BIRMINGHAM - 5

[nigel osborne]

planeaddict..

Why would they provifde an indoor spotting area at BHX? With the exception of Manchester (and even there prices are rising to spot) no other UK airport provides good spotting facilities anymore.

The reason..cost.. look at BHX, I have been a spotter their for nearly 40 years. The upstairs spotting area went as it was hardly used towards the end,and the book shop keeping it going went bust. BHX were charging for entry.

Airports will now only provide spotting facilities if it will make them money..its sadly the only thing that matters these days.

I wish I could say that spootting from the boundries would get better sadly they won't. Seems a grass bund will go up when the Monarch hangar is built next year, blocking views from the golf course path.

The new A45 loop has been dug 20ft down to allow a bridge over the road in the future so no views of the runway/airport from here A new very long grass bund goes up from behind the Tristar Hotel all the way past the runway extension.So no views of the runway looking down the hill southwards.:eek:

Sadly also heard that the multi storey car park Elmdon side which currently affords good view from its roof is also to be demolished:{

Nigel

[BHX5DME]

I heard this rumour a few weeks ago.

Looking at 2-3 weekly B738's from Q1/2013

I think BHX will become more attractive to airlines such as AH as they are unable to expand at LHR.

BHX is a very good expansion option being so close to LHR.

A lot of people are quick enough to knock BHX as being too close to London but surely on the flip side there is potentially a lot of airlines that could add frequencies to BHX.

Watch this space.

[chaps2011]

AH was a total waste of time most flights ex MAN had 10 or less pax
there was no advertising done from memory and I just cannot see BHX
getting near that the way things are over there at present


Chaps

[Planeaddict]

I think the only way to get an idea of when Qatar may start their service (well, until they announce it) is to see when they get deliveries of new aircraft (787s presumably).

RE the indoor viewing area, I hadn't been to the aviation experience since around 2007 and they weren't charging then. Maybe in the recent years, it wasn't being promoted enough?

If Air Algerie actually goes ahead, will it actually benefit BHX more than similar airlines, which only have one other destination in the UK (Turkmenistan is an example)?

I know Shaheen Air and Airblue were rumours, but one of them going ahead would provide a bit of competition for other airlines and could expand the Asian market further.

I've mentioned this before, but what have Continental done that other US carriers haven't, to keep hold of their service for the last 15 years?

[North West]

The 2nd A380 at MAN will add about 60 outbound seats to over 10,500 on offer every day across MAN, LHR and BHX to the middle east. Plus the 1000s on offer non stop from LHR to destinations that avoid the need for a connecting flight from BHX or MAN at all.

Confused as to why anyone thinks it is a game changer

[hammerb32]

If it does change a game it's the drop in cargo capacity from MAN.

[nigel osborne]

Plainaddict..re

"I think the only way to get an idea of when Qatar may start their service (well, until they announce it) is to see when they get deliveries of new aircraft (787s presumably)"


Its a good hypothesis, unfortunately they have 60 on order, 3 already delivered and last delivery expected now in early 2018.

So depends where BHX is on ther priority list !

Nigel

[Planeaddict]

Its a good hypothesis, unfortunately they have 60 on order, 3 already delivered and last delivery expected now in early 2018.

So depends where BHX is on ther priority list !

They announced it in July, I can't imagine it'd be that far away. If they planned to start in March, maybe we'll hear about it in the first few weeks of January? ;)

Still hoping that this ORD service goes ahead.

[StoneyBridge Radar]

The 2nd A380 at MAN will add about 60 outbound seats to over 10,500 on offer every day across MAN, LHR and BHX to the middle east. Plus the 1000s on offer non stop from LHR to destinations that avoid the need for a connecting flight from BHX or MAN at all.

Confused as to why anyone thinks it is a game changer

It's not a game changer in the context you suggest.

It is however significant in that, once travellers are aware of it, many choose to specifically fly on it. A trickle of just 40 passengers from BHX to MAN's A380s represents a loss of 10% of BHX's B77W capacity.

[North West]

Well, less than 5 per cent. There are 2 x777s from BHX.
If passengers were fussed about trading up from a 777 to an A380, wouldn't they already be heading south to London? Isn't it 4 daily already, soon to be 5.

[hammerb32]

Agree entirely, cannot see 40 pax per day saying they would rather fly the a380 over a 777. Would suggest price will be the only factor that would sway people to other airports.

[getonittt]

Umm and also because they are flying from their nearest airport if they are from a 40 mile radius, even further towards the east and west.
Is this 2nd A380 from MAN just a rumour or definite anyway? It's only a matter of time for the EK39/40 to upgraded to an A380 methinks

[Planeaddict]

It's only a matter of time for the EK39/40 to upgraded to an A380 methinks

That one-off flight only had the pax of a 777. Quoting what I said earlier about a few comments on a YouTube video:

"A388 has very good take off performance and could take off with a full load from BHX safely as it would not require full tanks of fuel to reach DXB, and that it performs very well on runways significantly shorter than BHX's."

If they were to start operating the A380 at BHX before the runway extension is completed, they would have to use the ENTIRE runway methinks if the plane was fully loaded.

We would get a third daily flight sooner than an A380 however.

[getonittt]

Yes i am quite aware of all that planeaddict , the summer of 2014 is not that far away , that is what i was thinking.

[Skipness One Echo]

If they were to start operating the A380 at BHX before the runway extension is completed, they would have to use the ENTIRE runway methinks if the plane was fully loaded.
What are you basing this on? The cargo capacity of the A388 is poor in comparison with the B77W, this is why Emirates SkyCargo are operating into LHR now as the five daily A380s mean a drop in cargo capacity.

[nigel osborne]

pLaneaddict; re Qatar and BHX.

Yes certainly hope they announce dates in the New Year that would be great.

Unfortunately the fact that Al Bakar mentioned BHX again a doesn't mean much by itself.

Qatar and Helsinki Airport had a joint press conference launching a new Qatar flt from there...yet over a year later still no start date announced ?

Lets keep everything crossed :)

Nigel

[Planeaddict]

Them announcing Qatar would be a great start to 2013 :D

But let's keep looking into these 'rumours' that seem to float around about new services, Air Algerie being the latest.

I've been wondering what is going to be done about Hellenic Imperial Airways. I think they should definitely try BHX again, but with an A320/A310, as the 747 was completely the wrong aircraft for the route (they do seem to be flying in A340's to LHR though...)

[rutankrd]

?

Hellenic are without an AOC .
Their only airworthy 747 was last seen doing some Hajj flights over a year ago.

The two A343 aircraft were painted up but returned to Gulf Air before delivery and are now stored probably awaiting a gas axe !

The only financially sound and viable Greek carrier is Aegean and they route all their UK regional passengers via alliance partners SN Brussels.

Face it the Birmingham, West Midlands, Warwickshire and Worcester business man finds it far too easy (once in the company car) and on the M40 to drive down to Hounslow and Slough regional !

This is NOT going to change in the next decade.

What Birmingham needs to do is develop those solid European business routes (the ones that connect the good old fashioned metal bashers with their European suppliers).

Give up on this long haul nonsense other than to the Sub continent and a few holiday routes.

I am afraid the geography can't be altered.

It's a fantasy to believe that because LHR slots are a premium, carriers might look at Birmingham.
They won't and neither will they look at Manchester based solely on those grounds.

If they can't expand into the South East then expansion will leave these shores for mainland Europe with the UK becoming a branch line feed via alliance partners !

Sorry but thats the facts of the matter.

[ATNotts]

rutankrd

Cannot agree more regarding these "fantasy" routes and unlikely carriers.

However your analysis that your average midlands business person would rather driver to LHR is flawed. On the contrary, business people from as far south as Oxford are more than happy to drive to BHX, rather than risk the car park that is the M25 between the M40 and M3, past Heathrow.

Where the problem arises is that to foreign visitors, especially those geographically challenged ones from across the Atlantic, the England is London, and London is England, so getting the inbound business and leisure passengers that come to UK to think beyond London is always going to be an uphill challenge. You can't make a business out of just catering for UK originating passengers, they are probably less than half the story.

Visit England does little to help change that mindset with it's constant diet of advertising to the outside world being based around red double-decker buses, and London landmarks!

[Hotel Tango]

I would use BHX any day over LHR or LGW. However, not necessarilly for direct Long Haul since flying through another hub such as AMS, BRU, FRA, MUC can offer much cheaper fares than direct flights.

I would agree with ATNotts that business men (to whom time might be more important than cost) would favour using BHX over LHR if given the choice.

[Call Established]

Scary as it seems, Hellenic are looking at a BHX ATH ISB or similar next year from BHX one week......... probably with the backing of some local dodgy travel agent

[Planeaddict]

Scary as it seems, Hellenic are looking at a BHX ATH ISB or similar next year from BHX one week......... probably with the backing of some local dodgy travel agent

Can't think of anyone who would use that service if it was to go ahead :suspect:

[rutankrd]

And that is exactly what I said BHX should develop those key European services that benefit the West Midlands and Worcester and yes even Oxford business man (as opposed to the corporate that gets booked through LHR whether they like it or not !)

However the blackhole is still just too close by (in travel time)

Agree with your considered views on Visit England (Square mile !)
They are really hopeless at selling anything other than London aren't they.

I also appreciate that the smaller regionals have the benefit and the feel of a more personal service.

One thing i would say in Birmingham's favour and with the runway extension it may well help in developing a sizeable cargo operation that may be more global !

Build a decent ramp get out and target those Chinese Luxembourg and US bulk carriers and forget about SLFs

You can't detract from the excellent distribution and road network and boxes couldn't careless about air miles/avios/Miles and More or similar greed related schemes!

[Planeaddict]

Flights frequency plea by Birmingham Airport boss
Airlines are to be encouraged to increase the frequency of flights from Birmingham Airport to major destinations like Orlando, Belfast and the Caribbean.


Its chief executive Paul Kehoe has told the Express & Star that 2013 will be a year to show what the airport is capable of as work takes place on a £65 million scheme to extend the runway and an aircraft maintenance hub is being built by airline Monarch’s engineeringcompany, creating 300 jobs.

Mr Kehoe has been trying to convince the Government that its solution to congestion at London’s Heathrow Airport lies in using Birmingham and other regional airports as “hubs” and persuading more operators to base themselves outside of the capital.

But he has said that the key to increasing usage of Birmingham, and to creating more jobs, will lie with the success of the wider West Midlands.

“I’m hoping to see another long-haul route in 2013,” Mr Kehoe said.

“Qatar Airways have said they want to serve Birmingham but haven’t said when. I’m also hopeful of seeing more flights to European cities. Madrid is high on our wish list, as are Prague, Budapest, Toulouse and Lyon.”

The airport is also working to get a flight to Amritsar in India to serve the large Asian population in the West Midlands but a link would depend on the fortunes of Air India.

Mr Kehoe said: “We’ve got people going to see Air India next year but they need financial support from their government, and Air India will also not want to dilute their business at Heathrow.

“We’re promoting the runway extension but it is also very much about selling the economy of the West Midlands.

“Airlines want to see a growing economy so they know they have the business travellers. By the end of 2013 we need to make it clear that Birmingham has a role to play in the national infrastructure and that we are a vital part of it.

“We’re talking to different airlines who already use us.

“We have one flight a week to Orlando in Florida. Other airports have four or five.

“We go to Montego Bay in the Caribbean once a week in the summer and Toronto in Canada once a week. We could handle more flights to Belfast. The challenge in 2013 is to do more with what we have.”

At least they are working hard to get these well-needed routes.

[Skipness One Echo]

“We’ve got people going to see Air India next year but they need financial support from their government, and Air India will also not want to dilute their business at Heathrow.
He's chasing a route with a badly run airline that needs government support and all that goes with it, and also that will be competing with itself at LHR?
Madrid is high on our wish list, as are Prague, Budapest, Toulouse anHe should know better than to use the term "wish list" I would say. These are all easyJet type routes, I wonder why they don't make EZY an offer they can't refuse?
Build a decent ramp get out and target those Chinese Luxembourg and US bulk carriers and forget about SLFs
Isn't EMA a little too close to come from behind in this market?

[Planeaddict]

I think Airblue will be at BHX before LHR in my opinion.

[AMM626]

Air Transport Research Society comparison of landing fees for 767 and A320. Although it's from 2010 it makes interesting reading to compare BHX with other UK airports.

http://www.atrsworld.org/docs/Key%20Findings%20of%20%202011%20ATRS%20Benchmarking%20Projec t%20-%2027July2011.pdf

[justplanecrazy84]

Is there any cargo improvements in BHX's future plans?

[chinapattern]

Could anyone enlighten me on how landing fees are calculated and why BHX is so expensive? Can't quite understand how they charge so much for a 767 to land yet (if it's true) allow Ryanair to park up their spare fleet for peanuts for months on end.

[rutankrd]

I am very well aware of the range of Long haul (to distant hub) and leisure routes available out of Ringway.

MAG has many successes (and failures) over the last 20-30 years, however this is for a differing thread.

Manchester is to a degree also just about sufficiently remote (ground travel time wise) to resist the blackhole .

You know I might reside in Middlesex and spent nine formative years in Oxford, but I am originally from Manchester !

I actually would like to see a more concerted approach to the economic requirements of the regions however as I say coercion may have the adverse effect of driving long haul growth to Mainland European centres.

Again in the case of Birmingham a comprehensive European and yes some leisure routes are necessary way before the prestige of long haul.

Skipness - I think BHX with an adequate runway would make for a healthy competitor to MAG owned EMA where boxes are concerned.
There are other box carriers beyond UPS and DHL (the primary EMA operators).

When the real economy starts to recover a number of the Far East pallet carriers may well want/need to return to the UK and Birmingham could be in the mix.

[OltonPete]

Navpi

I believe it has been rumoured that both BHX & EK have stated that the Manchester Middle East expansion has put pressure on the BHX service but I am not sure where the information has come from re the second service in particular. The downgrades from 428 to 360 seat aircraft since May are similar for both services.

The EK38 has good connections to Australia and during the Southern Hemisphere summer the loads are terrific.

