an air carrier”.

Update
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x536/5f0ecd5c_4b77_4487_9a4f_58462b2271d6_5be93e07749414753ee4619 d4febe3090195235e.jpeg

[airspeed75]

Interesting to think this FlyBe Mk2 reckon they'll be back this year.

A "summer restart" with current social restrictions in place and all four nations of the UK unable to agree any commonality with said restrictions is going to seriously limit any launch plans for a "new" airline. Particularly since most people will have already booked accommodation wherever they plan on holidaying domestically, most will plan on driving due to it being easier having the car.

Also, business travel will never be the same again with the large scale adaption of zoom meetings and the likes. Let's not forget that FlyBe 1.0 had a large proportion of business travelers on their first and last wave flights. My partner for instance used to take two trips per month minimum and will no longer be doing so in a WFH environment.

With SAGE now worrying about local restrictions due to the SA variant etc who knows what farcical restrictions we can expect to rear their ugly head.

Take it from someone who is currently flying that this summer is all but a write off- as for next winter god help us.

I did a positioning flight into BHX lately on an our A320 arriving at about 2000 and the terminal duty manager had to come and turn the lights on and unlock the terminal to let us out. The passenger numbers are that bleak. Terminals lie empty, public perception is anti-flying due to being anti-variant.

Good luck and all but the industry has fundamentally shifted and those who have been away from flying for over a year potentially haven't seen first hand the empty terminals and airport car parks- or received a load-sheet in single figures on an aircraft and route which used to be triple figures.

[brummmy]

I see £20m has been plonked into the coffers, for starters, according to Companies House...

[Pistonprop]

That will just about cover the executives' salaries until they find a convenient excuse a year or two later that the project is not viable!

[ATNotts]

Absolutely understand your desire for the airline to fail, but with respect that is a slightly daft statement.

[Jamesair1]

I wish them the best of luck and I'm looking forward to reading more about the planned intra UK route structure. With only four of its previous 46 UK routes left unserved but with a forecast of huge Staycation demand, competition on popular routes is a strong posibility. Has anyone heard where the proposed main base will be?

[RVF750]

I sincerely hope they manage to pull it off. So many good friends driving delivery vans right now who deserve to be back in the air. I would think Southampton and Birmingham may well be the most likely places to start, with Manchester shortly afterwards. It's often true that the price of the seat is often inverse to the size of the aircraft. If you aren't :mad: a fortune in bent leases to Uncle Jack's kids fund, the Q400 is an excellent aircraft, 78 seats for the operating cost of the 50 seaters. If they get the cost base right, they can could compete very well indeed.

A Q400 on UK domestic routes will be as fast as a 145 within a few minutes and half the cost to run, so should be a bloodbath. One thing they need to learn is the mistakes of the customer experience. Disinterested 3rd party staff enforcing draconian hand baggage rules, lack of flexibility in booking and travelling. These things put folk off. The crews were the absolute best. I'd love to see them back where they belong.

[cavokblues]

Failed Flybe set for new takeoff (archive.org) (https://web.archive.org/web/20210415030209/https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2021/04/14/failed-flybe-set-new-takeoff/)

From the Telegraph the other day:



Flybe is close to taking off once again after regulators granted the airline permission to return to the skies.

The Civil Aviation Authority has granted a new company founded by Cyrus Capital’s Lucien Farrell an operating licence. (https://web.archive.org/web/20210415030209/https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2020/12/06/old-etonian-farrell-flies-high-cyrus-capital/)

Mr Farrell’s Mayfair fund bought Flybe’s brand and other assets from administrators EY last October amid plans to “restore essential regional connectivity in the UK”.

Cyrus was a shareholder in Flybe alongside Sir Richard Branson’s Virgin Atlantic when what had been Europe’s biggest regional airline collapsed in March 2020.

Jon Peachey, who previously led Sir Richard’s US operations, is a director of the new company that recently changed its name from Thyme OpCo to Flybe Limited.

He is working alongside Kevin Hatton, the former British Airways sales executive who was named in the “dirty tricks” litigation with Virgin Atlantic 30 years ago.

Granting an operating licence removes a key hurdle in Mr Farrell’s dream of returning the airline to service.

Making his dream a reality now hinges on whether the CAA will reverse its decision to revoke the operating licence of the Flybe company that is in administration. This business retains the rights to take-off and landing slots at Heathrow airport that could be worth tens of millions of pounds.

Despite intensive lobbying from Mr Farrell, EY and law firm Freshfields, the regulator stripped the company that is in administration of its operating licence in late February.

An appeal about that decision has been lodged with Grant Shapps, the Transport Secretary. Until a final decision is made, the slots remain in the hands of administrators.

If the slots are still in their control by June 3, they could be transferred to Mr Farrell’s new company.

Industry sources have long suspected that Mr Farrell’s motive for relaunching Flybe was to sell the slots, rather than run what has been historically a loss-making airline.

A CAA spokesman said: “The UK Civil Aviation Authority can confirm that Flybe (formally known as Thyme OpCo Limited) has been granted an operating licence. This licence allows Flybe to undertake commercial air transport and was granted subject to the company meeting the qualifying legislative criteria and requirements of a new applicant.”

A spokesman for EY said: "An appeal has been lodged against the Civil Aviation Authority’s decision to revoke the operating licence held by FBE Realisations 2021 Limited (in Administration). Currently, and during any appeal process, the operating licence continues to remain valid."

Cyrus Capital declined to comment.

[Plastic787]

airspeed75

Whilst I agree that the situation is dire right now it has to be taken in context; travel is still illegal except for a few specified reasons. Projecting forward using passenger numbers right now is like making a diagnosis about a patient in hospital with a broken leg that he’ll never walk again because he can’t make his own way to the toilet. Things will improve from the present picture, I’m not hugely optimistic that it’ll be going gang busters again straight away but it will improve..

[southamptonavgeek]

This may not be significant but the G-INFO page for G-CLXC now reads "Flybe Ltd" under "Aircraft operated by AOC Holder".

