UK Police helicopter budget cuts

[Gasp Generator]

http://dingo.care2.com/cards/flash/5409/galaxy.swf (http://dingo.care2.com/cards/flash/5409/galaxy.swf)

[PANews]

Day 2 of Shephard's Helipower, to be held at 5 Farnborough, October 20 is to include a near rerun of the Duxford event as part of its own Blue Light event.

The main change is that CC Marshall is being replaced by Supt. Richard Watson.

11.40 THE FUTURE OF POLICE AVIATION IN THE UK
Superintendent Richard Watson, Project Lead, National Police Air Service, UK
12.00 HELICOPTER EMERGENCY RESPONSE: COST EFFECTIVE OPTIONS FOR THE FUTURE
Richard Folkes OBE, UK Government Business Unit, AgustaWestland, UK
12.20 FRENCH GENDARMERIE'S AIR SUPPORT COMMAND : A GLOBAL APPROACH FOR POLICE AIR
SUPPORT
Colonel Patrice Bar, Deputy Commanding Officer, French Gendarmerie Air Service, France

[SilsoeSid]

The same Richard Folkes that went to Max Moseley in order to improve Apache refuelling times ?

Should future Police aircraft come from Augusta Westland....;) I still have some fancy dress kit left over from my days in Germany !

[SilsoeSid]

BBC News - AgustaWestland helicopters to shed up to 375 jobs (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-somerset-15214945)

However, to keep management busy....;

The firm is planning to build civil helicopters which it hopes will be used by the police, air ambulance, Coastguard and private individuals.

It recently launched the AW169 civilian helicopter which is expected to enter service in 2015.


Keep an eye out for the funny handshakes during lunch at Helitech :suspect:

The Press Association: Helicopter firm to cut 375 jobs (http://www.google.com/hostednews/ukpress/article/ALeqM5iUftVNRh9fN1YHylTc1WWL4ZI8WQ?docId=N081598131798375901 6A)
Business Secretary Vince Cable said: "The news of job losses at AgustaWestland will be upsetting for the individuals involved and the wider community in Yeovil. In July I announced £32 million of Government investment in AgustaWestland Yeovil to help introduce the civil AW169 aircraft and we hope that this will allow them to expand in the future."

Coming to an NPAS/Govt ASU unit near you in due course.....
http://www.verticalmag.com/control/news/articlefiles/14231-169_police_web.jpg
££££££££££££££££££££££

[Digital flight deck]

Did all the police authorities sign up to NPAS on 30 September?

[Coconutty]

Did ANY police authorities sign up to NPAS on 30 September?

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[SilsoeSid]

Perhaps after the South Yorkshire meeting, others have realised that it's a 'Catch 22' situation.

You don't know how much it will cost to be in it, until they know how many are going to be in it;
You're only going to be in it, if you know how much it is going to cost to be in it.

http://bluenred.files.wordpress.com/2010/06/catch22d2.jpg

[Lokon]

....Is that Capt Reeves second from the right?
The guy with his back to us must be the Ex Army pilot, can't be Navy as he hasn't got hairy a@#e!

[SilsoeSid]

To remind us of the importance of the date in Coconutty's post;

http://www.nypa.gov.uk/CHttpHandler.ashx?id=8119&p=0

10.3 To deliver the operational improvements and realise the savings, a decision from Police Authorities in support of the proposal is sought by 30th September 2011.

Will we know any more by Tuesday?

[SilsoeSid]

In the meantime;

Campaign to save police helicopter - News - The Comet (http://www.thecomet.net/news/campaign_to_save_police_helicopter_1_1088525)

A CAMPAIGN to stop plans to axe the Herts and Beds police helicopter has been started on social networking site Facebook.

[PANews]

At the Shephard Heli-Power Conference held at FIVE, Farnborough, Hampshire on the morning of Thursday 20th. There was a repeat performance of the Helitech Presentation from NPAS and others.

This time the NPAS presentation was given by Supt. Richard Watson rather than CC Alex Marshall. Basically the same thrust, different in the detail.

Far from confirming that Police Authorities have toed the line it seems that about two-thirds have met the deadline [I have not got my 'bit of paper' but I recall 27 + one no from SYP].

The other thread being presented is a proposal that 'future growth' in availability seems to hang on a plan to make greater use of all the airborne resources in the UK. Because there are dedicated airframes they sit on the ground until their scenario appears over the horizon - but that is uneconomic and much of why fire never got their dedicated airframes.

A bit sketchy as far as plans go but one scenario suggests that if its a simple search task perhaps looking for an old lady 'any' aircraft will do. So [depending on who signs up for it] they might use police, fire, ambulance, SAR, pipeline patrol, Skywatch etc etc. The plan broadens to bring in a possibility of the fire getting their aircraft capability by default ..... anything with internal or hook capacity would be despatched to undertake their task.

They are now looking for a Government Department to hang this on.... DFT looks best bet and to a control centre to coordinate it through....

Lots of complications of course but the promoters are real flyers so its not entirely a desk driven idea. Having kicked the joint police air ambulance concept into touch it seems that financial pressures and some new outside the box thinking are now promoting a one size fits all..... the charities will love that!

[Coconutty]

.... one scenario suggests that if its a simple search task perhaps looking for an old lady 'any' aircraft will do. ... and that's OK then is it ?

We all know that a lot of Missing Person searches end up with the air crew not finding the person -
usually because they are not there to be found, though still contributing massively by clearing large areas that would be difficult to search on the ground.

Some of them DO get found by the Air Crew, and lives are saved !

If "they" are now going to adopt a blase attitude like this, and mandate that "any old aircraft" will do,
( and presumably any old, less skilled crew will also do ) to conduct an "old lady" search,
then I fear there will be a lot more "old ladies" that DON'T get found :eek:

IMHO such (any ?) tasks should never be considered "simple" :ugh:
There's a LOT more to searching for Missing people than just overflying an area, and looking out of the window :rolleyes:

If an "anything will do" attitude is being talked about as though it were acceptable now - even before NPAS has started,
then it should come as no surprise when results are not achieved :oh:

Hopefully PAN has got it wrong , but if there's going to be an "any aircraft (and crew) will do" attitude, then it's :mad:

I dont think I'll put my usual smiley face to this post :*

Coconutty

[Digital flight deck]

An interesting development in the thinking of NPAS. Taking the "Old Lady(/Gentleman)" as a case study to start with, do the searchers not invariably use a mix of thermal and visual searching techniques? If this is taken as read then really the ambulance, pipeline patrol, Skywatch etc etc (all the big society options [free]) are a no go, they simply don't have the kit or skills required. This would leave the police and SAR. I wonder if the cost of a Sea King is equivalent to thrt of the EC135 or MD902. And of course when SAR goes civilised what the cost then? All sees to be a bit "head in sand" to me. NPAS seems to be lurching from one idea to the next with no real thought into the repercussions of the "current" good idea before launching into the next. IMHO. :confused:

[morris1]

The fall down of any "big society" approach... or multi agency approach for that matter.. is the fact that the biggest and most useful resource of any a/c, are the people inside it..!

Police ASUs deploy to missing people EVERY DAY..!

Some are there to be found, some arent. Some jobs are pretty high octane and urgent, some are very much "ticky box" jobs.

The skills of the crews come in, when weeding out the chaff from everything else. Crews from SAR, Fire, Air Ambo,and bless 'em any skywatch type people, wont be used to dealing with the ropey data from mobile phones, sorting through rumour and speculation (let alone downright lies) and of course having the local knowledge about the area they work in. You cant expect people who dont do missing person searches, EVERY DAY, the way the ASUs do, to be anything like as skilled as the full-time crews.!

However.. as far as NPAS are concerned less=more..
forgot to factor that one in :}

[PANews]

To be fair this is not exactly an NPAS change of direction.

This is being proposed and [at least for the moment] NPAS are hanging their hat on it and suggesting that they had 'similar' thoughts.

The proposal - and it is a moveable feast - is being spoken by Richard Folkes the head of Government and Corporate Affairs at AgustaWestland but he is picking up a ground swell of opinion to at least consider the idea - or ideas because moveable feast means just that, the parameters can change with opinion. Even Coconutty opinions.

At the core of this is the fact that well over 95% of the SAR mission can be undertaken with less than a Sea King and does not involved winches etc. That same strain of thinking is saying why send a Sea King if an EC135/MD902 will do? Why send a flir equipped super equipped heli if its nice and sunny and the need for a specialist crew is not blatantly obvious? And do remember that if you and your aircraft are down for a Tech reason the local plod has no choice to send a man on a bike with a torch, like what I did when I was a lad. Even Skywatch is an improvement on that if only because they can be there and back in time for tea.

There must have been someone else on Pprune at the free Helitech Conference that didn't exit the room as soon as Alex Marshall finished speaking? What do they remember of the later presentation by Richard Folkes that Alex Marshall specifically stated 'count me in!' to?