I think the reason for the Manchester second 380 is due to the fact EK20 was doing very nicely as a two class 428 seat 77W and when they went to all three class versions there isn't enough capacity in the evening and it is not a case of just shifting pax to EK22 as this EK Dubai bank or wave whatever you want to call it does not offer the same connections.

BHX would have the same problem if a third service was added and if EK decided to go all three class. For six months of the year 360 seats would not be enough although EK have re-introduced an earlier hours Sydney departure ex Dubai connecting with from the Europen afternoon departures, which will help a little.

I can definitely say that all three Manchester - Dubai flights between May and November were definitely not full. They have been steady around 75-80% load factor based on the CAA stats with a peak in September at around 85%.

Pete

[nigel osborne]

NAVPI.

They are not doubling the sizeof MAN Airport they are building a massive industrial unit and office complexes on its land.

As for EK being full... think the load factors are somewhat shy of 100% as you claim !

Please stick to rumours !!

Nigel

[groundhogbhx]

Just for info, the EK A388 did have a 773 load on it (just in case the Airbus went tech and had to be replaced). The aircraft took off up hill with a tailwind and only used about 2/3rds of the TORA, so full and into wind on the current runway isn't a problem, shifting the current cargo loads would be though.

I think the speculation about EK is really funny, none of you have a clue about the load short of the actual load factor. BHX is constantly in the top 10 yielding routes in the EK system (normally in the top 4). Any decision to add a third flight (could already give you the timings and flight numbers but I won't) will not be based purely on the passenger load, although the earlier flight gives better connections to the sub continent and would reduce pressure on the 40, but on the huge amount of cargo coming from the current 380 stations to add to the home grown bookings, even SkyCargo can't keep up with demand on their LHR flights.

EK aren't stupid, the third flight is alive and well. It will start when TC thinks the time is right.

[justplanecrazy84]

Merry Christmas everyone hope you all have a great day!

[StoneyBridge Radar]

think the speculation about EK is really funny, none of you have a clue about the load short of the actual load factor. BHX is constantly in the top 10 yielding routes in the EK system (normally in the top 4).

Fighting talk, and somewhat condescending.

Having been involved in yield management and long scrutinised the performance of competing carriers on various routes, I find it very difficult to believe that BHX has ever been in the top 4 of EK's top yielding routes. Just don't believe it. It sounds like the old spotter's claim that BA's MAN/JFK was the most profitable on the network.

Unless of course you can provide some concrete evidence......?

EK is a success at Brum, but let's not over egg the Christmas pudding ;)

[nigel osborne]

Groundhogbhx.

Um yes BHX EK is hitting about 80% load factor and its a success for us.

However it is silly to suggest BHX is in the top 4 re yield.:=

If that is so, why do we still have only 2 class machines. :confused:

The moneis made up front, and only BHX and NCL have a mostly cattle class sched now in the UK.Everyone else has lie flat beds and first class suites where the real monies made :ugh:

Im really hoping BHX can increase its yield somewhat to enable us at least get one 3 class flt a day next year.

Nigel

[Daza]

Although interesting to enthusiasts (me included) the passenger loads are just that, crude numbers. Even economy class tickets are priced at several levels. Some economy class fares especially those booked at the last minute and fully flexible tickets can be priced on a par with business class fares. Only Emirates know how each base performes in terms of yield. Crude numbers are just that.....crude.:ok:
Can I add this is no criticism of the guys on here who spend many hours interpreting the CAA figures (OP springs to mind). Emirates have a successful operation at Birmingham along with many other legacy airlines and like others I am amazed that Birmingham has what it does with the charges in place :}:
Oh and Merry Christmas and New Year wishes to all.
Daza

[Planeaddict]

I think the number of passengers so far this year is around 8.8 million? If at least a million pass through this month it'll become the busiest year ever.

[BHX5DME]

Planeaddict

That is incorrect.

2012 to date 8,389,726, so we will see just over 8.9m in 2012.

Best year was 9,628,254 in 2008.

A few years till we get back to these levels, unless EZY set up a base :-)

[Navpi]

Good point DAZA the pax loads can be 80% in summer and same 80% in Winter but the yields even if ALL ECONOMY can be radically different !


Nigel

I was simply quoting "Man speak" from the "Tender Docs", this suggested it would now be the largest building site in the UK since the building of the Olympic village.

.....I accept its not the actual terminals but nontheless it is pretty impressive. The World Logistics hub is pure cargo however and is enormous !

[Planeaddict]

There's been a bit of talk that more flights are actually needed for Toronto and Orlando. Could Air Transat expand to a 2-3x weekly operation?

I think Air Algerie could work like the likes of Turkmenistan and Uzbekistan Airways worked - Uzbekistan even operated to JFK for a period of time from 2001-2003. I don't know if it could do the same but I guess they'll have to operate to just BHX first.

BHX didn't seem too confident with the US Airways operation before it commenced - reducing it to five weekly says it all. Unless they treat it like they are treating United, I feel they may struggle to hold on to any future USA routes.

[nigel osborne]

Plane Addict,

This summers Air Transat A330 was 98% full, so its very dissapointing that Air Transat are cutting it back to an A310 next summer for whatever reason.

The A330 planned for BHX is now going to Manchester as an extra and we get the A310 from Manchester. It takes MAN-YYZ from 6 flts a week this summer to 8 next !

NAVPI; Yes its a very big development at MAN.

However in aviation terms construction at BHX and around outstrips Manchester at present. New runway extension and 4 lane highway being constructed now ..the site is huge.

The new Monarch hangar construction starts next month and will be larger than the one at Manchester, capable of taking 2 B747-400s, or 2 77Ws at the same time. Will also be a dedicated B787 facility the only one in the UK. ;) :D

SeperatelyA huge new casino,cinema complex hotel and office blocks are also being constructed at the NEC

Nigel

[crewmeal]

Planeaddict - where are you suggesting Air Algerie operate? If you are suggesting they fly BHX to India via Algiers then why fly due south then fly east. Pretty pointless. If you are suggesting they fly to the States again why fly north then fly west? Pretty pointless.

if you are suggesting flying to Algiers then read what the foreign office say:
Algeria travel advice (http://www.fco.gov.uk/en/travel-and-living-abroad/travel-advice-by-country/middle-east-north-africa/algeria)

[groundhogbhx]

Like I said, those that don't know the FULL story just speculate. I don't speculate on the figures :ok:

[Heathrow Harry]

Nigel O wrote

"The moneis made up front, and only BHX and NCL have a mostly cattle class sched now in the UK.Everyone else has lie flat beds and first class suites where the real monies made"

I really doubt that NCL would provide a significant number of first class passengers on a daily basis - even connecting. To me it looks like a a small business class, enhanced economy and economy is the way to go there

Birmingham may be different but with two flights a day you're asking for a lot of first class passenegers

[Call Established]

There is no 3rd EK planned at present BHX fact. It is widely known a 3rd would dilute revenue and seat capacity. Earliest would be late 2013 and then same as MAN an early am dep to meet the Indian and Pakistan better connections. even the EK staff have confirmed......

[Planeaddict]

Weren't EK planning a third daily flight years ago? I'm pretty confident it'll happen next year however.

I still think the landing charges are why airlines are refusing to fly here. For example, they are charging an A320 to land for twice as much as MAN. It doesn't affect the airport, it affects business links.

[Ringwayman]

EK is normally pretty much focused on generating greater yield before adding frequency (just have to look at the development of MAN to see why). I honestly believe that they will do what the did with MAN- it will be A380 and 77W before having a 3rd flight; the only problem in my scenario is that I'm led to believe that no A380s have been delivered in the config they plan to use.... i.e. no 1st class, just business and economy. That means possibly adding 150 seats each way so delaying a 3rd flight even further.

[nigel osborne]

Crewmeal,

I sort of agree with you re Air Algerie, however suppose you could say many people take Emirares travelling SSE to then connect from Dubai ,then fly WSW to South Africa ?

Having said that the Algerian population is not large in the Midlands and would be surprised if they came to BHX..but you never know.

Nigel

[chinapattern]

I notice that their MAN service is going up again to x10 weekly with the A321 being used on at least one of the flights. Wonder if this boost has been helped by the loss of bmibaby here? Realistically I think their the only major European airline we could see starting BHX in the short-term.

[North West]

EK is normally pretty much focused on generating greater yield before adding frequency (just have to look at the development of MAN to see why).

What does this even mean?

They are still in significant growth mode are they are looking to build as large a scale hub as possible, which means frequency and scale into and out of large markets. In particular, it means adding frequency and scale into markets where other look-a-like competitors are also trying to get a stranglehold. Their UK presence is directly influenced by what Qatar & Ethiad offer and also the connecting options offered by BA, LH, AFB. In this regard the competitve market ex-MAN is very different to BHX market.

[crewmeal]

Nigel - I sort of agree with you re Air Algerie, however suppose you could say many people take Emirares travelling SSE to then connect from Dubai ,then fly WSW to South Africa ?

Yes you have a good point in which case Algiers is exactly on track for South Africa. But I haven't ever see SA mentioned on any BHX forums. It's been about the States, the Far East and Australia.

If I was flying to SA from BHX I would look at a European connection first, not DXB.

[Planeaddict]

I doubt South Africa can presently be served directly by BHX anyway, but even if it was would people use it?

[nigel osborne]

North West,

I think you have to add to your hypothisis "keeping up with the Jones" Emirates expanded at MAN which was followed by Qatar and then Etihad.

Thjy flooded the market expanding at virtually the same time, with way too many seats leading to Qatar having to cut frequencies.

I think especially Etihad as they are blinded by their links to Manchester City and seemingly having a bottomless pit of money. I am quite sure if Emirates added another rotation Etihad would do the same just to keep up !

Nigel

[nigel osborne]

Crewmeal you may not be quite correct.

We were looking at Visiting SA next year and the Travel Agent said the cheapest way was to fly BHX-DXB then on to SA from there.

My neighbour and family did it last July and a friend and his are doing it next May.

So seems it might be a pretty popular way to get their from Birmingham after what Travel Bag told us and my small snap shot of others I mention.

Nigel

[groundhogbhx]

My final words on EK.

Load factors - When the flight isn't full the booked business load factor (paid for seats before the upgrades for airmiles start) will normally exceed economy. When 'old' 3 class a/c come in (12/42/310) it is not unusual for the booked business figure to exceed 42, 54 happens often enough to be not classed as out of the ordinary and is sometimes the reason for the 3 class to be scheduled.

Under the floor are up to 44 ULD positions, it is normal for all positions to be used and having nil fit on the outbound load plan is unusual. Several times a year the inbound cargo figure exceeds 27,000kg, the maximum outbound figure has exceeded 29,000kg with a full passenger load! Normal loads exceed 10,000kg.

As I stated before, BHX is normally amongst the top 4 yielding routes in the EK system. The flight numbers and timings for the 3rd service are known, the flights will start when it fits in with the plan. There are other priorities for the new a/c coming on line which are more urgent than BHX. The only people who know where we are on the list work in DXB, they will tell us when they are ready but we are on the list!

[getonittt]

The flight numbers and timings for the 3rd service are known,

EK041/2 by any chance :hmm:

[pwalhx]

The flight numbers for a 4th and 5th Manchester service are known, so they are on the list doesn't mean they will start soon.

[Planeaddict]

EK041/2 by any chance

Presumably. I'd expect it to get underway next year, can't see them put it off any longer.

On which of the two flights are the yields worse? Have any of the two flights ever been full?

Whatever happened to that campaign two years ago to bring back flights to India? Doesn't seem BHX are aiming much for it.

[nigel osborne]

Planeaddict.

BHX are trying to get Air India back, sent a delegation to India in the summer.To be fair they did sign a new contract with Air India, but it was then blocked by the Indian Govt and they sacked those responsible who signed it.

If Qatar do start this year out of BHX doubt EK will go for a 3rd Flight soon..However if it becomes clear to them that Qatars recent words saying they are to start from BHX do not soon bring about a start date then EK may look at a 3rd service.

Unfortunately BHX loads were reduced by 10% when Etihad, Qatar and Emirates expanded out of MAN again last year.If it happens again not good news for BHX !

Nigel

[VC10man]

Today I picked up some friends from BHX. The plane landed at 1200, it took about an hour for them to get through passport control.
There were only 2 desks open, it is a disgrace to have to queue to get back into your own country.
Something should be done to rectify this problem, such as employing more staff. The airlines manage to do it.

[Laasjet]

I have to agree with you VC10.

I often travel through BHX and try to avoid an arrival behind certain flights, for example, the lunch time EK, which my flight sometimes follows. If I am unlucky and there are also one or two IT arrivals, it is highly likely that the passport queue will be "up the stairs". Not the best first impression.

I have a system of pick up to avoid parking charges and it sometimes requires a hasty readjustment to the ETA for my "taxi".

David

[Planeaddict]

So it seems that EK loads will keep dropping unless they increase capacity. I guess they'll have to do that in some way next year.

When would be the estimated completion date for the runway extension?

[SWBKCB]

As I stated before, BHX is normally amongst the top 4 yielding routes in the EK system.

There are other priorities for the new a/c coming on line which are more urgent than BHX.

Sorry if I'm being dense, but am I missing something here? Why isn't growing a top 4 yielding route a priority?

[North West]

Because the price of a seat is driven by how much capacity is available (supply) relative to the size of the market (demand). It's not a constant.

[ATNotts]

Immigration control is in the hands of the UK Border Agency, and it is not within the gift of the airport, airlines or handling agents to do something about.

The government has no money (as we all know) so I would imagine that employing extra staff at backwoods airports such as BHX, which the news media hardly know the existence of, is not going to be the top of the list for spending money that we haven't got. Of course, were it to be a London airport things might be different!

We, the public, have in part made this situation, with our apparent steely opposition to joining the Schengen area (as reported ad nauseum by the Daily Mail, Telegraph and the like). In making the border nearly as hard to cross as the US border has just made the situation what it is today.

We have made our collective bed, so now we must sleep in it!

[Planeaddict]

How likely does Air Algerie seem to you? It's as likely as Hellenic Imperial, who are rumoured to be pondering a BHX return, routing through Athens to either ISB or a destination in India.