[davidjpowell]

I see along with the slot argument people are going on about the pandemic.

but the newco is coming out of it with minimal overheads and can simply start to ramp up operations when recovery is viable without the headache of paying for the last 12/18 months downtime.

we don’t know quite wha the world will look like, but people will still want to travel on holiday and for business. While zoom meetings keep things going there are a lot of businesses desperate to get some sort of face to face interaction. Biggest change may be amount of home working but I can’t imagine this sort of commuter was ever a Flybe customer.

They also have the old route data, plus regional airports on their knees.

I am not writing them off in my head, as yet.

[Asturias56]

I liked the original BMI but Flybe was neither one thing nor the other in my experience. Never seemed to be able to make its mind up as to what sort of airline it was.

One thing for sure - they'll have to change a lot of things to succeed post Covid. The UK hasn't missed Flybe at all - and the competition is practised and in place - I wouldn't put any of my savings into a new airline for sure,

[ATNotts]

For sure most countries haven't missed any airline since for the most part flying has been off the menu! Agree I wouldn't put any of my hard earned money into an airline, they aren't generally safe bets in normal times!

[Alteagod]

Did Richard Branson or maybe it was Freddie Laker who said the definition of a Millionaire was a Billionaire who got involved in running an airline!

[Wycombe]

I believe Branson's actual words were that the "only way to make a small fortune in aviation was to start with a large one!"

[Asturias56]

So why do so many people get drawn in? It makes no sense.....................

[davidjohnson6]

For the same reason that very few kids aspire to be an auditor of accounts when they grow up...

[bean]

If people did'nt get drawn in, the Flybe bashers would have nothing to drone on about and their lives would suddenly seem very boring

[GROUNDHOG]

Wycombe

I believe that quote was around before RB was born.
The same as the story about the person that asked Branson/Laker/Sugar/whoever to say come over and say hello whilst having a meeting with an important client. "Hello Richard/Freddie/Alan , not now I am busy"
Back to Flybe now!

[airspeed75]

airsouthwest

Well so long as restrictions continue it'll be zoom et al going forwards unfortunately. There's Sturgeon up north just come out the other day and said "travel restrictions will be with us for some time to come" and hasn't indicated a roadmap away from this whatsoever. All the while Europe is in the grips of a third wave and the media plies the public with constant barrage of "variants".

Whatever they do it'll have to be something vastly different as how many people used to use FlyBe in order to connect to other international flights and the likes.

To those saying that the pandemic is irrelevant because "things will get better" I agree in the long term but they're on about a "summer restart".

Maybe it'll just be this one Dash located down in EXT doing the odd flight here and there whilst they flog the slots off out the back door?

[ATNotts]

If you thought beyond your own agenda for a moment you'd realise that operating an airline with one aircraft on a route to anywhere that makes no profit just for the sake of selling slots isn't a business model. Thank the Lord I don't work for an organisation with someone of your mindset at the helm.

[Albert Hall]

And operating an airline with lots of aircraft on routes to everywhere that make no profit as they're in competition with half a dozen other airlines doesn't look like much of a business model either, though.

Let's see what happens from here. I think anyone would be hard pushed to dispute that the slots are seen as being of very significant value after everything they said in the CAA hearing. You surely wouldn't be going after LHR slots to make money flying them after the disasters that were Little Red and Flybe's LHR adventures...would you?

[ATNotts]

No, competing with the big boys at LHR is / was a daft idea. Flybe could and should have focused on routes with less, or no competition from airports well away from LHR. I suspect that is what they will do, and IF there is the opportunity to raise capital selling slots, given the depressed state of the industry presently, they'd be foolish not to flog them. However that doesn't make running an airline just for the objective of selling slots a business plan.

Flybe aren't going to be an airline with 10s of aircraft operating from hands full of bases any time soon, but that isn't to say they won't find a profitable niche and grow organically.

[Jamie2009]

Flybe are in a good position because the longer this saga continues the competition are losing cash and Flybe not spending theirs.

Flybe can also respond to demand (whatever that may look like) as there is no shortage of Dash crews or aircraft ready to be reactivated.

[Asturias56]

The problem with organic growth from non-major airports is that it works for a while - then someone bigger (bigger planes, bigger work force, bigger loses) decides they can, for very little extra cash, get into this nice new market

Then it murders the original airline and the big boy never makes any money and pulls out as well - rinse & repeat

[southside bobby]

On the mention of "business plans" perhaps another rereading/resume of Venture Capitalist "business plans" may be in order too.

Not so sure "growing organically" is a chapter or even a paragraph in those plans.

[ATNotts]

You're not wrong as regards "Vulture" capitalists. Thankfully the one involved here isn't the legendary Greybull, and hopefully they may give the airline a decent amount of time to prove there is a viable business to be grown.

[BA318]

This talk of Flybe finding niches is my point from earlier. What are those niches? An earlier article said 42 of Flybe’s 46 routes are now served by other airlines. The European market is likely to be limited this year. Where does Flybe go?

second, while they are not burning cash as much perhaps as other airlines they will also have other costs - start up fees, leasing fees (they have had this plane for a while now so would obviously be paying something), staffing costs not to mention the advertising and brand awareness costs to repair the image if they use the Flybe name.

Despite what some think I am not against them and would like to see them succeed but I think it will be very tough and to be honest I doubt it will happen and we risk more people getting burned in the process.

[airspeed75]

ATNotts

No agenda here, it's neither here nor there to me if they are a success or not!

I think what we have here is a group of folk scratching their heads wondering why anyone would inject their hard earned cash into an airline in a pandemic in which travel has been decimated - and on the other side a group of people who are emotionally attached to a failed airline and any word against it rising from the ashes is seen as a personal attack.

[Downwind_Left]

BA318

Not to wade into speculation on where Flybe 2.0 might fly, but Flybe 1.0 served in excess of 50 destinations including seasonal ones at the time of closure, actual routes must have run into the hundreds, as many destinations served by multiple departure points. So the article that 42 out of 46 routes have been taken over is wildly inaccurate unless referring to a specific airport.

[cavokblues]

It's 42 out of 46 domestic routes that have been snapped up.

[Albert Hall]

The report was here (https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/flybe-relaunch-regional-uk-routes-b1831411.html). It was talking about the number of domestic routes Flybe flew at the time of its closure - so doesn't cover international which must have been at least the same number again if not more. I think this also doesn't take in the number of routes that Flybe had already dropped before it failed - there was quite a big cull in autumn 2019.

