BIRMINGHAM - 5 [Archive] - Page 8

getonittt

22nd Nov 2012, 14:45

Re the new maintenance hangars....These are to be positioned as proposed in the 2007 'Master Plan - Towards 2030'. Hopefully the next project to be announced will be a new enclosed ground running facility, as proposed in the same plan....

Just looking at the plan , and it seems that where the engine run up area is would seem to fit in with the position of the new hangar. It also shows that taxiway kilo is to be re positioned , the only problem with that is it is where they are putting the new compass area which in itself is being moved because of the new hangar!
Also the 2015 plan has an extension to the former eurohub with a pier extending out as far as the the new one. Is this still on the horizon?

ATNotts

22nd Nov 2012, 16:16

BobBHX

Another good reason why airports shouldn't get to a situation when they are over reliant on Ryanair, and why BHX is in a better situation than many regional airports as it does have a wide variety of full service and LoCo carriers.

Guest 112233

22nd Nov 2012, 19:39

Nigel - its good to see progress on the ground works ATN, I completely agree with you on this, this company's commercial practices are although perfectly legal, are potentially economically damaging in the long run.

CAT III

justplanecrazy84

23rd Nov 2012, 07:09

How come Wizz hasn't tried BHX? Has it been due to Ryanair being to much of a competition for them?

chaps2011

23rd Nov 2012, 07:16

I think BHX costs are too high for them and also LTN is there main operating
station so why dilute it

Chaps

justplanecrazy84

23rd Nov 2012, 07:58

Thanks Chaps.

Could this be a good opportunity for Jet2 to come in and grab Prague and Budapest before any other airlines do e.g Easyjet?

pwalhx

23rd Nov 2012, 09:29

If the costs are too high for Wizz then the same would apply to Jet2 surely? Also to a degree maybe that is what has deleayed what everyone seems to think is a base for Easy?

chaps2011

23rd Nov 2012, 09:53

pwalhx
Yes I totally agree

Chaps

ATNotts

23rd Nov 2012, 11:39

I really am struggling to understand why Jet2 would want to come to BHX just to operate two weekend break destinations. What would they do with the aircraft for the rest of the week - more bucket and spade routes I guess - a market which is already saturated.

Moreover Jet2 have an expanding base not 40 miles up the road, if they wanted to dip into the BUD and PRG market from BHX, I would suggest they open up routes from EMA, and advertise them to a West Midlands audience.

FR-

23rd Nov 2012, 11:50

I think PRG is more of an easyJet route like LIS :E

fr-

GayFriendly

23rd Nov 2012, 16:12

If BHX can strike a deal with FR who I should imagine drive the hardest of bargains I am amazed they can't with EZY or LS. FR and ZB manage to run both BHX and EMA bases why not LS too? I think it is the relatively limited range of routes left that would suit the operatinal demands of lo-co ops from BHX that puts them off. Previously tried LIS and PRG yes, along with MAD and recently dropped BUD would be good city routes to have back - WAW also. Otherwise they would have to go head to head on happily served bucket and spade routes by FR and ZB or try routes that have already tried and failed (eg BLQ, BIQ, MRS etc - however just because they didn't work first time doesn't mean they won't again, look at the success of LH on TXL). The last option is completely untested waters - NAP, ATH, SVQ........sadly airlines I don't think have reserves of cash to try things out and see if they work. Still, never say never!

As for Wizz they did fly from CVT for a short time, I don't think a few BHX flights would impact significantly on their ops from LTN and agree that PRG and BUD would be ideal for them if BHX could come up with a deal.

chinapattern

23rd Nov 2012, 17:44

I think a few safe bucket and spade routes thrown in with the likes of Prague, Lisbon, Madrid, Budapest, Pisa and Toulouse aswell as something a little more daring like Athens or Tel Aviv would be a good starting point should either or these two come to town.

crewmeal

24th Nov 2012, 06:22

BA and Virgin say Birmingham Airport will never be international hub - Other UK business news - Business News - Business - Birmingham Post (http://www.birminghampost.net/birmingham-business/birmingham-business-news/other-uk-business/2012/11/22/ba-and-virgin-say-birmingham-airport-will-never-be-international-hub-65233-32288317/)

I think this is a reasonable argument.

Heathrow and Gatwick are full because people want to fly from them. Birmingham isn’t because people don’t.

I suppose they do have a point. But here is an example of which comes first the chicken or the egg?

Faster Stansted rail link would boost numbers by 1.4m - www.travelweekly.co.uk (http://www.travelweekly.co.uk/Articles/2012/11/23/42374/faster+stansted+rail+link+would+boost+numbers+by+1.4m.html)

On the other hand would this be true of BHX?

roverman

24th Nov 2012, 07:53

Makes perfect sense seen from the narrow view of the airline hub operator.

If only life were as simple as these airlines make out. Part of a much wider and more fundamental question. Do we run the world according to 'market demand', which is good for business, or accept that these demands must be tempered in order to ensure balanced and sustainable societies?

ATNotts

24th Nov 2012, 10:56

The logic of the BA and VS stance is that in the (unlikely) event that the English economy, away from the southeast sees a sustained improvement the beneficiaries with be Lufthansa, Air France / KLM, Emirates, Turkish and all the other full service carriers.

By the time BA and VS wake up to the improved business situation, the business will be already secured by the carriers that have bothered to serve the main bulk of England, and they would find it hard to muscle in.

All this assumes that the national politicians allow and promote growth outside of the Southeast, something which postwar history suggests they have no interest in doing; certainly if it would be to the detriment of the southeast!

Skipness One Echo

24th Nov 2012, 11:26

A single bad year can kill any business. The full service airlines at BHX do what VS and BA do, they feed their hubs. Do Turkish fly point to point from other regional airports in Turkey for reasons of social good? Do Lufthansa? KLM? Air France?

Um Emirates?

One hub, many spokes in all cases bar the quite exceptional Lufthansa and the odd good p2p route like GVA with Swiss. They're all much the same really. Thr bulk of England commercially and economically is within the M25 btw.

Trying to run thinga with a balanced and sustainable view is a political ideal I agree with in principle but has given us high energy bills and windfarms. Careful what you do when you distort a market with subsidy.

hec7or

24th Nov 2012, 18:42

BA are in danger here of missing the market that Emirates have identified and have ignored the fact that people do want to fly out of BHX because LHR is such a hellhole. BA wants to fly out of Heathrow, Emirates don't have to.

It reminds me of when Robert Ayling decided he didn't want backpackers and other Y class people cluttering up his aircraft and handed the lowcosts a marketing triumph.

He was as wrong about that as he was about everything else he did at BA.

Virgin?

I wasn't aware that Virgin had a BHX hub, or any relevant experience in the regions, so their opinion isn't very important here.

ajfreeman

24th Nov 2012, 19:23

I think BA have seriously slipped up at BHX, flights to India and Pakistan could have been profitable for many years if they were to have carried on flying from the regions, however they failed and many others are making a tidy sum from BHX.

Andrew

Monty Gordo

24th Nov 2012, 19:25

There have been numerous posts on here re BA/Virgin and comments attributed to their views as regards Bhx and/or other regional airports.

Hec7or, your view I think is closest to hitting the nail on the head in as much as that you have taken the discussion away from what the airlines want and concentrated more on what the passengers want.

Emirates stands a shining example of this from Bhx, as does Lufthansa and KLM. Once you strip away the significant business travel (extremely valuable as that is) the majority of that which remains has onward travel outside Europe.

These are people that have taken the conscious decision to avoid not only London, but Heathrow. As Hec7or rightly says, for anyone planning onward travel, the place is a 'hellhole'. 'BA wants to fly out of Heathrow, Emirates don't have to'

If another runway were to be added to Heathrow, then so too passenger numbers would escalate. It would still be a 'hellhole'...

Perhaps it is the publicity element that needs improving; you CAN fly to virtually anywhere in the world from Bhx. If BA and Virgin don't want Bhx, then conversely, you the passenger don't need them!

ATPLwhoops

24th Nov 2012, 20:35

I know first hand and other people that despite the fact that a BA flight from LGW was cheaper than Emirates from BHX....they paid in excess of 300GBP each per passenger just to get a flight from BHX as it was more convenient. Who wants to drive to London to go long haul. There is much more to the UK than just London.

"Its all about economics and business" it normal that BA/VS are negative towards BHX and it is normal that BHX management are negative towards development in the London area.

BHX's catchment area is good and with the runway extension well away it will only be a matter of time that BHX can really show its potential. The last laugh will be on BHX management when the likes of BA / VS miss out to other carrier's.

I still have not got over the fact that BA ditched all their regional bases its disgusting. No other airline in Europe has done this. Legacy airlines in Europe have a presence in many cities around a particular country. Germany is a good example of how Lufthansa use multiple hubs.

Having a rant now....on a side note, I used BHX recently and the parking policy is just horrendous. It's daylight robbery.

GayFriendly

24th Nov 2012, 20:51

Aside from the commercial discussion no one has mentioned that BA and VS when compared to other full service airlines that do fly from BHX (EK, LX, LH, AF and so on) are not (in my experience) actually that good in terms of service and the on board experience. Speak as you find but I would far rather pay a bit more to go with EK from BHX than BA from LHR any day, for both convenience and service.

There is an outside chance that VS could introduce a BHX-MCO or perhaps a Caribbean destination, maybe MBJ once the runway extension is open. BA, just forget it, hell will freeze over before they are seen at BHX again!

Fairdealfrank

25th Nov 2012, 00:46

Actually BA and VS are right: never say "never", but BHX won't become a hub anytime soon. By creating a hub at a particular airport, it is the airlines who decide which airports become hubs, not airport managements.

No airlines are falling over themselves to create a hub at BHX at present.

That's not to say there's anything wrong with BHX, the same is not happening at other UK airports or at equivelant airports in comparable European countries.

All the carriers mentioned above, AF, EK, KL, LH, TK, etc., do what they all do, feed their respective hubs.

The criticism of BA and VS (if there is any) therefore should be that they are not doing this, as there are no longer flights between LHR and BHX.

If there's money to be made, UK carriers will do longhaul from BHX (or anywhere else for that matter). Years ago, BA and its predecessor BOAC, did trans Atlantic from BHX. They really can't be expected to run loss-making services!

Skipness One Echo

25th Nov 2012, 06:43

If Emirates is the best example how come growth has stuck at twice daily B77Ws whereas in the same period LHR has gone from five daily B773/B77W to mainly A388 and MAN has gone three daily and gets the A380? Indeed MAN also has QR and EY. Also GLA has gone three class before BHX, something that surprised me.

Again, BA would have no feed from their main hub if they served say BHX-FRA/CDG/DXB/EWR whereas LH/AF/EK/UA are feeding from a main hub. This does not stack up as one is operating point to point whereas the other flies not only point to point but to points beyond too. This is a commercial advantage BA wouldn't have so they're not missing out on a market as such, it's simply the other guy has a competitive advantage.

crewmeal

25th Nov 2012, 06:51

Willy Walsh has made it quite clear that there won't be any BA flights (apart from feeders to LHR) from regional airports. BA have cooked their goose by withdrawing all long haul and short haul flights and other carriers have jumped on the regional bandwagon and are doing pretty well. This means there is no market for BA. No matter how good marketing and sales managers managers are, there is just not the traffic now. There are plenty of reasons why business traffic from BHX is in decline. The main one being successive governments have decimated it.

It's a shame that the 'Silverjets' of the world couldn't have succeeded because they had an excellent product, but no one would use it. Whether it was a good idea to fly from LTN is debatable. LGW in my view would have been better especially as BA can't make New York flights work. The only reason BA do well at LCY is that business traffic 'lives' next door. There is a market for it and it works. What is there now at BHX? nothing!

As for EK as Skipness states what has happened to expansion? At present it seems to be going the other way!

Back in the 90's I worked for Maersk and saw the potential for growth. BA had an excellent hub for European flights and indeed JFK. Economic times took their toll and after 9/11 everything went into meltdown.

ATNotts

25th Nov 2012, 10:12

Skipness One Echo

Trying to run thinga with a balanced and sustainable view is a political ideal

The problem is that what happens in England is exactly the opposite. London and the Southeast benefits from political investment, whether it be the siting the UK national football stadium (Wembley - hardly central to the English nation) or the Olympics (other cities tried and failed - when it came to London's bid, we were all expected to back it). However it will always be so.

If Emirates is the best example how come growth has stuck at twice daily B77Ws

Fair point, but the stagnation that EK has seen, has coincided with the arrival on the scene of Turkish who are building a similar sort of hub operation in IST to that which EK have developed in DXB. The market for BHX is always going to be smaller than LHR - in the same way that MUC will never be as big as FRA.

Fairdealfrank

No airlines are falling over themselves to create a hub at BHX at presently

There is no doubt that BHX, or Manchester will never become a UK hub, however the attitude of BA towards anywhere in the UK that isn't London is lamentable. Even in a similarly "one city" country such as France, AF do offer international services from airports other than those in the capital. BA could make money from the regions; but their business model is that they don't want to. If that wasn't the case, profitable carriers, such as Lufthansa wouldn't be serving their regional airports with direct routes to major business centres, not only in near Europe, but further afield.

I don't care whether BA or VS operates from BHX, but my original point is that if, and when English wealth spreads it's way more equally across the country, both will have missed the boat, to the benefit of other European carriers.

RealFish

25th Nov 2012, 10:57

'...if, and when English wealth spreads it's way more equally across the country...'

That's a big 'IF'. I've just seen Boris on Sky, in India, there to promote even more investment in post-Olympic London.

Sitting in T5 a few months back, I felt that I was in a different country. The UK is so unbalanced economically that we are likely to tip on our end as more people head down there. In fact TFL say that London's population will increase by 1.2 million (equal to the size of Brum) by 2028...so plans are now afoot for Cross Rail 2. Nine Elms, Battersea and Inner South-West London will be the next area soaking up huge amount of infrastructure ££££'s, desperately needed elswewhere in the UK.

And Boris Island (or Amsterdam (London) as Ryanair might call it) will be next.

What is needed is a genuine regional development strategy, but there is no real will, no desire. Working 'down Sarf', I well remember the hostility, by some and the London media, to the originally proposed North of London Eurostar services. For some the Chanel Tunnel's benefits would be their's and they didn't want to share it. I don't see that changing.

Daza

25th Nov 2012, 15:40

Crew meal wrote There are plenty of reasons why business traffic from BHX is in decline
What evidence do you have for this statement? Full service airlines AF,LH,SAS,TK etc seem to be adding services and TXL and ARN seem to doing well so far. Which other UK Airports have seen full service carriers expand? Indeed how many UK Airports still have any full service carries at all?
If you are referring to Emirates loss of passengers at Birmingham remember BHX is sandwiched between EK 5xA380 a day ex LHR and the recent huge expansion of Middle Eastern services at MAN. I'm surprised BHX-DXB passengers haven't fallen by far more. Birmingham Airport and its enviable transport links mean Midlanders can easily travel away from Birmingham Airport too :}
Daza

crewmeal

25th Nov 2012, 16:26

I'm surprised BHX-DXB passengers haven't fallen by far more. Birmingham Airport and its enviable transport links mean Midlanders can easily travel away from Birmingham Airport too
Daza

In a way you have answered your own question. Industry in the Midlands has all but disappeared from the region. More companies are looking at cheap labour in India and China to keep the manufacturing costs down, hence lack of investment. You only have to drive around the Birmingham area to see all the waste land where once factories stood.