[SilsoeSid]

I guess the problem of having a couple of larger aircraft available to carry firearms/specialist teams etc around the country is now solved with Warwickshire & Northamptonshire Air Ambulance ordering a couple of 169's. Ideally located in the middle of the country, what an asset to be able to call on.
:E:E:E

http://www.aviationnews.eu/2011/07/21/warwickshire-northamptonshire-air-ambulance-signs-contract-for-two-aw169-helicopters-–-the-first-uk-sale/

The AW169 is ideal for air ambulance and police missions....

...meets all the latest safety standards and has multi-role capabilities.

If only they had waited, NPAS might have bought the airframes for them ;)
(where's that LMFAO smilie?)

[Coconutty]

There must have been someone else on Pprune at the free Helitech Conference that didn't exit the room as soon as Alex Marshall finished speaking? What do they remember of the later presentation by Richard Folkes that Alex Marshall specifically stated 'count me in!' to?

Sorry - wasn't there this year , so will have to guess - Was it an invite to the Free Lunch ? :rolleyes:

No ? - If there's something to be said - why not just say it ?

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[PANews]

Coconutty - I already said it.

If there's something to be said - why not just say it ?

I reported on a public, free access, forum that was the first instance where NPAS told all they wanted to say. My comment was a reaction to your disbelief 'hopefully PAN has got it wrong....'

It looks as if [and not for the first time by far] UK police aviation has been given two perfect opportunities to update itself on a matter that has supposedly been 'important' to it and those that undertake the missions. On present evidence a large group of individuals has simply turned its back on the opportunity and continued whinging.

I know there were a number of less short sighted professional police aviation persons there in the audience [throughout] and they represented three identifiable police aviation units. Clearly they do not spend their time here on Rotorheads they go get that 'important' first hand information for themselves.

It was something far more important than a free lunch.

[Coconutty]

PAN - Sorry if I misinterpreted your final paragraph,
which read ( to me ) as though "something else" had been discussed / proposed,
after a lot of the audience had left.

I'm sure it will be a lot clearer in your November edition :ok:

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[B.U.D.G.I.E]

Hit the press yesterday that the met have planes they use to listen to mobile phone calls. Are they part of NPAS ?????

[PANews]

Where was the story?

[Ye Olde Pilot]

Here....
Met Police spends millions of pounds on secret aircraft - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/8857517/Met-Police-spends-millions-of-pounds-on-secret-aircraft.html)

Met Police spends millions of pounds on secret aircraft
The Metropolitan Police has secret spy planes capable of eavesdropping on mobile phone calls from the sky.
By Jason Lewis, Investigations Editor, and Andy Blackmore 9:00PM BST 29 Oct

The existence of the fleet of planes - each costing at least £3 million to purchase and hundreds of thousands more to operate - has never been publicly disclosed.
The police have being using the planes since at least 1997.
The disclosure of the spending, which is not detailed in official accounts, comes as the police face 20 per cent cuts in their budget, creating fears that hundreds of support staff will lose their jobs and the number of officers reduced.
Despite the cuts the Met's secret fixed wing aircraft fleet is still flying regular sorties over London from a base at Farnborough airfield, in Hampshire.
The planes have apparently been fitted with secret surveillance equipment capable of intercepting mobile phone calls or eavesdropping on conversations.

They are understood to be similar to surveillance planes available to MI5 which have been used in anti-terrorism operations and were used to help West Midlands Police track suspects connected to a plot to kidnap and behead a British Muslim soldier.
One of the planes is a Cessna F04, which can carry up to 14 passengers or be fitted with specially integrated patrol mission packs. We have been asked not to disclose full details of the aircraft on security grounds.
The twin engine craft are operated separately from the Met's Air Support Unit which has three helicopters and flies hundreds of hours a month in support of police operations around the capital at a cost of £3 million a year.
Last week a Metropolitan Police spokesman refused to discuss its use of the fixed wing aircraft but insisted it has gone through a "full" procurement process.
However members of the Metropolitan Police Authority, which scrutinises the force's spending said they had never been told of the existence of the aircraft.
According to Civil Aviation Authority records, the aircraft is registered to a firm called Nor Leasing.
There is no trace of the firm on any other official record and its business address registered with the CAA is actually a branch of Mail Boxes Etc, which offers a virtual office services and mail forwarding, in Surbiton, south-west London.
Another Cessna was also previously registered to Nor Leasing at the same address and at another service address in Kensington, west London.
In 1997 one of the original individuals listed as "trading as" Nor Leasing was John Carnt who at the time was a senior Metropolitan Police detective.
Superintendent Carnt was the then head of the Serious and Economic Crime Group, which was set up to combat major fraud, money laundering and art and antiques thefts.
The pattern of hidden spending is believed to have been established by Tony Williams, a former assistant finance director at Scotland Yard, who established a secret web of companies for use in specialist undercover operations.
But Mr Williams also used the same techniques to steal millions of pounds from the force to set himself up as a bogus Scottish "laird". Williams was accused of stealing more than £4 million from Scotland Yard. He was jailed for seven years in 1995.
Metropolitan Police Authority member James Cleverly last night said he was totally unaware that the Met had any fixed wing aircraft.
Mr Cleverly, who also sits on the authority's counter terrorism and protective services committee, which examines the force's covert work, said: "This is not something that I have been made aware of or have had the opportunity to scrutinise.
"In the light of the tight financial situation we are facing and the cuts being imposed on the police service it is imperative that we examine any assets that could be construed as a 'luxury'.
"I would expect full disclosure of details of this to the MPA to enable us to examine whether it represents good value for money for the police service."

[XV666]

Where was the story?

In Sunday's Grauniad (http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/oct/30/metropolitan-police-mobile-phone-surveillance): it's been mentioned occasionally on PPRuNe before, but usually beadwindow has been called ;)

Britain's largest police force is operating covert surveillance technology that can masquerade as a mobile phone network, transmitting a signal that allows authorities to shut off phones remotely, intercept communications and gather data about thousands of users in a targeted area.

The surveillance system has been procured by the Metropolitan police from Leeds-based company Datong plc, which counts the US Secret Service, the Ministry of Defence and regimes in the Middle East among its customers. Strictly classified under government protocol as "Listed X", it can emit a signal over an area of up to an estimated 10 sq km, forcing hundreds of mobile phones per minute to release their unique IMSI and IMEI identity codes, which can be used to track a person's movements in real time.

Long article, too much to quote here :ok:

[PANews]

Well thats blown the gaff then hasn't it! Still they did well to hide it for as long as they did.:eek:

Are there no secrets left in the world?

[Senior Pilot]

Metropolitan Police Authority member James Cleverly last night said he was totally unaware that the Met had any fixed wing aircraft.

He must be the only person who didn't know :p

[Ye Olde Pilot]

It only takes a little googling to identify the aircraft and the spotter sites have them counted out and counted back in again.:ok:

[misterbonkers]

Perhaps James Cleverly should consider changing his surname or add a middle name of 'notso'?
:)

[Helinut]

There is a big difference between political posturing and true emotions.

[Coconutty]

Are they part of NPAS ?????The pattern of hidden spending...... Obviously no links with NPAS then, where it seems the pattern of stuff being hidden,
is the details of how proposed savings will be achieved, and precisely what the improvements in efficiency will be ! :ugh:

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[Blue Thunder]

I wonder who's paying for all the other planes around the country then :E

[Helinut]

I am slightly out of the loop but it can't be long before the NPAS regime will start, for better or worse.

Can anyone advise whether there is a pilot or engineer actually within the NPAS management exercising some management influence? I suspect with the departure of the ex-Home Office Police aviation adviser some time ago, there is not.

This begins to shape up like so many AOC start-ups that I have seen (and one or two that I have been involved in). Someone falls in love with aviation and thinks that because they have run a brewery/supermarket chain/doctor's surgery/police "business" unit (delete as necessary) that they can setup a helicopter (P)AOC without any real aviation management input. It ALWAYS ends in disaster.

I accept this may be a rhetorical question, as you can't rock the boat too much if you want to stay in it.

You would have thought that the CAA might at least be warning NPAS of this, unless some sort of political influence is being applied.

[PANews]

At the moment I think its fair to say there is no-one who fits the title ' pilot or engineer actually within the NPAS management' exactly....

That said it is clear that there is someone with an aviation background and a number of people with 'better' qualifications are being plugged into the core as the project progresses.

A number of long in the tooth Unit Executive Officer [UEO] names have been linked with the project recently.... so that provides some management input with assumed skills .... nothing on pilots yet but they still have 5 months until they go live and in any case they will be picking up the traces of a [near] living entity so its not as if they are starting from cold.

Still no news on whether the other Police Authorities have all signed up [just SYP being a 'No'].

Now that sounded almost positive! ;)

[Coconutty]

A number of long in the tooth Unit Executive Officer [UEO] names have been linked with the project recently....

Really ? - That's interesting - are their names beng kept secret ?