[davidjohnson6]

Interesting article on possible Flybe routes
https://simpleflying.com/flybe-2-routes/

[JobsaGoodun]

airspeed75

Playing devils advocate, in a capitalist economy there will always be those that see a depressed market as creating significant opportunity - think of Ryanair placing a large order for new 737's immediately following 9/11.

The market will rebound from this pandemic and I expect that a number of major aviation cost centres are depressed at the moment (e.g.) lease rates, employment costs, airport costs. With this in mind, it's understandable that there are potential new airlines looking to commence operation.

[toledoashley]

Is there value in an airline a bit like Volotea - a regional carrier connecting secondary cities with relatively low frequency in which might be too thin for a LCC (or not possible in somewhere like SOU?) - mainly based around Northern Europe?

[Jamie2009]

I don’t think Cyrus are going to be happy and settle for a couple of planes on not taken up routes....

If it’s not a slot grab and none of us know the truth.... then there’s some serious competition coming.

[EI-BUD]

Where do Virgin fit into any of this?
Is there going to be a strategy around feeding Virgin flights? Is the new Flybe going to be a vehicle in the interim to utilise slots at LGW or LHR once the 80/20 rule returns? Commentary has suggested that travel will not return to 2019 levels until 2024 or something like this. The likes of VS or even BA may like to see a small commuter aircraft fly in and out of LHR rather than either A. Lose a shed load of money on a wide body flight or B. Forfeit the slot.

Equally VS May not want to see its slots at LGW passed to Wizz, Flybe could utilise this strategy to give them time to build their future business model...

We are already seeing numerous routes on small aircraft going into LHR, some cases props, IOM, MME and potential others to follow, where are the slots coming from for these?

In any case, if they attempt to come in with a big bang and return to its old volume routes, they'll bleed cash as other airlines are in already, eg BHD- MAN, BHD-BHX, etc

[allan1987]

I'm sure its a codeshare with Virgin with big part of this for feeding flights in to MAN, LHR and LGW Airports for Virgin.

Flybe will use Virgin Slots at LGW so will not be lost. Though I'm sure Flybe will also apply for more when market picks up.
Did say on first administrators report about main Bases in Man and London Airport more this likely to be LGW and few slots at LHR, Also on the first report said about 21 Q400 planes.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

Flybe won't be feeding anyone at LGW using the Q400 unless the charging structure changes back. It was the move to favour A320 size at the expense of turboprops that caused flybe to close LGW in the first place, abandoning long built up routes to INV/BHD etc. Only NQY survived on the back of a taxpayer bung, LGW will not work for flybe unless LGW give them a very good deal, which of course they might, depends on how desperate things are.
Besides I don't see Virgin back at LGW for a few years at least.

Unless Virgin have the money to subsidise flybe2 to make losses at LGW for the sake of slot sitting for five based aircraft for a few years.

[Flightrider]

Virgin is not involved in this Flybe restart in any way. It is completely removed from it through choice and concentrating entirely on its own business. No reason to rule out some kind of interline or codeshare far down the line, but the type of activity suggested in recent posts is just not happening.

[SWBKCB]

Thanks for confirming, I was thinking the same - so is Flybe2 now just a Cryus venture with no Virgin and Stobart involvement?

[Flightrider]

Correct. The only continuing Virgin and Stobart interest is in any secured creditor distribution from the entity now called FBE Realisations.

[Rivet Joint]

20 A220s recently ordered by an undisclosed customer. Interesting.

[davidjohnson6]

It's a popular aircraft. Do you have anything to link an order to new Flybe (as opposed to any other airline) or are you just speculating ?

[Rivet Joint]

Just speculating. Although perhaps a change of business plan would make sense. It seems logical to suggest that BE should go back to being a smaller operation based around Q400s serving trunk routes at a few key bases like BHX, SOU etc. However, if business pax is going to dwindle as a result of zoom meetings and the heat is turned up on domestic flying by the green mentalists like in France, is that an attractive market? Perhaps serving secondary routes that are currently unserved like the new low cost airline in America called Breeze is a market that has growth and little competition? BE now has a clean slate so could be in a position to order or lease new aircraft?

[toledoashley]

That's exactly where I see a gap. A little like how Volotea started in Italy/France - secondary cities (Venice, Bordeaux etc), to other secondary cities with lower frequency - or Breeze/Connect in the US. There has been a lot of talk about flyBe being a domestic carrier, but really there were regional - so France, Germany, Netherlands and the nearer parts of Scandinavia. Could be an interesting model in that.

[Whispering Giant]

CH Aviation news are reporting that the new owners of Flybe have been granted a operating license by the CAA.

https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news/102732-uk-caa-confirms-granting-ol-to-new-flybe-owner

sorry it’s behind a pay wall, so can’t access the full article.

[fjencl]

Future of Flybe's Heathrow landing slots still up in the air - Business Live (business-live.co.uk) (https://www.business-live.co.uk/enterprise/future-flybes-heathrow-landing-slots-20427918)

[cavokblues]

Interesting to discover if this is the outcome of their appeal or a fresh new OL.

Flybe 2.0 argued previously at the decision to revoke the old Flybe's OL they should be allowed to have a new OL and the old one simultaneously whilst they transferred allocated slots to the new airline.

[jethro15]

CH Aviation news are reporting that the new owners of Flybe have been granted a operating license by the CAA.

See page 2 - http://publicapps.caa.co.uk/docs/33/2433.pdf

[cavokblues]

fjencl

I think that article made me more confused than anything, seems to jump around a bit with the timeline. (Maybe it's just me and my brain turning to mush during furlough....!)

My understanding was the EU had awarded the old Flybe (now FBE Realisations) the grandfathering rights on the slots. This has been challenged by IAG.

The CAA had also revoked the old airline's OL, which Thyme OpCo wanted transferred to their new airline. Thyme Opco (Now Flybe Ltd) have appealed that decision. The old airline's OL remains valid until the appeal has been heard and the decision overturned or ratified.

[allan1987]

looks to be Flybe have got back the remedy bmi slots?

