Flybe-V1

[southamptonavgeek]

They hold an AOC in the name of Thyme Opco Limited, number 2470. I believe G-CLXC was used to gain approval last March.

[Expressflight]

Well spotted.

[ETOPS]

First aircraft G-JECX delivered to EXT yesterday 5th Nov 2021


https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/586x375/image_297e4ccfa025fd5c16c15c574c39f4881f471462.png

[southamptonavgeek]

G-JECP is the next Q400 as per https://jethroseu.co.uk/fleets/fleet_listings/flybe_ltd.html

[Eejit]

Is it just coincidental that the first two airframes painted in the 'new' Flybe scheme happen to be the two that received substantial damage in previous landing incidents with the original Flybe?

[MARK 101]

Can't understand how this new Flybe is spending loafs on aircraft and staff etc ,yet still no start up date or route information. Given there is a lead in time for bookings to come in surely an announcement needs to come soon purely to start generating some cash from advance bookings. You can't just keep spending with no income

[BA318]

Guess it depends how deep their pockets are. Obviously the more cash spent at the start is less available when it’s running if things don’t go according to the plans.

[scr1]

Or how much tax you want to wright off

[ATNotts]

Businesses only pay tax on profits, and they are not likely in FY 1.

[dc9-32]

They might not need to advertise this early as they may already have an ACMI contract lined up.

[runawayedge]

Can't see how any UK airline will have an ACMI requirement for winter 21/22, and that's before considering IOSA, quality audits etc. Even if they were on sale they wouldn't see much cash until they commence revenue flying due merchant agreements. In any event I suspect the booking profile on a domestic network only kicks in from c. -90 days so plenty of time for an S22 launch. Closing out airport agreements should be the current priority.

[Curious Pax]

Doubt the Dash 8 that was delivered to Exeter would have sported the new Flybe colours if it was going to be used for an ACMI contract.

[allan1987]

Wonder if its possbily not the one in EXT but in NRN and could be used on an UK Regional Airline? So the Airline can free up one their planes for an PSO route?

[RogueOne]

runawayedge

Maybe it's not about making a huge profit initially, or huge ticket sales. What if regular guaranteed flying can also be used to recertify flight crews (thereby not having to do it in empty planes) back onto the line again? Things aren't always as they seem. If ACMI flying and contracts have been worked on behind the scenes ready to go at a given time, a small number of crew, with more filtering in to get current, bodes well for a larger ramp up of operations.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

Maybe it's not about making a huge profit initially, or huge ticket sales.
Finally, something we can all agree on!

[runawayedge]

RogueOne

If you refer back to my post I never mentioned 'huge profits initially or huge ticket sales', unlikely both will ever happen, and I also agreed that there was no urgency to be on sale. My question was which UK airline is going to have an ACMI requirement this winter and secondly if they did would they select a start up airline without IOSA? Maybe the alleged guaranteed flying is a PSO, though I somehow doubt it! Good luck to them if they manage to pull a rabbit from the hat!

[Albert Hall]

I have to say that I don't understand why everyone is getting so worked up (and I also can't actually understand what one post is trying to say).

The only PSO up for grabs is Newquay and that has apparently been awarded to Eastern (and best of luck to both of them with that one) with an announcement imminent.

The wet-lease market is all but dead and if any airline does get itself into major issues with crewing etc, they are far more likely to cancel flights and reduce their schedule in today's weak demand environment to mitigate whatever problem they have before they'll ever opt for a wet-lease.

If as rumoured a February start is in prospect, I'd have thought we will not have long to wait to find out what Flybe 2.0 is planning.

[Jamie2009]

Feb-Apr would be my guess, must be ready to announce the launch soon now CX is in the uk and in the new paint job with other dash being prepared at MST.
Suppose once they announce the launch and routes/times /prices it gives the competition time to respond and counter them with actual flights from an operating airline.

Still this isn’t Cyrus’s first rodeo and they must have a pretty solid plan. I bet they launch with cheap as chips flights so the competing airlines have to swallow a painful price reduction in their offerings.

[BA318]

I would imagine flights will need to start by S22 launch otherwise they will lose slots they hold (at slot constrained airports) unless the waiver is extended.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

By "painful price reduction" you mean drop to loss making levels? "Cheap as chips"'isn't an option on a 20 year old 74 seat Q400, it doesn't have the CASM of an A320 which is the reason why no locos operate anything that small. High frequency regional turboprop flying has to survive on it's own fare structure and high volume low pricing isn't an option and low volume, low pricing won't make you any money.
They're going to have to compete on reliability and frequency rather than price IMHO.

[jensdad]

Really surprised that there has been no mention of Exeter being a base. I was there on Wednesday and what a sad place it is these days - as far as I could make out there were only two pax flights in and out all day. I know that no airline is a charity (and yes, I have been watching the news the last 20 months) but the southwest seems to be the big missing link in the UK's connectivity drive. No substantial international flights from anywhere west of Bristol (TUI's 737 was sat on the ground all day). The thousands of folks who flew from there every week on Flybe Mk.1 are still there.

[ETOPS]

no mention of Exeter being a base

It was a major pain having the headquarters, sims etc stuck down there. The cost of shuttling all the regional crews back and forth with nightstop costs was part of the financial problems of Flybe 1.0

[willy wombat]

Maybe, but if you’re going to run an operation with multiple crew bases, which was the Flybe 1 model, you’re going to have to put your training facility, sims etc somewhere and crews from the other bases are going to have to travel.

I have to admit to be bemused by the current Flybe 2 situation. I know I have previously shouted “slot scam” and it doesn’t obviously appear to be that at the moment but I can’t get my head round why people would currently put money into a UK regional start up where, with the best will in the world, returns will at best be minimal (particularly considering the lost opportunity cost - i.e. what else they could do with the money). I feel I’m missing something.

[tallaonejuliet]

Wonder if Cyrus will fill the hole in my BRAL pension once they get up and running?:mad:

[davidjohnson6]

Would a training / simulator facility somewhere near Birmingham airport have worked better for Flybe v1 ?

[cavokblues]

As mentioned above, crew still have to travel wherever it is. I've worked for London based operators who put you in a taxi and hotel for a sim near Gatwick airport (a journey of just an hour or so from your base airport) so I'm not sure what cost saving there is having a sim closer to home vs having to position crew on one of your flights.

[cavokblues]

willy wombat

I'm certainly also intrigued as to what their intentions are and where they feel they can make a profit. I know Cyrus are involved but they simply will not make the returns they did on Virgin America which, in 2015 had a profit margin of 22% versus turnover. In the few years recently where Flybe 1.0 did make profit recently they had about a 1% and 2.7% return. Loganair in 2019 made 0.84% profit on turnover. I just don't see it being some lucrative money pit that Cyrus can flip in a few years. There might be a slim profit to be made with a tightly run ship and well focused brand, but IMO they'll face the same issues as before. If any route is making cash an easyJet or Ryanair will jump in and see them off leaving them in a fight on the likes of Norwich - Exeter with Loganair and already paltry returns being divided even further.

[davidjohnson6]

Cavok - you know that, I know that, but do Cyrus know that ? You would be surprised how little industry knowledge there can sometimes be in venture capital investors

[BA318]

Perhaps they are going for the Uber approach. It needs deep pockets and I’m not sure the end goal is worth it but basically offer cheap fares, drive the competition out and then raise your fares once you’re the monopoly.

[Jamie2009]

From the latest job advert on LinkedIn

Have you heard yet? We are a major brand within the UK and, following a short break, we’re returning to the mainstream - and our growth over the coming 4-6 months is going to be HUGE!

and

If you want to be part of this incredibly exciting time and have an impact on a secure and invested start-up organisation, you can apply by sending your CV to [email protected]

I don’t think they intend on just asking nicely for the best of old routes back and I’d be surprised if anyone on a forum (including me) knows more about starting a regional airline than the people pumping the cash in. It will float in a few years and then they’ll see the pay out.
Wasn’t old Flybe pre covid bought for circa 130mil including investment And that business was in a really crap state with a complete turnaround needed and barely breaking even. This smaller targeted new outfit could be worth millions in a couple of years and I think they’ve only pumped in 20mil so far.

[cavokblues]

We will certainly need to see more business acumen at running regional airlines than they demonstrated whilst running the airline for the final 13 months or so of its previous existence. Fundamentally, people are just speculating as to where the money is to be made which will make the company so valuable at a stock market floatation. No one else seems to make any real money flying regionally in the UK. I remember a quote from Saad Hamad saying following the last floatation in 2010 they didn't make another profit again until 2016!

[Albert Hall]

It's good to see some things don't change including Jamie's optimism as the chief cheerleader (and pot stirrer) for Flybe's reincarnation on here!

Unless there is a very radical change in the market between now and that time then the prospect of Flybe being floated is fanciful. From those fairly close to this, a trade sale in a very short space of time (less than two years) sounds to be the agenda. That requires a fleet ramp-up to be able to fly slots and therefore hold them in the absence of a continued Covid-19 slot usage waiver. That isn't my assumption by the way - that's the considered view of some involved in this project since Flybe failed.

Am also hearing rumours that a Manchester base / operation is off the cards as the airport won't play ball?

[davidjohnson6]

Flybe v1 had an awful history for those who bought shares on almost any date after the flotation in 2010. Declining share price, bailouts, desperate sale for peanuts, and eventual bankruptcy

There would need to be a very compelling story as to why anyone (retail or institution) would want to buy shares in a new IPO. A flotation after less than 2 years doesn't seem long enough to show good prospects, especially when aviation has such a poor history for investors. All seems a bit snake oil to me

[southamptonavgeek]

Flybe.com has just been updated. Very interesting is the part of the privacy policy that says "Some of the flights and services that we offer are provided by third parties". Code-sharing agreements already on the table?

Albert Hall

May I ask where you have heard this? As per ACL's allocation report (https://app.powerbi.com/view?r=eyJrIjoiOTMxZTAzNjctZDBiMy00ZmJjLWFlYjEtNjUwNjZkMjIyN zU0IiwidCI6ImJhNzNmYjViLWM1ZWUtNGNiNy04NzFjLWU4YjI0NWQwYjY3Y iJ9), Flybe do hold MAN slots.

[BA318]

Many more parts to an operation than just holding slots. Many airlines are assigned slots and never use them. Norwegian had slots at LHR last year or the year before but never used them and gave them back.

I’d imagine the privacy policy with most eventualities in mind so it doesn’t need to be adjusted every time.

[SWBKCB]

Have you heard yet? We are a major brand within the UK and, following a short break, we’re returning to the mainstream

Presumably this return to the mainstream doesn't stretch to paying outstanding debts?

[ATNotts]

There are no o/s debts! This is a new business, wake up and join the real world of business / capitalism.

It's not right, but how the world works.

[SWBKCB]

Well aware of that - I was referring to the cheeky :mad: and their 'short break'.

[Saabdriver1]

It certainly doesn’t extend to the shortfalls in the BRAL pension suffered by many despite Cyrus taking their payouts from the Flybe administrators as secured creditors. It may be legal but it certainly is not moral.