I hope they don't have any short sighted views and are ALL looking "Beyond the Horizon" :rolleyes:

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[Thomas coupling]

Oh dear :hmm:

http://www.clevelandpa.org.uk/admin/uploads/attachment/8_November_2011-Item%205%20-%20National%20Air%20Support%20Service%20Update.pdf

How many dissenters so far, now?

[Digital flight deck]

TC altogether a bit of a buggers muddle. It does make one wonder why the NPAS team are so reluctant to give out detail of the financial position, and who would, or indeed has, signed up to what could be a bit of a blank cheque. :confused:

[tigerfish]

Whats this I hear about the old UEO's?

Surely this is not a case of furry rodents abandoning their floating homes?

Despite stories to the contrary I am not dead, just badly wounded by my erstwhile chums, twas surely the Ides of March! But the wounds in the back are healing now and I'm watching this space!

Lookout! Ol Grumpy's back

Tigerfish

[zalt]

One Cessna was mentioned in the fraud trial of Tony Williams. At the time it was Dunsfold based.

[zorab64]

tigerfish - welcome back . . . just keep your head below the parapet, fire the odd mortar & some of us'll provide covering fire!! :ok:

[morris1]

At the moment I think its fair to say there is no-one who fits the title ' pilot or engineer actually within the NPAS management' exactly....


Let alone any observers..!

You know, the gibbering freight in the back, that actually do all the police work.!

Its lining up to be a typical police c*ck up..!
One where theyve asked everyones opinion, and got all sorts of "experts" out.

Everyone except the people actually doing the work, day in day out. !
:}:}

[BIT]

At the NPAS Symposium meeting held in Ryton last October, practitioner volunteers were sought to attend Regional and Task Specific Workstream Workshops where detail could be discussed and issues raised, in order to help shape the new air service.

The Workstreams and Chairs’ are;
HR - Simon Newman
Training - Neil Terrill
National Data Set - DUEO Martin Knowles
Observers - T/Supt Richard Watson
Procurement - Neil Terrill
Pilots - Captain Steve Isacke
Command & Control - Andy Mahoney
Maintenance - Neil Terrill

[PANews]

Well no wonder they are having trouble setting this up they do not speak English!

'practitioner'
'volunteers'
'Workstream'
'Chair’

All terms imported from the [Manchester] Guardian book of PC confusion!
Police people and volunteers does not compute.
Is Workstream like a Sodastream.... all gas nothing else?
I talk to my chair regularly and it never gives me the answers!
:E

[J.A.F.O.]

BIT

Very interesting, so many questions but I'm biting my lip.

[tigerfish]

JAFO,

Me too! And its starting to hurt.

I am confident though, that the chairs have been thought through carefully, and that a depth of practical experience has been brought into play.

Now let me see - Observers?:hmm:

Data set? OK Good solid experience there.

Pilots, - cannot comment

But the rest?? How much practical experience on operational units? Hopefully loads. But:hmm:

tigerfish

[MP5]

The NPAS Chair List by BIT could have be worse, one of the volunteers/chairs in charge of finance could have been this ex police authority chairman who picked contracts until recently! Detained overnight according to latest reports.

Police arrest Cleveland Police ex-chairman McLuckie (From The Northern Echo) (http://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/news/9352809.Police_arrest_Cleveland_Police_ex_chairman_McLuckie/)

[Wagging Finger]

A quick trawl on the interweb found these(no doubt more sarcastic versions will follow)

Practitioner:-
a person actively engaged in an art, discipline, or profession.

Volunteer:-
a person who freely offers to do something.

Chair:- the person in charge of a meeting or an organization (used as a neutral alternative to chairman or chairwoman).

The Chair does just that, if you were to look at the members of these groups (Practitioner volunteers)you would see the wealth of experience and knowledge. As the release says all regions are represented in each workstream.


:=

[Gas Generator]

Yes WF, we saw the 'wealth of experience' in action at the South Yorks PA meeting.

Welcome back TF, fancy being on a toothless and irrelevant work stream?

:ugh:

[Coconutty]

WOW ! - No NPAS news for 9 days !

Is it because everyone is too busy updating their CV's ready for all the new jobs that are on the way ? :rolleyes:

Here's one :

Flight Operations Director - 1401305126 - Flightglobal Jobs (http://www.flightglobal.com/jobs/job/flight-operations-director-united-kingdom-1401305126.htm)

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[Digital flight deck]

There are some interesting discussions on the NPIA POLKA web site for those who can access it. But, as you say, little news from NPAS, and with only 4 months (and Xmas to deal with) before they push the BIG RED BUTTON, I would like to think that they would consider a news letter or the like, or even a visit, just to keep those who may be affected by the first round of transfers to NPAS, or indeed redundancies, in the picture.

[MP5]

Meetings behind closed doors are proving positive about another north east helicopter consortium.

Alarm at cost of cop helicopter merger plan - Sunday Sun (http://www.sundaysun.co.uk/news/north-east-news/2011/11/20/copter-bid-bills-fear-79310-29806766/)

"It can also be revealed today that Cleveland, Durham and Northumbria forces are still in talks about pooling air resources."

Sources mention that there will be only room for one EC135 under Northumbrias rule. Will it be a T2 or P2+ which stays?

Northumbria and Durham forces have both previously stated that there is only a requirement for one helicopter following a lengthy best value revue.

Should be quids in for the three forces after the help of the recent home office grant for the Cleveland aircraft.

Could the north east super force planned under the Labour government be back on the cards now the opposing Cleveland Police Authority EX Chairman Dave McLukie is out of the way following his recent arrest by HMIC investigators?

Northumbria Police support the NPAS system.

[SilsoeSid]

A Home Office spokesman said it will save cash but forces argue that detailed figures have not yet been provided.

Dated Nov 20th; with only 4 months & 10 days to go, still no detailed figures :eek:




The Home Office said: “The National Police Air Service will provide a more consistent service while saving forces £15m per year when fully in place across all forces – savings that will help to protect frontline policing.”

That really does sound as if each force will be making a saving of £15m per year. Sounds great, where do we sign ? :=

[Digital flight deck]

Smoke and mirrors with a touch of political speak. Quite infuriating really.

[tigerfish]

The problem with that North East solution is that it makes exactly the same fatal mistake that NPAS is making. It proposes to spread the Jam too thin!!

When will people realise that the success of Police Air Support has always depended on rapid deployment and rapid arrival on scene. If that arrival is any longer than 15 minutes (20 at the outside) then the deployment of the aircraft is likely to have been wasted. We learnt that lesson in the late 80's and early 90's and it still holds good today.

The NPAS plan spreads the jam so thin all across the country that time and time again aircraft will be arriving on scene far too late to be effective! Forces will quite simply we wasting valuable cash resources.

I am sorry, - but your throw away comment about, "will it be the T2 or P2 that survives" reveals your lack of understanding about the differences between the two aircraft. The Turbomeca powered T2 is fine but never had the performance of the original T1 which many preffered. No Police force in the UK ever received a ( Pratt & Whitney powered ) P2 which had similar drawbacks to the T2.

What Cleveland and others received was the much improved later development, the P2+ which was a far better bet, and went a long way towards restoring the original T1 performance, lost when the CAA demanded enhanced and heavier stabilization than was fitted to the T1.

In addition the P2+ machines deleted the heavy centreline equipment pod, and mounted flir and Nitesun on Meker mounts or bolsters. This permitted lower skids and a much improved all round machine.

I know which one I would want if push came to shove! But it is wrong to suggest taking either out. To ensure efficient and proper safe cover for the poor bloody infantry on the ground keep both!

The thinning of air cover will invite the return of all the problems that we once had licked! Money has to be saved I totally accept that, but it can be done in better ways. These proposals neauter the effectiveness of the weapon. The resultant rump of a service will just waste even more money!

Ol' Grumpy

AKA "tigerfish":ugh:

[SilsoeSid]

A break from a 'head in the books' 'foggy night' 'pre OPC' session.. digs up;


http://www.northumbria-police-authority.org/docs/statementaccounts0910.pdf

Annual costs 2009;
Air Support £1.45m (assets £3.7m)
Stationary £1.65m


At the 31 March 2010 5.26% of the Authority’s £88.886m of deposits were with financial institutions domiciled outside of the UK. (Singapore)

The Authority maintains a debt portfolio of £50.37m and investment portfolio of £88.886m.

£139.26m 'sitting around' and they 'want to' join NPAS to save £350k p/a with possibly a reduced service, especially when N.Yorkshire will have access to the ac :confused:

[timex]

MP5, where does it say 1 Helicopter between the 3 counties? Cleveland are still not signed up to NPAS and Durham and Northumbria are working together.

Looking at the map of the North, its easy to see that both N Yorks and Cumbria will soon have access to Air support. Wonder how long it will be before the trips to the lakes and the N York moors for Mispers start?