Although full service carriers make up the most of BHX's traffic, how many of them actually fill the premium cabins?

Monty Gordo

25th Nov 2012, 16:40

Crewmeal

If you don't mind me saying, what utter b.......! Show me an industrial city which doesn't have wasteland; sadly it is a by-product of a changing industrial landscape. But as the large labour-intensive industries have disappeared, then high-tech industries have taken their place. And the same can be said for Birmingham. And it is these high-tech replacements that have fuelled the increase in business travel with legacy carriers.

Let's have constructive comment not hyperbole.

ATNotts

25th Nov 2012, 16:42

RealFish

That's a big 'IF'. I've just seen Boris on Sky, in India, there to promote even more investment in post-Olympic London.

I beggars belief that in the referendum last year for whether or not Birmingham should have an elected mayor, a meagre turnout voted against. Boris has a high profile and can make just such trips, drumming up business and investment for his city - so he should, as mayor it's his job. Birmingham has a council leader - hardly as much clout as an elected mayor.

Still, that's democracy for you. Brummies weren't alone in being so short sighted.

crewmeal

25th Nov 2012, 16:53

Show me an industrial city which doesn't have wasteland; sadly it is a by-product of a changing industrial landscape. But as the large labour-intensive industries have disappeared, then high-tech industries have taken their place.

Why London of course. ATNotts has a valid point about Boris. He is a high profile person that's regularly in the news for what ever reason. Because of his high profile he will no doubt drum up a lot of business. This trip will have been well thought out in advance to promote London as a high end business city. Regarding Brum, I don't even know who the Lord Mayor is!

Getting back on track what happened to the airport delegation that went to Chicago a couple of months ago? Any sign of AA/UA restarting a BHX service? No they are busy increasing services into LHR, where the business is!

Daza

25th Nov 2012, 17:01

Crewmeal I'm surprised you have posted this, normally your posts are thought out and well considered. If airlines weren't able to fill premium cabins why would they fly to Birmingham? Airlines aren't charities and if your statement were true Birmingham would only be served by FR, EZY, ZB etc, this is not the case. Despite your anecdotal evidence of the state of the West Midlands economy what REAL evidence do you have to support your earlier statement about the loss of
Birmingham Airports business passengers?
Some here continously post negative statements about BHX even from supposed "supporters."
Daza :confused:

Daza

25th Nov 2012, 17:06

The people of Birmingham voted against having another over-paid Politician so there won't be a Lord Major at least in the next few years. :D
Daza

crewmeal

25th Nov 2012, 17:15

Daza. You only have to plough through the BHX forums to find ppruners commenting on the lack premium traffic on specific routes. Once BHX had excellent club loads across Europe with BA. What's happened to it now? Even GLA has a regular 3 class cabin to DXB, whilst BHX has only a 2 cabin config. I'm sure there are still routes that support premium traffic, for example FRA, ZRH, HAM, DUS, EWR and maybe one or two others.

At one time BHX had LH 747 freighters going to the US with British Leyland cars. What is left in Longbridge now?

Daza

25th Nov 2012, 17:19

Any evidence or official figures? This appears to be your opinion and if you worked for Maersk guess where BA took many of their business passengers? If BHX can't support business class travel why would LH have added TXL (soon to see an aircraft upgrade) and HAM, why have SK have added ARN and why are they upgrading their am Copenhagen flight in Summer 2013? Why have AF reinstated full AF service?
As for freight it's now at rural East Midlands that isn't severely night time noise restricted due to the close proximity of Birmingham suburbs.
Daza

crewmeal

25th Nov 2012, 17:23

This appears to be your opinion and if you worked for Maersk guess where BA took many of their business passengers?

My point entirely. I'm a great supporter of BHX and refuse to travel from LHR to the Middle East where I go 4-5 times a year. BHX has excellent connections via LH and TK. It's cheaper in most cases and less hassle.

Monty Gordo

25th Nov 2012, 17:25

Crewmeal

London had the biggest wasteland of any city -- the Government turned it into the site for the 2012 Olypics. Oh for Birmingham to have such support for from our MPs.

Longbridge? Have a look at the development taking place....

But if you are and want to be negative, nothing I or anyone else can say will change your mind.

Derwent Dale

25th Nov 2012, 17:27

Daza - Brummies are renowned for only seeing the hole and not the doughnut - as an ex-pat Brummy myself I am no different - much to the chagrin of my significant other - even after the positive news re hangar and jobs, lets do some more navel gazing ...... now its started to rain !" oh hum !

Laasjet

25th Nov 2012, 18:03

Crew Meal

You give the impression that we had lots of LH 747's heading across the pond. There were, in fact, two or three taking Rover cars across for an exhibition when they were about to do a launch and there was not time to ship them by sea. The freighter[s] dropped in en-route.

On the topic of airfreight, we are frequently visited by An12's and the like bringing in car parts.

David

GayFriendly

25th Nov 2012, 19:27

Although full service carriers make up the most of BHX's traffic, how many of them actually fill the premium cabins?

Admittedly a very small sample indeed but I have flown on numerous occasions with TK, LX, LH and KL this year from BHX and have not yet seen more than 5 pax in Business Class, on some flights there were none. Airlines at BHX seem to have historically had a problem consistently filling premium cabins, hence the large number of destinations once served but now consigned to the history books. However in this difficult financial climate we shoudl be glad to have the range of full service carriers we do at BHX and the huge range of connections they offer, with expansion this year from AF, SK and LH. There are many i'm sure up at EMA who would be very happy to see KL let alone the others we have at BHX

I really hope LX stick with BHX, they don't seem at all interested in operating their own metal here. Maybe with more premium pax we would actually see their own aircraft?

scott737

25th Nov 2012, 19:54

An interesting debate. If I may add my thoughts:

(i) as I mentioned a few posts ago, I flew EK earlier this month (EK38/37) and Business was full both ways. I appreciate this is not indicative of each day and is only a snapshot but neither do I think there were too many/if any free upgrades since there were (a few) seats free in Economy;

(ii) I think there are two issues here anyway. The first is the traditional legacy carriers which do, by and large, fly to their hubs which is what (apart from LH) we have at BHX. So I don't suppose we can expect BA to offer services from BHX whilst they pursue this strategy which is more or less the same as every other legacy carrier. They are, rightly or wrongly, more interested in serving other markets than the UK regions.

But the second is where BHX does suffer, in my view, which is in a lack of point-to-point services. Other regional airports are ahead of BHX and so we must lose passengers to the likes of EMA, BRS, LTN, MAN etc. Flybe have been dependable and Monarch fantastic in their expansion this year but in my view, there's no real equivalent of the EZY or Jet2 starting services to the likes of LIS, OPO, BUD, PRG etc (I appreciate the EZY to BFS but other routes have hardly followed after it). Is this, surely core, regional European market one on which BHX should focus and not lose too much sleep over whether BA or VS will fly from it?

Scott

LGS6753

26th Nov 2012, 16:31

Although full service carriers make up the most of BHX's traffic

Not true - most BHX passengers fly on low cost airlines (MON, Baby, Ryanair, TCX and TOM)

Why is premium class capacity so difficult to fill from Brum? Could it be that Midlands business men are more down-to-earth and have a greater interest in keeping their costs down than the bankers, international lawyers and government-employed travellers who may be more likely to use LHR?

(Just an idea:E)

Skipness One Echo

26th Nov 2012, 17:55

Touching on a point made about not being able to fill premium cabins, BHX can and does. The key is volume and yield against competitors like MAN. Continental used to fly the DC10 on BHX-EWR, nowadays it's a single B757. The last time they tried to take it twice daily, I am told the yield collapsed. Clearly people are flying from elsewhere. When BA ran GLA-JFK. BA sales just sent people via LHR to fly on a "real" aeroplane which is nonsense on stilts as they're supposed to be on the same side.

Not sure where growth is going to come from.

ATNotts

26th Nov 2012, 18:36

LGS6753

Not true - most BHX passengers fly on low cost airlines (MON, Baby, Ryanair, TCX and TOM)

I think it depends what you call a low cost airline. TCX and TOM are IT flights, with with a few seats sold as schedules. MON aren't a genuine LoCo - the only ones in your list that are (were) are Baby and Ryanair. All airlines need to be as low a cost as possible, but really of that list Ryanair is the only remaining real LoCo.

OltonPete will probably be able to provide the stats, but I would say that LoCo really provides quite a small share of the cake, in comparison with other regional airports - such as LBA, LPL, BRS, EMA.

As regards the question of yield, I'm sure I remember it being claimed many years ago that NEC and ICC related inbound business traffic provided quite high yields on business routes, but in this day and age, why would any responsible business allow it's employees (or directors) to fritter away the company's travel budget flying business on a 2 hour inter european flight - I know mine won't.

I guess that those with more money than sense in London may have different values.

crewmeal

26th Nov 2012, 18:50

As regards the question of yield, I'm sure I remember it being claimed many years ago that NEC and ICC related inbound business traffic provided quite high yields on business routes

Quite correct. In particular the Spring Fair used to generate very high yields of business traffic. Not sure what happens now, but I'm sure a ppruner will answer that.

justplanecrazy84

26th Nov 2012, 19:26

Does anyone know of a start date for the new hangar? And am i right in guessing by the little slip a few weeks ago it is D5 that will be behind the design and build?

Fairdealfrank

26th Nov 2012, 21:45

Quote: “There is no doubt that BHX, or Manchester will never become a UK hub, however the attitude of BA towards anywhere in the UK that isn't London is lamentable. Even in a similarly "one city" country such as France, AF do offer international services from airports other than those in the capital. BA could make money from the regions; but their business model is that they don't want to. If that wasn't the case, profitable carriers, such as Lufthansa wouldn't be serving their regional airports with direct routes to major business centres, not only in near Europe, but further afield.”

If BA/VS were to run longhaul from BHX (or GLA, MAN, etc.) there would need to be a very high level of point to point traffic as these flights by-pass their hubs and therefore no good to transfer pax.

Clearly, that business does not exist in sufficient numbers. Maybe the equivelant does exist at MUC for LH. There would be no point running these flights just in order to feed a rival operator’s hub!

As mentioned previously, the only reasonable criticsm of BA and VS may be that they no longer feed their own hubs from BHX.

As for point to point shorthaul, the no frills operators have that sown up.

Quote: “I beggars belief that in the referendum last year for whether or not Birmingham should have an elected mayor, a meagre turnout voted against. Boris has a high profile and can make just such trips, drumming up business and investment for his city - so he should, as mayor it's his job. Birmingham has a council leader - hardly as much clout as an elected mayor.

Still, that's democracy for you. Brummies weren't alone in being so short sighted. ”

Not so short sighted as you imply, ATNotts, it would create yet another and very expensive level of bureaucracy as a district level mayor (as proposed for Birmingham) sits on top of the existing council structure.

Its not just a mayor on a massive salary, perks and pension, the mayor appoints assistants and deputies, chief executives, etc., and many other highly paid functionaries, plus an army of “support staff”.

You’ve only to look at the Greater London Assembly structure to see the waste. And don't forget the "mission creep", and the potential for extravagent "vanity projects" courtesy of the ratepayers!

The citizens of Birmingham have just had this kind of expensive nonsense imposed on them (without an approval referendum) in the form of a police commissioner and the accompanying bureaucracy.

Why would they want it twice?

Perhaps Brummies are more canny than you give them credit for!

getonittt

26th Nov 2012, 22:25

justplanecrazy84

Does anyone know of a start date for the new hangar? And am i right in guessing by the little slip a few weeks ago it is D5 that will be behind the design and build?

The work will start in January :ok:

groundhogbhx

26th Nov 2012, 23:58

I remember the DC10's to EWR, 242 pax and 33 tonnes of freight a day and it still lost monry. The 2 757's experiment proved that there was demand for more seats, just not enough to fill 2 flights, so a bigger aircraft was needed which CO didn't have.

Monarch Hanger, work has already started on the test holes and starts in earnest in January and I'm told it will be huge, 10 narrowbody or 3 787's or 2 773's and a narrowbody tail in between or 1 744. There is already a lot of work being booked in so you can expect the odd unusual visitor.

Skipness One Echo

27th Nov 2012, 01:11

Why was the DC10 a loss maker? Premium cabin empty?

pwalhx

27th Nov 2012, 07:50

Fairdealfrank I acept your point about point to point traffic, however whilst BA can and does offer connecting possibilities what does VS Offer. They are not part of an alliance, they will I agree soon have domestic connections, but as of this ppoint what connectivity do they have. Therefore one would assume that the majority of VS traffic is point to point.
Do we then assume that point to point traffic only wish to fly from the South East, no other wise why does VS fly from Manchester to Las vegas, Orlando and the Carribean.
I am prepared to be shot down here, but this has been raised before, it is down to location why Birmingham does not have as much business as it would like, in reality an hour or less North and it is as easy to get to Manchester where there is greater choice and equally the same is true in a southerly direction to wards the South East airports.

GayFriendly

27th Nov 2012, 09:27

I agree pwalhx, access works both ways, being easy to get to means it is easy to get from. Although BHX is my closest and preferred airport (and is just 25 mins away by direct train from Leamington where I live) as a solo traveller with no kids in tow, I can drive to Luton in just over an hour (on a good day mind!), take a direct train to Manchester, with a simple change to get from Piccadilly to the Airport and take a direct train to Reading and get a coach to LHR. Although all take far longer than 25 mins they are very easy journeys and I have done all of these in the last 12 months to catch flights from these airports. With kids and lots of baggage however I would agree that these are not attractive options.

BHX suffers from the fact that people living on the 'edges' of its 'catchment' area are as likely to use EMA, MAN, LTN as BHX. Despite the fact there is a direct flight BHX-TXL I have a friend who lives in Rugby and is flying Easyjet to Berlin this weekend as LTN is just as easy to get to from there (Easy were much cheaper too which swung it). I'm sure other airports must also suffer like BHX losing pax to other airports nearby but perhaps not as badly?

chaps2011

27th Nov 2012, 09:35

Manchester used to with Liverpool but that is now changing in their favour

Chaps

justplanecrazy84

27th Nov 2012, 15:56

I know nothing more has been said about QR and BHX but QR are going to use the 787 to LHR the only aircraft i can see it replacing is the 77L.

Would the 77L be to big to start BHX with or would it be ideal?

Centre cities

27th Nov 2012, 16:39

I think that if it does start it will be an Airbus 330.

In the situation that you describe the 777 would replace an Airbus 330 on an existing route.

Centre cities

nigel osborne

27th Nov 2012, 17:39

justplanecrazy

The 777L is for ultra long routes although a number of airlines use them on shorter journeys which they are not designed for economically.

The ideal plane for BHX would be the 787-8 which Qatar now have. This has the same cabin floor area as a 767-400 and a tad smaller than the A330.