[Jamie2009]

Albert Hall


I’ll cheerlead anything that gets the former Flybe crews back in the air. Roll on next year.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

ATNotts

Same branding. Same aircraft. Same routes. Same staff. Same callsign! In their own words, "following a short break, returning".
But yeah, not liable for any of the mess they left as that was er.....flybe.
Jamie2009 Did you work for these guys before? Surely you're also out of pocket?

[ATNotts]

It's abhorrent, but why should the new Flybe be lambasted for simply employing the legal framework as countless others across all business sectors have done and continue to.

[SWBKCB]

Why should they be given an easy ride when they've left plenty of people out of pocket and are now pretending nothing happened?

[cavokblues]

Carrying the brand over but probably done enough legally to prevent any TUPE claims from re-hired staff.

[ATNotts]

However, and I appreciate this is a weak defence, they are potentially providing employment in a sector particularly hard hit over the last 18 months.

[BHX5DME]

Hopefully the majority of the roles will be in Birmingham too ;-)

[Saabdriver1]

I don’t think you can even say that with any certainty. If - as one poster frequently suggests - Flybe is going back to its old routes to try to position itself on them, the airlines now flying those routes won’t stand idly by. A short war will ensue, lots of money will be lost and then jobs will be lost at the end of it on one side or the other. Any employment increase will be transient.

[Atlantic Explorer]

Yep, exactly this.
Jamie, you need to take your head out of the clouds and realise exactly what your cheerleading here. If this outfit gets off the ground and does what it says it’s going to do, then there will be considerable impact on the other UK Regional carriers who are desperately trying to eek out a living in the UK market.

What’s your role/ relationship with the new Flybe can I ask?

[OzzyOzBorn]

Those carriers which have stepped in on UK business trunk routes at once daily frequency or less will need to make a choice. Twice daily morning and evening Mon - Fri (allowing for a full business day) is an opportunity for FlyBe 2.0 if the new incumbent(s) don't close that door. Fares are not the only consideration.

[Albert Hall]

I think that applies to only a small number of markets - some of the Belfast flying with BA/EI, MAN-SOU with Eastern, MAN-EXT with Blue Islands and that's really about it. There is a much-changed market for domestic travel patterns and I do have to wonder whether these guys know just how much the landscape has changed during the time they've been out of it.

[Jamie2009]

I'm one of the lucky ones that has a contract to start with the new business and is still owed cash from the old company which I'll never see - I'm fortuntley owed far less than others.
I will not apologise for supporting, championing or cheerleading anyone who is prepared to start a new business that will see the former Flybe crews find themselves back in the clouds, engineering or HQ roles after being made redundant through no fault of their own. It was awful watching the death of old Flybe on twitter that fateful night with seizure notices being attached to aircraft and awaiting the dreaded "you're redundant" email - worrying how to support our families. I recall that night and I tell you what whoever the crew were who took off from EDI or GLA (I can't recall) to LHR last thing nightstopping and knowing it was over should be the first to get their jobs back - they and others had to rely on the charity of hotels and airlines to get back home. The Clayton Hotel at MAN gave my mate his cancelled room for free that night as he was operating away from base and stuck.

Flybe's woes were terrible business decisions that were compounded on and couldn't be easilly shaken off, definitely not the fault of the majority of front line employees or the management at the end (in my view). If Covid hadn't of happened old Flybe would probably still be going but the owners would have needed to pump in far more cash than they envisioned and with mass redundancies.

The market will find its equilibrium. Business is very very cruel but its show business not show friends and some very well run airlines may need to reassess.
Immoral and outrageous some scream... Are BA apologising for taking the covid opportunity to shaft its CC on legacy contracts? Are the airlines who were outraged at the the mere suggestion of Flybe receiving a bailout in 2020 and then taking loans / furlough themselves sorry? What about Loganair trying to stick their ore in at the CAAs meeting regarding old Flybe's OL and RLs? Do you seriously thing Easy will continue domestic flying, supporting the UKs regional connectivity, when they can make more cash from more profitable routes - should we not be outraged that they took advantage of the situation rather than established regional carriers stepping in? What about Eastern basically making their crews fly for next to nothing to keep their business going and keep their jobs? Can’t really feel sorry for the heavily subsidised Channel Islands outfits either.

Theres been loads of negative nonsense spouted on this board from slot grabs, its all a deceitful con which no lease companies will touch from "well placed" unknown sources which have proved to be wrong again and again....It's happening, accept it. This repeating merry-go-round of moral outrage is not going to alter anything - the real question is how airlines deal with the new Flybe.

I can assure you that those joining the new business are not on the contracts they had at the old company - they (we) are also subject to the market adjustment.

This thread should be renamed FBE realisations (old Flybe) and a new one started as the past is done - its the future regional landscape that should be the subject of our discussions.

[cavokblues]

The slot discussion thing was definitely not nonsense. You should read the CAA reports when the OL was revoked. They fought damn hard to keep those slots and have them transferred to the new airline. They weren't successful. But let us not pretend they didn't want them - for what exact reason we will never know now.

I wish the new Flybe well. They're legally entitled to start and fight for their place in the market and the other airlines will have to adjust to compete. I'm just incredibly sceptical as to how successful it will be. People are allowed to speculate on a forum about that and I wouldn't say it's necessarily 'negative nonsense' anymore than I would want to describe posts on the other foot as 'happy clapping.'

[inOban]

There's a problem with the these twice-daily business flights. What do you do with the plane and crew in the middle of the day?

If it's any indication of this day trip business market, I notice that BACF, having had, since September, two 'early bird' flights from EDI to City (only one on Friday ) have in the past week had just one, and none on Friday. Perhaps after a brief flurry of in person meetings, the urge has gone.

[Jamie2009]

Of course they wanted the slots but it wasn’t the be all and end all it was made out to be.

anyway time will tell🤷‍♂️

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

flybe went bust pre-COVID, it's rewriting history to suggest otherwise.

[Jamie2009]

I believe there were 114 cases and a single death in the UK when it went bust. It was in such a bad state of affairs it couldn’t even manage those numbers due to the huge drop off in bookings.

This has gone round in circles about 10 times on this thread and it’s history. It will be interesting to see how it unfolds for all parties involved.

[toledoashley]

It’s very difficult to judge the decisions made in the last throws of the ‘original’ flybe, given the ridiculous number missteps they had taken in the previous 20 years. High debt is a killer for any travel business, and with a clean slate it will be interesting to see whether the model actually works.

[AirportPlanner1]

It went bust pre-lockdown (UK). It was certainly not pre-COVID. By that stage there had already been a catastrophic collapse in bookings with the more fundamental issue of their backers going into their own survival mode. Not to say Flybe would have survived either way, but not for you to re-write history either.

[cavokblues]

They finally went under March 2020 but IIRC they would have gone bust in January 2020 had the government not agreed a bailout. And they probably would have gone bust again in Jan 2019 had Virgin / Connect not stepped in.

They really weren't a viable going concern way before Covid came onto the scene.

[BA318]

In its last 15 years Flybe made a loss more than a profit. On the years that it did make a profit they were small and more than wiped out by the next losses.

Loganair appears to be the only regional carrier which has made money - I assume helped by it’s location and higher number of PSO routes and contracts. Otherwise regional aviation in the UK is not a place to make money. Flybe, Stobart, BMI regional, Air Southwest all gone.

Aurigny is forever loss making. Eastern hasn’t turned a profit for a while. I think Blue Islands is loss making too. So the question is what will Flybe 2 do differently? It isn’t going to make a profit just because it doesn’t have the old leases - don’t forget in the meantime other prices are going up.

And code sharing isn’t going to be a lifesaver. BMI codeshared with half of Heathrow and still died.

[hec7or]

You can add Air Wales, Air UK, Brymon, Manx, British regional Airlines, BA Connect, Gill Airways, and Eurodirect to that list. (British Airways Express too)

[BA318]

Indeed it’s a much longer list even still but I thought I’d stay recent. Perhaps it’s easier to just note the carriers able to survive and why.

[willy wombat]

Just for the record, CityFlyer Express, which was branded British Airways Express, was profitable every year of its existence apart from year one. In fact some years it was extremely profitable. It had a very different business model from Flybe and it also had very competent management.

[Albert Hall]

Jamie, thank you for at least being transparent about your interest.

Even so, I think you are hugely misguided on the prospect of the airline wars that you seem to relish in the postings on here. Wars are very expensive things to fight, as both Flybe and Loganair learned a few years ago.

easyJet had already announced it was going on GLA and EDI-BHX before Flybe 1 collapsed. They presumably did so in the knowledge that they'd be competing with Flybe on those routes, so I cannot see why they would now back away. They were the #1 and #2 routes in Flybe's network. And Flybe 1 was all but bankrupt in January 2020 when it called on the Government for a bail-out but managed to stagger on until March. Covid-19 didn't kill Flybe.

And as for the slots, Cavokblues has it right. They were so essential to Flybe 2 that they fought a CAA legal battle to try to get them. The slots are obviously of great significance to them and none of the speculation has been wildly misplaced. Only time will tell if it actually is!

I cannot see this story having a happy ending

[BusterHot]

Jamie2009

I too used to work for Flybe, so if you’re a pilot I will know you. However, whilst I admire your positivity and wish you well, I have to admit knowing what I do about what’s been going on behind the scenes for the last 18 months, I hope you’ve got a Plan B, because I wouldn’t trust Cyrus as far as I could throw them.

Good luck.

[Jamie2009]

See my post dated the 20/10/2020

However at these times I still think working with Logan Air to supply the UK with essential Regional Connectivity would be better than going after them and better in the eyes of the Politicians/Media.

I may predict a few battles but I don’t relish it

[EI-BUD]

Logical debate here in relation to the viability of Flybe.

​​​​​​A lot can be learned from the US market and the evolution of the airline industry since it's deregulation in about 1978. Things have followed a very similar pattern in Europe. This is characterised by a large decline in the number of airlines, the rise of low cost carriers, ultra low cost carriers and a consolidation of power among a few large carriers. This is exactly happened in Europe. The distinction is the regional airline business.

The regional carriers in the main fly got the network carriers, feeding passengers to the big 3 carrier's hub airports, franchise and ACMI is where it is at. Any regional airline who is to be sustainable needs a niche that is not easily penetratable by a low cost carrier, is supported by government grants or is a unique specialisation.

The gap in the market is ACMI flying under the guise of any major carrier who needs connectivity and frequency. Even serving thinner markets and allowing the legacy carriers to deploy large aircraft where they need them. Cityjet up to the pandemic had made significant progress.

An airline like Flybe needs scale to manage down is unit costs, but it also needs a sustainable competitive advantage and I'm afraid so far this hasn't become apparent to me.
​​​​

[hec7or]

willy wombat
I was flying a Jetstream 31 in 1992 in BA Landor livery with "British Airways Express" painted on the side, nothing to do with CityFlyer, the original AOC for whom was held by Air Europe Express aka Connectair.

British Airways Express never made any money.