[MP5]

Edited the P2 so it now has + :ok:

Timex, the Sunday Sun article comments about them in talks about pooling resources again. The best value revue undertaken by Northumbria Police into its asu operations stated that they only wanted one a/c. Durham agreed which was why both forces left the previous 3 force setup. I'm not aware that has changed. We will have to wait and see.

Silsoe, if the Home Office see how much spare cash there is banked up here, Mrs May may cut force funding even further next year. Thats a lot of Mays isnt it! Singapore? they dont do Euro's do they?

[zorab64]

BIT (10 Nov) re the list of chairs.
Whilst I've seen it before, posting it again just enhances the pain somewhat. It would be less painful if one knew that the "chairs" were seriously listening to experts in the relevant field, and were not planning to make changes in areas where they have absolutely no real or practical experience in - there being two names that leap off the page immediately. :ugh:

Tigerfish - having come across, & worked with, the pilot workstream chair many times, I can assure you that there aren't many in the UK quite as balanced or experienced, so nothing to worry about there, IMHO. :D I'd also concur with your performance comments on T2 vs P2i.

And as for potential applicants for the advertised job, let us pray that the interview process is vigourous enough to stick to evidenced experience in the various areas requested, especially . . . financial and resource management experience at a senior, strategic level OR strategic and tactical planning with excellent problem solving and communications skills
otherwise we'll end up with another spectacular NPAS own goal when applicants apply to the salary rather than the task, I fear. As has been posted before, there are some (but only a very few) people in the UK who would manage to fit the full criteria, however much Police ASU experience they have, I believe.

[chopper2004]

Whats the news of Honington to accomodate the pair of EC135 that will cover Cambs, Suffolk and Essex?

Though I thought I read on the military aircrew forum somewhere that anything to support flight operations had been removed last year? Barring the mention of thefts of airfield lights by the locals.

Cheers

[tigerfish]

It is important to realise that the NPAS proposals will bring about a fundamental change in the way Police Air Support will be used, and also in the way it is perceived by the public.

Until now the Police Helicopter has proved to be highly effective in combating vehicle crime, onstreet muggings and some burglaries etc, also in its search role whether it be for lost and vulnerable mispers or escaped fugitives. Some problematical crimes such as the ram raid have been almost eliminated. The gathering of evidence especially photographic evidence has been made easier.

But now with the jam spread so thin, it is likely that the role of the helicopter will change. I suspect the tendency will be away from mainly reactive Policing, to that of being part of the resources available for major and pre planned events.

Chief Officers appear to have lost interest in arresting criminals for street and vehicle crime. What is more important now is to make a good showing in controlling major sporting events, demonstrations and public order issues. They were always important before, but together with Counter Terrorism appear to be the only consideration now. ( I fully support the need for enhanced counter terrorism )

But there is a danger in the way we are moving away from the needs of the general public. Make no bones about it, generally speaking the public at large supported the use of the Police Helicopter in combating local crime. It was effective, and above all visible. When there was no Bobby on the Beat the public still knew we were about because of the helicopter. "it makes us feel safe" was the comment often heard. It had a serious effect on the criminal too. The increased chance of being caught did deter many from that sort of crime and enhanced community safety at the same time.

Sadly the era of NPAS will markedly reduce that advantage to Policing in general. Yes! - I know it was expensive, and change had to come, but there were other ways of saving money without reducing the fleet so much.

I maintain that what is coming will save some money in the short term, but will have a huge cost in the years to come. The public will lose yet more confidence in the Police as the Helicopter appears less and less in their sky's

tigerfish

AKA Ol grumpy.:hmm:

[SilsoeSid]

Any news on the move to RAF Colerne?

http://www.aspola.org.uk/cache/PDF/Document6039_515152.pdf
AVON AND SOMERSET POLICE AUTHORITY
4 OCTOBER 2011
REPORT OF THE CHIEF CONSTABLE
NATIONAL POLICE AIR SERVICE AND LOCAL UPDATE

4.3 NPAS proposes Western Counties and Wiltshire relocate to a new base at RAF Colerne and reduce by one aircraft. This is being expedited as a priority in terms of their project considerations because of the proposed closure of Filton Airfield by December 2012. NPAS state any proposed move must take place before this date. Home Office capital funding for Colerne (£1.4 million) has been granted and is in the process of being lodged with Hampshire Police in a holding account.

4.4 Ensuring operational coverage both in terms of time and non-time critical incidents remains a concern with Colerne given its topographical and geographical location. NPAS commissioned a meteorological study approximately one year ago due to concerns about poor weather which may lead to an increased loss of service. The study has been completed using comparative data from RAF Lyneham and Bristol Airport and it is known that NPAS are in possession of that report but they keep delaying the publishing of that report.

[spannatime]

Anyone know of any online documents showing a map of the planned bases and their areas of coverage?

[J.A.F.O.]

chopper2004 - I think that you may have grabbed not only the wrong end of the stick but, perhaps, the wrong stick entirely.

Tigerfish - good to have you back.

[Coconutty]

The Home Office said: “The National Police Air Service will provide a more consistent service while saving forces........."Is this a "Home Office" statement, or an NPAS one ?

If it's Home Office then it's different from the original NPAS statement,
iI it's NPAS then it's an admission that the original statement,
which promised a more efficient service while saving money, was WRONG.

Whoever is making the 'new' statement, the term "consistent" would appear to be much more appropriate.

I'm actually very concerned that the statement is true, and an NPAS service WILL be consistent :

Consistently arriving on scene too late to be effective,
Consistently declining requests for Air Support that would previously have received a response,
Consistently reducing the confidence of Police Officers on the ground, that they will receive the level of Air support they need,
Consistently reducing the Public's satisfaction with the Police service they receive,
Consistently improving the chances of criminals, including the serious and organised varieties, to escape and evade capture.

If the quoted 'new' statement is accurate, then ( whoever said it ) at least there now appears to be
an admission that NPAS will NOT be more efficient than the services provided now.

Which just leaves the cost - and those costs keep going up and up - a few Million here for new bases,
a few hundred thousand there for new top level jobs that hadn't originally been factored in,
unknown additional "shared costs" between those that do sign up,
to compensate for the lack of revenue from those that don't, etc etc etc .

No wonder NPAS still seem to be reluctant to reveal detailed costings - are they struggling to PROVE that NPAS will save any money at all ?

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[SilsoeSid]

Beware the Ides of March, or more accurately, the Kalends of April.


NPAS, it seems that no matter how much support an individual gives them, and work that individual puts in to get a region going, they will still do a Brutus !


Historical note:
The conspirators attacked in such numbers that they even wounded one another.

[Art of flight]

JAFO, perhaps Choppers 'stick' could be used as a magic wand and invent runway lighting, a met office, on site maintenance (well some times...) and an ILS at Honington (along with the other 135?)? Hang on a minute.....

[chopper2004]

J.A.F.O

My apologies, I must have got certain articles mixed up but please put me right! Cambs will lose their Explorer at some point and the Suffolk/Essex guys will be looking after the academic end of the A14 and M11 and A428 :)

Art of Flight

I wish I could wave a magic wand :)


Cheers

[J.A.F.O.]

To be honest, chopper, you've got as much chance of being right as anybody; you don't get over 2000 posts on a topic if anybody really knows the answer.

[SilsoeSid]

To be honest, chopper, you've got as much chance of being right as anybody; you don't get over 2000 posts on a topic if anybody really knows the answer.

A very good observation. Interestingly, if any of the answers were even on the POLKA site, I'm sure by now, despite the secrecy threats, some info would have been here by now. :hmm:


Any news on the NPAS PAOC?
Just interested as NPAS will be operating the same number of aircraft as an operator such as DHL and wondered if the numbers operated under one organisation will be making a difference. :8

If for some reason the NPAS AOC isn't sorted by April 1st, will we actually have any air support? Looks like South Yorkshire could be both busy and making a profit from the start ! :ok:

[Art of flight]

Oh come on now Sid! Down south we reckoned we'd just about cracked this NPAS lark by thinking about forming a badge design working party for our region in time for actually getting it to meet by April and you go off on some obscure tangent raving about legislation;)

[timex]

We get a badge?.....result!

[SilsoeSid]

Oh no !!!

An excuse for that blazing saddles video to be posted. :rolleyes:

[Art of flight]

Chopper,

What is in the public domain is that the Norfolk aircraft is no more, Suffolk AOU has amalgamated with Norfolk ASU and the ex-Norfolk ASU observers now crew the soon to be ex-Suffolk 135P2+ along with pilots and observers (police and civilian) from the Eastern counties consortium (Suffolk/Essex/Cambridgeshire) The ex-Suffolk aircraft is to move to a new NPAS base at RAF Honington sometime in the future to better serve the expanded area of operations which includes Norfolk and Cambridgeshire, and in preparation has new owners stickers on the doors using the first 3 letters of the former owners and the last 4 letters of the new partners, 'SUFFOLK'. If not actually saving money with the new stickers they were at least a no-cost option. The Essex 135 is not moving to Honington and already has Kent stickers (3 years old now) on it so again whilst not saving money, not spending any either!