With such long delays in the 787 programme, BHX might find itself getting a A330-200. Qatar have 60 B787S on order three of which have be delivered.

We may be way down their list of priorities for one.

We need to remember though that Qatar still hasn;t set a start date from BHX, and an early summer start looks unlikely now.

Nigel

Fairdealfrank

27th Nov 2012, 19:37

Quote: "Fairdealfrank I acept your point about point to point traffic, however whilst BA can and does offer connecting possibilities what does VS Offer. They are not part of an alliance, they will I agree soon have domestic connections, but as of this ppoint what connectivity do they have. Therefore one would assume that the majority of VS traffic is point to point."

Both BA and VS operate hubs at LHR, it is just that VS's is on a smaller scale. Although VS are not part of Star yet, it looks as they will join sooner rather than later. Like BA, VS need to feed their longhaul flights at LHR hence the need to establish domestic in the absence of BD.

A traveller from, say, Bombay to New York and not travelling direct has a choice of BA or VS, if travelling via LHR on just one carrier, and having baggage checked straight through. So it is not accurate to suggest that VS does just point to point.

Quote: "Do we then assume that point to point traffic only wish to fly from the South East, no other wise why does VS fly from Manchester to Las vegas, Orlando and the Carribean."

That's not to say that VS, or BA for that matter do transfer only. Obviously both carriers have a mix of transfer and point to point pax, and clearly we can we assume that all pax want to fly from all areas, but it isn't always profitable for the airlines. VS can make money on MAN-LAS and MAN-MCO, maybe BA believe that they can't, or that can make more elsewhere.

Quote: "I am prepared to be shot down here, but this has been raised before, it is down to location why Birmingham does not have as much business as it would like, in reality an hour or less North and it is as easy to get to Manchester where there is greater choice and equally the same is true in a southerly direction to wards the South East airports."

Don't think you'll be shot down, being squeezed between Heathrow and Ringway certainly doesn't help!

CabinCrewe

27th Nov 2012, 20:40

I'm sure BA could make some money on MAN routes, its just they can make a lot more elsewhere

justplanecrazy84

27th Nov 2012, 21:51

Thanks Centre Cities didn't think about the 777 being used as a upgrade on a A330 route.

And thank you too Nigel much appreciated. :ok:

insuindi

28th Nov 2012, 12:15

Monarch has pulled the Thursdays MUC-flights for most of the winter until March. Seems to be the same for other airports to MUC as well.

chinapattern

28th Nov 2012, 13:36

I think hopes of QR launching BHX anytime soon are rapidly fading; they've just announced ATH-JFK with the 787. Considering the current state of the Greek economy BHX must be WAY down on their list for new services.

GayFriendly

28th Nov 2012, 14:18

Definately a case of seeing is believing - until then QR at BHX will remain a misty and mysterious rumour.....what their MD says in public and what QR are really planning seem to be two totally different things. This rumour must get the prize for the longest running route rumour in BHX history, it's been going since 2006??

Monty Gordo

28th Nov 2012, 15:16

A BBC-TV Midlands Today film report from BHX this lunchtime announced 'a start has been made on the runway extension'.

Is this 'late-in-the-day' news or does it mean that serious works have now started within the airport perimeter??

nigel osborne

28th Nov 2012, 16:41

Montygordo,

Re press release runway.

No nothing extra happening its just that BHX chose today to announce a press release, suppose they stretch them out to promote themselves throughout the year.

Work has been going on for months having a look today this is the state of play;

Petrol Station demolished this week;

Roof tiles being carefully removed from The Clock Pub prior to demolistion

New airport service road being constructed now through the field behind the Tristar Hotel.

The digging out of the new A45 loop 80% done and hardcore being laid already.New gas main being lain , drainage and large piped culvert for stream divertion inserted.

An awful lot to do but making good progress :ok::D

Nigel

nigel osborne

28th Nov 2012, 16:49

Gayfriendly re Qatar,

Think its more than a rumour as Qatar themselves have announced a BHX service although frustratingly no start date.

I am told that Qatar staff have recently been to BHX checking out everything from cargo facilities, handling equipment and check in desks. BHX has also recently been added as a Qatar station on the airlines drop down menu.

A Qatar crew member has heard there may be a start Nov 13 although an odd time to start.

Cautious optimism perhaps.

Nigel

nigel osborne

28th Nov 2012, 16:51

Cabincrewe;

Re BA.

When BA Regional was pulled and the figures broken down, it was only their BHX service that showed as being profitable,MAN sector made a loss..made it even worse for BHX to here that no doubt !

Nigel

JamesKirk

28th Nov 2012, 17:20

CN just had PK in his hard hat, Hi Viz coat & wellies banging his gums :yuk: about getting direct flights to the US West Coast, China and other load haul destinations. Problem is that we don't :sad: have the required airlines here at BHX to do these flights and given the state of the world economy its unlikely that they will give BHX a 2nd glance, especially after BA & VS having thrown themselves out of the BHX ring!!:ugh:

ATNotts

28th Nov 2012, 18:41

JamesKirk

You won't get many headlines dreaming of a weekly IT charter to Havana! No, if you want to get on Central News, apart from donning the obligatory hard hat and high-vis jacket (thinks: how long before all babies born of British parents will pop out of the womb wearing a high-vis jacket - evolution you know!!), you need to fantasize about sexy long haul destinations such as the US west Coast - other sure fire way of getting on the news is to announce that this that or the other project will "create so many 10s, 100s or 1000s of jobs!!

StoneyBridge Radar

28th Nov 2012, 19:34

Heard only today, the distinct possibility QR may be placing their code on SN flights to Brussels from BHX to connect with QR out of BRU, which in turn may be getting the 787 from Q3 2013.

Consolidation into OneWorld was inevitable, I guess.

If this turns out to materialise, I can only presume it is because QR have seen EK's falling loads whilst TK has gone through the roof; is there room for the three of them at BHX which, in itself, continues to be squeezed by MAN and LHR, not forgetting that LHR will be QR's flagship 787 route for the forseeable...

You could tarmac the whole of Solihull and not encourage new operators to come with that kind of competition.

crewmeal

28th Nov 2012, 20:17

You could tarmac the whole of Solihull and not encourage new operators to come with that kind of competition.

Try telling that to PK. The way he was on BBC tonight left the impression that he was very upbeat about new carriers coming to BHX along with the Midland's economy.

BobBHX

29th Nov 2012, 09:45

One of the suggested new destinations mentioned by PK last night along with the usual suspects was Denpasar! What part of Cloud Cuckoo Land is he on? Much as I would love a flight to Bali (and you'll probably find another half dozen or so in the catchment area) I am perfectly content to fly through Singapore.

Presumably the instruction has been given to the route development team to find a carrier to lay on flights to The Isle of Fernandos.

justplanecrazy84

30th Nov 2012, 06:58

BobBHX

We already do......... Tenerife. Lol :O

BobBHX

30th Nov 2012, 14:47

Ah but by setting up a route to Fernandos it adds to the destinations available from BHX. I'm sure they could rename TFS as Mcguinesss International.:)

justplanecrazy84

30th Nov 2012, 15:37

Lol it does have a ring to it! :ok:

OltonPete

30th Nov 2012, 19:16

All the talk of the extra Monarch flights at Christmas, which were released months ago certainly deflect from the cuts in the New Year.

As previously posted the Munich disappears on a Thursday and it is this day of the week targeted with Venice also reduced to two weekly for a few weeks with Thursday stopping and the Thursday Grenoble also ends early New Year.

LCA down to weekly although it does cool down somewhat in Cyprus for a while but not so Arrecife, which loses a frequency for a few weeks, as does Tenerife to just 5 a week.

An extraordinary day today with a 747 and A340 diverts and with the afternoon EK delayed at present the stands must be getting filled - two x 77W's, 1 x A340, 1 x 747 and 1 x L1011 (West side).

The Transaero 747 was a Bruntingthorpe divert, in other words the aviation equivalant of a stay of execution. The A340 was the Air Blue from Manchester. Who said BHX wasn't getting Air Blue ;)

Added to by several bizjet movements, a Monarch charter from Munich and Adria to Marrakech it has been a good end to the month. Less said about the 9-10 Ryanairs parked up also making it look more like mid-summer despite the somewhat cool temperature.

Pete

Planeaddict

30th Nov 2012, 20:20

A Nov 13 start for Qatar seems ridiculous as I don't see why they would need to wait a whole year to start the service. I think we've established however that it won't be starting this year.

It'd be nice to see Airblue a regular sight at BHX in the future. I guess this 'Shaheen Air' rumour has been quashed as there has been no news.

I don't see why EK couldn't start a third daily service with an A330, or even an A340 (seeing as Glasgow could manage it and it took them at least 7 years to get a second daily flight), are the flights not full enough?

NorthernCounties

30th Nov 2012, 21:51

I've recently signed up for Birmingham airport newsletters to get discounts for parking. Need to urgently book parking. Does anyone know of any discount codes. Many thanks in advance.

justplanecrazy84

30th Nov 2012, 23:06

Northerncounties.

If you have an iphone (not sure if it is on android) download vouchercloud it has lots of offers on there for parking.

Hope this helps.

ATNotts

1st Dec 2012, 06:31

Planeaddict

Look back through this thread and see the passenger numbers and load factors posted by OltonPete on a monthly basis for your answer.

Of course Emirates could offer a third daily services, but what's in it for them? On the face of it, nothing other than dilution of the passengers they are currently carrying across 3 flights instead of 2.

Even Emirates are in it for profit!

AdamG1

1st Dec 2012, 08:16

RE: PK

Here's a thought for the group:

Lately it seems that everytime we see PK on the news or making comments to the media, he always says about flights to the west coast of USA & China etc.

Could it be that maybe he knows something we dont?
Could it be that he has agreements in place with various operators, but for various reasons he cant announce it officially?

My opinion is that we are too close to Manchester & the London airports for any operator to operate the routes profitably. As somebody commented earlier about concreating most of Solihull, I doubt we will get the routes PK wants. Hopefully I am proven wrong!

Best Wishes

Adam

nigel osborne

1st Dec 2012, 09:44

Adam G1.

Re PK.

I don't think he has any agreements yet with airlines ,however they are constantly talking to airlines, and a number of the larger ones have expressed an interest in BHX.

If you don't have the runway length at BHX then you definately won't attract the long haul carriers talked of.

I know there are a number of doomers and gloomers who seem desperate for BHX runway extension to fail. Perhaps it won't deliver, but at least we have a chance now.

Nigel

StoneyBridge Radar

1st Dec 2012, 11:03

I know there are a number of doomers and gloomers who seem desperate for BHX runway extension to fail.

I don't think anyone is desperate for it to fail; afterall, whether one is crew, groundstaff, ATC, coach driver or spotter, almost everyone on PPRuNe has a vested interest in the success of aviation.

Where people sometimes get tarred with the doom and gloom brush is when they question the necessity of the project or ask how the cost is justified.

It could very easily be argued that, even with the current runway, BHX is failing to attract airlines on to routes which could be easily served by the existing runway length.

A very valid and up to date example would be Toronto and Canada generally. An A310 can operate to YYZ out of BHX with no payload restrictions. An A332 could operate to most of Canada out of BHX with no payload restrictions.

Yet Birmingham has just one weekly, seasonal Air Transat A310 to YYZ.

It cannot be blamed on the economic climate when Transat have just this week increased their MAN-YYZ schedule next summer from already a daily service to 8 flights per week with a combination of A310 and A332. Equally, Gatwick is served next summer 10 x weekly to YYZ alone.

You think a few extra metres of concrete is going to have Transat knocking on PK's door to go daily from summer '14? Of course not.

I'll say it again; you can concrete the whole of Solihull, but if airlines can cover the catchment area successfully with operations to the north and south of BHX, without the additional costs associated with another base at BHX, it's going to be a very uphill struggle to justify the extension, not least also with TK and EK becoming well established at BHX for all points east.

My tuppence worth ;)

justplanecrazy84

1st Dec 2012, 11:38

I'm guessing it's all down to the passengers i know for sure say JUST FOR EXAMPLE if ANA started a flight to Japan say £700 rtn and TK done the same for £600 via Istanbul i would pay the extra £100 for the direct flight and same goes with Heathrow if they did the same flight £200 cheaper i would rather pay more to fly from BHX then travel all the way down to London by car or train and have all the hassel of getting to Heathrow from Euston or paying parking and dealing with all the queues at security.

And before anyone says "thats your opinion" yes i know but i'm sure i'm not the only who would do that.

(All prices and airlines were examples and not to be taken to heart lol)

Ringwayman

1st Dec 2012, 12:00

don't see why EK couldn't start a third daily service with an A330, or even an A340 (seeing as Glasgow could manage it and it took them at least 7 years to get a second daily flight),

GLA is only 2 daily. However, a bigger concern may be that they introduced first class at the same time. Quite why BHX has not managed that is something that I'm slightly surprised with.

If this turns out to materialise, I can only presume it is because QR have seen EK's falling loads whilst TK has gone through the roof; is there room for the three of them at BHX which, in itself, continues to be squeezed by MAN and LHR, not forgetting that LHR will be QR's flagship 787 route for the forseeable...

Yet MAN has every day 3 x EK, 2 x TK and EY, with up to 2 x QR though there appears to be no real dilution of passenger numbers when frequencies are bumped which tends to suggest they are living with each other here. The broad catchment area for BHX is surely just as big as that for MAN but somehow they need to try to arrest the flow routing via LHR - I imagine that to be a far greater migration than towards MAN. What kind of marketing campaign does BHX have around the London area?

Planeaddict

1st Dec 2012, 15:49

What would happen if EK just went ahead and started a third daily flight based on the passenger numbers? Or maybe they'll go ahead with it once the Qatar service is confirmed?

Whenever I see these diversions over fog, snow etc, I always seem to imagine that the 80s stands are turned into a pier, and an airbridge connecting it to the terminal. If you see what I'm getting at, maybe make the concept 'come to life' (Google Sketchup would be a good one, someone who has much more knowledge of the airport and is a better sketcher than me :))

I still think Shaheen Air or Airblue are a possiblity. I have contacted both via Facebook and the response from both was quite simple, "We'll keep you updated for any official announcements". I presume that both airlines are talking to BHX, but what they could provide is a non-stop service to Karachi or Lahore which we haven't had in, what, 10 years (when PIA used to use BHX for their transatlantic flights)? If a 772 can make it from Delhi, then an A332 should be a decent option (even without the need of a runway extension). If anyone hears anything let us know :)

Another thing I'd like to point out is the need for an indoor viewing area. I think many would definitely push for a replacement for the Aviation Experience (which was sadly closed just under 2 years ago), anyone heard anything?

OltonPete

1st Dec 2012, 17:21

Planeaddict

ATNotts explained it earlier based on regular load factors of 76-85% they would just spread the passengers out over three flights. The third flight would leave about 9-10am to connect with EK's third biggest departure bank at Dubai. This is mainly routes to Indian and Pakistan so there is a chance that they might pinch some of PIA pax and give that service a problem.