Flybe have acquired 86 weekly slots at London Heathrow from British Airways - these are listed for a Dash-8 (78 seat) aircraft with Edinburgh listed with 50x weekly (5x daily) and Aberdeen listed with 36x weekly (3x daily flights)

[dixi188]

Ah! The new 10 and 12 day weeks!:)

[fjencl]

That's a lot of sectors for 1 dash 8 to undertake (well i say 1 dash 8 as that's the number of aircraft registered to them so far) Time will tell tho..........

[Pistonprop]

So they intend to compete against the A320Neo with Dash 8 equipment?

[EGTE]

2 slots required for each flight from Heathrow - take off and landing!

[dixi188]

Makes sense now.

[cavokblues]

Isn't this just the old airline getting the slots back as per the grandfathering rights?

The old airline's OL still hasn't been revoked as the appeal is still awaiting its outcome so it would make sense that they have been awarded the slots?

I would be very surprised if any new version of the airline would want to launch on those routes!

[ATNotts]

I agree, jumping into the bear pit that is Scotland / London domestics without codeshare / interlining arrangements up against BA that will be aggressively pricing when eventually the world reopens would be total folly. Of course the slots don't have to be used for the rotes specified, but I am struggling to work out which routes Flybe2 could possibly make work from LHR, except NQY or EXT, even perhaps LPL but that would be extremely iffy given the rail links to the capital.

There are probably many "safer" routes from the UK regions to mainland Europe that I would have thought they would be considering before LHR.

[SKOJB]

SOU-CDG immediately springs to mind and has yet to be taken up

[ATNotts]

Perhaps EXT or CWL CDG as well. BHX to STR/LYS/TXL/HAJ/BER, not sure if BHX to NOC has been taken up yet either. Then EDI/GLA to EMA used to do reasonably well, but to do that they would need a base in either of the Scottish airports or EMA, and I just can't see the latter happening unless they believe EMA/CDG is worth a shot again. I'm sure that as part of the purchase they bought the detailed analysis of what worked and what didn't under the old regime and if they try to start what were financial holes again they'll go down the same pan as Flybe Mk.1.

There are niches but it will have to be slow and steady on a "big bang" approach as I really doubt the owners pockets are going to be deep enough to support too many new or restarted routes in one hit.

[BA318]

If every route Flybe served was as successful and profitable as people on here claim they wouldn’t be gone.

It’s madness for new Flybe to launch LHR-Scotland routes as its first operation and a sure fire way to burn millions.

They are not going to make money either by spreading themselves all over the place with one plane here and one there. Post Covid I’d go for smaller bases offering key routes along with more leisure focused in the in between. Basically go for the BA Cityflyer approach. LCY might be a good shout. Their ops are massively down so might be a good opportunity for a good deal and still plenty of gaps in services from there. Few French routes, northern Spain, Scandinavia. All good opportunities.

Becoming a feeder airline for Star Alliance at LHR isn’t going to work. Flybe1 failed trying it. BMI didn’t succeed doing it. Virgin couldn’t make it work.

[toledoashley]

I absolutely agree - trying to play the connection card at Heathrow and Manchester doesn't sound like a sound model. Agree with LCY and maybe places like SOU, EXE, NWI, DSA where there are gaps for an airline with smaller aircraft. France would surely be on the cards, maybe Holland, Germany, ski flights to Switzerland (Berne?) and as you said, Northern Spain.

[caaardiff]

CWL is crying out for someone to cover EDI, DUB, CDG and JER. Given the Welsh Government and CWL were willing to fork out for Project blackbird, and CWL-EDI has regularly been noted as one of the biggest Ex Flybe routes still not taken up, I'm sure a deal can be done. The issues before were they were operated by the Embraer at probably too high frequencies to protect the yield (sometimes 3 daily).

[SWBKCB]

Do I still get £200 when I pass go, or are we playing a different game? :ok:

[OzzyOzBorn]

toledoashley

Connecting traffic was 'icing on the cake' for FlyBe at MAN. P2P was the higher volume 'bread and butter'. Plenty of P2P business still to compete for in that market. Probably an element of interline business as an incremental top-up too. But P2P demand will determine whether any revised business model will stand or fall at MAN.

[D9009]

Connecting only works if you can keep to schedule.

[BACsuperVC10]

ATNotts

LHR-LPL could be good if we get out of the covid crisis and UK bound tourism returns. The city is a big tourist destination for overseas visitors, however can't see many purely domestic passengers now as the train is so fast. Or LPL-CDG is available as EasyJet appear to have suddenly dropped it.

[cavokblues]

Surely some opportunities at East Midlands to Amsterdam, Glasgow, Edinburgh? Even down to Newquay etc.

I wouldn't want to go into a price war with another airline or against the train at the moment in this environment, that could be a blood bath.

[BHX5DME]

I am hoping that BHX will be their main focus and main base as so many unserved routes and BHX was their biggest base.

[davidjohnson6]

BHX5DME - would the fact that you live in/near Bimringham have anything to do with your preference of BHX as Flybe's main focus ?

[Jamie2009]

Defo, was the most profitable base with lots of Dash engineers plus it had a hangar.....

I wouldn’t put cash on Exeter as the HQ but who knows

[Albert Hall]

From the little I'm hearing, BHX5DME may well get their wish. It sounds as though BHX is going to be the HQ and the largest single base. EXT doesn't seem to feature at all. Don't know routes before anyone asks!

[Rivet Joint]

Amazing to see some of the suggestions on here like CWF, EMA, NQY etc. There is a reason regional flights have never worked from these airports and the more BE got involved with them the more it tipped them over the edge. If they had any sense they would go back to key bases when they arrived on the scene like BHX, SOU, EXT etc and just grow them. You don’t need to open up routes from more than one airport in a region. Air Baltic have shown what you can achieve by building bases at 3 less fashionable bases around a single fleet type. When BE were most successful it was because their fleet was just the q400 with the odd cheap 146 on top.

if they want to be ambitious then they should mirror David Neeleman’s business model and serve secondary cities that the big boys will never touch. Last time I checked his record of Westjet, JetBlue and Azul isn’t bad evidence of this business model. Watch his new airline Breeze be another success. Alas the mystery 20 A220 order was yet more for Breeze, now 80 in total on order. No reason someone in Europe could not copy this model. Not saying BE are the ones that are going to do it though. Personally I think something stinks about the whole thing but I wish them luck as they did serve a purpose that remains unfulfilled.