[Art of flight]

The blazing saddles camp fire scene has a remarkable resemblance to our 'badge design working group' first seminar.

[Digital flight deck]

Art I'm glad you cleared all that up.

[tigerfish]

Now perhaps some of you might be starting to understand what I have been saying!

Can someone please explain to this simple mind, how one aircraft can provide rapid support to a Bobby in trouble, or any sudden serious crime incident, occuring somewhere in the three Counties of Norfolk, Suffolk and Cambridgshire, - and get there in 15 minutes?

Policing is all about " The prevention and detection of Crime and the prosecution of offenders against the Peace". Or am I missing the point?

Come on Guy's lets find a way of bringing this debacle to public attention!
It is a 100% stone wall ***K up.

I might have been stabbed in the back once, but now I am really quite cross!


tigerfish:mad:

[Digital flight deck]

Sorry Tiger, it is not about " rapid response", it is about rethoric like " enhanced service because the CC has acces to air support for 24 hrs", regardless of response times. The sad thing is that like most things political this can be spun in any fashion as to give the impression desired by the spinner. The trouble I have with all this is that I think it is the thin edge of a very uncertain wedge. We will have to see I suppose.

[SilsoeSid]

Just looking to the future, as there are going to be plenty of times ahead where we are all going to be placed in the redundancy pot, (legally or not) how does someone go about getting a job within NPAS ?

I realise that not all public sector jobs have to be advertised, but does NPAS really fall in to the so specialist a department that it doesn't need to? Surely that system, used incorrectly, allows those with 'other agendas' to fulfill them?

[Coconutty]

Policing is all about " The prevention and detection of Crime and the prosecution of offenders against the Peace". Or am I missing the point?
Hey Tiger - Don't forget the one about saving life & protecting property !
( After all a 20 minute circle is only 1/3 of the Golden Hour during a Casevac :ugh:).

Those definitions are probably still true on paper, but in reality we see more and more examples
of those higher up the food chain appearing to be more concerned with how something will look on their C.V.
or whether their plans can be achieved in time for the next New Year's Honour's nominations,
than the practical and / or personal effect their decisions can make,
while at the bottom of the ladder, at humble P.C. level, the main priority is often
"How can I get through another shift without dropping in the brown stuff?"

Never mind bringing NPAS to the attention of the Council Tax paying Public,
the vast majority of the tens of thousands of Police Officers and staff out there who are the main "customers"
( apologies for lowering myself to using such a term ) of Air Support Units,
have absolutely no idea of what NPAS is, or how it will affect their day to day brown stuff avoiding roles.

How to publicise it ? - Well, a lot of forces are now getting all Touchy Feely with their communities
by using Social media interaction such as Farcebook and Twatter,
so how about some of the information that IS in the Public domain being posted up ?

Hopefully the Public and other "customers" may ask some searching questions, and honest answers can be given ?

And there's always the option of starting a Government e-petition once the ball is rolling :rolleyes:

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[Helinut]

tigerfish,

I thought your post 2061 was as concise and accurate a summary of how air support will change for the worse under NPAS, as I have seen.

I suspect I am not alone in that. That we did not all post a "here here" does not mean that we do not agree with you: quite the reverse. Except for a few trolls or stirrers, almost everyone who owns this thread agrees with you.

The question you raise in your latest post is the difficult one.

We know what you say is correct. The career senior police officers who are trying to sell NPAS are acting now just like politicians, but it still surprises me that they are prepared to twist and turn and use political-speak to say half-truths and even lie about air support effectiveness. It may be borne partly of limited knowledge of how air support works - the only qualification in common that the names I see as senior NPAS postholders have seems to be no significant previous experience of air support.

But how do we raise this and where, so that it has any chance of changing things? Universal mediocrity of air support is on its way. Countless hours of wasted and pointless transits to wave an aerial police flag over a cold crime scene.

It may be that we should at least try to do something (in order to be able to say that at least we tried), but I regretfully doubt that we coal face (or ex) workers will be listened to.

[SilsoeSid]

With an amount of units forming NPAS come April 1st, how will the staff of those units fair when other units close down in later years? Will the staff of the units being closed later be the only ones up for redundancy if no posts are available, or will everyone already part of NPAS be in the pot?

If it is the latter, does that mean the staff from the founding units will have to fight for their jobs perhaps up to 5 times over 3 years?

[tigerfish]

Thanks for your support! I guess it comes under the heading of Covering Fire, ( See earlier ).

I guess the best that can be done is this. :- Don't miss any opportunity to bring to the attention of your local Media, local Councillors, Local MP's, the local Police Authority, your fears about the emansculation of their local Air support capability. Do they really understand the likely long term effects of what is proposed?

Give it to them in plain language, - as a professional Air Support practitioner. So far they have had the smoke & mirrors version, - the art of Political correctness. the public appreciate being told the truth, - What it is!

Tell em!

tigerfish.

[Thomas coupling]

As a bystander* passionate about police air ops, I suspect many can't see the woods for the trees any more. I certainly don't wish that to be derogatory in any shape or form.
BUT, this is a fait accompli. Society is undergoing a "re-calibration" due to a massive economic downturn and cut backs in this (police) domain are a tiny slither of the bigger slice that has been forever removed from our country's financial reserves.
IF one accepts that EVERY person/department has to play their part in reshaping the financial future of this nation, then one must accept CUT BACKS.
Now, IF this is the case (and surely no-one here thinks things can continue ad infinitum), then slashing the air support bill by 20% is (a) in line with almost every other public sector requirement and (b) necessary.
We are riddled with debt. For every family in the UK, we are paying £23000/year in debt interest alone! The UK combined debt is the equivalent of almost £300,000 per family??
It is time to stop prevaricating and time for action. £15,000,000 from Air Support means the loss of 5 choppers - get used to it. Take the medicine, or the illness will not go away.
Wallowing over spilt milk is not constructive. It will mean that taking the medicine is a lot harder.

Stage 2: 5 choppers down accepted, there is now the golden opportunity to rationalise a fragmented service, one which in the past re-invented the wheel 20 times over as each ASU was born, using different a/c, different tactics, different suppliers, different salaries even! Time to take stock of what a very sophisticated very capable air force can actually do.
I think you shot yourselves in the foot: By making the service one of the most advanced, most sophisticated, most capable public service element (probably) in the world, it means they have outgrown the original remit which included: twoc's / petty burglary / domestics, etc etc. If my original Lada has now morphed into a bentley, I am not going to continue using it to pop down to the shops for a bottle of milk or to go cruising on a Saturday night :)

Time to point a very expensive, very smart weapon at............you've guessed it....it needs to go up market.
Like it or not, Air Support has come of age and it wants to leave home and stand on its own two feet. Give it a chance to do that - As the head of the MCA said to al those detractors with SAR(H): The train is leaving the station, you are either on it or out of it.

Good luck

[Digital flight deck]

SS. I am lead to believe that the latter is indeed the scenario that will be in place. 5 years of a pi$$ed off workforce, great ! :uhoh:

[RJC]

Interesting twist, at a Cambridgeshire Police & crime strategy board meeting today, one of the Police and Crime Commissioner candidates is understood to be saying they'll reverse the Police Authority decision to lose the Cambs helicopter if elected.

I wonder, when the Police Authorities get swapped out for these elected posts next year, how many of these people could influence the decisions to join NPAS (or not in the case of Cambs)?

[Shell Management]

But don't the Home Office have the power to overrule?

[Digital flight deck]

The buggers muddle becomes more buggered and more muddled. Just wake me up when it is all sorted out.

[Gas Generator]

Shell

In a way your right, the Home Office could have sorted this all out? They haven't done, they have not overruled and I think they won't either. This has been handed down to a group of non-aviation people with an agenda and the Gov will want to point fingers at someone else when it goes pear-shaped.

I think reading some of the rhetoric coming out of various trade shows recently that agenda is to sell Augusta helicopters, a re-run of the debacle we had back in 1985 and not to enhance the excellent and semi-integrated service that has been built up since the early nineties. The twisted logic about sending the right size helicopter for the job belies the fact that the people making these statements just do not know what a SAR job involves. But it makes good listening for those without knowledge that hold the purse strings. With many SAR jobs you do not know what you are dealing with until you get on scene, by then it is to late to send the appropriate winch fitted aircraft. And, I cannot see a noisy AW169 hovering at 600ft AGL over a city in poor weather on a police job!

RJC raises a very interesting point - will the new Crime Commissioners do as SYO councillors did and put the public first?

TC, I think everyone realises that there is a national crisis, it has got to be sorted out and that the police are not immune to some of the pain. I think everyone agrees that it is long overdue for a National Police Air Service, but, NOT THIS WAY.