Also if priced right they might re-take some passengers from Turkish but that is hardly an ideal situation. If EK opened up Dubai - Amritsar then that would give the third service a boost but that is affected by UAE-Indo bilaterals I believe before you even consider whether an Amritsar service would be sustainable from Dubai. It is one of the few routes that is not rumoured much although I am sure eventually they will get round to looking at it.

As for Lahore, if my memory serves me right I don't think passenger figures anywhere other than Islamabad from BHX have set the world alight in the past.

Ringwayman - Did they have much choice with Glasgow? The one flight was packed out but doubling capacity would have been a risk so they put one their smallest aircraft in terms of seats on the second flight, although this is to be increased soon as they slowly withdraw the 343 from the fleet. Glasgow's load factors with the A343 have only been in the mid 70's so a 428 seat aircraft I would have thought would have been a disaster. Saying that I believe you can purchase first class on the Glasgow service, which was not an option on BHX when the three class 77W's operated on the evening service.

Are you sure about the dilution statement - I know in October the net figures from all those services were up (QR were the only ones down) but the load factors of the ME carriers were only mid to late 70's, surely yields have been diluted with all the empty seats or have they managed to maintain average fares?

Transat - major disappointment :{

AdamG1

West Coast of America - short-term no chance, medium-term - no chance, long-term - little chance. The only reason I say little is the EK factor, in order words things change and 15 years ago suggesting twice daily EK would have got you a visit from the men in white coats ;)

Pete

BobBHX

1st Dec 2012, 17:47

Flew out this morning and the Transaero 743 and the EK 77W were still parked on the remotes.

nigel osborne

1st Dec 2012, 19:10

Stoneybridge radar,

Not sure BHX are building the extension to fly an extra holiday Air Transit flt to Toronto :ugh: !

Nigel

call100

1st Dec 2012, 19:28

Re PK.....I doubt he has anything lined up for over a year into the future. It'll just be more bull to add to his ever growing catalog....

StoneyBridge Radar

1st Dec 2012, 20:01

Nigel osbourne, as usual, you miss the point. :ugh::ugh: :=

Suggest you re-read. :*

Skipness One Echo

1st Dec 2012, 21:25

The runway extension is not needed.
I suspect like a lot of businesses, it won't do any harm to add it AND it ticks the box of BEING SEEN to be DOING SOMETHING/ANYTHING in a difficult trading environment. The business case is tenuous, the number of likely flights who would ever need it seems remote.

Stopend

1st Dec 2012, 22:47

Diagree, the more runway you have the better off you are! Flexibility is the key. It should have been done 10 years ago.

Skipness One Echo

2nd Dec 2012, 00:01

D0iagree, the more runway you have the better off you are! Flexibility is the key. It should have been done 10 years ago.
Name three likely routes and aircraft types that would actually *need* it and are currently mot serving the market having so much as mentioned runway length.

Let me start : Not QATAR, not Etihad.

Fairdealfrank

2nd Dec 2012, 00:08

Quote: “I still think Shaheen Air or Airblue are a possiblity. I have contacted both via Facebook and the response from both was quite simple, "We'll keep you updated for any official announcements". I presume that both airlines are talking to BHX, but what they could provide is a non-stop service to Karachi or Lahore which we haven't had in, what, 10 years (when PIA used to use BHX for their transatlantic flights)? If a 772 can make it from Delhi, then an A332 should be a decent option (even without the need of a runway extension). If anyone hears anything let us know”

Expect that these routes would be mostly VFR business looking for low fares, not many first and business class pax. Maybe in the present conditions these routes are not sustainable, especially as EKand TK could have much of this business sown up.

Planeaddict

2nd Dec 2012, 09:20

Name three likely routes and aircraft types that would actually *need* it and are currently mot serving the market having so much as mentioned runway length.

Let me start : Not QATAR, not Etihad.

Air China, direct route from Beijing. American Airlines, direct from San Francisco.

That's all I could come up with.

Planeaddict

2nd Dec 2012, 09:52

I definitely think they would need to expand the terminal a bit. A new pier would come into use when the runway extension is done so I'd reckon they start on it soon.

Since 'Airtrans Limited' ceased traiding over the Aviation Experience, is there any other company which could do so?

chinapattern

2nd Dec 2012, 10:18

Air China, direct route from Beijing. American Airlines, direct from San Francisco.

But AA don't offer any international service from SFO so why would they fly to BHX?

OltonPete

2nd Dec 2012, 10:18

SOE

One at the moment - Thomson Cancun. Stops at Manchester outbound and as it is not listed on Thomson from Manchester I assume it is not picking up pax.

BHX-Vancouver weekly summer only (linking two Sikh expat destinations) is a possible route as is Vegas. I don't believe either would be possible direct at present although I agree three flights a week (Cancun, Vancouver, Vegas) is hardly a business case taken in isolation but who knows what the future holds especially looking East.

Full length use

The other environmental aspect is if the full length off 33 is used then the noise footprint over Birmingham will be reduced a little bit. I assume this will not be enforced by the lack of spin.

Planeaddict Viewing area - unless there is money in it then BHX won't be interested. It will have to be a private venture and that is a tough ask at present

San Francisco - No. Even if someone started it then it would not last beyond a season.

Pete

ATNotts

2nd Dec 2012, 11:45

Skipness One Echo:

Absolutely agree with you, the runway extension will not pay back the investment in the short, or even the medium term, but equally it probably will pay back more quickly than it will do at Cardiff -which I seriously doubt will ever turn a profit without some pretty creative accounting (that is the runway extension, not the airport itself).

San Francisco is a complete no-no - you would have to assume that any destination westwards that MAN cannot make work, won't work from BHX either, so that leaves the least unlikely destinations as being New York, Chicago, Atlanta and Orlando - of those I can only see Chicago and Orlando as realistic possibles.

Looking East, and if Manchester cannot sustain direct services to Singapore and Hong Kong, how is BHX supposed to sustain Beijing or Shanghai?

I'm sure that on the ITX front, there will be benefits with direct services to Cuba, and more choice to the other Carribbean islands, and also to destinations like Goa. These alone won't pay for the runway!

What the runway will give is the chance for the airport sales team to market itself effectively to long haul carriers, which it could never do without it. How effective it (the sales team) will be remains to be seen.

North West

2nd Dec 2012, 12:02

The mentality seems to be "if it isn't happening today, it never will in the future". Surprising really considering the last 10 years the industry has been through and it's barely recognisable to how it looked 20 - 25 years ago.

mattjwood

2nd Dec 2012, 12:13

Was on the A45 today going past BHX around 10am where I couldn't help but notice the 747 parked up by the runway ( terminal side ). From what I could see it had " transcargo" on the side with a kind of Air France emblem on the tail.

Any idea why it was here? Is this normal?

Matt

NJTCF

2nd Dec 2012, 13:14

The above was a divert from Bruntingthorpe Friday. Going there for scrapping. An expensive divert:ok:

mattjwood

2nd Dec 2012, 14:26

Ahhh thanks NJTCF!

Although its a great sight to see at BHX..... When is it due to be moved? It looks extremely out of place and looks like its just been " dumped " so to speak!

Matt

Guest 112233

2nd Dec 2012, 20:17

I'm exactly no expert in things like this, but I assume the noise print reduction (33 Depatrures) will be because the lengthened runway means that for a given take off mass the flights will be just that bit higher for a given path along the SID used. OK so far..

Now for the awkward bit and I may be on sticky ground here.

The devil is in the detail, and those with operational experience will say I'm grossly oversimplifying things no doubt.

The runway is being extended by 405 Metres to approx 3005 Metres in length plus an extra 150 metres starter run up, giving 3155 metres TORA ofI Rwy 33. I realise in expert's terms that this is imprecise because of Runway End Safety Areas, adjustments for slope and the geometry of the Aircraft turn on to the line up point etc. The actual detail of what's actually been done seems a vague.

And here in lies the problem, 33 I understand. But a lot of the time the reciprocal end will be used and although I have seen drawings where the threshold markings of the 33 End are displaced towards the extended part. the displacement is not as far as the physical extension of the runway - the starter bit being excluded. (I do know the difference between TORA,TODA and ASDA but not in enough detail for the experts ) Edit:I realise that the 33 threshold cannot be right at the end of the pavement

Does this mean that on days where the wind is from the south ? with sufficient speed say > 5 Knots, the full benefits of the Runway extension will not be available. So what we really have is a one way extension? and is this significant for the type of long haul services being described ?

Keeping the expectation within bounds

CAT III

chinapattern

3rd Dec 2012, 14:21

Winter 2013/4 long-haul released and it is showing an increase.

Also could there be more to come with a new flight? I suspect a cruise flight will operate on the Friday or Saturday.

Punta Cana is showing as a destination from BHX in the drop down menu but no flights showing as yet.

insuindi

3rd Dec 2012, 14:32

Lufti is being serious about BHX - on the weekend Lufthansa had an extra stall at the Xmas market where people could win all sorts of prizes for some challenges such as pronouncing long German words.

Norsemanuk

3rd Dec 2012, 18:05

Has anybody tried this newly renovated lounge?
Understand that hot food is now available,although no choice.
Also the First Lounge now open at BHX.
The latter seem to offer "upgraded" facilities.Wonder if they have signed up any airlines.
Star Alliance use the Servisair lounge,apart from drinks and a few snacks they were pretty useless, but any updates on the revised lounge would be appreciated.

Norsemanuk

3rd Dec 2012, 18:10

Surprised to see a rampacked LH 2509 last Friday.Even C class was full (4).
Considering Monarch has started this route,be interesting to see how long they will last.Apart from some tempting low fares, LH offers a superior service and decent schedules, and I reckon that Monarch will not last more than a season on this route.

insuindi

3rd Dec 2012, 18:36

The Monday MUC-BHX and Thursday evening/Friday BHX-MUC flights are usually very full - you'll find that it's easily 50% BMW employees on them who will have a firm contract with LH from MUC.

So whilst flights on those specific days may not be the best indicator to use, I do share the doubts around Monarch's future on this route. If they last into summer it may work - trouble is of course that the high-yield business will stick to LH for its far more attractive frequency of flights.

OltonPete

3rd Dec 2012, 20:59

I seem to remember someone asking about domestic stats - Here are the April to September figures using the CAA passenger figures and the CAA punctuality stats showing the actual number of rotations - should be accurate. However load factors won't be so accurate as I have just estimated based on what I believe was scheduled. Jersey/Guernsey have been added together for averages/load factors.

April

Aberdeen------ 7554-----46 pax---59%
Belfast City---30161----69 pax---60%
Dundee--------- 1227----18 pax---53%
Derry-------------4723---131pax---73%
Edinburgh-----20562----76 pax--71%
Glasgow-------15515----54 pax--51%
Inverness-------2436----47 pax---60%
Isle of Man-----3581----38 pax--48%
Guernsey-------2202----
Jersey-----------4070----53 pax---68%
Newcastle-------953----11 pax---37%

May

Aberdeen------ 8451-----43 pax---55%
Belfast City---29507----63 pax---56%
Dundee--------- 1399----17 pax---50%
Derry-------------4573---135 pax---71%
Edinburgh-----25416----76 pax---69%
Glasgow-------19167----57 pax--53%
Inverness-------2781----48 pax---61%
Isle of Man-----3640----35 pax--45%
Guernsey-------2264----
Jersey-----------4309----44 pax---56%
Newcastle------1243----12 pax---40%

June

Aberdeen------ 7785-----43 pax---55%
Belfast City---26399----72 pax---62%
Dundee--------- 1385----20 pax---60%
Derry-------------4809---141 pax---75%
Edinburgh-----24925----80 pax---74%
Glasgow-------18264----57 pax--61%
Inverness-------3247----54 pax---69%
Isle of Man-----4582----45 pax--55%
Guernsey-------2615----
Jersey-----------5367----51 pax---66%
Newcastle-------953----10 pax---35%

July

Aberdeen------ 7883-----43 pax---55%
Belfast City---25789----76 pax---67%
Dundee--------- 1600----18 pax---54%
Derry-------------5358---149 pax---79%
Edinburgh-----25529----74 pax---68%
Glasgow-------18164----61 pax--62%
Inverness-------3345----56 pax---72%
Isle of Man-----4059----40 pax--52%
Guernsey-------2513----
Jersey-----------5281----49 pax---63%
Newcastle-------446----12 pax---43%

August

Aberdeen------ 7030-----45 pax---58%
Belfast City---27780----81 pax---71%
Dundee--------- 1694----19 pax---58%
Derry-------------5810---161 pax---85%
Edinburgh-----25158----81 pax---75%
Glasgow-------18547----59 pax--59%
Inverness-------3655----60 pax---77%
Isle of Man-----4020----48 pax--52%
Guernsey-------2615----
Jersey-----------5817----52 pax---67%
Newcastle-------nil----N/A pax---N/A%

September

Aberdeen------ 7534-----45 pax---58%
Belfast City---27436----79 pax---69%
Dundee--------- 1481----20 pax---59%
Derry-------------4618---136 pax---72%
Edinburgh-----24679----76 pax---70%
Glasgow-------19408----57 pax--56%
Inverness-------3235----57 pax---73%
Isle of Man-----3404----34 pax--44%
Guernsey-------2762----
Jersey-----------6187----59 pax---74%
Newcastle-------854----- 9 pax---29%

Pete

BobBHX

4th Dec 2012, 09:08

I was in the lounge on Saturday morning. The new offerings were small bacon rolls, very similar to the ones you get at BA lounges at LHR T5.

Overall the refurbished lounge is quite nice, especially the new entrance. Putting a low wall down the middle helps to break up the area.

justplanecrazy84

4th Dec 2012, 15:39

Vueling are expanding a lot recently, I wonder what the chances of them possibly starting a BHX-MAD service??

I reckon they could do well.

Norsemanuk

4th Dec 2012, 17:27

BobBHX

Thanks for feedback.
Will try this lounge next week,normally the Becks from the chiller is quite tasty.:ok:

NJTCF

5th Dec 2012, 06:16

EGBB Taking Divs from the above as both snow closed.

3 x Wizz A320s 2 x RYR 738s. 1 x EZY 319.

Least there are enough stands to put them.:ok:

In the end we took 5 x Wizz A320s 2 x RYR 738s. 1 x EZY319. 1 X Swiss 146.:D

ericlday

5th Dec 2012, 08:13

Wow the excitement !!!!

Monty Gordo

5th Dec 2012, 08:47

Perhaps a day of opportunity for BHX!

Again it has played a major role when snow hits the eastern side of the country and, of course, it again gives the opportunity for airlines to appreciate the facilities in Brum.

Secondly, for those incoming pax who are onward to London, they might realise that it is easier to transit by rail to London from Bhx than Luton, certainly, and Stansted, probably a more frequent service.

Also, it would be handy to see statistics which identify which airports in the UK are forced to divert incoming flights due to snow and which airports accept those diverts. Anyone know??

nigel osborne

5th Dec 2012, 14:11

NJTCF

Unfortunately not enough stands for the Singapore Airlines B777-300ER which had to divert to EMA !!!!!!!