[cavokblues]

Problem is most of their key routes at their old key bases at Southampton, Exeter and Brum have been snapped up by competitors.

What are these secondary routes where you think they might be successful? I personally would have said Flybe operated a lot of secondary routes last time out.

I'm genuinely fascinated to see what their proposed new operation will look like.

[irishlad06]

After BHX, BHD was one of the more profitable bases however a lot of the routes from BHD have been snapped up already, granted not at the frequency that flybe flew but it would still act as a barrier to entry. There is still some potential - Manchester was 7/8 per day at its best along with BHX 7/8 per day. LCY finished up at 7 per day and apparently the most profitable route on the network as they had a load of contracts on the route. You were unable to get a seat on the day for anything under £400 on way on most occasions. (Weekends were quieter)

[cumbrianboy]

The EI regional base at BHD will give a decent schedule, MAN will be 5 a day for example, and now BA Cityflyer on LCY. You really can't judge the current frequencies against what FlyBe did in 2019 as COVID is the reason the flights are not running, I really do think from May 17th, and more so from June that there will be a ramp up in both flights and more importantly passenger numbers ...

there are still big gaps left in many ex FlyBe bases, even some of the ones people dismiss like CWL and DSA, FlyBe in those bases doing sunshine routes was always questionable, but I hear some of the key regional routes (like AMS, BHD etc) did well for them.

[BHX5DME]

I think FlyBe2 will be BHX/MAN and maybe SOU bases to start with

[ATNotts]

cavokblues

That would be a good strategy.

[Plane mad 134]

Well at this moment, it actually looks like EDI/ABZ will be 2 of the bases. They received the slots for EDI/ABZ-LHR and that will need at least a based aircraft at each.

[ETOPS]

at least a based aircraft at each.

Nope - BHX EDI is unserved thus aircraft and crews can be rotated in and out W style by operating that route.

[cavokblues]

Plane mad 134

Not so sure they have. The old airline won grandfathering rights and because the decision to revoke the OL has been appealed it's yet to be revoked. Therefore, it's my understand it's the old airline which has the slots, not the new airline.

They might still get them but that depends on how their appeal goes.

[bean]

Completely wrong. New Flybe now has the slots

[Albert Hall]

Bean, that’s not completely true either. It has the summer slots. It has yet to obtain the winter season slots.

[fjencl]

Any jobs getting advertised yet ?

[devon_guy]

They're advertising for CC based in Edinburgh.

[Whispering Giant]

Devonguy, Having seen the online advert, I don’t think it is a genuine advert, as it refers to a online portal on the website to apply and currently their is no online portal on the website as the website says coming soon, also the former COO sent out a message earlier this year to say that they had become aware of a Fake advert asking for Cabin crew applications for Edinburgh and a couple of other former Flybe bases.
As far as I’m aware they still aren’t recruiting yet.

[cavokblues]

I've just read the CAA's revoke decision again.

My understanding from that document is the EU considers the new Flybe as a legal continuation of the old Flybe, hence why they have the grandfathering rights and the slots. But that decision seems very much dependent on them winning their appeal against the decision by the CAA to revoke the OL. If they lose it then the CAA say as much in their appeal that slots cannot be transferred. The CAA also appear to say they've had assurances from the administrators no tickets will be sold etc until the issue is resolved. Whether that holds any sway now parts of the company have been sold I'm unsure!

I'm no legal expert whatsoever, just trying to work out what is going on! Interesting to see what happens from here....

[Dorking]

Anybody know when the outcome of that appeal is likely to be known?

[devon_guy]

Whispering Giant

Ahh ok, thanks for the info. I did think it seemed a bit odd.

[Whispering Giant]

Looks like an interesting new development with the new Flybe being reported on CH aviation news that the CEO has left Thyme Opco. This is either a new development or CH Aviation news have only just realised that Lucian Farrell resigned from it several months ago.

[commit aviation]

From the CAA website: " Decision 1/2021
Operating and Route Licences of FBE Realisations 2021 Limited (formerly Flybe Limited Company Number 02769768 (tel:02769768) – Decision to Revoke by CAA. This decision has been up held by the Secretary of State for Transport

Note that the above decision does not affect the licences held by Flybe Limited (formerly Thyme OpCo Limited Company Number 12875147) "

I'm no expert but I would take it that the new company is not directly affected as it has a separate AOC but does not have rights to the old company slot portfolio. Whether the new co is viable without those slots will no doubt become apparent based on whether they push forward or not.

[biddedout]

It just looks like an administrative tidying up exercise to me. I guess the rights to slots went across to the new company as part of the deal between Thyme and Flybe Ltd in Administration (EY). I don't think the Sec of State is involved in approving individual slot pairs as it is all done through ACL but presumably they will have to get flown on once things start moving again in order to keep them alive.

[Atlantic Explorer]

Then why go through the appeal process with the CAA if it doesn’t matter?

[Albert Hall]

It just looks like an administrative tidying up exercise to me.

I think there is much more to it than that. Apologies if I do not get this 100% right and start some "fake news", but here's how I believe it to be.

To complete the full shift of Old Flybe assets and slots into New Flybe, there had to be a period where both companies held their licences. This had to last beyond 3 June as that's the date on which winter slot allocations are given out by slot coordinators. The CAA / Shapps decision to revoke Old Flybe's licences means that this parallel running now can't happen and so the winter slots of Old Flybe have lapsed and can't be obtained then moved across to New Flybe. The CAA is almost at pains in its announcement to differentiate between New Flybe (Flybe Limited) and Old Flybe (FBE Realisations 2021).

The timing of the announcement on 3 June may be a coincidence but it certainly does not look like one.

New Flybe has an Operating Licence and could start commercial flights tomorrow if it wanted to. What's changed on the back of the CAA decision is that it now hasn't got the winter season slots of Old Flybe - it would have to go get its own slots.

New Flybe is just as able to start flying as it was before. But it has lost the benefit of Old Flybe's slots, and so I guess if this was a really a "slot play" as has been suggested, we'll now see for sure. Slots aren't exactly hard to come by at most regional airports if it is genuinely serious about starting as a UK regional airline, so time will soon tell.