Don't know if anyone has posted this but this link: http://www.atrsworld.org/docs/Key%20Findings%20of%20%202011%20ATRS%20Benchmarking%20Projec t%20-%2027July2011.pdf, from the Air Transport Research Society compares airport landing charges throughout the world for 767 & A320. It's from 2010 but interesting stuff.

Although there are many variables it's easy to see why lack of yields is often the reason sited for stopping/reducing/not starting BHX (US Airways and Easyjet to name two recent examples). MAN is roughly HALF the price of BHX!

It's worth pointing out that Qatar started operating the 787 to LHR a few weeks ago and have announced they are putting it on their Perth service in February. Seeing as BHX would be a new destination, would they put the 787 on it?

[VC10man]

I do not agree with you ATNotts. The government have plenty of our money taken in all sorts of ways. They can spend it on nuclear missiles, bombing countries which have no connection with us and of course on their wages and expenses.
It is a disgrace to have to queue to get in your own country, they should employ more staff. We should all complain more.

[justplanecrazy84]

I've mentioned them before but i can really see Vueling starting soon as they are starting so many new routes and can see them starting a BHX - MAD service.

What do other people think?

[simoncorbett]

Over the years there have been quite a few routes from BHX that were top money makers...apparantley..

AA BHX to Chicago.. was 3rd highest performer after MAD & ?..
AI BHX to Amritsar.. Air India said made large amounts of money.. only stopped to save landing rights at LHR...

Both of the above no longer operate...

[rutankrd]

Not a chance that Vueling would operate MAD-BHX any time soon !

Vueling bases are Barcelona/Toulouse/Amsterdam/Paris and soon Florence.

Madrid only has a very few holiday routes and connections to other bases (Paris/Barcelona/Florence).

The only carrier likely to fly BHX-MAD would be Ryanair.

Outside chance for Iberia Express but only if IAG reconsider the UK regions.

Air Nostrum from Glasgow and Manchester didn't last long.

[justplanecrazy84]

They would have no competition so would have thought it would have been tempting but saying that if it was that tempting i guess the route would be covered by now

[OltonPete]

justplanecrazy84

Vueling Madrid in a word - unlikely

In a few more words - They are based in Barcelona so there is the first problem. Here is a list of their new routes

Vueling Further Expands S13 Service with New Routes | Airline Route – Worldwide Airline Route Updates (http://airlineroute.net/2012/12/26/vy-s13update3/)

Have you seem how many flights they have at Madrid - not many and the major growth is at BCN so it would require further expansion, which of course is possible with Iberia's problems but the unions might have something to say about that. Although 12 x Iberia A320's will be going to Allegient by the end of 2013 so maybe they might expand at Madrid but Iberia Express is around for that.

I thought Monarch would try it but I was wrong unless they have a change of heart.

Planeaddict

The link re charges was posted and discussed earlier

Qatar - Indeed the 787 config makes it ideal for BHX but an A332 will do but I am not sure if any further discussion is worthwhile on this point as QR will do things in their own time

Air India Best ignore anything you read until you can either book BHX-ATQ or even better see the aircraft on the BHX tarmac.

Air Algerie - No noticeable hub, no tourism to speak off and virtually no known O & D traffic. Based on that I suspect that if it does happen there will be more to it than first thought (pesudo-charters, oil industry?)

Emirates - This is probably worth discussing as there is little doubt the third service was pencilled in but things have stalled. Ringwayman could be right and an A380 on EK39 first (2014) or with EK seemingly trying to build that third Dubai bank maybe an A332 in the morning.

However reported on another site, two more two class A332's are to leave the fleet early 2013. This leaves 22 A332's mainly three class configurations.

With the low season and Ramadan following each other in 2013, EK loads from the beginning of May to the end of July are going to be challenging to say the least.

Seems 2013 will be another interesting year at BHX.

Pete

[GrahamK]

Plans to rename BHX Ozzy Osbourne International Airport anyone? :cool:

[rutankrd]

Why the families UK home for many many years has been leafy Buckinghamshire and close to the end of the metropolitan tube line "Chalfont St Giles"

A stones throw from the "blackhole"

[rutankrd]

When Qatar get round to operating into Birmingham they will almost certainly use two class A332/333 models.

Of all the nonsense AH/AI/EK third flight early 2013 - Qatar are the only creditable new carrier on the horizon - however as you rightly point out Islamic holidays combined with Uk low season would likely hold back any decision to the autumn period or even 2014.

As for India well lets say combined political interference global recession (In relevant tech industries) and shear weakness of all airline candidates will prevent any UK regional service for some years.
Kingfisher - Effectively bust
Air India - Corrupt political tool and also broke
Jet - More concerned with *A membership and deciding whether to remain in Brussels or move to Munich.

[CabinCrewe]

What would come first in UK EDI or BHX for the next ME route from any carrier be it Qatar or Etihad ? :confused:

[Planeaddict]

Didn't Qatar say they were waiting for deliveries of new aircraft? I didn't think they would be waiting for deliveries of new A330s.

Plans to rename BHX Ozzy Osbourne International Airport anyone?

How ironic - I saw that in the news ;) - I'm not sure I like the idea, then again we'll still refer to it as BHX so it won't make much of a difference.

However reported on another site, two more two class A332's are to leave the fleet early 2013. This leaves 22 A332's mainly three class configurations.

Well, I get the feeling EK would want to start the third daily service before the A332's run out as I can't see them starting with a 772/3, unless they would be willing to operate an A343 on the route if it can manage the runway length.

Over the years there have been quite a few routes from BHX that were top money makers...apparantley..

AA BHX to Chicago.. was 3rd highest performer after MAD & ?..
AI BHX to Amritsar.. Air India said made large amounts of money.. only stopped to save landing rights at LHR...

Both of the above no longer operate...

I'm guessing AA was the third highest performer after MAD and possibly Dubai. I don't think BHX really fought to keep AI, or at least get it back the next summer. They do seem to be vying for AA/Chicago however, it has recently been in the news with them realising the cities are twinned :ooh:. After AA terminated in 2002, PIA struck up a service to Chicago transiting through BHX, which worked well until they brought out their 777s and moved to MAN instead.

Airlines like US Airways could have worked well if they sorted out these landing charges and, if they maybe decided to make it year round and had been more confident in it as they must realise they are struggling with attaining numerous US services in the long-term. Continental seems to be the only one that has worked, and that always seems to be full.

I guess it's quite unlikely we'll be seeing an India service in 2013, but it's possible if one of those three airlines sort themselves out. I think it's certain the A380 won't come until the runway is done.

It's quite a shame as with Air India, you would get 3 different 777s at the airport at a time (EK, PIA are the others) which not many other UK airports could manage, not even Gatwick.

2013 will indeed be an interesting year for new services. Still keeping a lookout for any rumours.

[Planeaddict]

What would come first in UK EDI or BHX for the next ME route from any carrier be it Qatar or Etihad ?

BHX seems more of a priority, Qatar have even confirmed they'll start BHX (no schedules or start date yet however). Etihad won't be here for a couple of years at least.

[GayFriendly]

Of all the nonsense AH/AI/EK third flight early 2013

Couldn't agree more rutankrd, there has been more than the usual wishful thinking on this thread recently. I know this is a rumour network but EK third flight, AI, AA and QR @ BHX rumours are just getting boring and the fact they still get discussed is testament to to the fact that there is simply nothing else out there credible long haul wise to talk about :eek:

Yes QR and EK are possible, although when who knows. I know that BHX are still chasing AI but really what for? If ATQ had been a goldmine they would still be flying it. As for AH, what utter nonsense - IF it happens it will be yet another Hellenic, Aerosvit, Armavia - blink and you miss it.

Fact is, as of right now, BHX has but two new confirmed routes for summer '13 which are ZB summer season low frequency leisure flights to BOD and SPU as well as the planned increase of TK flights to IST. That's it. People are focusing so much on long haul dreams they seem to have forgotten that for summer '13:

1. All BE French seasonal routes have been dropped (low frequency and short season admittedly but still more than a few thousand pax lost)

2. City routes recently dropped to GOT, LYS, PRG and LIS have not been replaced

3. There are increasingly (and worryingly) more capacity cuts on legacy carrier routes (LX to ZRH, LH to TXL for example)

4. There are still gaps in both city and leisure focused destinations in Europe.

Positivity yes - but cmbined with realism. BHX is certainly not stagnating but it is failing to attract new airlines (last was TK in 2009?) and cannot seem to attract a based carrier that will commit to an aggressive expansion of airframes and destinations at a BHX base, although ZB have shown commitment to long term growth. We also need to remember that annual pax numbers are still well below 9 million and the airport has been overtaken by LTN and EDI in the past 24 months in annual pax totals.

Don't get me wrong I am very pro BHX and have flown at least once a month from there during 2012 on business and leisure. The investment in pax facilities has transformed the place very much for the better. And I would be the first to be shouting off the rooftops if QR for example did start but until there are either a raft of new carriers and destinations announced or a based carrier that really takes the lead and develops a 10+ based airframe operation BHX will continue to simply stumble along rather than growing in leaps and bounds which it should be given its first class pax facilities and central location.

[chinapattern]

Well said GF! All this recent talk of will QR ever start, will AA/AI/US ever comeback and heaven help us the coming of Air Algerie is getting a bit tedious. The problem is that many people believe the runway extension will solve all BHX's problems. It won't. But while I do think the extension will make the airport a more lucrative option for some carriers, the basic fact remains that their are gaping holes in BHX's short haul market which I think should be addressed before chasing after fantasy routes such as SFO or SIN just to grab a bit of media attention. The answer to turning BHX's fortunes around in the short term lies with Jet2 IMO.

[CabinCrewe]

"Continental seems to be the only one that has worked, and that always seems to be full"
Well not if the CAA stats for Nov are to be believed....

[Alex321]

But what would Jet2 bring that Monarch/Thomson/Thomas Cook/FR/BE dont already offer?

Monarch have gone from 4 BHX based A/C in 2011 to 6 Monarch and 2 wet leased in 2012 and 9 Monarch aircraft planned for 2013 plus increased frequencies and two knew routes (Bordeaux and Split). Just dont see what Jet2 could really bring other than maybe a new route or two but surely if they needed serving Tom/TC/ZB/ would be serving them.

[chinapattern]

Despite MON picking up a lot of the slack from bmibaby, I still feel that their is room for another based carrier at BHX. Ryanair aren't really interested and the cynic in me believes they only keep their BHX base running so they have somewhere to park their spare aircraft in the winter months. EZY have had plenty of opportunity to start a base at BHX in the past but don't seem interested either.

Jet 2 have gone from strength to strength in their existing bases and BHX has often been rumored as a potential new station. The likes of Budapest, Prague, Tolouse, Lisbon, Pisa, a few underserved bucket and spade routes and perhaps something like Madrid or even Tel Aviv would be good to see. Like I say, it's just my two cents but I think these kind of goals are more realistic than chasing somewhere like ORD.

[Fairdealfrank]

Quote: "AI BHX to Amritsar.. Air India said made large amounts of money.. only stopped to save landing rights at LHR..."

Don't understand how the two are connected. There is a fairly liberal (if not open skies) agreement between the UK and India. It was, for example, liberal enough to allow BA, BD, VS, AI and 9W on LHR-BOM (BD dropped out and IT came on later) with BA and 9W twice daily.



Quote: "Plans to rename BHX Ozzy Osbourne International Airport anyone?"

Hmmm, Heathrow-Dick Turpin Airport ?
Heathrow-The Black Hole Airport? (see below)

No, let's not waste money on frivolity, leave it as the much more sensible Birmingham-Elmdon.

Why not name our railway stations and football grounds after celebrities first? Once we've made ourselves look silly nationally then maybe we can make ourselves a laughing stock globally.

Quote: "Why the families UK home for many many years has been leafy Buckinghamshire and close to the end of the metropolitan tube line "Chalfont St Giles"

A stones throw from the "blackhole"

Los Angeles was also home for a while, IIRC.

Quote: "As for India well lets say combined political interference global recession (In relevant tech industries) and shear weakness of all airline candidates will prevent any UK regional service for some years.
Kingfisher - Effectively bust
Air India - Corrupt political tool and also broke
Jet - More concerned with *A membership and deciding whether to remain in Brussels or move to Munich."

Yes, forget about AI to ATQ coming back, forget about IT and/or 9W starting up, never going to happen. Why? because it's too late.

The low yield VFR traffic to northern India has been sown up by EK in particular (offering multiple destinations in India via DXB) and, to a lesser extent, TK. Doubtless QR and EY will be on this bandwagon before AI gets it act together.

As for the premium business and high yield, that heads further south these days to Bombay, as always, and the growing cities of Bangalore and Hyderabad and Madras.

Over the years there has been a change, a move to the south and nonstop UK-India flights now reflect this: they go to BLR, HYD and MAA rather than ATQ and CCU. BOM is the main centre for business finance, and commerce, DEL is the capital and the centre of the tourist trade, so they have always had the most flights and this won't change.

As far as BHX and the sub-continent is concerned, would expect Pakistan and Bangladesh to be more important direct destinations. As far as India is concerned, LHR appears to have its routes sown up.

[LGS6753]

BHX can't really expect any new investment, especially of the "10 based airframes" type at present, and even in the foreseeable future.

"It's the economy, stupid", and that is the top and bottom of the lack of progress. The West Midlands certainly has its success stories, but the economy just is not as vibrant as London's, and even that is pretty pedestrian at present.

BHX wasn't helped by their failure to secure a based loco during the loco boom (about 1995-2007). The strategy of sticking with established full service carriers has had some success looking at the range of current operators, but the lack of a based loco has been, in retrospect, disadvantageous. Don't forget that Baby came late to BHX, and was not the best-managed company. MyTravelLite was a flawed concept that failed to survive consolidation in the IT industry, so the only saviour has been Monarch.

I can't see much more than trend levels of growth over the next few years, unless someone with more money than sense latches on to the extended runway with a long-haul operation.

[GayFriendly]

But what would Jet2 bring that Monarch/Thomson/Thomas Cook/FR/BE dont already offer?