Our 2 true widebodied remote stands capable, has Ryan Air park ups on them :mad::=:( :{:{

Nigel

nigel osborne

5th Dec 2012, 14:19

Plane addict;

Phuket, Calgary, Vancouver, Las Vegas, for charters spring to mind too.

Unfortunately far too many on here talking about short term.The runway extension is here forever and its mainly built for medium,long term so who knows what will happen in the future.

Im not going to comment any more on this topic, the gloomers will carry on bashing BHX whatever,,carry on without me.

Nigel

Navpi

5th Dec 2012, 16:47

SQ asked on Ops for BHX but was told there was no room !

crewmeal

5th Dec 2012, 16:58

Hindsight is a wonderful thing! I'm sure the airport would have welcomed an SQ flight (First I guess). It would even be a good advert for the airport and I'm sure if they knew about it sooner they would have turned away the LTN & STN diversions and let them go to EMA. But it didn't happen and that's the price BHX has paid for a tarmac full of FR planes.

Did FR use airbridges? I thought they always used their own stairs to reduce handling charges!

Laasjet

5th Dec 2012, 17:57

ATNotts

5th Dec 2012, 17:57

Crewmeal

the price BHX has paid for a tarmac full of FR planes.

But, the Ryanair fleet is paying BHX day in day out for parking - we don't know at what rate, but I would imagine the cumulative revenue earned over a month might come to slight more than Singapore would have paid for a "splash and dash" exercise. As for an advert, are Midlands Today or Central News going to cover a diverting 777, unless it ran off the end of the runway? I think not!

However inconvenient the commercial deal between BHX and Ryanair might seem to be when there's an interesting movement that can't be accepted as a result the airport is a business which (should) make decisions for sound financial reasons, not for sentimental ones.

ATNotts

5th Dec 2012, 18:01

Laasjet

Is it true that FR are not paying for using BHX as a parking lot

Who knows, but I actually doubt it very much. Nobody with any sense that does is going to post the answer on this or any other public forum!

Laasjet

5th Dec 2012, 18:04

ATNott

So we can take as official that FR are paying something for parking?

Do you know or is conjecture? I am sure that many of us at BHX are more than a little interested.

David

ATNotts

5th Dec 2012, 18:34

Laasjet

So we can take as official that FR are paying something for parking

Absolutely not. I have no connection with BHX management, or for that matter Ryanair and apart from parties involved in the appropriate departments in either organisation, nobody should know.

However BHX is a business, with shareholders that require a return on their investment. BHX makes a profit, and it would seem more than slightly surprising if they were doing so by giving away freebies left right and centre.

OltonPete

6th Dec 2012, 19:09

New Germanwings available to customers from July 2013 - Business Traveller (http://www.businesstraveller.com/news/new-germanwings-available-to-customers-from-jul)

Not good news for BHX going by GDS at present. The increase to the A320 on Berlin has turned full circle with a capacity cut for next summer.

It remains daily but back to the A319 in the week and the weekend is on the CRJ9, not just surprising as it is a cut in capacity but they don't have CRJ9's based in Berlin at the moment.

Hamburg is still showing a cut from last summer - just six a week CRJ9.

Hopefully early days and plenty of time to change.

At least Frankfurt at present is seeing more A320's and A321's.

Pete

update - getting A320's as well from Lufthansa so still a chance

Germanwings takes over nearly 30 Lufthansa A320s (http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/germanwings-takes-over-nearly-30-lufthansa-a320s-379923/)

justplanecrazy84

7th Dec 2012, 08:23

Even Christoph Franz is saying BA should be called "Heathrow Airways" lol

ATNotts

7th Dec 2012, 12:01

BA had the perfect opportunity to do what LH has done when they owned Go Fly.

GO offered a reasonable standard product, and could have been deployed at airports like Birmingham, Bristol, Manchester, Newcastle, Glasgow and Edinburgh to offer point to point services to leisure and business destinations in Europe, using effectively a 3-class config.

BA unfortunately cannot see further than the end of 28L, and the result is that a UK owned airline has abdicated business from outside London to European and Middle Eastern carriers - much in the way that UK manufacturing has largely been outsourced to China and India.

The result is the economy we are enduring today.

North West

7th Dec 2012, 14:58

Odd then that BA uplifted 389,000 passsengers between UK regions and their hub in October, compared to 184,000 for the MEB3 in the same month.

BA start a 4 x daily service between Leeds and Heathrow this weekend. That will give them 7 regional spokes into LHR vs 4 departure points covered by the MEB3. BA provide coverage in N.I. and Yorkshir, unlike the middle east carriers

Odd also that the supposed poster boy for "regionalisation" - Lufthansa, announced this week that they would be making a swaithe of cost cutting measures on their long-haul business. They explicitly blamed competition from the gulf carriers and reiterated their claims of unfair competition from govt funded airport development in the middle east.

Whether they are right or wrong on this matter, the fact remains that the dual or multi-hub strategy they have in Germany has not so far proved a defence against Emirates and the others.

ATNotts

7th Dec 2012, 16:52

North West

Come on, I am aware that there are lies, darned lies, and statistics and your figures just about prove the point.

A very large percentage of BA domestic passengers from airports further north than Manchester are travelling point to point. However, anyone wanting to travel to London from Manchester on business would need their heads looking at to fly to Heathrow - unless their business was on the Heathrow side of London. On such short journeys the hassle of flying makes rail the obvious answer for the business passenger.

And why restrict your stats to the middle eastern carriers, a large percentage of Lufthansa, Air France, KLM, Swiss and Turkish passengers flying to and from Birmingham are not terminating at the FRA, CDG, AMS etc - but transiting.

The difference with Lufthansa, is that even through their newly metamorphasised group member, they will offer decent European business services from most major Germany airports - BA offer nothing, zilch, diddly squat. They have little interest in the UK outside of London.

In my opinion, that's not good for UK Plc, though of course the bean counters in BA may feel it's better for their shareholders!

GayFriendly

7th Dec 2012, 21:18

It remains daily but back to the A319 in the week and the weekend is on the CRJ9

Quite frankly I am amazed. I have travelled on this route on a number of weekends and it is always rammed on a 319. OK so a lot of the traffic is probably price sensitive so the yield may not be great but I simply cannot see how a CR9 will be anywhere near big enough to cope with demand I have seen. I could understand it if there is a price hike to increase yield from the now lower pax capacity offered by the CR9 but I have dummy booked through weekends in May, June and July and the lowest £39 Economy Saver fares are readily available.

On the plus side weekend flight times are better with a 1450 Sun dep from TXL, much better than the 0700 ish it had been changed to. I really do hope this change is a work in progress......

call100

8th Dec 2012, 11:06

I was absolutely flabbergasted when the SQ chose EMA this morning then I realised that the optimum stands had been stuffed with FR machines.
The price that you have to pay for pandering to FR, no doubt.

Is it true that FR are not paying for using BHX as a parking lot? If so, there is something seriously wrong with the decision making at Brum.

David The airport does not make the sole decisions who comes in and who doesn't. It is all done in consultation with the handling agents, ATC, Terminal control etc etc. There is more to consider than just stand/parking space.
It would be hard to turn away an aircraft early on just in case you could accommodate a spotters fantasy later on in the operation.

OltonPete

8th Dec 2012, 14:07

Just to add to the CRJ900 operating the weekend Berlin in summer and that is it is the BHX - HAM aircraft (and crew?) operating it.

The HAM-BHX arrives early Saturday morning and operates HAM-BHX-TXL-BHX-HAM and the same happens on a Sunday but slightly.

Perhaps I can understand the Saturday but like GF has said a bit strange re Sunday service. The last time I checked BHX-HAM it was non-ops on a Saturday like winter 2012/3, so at least there is now a daily flight.

Good to hear Germanwings getting some A320's and hopefully these might get used in the week.

Pete

Laasjet

8th Dec 2012, 18:35

Don't connect with the "spotters fantasy". It is just that we at BHX are somewhat sensitive about the cuckoos sitting around and the potential impact on business of whatever kind.

David

call100

9th Dec 2012, 00:23

Don't connect with the "spotters fantasy". It is just that we at BHX are somewhat sensitive about the cuckoos sitting around and the potential impact on business of whatever kind.

David
If you insist, but, it's just a figment of your imagination and you shouldn't use 'we'. Not everyone at BHX has the same fantasy.....;)

hec7or

9th Dec 2012, 11:58

The "cuckoos" are all flying regularly in planned rotation are are not just parked up.

Laasjet

9th Dec 2012, 17:53

Indeed, I am fully aware but as one goes another takes it's place and so the sum total remains the same until they fly the nest as Spring approaches.

David

pwalhx

9th Dec 2012, 18:03

Similar comments were made about Manchester's reluctance to take diversion at times to which the reply was they prefer to keep regular customers happy. Consider this that Ryanair is offering a regular income stream for the parking of their aircraft which brings in more than the odd chance diversion from other airlines.

mustbeaboeing

9th Dec 2012, 21:13

BHX Parking of Ryanair Aircraft.

Just wondered why they are not parked on the 'old' 06/24 runway (sorry cannot remember what taxiway it is called now).

I believe it cannot be used as a taxyway at certain times anyway.

Take three/four, or however many they want, each day off the front. And park up at the rear, those 'finished with'

OK so it would need use of tug to pull them forward.

But it would free up 'regular' parking stands.

Anyone from BHX, reading this?

Just wondered

Stopend

9th Dec 2012, 22:47

Wouldn't fit like the old 737s used to (winglets). And your assuming there would be a tow crew and engineer available at the right time, and believe me that's something of a big assumption these days! if you want to rotate the acft in and out of service they need to be accessable. That means parked on the ramp.

Skipness One Echo

9th Dec 2012, 23:22

In my opinion, that's not good for UK Plc, though of course the bean counters in BA may feel it's better for their shareholders!
Why are you blaming a private company for the woes of UK Plc? Do you*honestly* think strategic state ownership (Railtrack anyone?) is a better option. Interested to hear more of how GO was essential a "three class carrier" as I recall only one.
The reason BA sold GO was it was taking up so much management time looking at what was happeneing at STN was hammering BA's core short haul which was already struggling.
It's not personal, it is business, and that's exactly why you need "bean counters". Without decent bean counters, you get the Edinburgh tram fiasco, the Scottish Parliament, everything ever bought by the MOD, SABENA, Portcullis House and more recently, the West Coast Rail franchise bnidding system. Could have done with some beancounters wouldn't you say?

Besides it hasn't been 28L since the mid '80s. Much like your argument if I may say. I might remind you that gifting the BA Regional operation at BHX to GO would have been poisonous for staff who would see all they had worked hard for years to maintain given away. Now we know now saving that operation was not to be, but that would have been a tough ask! The main worry for BHX in that regard is that it's been completely unloved by EZY who do a good job on business and are getting better.

Suzeman

10th Dec 2012, 07:32

OK so it would need use of tug to pull them forward.

Which no doubt Mr O'Leary would be happy to pay for.....:eek:

ATNotts

10th Dec 2012, 07:54

Skipness One Echo

Interested to hear more of how GO was essential a "three class carrier" as I recall only one.

Do wish you'd read the comment before responding!

I suggested that they (BA) COULD HAVE used GO as a platform to do with it what LH is now doing with their one-class, low cost carrier. Perhaps it's a case of different decade, new thinking, if I was to give BA the benefit of the doubt.

All that said, I don't miss BA at BHX, the LH product in particular is well suited to my and thousands of other's requirements.

28L

I don't imagine their view beyond the end of 27L is much different!

BHX5DME

10th Dec 2012, 12:26

easyJet adds extra flights to Birmingham

Published: 10 December 2012
easyJet, Northern Ireland’s largest airline, is to increase its flights between Belfast International Airport and Birmingham in response to high demand.
A second Sunday flight departing at 13.25 from Belfast and 14.50 from Birmingham will be added to the schedule from 31 March 2013. Flights are now on sale at www.easyJet.com (http://www.easyjet.com/) with fares from £22.99, one way including taxes.
easyJet began its Belfast International to Birmingham service in October 2012 and in just over one month has flown 14,000 passengers on the route. The additional frequency will add an estimated 13,000 passengers per year taking the total to 150,000.
Ali Gayward, easyJet Head of Northern Ireland said: “We only launched our Birmingham route in October and due to an overwhelming demand for affordable fares, we are delighted to announce the doubling of our Sunday flights. This additional frequency will see an increase from 12 to 13 flights per week.
“Our aim has always been to make travel easy and affordable and we’re delighted to be able to show further commitment to Northern Ireland by responding to demand and adding the extra service.
“Sunday is a strong travelling day for both business commuters and people on weekend breaks, therefore doubling our Sunday offering will give our passengers further choice in flight times at affordable prices..
Earlier this month easyJet introduced allocated seating on all Belfast flights from 27 November. This, and Flexi fares that allow passengers to change their flights up to two hours before departure, further reinforces easyJet’s position as Belfast’s leading airline for business passengers.

insuindi

10th Dec 2012, 13:24

this morning's LH service MUC-BHX had a 100% load, with some pax of the waiting list in MUC remaining behind. thanks to BMW staff shuttling and connecting pax LH seems not to be under too much pressure from the slightly later Monarch A321 service.

On a side note, last Friday's 0840 LX to ZRH was originally timetabled as an Avro, but then became an A319.

justplanecrazy84

10th Dec 2012, 14:56

Good news on the EZY front hopefully this will give them the confidence to test the water on a new route!

Laasjet

10th Dec 2012, 17:59

If only. To-days announcement about the extra Belfast flight includes the phrase "showing our commitment to Northern Ireland". Nothing about a commitment to Birmingham.

Most of us have been hoping and praying for some good news for BHX since we would welcome them with open arms.

David

Wee Weasley Welshman

10th Dec 2012, 19:46

The reason BA sold GO was it was taking up so much management time looking at what was happeneing at STN was hammering BA's core short haul which was already struggling.

Not really. The non-executive board members of BA were scared stiff of the cabin crew unions calling another strike over the prospect of Go 'stealing' 'their' short haul work. As soon as the CEO changed they pressured him into avoiding conflict and selling the wildly successful Go for £110m to venture capitalist. Stelios bought it a year later and now Gatwick has 52 A320's in orange tails parked every night whilst BA cabin crew now join on less money than easyJet cabin crew. Face-Palm!

BHX seems to dream of being some longhaul supplement to LHR which is sad because it never will be. BRS has provided an interesting comparison to BHX. It has tripled where the other has flatlined. There is a very simple reason for that.

WWW

EI-BUD

10th Dec 2012, 20:25

Ref to GO, I recall BA were trying to raise cash at the time and the airline had only turned a corner when they sold it.

getonittt

10th Dec 2012, 22:33

BRS has provided an interesting comparison to BHX. It has tripled where the other has flatlined. There is a very simple reason for that.

because BHX retains the direct EWR flight where BRS have not ?
because BHX gained an SAS stockholm flight when BRS lost theirs?
because BHX consolidate and gain strong german links with lufthansa where bristol have not?

need i go on , yes bristol had some halycon days in the mid naughties compared to others and now they are in a state of consolidation as is BHX, and i don't believe BHX has flatlined. So what is the " interesting comparison" of these 2 airports WWW?

justplanecrazy84

10th Dec 2012, 22:40

Quick question. The deal between QF and EK, could it generate more pax for BHX and other uk airports out of London EK fly to?
Correct me if i'm wrong here but the passengers traveling down to Heathrow to travel with QF can now (from april 2013) travel from BHX on EK metal to Dubai and connect on QF flight to Australia............ right? Or am I getting this totally wrong??

jabird

10th Dec 2012, 22:50

and i don't believe BHX has flatlined. So what is the " interesting comparison" of these 2 airports WWW?