:{

[Digital flight deck]

Ouch ! :ouch:

[Blue Thunder]

Thomas Coupling, well said that man.:D

[J.A.F.O.]

And, I cannot see a noisy AW169 hovering at 600ft AGL over a city in poor weather on a police job!

I hope you're right. IMHO it seems too big for the police job and too small for SAR. I hope that those making the decisions are aware.

DFD - Perhaps someone could kick you underneath the desk to wake you.

[Wagging Finger]

TC well said, nail struck well on head. Food for thought for all.

All aboard!!!


:=

[morris1]

IF one accepts that EVERY person/department has to play their part in reshaping the financial future of this nation, then one must accept CUT BACKS.

You see the whole point of this thread is that NOT everyone accepts that.

We all accept how much in the poo the country is.
However those in "the business" believe that there is such a thing as "ring fencing" vital areas. (The government are doing it EVERYWHERE)

Most ASUs account for about 1.5% of their forces budget.
The effect of the loss of that ASU however is very disproportional to the money saved..!

This is why "practioners" are very passionate about the job they do.
They can see that NPAS model makes no sense.

Join up procurement to achieve better bargaining power - YES
Regionalise to save chief pilot/UEOs/Training Officer/Engineer posts - YES
Break down geographical barriers for better economy - YES

Close Down busy ASUs that are effective and viable - NO NO NO :=

[Coconutty]

Wag :

All aboard!!!

Hardly :ugh:

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconut1.jpg

[zorab64]

TC, Morris & others - there's a good bit of sense in your comments.
I've been frustrated for many years at the inability of parochial forces to allow their eagle to fly further than the limits of their own "garden", especially when their eyrie is right next to the neighbours fence and the prey is in full view . . . but the neighbour's eagle is busy prosecuting a mouse in the far corner of his garden, so the new prey will be back in his hole before duty eagle can get there!
Luckily, there are areas where this "my county, my aircraft" attitude is a little more flexible (it's been working for some while in East Anglia, I understand), or new areas (Mids) where NPAS has effectively forced an early change of M.O. :ok:

Sadly some on this thread just wish to rail against the proposals, rather than take a leaf out of Morris' book & make some alternative & valid suggestions. Whilst the more mature should all agree with TC's summary of the personal/family/county/country/world situation, and the fact that things are going to have to change, we do not, as a professional collective, tend to agree on the method. Sitting on a NIMBY fence will get us nowhere, but making best use of the kit we've got, and proving that you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear (which we all know) will, very sadly, be the only way we can show those that are looking for savings, that Air Support may not be the best place to make them, in the manner currently proposed.

[wherefore]

On the subject of mandating - the way i read point 10 on this House of Commons - Home Affairs Committee - Written Evidence (http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201012/cmselect/cmhaff/939/939we25.htm)
is that mandating is not looked upon favourably?

"10. We are aware of Ministers' frustration at the progress made by some police authorities and forces on collaboration. However, where the Government feels the need to intervene in such matters, the APA urges caution. While the APA agrees with police authorities being encouraged to give due regard to collaboration in the interests of effectiveness and efficiency, it does not endorse mandation. Authorities must be given the freedom to collaborate where they believes it makes sense and the numbers "stack up". The proposed National Air Support Strategy is an example of collaboration making no such sense to several police authorities. In this instance, mandating won't change the underlying fundamentals that will result in higher costs and poorer service for the affected communities. "

[Gas Generator]

Nice piece of information, well dug up.

:D

[Wagging Finger]

Wherefore,
Your post could be considered a little misleading, it seems to imply that Ministers are against a mandated imposition, however when you read the original in full (which in your defence you provide a link to) it is the Association of Police Authorities that are against being mandated! So the people who may at some stage have it imposed on them are against it? imagine that! Let's not forget, these are the same people who six years ago argued against amalgamation of Forces to save money.

Then again, less Forces equals less Police authorities, could that have something to do with it?:ugh:

[MP5]

Labour built this white elephant.
It only costs £4m per month to maintain while standing empty!
New control room going cheap anyone?

Regional fire centre plans end in "complete failure" costing taxpayer £469m (From The Northern Echo) (http://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/news/local/durham/9259795.Regional_fire_centre_plans_end_in__complete_failure_ _costing_taxpayer___469m/)

Could have been worse, we might have joined the Euro :bored:

[Digital flight deck]

We have one of those in Cambridge.

Cambridge News | Latest News Headlines From Cambridge City & Cambridgeshire | National News By Cambridge News | Fire control centre plan 'wasted millions' (http://www.cambridge-news.co.uk/Home/Fire-control-center-plan-wasted-millions-20092011.htm)

[Coconutty]

It only costs £4m per month to maintain while standing empty!That is absolutely DISGRACEFUL -
although the figure of £4 million per month appears to be for the upkeep of 8 Regional Control centres, not just one.
( i.e. £48 million per year for the 8 unused centres ).

That works out at £6 million each per year, or £0.5 million each per month.

Here in the wonderful Midlands we have a brand new empty and unused Fire Control Centre,
that apparantly only costs a mere £1.4 million per year to be left empty.

Unused Wolverhampton fire control centre costing £1.4m a year in rent - West Midlands News - News - Birmingham Post (http://www.birminghampost.net/news/west-midlands-news/2011/07/01/unused-wolverhampton-fire-control-centre-costing-1-4m-a-year-in-rent-65233-28971876/)

That's a HUGE SAVING of £4.6 million per year in the Midlands :}

There are ( currently ) 4 Air Support Units in the Midlands region with a combined total budget not far off this £4.6 million saving,
so working on the general concept and principal of trying to save 20% overall Policing budget,
the above savings from the abandoned Midlands Fire Control Room would pay for the next 5 years of Air Support in the Midlands region, without needing any cutbacks at all :ok:

Anyone know when the NPAS Finance Director's job might be advertised - I think I might apply ;)

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[Digital flight deck]

Anyone know when the NPAS Finance Director's job might be advertised
I hope they employ someone who can add, and not just another copper with a career caption.

[Art of flight]

I think the present NPAS finance director might be a little miffed if her job were advertised?

[MP5]

Could this be heading to the UK. Merseyside maybe :E

Took a couple of clicks to get the video to start on the Fox page.

Drone Gives Texas Law Enforcement Bird's-Eye View On Crime | Fox News (http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/11/16/drone-gives-texas-law-enforcement-birds-eye-view-on-crime/?test=latestnews)

[Coconutty]

Could this be heading to the UK. Merseyside maybeDoubtful - it isn't fitted with floats ;)

I wonder if NPAS will be using the same Media publicity team though,
some of their phrases seem to follow a pattern to those being used NPAS,
such as their Mission statement of Improving efficiency .... :

It’s equipped with an infrared camera that can clearly read a license plate from an elevation of twelve hundred feet...
... although FAA Regulations prohibit it from actually being used above 400 feet, and ....

Saving money :

The helicopter cost upwards of $300,000 ....I Love that phrase "upwards of" :rolleyes:
The video clip says the grant was for half a million US$. :ooh:

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[Final Flare]

After reading Morris' post about alternative ways of saving the £15m, I thought about those already set up with regionalisation. Take South Yorks, Humberside and West Yorks. One has 24 hr working already, and the other two have staggered operating times, therefore providing redundancy. I believe at present that West Yorks are STILL waiting for their annual servicing to be completed and Humberside are daylight only (I dont know why, prob technical failure), this leaves South Yorks to cover both areas. Well done South Yorks Police Authority for looking ahead !!! Anyway both Humberside and West Yorks have the trek to Gloucester for their servicing, why not just go to South Yorks. I believe they have resident engineers and a blooming great airfield with Hangarage not to mention a Part 145 already in place. Again I believe that as Police employees already paid by South Yorks, labour would be minimal. Also again conjecture, but they dont pay over the odds for parts. Am I thinking too far out of the box? Even the transit alone would save money. Would other regional servicing bases make more sense, especially to the more nothern units? Dont shoot me, only asking.....

[Art of flight]

FF,

Good to see some positive thinking on alternatives in case the NPAS model doesn't work out as planned. With the announcement this week that we're looking for a further 30 billion in cuts in the next 6 years we need to look at every option. I really fear now that rural counties will shed air support hours very quickly once their budgets take a further hammering.

Tin helmet time!

[Coconutty]

How is it that some forces such as South Yorkshire can publicly circulate a video of their Police Authority meeting - Where they opted out of NPAS,
but other forces who may or may not yet not have committed to NPAS "in principle" or otherwise, can keep their Police Authority meetings "Private",
under the terms of "Paragraph 10 of Schedule 12a of the Local Government Act 1972", as not being in the Public Interest to disclose :confused:

... When will it be in the Public Interest to publicly dislcose and / or consult with the Public ( who pay for Police Air Support ),
or are their views not going to be considered before any decision is made ?