Quite a lot! I do hope that you don't work for the BHX Marketing Team....;)

Looking at the current Jet2 map, La Rochelle, Bergerac, Geneva, Marrakech, Sardinia, Pisa, Budapest (forgot in my previous post that we are about to lose that aswell), Prague, Corfu, Zante, Kos, Rhodes, Tel Aviv are all served by Jet2 but not by airlines from BHX. I'm not saying all of these would work but there is enough selection of city break and beach destinations for a two a/c base?

Personally I would prefer an EZY base but talking about an EZY BHX base is almost as dull as the when will QR start question.

Why not name our railway stations and football grounds after celebrities first?

I think BHX would greatly benefit from Birmingham International station being renamed to Birmingham Airport

[crewmeal]

I think BHX would greatly benefit from Birmingham International station being renamed to Birmingham Airport

I quite agree. When you think about it all airports are international so why state the obvious? There again there are some strange airport names. Bristol was built out of an RAF base in a village called Lulsgate Bottom in North Somerset. "Welcome to Lulsgate Bottom where the local time is......" Then again Calcutta's airport is named Dum Dum which is an area north west of city!

[Alex321]

Nope I dont work for BHX

Looking at that route list that Jet2 do a fair few are covered by existing carriers at BHX

Geneva - ZB, BE
Marrakech -Tom
Budapest - BE
Prague - BE
Corfu -ZB(charter), Tom, TC
Zante - ZB(charter), Tom
Kos - Tom
Rhodes - BE, Tom

That was found from a brief look on there websites. What would ideally be better for BHX would be continued growth of the likes of ZB to Antayla, Friedrichshafen (winter) and maybe some ZB Rhodes, Corfu, Zante, Heraklion and Kos rather than charter, maybe some more mid to long destions wouldn't go a miss such as Goa, Mombassa, Tobago etc aswell.

Continued growth is occuring, Monarchs winter 2013/4 programme has been released with an extra SSH, ACE, FAO, TFS, LCA a week + GIB(3 per week - New Route) I can really only speak for ZB and not other carriers.

[ajfreeman]

Budapest and Prague by BE???

Since when?

[canberra97]

Planeaddict

Regarding the possibilty of seeing three 777s at BHX from three different international airlines I think your find that London Gatwick does have three international airlines 777s tails in together at the same time and all in the North Terminal as in EK, KE, VN along with BA of course although KE is seasonal.

[Skipness One Echo]

Airlines like US Airways could have worked well if they sorted out these landing charges and, if they maybe decided to make it year round and had been more confident in it .
What do you mean? They tried it for one season and passenger yield and volume were below expectations. It really was that simple, if it had been wider issues they'd have persevered. Indeed they have now expanded at SNN and dropped LGW having remained seasonal at GLA. Being "confident in it" had absolutely nothing to do with it, demand wasn't there to make enough money.

[call100]

When you think about it all airports are international so why state the obvious?
Birmingham dropped 'International' from it's title some time ago when they did the re-branding. It's just plain old Birmingham airport now......The Airport management is not exactly pushing for the Station to be renamed to reflect the change

[FRatSTN]

I wouldn't like a Jet2 base in Birmingham for a couple of reasons:
- It would harm what they have successfully built up at East Midlands in recent years in which they are very pleased with the performance of and in fact since the new base opened in 2010, it has had another aircraft added to it every summer (now 4 for 2013).
- Monarch have recently expanded Birmingham and Jet2 is simply not needed as the two airlines are very comparible and quite simply quite similar in what they offer. Jet2 wouldn't bring anything new to Birmingham and would be surprised if they wanted them as they would only upset Monarch as well as their own base at East Midlands Airport.

The airlines never stop surprising us though so who knows? Monarch have started from Jet2 airports (East Midlands and Leeds/Bradford) so maybe Jet2 will start going into Monarch airports but I really wouldn't like to see Jet2 in Birmingham because as I say, it would bring nothing new and would just cause harm elsewhere. I'd prefer a London base, preferably Stansted after it's sold off as only Ryanair serves a lot of the key routes like Alicante and Barcelona next year, but what is the liklihood of them going to London airports???

[Planeaddict]

Hmm, BHX has a track record of attaining airlines which either serve none, or one other, UK destination. Armavia, Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan and Air India are examples.

Even though Shaheen Air was indeed a rumour, I can see them starting a UK destination in the future with their new A330s. Whether BHX should/would be that destination, I'm not entirely sure, it all depends on how well the PIA flights are performing. Anyone have any statistics for those flights?

[vectisman]

Birmingham Airport thread seems to have dominated this forum over the Christmas period. Quite interesting to read at times, but some suggestions avoid economic reality. I believe that Birmingham, like several other regional airports, can have an effective network of short and medium haul routes plus a few viable long haul ones. (All of these will be mainly O&D) Plus of course feeding continental hubs. The idea of Birmingham as another UK hub is just a dream. The UK hub will remain at Heathrow as economic reality dictates. Gatwick may also develop more long haul routes with more connecting services but will never rival Heathrow.
There is nothing unique about this situation as most other European carriers also use regional services to feed their hubs. The Middle Eastern carriers do exactly the same.

V.

[RealFish]

'.....There is nothing unique about this situation as most other European carriers also use regional services to feed their hubs. The Middle Eastern carriers do exactly the same.'

One exception being Iberia / Madrid. BHX pax miss out on onward connections to Central and South America; increasingly important business and leisure destinations.

But of course IAG, it seems, would sooner feed regional trafic through their BA, LHR hub. Odd!

[getonittt]

Call 100

Birmingham dropped 'International' from it's title some time ago when they did the re-branding. It's just plain old Birmingham airport now......The Airport management is not exactly pushing for the Station to be renamed to reflect the change

Actually they are, in their recent submission to the transports select committee's enquiry they state the international station should be renamed, to save you wading through it here is the relevant pasage

a)Rename Birmingham International station "Birmingham Airport" – the station is only two minutes from the Airport on a free air-rail link, but this is not indicated on www.nationalrail.co.uk (http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/), leading to confusion by passengers of the location of the Airport and ease of access by rail. Renaming the station would provide more accurate information to the consumer.

[groundhogbhx]

If you travel on the Air Rail Link Fiona does announce it as Birmingham Airport Station instead of Birmingham International.

[NJTCF]

Any one shed any light on the above airline and there proposed flights in to BHX in January. They are using a 767-300 and to and from Imam Khomieni Iran:ok:.

Looking at the planned movements. They are operating.

Outbound on a Monday + Wednesday at 2100pm.
Inbound on a Tuesday + Thursday at 1200pm.

They have airport slots booked for the whole of January.

The aircraft positions in and out to Lisbon before and after flights.

[bazzab68]

Could be the return of Mahan air but using a subbed a/c instead of there own metal to avoid the issues there planes have with EU travel.

Other than that I have no idea..

Barry

[Planeaddict]

Any one shed any light on the above airline and there proposed flights in to BHX in January. They are using a 767-300 and to and from Imam Khomieni Iran.

Looking at the planned movements. They are operating.

Outbound on a Monday + Wednesday at 2100pm.
Inbound on a Tuesday + Thursday at 1200pm.

They have airport slots booked for the whole of January.

The aircraft positions in and out to Lisbon before and after flights.

Where did you hear this news?

As the user above assumed, maybe they are covering for Mahan Air because they've apparently terminated BHX completely.

[BHX5DME]

Mahan Air are NOT involved in the Euro Atlantic flights to Tehran.

[GayFriendly]

Why did Mahan leave all their signage and pictures up at the ticket deask they once occupied? Seems strange to maintain a presence even though they finished flying from BHX a few years ago.

As a wild stab perhaps the Euro Atlantic flights are a series of one off charters to Iran? Although don't many airlines apply for slots at different airports then never use them?

[nigel osborne]

Gayfriendly

The flts appear in the BHX own timetable for Jan so Im sure they have booked the slots.

Whether they turn up and for how long thats another matter !

Nigel

[chinapattern]

Were Mahan actually banned from flying into the UK in the end?

[rutankrd]

No the UK can't ban Mahan unilaterally - that needs EU agreement.

Mahan operations have been lifted from the EU blacklist .

However they have terminated the Birmingham service to avoid having further aircraft seized by bailiffs acting on court orders to enforce trade sanctions.

[chinapattern]

Quite funny how Iran/Mahan are being discussed at the moment as they've just taken delivery of two ex-LH A340's. A few years back they planned on leasing an A340 from HiFly which they intended to operate on services to BHX and KUL. The deal never came off but I wonder if Mahan we're still flying into BHX would we be seeing the airports first regularly scheduled A340?

[Planeaddict]

Quite funny how Iran/Mahan are being discussed at the moment as they've just taken delivery of two ex-LH A340's. A few years back they planned on leasing an A340 from HiFly which they intended to operate on services to BHX and KUL. The deal never came off but I wonder if Mahan we're still flying into BHX would we be seeing the airports first regularly scheduled A340?

Possibly if the load factors were decent on the past Mahan Air flights on the A310 and if the runway could handle it.

[Burpbot]

If memory serves, Mahan were not banned for been dangerous! But the flights stopped due to UN sanctions placed on Iran.

[ZULUBOY]

Couple of questions:

1/ Used the TXL service for the third time since it started. Was rammed on the 27th December outbound and New Years Day return. Both previous occasions were also very full. Pete's analysis also gives good load factors.
So, my naive question - when BA Connect were on this route, why were there only a dozen or so other passengers with me on a 50 seater plane? The most I ever paid with BA was £150 return so it can't be a cost thing. Better advertising from Lufthansa? Ryanair now only operating 3 times (ish) a week from EMA to SXF (sure they were daily when BA operated)?

2/ When will I see a difference with Germanwings operating the flight, i.e. when will I have to pay for my luggage, drinks etc

[rutankrd]

One of Bacon's biggest competitors was BA itself.

BA would steal away almost all corporate business.

The Brazilian jets used by Bacon were also too business heavy

[Wycombe]

Looks like some BE flights to regional France have now been loaded from BHX for S13, to Avignon, Bergerac, Brest, La Rochelle and Perpignan.

Bergerac gets 4 weekly during the Summer peak, Brest 3 weekly, La Rochelle 2 (Sat, Sun) and Avignon and Perpignan 1 a week on a Saturday.

[Daza]

Great news! Many on here didnt think these flights would return. Some of the flghts have a slightly longer season too. I have just booked Birmingham-La Rochelle in September at a very competitive price! :ok:

[ZULUBOY]

Much maligned but delivering what he is employed to do

http://www.birminghampost.net/news/west-midlands-news/2013/01/03/profits-soar-51-at-birmingham-airport-after-a-year-of-cutbacks-65233-32540206/

[GayFriendly]

Wow with that increase in profits perhaps they can now lower the landing fees and get Easy in ;) Seriously, compared to other UK airports BHX has done well to ride the financial storm as well as it has: I know this has come at the expense of jobs but it does now have some of the best pax facilities of all UK regional airports and cash in the bank to safeguard for the future, that I guess is what an MD and their team is employed to do.

Great news about BE French flights, I really thought these had gone for good.

[GayFriendly]

I see that BE BHX-DBV is back too, once a week on Sat from 5th May but starngely doesn't operate for most of the school holidays finishing on the 7th Jul and starting again on 25th Aug.....strange

[compton3bravo]

Well done Mr Kehoe a nice 100,000 pounds Brucie Bonus after getting rid of 29 employees who have lost their jobs. You must be so proud. I hope you wished them all a happy new year!

[justplanecrazy84]

Yeah it's not nice that people have lost their jobs but what is the guy suppose to do? keep them employed and and cause bhx further problems meaning a lot more people lose their jobs? It's a business sacrafices have to be made those sacrafices have made a big change with the finances of the airport and have generated the money to help with the extension of the runway which will make more jobs plus with the maintenance (yes i know it's monarch and not bhx directly) even more jobs will be created.

[BobBHX]

Just back from hols and catching up on the board.

Combining two topics recently reported on:-

1 Lengthy delays at passport control: and

2 Let's try and get 3 777s on the tarmac at the same time.

BHX needs to get its infrastructure in place before there is any expansion of passenger numbers. I know the airport managers are at the mercy of UKBA but the service delivered at immigration is pathetic (lack of staff; what seems to be a deliberate refusal to make use of the e-gates). If there was a third 777 full arriving at the same time as EK and PIA then the immigration queue would be right down to the end of the new pier and, in all probability, they would have to prevent passengers from de-boarding aircraft until the queues had died down.

[Planeaddict]

When's the planned start date for this EuroAtlantic service?

Plus, I reckon they do expand the terminal to cater for extra passengers, especially when the runway is completed. Surely they'd have to start now.

[nigel osborne]

Plane Addict;

The current terminal is capable of taking over 17 million passengers according to BHX, so no need for any expansion in the terminal for some time.

The next planned additions are a walkway pier at the back of the 70/80s in line with the railway track and a coulpe of fingers off eurohub with airbridges if required.

Thats from the airports latest future updates and appear on some recent drawings of the airport, who knows when/if they will be added

Also more moveable airbridges on the 40s which are rigid at present.

However the baggage reclaim surely needs more belts, and agree more staff required to man all the security points.

Nigel

[Centre cities]

BHX needs to get its infrastructure in place before there is any expansion of passenger numbers. I know the airport managers are at the mercy of UKBA but the service delivered at immigration is pathetic (lack of staff; what seems to be a deliberate refusal to make use of the e-gates). If there was a third 777 full arriving at the same time as EK and PIA then the immigration queue would be right down to the end of the new pier and, in all probability, they would have to prevent passengers from de-boarding aircraft until the queues had died down.

Regarding the above comment I have to agree. Returning from Malaga in the summer around midnight the terminal 2 arrivals area was closed, the passengers were left on the aircraft for 20 minutes whilst buses were arranged. There then followed a tour of the apron before we were deposited at the end of the international pier on terminal 1 to walk to immigration. It was easy to see why we were left at the end of the pier, the queue was snaking along the pier and the escalators were closed because the queue stretched far beyond them. Staff were allowing passengers down the stairs only when there was room for them at the bottom.

Most of my experiences at BHX have been good, certainly better than just up the M42 but they really need to sort the immigration area out (get rid of the stairs and install a ramp) and more baggage belts are desperately required.