Well you can believe what you want, I'll go with the stats:

Up to 2003 - steady rise to 9.1m
Peak in 2008 - 9.6m, so that was already pretty flat.
Now (2011) 8.6m.

If that isn't flat lining, what is?

As for Bristol, the city proper is half the size of Brum, and any wide catchment is dispersed over a much bigger area, so 5.8m pax is pretty good in comparison.

jabird

10th Dec 2012, 23:30

because BHX retains the direct EWR flight where BRS have not ?
because BHX gained an SAS stockholm flight when BRS lost theirs?
because BHX consolidate and gain strong german links with lufthansa where bristol have not?

This sounds like the kind of attitude which explains why BHX is indeed so level. These are the "prestige" routes - legacy carriers and routes which presumably make good money for the airlines.

What sort of pax are best for the airports? Legacy business, breezing through the terminal, picking up a free paper and maybe a latte, or families parking their car, buying a full meal and loads of goodies?

I presume the up front pax generate a reasonable yield for use of the business lounge, but when is all said and done, what sort of passenger keeps the tills rolling for the longest?

Moreover, where is this "offer I can't refuse" Stelios asked for almost a decade ago? Why are we just parking FR jets instead of helping them launch more routes? Why have we accepted such piss-poor route development progress from BE?

Even when it comes to long haul, PHL came and went, DOH still just a rumour. Where's AUH? None of these need the extended runway. Would be good to see ORD return if the runway re-enables it, but how many more hubs is BHX going to feed?

Sure, the extension could bring more LH leisure - along with longer parking stays, more hotel use and more terminal spend perhaps, but this focus on the fantasy HS2+hub, rather than short term European loco routes can't make commercial sense.

getonittt

10th Dec 2012, 23:32

that is taking my post out of context , if you want stats :

Bristol 2008 - 6.2M
Now (2011) - 5.7M

percentage wise about the same...so both consolidating , anyway ., i don't want to make this a BRS V BHX thread i'm just a little miffed WWW added that at the bottom of his thread about Go and Gatwick or whatever ... :mad:

pwalhx

11th Dec 2012, 07:26

crewmeal

11th Dec 2012, 09:09

Some good points raised about flying to Australia. But overall I think cost may have a great deal to do with it as well. With APD rising again next year, flying from BHX might not necessarily be the best option. However if EK keep their regional fares lower than say BA do out of LHR then they could be on a winner.

jabird

11th Dec 2012, 13:17

With APD rising again next year, flying from BHX might not necessarily be the best option.

Not sure this would be a big loss to BHX on the Kangaroos. For the USA or Asia, you can hop to DUB / CDG / AMS etc then skip on a longer sector, this only paying "local" APD rate. None of the above are any good for OZ & NZ, so any attempt to save money is more likely to back fire with a signficantly longer overall journey.

I have heard claims that "large numbers" are using other airports for the longer legs, but not seen any verification.

ATNotts

11th Dec 2012, 17:45

With APD rising again next year, flying from BHX might not necessarily be the best option.

Perhaps the statement should be "With APD rising again next year, FLYING might not necessarily be the best option".

Combined with the costs of parking, the inconvenience of security and the long check-in times that are required because of the security checks, driving, or taking the train shorter distances to the European mainland have become more viable and pleasant means of transport.

crewmeal

12th Dec 2012, 14:37

And so the debate of the extension to the runway goes on. It's now on you tube. I only hope it all comes true:

Birmingham Airport Runway Extension - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=v9_3BFWtBQw)

I think this one is better, no talk of what it's going to do just action.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=642J6EbASoE

TSR2

12th Dec 2012, 16:00

Good grief, the runway looks like a rollercoaster.

Monty Gordo

12th Dec 2012, 16:30

I'm afraid I can't agree with you Crewmeal. Without a soundtrack it should be clear what the video is all about, particularly to people not attune with the engineering works currently under way

And what is the message carried in this video? As TSR2 says, it makes the existing runway look like a roller-coaster with planes approaching above heavy earth-moving equipment.

Nil point!!

crewmeal

12th Dec 2012, 16:56

Without a soundtrack it should be clear what the video is all about

Exactly my point. I agree with you, it should be clear as to what is going on! However I'm not on prune to point score as you seem to be every time I comment on a topic.

GayFriendly

12th Dec 2012, 17:23

Very interesting and honest interview with PK in this weeks anna.aero online newsfeed, with the following being noteworthy:

1. The runway extension is focused at both long and medium haul traffic and to keep up with a new generation of medium haul aircraft - does he mean the 787?

2. He supposes that eventual liberalisation in UK-India and China bilaterals will open up competing traffic opportunities to LHR from these countries

3. He admits that BHX have a history of 'backing the wrong airline' and that they should have engaged a lot earlier with FR and EZY

4. An agreement was signed with AI to fly to ATQ but the Chairman that signed it was sacked and BHX is now back at square one in its negotiations with AI

5. Chicago is quite obviously PK's primary hope for a new destination once the extension opens

30-seconds with: Paul Kehoe, CEO, Birmingham Airport | anna.aero (http://www.anna.aero/2012/12/12/30-seconds-with-paul-kehoe-ceo-birmingham-airport/?utm_source=anna.aero+newsletter&utm_campaign=15ace262a7-anna_nl_121212&utm_medium=email)

Grafters

12th Dec 2012, 17:43

Hello does anyone know why Birmingham airport does not have some sort of airside food canteen available to members of staff? As the airport is expanding i would have thought this may be a possibility within the near future?
Any thoughts would be appreciated.

hec7or

12th Dec 2012, 20:08

FR have had a staff canteen for some time, you just have to bring your own food!!

nigel osborne

12th Dec 2012, 21:05

Gayfriendly Re PK Interview.

Yes agree an honest interview, ex BHX marketing Marc Watkins now works for anna.aero I believe after leaving Cov Airport, interview so perhaps down to him.

BHX usual bad luck.. sign a contract with Air India then that person gets sacked !

Not sure what he means by medium haul..the 787 is a long haul to ultra long haul plane. Might be talking up the A321NEO, BHX EWR service is reliant on ageing 757s as would any Chicago.

However the 321AEO still won't have the legs for such routes and loads required if you look at the specs.

Nigel

jabird

13th Dec 2012, 01:13

BHX usual bad luck.. sign a contract with Air India then that person gets sacked !

What's the saying about fooled once, twice and so on?

OK, so AI not returning is bad luck. What about perpetual rumour re: DOH + where's AUH?

The 757 has been the workhorse of this airport; the current fleet of A321s is seen as one of the 757 replacements and we can’t afford to lose those

Now that is an interesting point, see also thread on the 753s. Realistically, what frame will be doing the EWR run in 10 years' time?

we never engaged with Ryanair and easyJet when we should have done

What is stopping them doing so now? After all, they already provide a valet parking service for them in addition to a few routes. As for easy, again that could be a Hamsterwheel thread. Why not work with BE to get them to go somewhere interesting? I know they've had better days, but don't they have less to risk with dipping toes in using a Q400?

We’d also ideally like a Chicago service: firstly, there is significant trade and Chicago has phenomenal connections; secondly, the two cities are twinned and are roughly the same size, with a metro area of around 2.73 million.

Err I'd check with the Wikiref before comparing the Windy city to Brum! CHI is 9.5m metro - far bigger than Brum, including West Mids. Not sure I'd want to be pairing up with cities of equal size anyway, nor that twinning is ever a reason to add a route. Maybe one or two annual junkets, but by same logic, Brum Al is 1.2m metro - but I think passengers would be more interested in ATL.

Skipness One Echo

13th Dec 2012, 02:57

5. Chicago is quite obviously PK's primary hope for a new destination once the extension opens
ORD has been served before with American who didn't need a runway extension to get a B767-223ER out non stop to O'Hare....

GayFriendly

13th Dec 2012, 08:00

Agreed skipness they did, however I know from former BA staff in Eurohub (as it was) that used to load/board that flight that more often than not (and especially in high summer) it used to leave minus some pax, pax bags or cargo (or a combination of all three) to be able to get off the ground.....at least that would now not be the case with the runway extended! Whether of course there is now a compelling commercial case for ORD flights ex BHX a decade on is another point altogether.....

What about perpetual rumour re: DOH + where's AUH?

Yes that rumour has been going years - as reported before APPARENTLY when QR get their full quota of 787's BHX will start, hmmm. Next year looks increasingly doubtful now routes upto June 2013 have been announced although didn't EK start DXB in Sept or Oct?

What is stopping them doing so now?

Regarding EZY and FR, that is something I have said for years, however it is too late IMO: FR and EZY have cut long term deals with the MAG Group, LPL and BRS that limits BHX's attractiveness for both. Why BHX has never been able to cut a deal with them before is a mystery to me. Former BHX management were VERY dismissive of loco when it first became significant in the UK hence BHX only joined the loco game once BRS, LPL etc had become experienced players.

Although BHX can rightly be quite proud of its 'full service' airline portfolio, it will now only ever be an outsider for 'loco'. EZY may perhaps add one or two W pattern routes in addition to BFS. The FR base (a total shock to me when it was announced) although important for BHX pax numbers, has completely stagnated and seems to hang on so they can get good winter parking deals? Good job ZB expanded when they did (as PK mentioned, reading between the lines) to provide some substance in destinations and based units for that particular gap in the market.

getonittt

13th Dec 2012, 10:51

but I think passengers would be more interested in ATL.

Jabird ,You slipped this in as an afterthought, alot of talk about routes and the like from an extended runway with ORD seemingly being the favourite , but a daily DL 764 to ATL would be my preference a route not available at the moment.
Why do you keep on about AUH ? Etihad are on a code share with the SN and there have never been strong rumours about an AUH unlike QR who hopefully will be flying from BHX this time next year.
As for the transatlantic 757 replacement , this is going to be a problem not only for UA but also but also other airlines where there is no like for like replacement , personally i think there will be twin aisle aircraft plying these routes in 10 years time.

hec7or

13th Dec 2012, 12:16

GF, I'm sure your friends who worked in the Eurohub back in the 90s are also aware that BA did not want competition from low cost airlines with British Airways Regional and made this position clear to BHX management.

FR-

13th Dec 2012, 12:33

So what is the chance of BHX being an easyJet base, or at least a few more routes. I would like to see two a/c from March, with routes to PMI, AGP, LIS, EDI, CDG, NAP, VCE.

FR-

chaps2011

13th Dec 2012, 12:57

I don`t think Easyjet are going to have many aircraft to play with next year
as some A319 are going and a few A320 arriving of which 2 are Manchester bound and probably at least 2 more to Gatwick for the Moscow route

Chaps

nigel osborne

13th Dec 2012, 13:43

getomitt re Delta 764s,

Not a chance ,they are fitted out with a lot of lie flat beds and are aimed at high yield business routes..hence why you get so many in LHR.

Jaibird

re AA 767s and problems off the current runway..

When they operated 767-200s with underated engines, when the air temp hit more than 21c with high humidity the air was too thin to lift them off the runway, and numerous times had to offload cargo.

However this was rectified when they introduced 767-300s which had more powerful engines.

BHX are looking at AA using 757s on the route although that would be a bit tight westbound with their 757 range limitations all the way to ORD.

Nigel

getonittt

13th Dec 2012, 15:09

O.K delta 763's then. The only problem i could see is it may affect the skyteam hubs at CDG/AMS.

BHX are looking at AA using 757s on the route

What was it that was said about backing the wrong airline....

chaps2011

13th Dec 2012, 15:22

AA have had quite a few problems with B757 to ORD ex MAN when winds
on the ocean have been stong and have had to take a tech stop

Chaps

Planeaddict

14th Dec 2012, 15:48

I would imagine that there are a few airlines who would want to operate long-haul services at BHX at this moment in time, but the landing fees are preventing them (I'm talking about Middle Eastern airlines, probably the likes of Airblue, AA etc). Maybe that's the reason Delta went to Edinburgh in 2005 instead.

As far as I recall, the AA 763 had to leave behind cargo on hot days.

We are unlikely to get hot days like that again so there should be no issue :p but on a serious note a 757 would be most suited.

Skipness One Echo

14th Dec 2012, 16:15

Isn't the runway comparable to Glasgow? Am sure the issues are the same but there's little fuss made.

justplanecrazy84

14th Dec 2012, 21:51

GLA runway is 216 mtrs longer then BHX current runway length

StoneyBridge Radar

14th Dec 2012, 22:10

AA have had quite a few problems with B757 to ORD ex MAN when winds
on the ocean have been strong and have had to take a tech stop

They have?

I'd been led to believe they'd "got away with it" pretty well up to now... :confused:

chaps2011

14th Dec 2012, 22:42

there was a week when strong winds were due a B767 was substituted and that was before the summer when it was a B767 anyway

Chaps

Invicta DC4

15th Dec 2012, 08:25

Glasgow is 66 metres longer: BHX 2599 metres, GLA 2665 metres.

ATNotts

15th Dec 2012, 10:12

Planeaddict:

Maybe that's the reason Delta went to Edinburgh in 2005 instea

I would imagine that Delta went to Edinburgh instead of BHX (if indeed there was a choice to be made) because Edinburgh is the capital city and seat of the Scottish government, and hence more important politically and businesswise than Birmingham and the West Midlands, and also, because when the Americans talk about visiting the UK for leisure they think of "London England" and "Edinburgh Scotland" - not Birmingham, even though it is close to Stratford. Americans measure everything from London and 100 miles is "just down the road" in their minds!

landing fees are preventing them

If any new carrier wants to open a new route they would get special rates from the airport to do so, at least during the route development period. Anyway, in comparison with the serious operational costs - particularly fuel, landing fees would be a fairly insignificant problem. The business case is all important.

OltonPete

15th Dec 2012, 12:24

FR- that would be a nice Christmas present. Loads on BFS and now Geneva are impressive lets hope they are making money on them.

Delta - Rumours circulated at the time that Delta did indeed quote the runway issue and that to make money they would need the maximum cargo yield and in summer a fully loaded 763 would be marginal depending on the temperatures. I suspect that the real reason was the worry of filling 36 business seats on a daily.

I wasn't aware it was a BHX or EDI and if it was then there was only going to be one winner as ATNotts suggest but as Delta found out it is not always as easy as that. Could it also have been possible that EDI at the time had the RDF or whatever it was called and BHX had just the usual sliding scale landing fee incentives?

Delta Atlanta has always been my favourite as a new westbound route but fully realise that filling 36 business seats a day is one big ask from BHX. United on the other hand have 16 business which seems far too low going by the seat maps.

Thomson

2013/4 winter is out with little change but a lot will be dependant on aircraft type. Also from the Thomson thread it seems a new handling contract has been signed but everyone seems tight-lipped in respect of the winner.