[willy wombat]

Not exactly correct. Connectair was sold to ILG (in 1988) and was rebranded Air Europe Express. However during that ownership period in, I think, 1990, Connectair was merged into Air Europe and there was no longer a separate Connectair AOC. In 1991 CityFlyer Express was started from scratch (originally under the name Euroworld). As I said earlier, CirtFlyer Express was profitable every year except year one. All ancient history now.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

"British Airways Express" was the banner under which Loganair, Manx Airlines (Europe), Brymon and Maersk (UK) all flew using their own AOCs. They all made money off and on over the years but it became tougher as easyJet got bigger and you no longer had to pay hundreds of pounds to fly in a propellor driven aircraft! There's a lesson somewhere in there.
I would say the key point is that easyJet and Ryanair etc disrupted the markets the old BA Express operators used to serve. There are still some niche routes that can make money but my goodness the market is fragmented and economies of scale are hard as flybe proved with their base closures.

[hec7or]

Agreed, as Skipness correctly explains, British Airways Express was a completely separate entity to Cityflyer Express who are wholly owned by BA and therefore not a franchise but a sub division, our franchise airline CEO pointed out at the time that the regional product was becoming very difficult for the <70 seat market in the mid 90s as the public were by then able to fly 2hr sectors to the Med for forty quid and this was becoming the norm, while we were still trying to sell flights in the £300 price range for sub 2hr sectors and at the same time, bizarrely, facing competition from BA, the Franchise owner.

The LCCs have now defined the going rate pricewise for short haul and the views of our (ex BA) CEO at the time were that a niche operation, point to point, in the regional market can only survive if there is no competition on a particular route and can set the fares accordingly, BA clearly weren't prepared to compete in that market and sold the remaining franchise, BA Connect, to Flybe.

BA Cityflyer operates mainly out of LCY and thus ticks the no competition box, while the question remains, on which routes will Flybe be able to make money?

[willy wombat]

Actually, I don't fully agree with all the above. 1/ for the sake of getting it right, CityFlyer Express was originally completely privately owned and operated through the 90s as a BA franchisee. It was only sold to BA around 2001 (I am hazy on the dates as the sale was referred to the (then called) MMC and took a considerable time to go through. 2/ CityFlyer demonstrated that it was possible for a regional to go head to head with a loco. the best example being Gatwick Dublin where it operated toe to toe with Ryanair and due to a combination of good scheduling and the power of the BA brand and the Executive Club did very well.

[biddedout]

Thank you Jamie 2009 for trying to bring something positive to this debate and for showing some support for the people who lost their jobs through no fault of their own.
There was more to Flybe than just UK domestic flying and what has saddened me since Covid struck is the way in which the likes of Air France and KLM UK managed to continue to make inroads into the UK market from their own end. KLM seem to be operating into most UK regional airports and have been able to continue to do so and protect their rights on these routes thanks to government bailouts or Government ownership (AF) whilst UK gov just left things to rot. I really hope that the new Flybe manages to take the fight back to these near Europe competitors and finds a way to take on their higher cost base fuel guzzling old jets and mainline contract crews with a much leaner high frequency model.
Without getting into the profitability of each route argument, let's remember that as well as the French regional holiday destinations, at the time of going out of business, Flybe operated from UK regional airports to HAJ, TXL, GRQ, AMS, DUS, LUX, STR, MXP, CDG, LYS, CFR, RNS, EGC, DUB. Wouldn't it be nice if a true UK airline could be supported and helped to at least offer some resistance against the Euro giants.

[davidjohnson6]

It would be lovely if regional networks could be revived... but it seems the general public just don't want to pay enough for these flights to be sufficiently profitable, especially when there is no long haul connection involved

There is a good argument for public subsidy to connect offshore island to a medium sized airport on a mainland... but difficult to argue for a subsidy of Birmingham-Hannover

[SWBKCB]

KLM seem to be operating into most UK regional airports and have been able to continue to do so and protect their rights on these routes thanks to government bailouts or Government ownership (AF) whilst UK gov just left things to rot. I really hope that the new Flybe manages to take the fight back to these near Europe competitors and finds a way to take on their higher cost base fuel guzzling old jets and mainline contract crews with a much leaner high frequency model.

KLM and the companies now part of KLC were operating into most of their regional destinations before BE were thought of. Most flights are on relatively new EMB's - hardly 'fuel guzzling old jets'. Most of BE's flying to AMS and CDG was AF/KL code shares.

a true UK airline owned by an American Venture capital company, so where will any profits go?

[biddedout]

Fair point SWBKCB but I think I am just very frustrated that one way or another, UK aviation is slowly being driven into the ground. I just think there is a space for Flybe to push back into the market without necessarily hurting the likes of Loganair. There has been much focus on domestic flying recently and the problems Flybe 2 will have in a smaller market up against Easy, Ryan and Wizz but maybe there is a chance that the new management team are able to form new relationships codeshares ACMI deals etc and create themselves a new niche market.

They have been sitting on a lot of historical route data and probably know what will work assuming they can get the right deals. I am just disappointed that there is so much negativity when no one really knows what the plan is. Even if Flybe ended up with some of its old codeshare arrangements on some of its former routes, at least a few more jobs would be re-created at this end of the line and that has to be a good thing.

[BA318]

Codeshares and ACMI deals are still difficult to make work. Look at Cityjet. Barely turning a profit and they have a large deal with SAS and had Brussels Airlines.

Just in recent times others like Nordica, Cimber, Great Dane, Jettime and Stobart who all followed a similar path are gone. Flybe1 also tried it and made a mess of it with Flybe Nordic.

Equally short haul codeshares often mean the short flight carrier gets barely anything once it is divided between the operating carriers.

The old data is exactly that. Old. The market is completely different nearly two years on. Plenty of companies are now putting it into their rules that domestic flying is banned, the busier routes have more competition now and brexit will inevitably have an effect on numbers going to second homes in France etc.

There are some gaps in the market. If they can control their costs operating from UK regions to German hubs and sharing with Lufthansa might help but BMI Regional did that and are not here now.

UK-Scandinavia still has some gaps, especially with Norwegian reduced. The Q400 could help to connect smaller Norwegian cities and Denmark.

It would be nice to see them do well but the odds are overwhelmingly against them. They need to find a niche. Scotland/highlands is already well served and Flybe lost that battle last time. They could take on the Channel Islands. Aurigny loses money constantly. Blue Islands has struggled in the past. And it would return to their roots. On the other hand it’s still a small market.

Northern Ireland could be another target. Belfast was apparently a strong base for them before. But IAG have been busy there with BACF operating services.

The South west is another spot but Eastern got the PSO for Newquay and the other routes are small.

The only other option I can see is to go big and take on the other carriers. Someone will lose and we’ll find out who has the deepest pockets or the richest sugar daddy.

[Jamie2009]

https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:activity:6865990895062282240/

I don't think anyone knows what they've got planned so we will just have to wait and see - can't be long now.

[cavokblues]

Surely they've let future staff know their intentions and given a rough indication of what their airline may look like?

[Local Variation]

BA318

I would be very interested in reading your reference for this, if you have a link to share please.

[Flightrider]

At the risk of sounding petty, I don't think that E&Y update is right when they proclaim Flybe will be the first ever UK airline rescued from insolvency. European went through a CVA and I'm sure there were several airline runs through insolvency in the mid/late 1980s including Air Ecosse and BAF. It subsequently ended in tears in all three cases at a later date, but I'm absolutely sure that statement is not correct.

[BA318]

Local Variation

I’m going on what me and friends have from our workplaces. My organisation doesn’t allow domestic flights for any corporate travel. My wife’s company has the same restrictions.

A Wikipedia article also states that the BBC bans staff flying if the journey can be done in under 3 hours by train. It also gives the GLA and Environment Agency as examples. Fintech company Klarna also bans flying for staff on work travel. It’s fast spreading in corporations to improve their eco credentials.

[Jamie2009]

cavokblues

Nope, can’t be long before they reveal all though

[RogueOne]

BA318

Birmingham and Manchester to Scotland cannot be done in under 3 hours on train.
London to Scotland or vice versa cannot be done in under 3 hours on a train.
Southampton to Manchester or Scotland or vice versa cannot be done in under 3 hours on a train.
Newquay to any domestic Flybe destination cannot be done in under 3 hours on a train.

Not sure why the "3 hours by train" argument is even being brought up. That's also dependant on times and availability of train tickets, which are often more expensive than domestic air fares, and with many train operators running reduced services.

[BA318]

Thats just one example. My point was the market is changing. More and more organisations are stopping their staff from flying and domestic flights are the first target. The cost often doesn’t matter. Just like companies which ban business or first class tickets even when they can sometimes be cheaper than last minute economy tickets.

[davidjohnson6]

UK Plc companies are all keen to attract investors to buy their shares. The big buyers of shares are pension funds and life insurers, who now all tend to make some sort of reference to ESG criteria - ie Environmental, Social, Governance. If your company is deemed to be bad, many pension funds simply won't touch you. A company can improve its ESG score (and yes, there are consultants giving out ESG scores) by ticking green boxes. Allowing flights under 3 hours may be more effective for specific employees... but it messes up the company's ESG rating to the detriment of pension fund interest. Unless the firm is deemed exceptionally ESG evil (eg tobacco or weapons companies), the CEO of a plc will care about improving the ESG rating to keep the share price high... and never mind a few employees being slightly less productive. I know the BBC is not on the stock exchange... but there are enough people watching the BBC very carefully, waiting to make a fuss if it does something deemed bad.

Not great news if you are an ultra-short-haul airline pilot competing against road and/or rail... but that's the way things are now

[stewyb]

France is adopting a no domestic flying under 3hr approach, difference being the vast size of the country and you can quite easily travel from Paris to Marseille on TGV in around 3 hrs, unlike the U.K. where it takes 6 long hours on Cross Country from SOU-MAN. The French have the rail infrastructure to make it work!

[SWBKCB]

Funnily enough most railway networks radiate from the capital, so comparing with a cross country route is a bit apples and pears.

However, my organisation banned domestic flights except to NI a couple of years ago, and we used to be regular users of the BE Newcastle-Exeter route. No way I'm doing that on the train. Slow, noisy, uncomfortable, crowded

[ICEHOUSES]

I’m not sure it takes 6 hours SOU-MAN by train, more like 4.5 hours but even compared to France this is a long time for the distance involved I agree. The other examples given above regarding MAN -Scotland journey times are in the region of 3 hr 15 mins plus so not too great, given the rolling stock is now mostly new intercity units much more comfortable compared with an old tatty dash 8, and city to city connections compared with Flybe.
As other contributors have pointed out, many Flybe routes have been replaced by other operators such as EZY on many former MAN routes, I understand other operators such as Blue islands, Loganair and Aurigny have also taken over BE routes too so I wouldn’t expect them to give up without a fight.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

The reality is that the real cost to the economny may be having someone senior unavailable to work as they're changing trains more than once or twice to see a client and on a billable accounts that's dead time! So the cheaper and more efficient option is flying, and we all know it happens. Especially in competitive and fast moving businesses, the notion that substantial deals and new business are clinched over Zoom is a media creation. The same pension funds and eco credentialists which davidjohnson6 speaks are the same Davos set who arrived at COP26 in Gulfstreams and Global Expresses. Finance teams always frowned on business expenses per se, flying is just the most virtue signalling example. In the real world, no CEO wants his staff trapped on the Hell that is Mainline Rail for too much of their time. They really, really don't. We're not France, we don't have TGV from Scotland to Southampton or Cardiff.

[inOban]

Alternatively they work on the train uninterrupted for however long with plugin power, WiFi, 4 or even 5g and arrive for their meeting fully prepared.