Terminal 2 is a tip and this needs sorting as soon as possible as it not to the standard of terminal 1.

The BHX experience 7/10 but would be 9/10 if they sorted the arrivals.

Centre cities .

[Guest 112233]

As an element of economic activity - five hundred or so employees seems relatively quite small. I suppose most employment at the terminal is with contracted providers.

Of course the purpose of an Airport is to get people where they are going as quickly as possible but think in social terms of those numbers employed at big Tesco/Sansbury stores etc and the value of entities like this comes into perspective.

CAT III

[Edit: how do these figures compare with similar sized facilities in the UK ? EDI, GLA and LUT]

[simoncorbett]

Terminal 2/ euro hub does now have a new wood laminate floor replacing the terrible carpet .... A Big improvement ...but the inside is still very tired
I did think they were even going to close or mothball it recently....
Shame they can't do it up and make it star star alliance terminal

[Guest 112233]

I last used it to Belfast in the days when Mearsk used 1-11 500's - packed aeroplane and the terminal was grey in colour but perfectly acceptable. If its been left for 10 years I bet its "tired".

Dose this apparent neglect indicate a limited and diminishing commitment by the current user airlines paying to use the facility, that any competent management would leave to decline to the point of "unfit for public access" as services are progressively withdrawn.

In business terms perhaps the terminal is reaching the end of its working life and is more economic to withdraw from and demolish.

Perhaps the associated apron space could be used for a spur from the main terminal - Just an Idea. Simon I missed your post re the laminate flooring originally)

In retrospect I think the quality of user experience does influence passenger choice when booking flights

CAT III

[NJTCF]

I think with Euro Atlantic they just requested Airport slots. But are not going to use them. Have Spoken to a couple of people and they knew nothing:confused:

Air Algerie. Heard again this is a good possibility. 2-3 flights a week. Using 737-800. Due to slots at LHR. Start date muted Early March :ok:

A fence has gone up around where the new Monarch hangar is to be built. Stand 506 is now closed and stand 505 has restriction. Taxiway Kilo is closed while the hanger is built.

The new compass bay is ready.

Adhoc Freight movements are very quiet. December on a whole was exceptionally quiet this year. Bizjet traffic also seems to be quiet.

Anyone know how Eurojet are doing?

[Navpi]

Looks like EK going double daily at Manchester with A380, which might free up a 777 for bhx ?

Q re infrastructure, can BHX handle A380 ?

Parking, pax throughput etc ?

That said cannot help thinking money people living North of BHX who may have used BHX wil head North.

[Centre cities]

I think for the front end it depends on the price, especially as they take you to and from the airport and you do not have to worry about getting there. a lot of companies are now very price sensitive.

Centre cities

[Heathrow Harry]

problem is that UKBA are Govt funded so all you get are cuts

plus they are hammered unless they crawl all over anyone in the least bit suspicious and so the times go up and up and up

Singapore only tales 10 minutes max..................

[Planeaddict]

Looks like EK going double daily at Manchester with A380, which might free up a 777 for bhx ?

Are you suggesting EK use that 'free' 777 to BHX on a third daily flight if there was to be one?

Air Algerie. Heard again this is a good possibility. 2-3 flights a week. Using 737-800. Due to slots at LHR. Start date muted Early March

Just had a look at their list of destinations. Seems they do serve Madrid but no one will want to fly south to fly north. The only other UK destination they serve is LHR so it's another one for BHX that MAN don't serve. Doesn't seem like it'll be viable for connections - who would use this service?

[groundhogbhx]

Where are these fixed bridges on the 40's?? All the bridges at BHX that are operational (Stands 1,2 and 3 are fixed in position for FR) are drivable, the last fixed bridges were stands 54, 55 and 56 on the old International Pier and were scrapped when that pier came down in 2009! :ugh:

[Evanelpus]

Looks like EK going double daily at Manchester with A380, which might free up a 777 for bhx ?

Is there enough capacity to sustain a third service?

[justplanecrazy84]

Just seen that UA are upgrading a lot of there european 757 flights to the 767 are they starting to get rid of their 757 if so how far down the line do you think BHX be?

[chinapattern]

The 757's have still got plenty of life in them yet; I believe the recent upgrades to 767's are simply due to increased demand and United re-structuring the combined fleet; some of the pre-merger UA birds are now switching to some of the old CO routes and vice versa. I'd say BHX would eventually become a 787 route if UA convert the options into firm orders.

[nigel osborne]

NAVPI

Re BHX and handling an A380... its a good question..

We did have the EK one in and it fitted nicely on stand 54C last time, might even have A380 parking line painted up ?.

We do now have a A380 tug (although told it was bust recently) We don't have 2nd deck catering loaders,they were borrowed from LHR on its first visit as was the tug.

CAA have approved BHX to handle A380s and theres an ICAO A380 taxiing chart available for BHX .

So at short notice yes we could handle one on diversion, but probably couldn't turn one around quickly enough on a regular basis at present as to not disrupt other flights without all the equipment.

Nigel

[chinapattern]

We did have the EK one in and it fitted nicely on stand 55C last time, might even have A380 parking line painted up ?.

Although I think it was stand 54, you're indeed right it does have 380 markings. There is a picture of it on the BHX flight guide blog.

[Planeaddict]

Maybe if EK end up diverting into BHX enroute to MAN, we'll get a better idea as to whether the A380 can really cope (when it comes to landing of course).

Regarding United, they have operated the 764 on a few occasions to BHX and from what I read, one of those flights were nearly full, so doesn't seem too out of reach.

[Centre cities]

I do not see what the problem with an A380 is.

The official charts for BHX have Airbus 380 approved taxiways marked on them, it fits on the stand which I believe is marked and the terminal can cope with the passengers. It fits better than the Wardair 747 on the old terminal with the 707 steps and the Herald steps welded onto the top. It is a good job that Health and Safety did not exist in those days.

[chinapattern]

Regarding United, they have operated the 764 on a few occasions to BHX and from what I read, one of those flights were nearly full, so doesn't seem too out of reach.

Where did you read this? AFAIK the 764 only subbed for a tech 757.

[radar707]

BHX is approved as a diversion alternate for Emirates only due to taxiway restrictions. Their crews practice diverting in the Sims. No othether A380 operator is approved for diversions to Brumm

[ATNotts]

This urban myth (that BHX cannot handle the 380) seems to have taken over from the urban myth of the latter half of the last century (that you couldn't go transatlantic non stop from BHX) which persisted long after 757s were ploughing their way across the pond!

Silly questions from today's spotters do the airport no great service, as all sorts of equally dim journalists also trawl these forums and believe almost everything they read! :rolleyes:

[Planeaddict]

I do not see what the problem with an A380 is.

The only problem I personally see is, simply, the runway length. Do you think with a near full load, or even full load, it could manage to take off? Don't see the harm with having to use almost the entire runway.

Where did you read this? AFAIK the 764 only subbed for a tech 757.

That's what I meant. But still, could you see them operating with a 767 in the future, or at least a larger aircraft if the demand supports it?

No othether A380 operator is approved for diversions to Brumm

No other A380 operator is likely to divert to BHX anyway, if we're talking about the likes of Singapore which operate to LHR. They are likely to divert to LGW or MAN.

[chinapattern]

That's what I meant. But still, could you see them operating with a 767 in the future, or at least a larger aircraft if the demand supports it?

Doubt it, the 767's are way to premium heavy for BHX's market and United are replacing them with the 787's anyway. BHX will probably be one the last 757's destinations and when they're gone, who knows.

[OltonPete]

planespotters.net is currently showing: -

764 - C35 Y200 or C20 Y236

763 -F36 Y210 plus others with FCY

788 - C36 Y183

I couldn't see a 767 with CY other than the 762 but I thought they were introducing this on the 763 for transatlantics.

As you can see nothing really fits the BHX flight although C20 on the 764 would be useful but 236Y is a lot of seats to fill.

As Chinapattern has stated the 757's are staying for a few years yet although some are 18 years plus and might disappear soon. However some are only 12/13 years old, giving United plenty of time to change the transatlantic config on the 763/788 to suit BHX, EDI, GLA, BFS, SNN, DUB, MAN etc.

Pete

[rutankrd]

The two class 763 aircraft were former Hawaii/West Coast vacation fleet.

A sub fleet of 14 aircraft and not those that have been plying the atlantic for many years.

The dusting includes with 30 lie-flat BusinessFirst seats, 49 Economy Plus and 135 regular economy seats.

And they are staying for some time.

They are being deployed on routes replacing the now removed business heavy and former Continental B762 models to such places as Zurich/Milan/Amsterdam/Madrid.

They are not planned 75W replacements.

Manchester may see them for the boost in box uplift, however it's going to be some time before Birmingham is in line.

[adfly]

Wikipedia (salt pinched) says one of their 764 configurations is 236Y/20J so not a huge jump in premium capacity verses the current 752, although there's quite a few extra Y seats to fill. But assuming that layout is still around in a few years time I don't see why United couldn't send it to BHX even if it were only for the summer.

[OltonPete]

rutankrd

Thank you for that, I had heard it would be 30 plus for BF and as you say BHX will be way down the list (if ever) with that kind of config.

I would love to know what is the BF take-up on full fares as the seat map regular shows it full from BHX & MAN but I realise over the year there are probably loads of FF upgrades but I wonder if eventually (assuming all the post 757 services continue) that they will be tempted to change the BF config to 20-24.

Pete

[justplanecrazy84]

Spitfire crash landing closes East Midlands Airport runway - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/9786243/Spitfire-crash-landing-closes-East-Midlands-Airport-runway.html)

[hillwalker2004]

Quite a few interesting mentions of BHX from Willie Walsh at the Transport select committee from a few weeks ago. I know some of this has already been touched upon but thought I'd cut and paste a few specific bits.

Q248 Iain Stewart: You did have a regional hub at Birmingham for some time and then you discontinued that. Can you segregate the transfer market into long-haul intercontinental against European transfers? If so, could you then restart a secondary hub at Birmingham or some other airport?
Willie Walsh: I have looked at some of the figures. Manchester airport is probably the best example. I know Birmingham has ambition and has expanded its runway, but from memory-I can probably check the figures and I have them here somewhere-the passenger traffic at Birmingham has been in decline for the last few years. I don’t think an extended runway is going to make a big difference there, to be honest with you.

Re: WW support for HS2.
Q256 Karen Lumley: But don’t you see any aspect for Birmingham Airport, for example, where people would come out of the north of London and it would be easier to get to Birmingham to use that than to go to Heathrow?
Willie Walsh: Yes, if you have the flights from Birmingham. But, if you want to fly to China, you are not going to have flights from Birmingham. If you want to fly to thousands of destinations, you are not going to have those flights from Birmingham, which is primarily a short-haul leisure market. That is the nature of it if you look at the passenger profile flying from Birmingham. Is that going to change? It might change a little but it is not going to change an awful lot.


Q257 Karen Lumley: There is no way you see yourself going back to Birmingham.
Willie Walsh: No, I don’t. Certainly I don’t see any business case or business justification for us to operate long-haul flights from Birmingham. It may attract a couple of other foreign airlines to operate into Birmingham, but not on a scale that will make any difference and certainly not on a scale that would justify the investment in HS2. If the business case for HS2 is to connect to Birmingham airport, I would really worry. If there is a business case to connect to Birmingham airport, there must be a business case that is 20, 30, 50 or 100 times more robust to connect to Heathrow. So I just don’t see it.

[Daza]

hillwalker2004 wrote Q257 Karen Lumley: There is no way you see yourself going back to Birmingham.
Willie Walsh: No, I don’t. Certainly I don’t see any business case or business justification for us to operate long-haul flights from Birmingham. It may attract a couple of other foreign airlines to operate into Birmingham, but not on a scale that will make any difference and certainly not on a scale that would justify the investment in HS2. If the business case for HS2 is to connect to Birmingham airport, I would really worry. If there is a business case to connect to Birmingham airport, there must be a business case that is 20, 30, 50 or 100 times more robust to connect to Heathrow. So I just don’t see it.

Did anyone really expect BA to return to the UK regions? Future prosperity and growth of Birmingham Airport will have nothing to do with BA.:ugh: Willie Walsh desperately needs Heathrow to be expanded as his airline is almost wholly dependent upon it, he doesn't want anything else.:}

Daza

[Evanelpus]

Q257 Karen Lumley: There is no way you see yourself going back to Birmingham.
Willie Walsh: No, I don’t.

Well, there's no room for misunderstanding of his answer. I tend to agree with Daza, LHR is where it's at for BA for the forseeable future.

[nigel osborne]

Chinapattern,

Thanks for confirming the A380 markings on stand 54C. and agree entirely with you and Olton Pete, 764 has too many business seats for BHX markets.

In general folks

Without 2nd deck loaders Im told by a handler it would take an extra 45 mins to carry all catering etc from the main deck to upper :confused:.

However I can't see BHX handlers buying these ultra high loaders unless they get a confirmed regular A380 flight from Emirates, must be very expensive.

Does BHX have an A380 tow bar..think they are very expensive too

I can see British Airways nominating BHX as a diversion airport when they get their A380s soon..not that it means they will divert here as their 747/777s have ignored BHX for nearly 2 yrs for some reason ?

Nigel

[GayFriendly]

Future prosperity and growth of Birmingham Airport will have nothing to do with BA

Totally agree with you Daza, it's such a shame that for a long time BHX managers DID think BA was the future for prosperity and growth and that it was not in those pesky loco start ups, ahh hindsight is such a wonderful thing :) although BHX has come a long way since BA's departure

I have heard however from a trusty source that BA will be doing some A380 flight training runs through BHX so at least they think BHX is good for something!

[simoncorbett]

Nigel
I do seem to remember I read that all of the EK 380,s carry a tow bar on board...just in case
Also I can't see Bhx needing all the equipment at the moment, but I am sure if EK have told Bhx they will use a380,s on regular flights that they would get all the equipment needed
I do think that we have now 'enough ' equipment and suitable taxiways etc to handle diversions of EK only 380 aircraft


Simon

[crewmeal]

As the runway is being extended why don't they do something with the taxiways as well? It seems logical that they need widening especially at the Sheldon end of 33.