Ryanair - Summer 2013 updated, four based again by the look of it but with more away based flying as Barcelona, Reus and Girona retained although the latter at two per week.

Krakow stays two a week BHX based and Bergamo three a week but split between BHX & BGY based aircraft.

Alicante is up from seven to nine weekly.

Pete

Monty Gordo

15th Dec 2012, 12:56

OP, merely as an observation I notice that Bergamo has increased to three per week for the summer?

I travelled this route recently and was very, very surprised to see how many Italian people were on the flight. And before anyone says the plane was flying to Italy, can I add that in percentage terms the numbers, each way, were far higher than I would see on flights to say, Faro, which is a route I travel very frequently and also being mindful that there are a lot of Portuguese working in the UK.

Is there a high Italian population working in the Midlands or are they using this route as most of us do, as a tourism destination?

StoneyBridge Radar

15th Dec 2012, 16:26

there was a week when strong winds were due a B767 was substituted and that was before the summer when it was a B767 anyway

That's not really "quite a few problems" though, is it. ;)

Sounds more like a prudent aircraft substitution for one week's abnormal weather. As far as I know, I'm not aware of any splash and dash diverts whilst the 757 has plied the route, but happy to be corrected if someone has concrete data to back it up one way or the other. :ok:

Rgds

GayFriendly

15th Dec 2012, 16:31

Good to see some positive news on BGY loads I was a bit sceptical it would survive the usual FR fly it for a season then drop it policy.....I flew the route when WW operated it, its an ideal jump off point for Italian Lakes and Alps and destinations further afield via Milan by train

BRS-BUD has been released for summer is there then a glimmer of hope that BHX-BUD might come back, perhaps they have resolved that alleged fees issue in BUD?

OP - You are absolutely right DL did very seriously look into operating from BHX (I know someone who was heavily involved in the discussions between BHX and DL) and indeed it was runway length and its impact on cargo/pax loads that was the problem. This was quite a bit before they then chose to operate from EDI. I should imagine at EDI the RDF persuaded them to start ops and when these discounts dried up the route was pulled.

chaps2011

15th Dec 2012, 16:53

StoneyBridge
That was only one example as many flights had to make a tech stop en route
and I get the impression that should a B767 be available it will be back on the ORD flight which I might say was only lost when the A300 were withdrawn
snd left American very short of aircraft

Chaps

nigel osborne

15th Dec 2012, 16:57

Plane addict,

All new airlines are offered massive discounts when starting a route out of BHX which increases gradually on a sliding scale year on year.

Many other large UK airports do the same. So forget about landing fees being the issue, they can come in for virtually nothing for the first year or so.

Nigel

nigel osborne

15th Dec 2012, 16:59

Chaps2011

Think AA now use 763s again on the ORD-MAN so problem solved their.

Nigel

nigel osborne

15th Dec 2012, 17:04

Skipness one echo.

Glasgow is about 300 miles nearer the USA than us, and has over 200 metres more runway than BHX, so most east coast and some mid US are reachable from their current runway.

Nigel

OltonPete

15th Dec 2012, 19:29

GF - cheers for that I thought the Delta rejection was before the EDI

Monty Gordo - Interesting comments you make about the BGY, perhaps it is easy to fall into the trap and believe that nobody comes to BHX, just leave! It is good news if it is servicing both ends of the route.

I flew back on the third inbound LH Berlin and although a much more business orientated route, I too was impressed by the number of Germans on the flight and it wasn't just Brits going to view Berlin for a few days (although that is a good a reason as any). Just can't believe the CR9 will operate this route at weekends.

The Bergamo should be three a week now - Tue/Thu/Sat all BHX based, it might be less frequent over the holiday period but it is showing three a week second week in January.

Disappointed they have yet to replace the Budapest with increased frequencies on other routes at least from Feb half-term.

Brussels Airlines

Next summer now showing flybe operating the night-stop and first inbound.

Pete

Planeaddict

16th Dec 2012, 17:57

Surely a new pier is on the cards? After all, when the runway extension is finished in just over a year's time, they'd need it.

When PIA used to operate 747's into Birmingham back in the early 2000s, I recall reading somewhere that the flights used to always be full, and that in the old arrivals area, there used to be forms of chaos. Is there any sufficient demand for flights to the likes of Peshawar, Karachi or Lahore?

I think BHX has the facilities to be used as an international/transit hub for certain airlines. BHX has not yet seen a service to Bangladesh, I get the thought that there would be a similar amount of population/demand as there is for flights to India/Pakistan. Maybe Biman Bangladesh could work out, and seeing as they don't currently have a service to the USA (they previously did, routing it through Manchester then Brussels), they could have it to either JFK or ORD, on an A310 (which PIA certainly managed). This is back in the day where at least 4-5 carriers were doing transatlantic flights: All sizes | 110-1073_IMG | Flickr - Photo Sharing! (http://www.flickr.com/photos/reevery/6135615601/sizes/o/in/photostream/).

Ringwayman

16th Dec 2012, 18:02

Biman Bangladesh don't have the planes to expand. They severely misforecast their Hajj requirements and really curtailed their ops. MAN is suspended but the Bangladesh government wants them to reinstate all suspended routes.

They've currently got no permit to fly to the States and when it does come through, it is generally believed that the "normal" MAN route will be altered from Dhaka-Heathrow-MAN-Dhaka to a Dhaka-MAN-JFK-MAN-Dhaka

Skipness One Echo

16th Dec 2012, 18:42

From the AIS
Glasgow is 2665m
Birmingham is 2599m
Why the larger stated disparity? How is TORA calculated?

CabinCrewe

16th Dec 2012, 18:55

http://www.scaa.sc/files/Technical%20Guidance%20for%20calculating%20the%20declared%20 distances.pdf

Monty Gordo

16th Dec 2012, 20:51

I have been interested in this dascussion re runway lengths at BHX and Glasgow and its impact on fully laden planes, particularly in the hotter summer months.

But there is one question that has not been asked, namely the height above sea level of the respective airports. Does this have any bearing on the issue????

Invicta DC4

17th Dec 2012, 09:30

BHX is 328ft ASL, GLA 134ft ASL.
I'm sure somebody on here will be able to tell you how much 200ft affects aircraft performance, but I would have thought that it didn't make that much difference.

Burpbot

17th Dec 2012, 10:21

Not a lot! Temp and wind more critical! Hmmmm if only the runway pointed the right way!

nigel osborne

17th Dec 2012, 11:19

Monty Gordo RE BHX RUNWAY.

Runway 15 has a threshold elevation of 303 feet above sea level and runway 33 being 326 feet.

As Invicta says a few hundred feet makes little difference, perhaps 30 metres over a sea level airport.

However if you look at some airports.. Calgary for example, its 3,600 feet about sea level, so the airs thinner and more speed and lift needed to reach "V" for airliners.

Some airports also are very high and very hot, the heat further thinning the air requiring even longer take off distances.

Attach NATS latest BHX chart of BHX where you can see the heights..

http://www.ead.eurocontrol.int/eadbasic/pamslight-853665FC08FE34BCD66DF57DA6A82A16/7FE5QZZF3FXUS/EN/Charts/AD/NON_AIRAC/EG_AD_2_EGBB_2-1_en_2012-05-03.pdf

Nigel

insuindi

17th Dec 2012, 12:11

BE with longer term winter reductions on

BHX-STR - essentially now 6/7 for most of 2nd week January through to 1APR.
BHX-DUS - the DUS nightstopper has been dropped until 1APR.

And this may have been mentioned earlier - but Waterford with a pause during next quarter, and a reduced frequency 22FEB-08MAR.

Suzeman

17th Dec 2012, 13:21

Now you all know about TORAs and TODAs......

Check out the TODAs (para 2.13) at BHX and GLA

BHX
http://www.ead.eurocontrol.int/eadbasic/pamslight-853665FC08FE34BCD66DF57DA6A82A16/7FE5QZZF3FXUS/EN/AIP/AD/EG_AD_2_EGBB_en_2012-12-13.pdf

GLA
http://www.ead.eurocontrol.int/eadbasic/pamslight-853665FC08FE34BCD66DF57DA6A82A16/7FE5QZZF3FXUS/EN/AIP/AD/EG_AD_2_EGPF_en_2012-12-13.pdf

Over 300m longer available at GLA for the more predominate take off direction.

Skipness One Echo

17th Dec 2012, 14:26

If the concrete's already down, why can't aircraft just bactrack and use the max? What's the barrier to this? Interesting topic!

insuindi

17th Dec 2012, 15:27

CAA figures for Nov-12: BHX pax up 4.1%, rolling year up 3.5%.

The other big guns have fared well (better than BHX in many cases) too, with the exception of EDI.

OltonPete

17th Dec 2012, 16:37

Further to insuindi's post

Source: CAA Provisional stats

November passengers 568442 up 4.1% rolling year 8893406 up 3.5%

ATM's 6075 +1.9% rolling year 84149 +0.6%

ATM's are a surprise as I think flybe, easy and Monarch extra's did not cover the Baby movements although they were poor last November.

I wasn't too sure how November would pan out as it is usuallyone of the easiest months to predict but not this year. Baby operated two aircraft last November flying four sectors most days and a third on Thursday and Sunday.

Monarch have added one one aircraft and but less rotations than baby and flybe added Amsterdam but cut elsewhere such as Hanover. easy have almost covered the baby Belfast movements but Thomas Cook have cut heavily with one aircraft based compared to two last year and two still at East Mids.

So overall not too bad.

Pete

nigel osborne

17th Dec 2012, 18:12

Re TORA BHX runway.

Things will get quite interesting next winter at BHX when they join the then finished runway extension to the current runway.

A few months of night closures and probable reduced runway length in the day during this period.

Nigel

OltonPete

19th Dec 2012, 22:19

It wasn't shaping up that well but some IT additions - all subject to change

Freebird Thursday FHY642 18.30/21.30 Dalaman - dates found for high summer only at present but will I check.

The Saturday Freebird is all summer for Thomas Cook FHY610 18.30/21.15

Air Malta Friday summer IT season KM5437 22.45/23.35

Aegean again Saturday Larnaca 22.30/23.20 A34132

Travel Service still showing based one day only Tuesday Heraklion

Flybe go Greek.....yes you read it right Cosmos Preveza on a Sunday 05.40 (yuk) 13.20 BE3007/8. I trust the 195 :p

Pete

Jonnyf

20th Dec 2012, 10:05

New routes now Bookable

Bordeaux -3x Weekly [From 22nd May]
Split - 3x Weekly [From 22nd May]

Monty Gordo

20th Dec 2012, 10:39

First the good news, Monarch launch Bordeaux X3 weekly.
Now the bad news, I tried to book late May return 1 pax and the price quoted on line was £704.48 -- and that included their £15 flight saving.

Can't see that route lasting

GayFriendly

20th Dec 2012, 10:49

Monty I have just tried to do the same and have been quoted over £700 return, Split prices are the same surely this is an IT glitch and fares haven't been loaded properly? Or should the routes have indeed been loaded in the first place??

Nice to see BOD back prompted no doubt the BE's complete withdrawal from regional French routes ex BHX. This summer we will see in addition to CDG only BOD, NCE and MPL served, with former AF/BE/FR operated LYS, TLS, EGC, BES, BIQ, AVN, MRS, PGF and LRH routes all having now bitten the dust over the past couple of years.....

Split is an ideal route and makes a Croatia island hopping holiday very feasible indeed flying into SPU and out of DBV or vice versa - if the fares go down to more reasonable levels I will definately be booking these!

compton3bravo

20th Dec 2012, 16:39

Will be interesting to see if the new routes to Bordeaux and Split have any effect on the already established easyJet service to Bordeaux and Wizz to Split from Luton especially those living in the South Midlands area.

EI-A330-300

20th Dec 2012, 16:46

Aer Lingus to increase Dublin from 3 to 6 daily from 1 June. Half mainline and regional.

DUB-BHX
07.10
09.00*
13.15
17.00*
18.15**
20.30* **

BHX-DUB
07.15* ***
08.50
10.45*
14.50
18.45*
19.50 **

* Aer Lingus Regional
** except Sat
*** except Sun

Will put huge pressre on FR if past EI expanction is to be repeated. BRS, EDI, GLA all is left now is MAN.

OltonPete

20th Dec 2012, 18:58

Monarch

These two destinations appear to be gap fillers, with Bordeaux mainly covering the Milan times (Mo/Wed/Sa) and one of the Split flights (Friday morning).

So still nine based for summer from the May and no movement on the dreadful April schedule.

I assume that they are possibly waiting for final confirmation of aircraft deliveries - last April there were 5 x BMI Baby a week and 7 x Monarch to Malaga and in April 2013 just 4 Monarch. Alicante is similar with Palma, Mahon and Dalaman not operating at all.

Talking of Mahon the second Friday flight has been added back leaving ten aircraft required unless they have switched one of the other flights to an away based aircraft. Munich stands out as not fitting the schedule and I suspect the Friday service will be re-timed or chopped.

Aer Lingus Regional

Overnighting aircraft - I know it is early days but will BHX become a base or just crews to local hotels?

Shame they couldn't use the AT72 aircraft to squeeze in a third Cork on some days and second Knock on others but it seems to be away in Dublin from late Morning to mid afternoon.

Is this the first step to all ATR service on the Dublin though?

Pete

chaps2011

20th Dec 2012, 19:02

It may be something for the regional aircraft to do as the likes of Waterford go
just a thought, I have heard rumours MAN is going to 6 daily as well but
we shall see

Chaps

OltonPete

20th Dec 2012, 21:30

Monarch winter 2013/4 seems to heading for five based based on the November/December timetable

ALC - four a week no change (Friday moves to Thursday)
LEI - Nil (no change)
BCN - Nil (no change)
BOD - nil
FAO - three - (up one)
FUE - one (no change)
GIB - three (up three)
LPA - one (no change)
GNB - Two (from Dec and similar)
ACE - Three (up one)
LCA - Two (no change)
FNC - Two (no change)
PMI - Nil (no change)
AGP - Four (no change)
MUC - nil (down 3/4)
NCE - Nil (no change)
PFO - Nil (no change)
FCO - Two (down 1/2)
SSH - Three (up one)
TFS - Seven (up one)
VCE - Nil (down 3)

chaps2011

MAN-DUB carries more pax than BHX-MAN month in month out with the odd exception and it would be very surprising if a similar increase doesn't happen.

Pete

Planeaddict

21st Dec 2012, 14:38

Are Biman permitted to fly to YYZ?

Dhaka-Birmingham-Toronto could work well if there was demand, and there is a large Asian minority here in the West Midlands.

Hellenic Imperial could try BHX again but with a smaller aircraft. As far as I am concerned there were only 51 passengers on the first flight on 25th July 2009.

Anyone know what the yields and pax figures are like for PIA? It'd be interesting as it'd give us more of an idea as to any extra flights are viable. They obviously won't be doing the transit flights as per ten years ago but they could operate flights to the likes of Karachi & Lahore on the days they don't operate into BHX.