[cavokblues]

The old Flybe was granted grandfathering rights for the Heathrow slots last summer but as they've now lost the license I think the slots will also disappear. As far as I know, the new airline did not have any rights to those slots. They were awarded to an airline which, legally, still had an operating license until yesterday. The CAA were assured no tickets would be sold until the appeal outcome was decided.

As Albert Hall says, it really is now that we will see the true intentions of the airline.

[willy wombat]

Well I’ve always been open about my view that this was just a slot play. My guess is that, in due course, new Flybe will announce that of course it was never about slots but sadly due to the pandemic lasting longer than they expected, etc etc, they have decided not to proceed further. On the other hand, if new Flybe actually starts operating scheduled services I will eat my proverbial hat.

[CabinCrewe]

if there was any time to take advantage of domestic routes such as theirs in the current circumstances, it would be now. With no sign if it, this is not going to come to anything or end well if it does.
The flying public would be hesitant unless there was a rename and rebrand.
Shame as they did offer useful routes, but perhaps just not profitably!

[cavokblues]

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2021/06/06/shapps-stops-hedge-fund-boss-cashing-flybes-heathrow-slots/

Grant Shapps has intervened to prevent a Mayfair hedge fund manager from cashing in on take off and landing slots at Heathrow owned by Flybe worth tens of millions of pounds.
The Transport Secretary supported a decision by the Civil Aviation Authority to revoke Flybe’s operating licence on Thursday.
Had the decision not been rubber-stamped, Lucien Farrell of Cyrus Capital would have been free to transfer slots at Heathrow airport to a new *company hoping to resurrect the Flybe brand after June 3.
Mr Farrell – whose friends include Ben Elliot, the nephew of the Duchess of Cornwall and co-chairman of the Conservative Party – could then have sold seven pairs of slots, which prior to the pandemic changed hands for up to $74m (£52m) each. They are still believed to be worth about £10m despite the impact of coronavirus.
Flybe collapsed into administration in March 2020 with the loss of 2,000 jobs. Cyrus previously owned the *carrier alongside Sir Richard Branson’s Virgin Atlantic and what was called *Stobart Group, the owner of Southend *Airport.
Cyrus acquired the airline’s assets last autumn through a new company called Thyme Opco. The company said that it aimed to restore regional air links and help the British economy recover, but it faced a key hurdle in gaining an operating licence.
The slots in question were handed to Flybe under “remedy” procedures aimed at preventing British Airways from dominating the market.
When Flybe failed, the slots were allocated back to BA last summer. Flybe still had the right to access them – but only if the airline had a operating licence after June 3. At this point, Mr Farrell could have sold them on.

ecause it was in administration, Flybe’s operating licence was revoked by the Civil Aviation Authority in February. But the revocation was not official until the decision was confirmed by Mr Shapps.
Although Thyme Opco has been granted an operating licence, this does not entitle it to take over the Flybe remedy slots at Heathrow. Lawyers working for the administrator EY told regulators in February that “the slots are essential to the business”.
It is understood that Thyme Opco, now called Flybe Limited, has been awarded separate but less valuable slots at Manchester and Birmingham *airports.
A spokesman for EY said: “The decision will not impact the wider administration or the sale of the company’s business or assets to the purchaser, Flybe Limited, formerly known as Thyme Opco Limited. The new entity, Flybe Limited, is independently and separately licensed by the Civil Aviation Authority, and will continue to hold a valid and active licence.”
Industry watchers remain sceptical however of Flybe’s chances of returning to the skies.
The airline, Europe’s biggest regional carrier, was perennially loss-making and suffered from customers being charged twice for air passenger duty when flying return journeys on domestic UK routes.
This made it difficult to compete with other modes of transport such as trains. Cyrus Capital declined to comment.

[134brat]

If there is any value left in these slots their value should be realised and used to pay creditors and to support the BRAL pensioners.

Meanwhile, back in the real world. ....

[southamptonavgeek]

I'm not mentioning the 'slot grab' possibility here as nothing is certain...

...but have the Birmingham and Manchester slots been reported prior to this?

[BA318]

The ACL S21 Declaration has this for Flybe at Manchester. Nothing is listed for Birmingham.

“Flybe CHANGE All slots remain for S21 whilst final decision is made on Flybe's operating licence which is revoked but still valid to hold slots.”

otherwise I don’t think we’ve had any information on potential routes until now.

[airspeed75]

So from what I understand reading the above fairly reliably sourced journalism aka the telegraph (as reliable as can be on here) - which isn't going to just make up that Shapps has intervened - is that we are now at a major point where it will become apparent or not whether it was all a slot play?

Reading that it seems any chance of FlyBe 2 getting the slots from FlyBe 1 are dead in the water, meanwhile there are slots allocated to Flybe 2 from MAN/BHX which are currently not in use with no restart in sight whatsoever publicly as we charge full steam ahead into a domestic stay-cation summer?

If it is indeed a real endeavor whatsoever then where are they? Have they realised Covid has killed the industry? Has anyone had eyes on that dash 8 registered to them?

Or has it all died a death?

[BusterHot]

I think you’ve probably answered your own question.

[SKOJB]

Not going to happen and was a slot/money grab all along!

[EGTE]

The Dash 8 G-CLXC is sat outside the Exeter Aerospace hangar looking rather unloved.

[allan1987]

​​​​​​Looks to be just make money back that lost from Flybe, just have now slots in Man and Bhx and UK AOC, possibly will be sold to someone as could be to a small Irish airline.... Or just closed down

[Albert Hall]

I think there are still a few things going on - this is not yet the end of the chapter for Flybe 2, and I'm led to believe that they are quite happy for everyone to believe that it's dead as they keep working in the background. Only time will tell if that work comes to something.

And on the loose subject of Flybe, TAP Air Portugal has a new CEO from later this month - a French lady recently of the parish of Clyst Honiton.

[willy wombat]

Re new TAP CEO. Are you serious?

[Back at NH]

“France’s Christine Ourmières-Widener will take the helm of Portuguese airline TAP at the group’s next general assembly to be held on June 24, AFP learned from the Portuguese government on Wednesday.”