BBC News - Emirates jet stuck in grass at Birmingham Airport (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-12051512)

Here is an example of why they should be widened.

[LAX_LHR]

I have heard however from a trusty source that BA will be doing some A380 flight training runs through BHX so at least they think BHX is good for something!

I can categorically state that BA are NOT sending the A380 to BHX, neither for training or diversions.

The designated diversion points for BA and the A380 fleet will be LGW/MAN/PIK only. STN may be used if at a push or for a particular type of diversion that STN has been designated for.

[Planeaddict]

their 747/777s have ignored BHX for nearly 2 yrs for some reason ?

Probably because it hasn't snowed as badly as 2010? :D

I'm pretty sure they will modify the taxiways, but I think that'll only be more beneficial for the A380 and possibly 747.

I take it Air Algerie isn't going ahead, as someone mentioned they had only booked slots?

[ATNotts]

I'm pretty sure they will modify the taxiways, but I think that'll only be more beneficial for the A380 and possibly 747.

If I recall correctly, the 773 has a longer wheelbase (sorry for that extremely untechnical term!!) than either the 747 or 380, so there would be a greater issue with manoeuverability of the former than either of the "Jumbos".

747s have been regular visitors to BHX for nearly 3 decades, the dearth of the type in recent years has more to do with the economics of operating big twins than an unwillingness of operators to put them through BHX.

Diversions are now also rare occurences because of Cat IIIB operations at most major airports.

Were a carrier to decide to opperate regular services with the A380 I feel confident that the handling agents would ensure the appropriate equipment would be available, but exactly who is going invest in such equipment "just in case"? Certainly not commercial operations that expect / require to turn a profit.

[Planeaddict]

747s have been regular visitors to BHX for nearly 3 decades, the dearth of the type in recent years has more to do with the economics of operating big twins than an unwillingness of operators to put them through BHX.

My only theory is the runway. When PIA began, the 747 proved quite popular but it couldn't fly direct (I doubt it would have been able to do so with half the load) so they had to fly via Copenhagen. Hellenic managed fine due to the fact they were only flying to Athens but load factors were poor. Maybe at some point they'll manage a regular 747 service.

[chinapattern]

I take it Air Algerie isn't going ahead, as someone mentioned they had only booked slots?

When PIA began, the 747 proved quite popular but it couldn't fly direct (I doubt it would have been able to do so with half the load) so they had to fly via Copenhagen. Hellenic managed fine due to the fact they were only flying to Athens but load factors were poor. Maybe at some point they'll manage a regular 747 service.

The 747 is a slowly dying breed so the chances of any airline starting regular services are very slim to say the least. I know as a keen spotter you would like to see a whole host of exotic wide-bodies lined up down the international pier (hey, I'm sure we all would) but realistically it's not going to happen any time soon. When route announcements are made I'm sure you'll hear about them here first; I admire your enthusiasm but asking the same questions every few days won't make things happen any faster. :)

[crewmeal]

If I recall correctly, the 773 has a longer wheelbase (sorry for that extremely untechnical term!!) than either the 747 or 380, so there would be a greater issue with manoeuverability of the former than either of the "Jumbos".

All the more reason for management to pull their finger out and upgrade the taxiways. The 777 is the future for most long haul carriers for the next 20 years.

I can categorically state that BA are NOT sending the A380 to BHX, neither for training or diversions.

Many of the comments recently in this thread are purely spectators pipe dreams.

[Skipness One Echo]

Speaking of B747s, wasn't Toronto served non stop with Wardair? Is Pakistan really all that further on a high density service?

[Planeaddict]

Speaking of B747s, wasn't Toronto served non stop with Wardair? Is Pakistan really all that further on a high density service?

I presume the aircraft was slightly smaller than the 762/3 that was used to Pakistan, and the flights were probably not being filled.

[Skipness One Echo]

You presume wrongly....

[crewmeal]

Speaking of B747s, wasn't Toronto served non stop with Wardair? Is Pakistan really all that further on a high density service?

Yes back in the early 80's when the present terminal was opened Wardair had a successful 747-200 service direct to YYZ which operated about 4 times a week. The operation finished when CP air took them over and ultimately Air Canada became the only Canadian long haul operator at the time. AC then operated a schedule via Preswick, but like everything else it didn't last.

[Daza]

Air Canada deliberately flooded the market (I have a relative who worked for AC at the time) so as to see off CP Air and Wardair.
Following the absorption of CP Air (Canadian Pacific) into Air Canada in the late 80s and the sale of Wardair to Canadin Airlines, Air Canada promptly dropped their Birmingham services. Birmingham has a large Sikh community as does Toronto and this with the obvious business links I am amazed that there aren't more flights to Canada. I wonder if Air Canada Rouge looked at Birmingham? Maybe put off by the ridiculously high landing fees or the 7+ daily flights ex LHR down the M40.

On an interesting note about Trans-Atlantic flying, I was looking at flights to Orlando from Birmingham for my brother and in laws and was amazed to see just how expensive BHX-SFB was in comparison to EMA and MAN. On some dates in July up to £130 more per person, it would appear that tour operators are using price to dissuade people to fly on the once weekly Birmingham service! Orlando along with Toronto are certainly routes that could see more capacity from Birmingham. :ugh:

[Evanelpus]

how expensive BHX-SFB was in comparison to EMA and MAN

Daza - who does EMA to Sandford?

[chinapattern]

I have neighbours (a family or four) who are flying to Sanford from MAN simply because it worked out so much cheaper and as it turns they get to fly the Dreamliner. Now feel free to call me stupid, but are the savings in part down to Thomson using these new fuel-efficient jets out of MAN and EMA?

[Evanelpus]

Now feel free to call me stupid, but are the savings in part down to Thomson using these new fuel-efficient jets out of MAN and EMA?

That's probably answered my previous question!

[Planeaddict]

Air Canada Rouge are flying from EDI from July.

Maybe Air Transat could increase frequency, 2 flights a week perhaps.

An idea just popped into my mind about a new visitor area (not just for spotters - maybe for parents taking their kids out of the day perhaps) like MAN and EMA but without the static aircraft.

[StoneyBridge Radar]

Planeaddict, please stop posting with what you presume young man.

One example; had you read previous posts thoroughly, you would not have presumed Wardair used aircraft "slightly smaller than the 762/3 that was used to Pakistan, and the flights were probably not being filled."

Wardair used both DC-10s and B747-200s through BHX in their heyday successfully, both which, I hope you agree, were substantially larger than both the B762 and B763.

Some simple research into the history of aviation at BHX and the UK in general would declutter this thread of a significant amount of disinformation and incorrect presumption. :ok:

Rgds

[Planeaddict]

Made a typo - instead of 762/3 I should have written 742/3.

The BHX flight guide shows that BHX handled 8,599,112 in 2011/12.

[Skipness One Echo]

Air Canada Rouge are flying from EDI from July.
Maybe Air Transat could increase frequency, 2 flights a week perhaps.

I think much of that market has died, literally. Worldways and Wardair served BFS, PIK, GLA, EDI, NCL, LBA, EXT, MAN, BHX, STN, LGW - YYZ at one time or another between them. In recent years Transat even dropped their once weekly EDI and have just dropped EXT and NCL. Changed days, it remains to be seen whether Rouge will succeed.....

[Centre cities]

I think that Rouge are after the inbound tourist market to Scotland. Wardair etc were more the ex pat market which is decreasing by the year.

Centre cities

[nigel osborne]

Plane Addict and all...

Lets put this one to bed.

I have asked BHX about the taxiways and they are NOT widening them.They inform me that they comply with all CAA regs for all types of aircraft. :hmm:

The A380 has a shorter wheelbase than a 77W or A346 ,so no problems for the A380.

They did add in an ideal World there are various places they would like to widen them a bit, but cannot justify the expense.

Having watched the biggest planes turning at ends of some of the taxiiways ,does look very tight..but as they comply its not happening folks.

Nigel

[ATNotts]

I think much of that market has died, literally

You're right. Back in the 80s a guy from Wardair told me that the the market was essentially Brit visiting their expat familiy in Canada, and that the families were, naturally dying off. Sad but true.

[splash&dash]

Just to clarify there are 3 A380 stands plus 1 parking area as follows in priority order - 85C, 54C (where it parked previously), 42C and taxiway Uniform at U1 facing West. Only 54C has a dedicated stop mark though. Only 1 A380 can manouvre at any time though due to certain safeguards and procedures. Bhx can accept ANY 2 A380s at any time in an emergency and are a certified Emirates airlines diversion as they have solely done all their paperwork and simulator training for BHX. Other airlines may follow suit as Emirates are satisfied with the data. Just a couple of months ago a Singapore A380 almost diverted in.
Runway length not a problem currently as virtually all diversions will likely be fuel and go's or restricted service to DXB. Length is shorter than 773 and taxiway fillets have been added to cater at certain points. More fillets are planned during runway resurfacing mainly to cater for longer A340 600.
Allegedly all EK 380s carry a tow bar on board and there are tugs available for pushbacks.
If EK do start scheduled 380 ops then relevant companies will provide suitable high reach equipment for a full service turnaround but until then it's not required for adhoc fuel diversions.
So BHX is ready and open for A380 ops with well rehearsed procedures in place.
I hope that clears things up.

[Planeaddict]

Didn't think that BHX could handle the A346. Would be interesting to see it handle a regular A343 service though - if Mahan Air were permitted to fly into the UK.

Any news on Air Algerie and EuroAtlantic?

Regarding PIA, looking at the pax figures to ISB, I don't think they have flown to KHI or LHE for a while - maybe they should tap into that market and see how it works out.

[StoneyBridge Radar]

Thierry Antinori, a board member at Emirates - which has showers at 39,000 feet - told a German paper in December that the airline was unhappy with load factors in First Class and was considering whether to stop offering First Class on some long-haul routes.

"We are currently looking at how we can fit out some A380s with only two classes," he said.

Although this is the musings of just one board member of EK., it might reflect what EK plan for their future A380s.

I think we can generally agree that there is limited demand for First class travel ex BHX, especially if it were limited to one airline and one route (all be it with onward connections).

With the manner in which loads have stagnated, I can't currently see a case for Emirates putting either a F equipped A380 on to regular service to BHX or a dual class A380, which would see a significant capacity increase over the current B77Ws.

Going further against the case for the A380 is if we believe the claims made on here about the significance of cargo on flights through BHX.

The most realistic scenario must therefore be to hope for loads to increase and then hope for a third daily B77W rotation in the morning.

I honestly can't see any way of justifying them pushing an A388 through BHX; perhaps we can now put such fantasies to bed once and for all. ;)

Rgds

[AMM626]

I have asked BHX about the taxiways and they are NOT widening them.They inform me that they comply with all CAA regs for all types of aircraft. http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/yeees.gif


4 Warnings

(f) Operators should note that Birmingham Airport is unable to accept A340-600 aircraft due to limitation on taxiway curves.

Page 11 :hmm:

http://www.ead.eurocontrol.int/eadbasic/pamslight-ACC20902004DE8ACDD3EEE04BFE5F91A/7FE5QZZF3FXUS/EN/AIP/AD/EG_AD_2_EGBB_en_2013-01-10.pdf

2 Ground Movement

(h) A380 Aircraft Operations:

(i) Operators of A380 aircraft may designate Birmingham as a nominated diversionary aerodrome subject to prior agreement with the Head of Airfield Operations Tel +44 (0)121-767 7384 and assessment of facilities at Birmingham by the Airline. The use of Birmingham as an alternate for A380 operations is also subject to UK CAA approval on an individual airline basis.

(ii) Maximum of 5 A380s can be handled at any time (subject to stand availability).

(iii) Only one A380 can move around the aerodrome at any time. If 2 or more aircraft are handled at the same time, one must be on stand at all times whilst the other is moving or stationary on Taxiway Tango / Taxilane Uniform

(iv) Follow-me will be provided for all movements.

(v) Departing aircraft must use the CAT III runway holds at all times, irrespective of weather conditions.

(vi) Diverting A380 aircraft will be provided with RFF Category 9 in accordance with UK CAA CAP 168 Chapter 8.

Page 10

[nigel osborne]

AMM626

Can handle 5 A380s at a time...crikey what were they drinking when they added that corker :O

Nigel

[potash]

While waiting for my flight from bhx last week i got talking to a EK security guy waiting for EK37 to land, i asked when would it be likely to get a 380 his words were no good to us here we need more cargo space all flights are rammed.

[simoncorbett]

On the Emirates flights from BHX is there space/weight for more cargo to be carried ? so after the runway extension is completed they will be able to carry more

Simon

[ATNotts]

Simon

Generally, air cargo tends to bulk out, so the maximum capacity in volume terms is reached before the maximum weight.

I'm guessing that the ratio of passenger space to baggage / cargo capacity on the A380 is somewhat greater than the 777, so by the time you've put all the bags on, their's not much space left for cargo.

[justplanecrazy84]

If cargo is so good for EK at BHX would it be worth them doing a skycargo flight once a week?

[GayFriendly]

Going on recent posts regarding EK and the documented stagnating pax loads a dedicated EK cargo flight could mean a reduction in pax flights to one daily as it seems that cargo is helping keep the two daily frequency going at the mo?

[Planeaddict]

5 A380s at once? That I would love to see, considering it's bound to start snowing in the next few days ;)

BHX handles half of what it can manage (around 8.5 million compared to the 17 million it can handle). Putting that aside however, still holding out for a new specially-made spotting area.

When it comes to the US, which route would be most viable? ORD or JFK?

[StoneyBridge Radar]

When it comes to the US, which route would be most viable? ORD or JFK?

Orlando or Sanford :ok:

[crewmeal]

When it comes to the US, which route would be most viable? ORD or JFK?

Neither. The airport management have been 'wined and dined' in Chicago last year in order to try and restart the route, but so far no takers. Why would any carrier want to restart JFK again, when EWR is working well? Remember the on/off LGW-JFK back in the 80's/90's? BA restarted that route and stopped it when it didn't work.