Time on a train is only dead time if choose that.

[True Blue]

And these are the same big pension funds that can't wait to invest your money in China! I also have to listen this ESG crap every day in my business, when big business and governments decide that China and Russia and some other countries are to be wary of, then I'll start to believe that they are sincere in what they say. But at the minute, it's all nothing more than to look good. The term is "greenwashing".

[wanna]

BA318

Whilst Jersey has an Open Skies policy Guernsey does not and would require flybe to apply for route licences, cant imagine SoG would give Flybe licences that would then burn their own airline. GoJ and Ports of Jersey have both been fairly supportive of Blue Islands locally and seemingly invested a large amount of money into them... how supportive they would be of Flybe turning back up in Jersey is questionable too.

[ATNotts]

That really depends if the capacity that was lost through the demise of Flybe has been fully replaced. There is more to the equation than just the airlines and airports, the major factor has got to be to have sufficient capacity available to ensure that the hotel, B&B and holiday home rental sector is fully serviced, and that's before you start on the dubious "off shore" companies that use particularly Guernsey as a base for tax avoidance - they will require regular well timed air connections to the UK mainland, and not just to London (there are businesses based beyond the M25 I believe!).

[wanna]

Both Guernsey and Jersey have a bit of a lack of Hotel / B&B accommodation as was discovered in the Summer, certainly in Jersey with the Jet2 / Easyjet / BA flights. Both Blue Islands and Aurigny offer the flights outside of London with BA and Easyjet covering the london airports. I would be very surprised if there was capacity for Flybe or even the want for them. They had like in most parts of the U.K a fairly poor reputation in the Channel Islands, and whilst loved as JEA certainly not so as Flybe. Whilst Blue Islands doesn't always far to well re reputation, for the most part its appreciated as the local airline doing its best and you most certainly cant say a bad word about Aurigny in Guernsey without fear of being mobbed by the locals, they really do love their state owned airline... and why not?

[BA318]

Seems to be online rumours of some kind of launch announcement shortly - possibly as early as tomorrow.

[CabinCrewe]

… I suspect most have lost interest. Launch or not, this is going to be a flop would be my prediction. Don’t believe everything you read on Twitter

[BHX5DME]

Now official - Birmingham will be FlyBe's new HQ creating hundreds of jobs :-)

[ATNotts]

Over three years, 600 jobs, 200 of which will be at BHX - according to the BBC story this has been "pledged" - a journalistic term that actually mean diddly-squat. One assumes that these figures are for direct employees and take no account of ancillary jobs created in suppliers such as passenger handling, maintenance and the like.

Start date looks to be spring 2022 - let the sweepstake open on likely routes!

[BHX5DME]

Flybe has today announced that Birmingham Airport will be its new company headquarters and first new crew base.

Flybe will serve regions across the UK and EU with operations scheduled to begin in early 2022. Birmingham Airport’s Diamond House will be the location of the company’s new HQ and Operations Centre, in a move that is expected to create around 200 new jobs in the Birmingham and West Midlands region over the next three years, with an estimated additional 400 direct jobs to be created nationwide.

The news follows the April sale of the business and assets of Flybe Ltd (in administration, now renamed FBE Realisations Ltd) to Thyme Opco Limited (now renamed Flybe Limited).

Flybe CEO Dave Pflieger said: “We are thrilled to be partnering with Birmingham Airport (BHX), the City of Birmingham, and the Mayor of West Midlands to make BHX the location of our new headquarters and first crew base. It was an ideal choice for us due to its great people and highly skilled workforce, its central UK location, and the fact that Birmingham Airport is a global travel hub where local and connecting customers have access to over 150 worldwide destinations. Today’s announcement marks the culmination of over 12 months of dedicated hard work by all involved, and it would not have been possible without the support of the CAA and the UK Government.”

Andy Street, Mayor of West Midlands, said: “It really is such brilliant news that Flybe is coming back as a commercial airline, and even better that it has chosen Birmingham to house its new headquarters.

“Not only does this mean better domestic and international connectivity for our region as well as local jobs and opportunities being created here, but it’s yet another show of faith in the West Midlands with businesses choosing to commit to our region as we recover from the pandemic.

“Flybe’s choice highlights the strength of the aerospace sector in the West Midlands and the talent pool available, and I wish Dave and his team all the very best ahead of their official launch early next year.”

Nick Barton, chief executive, Birmingham Airport, added: “Flybe’s announcement that Birmingham has been chosen to become the headquarters for its launch next spring is fantastic news for our region’s connectivity needs, and it will bring with it some great new employment opportunities. Dave’s vast experience in managing start-up airlines and turnaround situations, coupled with the recovery of the Midlands’ economy post-Covid, means that Flybe’s return to the skies from Birmingham is a shot in the arm for our airport as well as West Midlands businesses and communities. We look forward to working with Dave and his team in preparation for next spring and to launch such a well-known brand here in Birmingham.”

Pflieger added: “I also want to emphasise that a key area of focus from day one for Flybe will be environmental sustainability and ensuring we do everything possible to reduce our carbon footprint and GHGs. Our entire fleet will be comprised of the De Havilland Canada Dash 8-400, which is a fast turboprop powered aircraft that can complete short journeys almost as quickly as a regional jet, but with lower CO2 emissions. In addition, we will also be partnering with local community charities and partners who are focused on the environment as well as other causes which align with our corporate goals and values.

“As for what’s next, please stay tuned. We plan to provide more information in the coming weeks and months about ticket prices, new routes and destinations, and other important news that will help customers visit loved ones, get away for a weekend, and get out on business trips. This is an incredibly exciting time for us, and we look forward to sharing more updates in the future.”

[Egda]

So why have you singled out Guernsey "that's before you start on the dubious "off shore" companies that use particularly Guernsey as a base for tax avoidance"

The latest scoring by the Tax Justice Network lists the worse being

4th Netherlands
5th Switzerland
6th Luxembourg
8th Jersey
11th Ireland
13th UK
16th Belgium
17th Guernsey

So perhaps you want to stick to comments about routes and carriers and less about what you don't know about.

[Alteagod]

Im going to put BHX-BHD in the hat along with BHD-GLA. Just for starters. I think they will start low and slow and build up market share.......or just crash and burn as the loser in the inevitable price war.

[ATNotts]

I think you're right. The new jobs figure (200 for BHX and 400 elsewhere) are over 3 years, suggesting organic rather than meteoric growth.

If crewing logistics permit I would add GLA and EDI to EMA. Both long standing routes that go right back to when EMA opened, but have been unserved since March 2020.

[Jamie2009]

Loganair on the charm offensive to counter todays announcement.

https://www.linkedin.com/posts/jonathan-hinkles-31116a26_flyloganair-greenskies-wemakeitpersonal-activity-6866724879840907264-1qrr

https://www.linkedin.com/posts/kay-ryan-5313461_flyloganair-wemakeitpersonal-greenskies-activity-6866697994897514496---jK

https://www.linkedin.com/posts/david-bowden-fca-msc-78606917_flyloganair-wemakeitpersonal-activity-6866729297365745664-SpQV

[willy wombat]

I think it’s reasonable to assume that if EMA-GLA/EDI were still viable, Loganair would be flying them.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

ATNotts

They did really well with British Midland on the DC9 with a business friendly schedule once upon a time but that was a different world. It went to the Embraer, then B737 with BMI Baby and then assorted other carriers but road and rail is the preffered option nowadays. Likewise GLA/EDI-LBA.

[Flightrider]

I suspect the fact that Rolls-Royce as one of the major corporate mainstays on EMA/GLA for several decades now has around 8,000 fewer employees in the UK after the pandemic will have something to do with the route's continued absence today. Flybe had ditched the routes - and they'd been taken up by Loganair - before their demise and it's hard to see what would be different this time around if Flybe were to put Q400s back on them.

[oapilot]

Jamie2009

Well, if you were hoping to read “Flybe have opened a new office, so we’re shutting up shop”, you were always going to be disappointed.

Just looks like standard Loganair posts from the last 18 months to me.

[Jamie2009]

Three expertly prepared posts released in short order and then the leadership comment on each others posts almost instantly is clearly coordinated.

Eco credentials will be a big advertising point… Doesn’t the EMB145 use roughly 50% more fuel for 30 less seats and only a few minutes quicker than a Q400.

Obviously the ATR is a very economical and reliable aircraft

[oapilot]

Not unusual really, they’re all pretty active on LinkedIn.

As for eco credentials, the ATR is more fuel efficient than the Q400 for not that much time difference on U.K. domestic routes.

[RogueOne]

Jamie2009

..so is anything that slow. :E

[Albert Hall]

If it is coordinated by Loganair, and it most probably is, then I thought it was quite a well-targeted social media low-level bombing run. I guess if Flybe are looking to take them on, it makes it clear that they'll hold their ground although I'd be surprised if anyone thought any differently. I can't think that many of the Flybe execs involved in the last war are still around, but the Loganair people certainly are. It will be a shame if it comes down to another pitch battle as the intense losses will take years to recover given the meagre returns in this market.

I think your fuel burn figures are way out. When I last looked at this about five years ago, the E145 trip fuel was fractionally below the Q400 on the same sector. If you fill both aircraft, the Q400 is far more efficient per seat, but if you're only carrying 40 passengers on either, the E145 was better. In other words, you need to fill the Q400 to make it any better environmentally - it's not a straight argument. The ATR beats both into a cocked hat, but its cruise speed is indeed a drawback.

[BA318]

I doubt it’s co-ordinated. Loganair has had loads of posts like this on LinkedIn over the past few months with their crew and staff really promoting the carrier.

[Flightrider]

Isn't this stuff about fuel burns all really rather missing the point? Several postings on here in recent days about companies not allowing their employees to fly at all and obliging them to use trains, yet there's a debate about the relative merits of a Q400 versus an Emb-145! The nuances of fuel burn differentials between one type and another are pretty irrelevant when anything with wings is perceived to be bad news for the environment. It's an argument that it's impossible to win in the court of public opinion beyond PPrune.

[Del Prado]

Some very profitable routes out there still unserved.

https://www.anna.aero/2020/10/23/flybe-had-15-international-routes-with-16m-profit-in-2019-rdcs-apex-shows-11-still-unserved/

[crewmeal]

If they're taking on the old Dash 8's/Q400's that were in service before, lets hope the technical problems are soted out. Flybe realilibity performance was a big problem before they went bust.

[Del Prado]

based on my experience of 60 flights a year over the previous 9 years I’d say tech issues were minor. I had one 5 hour delay down route due bird strike, 3 cancellations due weather and probably a handful of delays up to 2 hours due tech, staffing or weather issues.

Never seemed a particular issue for me and I’d be loathe to call that luck when my experience spanned 500 flights. Although I was on a route served once daily so I appreciate we’d more likely get an aircraft swap while a Belfast or Glasgow, for example, would be cancelled and pushed on to the next service.

[TartinTon]

crewmeal

Utter garbage.

[BusterHot]

TT, I’m not sure on what basis you feel able to make such a sweeping statement, but perhaps you’re talking about a different aeroplane to the one I used to fly. I flew it for 15 years, not out of choice, but because I couldn’t get off it and it was a bl***¥ nightmare. The number of delays I took ran into the high hundreds as aircraft were juggled by ops to try and avoid paying passenger compensation with delays rippling down the program, and dispatching under the MEL happened far too frequently. And don’t get me started on the ergonomics of operating the damn thing.