West Midlands Police Authority - Meetings and Events (http://www.west-midlands-pa.gov.uk/meetingsandevents.asp?c=1&s=meet&uy=2011&um=12#null) ( 1/12/11 Agenda )

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[Digital flight deck]

Art are you saying 30 bil from police budgets?

[wherefore]

The reason the PA meeting minutes on NPAS is deemed not in the public interest is they will be discussing operational risk and vulnerabilities amongst other things. They always have that to avoid disclosure of the things that make them uncomfortable.

[Art of flight]

DFD

I hope not! Having said that, once education, NHS, & defence (to a lesser degree) have been further ring fenced, justice and policing will take another large hit no doubt.

[Gas Generator]

What is happening within the police community with respect to pay? The recent advert for the Met places a value on a line pilot at £65,134 plus £1883, £67017.

I can only assume the Met CP will be on a figure with length of service close to or upward of £75000 - £80,000? Yet the advert for the Chief Pilot of NPAS placed a value of £70,000 - £78,000 on that position, less than the Met CP, and I guess several other positions around the country?

Also the advert for the line pilot position of the western counties air operations unit pilot about a year ago:

All Police Jobs - A revolution in police recruitment (http://www.allpolicejobs.co.uk/police_job.php?jid=26161)

That advert was for £36,033 - £38,805? That's nearly a £30,000 difference for the persons doing the same job, one in london and one in gloucestershire? Even with London waiting that's not right surely?

[Art of flight]

The met want an 'IR' qualification and living in an expensive area of the country, hence the salary, the NPAS position doesn't require IR and IRE/TRE so a 'lesser' pilot role if at all (the ad doesn't actually specify flying duties), but more organisational and liaison/management skills required, of course it remains to be seen if anyone would want to do it at that price (any 59 yo police senior pilots looking for a job?)

[SilsoeSid]

Are there any updates?

Deadlines have passed, so how many have signed up 'in full' as opposed to 'in principal'?

109 days to go !


Clicky (http://www.kenttrustweb.org.uk/kentict/content/games/countDownClock.html)

[Ivor E Tower]

Found this while surfing!! only up £6million from last year. Nick Herberts Funding announcement

Provisional Police Funding Announcement: 8 Dec 2011: Hansard Written Answers and Statements - TheyWorkForYou (http://www.thegovernmentsays.com/cache/1058701.html)

"Police Capital

I am minded to amend the capital allocations for police authorities in order to support the establishment of the National Police Air Service. I will consider carefully any representations on this matter before taking my decision in time for the final settlement debate in February 2012. This change would mean that the proportion of police capital that goes to the NPAS would be increased to £10.8 million in 2012-13—£6 million more than I suggested this time last year. These proposed figures are set out in table 2."

Table 2: Proposed Division o f Police Capital Between Funding Streams

2012-13 £m 2013-14 £m 2014-15 £m
Capital Grant 118 106 109
National Police Air Service 11 13 10
Special Grant Capital 1 1 1
Total 130 120 120

[MP5]

BBC news tonight:

Clevelands latest Police Authority Chairman jumps ship after a meeting about a "conflict of interests" I wonder which contract firm he owned?
Cleveland Police Authority to Appoint New Chairman (http://www.clevelandpa.org.uk/latest-news/new-chair-appointment)

BBC News - Cleveland Police Authority needs new chairman (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tees-16186371)
Thats 2 chairman who have jumped in the last year!

The latest stand in at the authority is going to be the vice chairman at the CPA who became Mayor of Hartlepool after dressing up in a monkey suit to get noticed. I kid you not :eek:

BBC - Moss Missives: Stuart Drummond - from monkey suit to world domination (http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/richardmoss/2010/06/stuart_drummond_from_monkey_su.html)

Only one sensible option left, Nothumbria will have to take over Cleveland as previously planned for the force and save on expenses ;)

Cleveland Police Authority to Appoint New Chairman (http://www.clevelandpa.org.uk/latest-news/new-chair-appointment)

Part of the letter:
Following a recent meeting between the Authority, HMIC and the Head of Operation Sacristy, I have become aware of what could be perceived as a potential conflict of interest for me if I were to continue in my role as Chair or a Member of CPA.

Therefore I have decided that I should stand down from the Authority with immediate effect.
:ok:

[Coconutty]

The Selection process for the NPAS Flight Ops Director is taking place this week and next week.

Anyone know who within NPAS ( or otherwise ? ) is conducting the interviews, and running the process,
and what experience they might have to qualify them as being able to select the most suitable applicant for this vital role ?

The successful applicant is anticipated to be in post by 15/3/12 - Who's going to pay their wages ?

Are those wages subject to "everyone" having signed up to NPAS by that date,
and therefore started paying into the pot ?

So many questions, and so little time ( 107 days ) !

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[Art of flight]

Coco,

The Tax payer pays all the wages.

ALL police budgets will be top-sliced to make up the initial NPAS start-up budget, so even South Yorks can't opt out of that one.

In 108 days those of us that become NPAS will report for shift, fly when requested to, and go home at the end of it. Some time later things may start to change, slowly.............;)

[Thomas coupling]

The interview board is well equipped to pick the right person, trust me.
And the right person is already in amongst the hopefuls.
I think you'll find things will turn out for the best in this regard.;)

[Coconutty]

The Tax payer pays all the wages..... and (generally) have NO idea what's happening to the Police Air Support service they pay for, or have any input into what's happening.

ALL police budgets will be top-sliced to make up the initial NPAS start-up budget, so even South Yorks can't opt out of that one..... did I hear someone mention the phrase "Bullying" ?

TC - Who's on the Interview Board then ? ... or is that another secret not being released by NPAS ?

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[tigerfish]

TC, I thought that your response in post 2084 revealed a significant change in attitude towards NPAS, and now that I read 2121 I am sure of it.

Can I now assume that you are on board? Nothing wrong in that of course, but I had always respected your neautral stance and it appears to have shifted.

tigerfish

[Art of flight]

A copy from the thread on the proposed cutting of the RAF SH force PUMA.

Quote:

As to how broke the government is, try looking at this...

UK National Debt | Economics Blog (http://www.economicshelp.org/blog/334/uk-economy/uk-national-debt/)


We may not be as "broke" as some other countries, but we are still broke, and still borrowing £140Bn odd each year to make ends meet (despite the "massive cuts" Labour keep referring to), so continually increasing the size of the overall national debt. Indeed, when the coalition talked about getting rid of the deficit by 2015 (which they probably won't now be able to do), as opposed to Labour which planned to half it, they were talking about the ANNUAL deficit, not the overall one.

If we don't put our own house in order, and end up going cap in hand to the IMF, then any cuts undertaken nationally will be as nothing to any imposed on us externally - external ones will be far more draconian.

As a country we are living beyond our means, and it cannot continue indefinitely.

Cuts in government spending are necessary, where they are made, welfare, defence, education, NHS, etc are decided by the people that our supposed democratic system placed in power.

Unquote

In summary, we're knackered! We've had the good old days, we just didn't realise it at the time. We had 15 years of borrowing hundreds of billions from the Chinese at around 2%, great when the economy was growing at a greater rate than that. Trouble is we've now got 10 or more years of having to pay them back when we haven't got any income to do so.

How about we ringfence police aviation spending as it is today, all take a 33% pay and pension cut and keep the service as it is? Didn't think so.

[Digital flight deck]

Art, how about some of those leaches in the city giving a fraction of what they "earn" to help the overall appalling situation caused in part by their imoral methods of making money. And the bankers that have now retired with millions in pensions and pay-offs doing what they should if they had any morals at all. No hang on, we can get the general public and public work force (not servants but providers of essential services), to pay for all this by bringing back the Dickensian way of doing things. Well that's all right then!

We may be "where we are", but it does not make it right. Even Tony Blair could help with some of his £15 mill per year earnings. After all it was his government that borrowed all the money we are now having to pay back.

Corr, I do feel better now. :)

[Art of flight]

DFD,

Spot on fella! Just need the bit in the middle to happen.....a govt that can change the 'greed culture' whilst still rewarding hard work..........aint gonna happen!

For what it's worth one of my more out there ideas would be to cap all pensions to say £40,000 paid at 60, all salaries to £100,000......Politicians, GPs, leaders of councils, Chief Constables lead the way! Introduce 90% tax on any extra above those figures.

At your age (20) you've got a lot of years of cuts ahead.

Got to go, Escape to the country's on, well you gotta have a dream...

[Digital flight deck]

Art of Flight for President. :ok:

[J.A.F.O.]

on no more than £100,000 per annum (and that's full time, Art - with no daytime telly). ;)

[Thomas coupling]

Tigerfish,

To clarify:
The process is underway, as a government initiative, driven by the HO and brokered a while ago by Hogan Hough when he was Chair of ACPO, it is now in motion - take it or leave it. This is a given and that is what my earlier post described. People bemoaning this fact are merely crying over spilt milk.