[ATNotts]

There are only two reasons for offering services from BHX to the USA.

First, to serve a major hub, ATL, ORD or EWR are the most obvious candidates, but as crewmeal has said, so far there is no sign of any carrier showing interest in re-opening service from ORD.

Second is point to point (charter or quasi scheduled services) to leisure destinations. These are limited realistically to the Orlando area (ORD or SFB) and Las Vegas. beyond that, the market is fragmented, with holiday makers from the UK generally flying scheduled to destinations anywhere from New England to California though either London or Manchester.

Inward, as I must have said umpteen times, the US public is so geographically challenged that they believe pretty well the only destination in England is London, then Stratford (half of them would probably wind up in E15 staring at the Olympic park) which they believe is not far from London. Getting significant inbound leisure traffic to chose BHX will be an uphill struggle.

Visit Britain does nothing to alter this perception.

I'm not sure why people are so obsessed with transatlantic. the USA is no longer the world's economic powerhouse, and manufacturing centre. That has shifted east - to India, China and other Far Eastern countries. it is to these areas that the development team needs to be addressing their (long haul) attention, not the USA.

[Planeaddict]

What's the chance that EK could replace the 77W with an A380 on a few occasions? I remember they did something similar many years ago when they would fly in the 772 instead of the A330 on a few occasions, before upgrading the daytime flight to it completely.

[ATNotts]

Planeaddict

Is it my imagination or are we going around and around in ever decreasing circles on this subject (Emirates and 380s)!!

Why, I am asking myself, would Emirates ever want to substitute the 773, with the 380 given the following which have already been mentioned:-

No upperdeck catering equipment

Lack of cargo uplift on the 380

3 class config on the 380 (BHX is a 2 class operation)

I fully appreciate that as a spotter you would love to see 380s operating through BHX - frankly, who wouldn't but this is (alledged) to be a professional forum, and I believe the professionals (of which I do not consider myself to be one) have answered this question innumerable times.

[nigel osborne]

AT Notts,

Re EK A380,

yes have to agree with all this, there may be a prospect of seeing an A380 in BHX in 2014 on the day the runway extension opens, to promote it, Unless they have another trick up their sleeves for that date.:}

Nigel

[justplanecrazy84]

Does anyone have any ideas on what airlines BHX might be in talks with?

[Planeaddict]

Does anyone have any ideas on what airlines BHX might be in talks with?

I would imagine Air Algerie as there have been rumours about that recently.

[chinapattern]

Does anyone have any ideas on what airlines BHX might be in talks with?

You only have to look at MAN as to what routes BHX could realistically pull off; any airlines showing an interest outside of London would more than likely opt for MAN first like Egyptair have just done. Therefore the best we could hope for would be the likes of TAP or Finnair and to be honest I thought Helsinki might have come off with the Flybe partnership but alas it didn't.

BHX always seem to be in discussion with airlines but the fact remains that we haven't had a new airline touch down here and last a considerable amount of time since 2008 when TK started. Hopefully they're trying to attract Jet2 but I'm guessing they're probably trying to convince someone more glamorous like Cathay Pacific to join the party. And we all know oneworld don't do BHX!

Perhaps in time the 787 could change things but in the short-term I think all we can hope for is continued expansion from existing carriers.

[crewmeal]

Does anyone have any ideas on what airlines BHX might be in talks with?

All of them:ugh:

[Ringwayman]

It's hardly an encouraging sign when a lot of publicity is tied into the "come here because LHR is full" mantra and not because BHX has a sufficiently big enough catchment area with the correct passenger profile for a number of airlines (long-haul or otherwise).

[Planeaddict]

BHX always seem to be in discussion with airlines but the fact remains that we haven't had a new airline touch down here and last a considerable amount of time since 2008 when TK started. Hopefully they're trying to attract Jet2 but I'm guessing they're probably trying to convince someone more glamorous like Cathay Pacific to join the party. And we all know oneworld don't do BHX!

Perhaps in time the 787 could change things but in the short-term I think all we can hope for is continued expansion from existing carriers.

If thery were going for Cathay Pacific, wouldn't they wait until the runway is done? :hmm:

Forgot TK only started in 2008. You would be able to say US Airways if they bothered to try BHX for another season.

I think there's more chance of expansion from the smaller carriers rather than the larger ones. Turkish flies 10 times a week - I suspect it doesn't operate that frequently from LHR or MAN but I may be wrong. Surely an aircraft upgrade is on the cards if the loads warrant it?

In terms of the long-haul carriers, Continental tried a second daily service (which would fly in just after the first flight had left) but that didn't last long, so that'll stay as it is for now. EK has been discussed. As mentioned, more services to Orlando would benefit. Not sure what PIA's loads are like but I suspect they aren't great, probably the reason why they only operate the 772 now rather than the 773.

[crewmeal]

Good point Ringwayman, but look what's the govt has in store:

Passengers could face congestion charge at Gatwick and Heathrow - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/aviation/9793798/Passengers-could-face-congestion-charge-at-Gatwick-and-Heathrow.html)

What difference would this make I wonder? Why penalise people for using for using the UK's 2 major airports?

[LAX_LHR]

Turkish flies 10 times a week - I suspect it doesn't operate that
frequently from LHR or MAN but I may be wrong

Erm, LHR is 5 daily, using a mix of A330/A340/B77W/A321/B737-800.
MAN is 10 weekly, rising to 2 daily from March using a mix of A321/B737-900 and B737-800.

[Ringwayman]

Turkish flies 10 times a week - I suspect it doesn't operate that frequently from LHR or MAN but I may be wrong.

Just looked at the TK schedule at LHR for the 21st Jan:

departures at 0755, 1140, 1600, 1610 and 2230. 3 x A321, 1 x A330 and 1 x A340. The 1600 = A321 and 1610= A340

Still 5 daily in April with "better" timings - 3 x A321 and 2 x A330

MAN is going double daily from summer and TK have been floating comments about going 3 daily in the medium term.


The "congestion charge" is the wrong way of approaching the matter. I'd prefer it if APD got eliminated for the regions as that is more "problematic" for airlines, so anything that allows airlines to carry more passengers on these services would be welcome.

[chaps2011]

Planeaddict
TK go 10 weekly between 1/4 and 30/9 ex BHX, 2 daily will be Mo/Th/Su
Man goes 2 daily from 31/3 to end of end of Oct at least and as we know TK
send what ever they want on routes

Chaps

[nigel osborne]

Planeaddict.

BHX marketing are in talks with many airlines a lot of the time.Quite common to see airline reps visiting the airport to be shown around, thats what they do for a living.Virgin for example sent a team to BHX quite recently.

Similarly airlines send their reps out to many airports around the World.

So you cannot tell just from talks who is serious about coming until they are announced.

After their BHX visit(not linked) for example Virgin joined British Airways saying they had no intention of flying from BHX..no doubt however they will be invited back to BHX again soon.

I suspect BHX will be hoping for more serious talks with Qatar and Easy Jet.However there are only so many times you can say the same thing to any airline if they are not interested.

Sure we wish BHX marketing and route development team all their best in their efforts to gain new airlines and routes in these challenging times :D

Nigel

[Planeaddict]

A statistic there I didn't know about - TK operate out of LHR & MAN a lot more often than BHX. However, would they ever try the A332 to BHX?

Nigel.

I agree with the fact you can't really get an idea of who will operate unless the respective routes are officially announced. Qatar confirmed they would operate from BHX back in July - it should have begun later that year if that was going to be the case. I think what the situation is - either BHX is purpously well-down their list or they are waiting for deliveries of new aircraft.

Can't imagine VA operating from here especially with the amount of flights they operate out of LGW, LHR and MAN. Would they really want to start a fourth UK destination (after the runway is completed)?

Would be nice if a carrier which doesn't already operate at any other UK airport chooses BHX as their first UK destination and focuses on their ops here. There are many Asian airlines for them to choose from for that matter.

[adfly]

Could maybe see VS try BHX 'GLA style' with 1/2 weekly Orlando flights in the summer and maybe a Barbados in the winter, although VS lack suitable aircraft for anything more than that as the 747's have too many seats and the Leisure A330's are being reconfigured and will end up too premium-heavy for such routes.

[FR-]

I suspect BHX will be hoping for more serious talks with Qatar and Easy Jet.However there are only so many times you can say the same thing to any airline if they are not interested.

Couldn't agree more, but how about improve the offer, you will not get easyJet to park its aircraft over night untill you give them the same deal as Ryanair.

fr-

[Ringwayman]

Why would TK try the A332 if they are only now bumping up frequency to 10 weekly? It would defeat their objective of building up the IST hub...the increase in capacity would make up for the 2nd service. They also operate to EDI and LGW.

Virgin already operate out of Glasgow to Orlando up to twice a week so BHX would be the 5th UK departure point for them.

[Planeaddict]

If VA were to start BHX, I guess it would be a once weekly service to Orlando on an A330 (can't think of any other aircraft that would be suitable).

Anyone know how well in loads (or yields if they'll be relevant here) the Toronto leg of the Air India service did?

Air Canada Rouge (simply a budget version of Air Canada) are starting EDI in July. No idea of the chances of them coming here but a service to the likes of Vancouver would be worth a try.

[chinapattern]

RE: Planeaddict

Just so we get things straight; I wasn't for a minute suggesting BHX were in talks with Cathay, I was merely making light of the fact the airport seems to be constantly talking about attracting long haul carriers at a time when they should probably be looking at more realistic short haul markets that they are sorely lacking.

Regarding US Airways; you say they couldn't be bothered to last more than one season. Perhaps we should be grateful they tried in the first place. Sadly it proved that BHX cannot sustain two transatlantic services and the truth of the matter is BHX's market isn't enough keep a daily service throughout the winter.

And Turkish? Why oh why would they send an A330 to BHX????

These are things you've been told on this and another forum so why do you feel the need to keep asking the same questions over and over again? You won't get a different answer.

[crewmeal]

Perhaps he gets 100 nectar points for every post! Seriously planeaddict try reading through the forums and stop guessing at what might come into Brum. Look at the bigger financial picture. Imagine it from a business point. Imagine you run a carrier and you were responsible to your board and shareholders. How would you determine whether to fly from A to B? Pretty tails? Longer runway? Nice big aeroplanes? In another way would you open a sweet shop in the middle of a country lane?

What you would like to happen and what does are two entirely different things. The best you can hope for is an odd diversion this coming week with the snow forecast.

[chaps2011]

Planeaddict

Turkish are very reactive and swap aircraft round as needed, MAN has had quite a few A330 over the years usually term start/finish for uni when there are a lot of students here at Manchester travelling


Chaps

[Burpbot]

The way I see it only one airline is making a significant investment in Bhx. I think courting easy and jet2 would be an unwelcome move!

[nigel osborne]

Plane addict,

Yes think you are right on the latter point about Qatar, we are not a priority. They announced some time ago there intention to fly into BHX along with other UK airports.

The fact that they named us but not the others probably means they are serious. However since then they have announced other airports around the World with start dates.

China Pattern. I think it is VERY likely BHX will see TK A330s in BHX.They have put them on MAN services when demand requires. In BHX case it would only be for a big NEC exhibitions,or sporting events though.

Re US Airways, well as is so often the case at BHX,it was started at the wrong time in the middle of a recession.One day the UK economy will pick up and they might try again.

In relation to Virgin agree that Orlando and perhaps a Vegas would work from BHX...but they are in the process of refitting all their leisure A330s into 3 class machines..and BHX doesn't do long haul 3 class,so who knows.

Nigel

[chinapattern]

I think it is VERY likely BHX will see TK A330s in BHX.They have put them on MAN services when demand requires. In BHX case it would only be for a big NEC exhibitions,or sporting events though.

For something like that yes, anything is possible; but not as a general uprgade which was being suggested.

[rodchester]

Birmingham cannot support 2 daily flights, to the usa h'mmm interesting. In the 1990s if my memory serve's me correct didnt BHX have 2 daily fights to the US both to new york and chicago running over a number of years. BHX was smaller in passenger through put at that time. I know 9/11 had change the situation, and now we are in the deepest dowturn since the depression. Personnel i think the demand is there, but customers are using LHR and Man, since there is not much choice at bhx at present. There must many other factors to, thus why the runway is being extended. Also just to ad the us airways pulled the bhx route, they also pulled LGW and a number of other airports, due to the economic downturn, it was not Bhx specifically!!

[Skipness One Echo]

The clue is both BA and AA pulled out. More relevant when CO tried double daily it wasn't a success even though the route used to be a DC10. US tried one season and never came back. Given AA have virtually pulled out of Europe to concentrate on LHR, US got burnt and CO/UA can't make more capacity work that only leaves DL who pulled EDI-ATL/JFK, MAN-JFK and even LGW-ATL in recent years. For all the talk of Chicago, I can only see it if BHX pay United to fly the route for the first year!

btw US are pulling LGW as just like DL last year, they have gained the slots to move the route to LHR.

There is a tendency to fixate on sexier routes rather than bread and butter. How much impact on the bottom line is one more B757 sized rotation a day going to make versus a new fleet of based Jet2 for instance?

[rodchester]

Yes agree with what you are saying in principle, it is interesting to add that AA service to chicago from BHX had limitations on it as regards to weight it could carry, and it was even reported that baggage had to be left behind due to the wieght limitations on some days when it was hot!! (correct me if im wrong?). Cargo was very limited to, which contributed to the problem of making the service viable!! The runway extension should allow more wieght to be carried! So there might be some future possibilities. CO should never have gone double daily, i think they would of being better of using a bigger aircraft on the route instead. As i mention before US airways had ceased operations out of number of airports about the same time as BHX, due to the economic downturn. Also you cant establish a transatlantic service in 5 months!!! it takes time and money! , which in this climate airlines dont have!!!

[GayFriendly]

NCL now has the 787 scheduled from 1/4/14 to CUN (on First Choice website). Still no sign of it at BHX: without wanting to sound like some of the other fantasists on here, do you think TOM are holding back a combined 787 and new routes announcement for BHX to tie in with the opening of the runway extension?

[Planeaddict]

Any diversions at BHX today due to the snow?