So I’m sorry, I have to agree with the previous post, but I guess it’s all a matter of perspective as to where you were sitting day to day.

[TartinTon]

BusterHot...just going by the CAA official stats. Everything else is just hearsay/conjecture or personal opinion/gripe.

[Dorking]

I agree unless of course you've actually operated the aircraft in which case you'd be only too aware of what's its problems were....as for the CAA figures I'm sure you'll remember the old adage about stats and lies etc

[wanna]

Loganair, Aurigny and Blue Islands announce partnership, creating the largest U.K regional airline, albeit individually owned and operated. With their individual niche markets and fairly strong (certainly in the cases of Aurigny and Loganair) local branding / reputation it will no doubt make Flybe's comeback even more challenging.

[Sharklet_321]

This is exactly what is needed.

Will Flybe 2.0 acquire/partner with Eastern and try to enter the market that way I wonder?

[ATNotts]

Makes things somewhat more difficult / interesting however the principal base is said to be BHX and aside of the Channel Islands, Aberdeen and Isle of Man they don't have a large presence there - but of course Flybe still has a little matter of Easyjet to compete with on the principal Scotland / BHX trunk routes.

The size of the operation that is indicated by staff numbers (new jobs created) I anticipate there'll be plenty to go at from BHX without going head to head with the new Loganair / Aurigny / Blue Islands alliance.

[Sharklet_321]

What routes from BHX are you thinking Flybe 2.0 will do? I can't think of any pressing need on any route that isn't already served.... I'm struggling to understand the business case.

[Jamie2009]

Don’t think Flybe need to start panicking just yet given the Channel Islands lot have 8 ATRs between them, hardly a massive fleet to bargain with. I wouldn’t be surprised if Flybe complain to the anti competition people.

I think they’ll fly to ABZ, INV, GLA, EDI, BHD, AMS, CDG, round the Channel Islands and regional France in the summer.

Possibly NOC, NQY, Germany.

I think aggressive pricing will be Flybe’s method of retaking market share🤷‍♂️. Not great for the airlines but the consumers will get some good deals that may encourage them to start flying again.

[ATNotts]

STR, BER, HAM, LYS, MXP, TLS, NOC, BHD, AMS plus some seasonal French routes.

More than enough for a small fleet of around half a dozen DH4s to go at.

[wanna]

Whilst the Channel Island airlines do only have handful of aircraft, Blue Islands with 5 ATR and Aurigny with 3 ATR, 1 EMB190 and 2 or 3 DO228 its LM with its large fleet, that combined means the partnership has around 54 aircraft. A number that shouldn't be looked down on. Its funny in some ways how LM and Blue Islands were both Franchise partners of the original Flybe, would be somewhat ironic if Flybe 2.0 ended up joining in and somehow becoming part of it all BUT one of the smaller partners.

Not sure how a anti competition complaint would stand, SI have been working with GR for sometime, SI and LM have also been working together for some time, its just a case that now SI, GR and LM are all working together. So far States of Guernsey, the Government of Jersey and the Scottish Government clearly haven't had issue, so maybe it will just come down to those pesky English.

All very exciting and no doubt will benefit the consumer, whether or not thats through harsh price wars or through cooperation to ensure the regions are genuinely connected and who knows maybe Flybe 2.0 would fit in there somewhere?

[SealinkBF]

wanna

Definitely think this is an anti Flybe alliance.

[wanna]

If it is, can you blame them? Better to work together than separately and out of the 3, LM and SI have both had their fingers burnt by Flybe.

[134brat]

Anyone old enough to have some perspective (l'm sure there are many) must be thinking that the Loganair/Aurigny/Blue Islands alliance looks a lot like British Regional Airlines and Flybe 2 is rather similar to Birmingham Executive Airlines. Plus ca change...

[SealinkBF]

wanna

Not at all. Think it's a great move.

[Jamie2009]

Looks like G-JECX had a return trip to BHX today using a Jersey training callsign.

[Albert Hall]

I do hope we are not to have to expect a running commentary on every movement by the aircraft. It surely suffices to know they have aircraft and are continuing to prepare for operations ?

[ATNotts]

That is hardly fair. This is I believe the first training sortie by Flybe since their resurrection and as such worthy of note. Further sorties may be considered less worthy of comment.

[Albert Hall]

I don't know if it is or it isn't the first. But it's not "new news" that they have an aircraft and that they are getting ready to start flying, which is all well and good in itself.

[055166k]

​​​ATNotts. Totally agree. FLYBE info on a Flybe thread, and solid data for a change. I'm booking as soon as I can...... I don't even care where the plane goes.... I know the agonies some of the crews have been through. Welcome back. Have a look at opposition fares and weep......some are higher than rail fares!

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

High fares are the norm for regional turboprops, low fares lead to bankruptcy. Zombie-Flybe will only have low fares til there's blood on the carpet and one survivor in market.

[055166k]

Dash 8, 31 inch seat pitch and quick to turn around against sardine-jet 29 inch seat pitch in claustrophobic 6 abreast and a mega-snail load/unload nightmare. Flybe is a breath of fresh air. Anyone remember the Tridents that did the domestic shuttles..... a real cattle - class - scum passenger experience they were. Mind you, I do still have a couple of the Cat 3 ties they used to hand out after an autoland.
I do hope FLYBE bring back the chocolates, we do miss them.

[Atlantic Explorer]

Well the Dash was a nightmare for me and a lot of people I know who used to hate flying on it. I would pay more to fly on a jet than a dash if I had the choice.

I’m curious why you think Flybe is a breath of fresh air when we know nothing of routes, pricing or business model or anything really? Are you part of the management that know something we don’t?

[willy wombat]

055166k

What a strange post. All I can say is that I did a day return LGW EDI LGW yesterday on EZY A320, full going North and 80% coming home and I’d take that over a dash 8 any day (for the record the flights were excellent, both arrived early and very friendly crews).
Also the comment about Tridents is misleading. The trident fuselage had a narrower cross section than a 737 and of course an A320 is an inch or two wider than a 737 (one of its USPs). I agree the Tridents were tight (flew on them many times) but they were definitely nicer to travel on than the Vanguards they replaced, which brings us back to your turboprop vs jet discussion. .

[SWBKCB]

Atlantic Explorer

Just about sums up the whole thread. :ok:

[ATNotts]

Flybe Mk.2 appears to be "Marmite" on this thread. Some avidly anti - mostly because they either lost out when Mk.1 went down, or find the manner of their resurrection distasteful, and others wearing rose tinted glasses. Then there are some somewhere in the middle.

Nobody who is currently employed by Mk.2 would surely be stupid enough to disclose their plans, so everyone will just have to wait and see. I don't believe it'll be far into January before pans are revealed, then the armchair CEOs will be able to rip them apart or praise them to the hilt!

[adfly]

Couple of little bits of information in this article:

https://travelweekly.co.uk/news/air/resurrected-flybe-takes-delivery-of-first-aircraft

Flybe to lease 12 Q400 from NAC and are aiming to ultimately have a fleet of 32. Guess they'll be about half their previous size if this ends up coming to fruition.

Very much a we shall see situation of course...

[ATNotts]

12 seems a lot. The cynics will undoubtedly say that is so they have 6 to cover for tech issues!

[RogueOne]

& if that happens, New Flybe will have covered their back & have clauses in the leasing contracts that will pay them compensation from the lessors, due to downtime. The A/C will have to be delivered in excellent condition just as they had to be handed back by Flybe v1 - and capable of the cycles they'll be put through.

Flybe v2 will also have access to the tech records of all the previous Q400 fleet and will know which airframes were constantly going tech, which ones had a leak here, or a sensor fault there. the hope is these will not be chosen, or these things will have been replaced prior to leasing.

..& the leasing contracts will likely be on more favourable terms to Flybe v2 this time too. No leasing company wants their planes sat on the tarmac somewhere.

[Buster the Bear]

Mr Loganair said this week that business travel is really subdued and unlikely to come back. Q400 best suited to 'business' type routes, so where does that leave Flybe?

[Atlantic Explorer]

Id suggest up the proverbial creek without a rowing device.

[SWBKCB]

Gosh, wonder why Mr Loganair chose to say that? :rolleyes:

[cavokblues]

In fairness, the article I read with those quotes from Loganair also had a quote from easyJet saying their business pax numbers from September 2021 weren't too different to their numbers in Feb 2020.

I guess they're two airlines operating in different markets, Loganair exclusively UK with easyJet more UK - Europe so it's perfectly possible both statements could be true.

[JobsaGoodun]

I wonder if part of the reason for a drop in business passengers is more simply down to Loganair’s yield strategy stifling demand?

A day return tomorrow (first out, last back) on Southampton to Glasgow is currently priced at £442! 😳. How much of this is about passengers not being there, and how much is it about it simply not being affordable for those that would otherwise use the service? ….

[Flightrider]

What was actually said last Monday was that Loganair don’t see the same volume of business travel returning, and for easyJet, its proportion of business travel was the same today as in late 2019, albeit its passenger numbers overall were down. So by implication, easyJet is carrying less business travellers but that sector for them is no more or less hard hit by the pandemic. The comment from Loganair was a direct response to a direct question from Simon Calder - or at least, that’s the way I saw it. I’m surprised some of the other comments weren’t reported though !

Aren’t any last minute bookings expensive though ? They often were on old Flybe. And BA tomorrow has a couple of LHR-GLA departures on sale at £325 one way which makes SOU look like a bargain. Depending on which flights you choose, you can end up paying a lot on pretty much any UK domestic route - train or air! - if you book late.

[SWBKCB]

JobsaGoodun

Here we go again - how else are you going to do a day return to Southampton and how much will it cost?

[JobsaGoodun]

I’m not saying there’s anything wrong with what Loganair are charging but if you chase yield you’ll undoubtedly see reduced demand.

At £450rtn the price may be simply be too steep, driving historic SOU users to LHR or LGW for a better price.

[Expressflight]

... and if you exclusively chase load factor you'll likely see bankruptcy. Yield has to be carefully managed and knowing your market is one of the most useful tools in the box.

[Flightrider]

The point I was making was that if you go to LHR (which is the option for most SOU travellers) then the fares are probably just as high if not higher. Seven day pricing is probably a more realistic yardstick anyway as that’s more the typical booking lead time for business travel rather than booked on a Sunday for a Monday.

[JobsaGoodun]

Expressflight

Agreed entirely. One wonders how flybe will succeed in stimulating the markets it enters to find the sweet spot between yield and volume.

[Flightrider]

Just to add one point - as Loganair were not flying those routes in 2019 then it’s unlikely they could say that they are seeing reduced demand for business travel on them today?

[RogueOne]

oapilot

Not to piss on your chips old chap, but aircraftcompare lists the ATR72-600’s fuel economy at 0.333 kilometers per liter, while the Q400 covers 0.391 kilometers per litre. I'm sure other favourable/conflicting sources are out there.

Very close, but the ATR isn't the eco-champion you claim.