[JobsaGoodun]

..although it looks like an Exec Chair role for a 3yr term 2021-24 rather than CEO

[BA318]

willy wombat

https://econews.pt/2021/06/04/christine-ourmieres-widener-is-the-french-manager-that-will-lead-tap/

[AirLCY]

Interesting CEO choice!

[allan1987]

BA is leasing 86 weekly LHR slots to Flybe use on routes to ABZ and EDI, For Winter 2021
https://www.acl-uk.org/completed-slot-trades/?toAirline=Flybe

[Albert Hall]

As I suspected, it's not dead. Yet. But:

- this is a slot lease and not a transfer
- you can't sell something that you lease
- with no slot waiver confirmed for Winter 2021/22, they will have to fly at least something if they are to use the slots

[AirUK]

That Dash 8 will be working hard…

[BusterHot]

Well it might not be totally dead, but Covid 19 aside, who in their right mind would launch an airline heading towards the winter? And where are the crews being re-hired and trained, and aeroplanes being prepared? You can’t run W patterns into Heathrow or anywhere else, using one knackered Dash8.

Cyrus Capital are not the regional airline White Knight that some people think they are. I don’t know the exact figure but in conjunction with both Virgin and Stobart, they pumped in £100 million (apparently, although I’m sure some will dispute that exact figure, but that’s not the point). They’re a Finance Company, there to make money and you can “bet your bottom dollar” that they want to claw as much of their investment back, make a bit more if they can and then sell it on and head off into the sunset.

If anyone is bored, have a quick scan of Tom Bower’s book on Branson and you’ll see Cyrus were involved with Virgin America, and they didn’t last too long did they? So whilst things might be bubbling away in the background, and I know they are, the whole thing looks pretty clueless in the present climate.

[BusterHot]

And as for C O-W heading to TAP, hahahahahaha!
Good luck with that.

[ETOPS]

Flybe advertising today "urgently" for a cabin crew training manager based BHX - 5 day week and remote working. I guess that's because they don't have an office yet!

[fjencl]

How do we know it's Flybe. It didn't say Flybe in the advert when I saw it. Perhaps you have inside info .....

[Jamie2009]

Look at the job spec for the airport managers role, it says Flybe and even states growing to 1500 employees in the next 24 to 36 months.

Search direct appointments on LinkedIn

[Expressflight]

Indeed it does say Flybe. I'm more optimistic that something may come of this than I was a day or two back.

[Whispering Giant]

They must have realised that it inadvertently stated Flybe, and have now uploaded a newer one that doesn’t mention the airline name and just mentions a NEW airline

[BOHEuropean]

The job advert for "Head of Airport Operations and Cargo" still says: "Leading and providing clarity of Flybe's vision, prioritizing resources, expectations, and commitment to working together to build solid partnerships within our network."

[cavokblues]

After the sad news about Stobart today perhaps a few opportunities for any new prospective regional UK airline from Belfast.....?

[BA318]

Indeed a good chance but also a demonstration of how hard it will be to succeed. Even with a decent reputation and using a major carrier’s systems they failed.

[ATNotts]

Indeed, but at least it puts to bed the "slot grab" hypothesis. If they are basing at BHX I wonder what sweeteners they have got from the airport, and which routes they are looking to serve, or resurrect from the "old Flybe". I reckon the demise of Stobart has probably come a few months to early to enable the new business to capitalise from, but I may provide a larger pool of aviation professionals from which to recruit. An ill wind and all that!

[fjencl]

Shouldn't be to long now then before they advertise for flight deck and cabin staff.
unless they have to offer the staff they let go the jobs first. Or does that not have to happen. Just wondering

[ETOPS]

That would be sTUPEndous :ok:

[jamestkirk]

COW at TAP!

Maybe TAP want to go under.

[Jamie2009]

This thread has died a death. I think the slot grab chat can be put to bed given the number of head office roles they’re recruiting for at BHX.

[Alteagod]

Or just put to bed tbh

[fjencl]

Jamie2009

How many head office roles.

[airspeed75]

Jamie2009

Can you point me in the direction of these roles being advertised?

[Jamie2009]

Look at direct appointments ltd on LinkedIn- some are no longer advertised.

[Buster the Bear]

https://airwaysmag.com/airlines/former-flybe-head-tap-ceo/

[fanrailuk]

There was absolutely no hope…

[southamptonavgeek]

Looks like quite a lot of applications were received.

[BA318]

Given how many people have lost their jobs and are furloughed are you surprised? There’s obviously a lot of ex-aviation staff out there who would love to get back into the sector.

[SealinkBF]

Buster the Bear

Look out TAP!

[TOM100]

According to their Linkdin post

[Buster the Bear]

SealinkBF

This bear was certainly perplexed!

[fjencl]

Any news about how things are progressing for the new flybe, anymore jobs advertised or aircraft added to the fleet, is there any news of any bases being set up apart from Birmingham ?

[ATNotts]

I would be amazed if they started with more than one base; having bases across so many airports probably didn't help the cause of the old Flybe! I would have thought slow and steady will win the race, if indeed they can win the race (to profitability).

[Whispering Giant]

The PSO route from NQY to London has opened for bids again, for when the current operator BA finishes the service again from October. I would be surprised in the New Flybe didn’t put in a bid for it, as it was very successful for them,for a good number of years.

[RVF750]

The bases, aircraft and crews were not what did for the old Flybe. It was the excessive aircraft leases carried over from the old Walker Trust days that dragged it down. Remember that. Other than that it was a pretty efficient and happy company. Just held down by that millstone round their necks.

[Flightrider]

If believing that helps you come to terms with the loss of Flybe, then crack on. It isn’t true, but if helps you sleep better at night, good on you.

[Rivet Joint]

I see COW is now in charge of TAP! Are you absolutely kidding me?:eek:

[Buster the Bear]

I am surprised there was not more comment when I posted a link to this a month ago.

[willy wombat]

Well I’ll give you a comment. I see that she is using her new position to urge parents to not just give girls toys, but to give them things like LEGO as well (see Flight Global). I have no problem with the idea of encouraging more females into the industry but I would have thought that there might just be some more pressing issues to deal with at the moment. I have met COW and it is a mystery to me how she lands these jobs.

[BA318]

Indeed COW has a bad enough record without the need to get vulgar or personal. Cityjet was loss making under her, VLM was bought and disappeared and Flybe collapsed. TAP has been continually loss making too so I’m sure she’ll feel right at home.