[ATNotts]

Planeaddict

Do what us old 'uns used to do, and get on your bike, go down to the 'drome and find out!!!

Trouble with tinternet is that everyone thinks they can find out everything without ever leaving the comfort of their living rooms!

[Planeaddict]

Do what us old 'uns used to do, and get on your bike, go down to the 'drome and find out!!!

Trouble with tinternet is that everyone thinks they can find out everything without ever leaving the comfort of their living rooms!

Would have thought the BHX Flight Guide would have the info. Never mind :rolleyes:

Regarding these new flight paths once the runway is done, I doubt it'll make much of an impact to those taking off from 33 (am I right?).

[BHX5DME]

Watch the video .........


Airspace Change Consultation - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=zpPn0_MdBrc)

[Hotel Tango]

Do what us old 'uns used to do, and get on your bike, go down to the 'drome and find out!!!

Trouble with tinternet is that everyone thinks they can find out everything without ever leaving the comfort of their living rooms!

Wrong forum, I would agree. However, the argument submitted by ATNotts is is a little puzzling. ;) What's the internet for then? In these temperatures some may quite rightly be just a tad reluctant to get on their bike and ride (possibly a long ride) only to be disappointed. However, it might indeed be wiser for Planeaddict to ask these type of questions on a dedicated Birmingham spotters website. :)

[ATNotts]

Hotel Tango

ask these type of questions on a dedicated Birmingham spotters website

It was a metaphorical bike, and that is really what I was trying to imply!!:O

[rn750]

This is very interesting..
Follow this link
http://www.bbc.co.uk/democracylive/21024439 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/democracylive/21024439)

Transport committee looking at Aviation Strategy
The first bit is the London guys.
Usual stuff from them although it was interesting they could not come up with specific companies that had been lost because LHR is full..

From about 40:30 minutes Jerry BLackett Chair of Birmingham Chamber of commerce group, as well as Manchester Liverpool and Scotland representatives.
47:15 The Spelthorne MP (1 mile south of Heathrow) interrupts then asks the key question.. Why if Birmingham has 50% capacity do the airlines not go there.
Jerry states that he meets Directors everyday wanting to go to places direct from Birmingham.. and that evern if LHGR is the answer it is letting us down.

53:15 The discussion is around how the UK (London) is promoted at the moment and how it hinders the regional airports.
Remember £50Billion (to build boris island) buys you a lot of marketing abroad promoting the regional airports..

There is a lot of evidence in this, that there is demand for Birmingham and the regions for direct flights to the rest of the world, and it is more how the regions are or are not promoted that is the cause of the problem.
57:15 Redditch MP asks the HS2 question..
58:15 Hs2 gives you options to reduce the pressure and stress on the overheated SE
106:15 Manchester rep raises APD debate..
107:30 Bi-lateral agreements..
1:11 Hub/ or Hubs debate some good points made here especially around why only have 1 hub and Frankfurt only being 30% of the external German market..

1:23 Summary Jerry Promote regional airports as part of the Government overseas promotion..APD was raised again.
It was a reasoned debate that addressed some of the points that are always made on here why we can have more flights in the regions..

You can tell I was busy today.. lol
Adie

[OltonPete]

Sourc: CAA Provisional pax

December 2012 531963 +4.5% - rolling year 8916209 +3.6%

ATM's - December 5520 -0.3% - rolling year 84090 +0.3%

December was still below 2005-2009 but better than 2004 but not 2003

Pete

[insuindi]

post can be removed
(http://www.caa.co.uk/default.aspx?catid=80&pagetype=88&sglid=11&fld=201212)

[Planeaddict]

8,916,209 passengers for 2012, up 3.6% on 2011. Not bad if you ask me. Hope 2013 continues this trend.

[GayFriendly]

Good news indeed after a tough trading year - lets hope the upward trend continues and that BHX returns to 9million+ pax this year.

Apart from SPU and BOD are there any other credible route rumours for 2013? Are SK sticking with ARN?

[nigel osborne]

Gayfriendly re TOM 787.

I think you might be right ,the summer 2014 brochures will be out March/April.You would certainly expect a B787 from BHX, if EMA,NCL have some, as more are being delivered for 2014.

I am hoping BHX marketing have been working hard on Thomson Holidays to come up with a new direct long haul destination to tie in with the new runway extension opening.

If its still a 767 then I would imagine some very red faces at BHX !:\:O

Nigel

[Planeaddict]

I am hoping BHX marketing have been working hard on Thomson Holidays to come up with a new direct long haul destination to tie in with the new runway extension opening.

My ideal 'runway extension opening day' would simply be Emirates putting the A380 on the midday service but probably won't happen :cool:

Apart from SPU and BOD are there any other credible route rumours for 2013? Are SK sticking with ARN?

Nothing seems to have come of EuroAtlantic. I wouldn't consider Air Algerie to be 'credible'. Not sure if you would consider it a 'rumour' but there's still Qatar.

[nigel osborne]

Plane Addict,

yes a 380 of Emirates is also possible for the opening..

The way things are, BHX might polish down a Ryan Air 738 for the launch to keep Ryan Air happy :rolleyes: :E

Not sure how any Air Algerie service would work , we have a very small Algerian population in Brum ,and as it would be a service put on due to slot restrictions at LHR, most would want to go to London not BHX.

Surely Luton would be a better option closer to LHR. I can see more and more short/medium range flts going to Luton instead of LHR once they have more stands. They only have El Al at present.

Nigel

[Navpi]

I thought Jerry BLackett Chair of Birmingham Chamber was brilliantin that debate.

He made the other attendees look small......

[crewmeal]

Regions demand better air links to boost UK economy - www.travelweekly.co.uk (http://www.travelweekly.co.uk/Articles/2013/01/15/42803/regions+demand+better+air+links+to+boost+uk+economy.html)

Now without wishing to carry on this debate too much, surely members of the Manchester and Birmingham chambers should know why airlines don't operate to the regions?

A good example of this is BA have tried and tested JFK over the years and it hasn't worked. Not only BHX but LGW as well. If it worked then they would operate it. (I'm not talking about dodgy operators to India either!)

[Ringwayman]

And BA, of course, positively encouraged the premium payers to utilise the regional long-haul services.

[Navpi]

Sorry Crewmeal

You are talking cobblers.....

BA and Virgin do not wish to dilute there service from the UK, why would they. In the past they forced everybody into London either by car from Birmingham or Shuttle from Manchester, NI, Scotland etc.

Certainly at Manchester they have have come badly unstuck, as I understand it QR, EK , Eithad are all full so they are losing a massive amounts of traffic.

Not sure about BHX because it does tend to suffer by the location of Heathrow and Manchester but certainly in the NWest there us clearly lots of money to be made......

[crewmeal]

Sorry Crewmeal

You are talking cobblers.....



You should address that remark to the chambers that were mentioned. I agree with you, I know BA & VA don't want to dilute their services. What the article mentions is the fact that BHX and MAN want more long haul routes. As previously stated carriers will not operate to an aiport that has no traffic and why should they? Airlines are in the business of making money. EK does well because it offers hundreds of connections from DXB. I'm sure UA do well because of the hub at EWR.

The term 'use it or loose it' has been tried and tested at BHX on more than one occasion.

[hillwalker2004]

I can see a flight from BHX to Hannover RR5014 (Royal Air Force), code share with Air Berlin AB3714 departing 11.50am today.

Obviously not a public flight and a bit of research shows that it is a regular service 3x weekly. I guess its obviously linking with one of the UK bases in Germany but am a little surprised why BHX is being used?

[Skipness One Echo]

And BA, of course, positively encouraged the premium payers to utilise the regional long-haul services.
Yes, schizophrenic as ever, the left hand and the right hand never liked each other. See also "Go-Fly", BA Connect and anything with the smell of the word "regional".

Certainly at Manchester they have have come badly unstuck, as I understand it QR, EK , Eithad are all full so they are losing a massive amounts of traffic.
In the sense that anyone going East has better one stop options over DXB, AUH and DOH. BA cannot compete in this market without having a secondary hub out there in BKK / SIN / etc to feed their secondary hub at BHX. That's not been easy to do even with a large QF presence in SIN.
From a market persepctive it's about having a critical mass, something BA have at LHR and EK have at DXB. By all means kick BA for not providing the service but in all honesty, no one has explained how they'd ever make a profit doing it.

Regionally EK are a much better option connecting East, BA offer a great number of choices going West. The market will choose.

One last point, BA has to make a profit or die. Are you sure that's true of EK, EY or QR? Really?

[bhx bod]

Hillwalker2004
These flights have been operated through BHX for a number of years,though
BER have been flying them for the last 2/3 years.Not entirely sure why however
but it's to do with the MOD contract,possibly as BHx is closer to some of the bases where the service personnel are based.Would like confirmation though.

[bhx bod]

Further to my 1st post,these flights have also been operated by Titan a/w
amongst others.BER being possibly the longest serving on this contract.
The flights operate twice a week to HAJ,WED/SAT,and weekly to Paderborn on
Sunday afternoons using a mix of B738 to Paderborn,and 738/320 to HAJ.
Hope this is of help!:)

[Planeaddict]

Sometimes you have to wonder if these airlines WANT to fly from BHX, or are just doing it because of lack of slot availability. Maybe that's the case with Air Algerie - not a huge Algerian population in the Midlands and there are no onward connections to India which passengers are likely to use, and while there may be Beijing not many will fly with it. They also terminated MAN a while back.

If Air India were happy with their position at BHX, if they were forced to move to LHR for the winter they would have done everything in their power to return the next summer. It was just to protect their 'valuable slots' at the airport - though I wonder how that thought only came about in 2008, three years after they started serving BHX.

That said, airlines like Turkmenistan and Uzbekistan seemed to only work well because passengers could use them for connections to India, and plus Uzbekistan operated to JFK via BHX in 2001 (which was then axed due to 9/11, then re-instated in March 2003).

What is the usual load for the A343 compared to the 773? I was wondering as Emirates operated that aircraft to Glasgow from June for a couple of months when their second daily service initially started - would be nice to see them replace the 77W for an A343 one day to see how it works :hmm:

[rutankrd]

The Emirates A343 models are being retired - Two already left fleet.

They are F12 C42 Y213 - Premium heavy compared to the 77W

They normally use a high density 77W either C42 Y386 or C42 Y400 to Birmingham

Some mid week flights employ a mid density with F8 C42 Y310 in which case the F8 are blocked.

The 77W also has increased pallet space.

[Planeaddict]

The Emirates A343 models are being retired - Two already left fleet.

They are F12 C42 Y213 - Premium heavy compared to the 77W

They normally use a high density 77W either C42 Y386 or C42 Y400 to Birmingham

Some mid week flights employ a mid density with F8 C42 Y310 in which case the F8 are blocked.

The 77W also has increased pallet space.

In essence, do the A340s have a larger amount of seats than the 77W?

If the A343s are being retired, what about the A345 (if, of course, the runway could handle it)?

[ATNotts]

Planeaddict

With no apology for seeming rude, you keep going around and around Emirates as though you have some sort of fettish (or even addiction) about them!.

BHX as you have been told umpteen times is a 2 class operation, and one that also requires a decent cargo uplift. That means the 2 class 777-300 is the equipment of choice - end of!

Therefore whether or not this that or the other equipment could or would be able to operate through BHX whether for technical or operational reasons is totally irrelevent and I for one am fast losing patience with the constant stream of silly questions!!

I fear I am not the only one.

Andrew (very grumpy old man!).

[rutankrd]

Do the math the numbers are right there !

Answer its a word with two consecutive letters of the alphabet !

The 345s have even fewer in Y - so ever more premium heavy !

[crewmeal]

Agreed this thread is getting nauseating because of planeaddict's posts.

what about the A345

This is an ultra long range aircraft, hardly suitable for UK operations. Why don't you post in spotters corner and relieve us of the tedium planeaddict, or are you deliberately trying to wind everyone up?

[Fairdealfrank]

Quote: "BA and Virgin do not wish to dilute there service from the UK, why would they. In the past they forced everybody into London either by car from Birmingham or Shuttle from Manchester, NI, Scotland etc.

Certainly at Manchester they have have come badly unstuck, as I understand it QR, EK , Eithad are all full so they are losing a massive amounts of traffic.

Not sure about BHX because it does tend to suffer by the location of Heathrow and Manchester but certainly in the NWest there us clearly lots of money to be made...... "

Classic hub-and-spoke policy as adopted by almost all non-"no frills" carriers. So one would expect foreign carriers to be doing longhaul at BHX, feeding their hubs, for onward journeys. For example if HKG or BKK were viable, expect CX or TG to be on the route, rather than BA or VS.

People don't mind going the "long way round" to save a little money, so EK does very well out of UK regional airports.

Before hub-and-spoke became more or less mandatory, BA had a secondary hub at BHX. Regretably it is no longer tenable.

However, BA and VS are not the only UK airlines. If there's money to be made, airlines will be there, UK or overseas.

After all, let's face it, there are no capacity problems at BHX, and the authorities there would (rightly) welcome any potential longhaul carriers with open arms!


Quote:"Not sure about BHX because it does tend to suffer by the location of Heathrow and Manchester but certainly in the NWest there us clearly lots of money to be made......"

Not necessarily the case, if there's sufficient demand and profits to be made, such proximity is not an issue. Look at the proximity of PHL, IAD, BWI and the NYC airports, for example, or DUB and SNN.


Quote: "If Air India were happy with their position at BHX, if they were forced to move to LHR for the winter they would have done everything in their power to return the next summer. It was just to protect their 'valuable slots' at the airport - though I wonder how that thought only came about in 2008, three years after they started serving BHX."

It's nothing to do with BHX specifically, AI have been in financial dire straits for ages, so it could be that the 'valuable slots' at LHR have been sold off or leased out longterm.

At LHR, they used do several daily flights to/from Bombay, with one extended to New York, plus a daily to/from Delhi, and at one time, even direct to Calcutta. Now it's just one flight/day each to/from BOM and DEL!

It's not just BHX, AI has withdrawn from most of Europe, most of Africa and the Mideast, all of Australia, and much of Asia. Only the Gulf appears to be a growth area for them. That once great airline is a shadow of its former self.