Plus the Q400 carries more pax and cargo, is faster and as a result of this, quicker flights and turnarounds lead to being able to squeeze in extra sectors over a day.

It's beginning to sound like a Q400vATR / Flybe v Loganscare bum fight in here.

[cavokblues]

I don't know how reactive their yield management is but easyJet's early morning flight from Gatwick is sold out tomorrow. You can get £228 rtn from LHR, but how much would a taxi or train and time cost if you're in the Southampton region?

[wanna]

RogueOne

You could have at least said Flymaybe, ultimately thats what's going to happen, Flybe with its Q400 vs the ATR and Loganair / Aurigny / Blue Islands. Dont forget MX costs are vastly reduced on the ATR compared to other fleets, hence LMs change to the type (among other reasons to). The Q400 is a very 'green' aircraft compared to jets etc, but the ATR is green compared to the Q400 and is the accounts friend to.

[willy wombat]

RogueOne

these figures are just wrong. The atr 72 600 burns about 30% less block fuel than the dash 8 400 and, as another poster has pointed out, the mx cost for the dash is significantly higher than the atr

[Flightrider]

I go back to what I said a week or two ago. The minutiae of whether a Q400 depending on sector length and whether it’s full or not has a fuel burn which may or may not be fractionally different from an ATR72 on a similar leg if it is full or not full is irrelevant. You have a portion of the market being conditioned to think any flying is bad and these arguments won’t change that. For the rest, I doubt an argument about fractions of fuel burn would sway them either way. It’s a futile argument on both sides and I hope not indicative of the way things go as the industry as a whole will lose if airlines start fighting each other on this green battleground.

[RogueOne]

Exactly. Until those making that argument decide to live off-grid drinking their own recycled piss and not tweeting it from a smartphone whilst protesting in designer clothes made in a sweatshop - the argument is invalid in my opinion.

[134brat]

The second paragraph of your post would suggest that you really believe that someone in Flybe 2 will comb the records and choose which Q400 the company will accept and which they will reject on lease. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news but this is fantasy.
Broadly speaking, the Q400 in Flybe 1 service suffered tech delays for two reasons. 1. Too few spares or engineers. 2. Chronic problems with air frame and prop de ice systems or rear baggage bay door seal and pressure bung causing pressurisation defects (there were many others). Flybe 2 will have all the same issues (and more) but without the benefit of the experienced guys they dumped when the company went t*ts up first time around.

Most of the people on this thread who sound less than enthusiastic are not just doom mongers, they are people who saw it all go horribly wrong first time around and would love to be wrong this time but, realistically, feel that they are looking at a slow motion car crash.

I was a certifying line engineer with Flybe for nearly 7 years. I saw it for myself. Too many good people suffered unnecessarily, it is hard to watch it all happen again.

[RogueOne]

That's exactly it. It's called due diligence. :E

Sorry for your trouble with Flybe v1. I hope that doesn't colour your opinion of this brand new and unrelated company - that happens to share the same name, and is yet to operate.

[SWBKCB]

But Flybe 2 don't have free choice of the pevious fleet, and 134brat is saying the issues are chronic and not to specific aircraft in the fleet.

and I wish people would make their mind uo...

Flybe v2 will also have access to the tech records of all the previous Q400 fleet and will know which airframes were constantly going tech,

Sorry for your trouble with Flybe v1. I hope that doesn't colour your opinion of this brand new and unrelated company - that happens to share the same name, and is yet to operate.

[D9009]

brand new and unrelated, but shares the same name

pure and undiluted irony

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

RogueOne

They themselves, zombie-flybe that is, are all over Linkedin talking about the much loved brand returning to the skies. So not only are they seeing it as a return, a relaunch of the old, they're even using the same logo, branding, market positioning, R/T callsign as the original as well as many of the pilots AND the very same aircraft they used to fly!
Aside from all of those related things, it's wholly unrelated 😉
This walks like a duck and quacks.

[SWBKCB]

a relaunch of the old, they're even using the same logo, branding, market positioning, R/T callsign as the original as well as many of the pilots AND the very same aircraft they used to fly!

but not the list of people they owe money to.

[tallaonejuliet]

Indeed, did I mention pensions?
You can't polish a turd, a turd is still a turd no matter what shade of purple it is....

[oapilot]

I suspect the reality at least for the first year or so is that yield will go out the window and Flybe will use the only tool they have, which is price.

So the real question will be how much debt Cyrus are prepared to run up in the hope that they can get a monopoly on routes and recover the yield. This at least will give them a chance of flogging it for a profit.

The second question is how much debt their competitors are willing to run up to stop them.

As has been said before, the problem with high frequency 70-80 seater Ops is at some point the LoCos get interested.

Rogue One, no problem old chap, it’s all smoke and mirrors anyway, both fuel burn and number of sectors you can wring out of an airframe in a day. Depends on a million and one factors.

[GayFriendly]

Speaking about my local airport (BHX) which appears to be the epicentre of this out of the ashes airline, we have a good mix of operators on the former BE domestic routes who, despite Covid, all seem to be holding their own.

I really don't want to see EasyJet, Aurigny etc up sticks with BHX then reliant and all eggs in one commercially unproven Flybe 2 basket for them to go tits up again and take us back to having no domestic flights.

Perhaps they can co-exist on EDI and GLA with EasyJet but not on INV, JER etc.

BHX needs to be careful. Remember Primera anyone?

[nwoody2001]

I do love the way people think that Primeria came in at the cost of United and American. Both United and American cancelled their routes long before Primeria was even announced meaning it was impossible for Primaria to impact on United and American loads/yields. Primera was a opportunist/panicked response to United and American pulling their routes, they were NOT THE REASON United and American pulled their routes.

I also find this concern of "i hope one airlines doesn't push the other" to be counter intuitive.

Historically BHX has been defined as 1 airline serving 1 route (with the exception of holiday route). As such, 1 airline will only serve the existing market, They wont want to over supply that market and will manage that market to maximise yield - providing 80% capacity according to demand, the epitome of a monopoly. The airline benefits, pax pay higher prices, the market never really grows as pax willing to pay the price do, and others go elsewhere.

If BHX wants to grow however, we have to encourage competition in order to grow markets. The airlines often suffer in the first instance as prices become comitative, but what that does do is grow markets and grow demand over time. Yes their is a risk that the incumbent airlines yields decrease initially, but as a rule of thumb, airlines don't tend to want to hand their competition their profit just because their is completion on a route.

There is always a risk putting all eggs in 1 basket, as well as competiton. but if BHX is serious about growing and increasing market share, risks need to be taken.

[ATNotts]

You have a point, but on most routes competition would probably kill the route, especially if two carriers made the decision to pull their routes as unprofitable at he same time. The debacle of UA and AA both serving the New York area, and back in the day when Wardair and Air Canada both served Toronto (those were the days!!!) when AC saw off Wardair and promptly closed the route down themselves.

BHX got their fingers very badly burned when British Airways pulled out of BHX, having been supported, at morally for decades and that certainly supports your argument for competition.

In reality it's probably a no win situation for airports of BHX size and smaller. The principal London airports and Manchester probably don't suffer the same dilemmas.

[Kerrow]

It beggars belief that anyone starting a new airline would choose the name Flybe! The brand is poisonous to potential passengers, airports and advertisers. Who in their right mind would book a seat on an airline called Flybe when hundreds of passengers in the past lost money from an airline called Flybe. I know that the legal ownership will be different but surely it's common sense that the tarnished image of the name FLybe will stick for quite a while.
A most bizarre decision - alongside the simple fact that there are no obvious routes waiting for a new airline.

[jethro15]

Didn't they used to be Flybe?

[ATNotts]

Do you not think the new owners have done some research into the image of the brand? If they haven't then they have been commercially foolish.

In the real world the travelling public are probably rather less negative than you believe.

[Anodyne]

Worrying about the tarnished image of the brand I think over estimates the discernment and memory of the travelling public. If the new Flybe goes from where they are, to where they want to go, at a price that's competitive with any alternative way of travelling, then most people will still book.

The high profile collapse in the media was probably one of the best things that happened to the brand profile (I'm talking about the brand profile here - I'm obviously not glad Flybe collapsed). Any ex flybe employee outside EXT can tell you stories of how dismally invisible the brand was prior to the collapse.
Mine: I had permission to do occasional days work in my pre flying job. One day working with a young lady she asks if I just do that job on an ad-hoc basis, I say yes but its not my main job.
Her; Oh what do you do.
Me; Im a pilot.
Her; Oh wow, who do you fly for?
Me; Flybe
A look of bank incomprehension crossed her face before she said; Oh I don't think Ive heard of them. This conversation took place in the Somerset town of Street - not exactly a million miles from Exeter.

Since the collapse I've noticed that if I do mention Flybe a great deal more people seem to at least have heard the name. Its about brand recognition and as the old saying goes; "There's no such thing as bad publicity".

[SWBKCB]

Just bad debts...

[GayFriendly]

I do love the way people think that Primeria came in at the cost of United and American.


I am fully aware that UA and AA had pulled out of BHX before Primera started and that Primera did not force them off the NYC routes. I would however wager that they did see off FI to KEF, but that's another story we will never know and apologies, thread drift....the reason I mentioned Primera is that I hope for BHX's sake that this 'new' Flybe isn't a similar panicked blind faith response to regain lost routes and that they last a shade longer than Primera did.....in my opinion, for an airport the size of BHX they are a huge risk, however I get that if BHX turned them away there are other airports who would have welcomed them.

I am fully in support of competition and wish there were far more routes at BHX with 2 (or more) carriers, however as ATNotts says, BHX has a very poor record of sustaining (non-Med/sunshine routes excepted) routes where 2 carriers happily and profitably co-exist in the long term. I really hope the entry of Flybe 2 on domestic routes that have been picked up by others since Flybe 1 disappeared thrive as a result. However, I just don't see that many domestic or international route opportunities in the current climate from BHX flying Dash 8's that aren't already operated and/or can commercially support 2 carriers. Good luck Flybe 2, for BHX's sake lets hope they have deep pockets. To be fair, they probably got Floor 2 at Diamond House for a knock down rental seeing as it was already empty, so that's a start.

[crewmeal]

Do we know where Flybe will be flying to? What routes do they intend to operate or is this a well kept secret?

[Curious Pax]

Always intrigued by the concept of airports turning airlines away - that line crops up regularly on multiple airport threads. Are they actually allowed to do that? I get that it’s most likely they don’t have to offer sweeteners tailored specifically to a particular airline, but closing the door altogether? (I’m assuming airport capacity isn’t particularly constrained).

[GayFriendly]

Apologies, turned away wasn't the best choice of words!

I mean had BHX not been that interested or didn't negotiate a good deal then Flybe would have looked elsewhere for their first base. I doubt BHX or indeed any airport actually turn airlines away!

[cavokblues]

crewmeal

No confirmation yet. I'm not a PR expert whatsoever (and I don't mean for this to be a dig) but was a bit of an opportunity missed by announcing BHX as their base yet not also announcing some of the routes? Surely that would have been a way to get some extra money trickling in through the right way?

[ATNotts]

It was a fairly low key announcement of the BHX base, at least it wasn't that prominently covered in national media (a cynic might say, well it wasn't in London!). Presently the public are all consumed in that annual jamboree and spending spree that is Christmas, and add in the ongoing covid-19 situation they perhaps felt that their route announcement and opening of reservations might have been lost in the fog of health concerns and retail therapy.