Back on to the thread topic have there been any further updates on Flybe? Does anyone know if the recruitment has gone anywhere?

[TartinTon]

Looks like things are starting to warm up at Flybe. Commercial roles starting to be recruited now. I've seen a Revenue Management and Pricing exec role and a Network Planning exec role in the last 2 days.

[Jamie2009]

From the role profiles advertised on linkedin

Treating every pound as our own and building an amazing profitable business together

Sounds like keeping costs down and going after the competition to me, Will be interesting to see what happens and if Easy/Logan/Jet2 or Eastern are prepared or even capable of entering a price battle. Can’t see Easy doing so as they’d struggle to fill their planes anyway and jet2 are only competing on the Jersey Route and can’t stop in Guernsey.

This could turn ugly.

[SWBKCB]

What do you expect them to say? Saying is one thing, doing another

[stewyb]

You can imagine easyJet and Jet2 are absolutely petrified!🤦‍♂️

[speedrestriction]

"Going after the competition" should be a long way down the list of priorities for a new airline. No.1 is undoubtedly setting up a safe operation. Following that will be things like brand awareness, load factor, yield management, cost management etc and basically trying to make sure that the boat doesn't sink before it clears the harbour breakwater. "Going after the competition" may be possible but is something waaaay out over the horizon. As they say: you must learn to walk before you can run. All the other companies you have mentioned Jamie have proven business models are established in their markets.

[Albert Hall]

The only rumour I'm hearing is of some focus by the new Flybe on Amsterdam. I am beginning to wonder if Jamie's oft-stated prediction of a battle within the UK regional sector is wishful thinking for some reason rather than a reality!

[fjencl]

Perhaps cabin crew and flight deck vacancies will be advertised in due course then ?

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

Just for the record, LinkedIn has some good quotes :

Exeter based flybe still claimes to be "Europe's largest regional airline" and then goes onto say "Subject to further success with vaccinations and relaxation of travel restrictions, we plan to launch a new and improved Flybe on many of our former routes where there remains a critical need for a strong, reliable, and customer-focused airline. "
It goes on :
"We are on a journey as a new company, taking the much loved flybe brand into a new era.
Putting our customers and colleagues at the heart of everything we do.
Our motto is "smile and go the extra mile", putting our heart and soul into all we do.
We are in the business of serving the demand for faster and easier connections, in a friendly, responsible and sustainable way.
Our talented colleagues are the key to our success and future amibtions, come and join our hard-working and fun-loving family."

It's still the same branding so looks like a straight relaunch.

[davidjohnson6]

Marketing speak that incorporates references to the old company sounds to me like senior management are in denial about the past
Pan Am, with all its accrued goodwill over tge years, tried to relaunch after it first went bust. It didn't work.

[Atlantic Explorer]

Dear god, who comes up with this nauseating drivel? I’m really not convinced by all this.

[SWBKCB]

Glad you said that - thought it was just me being a grumpy old man...

[ATNotts]

Clearly one of the first appointments was Head of Marketing!!

[Jamie2009]

https://www.insider.co.uk/news/airlines-biggest-enemy-themselves-loganair-24649581

Already started… and then throw Flybe into the mix.

Cyrus are not investing for just a couple of Dash flying around. HQ clearly moving to BHX which is strategically better.

Easy and Jet2 aren’t going to be crapping themselves your right…. but their aircraft aren’t suited to those routes. When things pick up they’ll move them to more profitable routes. (https://www.insider.co.uk/news/airlines-biggest-enemy-themselves-loganair-24649581)

[Albert Hall]

I had seen that article pop up on Google alerts but inferred that he was having a thinly-disguised pop at EasyJet - not the new Flybe?

[Rivet Joint]

I’m amazed by the lack of discussion on COW landing a new well paid position at a much larger airline. She’s basically ended up moving up in the world despite being a massive failure whilst 100s of ex BE staff are probably still unemployed or working low skilled jobs to pay the bills as a result of her being asleep at the wheel. I know there is a lot of corruption in the world but seems daft to be debating about the non event which is the prospect of BE ever returning when a huge bombshell has just been dropped with her new role. If anyone was done in this business it should be her, not the staff who are out of work through no fault of their own. Funny old thread this.

[TartinTon]

Why amazed Rivet Joint? COW is old news as far as Flybe is concerned. The fact that she's landed a new job is irrelevant when it comes to Flybe. The fact that she has a track record of decimating airlines has no bearing on the new Flybe.

[BA318]

Rivet Joint

It’s not really amazing. It’s the corporate/political world today. How often do CEOs announce huge losses and then get bonuses or walk into other well paid jobs. Or MPs/Minister who failed miserably and resign then walk in to nice directorships etc.

She alone wasn’t responsible for Flybe’s downfall. She didn’t help but it was a mess for years.

[cavokblues]

I'm loath to defend COW as she was misguided and focusing on the wrong priorities but I do agree with BA318, the rot was well and truly in place before her reign.

The company was bleeding cash for a decade, only making profit when they managed to flog some slots at other airports. They had no control over their fleet due to historic lease agreements etc so it was a choice of watching a plane burn cash sat on the ground or flying a plane on a loss making route hoping it somehow doesn't lose quite as much.

[jensdad]

Re the 'much-loved flybe brand': Just my two penn'orth, but I never had anything but good experiences with flybe; even on one trip when things went wrong through no fault of theirs, their service was great.
Just one person's opinion I know, but I do suspect that there will still be a lot of goodwill out there for the company and the brand. I've always had good experiences with Loganair as well, but I longingly remember when I could get from Newcastle to Guernsey or Devon (a couple of my favourite places in these isles) for a fraction of what I'd have to pay now!

And I've said it on here before, but whoever came up with the 'flybe' name, and didn't see that the first smarta*se who got delayed by 10 minutes would christen them 'flymaybe', shouldn't be in marketing. Don't have the figures to hand but I'm sure there were several years in a row they had the best On-Time Performance for any airline at Newcastle.

[Wycombe]

Just one person's opinion I know

You're not the only one, I always had a good experience, the people at the coalface were great. Sorely let down by what appears to have been very poor senior management.