ATNotts

21st Dec 2012, 14:56

Planeaddict:

Whether or not Biman have traffic rights (I assume that's what you mean) unless the demographic has changed in the Midlands, the main communities from the Indian subcontinent resident here are from India (chiefly Punjabi) and from Pakistan. Bangladeshi communities are more resident in the Northwest, and around London. That's why PK fly from BHX, and why Turkmenistan operates so frequently from BHX to Askhabad, where they connect to Amritsar.

I don't know about you, but I wouldn't fly with Biman from BHX to YYZ, even if they were the only operator. I'd prefer Transat, Air Canada or BA!

It's fine and dandy wishing for exotic routes and carriers, but a prerequisite is having market to serve!

nigel osborne

21st Dec 2012, 17:40

ATNOTTS.

Hi Andrew,

Re BIMAN Im afraid you are way out with your figures re number of Bengalis and others from the Indian Sub Continent in Birmingham and Manchester; :=

From the latest England and Wales population census 2011, just published this month.in order;Bengalis first;

1.London 168,000
2. Birmingham 25,500
3.Bradford 12,000
4. Oldham 10,300
5. Luton 8,000

Manchester just mentioned as having clusters.

Pakistani origin in England latest figures I can find; Top 3.

1.London 224,000
2.Birmingham 140,000
3.Bradford 80,000.

Coventry Manchester and Leeds then mentioned as having lower but still sizeable populations.

From the whole Indian subcontinent West Midlands had 3.5% from this area, North West 1.5% Yorkshire and Humberside 1.5%

So Birmingham and West Midlands has much higher numbers than Manchester and NW and still in the lead just if you add Yorkshire etc.

After all that doubt doesn't mean we will get more flights !:{

Nigel

Planeaddict

21st Dec 2012, 20:53

I presume there is sort of a market for YYZ as it seems Air India didn't have any issues making the BHX-YYZ leg work. Air Transat operate an A330 on a few occasions so those flights must be getting filled (though I don't see why they wouldn't do it year round, maybe Air Canada could provide that).

If an indian carrier was to return, which one would you hope it'd be? I'm not holding my breath for Air India, especially considering what has happened recently with them having to go back to square one. Jet Airways is a possiblity, and possibly Kingfisher.

Emirates brought in a second daily flight around 2 years after they brought one in at Manchester. They brought in a third daily flight at Manchester just last May, so if they follow the same pattern, we could be looking at it soon. If that was the case, I think they'd start with the A330. If we are looking at the current yields and pax numbers (and whatever else is needed to be looked at), does it warrant another flight?

I hope that when they announce any new routes for the summer timetable, we may be hearing about the Qatar service, as well as any service to ORD.

crewmeal

21st Dec 2012, 21:26

Planeaddict dream on! Try looking at the wider picture. If there were the loads and yields then airlines would operate from Brum. Just because EK operate a 3rd daily service out of MAN doesn't mean Brum will follow. The figures barely support a 2nd service at the moment, so it's unlikely that they will start a 3rd.

YYZ seems to work during the summer. There is insufficient traffic to operate a schedule during the winter when you have LHR 100 miles south and MAN 90 miles north.

Regarding Asian carriers we're lucky to support a 3/4 x weekly service to ISB. If there is evidence of growth in the Pakistani market then I'm sure PK or other carriers will take up the slack. Regarding India there are many comments in this thread without me adding to it.

Other North American carriers I'm sure will operate when there is evidence of sufficient numbers to operate to Brum. Airlines are always looking for growth regardless of route. But they have to make money and in this economic climate few will take the gamble.

Regarding QR wait until the wheels touch the runway. (I don't mean a diversion.)

OltonPete

21st Dec 2012, 21:39

As usual the monthly figures from the CAA, the average pax and load factor per my estimates from a BHX blog, libhomeradar and planespotters.net. Schedule services only 2011 in brackets.

Any help from across the Irish Sea re Knock & Waterford would be appreciated, as I am sure some Knock flights might not have operated and I couldn't find any Waterford flights on a Wednesday - did they operate or was it three a week?

DUBLIN 46,236 (45160)---------135 pax----75% on less rotations

DUBAI 38,568 (39280)-----------324 pax---78% - EK38 on 30th probably in Dec figures as tech
AMSTERDAM 37,963 (38143)----90 pax---80% impressive considering Q400's rather than 733's
PARIS (CDG) 29,550 (29015) ----90 pax---75%
TENERIFE 13463 (16027)-------192 pax----93% - less flight not - enough seats
FRANKFURT 21,494 (19932)-----90 pax-----65%
ALICANTE 12619 (17204) --------180 pax-----89% (BMI Baby capacity not replaced & less ZB)
DUSSELDORF 15,967 (15013)-----47 pax-----55%
ARRECIFE 7203 (6980)-----------180 pax-----89% (less capacity more pax)
MUNICH 14,923 (12459)----------73 pax------55% (not sure if this route needs 2 airlines)
MALAGA 11653 (11516)-----------177 pax------87% (more pax way less capacity)
BRUSSELS 9,228 (10393)---------53 pax-------47%
ZURICH 8,309 (11060)------------69 pax-------70% (33.333% cut in rotations)
FUERTEVENTURA 3837 (3047) 174 pax-----87%
FARO 7171 (7530) -----------------179 pax------89%
COPENHAGEN 7,180 (7663)------76 pax------76%
ISLAMABAD 6,879 (7538)--------265 pax-----73%
NEW YORK (EWR) 6,841 (6287)-143 pax----84%
CORK 6,404 (6494)------------------53 pax----74%
ISTANBUL 6,268 (4487)----------105 pax----68%
HANOVER 3582 (4215)------------ 60 pax-----71% (frequency reduction but a few 195's)
ASHKHABAD 5,251 (5021)-------154 pax-----81%
LAS PALMAS 3182 (4984)--------177 pax-----89%
BERLIN (TEGEL) 5,084 (nil)------88 pax-----64%
ROME (FCO) 4,180 (nil)-----------130 pax-----75%
BARCELONA 4,088 (nil)----------146 pax-----77%
BYDGOSZCZ 4,017 (4113)-------155 pax-----82%
STOCKHOLM (ARN) 3,896 (nil)-75 pax------55% approx
LARNACA 2959 (3644)----------185 pax------86%
VENICE 3,547 (nil)---------------118 pax------60% - quite a few A321's - poor planning (68% A320)
PALMA 3098 (nil)----------------141 pax-------75%
FUNCHAL 2018 (nil)-------------112 pax-------64%
RZESZOW 3,169 (2501)---------144 pax------.76% (possibly 151 pax 80% if one flight diverted)
MALTA 3,096 (2615)------------172 pax-------92%
SHANNON 3,005 (2952)---------50 pax-------70%
BRATISLAVA 2,964 (4007)----165 pax-------87% (reduced 3 to 2 a week)
HAMBURG 2,896 (1608)---------60 pax-------70%
BUDAPEST 2,593 (nil)----------162 pax -------86% (Must be real cheap fares?)
MILAN (MXP) 2,554 (1713)-----46 pax-------50%
KATOWICE 2,527 (2363)-------158 pax-------84%
STUTTGART 2,511 (3204)------31 pax-------39%
KRAKOW 2,272 (nil)-------------162 pax-------86%
KNOCK 2,224 (3451)-------------37 pax--------51% (733 to ATR72)
BERGAMO 2,002 (nil) -----------91 pax--------48% (seems very low)
WATERFORD 1,260 (658)------ 52 pax--------67% (Arann stopped in Nov 11 -)
MURCIA 1,062 (nil) -------------133 pax-------70% (ended 6/11)
GIRONA 722 (2518)--------------120 pax-------64& (ended 5/11 and replaced with BCN)
GDANSK 629 (2607)-------------157 pax-------83% (ended 6/11)
REUS 432 (nil)---------------------108 pax........57%
TRIESTE 563 (nil)----------------140 pax-------75% (ended 4/11)
KAUNAS 354 (2438)-------------177 pax-------94% (ended 4/11)
Prague Nil
Lyon Nil
Gothenburg nil

Pete

Fairdealfrank

21st Dec 2012, 23:23

Quote: "I presume there is sort of a market for YYZ as it seems Air India didn't have any issues making the BHX-YYZ leg work. Air Transat operate an A330 on a few occasions so those flights must be getting filled (though I don't see why they wouldn't do it year round, maybe Air Canada could provide that)."

AI are not on the route now, so there must have been some issues!

Quote: "If an indian carrier was to return, which one would you hope it'd be? I'm not holding my breath for Air India, especially considering what has happened recently with them having to go back to square one. Jet Airways is a possiblity, and possibly Kingfisher."

AFAIK, IT have suspended all overseas flights and now just doing domestic. They appear to be in deep trouble. AI are also in trouble and won't be returning anytime soon. As for 9W, think it's very doubtful they'll be on the route.

mart901

21st Dec 2012, 23:39

I'm scratching my head with the EIR Dub flights. They seem to have been priced at somewhat excessive rates, over and above the original EI flights. It looks rather like they have been earmarked for something else and will mysteriously go off sale and BHD will appear is my guess?? And possibly also see NOC operated off the same a/c. BHX certainly is an important base for EI/EIR with 4 routes, a based a/c would be a boon. EI have, many moons ago based a 146 overnight at BHX to facilitate a very early departure.

Jamie2k9

22nd Dec 2012, 00:00

All airlines have above normal prices for extra flights when they are added. They will drop.

Aer Lingus update flight prices largely on Friday and Mondays only and they have dropped since they went on sale on Thursday.

Remenber that Aer Lingus planned 3 daily A320 and 1 daily ATR72 from last June but moved to NOC when WW closed the route.

Skipness One Echo

22nd Dec 2012, 03:21

though I don't see why they wouldn't do it year round, maybe Air Canada could provide that
It's quite intensely seasonal, Canadians fly *South* in the winter, not East. When Air Canada were on BHX-YYZ before I am not even sure if it was year round.
so if they follow the same pattern, we could be looking at it soon.
Emirates had to introduce a third service as QR and EY were breathing down their throats and they were keen to maintain market share. The growth at MAN may in some way be at the expense of BHX where the same growth has not been seen.

** I just saw someone quoted my "breathing down their throat" blonde moment so I can't edit it. I really did mean necks....

mart901

22nd Dec 2012, 09:02

mart901

22nd Dec 2012, 09:47

Also noticed BRS-DUB has extra flights, randomly with a rotation that doesn't correlate to anything on their schedule, also priced way above other flights.

StoneyBridge Radar

22nd Dec 2012, 10:33

Emirates had to introduce a third service as QR and EY were breathing down their throats and they were keen to maintain market share. The growth at MAN may in some way be at the expense of BHX where the same growth has not been seen.

The evening MAN rotation being upgraded to A388 next September will also be of no help to BHX's loads.

I wonder what effect, if any, it will have on QR coming to Brum...

Rgds

Navpi

22nd Dec 2012, 11:46

Must confess I just cant see BHX competing for all the bravado coming from management. Airlines are polarising on MAN and LHR.

Manchester is an hour to North and Luton /Heathrow an hour to South.

If you lived in say Wolverhampton or Stafford and had a flight check in at sat 9am would you really sit on the M6 for an hour +...much easier to head North !

Rumours suggest EK they are putting another A380 in on the evening flight that will suck even more traffic away.......as ETIHAD and QTR respond !

I am more inclined to think EK would put the second BHX into MAN. Two flights with lowish yields then switch to one flight that becomes a high earner !

Planeaddict

22nd Dec 2012, 11:55

OK, maybe an Indian carrier isn't going to operate at BHX any time soon.

But one thing that must be on the cards is an indoor viewing area surely?

Just pointing out, when PIA first started at BHX with 747's, when they were operating flights to Karachi/Lahore, the flights usually came back full. Of course, PIA don't operate 747's into the UK anymore. Didn't they fly to Peshawar for a while in 2004? How did that work out?

What has Continental done well to keep hold of it's BHX-EWR service for 15 years?

Jamie2k9

22nd Dec 2012, 13:16

Yes but remember Jamie EIR were expected to launch NOC long before they did. Placing the ATR on the DUB surprised a lot of people, then suddenly it was switched to NOC, like a planned move. BHD has been rumoured for quite some time, just watch this space is all I will say!

I suspect that NOC would of preferred Flybe to launch BHX before EIR and when BE wouldn't they came to EIR.

If you look at the schedule you will see why the extra flight times were selected.

Also noticed BRS-DUB has extra flights, randomly with a rotation that doesn't correlate to anything on their schedule, also priced way above other flights.

BRS-DUB was 3 daily last summer but released as 2 this summer and the 4 afternoon flights were added on Thursday (busiest days on the route). Until June the afternoon flights offer connections to afternoon T/A flights before a time change in July.

If we use you logic about the prices then the two recent MON routes launched won't operate and will be moved as the prices are way above the norm.

NJTCF

22nd Dec 2012, 13:22

Here is an interesting Airline. And i have heard it mentioned twice in the last couple of weeks. Air Algerie:ok:

Planeaddict

22nd Dec 2012, 13:31

Here is an interesting Airline. And i have heard it mentioned twice in the last couple of weeks. Air Algerie

Are you suggesting they could serve BHX?

I've had a look at their list of destinations, it's worth pointing out that they no longer serve MAN and LGW, and only serve LHR with 737s/A330s/767s.

Would it benefit BHX? No onward connections to India however, but there are connections to the likes of Beijing. Also worth noting that the airline doesn't fly to the USA - there comes in the idea of transiting through BHX and people from the Midlands could use the service aswell.

In the unlikely chance that they would go ahead with BHX if they were considering it, they could actually use the A330 depending on how confident they are with it's success. Air India could have easily used an A310 from Delhi but chose to use the 777 as they were sure there was demand.

rutankrd

22nd Dec 2012, 14:06

Air Algérie is a carrier that doesn't do connections and Algeria is not very tourist friendly either.

The main source of revenue is related to oil and gas based in the Desert town of Hassi Messaoud -
From Gatwick this had a direct flight by Air Algérie for a time however the oil contracts are now covered by regular charters.

The very brief Manchester service some winters ago [2002-2003] accounted for something like 4 to 6 rotations maximum and non carried more the a few tens of passengers plus a ton or so of cargo.
The flight was expected to win some oil contracts however these never materialised and flight folded. A spate of terrorist incidents in Algeria around that time didn't help ether.

Given the UK petrochemical industries are clustered just west of Manchester I can't for the life of me understand why they would look at Birmingham !

Planeaddict

22nd Dec 2012, 15:04

A bit of debate going on on YouTube about BHX being able to handle the A380. Someone has mentioned that the A388 has very good take off performance and could take off with a full load from BHX safely as it would not require full tanks of fuel to reach DXB, and that it performs very well on runways significantly shorter than BHX's.

Reading some old topics on Airliners.net, Turkmenistan were to start YYZ from BHX but this didn't go ahead. Uzbekistan operated a service to JFK for a period of time; for a while in 2001 and then was resumed in 2003, then terminated altogether.

Would Delta work at all at BHX? Of course I think it'd be down to the 'start-up package' and the aircraft used - I think if they flew from JFK, more people would use it, more so than Edinburgh.