Post New Year, when, covid permitting, there might be less going in the public consciousness and announcement of a regional airline opening new routes will cut through better. I'm sure they know exactly which routes they plan to operate and the start date but clearly unlike inside the walls of Downing Street, their premises are pretty leak proof.

[BHX5DME]

Flybe has appointed Assured Aviation Services as its ground handling partner at Birmingham Airport, creating more than 100 jobs.

As an airport services business, the Warwickshire-based company will provide full ground handling services for the airline including passenger, baggage, cargo and ramp handling and aircraft cleaning.

Part of the Assured Group, Assured Aviation Services currently operates from London Gatwick, Luton and Heathrow Airport.

The Flybe appointment will be the company’s first at Birmingham Airport.

Bill McPherson, head of airport and Cargo at Flybe, said: “We’re delighted to have appointed Assured Aviation Services as our full ground handing service partner following a competitive tender process. The team impressed us with their commitment to safety and their enthusiasm and demonstrated an understanding of Flybe’s vision and values. We look forward to working with them over the coming months as preparations ramp up towards our launch in early 2022.”

Andy Cruise, managing director at Assured Aviation Services, added: “We are proud to be working in partnership with Flybe at this very exciting time. We look forward to delivering a safe and punctual ground handling service at Birmingham Airport, providing all Flybe customers with an enhanced airport experience.”

The contract win follows the announcement that Birmingham Airport will be Flybe’s company headquarters and first crew base.

[Jamie2009]

Assured won’t be opening a new base at BHX for just a couple of DASH, we know there’s going to be at least 12 and possibly 32 but I don’t know where they got that number. I think we can start to build the picture of how Flybe intend to operate now the news flow is starting.

Route wise, W pattern into LHR from EDI and ABZ must be on the cards given the slots, and hints have been dropped about INV and AMS on social media. Think BHD, GLA and the Chanel Islands are a given…..

CX is putting a shift in on the training flights so can’t be long now until they release more news.

[SKOJB]

SOU can be added to that I’m pretty sure!

[BACsuperVC10]

Two long standing popular routes vacant from Liverpool are CDG and BER. Both were long served by Easyjet with good loads. Could be an opportunity for Flybe, although both are use to A320 capacity . Berlin might be a bit far on a Dash 8 perhaps .

[SWBKCB]

See the armchair CEO's dartboard is back out again

[SKOJB]

indeed but a rumour site this is and a little bit of fun

[BHX5DME]

I would imagine a good size fleet at BHX from Day 1 with multiple daily domestics such as GLA, EDI, BHD maybe IOM and CI..
Plus a range of European destination within 2 hour flying time.
I wouldn't expect much apart from BHX initially :-)
But all guess work on my part !

[OltonPete]

Thursday was busy, today it managed just over 15 minutes before returning to BHX en route Cardiff, tech I believe.

[wanna]

CIs might be stretching it a bit, BHX already has GR serving Guernsey, SI and Easyjet serving Jersey, is there room for three???

The training flight routes and airports seem interesting, maybe random but most likely not. Liverpool featured on Thursday.

[SWBKCB]

The training flight routes and airports seem interesting, maybe random but most likely not. Liverpool featured on Thursday.

Wondered how long that would take.

My money is on random :ok:

[Albert Hall]

Wouldn’t be so sure. I’d heard LPL were very keen to entice them onto BHD-LPL.

[wanna]

But why random? Surely it would make more sense to visit airports you'll operate into if you're going to bother with the training in the first place. (assuming this is mandated by the CAA for experience). Not saying the routes will be the routes, but it seems odd they would visit some of the airfields they are if not intending to operate into them. But then its Flybe so random with no benefit would also make complete sense. They're hardly known for their joined up thinking.

[SWBKCB]

Using that logic Prestwick, Newquay etc would be busier airports than they are.

[wanna]

Newquay would make sense, but when did they visit Prestwick? If you look at where they have been all of the airfields would be logical options for them to operate into / out of.

If your talking about the use of both these airfields for training by other airlines, you need to differentiate between training like Flybe are doing (that is not the norm) and Base Training for a none ZFT type rating. Both Newquay and Prestiwck are used for Base Training by a few airlines, no doubt for many reasons.

[TartinTon]

NQY and PIK are used because there's bugger all else going on and they can do as many touch and gos/landings as they want without hindrance

[SWBKCB]

you need to differentiate between training like Flybe are doing (that is not the norm)

How is it not the norm?

If you look at where they have been all of the airfields would be logical options for them to operate into / out of.

And there are places they haven't been that would be just as logical - Southampton for instance.... And I doubt whether anywhere is so busy that they'd be turned away. Is there anywhere at the moment where there isn't "bugger all else going on"?

And maybe that's what they want everybody to think. Maybe it's the old magicians trick - when they are telling us to look left, we should be looking right :ok:

[wanna]

How many airlines fly aircraft around empty to conduct training other than for base training? This is probably similar to what Celio went through when gaining their AOC, getting everyone up to speed with an amount of experience flying simulated revenue flights. Line training without the passengers. Certainly not the norm.

[7Three7Specialist]

Just to be clear regarding Assured Aviation Services this is there first time trying ground handling. All they do at the moment is aircraft cleaning and washing.

[jmdavies86]

I'd say it's extremely unlikely for there to be enough room for BE to serve the CIs, certainly not profitably.

It's worth noting that Loganair currently serve ABZ, INV and IOM from BHX. If they were to potentially add GLA/EDI to that list, and taking into consideration the new tripartite partnership that they've just inked between themselves, GR & SI, I think they'll have the BHX to CIs market pretty much covered.

For those travellers who fly between Scotland and the CIs, I'd guess that they'll more than likely make use of the existing option of connecting via SOU, or the direct easyJet service to JER from GLA.

As for BHD, Emerald Airlines will almost certainly be considering BHX as a key route in the future once they've obtained their UK AOC and they'll simply take over from BA Cityflyer who only stepped-in as a consequence of Stobart Air's demise.

[Atlantic Explorer]

7Three7Specialist

What could possibly go wrong!!

[wanna]

I wonder how many Ground Handling companies actually tendered for the contract, Flybe choose the company with 0 experience verses the well established companies at BHX, maybe there wasn't to much choice? For a company trying to establish itself they're probably more willing to take a risk vs swissport and the rest who got their fingers burnt by Flybe Mk1.

[SWBKCB]

Being interesting to see who they use when the destinations are announced. Which GH companies lost money to mk 1?

[BHX5DME]

BHX only had one handling company before this announcement - Swissport !

[wanna]

If we're going to be super accurate, Jet2 have their own handling company that operates at BHX. Interesting to see though Swissport didn't win the bid / were they interested? Most if not all companies that dealt with Flybe Mk1 lost money when they went under, unpaid bills etc etc. Thats no secret. Swissport being one of the larger handling agents throughout the flybe network will no doubt have had unpaid bills owed to them, therefore lost money, therefore had their fingers burnt.

Wasn't it World Fuels that actually started the whole process that ended up with the company ceasing operation when they refused to fuel aircraft due to unpaid bills? Creating the ripple effect that ended up with aircraft being seized by airports again due to unpaid bills? Or was all that just rumour? From what I remember of that night one domino fell and the rest went with it... with many fingers being burnt along the way.

[ATNotts]

Were Swissport not an unsecured creditor of the previous incarnation?

If so it's entirely possible they told Flybe 2.0 that they would not deal with them unless or until the old debt was cleared. I certainly would have if I were in that position.

[D9009]

World Flight Services handled Flybe prior to their ceasing Ops, I would have imagined the bill would have been settled prior to the change of service provider.

[ATNotts]

Fair enough, no issues there then, unless other stations have o/s debts that head office would look to recover.

[wanna]

Considering very few (if any) other organisations owed money by Flybe have received money, id have imagined that they did not settle any bill with WFS.

[ATNotts]

I think D9009 was probably referring to Swissport's bills (for BHX services) WFS as you suggest were probably left out of pocket.

[SWBKCB]

Sorry, none of this makes sense. Are you saying that whoever handled BE at BHX were a secured creditor, and would have got all the money they were owed? Unless BE were paying in advance (unlikely!), I can't see any other scenario where the ground handlers at the time BE mk 1 went bust have been paid

[Jamie2009]

I think you're wasting your time trying to get others to differentiate between old and new Flybe.

Despite the fact this is a new company, run by a new Board of Directors and in different part of the Country....... Clearly whatever happened in the past will be repeated because the companies share the same name and logo but thats about it. :ugh:

[SWBKCB]

But the new BE seem quite happy to use the connection when it suits - "we're back after a break" :yuk: - and the people who lost money the first time are entitled to be sceptical....

fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me,

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

So if Zombie-flybe #norelationhonestguv intend on using GLA/EDI/ABZ/MAN/SOU/BHD are they not at some point going to have to use Swissport UK who arguably believe they're owed a lot of money? Or Menzies or similar?

Oh and seeing Jamie2009 advocating a W LHR from ABZ/EDI, I thought they'd lost those slots?

[wanna]

It will be interesting to see what happens, whilst it may be legally a different company, its a hard pill to swallow for companies owed money, swissport and the fuel companies will be huge debts.

Maybe we will see Assured Aviation opening up handling bases all over the country?? Thats one way to get around any issues.

[wanna]

Jamie2009

You have to remember whilst legally it might be a different company it is essentially the same owners, same name, same aircraft etc etc. A lot of people were effected by the closure, granted most companies had plotted it demise long before hence the quick reactions of the likes of LM / GR / SI and even to some extent Easy. These companies have now stepped in and in very challenging conditions trying to make it work. You then have the handling companies that laid off a lot of staff straight after (but before covid) due to Flybe. Newrest, outside of London, GONE, overnight. All due to Flybe. Cleaning companies, fuel companies and so on. March 2020 prior to covid was very turbulent for many people due to Flybe, even people who weren't directly working for Flybe, its understandable people have reservations / frustrations etc. Id imagine Eastern and Blue Islands struggled through due to loosing money thanks to being Franchise Partners... then 2 weeks later COVID!

[Airbanda]

On the one hand if the FlyBe brand has recognition and support, and it probably does, then that goodwill is an asset the liquidator can realise. I doubt it'll be more than a fraction of a penny for the unsecured creditors but that's how capitalism works.

Can anybody explain how the current legal/beneficial interests in 'new' FlyBe align with those of old FlyBe?

[JSCL]

If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks, it's probably a duck.

Nobody else get this?

As you may have heard or seen in the news a few months ago, a new company called Thyme OpCo (later renamed “flybe Limited”) acquired the assets of old flybe Limited (in Administration (https://e.flybe.com/16/1763/25/737eca4642685461cdb01cca88e13195e02a755e/sB2mbJYVQV6OnvnW-iplfkVJqLBp2XeDl6DyTIOO43TuXJteVcXyy_aX29ua2KYTzqchDuictfcVy abScHCiwUOQG63_Q5dX-MbKlxzfGsAVeB0M8yn3rPIGWB43sWVSVYZOmpmvJ_s3gzrEQftt65X39kwV0 S0fDkXm6R3gH-3N5PbYJi_1uKYWnM05EubGzb5P2XLiV9nZS_u3XQsaKjbofFavkLS1TKFaSW lCtCvbHmQebXRZQswpk4IXAKdm1kDGI3SvR7Nyj7FCJBO8MgGhJ1JyGu-2t5Xis1WFjhzsRWwff7IwXTlgDS9MPpzy)) earlier this year as part of an asset sale and purchase agreement (the “Asset Transfer”). As part of this Asset Transfer, your personal customer data on file with old flybe Limited (in Administration) (which may include booking date, name, address, home/mobile phone number, email address and language preference) was transferred to Thyme OpCo (the new flybe Limited.) either because you had previously granted old flybe permission to use this information for your booked flights and other services, or because your data was otherwise part of the permitted database of airline customers and contacts that was being used by old flybe Limited (in Administration (https://e.flybe.com/16/1763/25/4b467a8f5559cce18fca195a22af7c1505079aa8/sB2mbJYVQV6OnvnW-iplfkVJqLBp2XeDl6DyTIOO43TuXJteVcXyy_aX29ua2KYTzqchDuictfcVy abScHCiwUOQG63_Q5dX-MbKlxzfGsAVeB0M8yn3rPIGWB43sWVSVYZOmpmvJ_s3gzrEQftt65X39kwV0 S0fDkXm6R3gH-3N5PbYJi_1uKYWnM05EubGzb5P2XLiV9nZS_u3XQsaKjbofFavkLS1TKFaSW lCtCvbHmQebXRZQswpk4IXAKdm1kDGI3SvR7Nyj7FCJBO8MgGhJ1JyGu-2t5Xis1WFjhzsRWwff7IwXTlgDS9MPpzy)). flybe Limited as a data controller Accordingly, we are writing to let you know that the new flybe Limited (company number 12875147), is now the 'data controller' of your data, and that the new flybe Limited will process your personal data in accordance with our privacy policy which you can find here (https://e.flybe.com/16/1763/25/18c7e0952d23796c03da6fd494dd4cd1b7f65b6a/sB2mbJYVQV6OnvnW-iplfkVJqLBp2XeDl6DyTIOO43TuXJteVcXyy_aX29ua2KYTzqchDuictfcVy abScHCiwUOQG63_Q5dX-MbKlxzfGsAVeB0M8yn3rPIGWB43sWVSVYZOmpmvJ_s3gzrEQftt65X39kwV0 S0fDkXm6R3gH-3N5PbYJi_1uKYWnM05EubGzb5P2XLiV9nZS_u3XQsaKjbofFavkLS1TKFaSW lCtCvbHmQebXRZQswpk4IXAKdm1kDGI3SvR7Nyj7FCJBO8MgGhJ1JyGu-2t5Xis1WFjhzsRWwff7IwXTlgDS9MPpzy). Your data and your marketing preferences You will have the opportunity to update your account details in future communications. If you had previously given your consent to receiving electronic marketing (or if you had opted in when making a purchase), you will also have the opportunity to update your marketing preferences in future communications. If you have any questions in the meantime, you can contact us at [email protected] Thanks for your patience while we work hard to bring back a new and improved flybe. Best wishes from the entire team at the new flybe Limited.

[Airbanda]

I suspect that's no more than what Data Protection Law requires when the insolvent company's brand and goodwill are sold on. I've had messages in very similar terms where High Street stores have gone belly up and the brand has re-emerged as a web based operation.

[Atlantic Explorer]

Skipness One Foxtrot

so they’re planning going head to head with BA?? I’m struggling to believe this!

[VickersVicount]

I’m struggling to believe any of it. Im guessing any struggling ground servicing company would still take any ‘newCo’ business while leaving others to deal with debts.

[Local Variation]

As I eluded on this thread back in April, there will always be one. Seen it too many times.

Outside of ground handling, it is clear they have agreements with core debtors they need to move forward and run the operation. Can not believe for 1 minute that affected CFO's would simply overlook and wave them through. BHX being one of them I imagine.

[Albert Hall]

I've certainly heard about a couple of airports and handlers declining to offer deals or credit terms to new Flybe and one of several reasons cited is the debt from old Flybe. Rogue One's comment is legally and technically correct, but that does not take into account the natural caution and ill-feeling generated towards one of the same shareholders now re-appearing as a new business after also seeing a preferential return from the security it held in old Flybe.

And I can't seriously believe they are going to go anywhere near the LHR operation, slots or no slots.

[inOban]

I would have thought that their suppliers would be insisting on payment in advance into what I think us called an escrow account.

[inOban]

Any previous supplier is likely to insist on payment in advance into what I think is called an escrow account.

[Alteagod]

It makes it very very messy if they have a separate handling agent in each airport. SWISSPORT for example could have offered a nationwide very competitive rate for handling but I would ssy they looking a very sizeable bond to be put in placd first after the financial carnage the previous collapse caused.

[JSCL]

Let's not forget Warwick Brady is now CEO at Swissport.

Irrespective of the past, there's little to no love to be had there I'd imagine.

[ATNotts]

inOban

Indeed, whatever you call it, or however it is set up, creditors of Flybe Mk.1 will likely be looking to claw back some of the debt from Flybe Mk.2, and frankly, who can blame them. I'm sure that this will have been factored in by the new management and financiers; they aren't commercial novices with no previous experience in the world of business.

[BACsuperVC10]

Albert Hall

The original Flybe have operated the route in past.

[Fletch]

But did it make money for them?

[BA318]

According to tomorrow’s Telegraph, the hedge fund behind Flybe is planning to sell it before the carrier carries its first passengers.

It mentions a proposed two stage plan where Flybe will operate with its new buyer for a year before becoming part of them.

It says they have sounded out Blue Islands and Aurigny as potential buyers and could ask for up to £45m for the airline.

Cyrus Capital declined to comment.

[dc9-32]

This will all end in tears.....

[milleriom]

Let's not forget Warwick Brady is now CEO at Swissport.

Irrespective of the past, there's little to no love to be had there I'd imagine.

Love or a lack of it has nothing to do with any major business decisions like that.

[Atlantic Explorer]

Love or a lack of it has nothing to do with any major business decisions like that.

Given the history between the two companies, it most certainly does in this case!

[wanna]

Love or a lack of it has nothing to do with any major business decisions like that.

Maybe out in the real world it doesn't, but in Aviation, for small companies its very much who you know, who's a drinking buddy etc etc so very much does apply.

[wanna]

According to tomorrow’s Telegraph, the hedge fund behind Flybe is planning to sell it before the carrier carries its first passengers.

It mentions a proposed two stage plan where Flybe will operate with its new buyer for a year before becoming part of them.

It says they have sounded out Blue Islands and Aurigny as potential buyers and could ask for up to £45m for the airline.

Cyrus Capital declined to comment.

If this is true, it shows that Cyrus Capital clearly think they have something worth a lot more than possibly anyone else, maybe out of touch with the current market? Out of all the regional airlines, Eastern would be the obvious choice for purchase, well financed, a history of making poor decisions, but always scraping by with an owner willing to take risks. I wouldn't have thought Aurigny or Blue Islands would have the financing to purchase an airline, both are small and battling harsh operating environments. Although Aurigny do have the benefit of the States of Guernsey writing a cheque (45 million being a drop in the ocean to Guernsey), so anything is possible.

[SWBKCB]

Exactly what would you get for your £45m - other than getting rid of a potential competitor?

[Jamie2009]

According to tomorrow’s Telegraph, the hedge fund behind Flybe is planning to sell it before the carrier carries its first passengers.

It mentions a proposed two stage plan where Flybe will operate with its new buyer for a year before becoming part of them.

It says they have sounded out Blue Islands and Aurigny as potential buyers and could ask for up to £45m for the airline.

Cyrus Capital declined to comment.

Where did this come from? Can’t see it in the Telegraph🤷‍♂️

[BA318]

Where did this come from? Can’t see it in the Telegraph🤷‍♂️

It’s on the front page of the business section. https://twitter.com/LondonAirTravel/status/1467619506956783631?s=20

[biddedout]

Exactly what would you get for your £45m - other than getting rid of a potential competitor?
A portfolio of slots at major UK airports (incl LHR), a vast customer database with website and the possibility to feed into long-haul networks through codeshares and alliances. Makes a lot of sense and not a lot different to what could have been done when Flybe 1 bought BA Connect from BA but this time avoiding some of the more dubious decisions like ordering a huge numbers of jets.

[BACsuperVC10]

But did it make money for them?

Their operating record was poor on LPL- BHD. On off on off, you never knew what they were doing. Where as Easyjet offers frequent reliable connections to BFS . Did Flybe make much money anywhere?
Their aircraft is due in LPL from BHX this afternoon.

[southamptonavgeek]

A MAYFAIR financier who co-owns Pizza Express is plotting the £45m sale of Flybe before the revived regional airline carries its first passenger.

Lucien Farrell, the media-shy hedge fund manager who bought the Flybe assets from administrators, has contacted investors to offload the business.

Mr Farrell's advisors have researched prospective bidders with a two-stage plan, according to email correspondence seen by The Daily Telegraph.

Central to the sale are Flybe's lucrative take-off and landing slots at Heathrow airport, which Flybe inherited when British Airways bought BMI in 2012.

It is envisaged that Flybe will operate in partnership with the prospective new owner for around a year before the business is sold. It is thought that Mr Farrell's advisers have sounded out airlines such as Blue Islands and Guernsey, which fly to the Channel Islands.

Last week Flybe announced that it would relaunch from Birmingham airport in March 2022.

Mr Farrell's Cyrus Capital has endured a long battle to restart the airline after buying it from administrators EY in 2020. He managed to overturn a decision by Grant Shapps, the Transport Secretary, to revoke Flybe's operating licence in June, paving the way for the airline to be revived.

A spokesman for Mr Farrell declined to comment.


The sentence about the OL is obviously coming from somebody who is not familiar with the fact that a new one has been granted. I also presume that "Guernsey" is referring to Aurigny in this context.

[cavokblues]

Some questionable journalism in that article.

Central to the sale are Flybe's lucrative take-off and landing slots at Heathrow airport, which Flybe inherited when British Airways bought BMI in 2012.

Considering they don't own these slots I'm not sure how they're intending to sell them.

He managed to overturn a decision by Grant Shapps, the Transport Secretary, to revoke Flybe's operating licence in June, paving the way for the airline to be revived

No such thing happened. The new airline always had a OL. They failed to transfer the Heathrow slots over from the old airline to the new one.

[ICEHOUSES]

The sentence about the OL is obviously coming from somebody who is not familiar with the fact that a new one has been granted. I also presume that "Guernsey" is referring to Aurigny in this context.
Aurigny and states of Guernsey will never be interested in buying another airline believe it or not, the 65000 Guernsey population are already unhappy with the massive GR losses over the years 40-50 million £ plus , the states have bigger problems such as needing to invest in schools and infrastructure over the forthcoming years to deal with not buying more airlines. The only reason states of guernsey own an airline in the first place is to protect the LGW slot since BA pulled out years ago, then Flybe pulled out and failed, a jet was purchased 7 years ago by GR which has cost the airline even more losses.

[DC3 Dave]

Why does Esken keep going round and round in my head?