My latest post recognises that the vehicle in which this process is being carried forward - has qualified persons onboard. It has simply taken this long for them to realise that to drive the vehicle responsibly, they need someone with a driving licence who is able to drive:suspect:

PS: Provided they pick the right person, there is a good chance he might be able to prevent the vehicle from going off a cliff (which is just appearing in the distance).

Part 2 of the selection process takes place next week and then the successful candidate goes to the glasshouse for confirmation by the great unwashed before taking up post ASAP.

If you look to the left of the road ahead - you'll see a fence. That's where I am currently sitting:E:E:E

[tigerfish]

TC,

That's good enough for me! You know that I always tended to respect your judgement from a professional point of view, - & that remains!

My only perspective is as always, that of, "What is right for the service". However I have always recognised that without a good and loyal pilots we would be going no where, and for that reason I needed to check that you were still firmly on that somewhat uncomfortable fence!

Very rocky and difficult times lay ahead, and I do believe that for a variety of reasons the current leaders are fatally flawed. - Their judgement rightly questioned!

I hope and believe that with better and more experienced people at the helm of our ship, we may yet prevail.

Regards and a Happy & peaceful Christmas to all Ppruners!

Tigerfish

Old Grumpy is a bit happier tonight!;)

[SilsoeSid]

Police to keep watch on Wirral schools over Christmas holiday (From Wirral Globe) (http://www.wirralglobe.co.uk/news/9427746.Police_to_keep_watch_on_Wirral_schools_over_Christma s_holiday/)

POLICE are carrying out high-visibility patrols of school and college premises across Wirral during the Christmas holidays.

It is part of a bid to cut down on incidents of burglary, arson or criminal damage.

The police helicopter will also keep an eye on buildings during routine flights.

If only Merseyside had their own helicopter, those routine flights would occur more often providing a reliable and reasssuring service to the public!

[SilsoeSid]

Routine flight!!

As routine as Devon and Cornwall doing a routine flight over Taunton...Birmingham over Derby... or West Yorkshire over Manchester etc.

Remember, it's not about cost cutting but providing a more effective service :rollieyes:

[Digital flight deck]

Do you mean effective or efficient? Then we start to delve into definitions and political vernacular.

[SilsoeSid]

Things have come to a pretty pass,
Our romance is growing flat,
For you like this and the other
While I go for this and that.
Goodness knows what the end will be;
Oh, I don't know where I'm at...
It looks as if we two will never be one,
Something must be done.

You say eether and I say eyether,
You say neether and I say nyther;
Eether, eyether, neether, nyther,
Let's call the whole thing off!
You like potato and I like potahto,
You like tomato and I like tomahto;
Potato, potahto, tomato, tomahto!
Let's call the whole thing off!
But oh! If we call the whole thing off,
Then we must part.
And oh! If we ever part,
Then that might break my heart!
So, if you like pajamas and I like pajahmas,
I'll wear pajamas and give up pajahmas.
For we know we need each other,
So we better call the calling off off.
Let's call the whole thing off!


Fred & Ginger - "Let's Call The Whole Thing Off"

[MightyGem]

If only Merseyside had their own helicopter, those routine flights would occur more often providing a reliable and reasssuring service to the public!
Yes, we used to do it regularly during the summer hols. :(

[Art of flight]

Can't remember a time when any of the police forces I've flown for have been able to afford 'routine flying'. I do see a lot of it going on with a big yellow helicopter also owned by the tax payers, but i'm not complaining as they saved my a$$ after an accident many years ago!

[Coconutty]

Can't remember a time when any of the police forces I've flown for have been able to afford 'routine flying'.What do you define as "routine flying" ?

What do you do AFTER completing each task - fly straight back to base ?

It doesn't take much work for crime patterns / trends / hotpsots etc. to be analysed and details either provided to,
or compiled within an ASU, so that "Routine (targetted) Patrols" can be conducted in those areas, prior to returning to base :ok:

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[Art of flight]

If routine flying is being touted as patrolling hotspots. I've never worked at a unit that has money/flying hours for that sort of activity, we do carry out 'secondary' TASKING such as photo/hydro on the back of callouts, perhaps that's 'routine'?

Not saying routine patrolling is any way a waste of money, just probably not an option for units that have limited flying hours to cover large rural areas. I seem to remember some years ago a very succesfull patrolling trial in South Yorks/Sheffield, but I also remember it wasn't continued beyond the trial due to the cost.....

[Coconutty]

Point taken about rural areas, and that conducting "Routine patrols" after completing a task may apply more to built up urban areas,
but even so - crews need to be aware of what's happening on their "patch" to be able to do something about it......

e.g. ( Standby by with eggs prepped and ready to be sucked ! ) .....
If there's regular metal theft ( or whatever ) taking place on a stretch of motorway ( or wherever ) within your area,
and you don't know about it, then you're unlikely to swing the camera over that area if you should happen to complete a task nearby.

It's quite possible that any offenders present at that location know you're about,
and may wait for you to get back to base before continuing with their crime,
and that by the time you the get called out to the scene ( if at all ) it's too late.

The point I'm making is that the transit time from end of task back to base,
( which can cover a considerable distance according to the 20 minute crayon circle proposals ),
could, and IMHO should, be better utilised by pro-actively and routinely patrolling such areas during that time.

Doing so will undoubtedly result in the apprehension of more offenders and / or a reduction in the number of offences committed,
with very little additional flying time incurred. ( Possibly LESS flying time when offenders are caught and there is a reduction in the number of offences committed ! )

Call it "Routine Flying", call it "Routine Patrolling", it matters not -
the aircraft will be Routinely used to maximum effect and efficiency :ok:

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[Art of flight]

Eggs sucked!

we're both doing the same things, we just call it secondary tasking and you call it routine. Matters not, we're all striving to squeeze the last drop of effectiveness out of the limited flying time available. My original point was that we don't launch as a matter of routine patrol as we don't have the funds or a large enough city nearby, having said that my last 3 nights flying were quite typical at 5hrs 5mins, 4hrs 30mins and 4hrs 15mins, not bad considering some lost hours due to poor wx!

Safe flying;)

[AerialBiff]

Drawn into the mire with the thread name, but having read 108 pages it appears nobody knows what is going on, I strongly recomend the threads name be amended to }

UK Police helicopter budget cuts speculation.


Of note is MP5s comments regarding single helicopter operation across the region, he appears well briefed.

[timex]

But at least they are sorting out the fitness tests for the Observers...:bored:

[jayteeto]

We used to 'mooch' about at the end of a task over Liverpool. If you were selective on the areas, it was like shooting fish in a barrel. Stolen cars razzing was a favourite. HVP can work if it is linked with up to date intelligence.

[SilsoeSid]

But at least they are sorting out the fitness tests for the Observers...


Glad to see that pilots are at last being recognised as fit and healthy individuals, achieving and maintaining their physical appearance and performance at high levels.

Just 2 questions I would like to ask,
1. Is there a PT workgroup that I can be a part of ?
2. Where did all those Cadburys Roses go?
3. Where did I leave my specs?

SS
:ok:

[Savoia]

North Midlands pleased with rotary performance

The North Midlands Helicopter Support Unit, which is jointly owned by Derbyshire Constabulary and Nottinghamshire Police, released figures this morning showing that, countywide, police helicopter crews helped to find 214 crime suspects in Derbyshire between January 1st and December 1st 2011. During the same period, the crews searched for 126 missing people, found 26 stolen or suspect vehicles and airlifted three casualties to hospital.


http://www.chesterfieldpost.co.uk/public_services/police_news/images/police_000000078_1.jpg

The North Midlands Helicopter Support Unit is based at Derbyshire Constabulary headquarters in Ripley, carrying out vital work to help officers on the ground to search for suspects, find missing people and track stolen vehicles. In Derbyshire alone, the helicopter spent 283 hours in the air dealing with incidents such as these.

John Jameson, North Midlands Helicopter Support Unit Executive Officer, said: "The helicopter brings a dimension to policing which can't be achieved by conventional means. Thanks to the crews, many suspects were caught who may have evaded capture if the helicopter had not attended an incident.

"In April, we will see the creation of a National Police Air Service. The police helicopter will continue to operate from Ripley and a relief helicopter will be available when the regular aircraft is off-line. With economies of scale that such a service will bring and with the nearest helicopter attending any incident, Derbyshire should see an even more effective service at a reduced cost."

In Chesterfield, one incident in which the helicopter proved crucial occurred on August 11th when a man in Newbold was robbed by two youths. The helicopter crew were called in to search some playing fields where the suspects were seen to run, and soon found the youths. Officers were directed to them, but they ran in opposite directions as they were approached. The crew were able to monitor both suspects, guiding officers to them and they were subsequently arrested.

The Chesterfield Post - Police News (http://www.chesterfieldpost.co.uk/public_services/police_news/police_00000302.html)

[Senior Pilot]

A long running and informative thread, but the time has come to move to a new one: UK NPAS discussion (http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/473735-uk-npas-discussion-new-thread.html) :ok: