UK Police helicopter budget cuts

[SilsoeSid]

Lets not get hung up about fast response times, urgency and 'special operations' here. Any urgent job depends on effective C3I and we aren't going to be launching blindly into the wild blue.

At the moment we need to concentrate on getting our normal roles right in the developing system which will happen in one form or another. No matter what we think or say here, things will change whether we like them or not.

It's all red herring stuff this firearms scenario anyway isn't it.
Yes we will all do what is needed, when needed with what we have at the time. For example, the ac may well be full of fuel, the firearms guys may well be on the other side of the county/region, the guys you had at training 5 months ago may be on leave and it's the other shift that are waiting for you, or already en-route to the pick up point!
Improvise, adapt and overcome all iaw PAOM.

Anyone know how much kit a firearms guy carries? What does it all weigh? What about the grab bag and ballistic shield?
I do, I asked first hand this afternoon!
What will you use, despatchers harness or their own working at height harness? ;)



It has been said; "too few a/c have too far to travel and are spread too thinly to be effective."
However if ac are moved closer to the areas of higher crime, or stay where they are purely because they are closer, then surely they will be more effective. After all, how can we predict when the next job will be? Past figures, local knowledge maybe, which is why some units are now staying where they are!

We cannot predicy Mr Lone Wolf going on a rampage in the middle of nowhere where there has never been a crime before....besides, whatever happens, wherever it happens, most of it will be over after the first 5 minutes, while we are listening to it cracking off on the radios.

In reality what will happen?
IMHO, it will be launch the alert 5 downlink ac :ok:

[morris1]

People arent against change.
If the money has run out than fair enough.

Personally I find it insulting to peoples intelligence that a simple cost cutting exercise is dressed up as better service.

Frankly I would respect those in the driving seat much more if they just put their hand up and said "we need to cut costs, we cant afford all the a/c, we will provide a service that is different to the one as it is now, and some people wont get an aircraft when previously they have had one.."

What is wrong with that?, its merely the truth of the situation, as proposed.!

But to stand up and say we can provide a BETTER service with a third less resources than we now have is the stuff of disney..

In 2 years time ask the people and cops of Liverpool and Sheffield how much better their ASU provision is..!

[SilsoeSid]

Sorry Morris, I was doing that last post while you posted.


so EVERYTHING we have done in the past has been wasteful not very coordinated..?
I don't think I said that, but if we are able to make considerable savings without the NPAS changes as has been muted, something must have been not quite right!

Have you seen the circles on maps where south yorks are being removed..?
And deployment decisions will not be made locally,

I have indeed and the North West circles also still baffle me !
The deployment side of things hasn't really been confirmed yet has it, so you can't really say that.

I can tell you now that we will rarely if ever be within 20 mins of their main current operating area, neither will the adjoining a/c surrounding it.
Not really based on any facts yet though is it?
Besides, don't you wonder why the ac or facilities haven't actually been removed yet?

But your wrong about the 20 min circles anyway, because the ones drawn on the maps from NPAS are indeed from the bases that remain.
What I am saying about the 20 min reaction time circles is that if the ac is at base, the stationary circles on the map are fixed. When the ac is in the air, the circle moves with them. Therefore with an airborne aircraft some areas will indeed get better coverage!

We will end up turning up too little, too late, to be effective.
We will however have nice long transit times to take in the scenary..

This is becoming to be a bit of a myth, especially when things are put into practise. Closest ac takes the job works, you can't predict where the job will be, but you can have a good guess where it might be.

Central despatch and tasking will take all local decision making out of the hands of individual units.

Deployments are to be controlled centrally (hence the "national" bit of the name and the hunt for a host force plus the administritive duties).

I think you'll find there will be a bit of, 'we are now deploying to...' going on. That whole point of everything being totally controlled centrally is another myth started at the beginning of this whole process. Things have moved on from there, local radios, computers and mobiles won't be removed and the picture painted earlier of an ops room with nothing more than a silent telephone and a crew waiting for it to ring is so old hat now!


We are about to become the PCSO's of the sky.. nice to see around but cock all use

Well, I would put it to you that most of us in the Air Ops business wouldn't consider ourselves as 'cock all use' as you put it. That is totally an attitude some will try and nurture in their unit as the self appointed 'union member' that would then eventually bring the unit and everyone in it down :=



Problem is that I can see where you are coming from and I can also see you allowing your shift to think along the lines of, 'Lets not rush, it will all be over by the time we get there'.
As sure as eggs is eggs, with that train of thought...it will be!
We will all gradually be closed down and some of you will smugly say to yourselves, 'Told you so'.
You would have got your desired result, only because you made it so!

[SilsoeSid]

Morris, I totally agree with your last post. :ok:

In 2 years time ask the people and cops of Liverpool and Sheffield how much better their ASU provision is..!

Surely though in the meantime, we have to do what we can to support them as best we can. I know we will be round these parts.

[Phil Space]

I see the autocrat in charge of Cleveland Police and his deputy have been arrested!
BBC News - Cleveland Police Chief Constable Sean Price suspended (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tees-14386361)

A busy place for a chopper in the past.

What have you got to say about that Silsoe?

[B.U.D.G.I.E]

The problem is the police always make it work. Officers have to much pride to make it fail cause you didn't want the scrotes taking the P. From the lack of officers on the ground to routinely breaching the policy on taking prisoners to custody with an escorting officer. Truth is the future is a lack of bobbies on the street is leading to a lack if jobs for air support. If there is no one out there to chase the scum there us no need for air support. Maybe NPAS have an idea about what's coming so it will work. Don't make the job losses any easier to take.

[morris1]

'Lets not rush, it will all be over by the time we get there'.

Sorry but your very, very wide of the mark there. Ive been a cop for 23 years and in Air Support for more than ten. My job is to support colleagues on the ground who rely on us to get results where ground resources cant. My commitment to it and that of my colleagues is will remain despite the obstacles put in place by people who know very little about the work. Now in my third decade of police work Ive seen many daft ideas come and go. I wish you luck with the rose tinted future your looking at.

safe flying
good hunting

morris1 signing off...

[SilsoeSid]

Before you go Morris, under the new plans contrary to this threads SoP, there will be better services and efficiencies, for some straight away, for others later.

Yes there will clearly need to be a lot of tweeking here and there, even so far as the possible re-birth of some units ;) and we all know this wasn't introduced in the best of ways.

Under the 'borderless', 'nearest aircraft goes to task', way of working, (call it the NPAS plan if you will), some, not all, parts of the country will actually be seeing a helicopter more often... if it is needed.

From personal experience, living in a town with a population of 25,500+, tourist visitors annually in the region of 4 million, a river and canal system, huge areas of countryside and host to many major festivals, we hardly saw the force helicopter, maybe as we are quite a way (20 mins flying?) from the ASU base or maybe because the jobs simply weren't there. Yes it would occasionally be in the area, but possibly not as often or as quickly as local officers would like.

Under the new system, instead of having the 'local helicopter' more than 30 miles away, it is now half that distance. Surely that is more efficient and is providing a better service locally at a regional level. (We aren't national yet!)



p.s. SoP does not stand for 'Statement of the Oldest Person'!

[B.U.D.G.I.E]

Under the new system, instead of having the 'local helicopter' more than 30 miles away, it is now half that distance. Surely that is more efficient and is providing a better service locally at a regional level. (We aren't national yet!)

Which kind if only works if you live in a big city. What about the rural areas losing out.

[SilsoeSid]

Which kind if only works if you live in a big city. What about the rural areas losing out.

As I do not live in a big city, but a town in a rural area as my last post says, that would suggest that it does work, doesn't it !
:rolleyes:

[zorab64]

Morris - you make a very valid point in your post (#1752), that of HONESTY. It the NPAS team had come out with some honest admissions in the first place, change would be more willingly accomodated, I'm sure. As it is, everybody's been sold spin (read bo**ocks) that the new service will be more effective/efficient than the old one, when "those who do" all know that we're likely to be significantly less efffective, for a lot of the time. :ugh:

It's frustrating, but it's part of what most of us will be getting on with. There are still likely to be some sleepy hollows, but one would hope they're now waking up a bit to the realisation that some professional re-alignment may be needed to provide the best service to the bobbies on the ground.

Good luck everyone! :eek:

[SilsoeSid]

Morris hit it on the head with the post about honesty and of course that along with all the secrecy and lack of passage of information, has put everyones back up. Restricting themselves to only answering questions posed on POLKA and no initial papers turning up on that day in October on topics such as pilotage/manning, maintainance, procurement etc etc hasn't helped one iota. ('scuse the pun ;) )


Zorab, I must disagree with your line of;
...when "those who do" all know that we're likely to be significantly less efffective, for a lot of the time.

Here for example, we are certainly providing a more effective service, as are our colleagues in the region.
For example, the force border is literally over the fence. Before, we could not do a job in the local village or surrounding areas as they were off our force area. I can assure you that it doesn't feel right when you are stood at your base watching a different force helicopter do a job just over the road. With the new operating practise, we are now able to go on those jobs, meaning the previous ac doesn't have to transit the 25 miles to get here and we are able to now just literally pop over the fence and get it done quickly and efficiently.

Another problem highlighted here on this thread, is that although some are quite happy to announce that NPAS in their eyes know nothing about Police Aviation, we seem to be ignoring the fact that some of, "those that do", don't seem to know about how other units operate in different regions.

[zorab64]

SS - of course, when you're based on the edge of the area/county you (used to only) Police, it makes complete sense, and is more efficient, to hop over the old border and provide a service to the "neighbours". It has always been an anathema to me that the NW region, especially, should have been so parochial in their operations in the past - it never made sense, just as it makes no sense for the Met aircraft, who are actually based in Essex, not to provide coverage to the immediate area they're actually based in. It's been mentioned before that it's a noticeable transit for the Essex aircraft to get to the very built-up area around Lippitts from their base, making many jobs less worthwhile than if they were picked up by the unit at their doorstep! :ugh:

What I was saying (and I'm personally very aware of how many other units operate) is that there will be many units, especially rural ones who might be based more centrally in their county or current operating area, who will be less effective, due to the significant increase in transit times around their vastly enlarged new areas. There was a post a little while ago by StandbyX2 demonstrating exactly the problem - flying from pillar to post, but achieving nothing! :ugh:

[PANews]

Taking up [cherry-picking] a tiny part of the last SS post....

.... we seem to be ignoring the fact that some of, "those that do", don't seem to know about how other units operate in different regions.....

I must say there is still an inbuilt problem with UK police getting involved in just what 'others' do [and that is not air support in isolation] and meeting colleagues in various forums. The IPA was always thinly supported and the User Groups were always us and them without an apparent mix. UEO's meetings were 'cross border' but one rank strata only, joining 'open' police aviation organisations like ALEA was seen as largely for nerds and PACE requires the secret wearing of a pinny in a darkened room doesn't it? Other 'open' forums were ignored because the potential attendee was held back by the in-built police 'no-no' of having to spend a tenner getting there in their own time [even if the day and the night in the bar that followed was totally free].

It all weakened the operational capability, often a need to re-invent the wheel time and time again, and when it came to defending their corner [against NPAS for instance] because no-one knew the people next door sufficiently well enough to have a common attitude it was a fighting retreat rather than some tactical advance.

An Inbred inability to talk cross border even when given chance after chance has led to there being a lack of even discussing the options sensibly. That of course ignores the role of Pprune where you can talk [write] to your hearts content but you simply have to guess who the audience may be rather than argue face to face.

[SilsoeSid]

Slight thread side-step, but as I was reading this months PA News I wondered how many air ambulance covered England and Wales.

The Association of Air Ambulances in the UK (http://www.airambulanceassociation.co.uk/amazing_facts.php) led me to find there are 30, funnily enough more than the number of Police Helicopters planned under NPAS.

How is it that charity run organisations can operate so many ac on an independant basis? I asked myself. Surely if every one of them came together under one large umbrella, and procurement of every kind was controlled centrally, there would be amazing savings to be made.

After all they aren't that different to us, are they? In the majority the same type of ac, same reactive type of work, bases located as best as can be predicted 'where the work is' and no telling where the next 'big job' will be.


According to the various indivuidual air ambulance websites, it costs around £2 million a year to run the unit for a year. If they could collectively save £15 million a year as in the NPS plan, they would be saving the equivelant of the yearly costs to run 7.5 air ambulance helicopters. Instantly that is 25% savings nationally for charity based operators.

If the NPAS type of planning and readjustment is such a cost saver, why aren't the air ambulances, who are forever chasing donations for 'operating cash', doing the same thing?


Someone has it wrong...don't they?

[PANews]

SS

The problem is that they cannot talk to each other either... clear signs of back biting from time to time. They are of course very much seperate entities with the very seperate identities that help them drum up their money and even the organisations they created themselves to assist with interaction seem to come and go with the wind, NAAS, CHAS ..... AAA...

The last election of their Chairman was a clear demonstration that they do not yet speak with one voice.... and may never do. They could do with a strong figure that is in post for more than the current 12 months... if they can decide on one.

Your comment about numbers highlights that the needs of the ambulance fraternity are met with five very different types [105, 135, 109, 365, 902 & 117 if they come back] flying a fairly low number of hours each dealing with about 0.05% of the daily clinical needs. So not that critical.

That is quite different from the proposed 1,700 hours each police [of potentially similar make/source] helicopters.... but I wonder whether that guessed at figure of 0.05% also relates in some way to the actual percentage number of police air operations undertaken if compared with the total number of reported incidents each day?

[Ye Olde Pilot]

The UK Air Ambulance model mirrors the Australian Flying Doctor in many respects. Distance is critical for anyone needing major surgery.
Wales/Scotland etc warrant helicopter support for Medevac.

Poor roads and distance makes the helicopter an ideal and cost effective method of saving lives.

The positive reality tv shows add to the public perception of the good work done by the Air Ambulance network.

I can not see Joe Public putting money in a charity box for a police helicopter to chase a few scally's on a council estate in Liverpool.:ok:

[SilsoeSid]

That'll be a big WHOOSH !!! over the head then ;)

[Art of flight]

PANews #1763

Spot on! Thought after 24 years with the forces I was leaving behind a tribal self serving organisation, then I started police flying......

Individual county based forces make the Armed forces seem positively enlightened. I've actually witnessed neighbouring forces buy different aircraft rather than take advice from those nearest them. On a good day I hear open hostility towards the way consortium partners manage their flying. The biggest laugh lately is the individual CCs congratulating themselves on comming up with plans to improve policing despite the cuts but still not seeing the bigger picture beyond their own force area. They've been dragged kicking and screaming to 'collaborate' with a neighbouring force to save money.

Don't get me wrong here, I love the actual task of police flying at the coal face, just think the whole county based structure is 30 years out of date and will remain so whilst each new CC can completely change everything every 3 years without batting an eyelid at what's going on over the fence.

I'm nailing my colours to the NPAS mast here before the economy gets worse and CCs start giving up their air support on an individual basis. Then we'd be looking at salvaging the scraps to form the 9 aircraft plan!

[Blue Thunder]

Well said Art of Flight. :D

[Wagging Finger]

Yes, very well said Art.:D:D

[Fortyodd2]

Art of Flight has made a very good point. The problem is made worse by the fact that no senior police officer is going to support the idea of merging or collaboration if it increases the chances of seeing their own career path disappearing. If 2 forces combine, that's one fewer CC, DCC and who knows how many ACCs jobs disappearing. Turkeys, even high ranking ones, are not going to be voting for Christmas.

Meanwhile, on the subject of Turkeys: BBC News - Anger at Nottinghamshire police chiefs pay rise proposals (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-nottinghamshire-14413079)

Wonder what colour the sky is on her planet? :ugh: At least her deputy has shown some grasp of the concept of leadership.

[Ye Olde Pilot]

Just wondering how society managed in the 1960's,70's and 80's when there was no police aviation.

Those were the days of police houses in villages with a resident copper on a bike or motorbike.No stab vests or pepper spray or a plod looking like something out of a US movie.

I'm old enough to remember when you could walk down Kensington High St or Whitehall without the noise of a police helicopter overhead.

We also managed without the high paid Guardian newspaper 'non jobs' such as community play leaders or lesbian outreach workers.

This country is in a financial mess.

Part of the cutbacks has to be a re-assessment of what police aviation units are in place for.

[Wagging Finger]

Just wondering how society managed in the 1960's,70's and 80's when there was no police aviation.
Wouldn't that be nice, and Dixon of Dock green could watch over us all, I do think that officers have lost touch with how to deal with an incident without an aircraft present and there is a lot of 'tick box' mentality out there, however, in the 'good old days' there was less Robbery, pursuits, missing persons and more Officers out on the ground to deal with them.

Sadly times have moved on and we have had to all move with them.

It would be nice if Police Aviation didn't exist and NPAS could create it from fresh. Sadly they are left to deal with the muddle that Art of Flight so correctly alludes to.:ugh:

I too will nail my colours to the NPAS mast. I don't want to be left without a chair when the music stops, sadly some will be.:{

:=

[Blue Thunder]

I too agree with the NPAS idea, but I bet they would save a lot more money if someone in the home office made the decision to buy all police vehicles centrally, and do away with the many force fleet managers and other hangars on who are buying flash Evo's and top of range X5's.
Give the boys who want a 4x4 a basic landrover or ford, whats all this about floating about in a top spec BMW X5?

Think of the millions they would save at a stroke of a pen. They would probably be able to keep all the helicopters with all the money left over.

[SilsoeSid]

Yes, well said Art of Flight, however I'm sure I've heard/read that somewhere here earlier ;) Oh well !

Latest news on our Lords and Masters !

Police efficiency agency 'has £6.5m credit card bill'

A credit card bill of £6.5m was run up by staff at a quango tasked with making police forces in England and Wales more efficient, disclosures after a freedom of information request have revealed.

The National Police Improvement Agency (NPIA) incurred the costs in the financial years 2008-9 and 2009-10.

Spending on commemorative coins and karaoke equipment was revealed.


Ministers plan to phase out the quango, which was set up in 2007 to help forces in England and Wales to save money.

Its functions will be transferred elsewhere.

Much of the costs by staff at the quango were incurred as a result of train or airline tickets and hotel accommodation for staff who travelled on business.


However, a taxi bill of nearly £100,000 has been revealed along with expenditure on a diverse range of items including £828 on judo apparatus, £105 on pottery, £55 on karaoke equipment - and £28 on lingerie.

The government is reviewing the use of so called "procurement cards" in Whitehall.

It plans to publish all expenditure incurred on them above £500 from next month.


He said the agency would deliver £30m savings in the current financial year, adding that it delivered £54.5m savings in the previous year.

BBC News - Police efficiency agency 'has £6.5m credit card bill' (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14434417)


Do we need to 'Watch this Space' ?

[Art of flight]

Sounds like at least a few here realise the problem with the way things currently work, I was only putting a current 'insider' view on PANews post and with credit to SS and others previous posts trying to focus on why the current NPAS proposal is in my view the best outcome given the cuts.

Oddly enough I am a turkey voting for Christmas as I'm employed by a consortium that has to lose pilots by next year and my current role won't exist...............:hmm:

[malreeves]

Coming to this arguement a bit late but...

Reading myself in to a previous quote....

"Under the new system, instead of having the 'local helicopter' more than 30 miles away, it is now half that distance. Surely that is more efficient and is providing a better service locally at a regional level. (We aren't national yet!)"

NPAS have played a blinder here in Sheffield under that premis! 1,200 hrs a year, 54% of jobs three minutes flying time away, the remainder spread over (in order) Rotherham, Doncaster and Barnsley. All now to be covered by one helicopter that isn't even in our region, another helicopter that can't reach Sheffield in less than 25 mins from a standing start and the last resource from the second busiest ASU in the country. Good thinking.

My money would be on binning the NPIA input to NPAS and getting CC Marshal to listen to the operators rather than an accountant.

Yours

Bitter and twisted fo Sheffield

[Fortyodd2]

Mal,
I think you mean NPAS have played a blind - as in didn't look or, for that matter, listen. As for CC Marshall listening to anyone who actually knows what they are talking about.........:ugh:

[B.U.D.G.I.E]

Who got the £28 posh pants then

[PANews]

You have probably already noticed this, but for the sake of completeness in this thread....

The Wiltshire Air Ambulance Appeal should become an independent charity during September after the Great Western Ambulance Service (GWAS) agreed to give up its sole trusteeship of the appeal.

A new charity, the Wiltshire Air Ambulance Charitable Trust, will be set up with a new bank account for the acceptance of donations. The new charity will have to increase fundraising from the current level of £750,000 a year to £2M to cover the expected cost of a stand-alone air ambulance helicopter from 2015.

The £1.2M reserves in the Wiltshire Air Ambulance Appeal will be frozen and set aside for GWAS to use to pay the ambulance service's part of the contract with Wiltshire Police for the joint helicopter/air ambulance through to December 2014.

[Coconutty]

NPAS and PANTS - sums it up nicely :p

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[SilsoeSid]

Interesting breaking news !

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g11/silsoesid/DSCF025320.jpg

[SilsoeSid]

Nice one whitehead06 :ok:

A lot of descision makers need to re-think what they may be leading us into.
Did I say leading? Perhaps it should be led!

Thin Blue Line :(

BBC confirm Police station in Brum under attack and on fire now.
Anyway, good job Cobra are waiting til the morning to meet up over coffee and Danishes.

Maybe they will decide not to prosecute officers if they simply push someone over in future !

[Coconutty]

So the Met call in additional Air Support from Surrey & Sussex,
presumably because the 3 aircraft they have are either not all available,
or the demand exceeds the capacity they can provide,
but what then happens to the Air Support in Surrey & Sussex ?

We've seen last night how this latest excuse for rioting and looting has spread across the Country
to Birmingham, Liverpool, Nottingham and Bristol,
and while the Met & Birmingham have 24 Hr Air Support cover, what about the rest ?

It's not just Air Support though - the TV footage showed Police Officers from at least one other Police Force
helping West Midlands Police on the streets of Handsworth, which is a standard "Mutual Aid" practice these days -
when such demands on Policing appear at short notice, but what would have happened in the other force area,
where resources are now even more depleted due to supplying Mutual Aid to Birmingham,
and who don't have their own 24 hrs Air Support Unit - if it had kicked off in their force area too ?

Maybe it's time for the Big Boys to have a rethink on Police Budget cuts until they are CERTAIN
that the limited resources left can cope with the demands of today's criminal society :uhoh:

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[PANews]

Woke at 6am this morning to a towering column of smoke from the burning SONY warehouse by the M25. I knew it was there because just before midnight my family thoughtfully told me (just as I was on the verge of sleep.....!) There it was etched against the clear night sky with signs of a red glow in the billowing column.

Here we are more than 10 hours later and the column of jet black smoke is still rising. I guess they will get there and stop it before tea time...... It is amazing how much soot a pile of plastic gizmo's can pollute the air with. SONY goods will be gold dust for a while, though there may be some on the 'alternative' market........

So this is where soft policing, soft education/government etc etc and too much paperwork has got us.

And those who predicted trouble after the Tottenham shooting were put down as scaremongering, just as the Government - ably assisted by the NPAS team - have dismissed the potential threat to public order from permanently removing helicopters from the resources. Now is a time when even those retired EC135T1's might just fill a gap [in daylight] a cheap resource like the Green Goddess fire engines that no-one wanted and would ever need.

Now is a time for street policing not the 'war games' of the leaders with a BA [Hons] in Egyptology.

The biggest UK police force ran out of helicopters yesterday and had to call in others, next year there will be no 'others' to call in.

The world must be laughing.

[Coconutty]

The world must be laughing.

Disagree with you there Brynn.....

The CRIMINALS are laughing. :ugh:

Coconutty.

[Senior Pilot]

From today's Telegraph:

09.39 James Clark, the former Ministry of Defence head of press, tweets that the RAF may be drafted in to support police operations

I understand the Met is exploring the poss of having military 'copters from RAF Benson on standby to support their 3 observation aircraft
less than a minute ago via web Favorite Retweet Reply
James Clark
MotoClark

[Wagging Finger]

The SAR birds have all the kit fitted and there are some 'other' Military birds that have all the relevant kit:suspect::suspect:

Heres to another fun night. All the best to the other guys and gals working tonight, on the ground and above it.:D:D

:=

[jayteeto]

Isn't the Merseyside 135T2 sitting in the hangar ready to fly??????????

That would be great, XM11 back in the air.........

[Helinut]

Being able to talk/listen on one talkgroup (within the limited number available on a single mobile handset in a cradle) is NOT the same as the normal police fit. To play the full police role you need the full kit, focussed on the area you are operating over.

[Ye Olde Pilot]

Silsoe posted the BBC chopper link to the riots but Sky also have brought live pictures of unfolding events.

Just like 9/11 it appears the news media are way ahead of what is happening.

I hope the Met helicopters have tracked some of these criminals.

It appears tweets and messaging have played a part in the terrible scenes we have seen unfolding.

Maybe time to get some more up to date tracking kit on board police helicopters.

Have any of the little used choppers in the rural areas been drafted in?

[SilsoeSid]

Have any of the little used choppers in the rural areas been drafted in?

I think they will be tucked up in their beds while all this is going on, even if there were enough crews around with no ot being paid due to cutbacks!

[PANews]

In view of the earlier comment about compatibility.....

To play the full police role you need the full kit, focussed on the area you are operating over.

Does that mean the NPAS craft will all have to be tweaked to a common standard to be truly National or is it simply the flick of a switch for the role equipped airframes to comply with local needs?

I am aware there is a problem with the downlink [ECS or not ECS].

[Fortyodd2]

"I am aware there is a problem with the downlink [ECS or not ECS]".

What about the "those who have not gone digital because they didn't want to spend the money on it and now can't receive any pictures from any of the regional mutual support aircraft" issue?

[Coconutty]

What about the "Those that HAVE invested and gone digital, maybe needing completely new kit that will work Nationally" ?

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[PANews]

All these [and many many more] are the hidden costs of setting up NPAS that will erode the so called savings promised.

[Helinut]

I was just pointing out gently that police helicopters have 4 separate Airwave radios, and that in complicated places like London you need all 4 to maintain comms in a command/control type job (plus the ATC comms). Unless it has changed, most of the mil helicopters have only one airwave radio.

The other issue is that Airwave is not like a "normal" radio. It can only communicate on the talk groups that it is "filled with". There is a distinctly finite limit to the number of talk groups that any one airwave set can be filled with.

Those who have already been engaging in cross border operations know there are limitations to the kit wrt comms and mapping. It is mainly the storage capacity of the fitted equipment. This is before you take any account of such soft but important things like crew knowledge.

[Senior Pilot]

Sid, have you been using The Force again :p

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lppgowbwg41r1qajlo1_500.png

[SilsoeSid]

I heard my local shopping centre was going to be attacked, so went out to show that decent people (I have my moments ;) ) are against the actions of these scum.

Unfortunately I recently e-bayed my Batman outfit, but managed to find in the attic an old Darth Vader kit. Just glad it still fitted.

Fortunately nothing cracked off, however as my Vader kit was confiscated, if something happens tonight all I have left is an old Pink Panther suit :ooh:


Do you reckon it will work? !!!!
http://i656.photobucket.com/albums/uu287/passenger5/pinkpanter08.jpg

The crooks never sleep and neither does Clouseau!

[PANews]

There seems to be very little leaking out of the police press offices about mutual aid working [or not] and even less [what is less than nothing?] coming out of NPAS sources about how well the mutual aid worked.

Now you would think that this was a perfect opportunity for air support in general and NPAS in particular to be crowing about how well a National resource worked under pressure.

There will have been problems of course and I do not expect anyone to be shouting too loud about the fact that the police forces surrounding London could not downlink their analogue images to a digital MP control centre, but every story can be turned into a silk purse if someone thinks about it....

Maybe I answered my own question. Think.

[Fortyodd2]

PAN,
perhaps it's not considered to be a major issue. After all, it's not as though London is hosting any major events in the near future................

[B.U.D.G.I.E]

i think you will find it was the mets fault for trying to do downlink on the cheap. Which considering the amount they had to spend seems a little daft.

[PANews]

But it seems the Met had belt and braces all the time and despite the doom-mongers they can deal better with their neighbours than I had thought.

This is the police and of course if you buy something and then replace it with something new and potentially better there are no points given for taking out the old and throwing it away and if you sell it the money goes to the Home Office. Put it on the shelf, you never know when you might need it!

So, yes they can do digital, but at the flick of a switch the old analogue is there too..... Surrey and Sussex are analogue.

It surprised me.

And of course the next question is how can Surrey trade downlink with Thames Valley? Both systems are made by ECS...... but.....

So next year NPAS has a lot of work to do to enable its fleet of spares to be able to fly here and there filling in..... radios..... downlinks..... maps.... none of them fit too well. This side of 2015 I cannot see a spare NPAS aircraft normally based in the north west being sent down to Sussex as a spare wholly upon its inability to talk to anyone, find its way or send them images!

The three spare aircraft are going to have to be regionalised simply to give them a chance operate meaningfully. No point installing a full street map of Darlington in an aircraft flying over Bournemouth 95% of the time.

So spare aircraft could be as rare as hens teeth!

:}

[Wagging Finger]

Or we could go back to the good old days, dust off the real maps and try out our nav skills!

Improvise, adapt, overcome

[PANews]

And I think you will find that the B.U.D.G.I.E. dig at the Met downlink was overcome by them being willing to ......Improvise, adapt, overcome ....

They can, they have.

If they can it will be easy for others to follow - assuming the money is there.

[RotaryWingB2]

This side of 2015 I cannot see a spare NPAS aircraft normally based in the north west being sent down to Sussex as a spare wholly upon its inability to talk to anyone, find its way or send them images!

Except most forces now have, or have always had national maps, and if they don't, it's a fairly simple job to have them upgraded.

With regards to the downlink, if you want to get really technical, there is two different type of analogue systems.

Radios will not be too much of a problem, if at all.

I'm pro-nationalisation, but anti the method with which it's being introduced.

Plus I hate being lied to. (Less aircraft/better service)

[B.U.D.G.I.E]

It was not a dig just a statement of opinion. ECS kit was on the market when they had there 145's but it did seem a little odd when it was obvious that the rest of the uk that was going digital and ECS were in the frame for the contract. Yet they went with some one else which did not offer interoperability with other forces. Now there gonna be faced with a big bill if they want air support from outside of London.

[PANews]

Dig or not, this is all about the NPAS model [and it did not exist when they made that choice] - about having to be 'all the same' eventually.

Fragmented purchasing, a very real part of the current arrangement, is undertaken by every force except for the recent EC135P2 deliveries... you may recall many of the differences.... a handful of aircraft types.... North Wales uniquely having a set up that reversed the orbit everyone else did ...... different maps.... some analogue downlinks... some digital... different cameras.... mapping .... some buying leather jackets others not... it goes on and on...

Just look at the colour schemes.... and how many cried when they were forced into blue and yellow and how many 'got around it' by having a large lump of yellow or a small lump... checker squares on the tail.... a fin in yellow.... anything... They are all going to be the boring old same.

Well all that will [I think we all assume] go. But sorting the difference in short order will surely cost a great deal of money and eat into that claim of savings as sure as night follows day.

[J.A.F.O.]

sorting the difference in short order will surely cost a great deal of money

Who said that anyone was planning to do it in short order?

[mimma]

Hi,
I am doing my dissertation on Optica edgley. Can I meet any pilot who operated this optica or any police helicopter pilot? I just need to consult about payload and other considerations what the pilot really feel in optica.

Thank you
mimma

[Wagging Finger]

North Wales uniquely having a set up that reversed the orbit everyone else did

Not unique, there is at least one another out there that sits on the wrong side and orbits the wrong way, you know who you are:suspect::suspect:

[Digital flight deck]

Just like to return to the NPAS thing briefly. Are there any employment opportunities in this organisation, for non police types, and if so where are they advertised?

[Thomas coupling]

Digital: :eek: the aim of the "NPAS thing" is to reduce the service not increase it?? Every uniformed individual is/has been scrambling for a position on the "ARC" before the floods come.......
On the other hand.......you could be winding everyone up.........:D

[Digital flight deck]

Thomas sorry if you miss the point. The service may well get smaller, but a new organisation is rising from the ashes so the question still stands. If you do not know the answers to my questions so be it, but no it is not a wind up.

[Fortyodd2]

Digital,
One of the biggest issues facing NPAS is that so far, with 2 exceptions, none of those currently in the NPAS organisation has any real idea of what Police Aviation is, what it does, how it achieves it or what it is capable of - simply how much it costs. There are many people with many years and many thousands of flying hours experience in UK Police Aviation, pilots and observers, whose knowledge and advice has been completely ignored thus far as the priority here is not to produce a more effective or efficient service - simply a cheaper one.

At the age of 20, what is it that you think you can bring to the party that NPAS would be interested in??

[Digital flight deck]

A knowledge of growing mushrooms seems to qualify me. :ok: Seriously though, what I have or have not in the way of qualifications or experience is not the question, although at interview I am sure my advantages would come to the fore. I was just wondering what if any moves into setting up the back office staff have been made given the April 2012 as a start date. From what I have read there is very little of the substance required to run such an organisation in existence.

[B.U.D.G.I.E]

Central Regional News (ITV Central Tonight) - ITV Local (http://www.itv.com/central-west/125mph-driver-jailed58539/)


125 mph chase caught on police helicopter footage.

[Mr_G_Box]

There were a number of units that orbited to the left, a sadly reducing number, and then there are those that go round the wrong way!!! :ok:

[B.U.D.G.I.E]

However there are no advantages to a left hand orbit. Infact one unit has an SOP for a right hand orbit for pursuit situations. That just don't make sense.

[Coconutty]

In a pursuit situation there may be advantages in positioning the "bandit" vehicle on the left - e.g. When it becomes obscured by the building line,
but this can make it more challenging for the pilot to fly to, whereas with the bandit vehicle on the right, the pilot can see it and fly to it.
It's then the left seat Observer that can't physically see the bandit vehicle, but they don't need to, as they have the camera on it.

Similarly with orbiting, right hand orbits give the pilot a better view of what to fly to.

Not sure what any of that has to do with NPAS though, other than the cuts to left AND right hand orbits :uhoh:

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[Mr_G_Box]

Probably nothing but one of the left hand orbit units has been cut already!:sad:

[MightyGem]

Having just started having to orbit to the right after 15 years of going left, I can report the following.

I find myself getting too involved in what's going on on the ground outside my window, because there's only one bobby in the aircraft who can see what's going on down there, and I want to/am expected to help him out. Yes the other guy has the camera, but it's not the same. Turning left, there are two bobbies looking out, instead of one. The camera isn't required all the time.

The "Send Position" function that the newer a/c have with the map/camera is excellent when it works. Ours wasn't working the other night. The efforts of the rear right hand bobby trying to get the front left guy on the camera on to a target on the right just weren't working because the guy on the camera couldn't look out of the window and see what he was looking for. A quick re-position to put it on the left solved the problem.

I have to keep looking back the other way, to check instruments and the front screen to see what the camera is looking at in order to position the a/c accordingly. Turning left, I can see all that naturally.

Not had a pursuit yet, but that's probably the only situation that I can see that having it on my side would be better.

[Digital flight deck]

I wonder if the direction of orbit will influence NPAS to reconsider the units to be cut?

[Thomas coupling]

Mighty Gem: BZ. Coconutty: bolloc*s - you are talking rubbish.
Can the law be prosecuted for sinistromanual discrimination?:eek:

[MightyGem]

Mighty Gem: BZ. Coconutty: bolloc*s - you are talking rubbish.
Well, don't leave it there. Explain why.

[Mr_G_Box]

This thread is just going round in circles now! ;) OK I'll get my coat!

[Wagging Finger]

Whitehead, I think you need to take a step nearer the coffee jar too, In twenty odd years I have never seen Police staff made redundant, why do you think that is? Possibly because the service are having to make wholesale cuts amounting to nearly 20% per annum for the next four years.

We cannot bury our heads in the sand and take part in a blame culture for what has got us into this position.

So, perhaps we should all smell the coffee and spare a thought for the staff who are now looking for work out in the big world. Some of us may be joining them soon!!:sad:

[Digital flight deck]

So, perhaps we should all smell the coffee and spare a thought for the staff who are now looking for work out in the big world. Some of us may be joining them soon

Resignation to the outcome seems to be prevalent, with what cost to unit moral, safety and the general well being of those waiting for the chop. This whole process has not been handled too well in my opinion. I would like to think that as time moves on and things become clearer for those making decisions, more information will come out, and more importantly in a timely manner so that those who are affected can get their affairs in order.

[Eurocopper]

"This whole process has not been handled too well in my opinion"

What process?

Flattery indeed!

[Ian Corrigible]

Footage of shots being fired at WMPAOU's (http://www.west-midlands.police.uk/airops/) 135 during the recent UK riots (time index 1:05 on).

-CIkakrZl64

I/C

[PANews]

A couple of weeks ago I did what I am always accused of not doing.... I asked the powers that be [the police media units and the air support units] of those likely involved for information on their part in the so called 'Riots' [so who read the Riot Act then? - disturbances then....].

It was an open question - what happened and were any aviation lessons learned from the experience.

In fairness I got some useful replies and some others that were clearly an attempt to answer the unanswerable .

The vast majority though have yet to answer a properly inserted request for information about a newsworthy event - and this is a group who face [at least in part] oblivion or a return to the streets. It is increasing clear that the silent lot are actually sleep walking to NPAS. Even when given an opportunity to properly put their industry up there in a good light they do nothing. This is not the spectre of 3 weeks in a health farm this is safe legal self promotion and yet they do nothing, not even 'hang on I will get back to you if I can'.

Besides the police [media/ASU] I also contacted, ACPO and a well known figure in NPAS. The former was understandably 'lost' on the subject but at least conversed .... the latter is still very firmly [I]missing in action, perhaps because there are no grounds for sensible comment.

One that falls in between all of that was Cheshire.... they have put it to their Freedom of Information Unit..... a reply expected 'next month' ...... Er, excuse me chaps this is supposed to be NEWS not history!

[Final Flare]

Hello chaps and chapesses,

Again whilst trawling through endless rumours about NPAS, I happened across other interesting information. I wondered if anyone could shed a little light.

Apparently, the cost savings that NPAS have promised will not come into affect until 2018 (predicted) due to the massive costs of relocating some bases and building others. Up to that point individual units will have to contribute considerably more than earlier anticipated....... ????

Secondly Paragraph 17 of Staff transfers in the public sector, statement of practice states that TUPE may apply for transfers between local government and civil service departments and agencies. Is this applicable to directly employed personnel? Will they then get priority over subcontracted personnel?

I hope someone could spread some light as i am thoroughly confused......

[timex]

I hope someone could spread some light as i am thoroughly confused......

Join the club...:sad:

[Art of flight]

FF, Timex

First port of call should probably be your HR dept or line manager if directly employed, but until the details are worked out by NPAS of how many where and when, the HR bods in each force/contractor don't have much to go on. What we know is that the start date of 01/04/2012 will see at least one region formed and employed, so details from that will start to come through some time before then (not long).

[SilsoeSid]

Surely the pilots job is to keep the camera on the target isn't it ?

With the camera by my right boot, if I can see the target theres a good chance the camera will also be able to. Many a time in an urban pursuit the camera loses the vehicle, for example in traffic/at lights/behind buildings and acquires a different vehicle and only because it is visible by the pilot and the rear observer, who contrary to popular belief isn't always eyes out, are we able to talk the camera on again.


Coconutty has it on the nail as far as we operate and it works well.


MG;

I find myself getting too involved in what's going on on the ground outside my window,
As long as all you do is keep the camera on the target thats all you need to do. What else are you up to? Radios, commentary?

Turning left, there are two bobbies looking out, instead of one. The camera isn't required all the time.
Yes the camera isn't necessarily used all the time (99% though surely), however, in a search (ignoring the pilot and not using the camera) with a right hand rear crew you have a set of eyes looking out on each side of the aircraft. Strangely enough, at some units when looking for something, the pilot spots it a lot of the time before the observers. Maybe because he/she has to look out in order to position the aircraft and therefore isn't too focussed on on area, catching it in the peripheral vision.


The "Send Position" function that the newer a/c have with the map/camera is excellent when it works. Ours wasn't working the other night. The efforts of the rear right hand bobby trying to get the front left guy on the camera on to a target on the right just weren't working because the guy on the camera couldn't look out of the window and see what he was looking for. A quick re-position to put it on the left solved the problem.

We have the same technical problems, but not the crew ones.

I have to keep looking back the other way, to check instruments and the front screen to see what the camera is looking at in order to position the a/c accordingly. Turning left, I can see all that naturally.

Don't you find though that when looking over to the left, you look at the instruments but don't see? Doing it the other way, I make a conscious move of my head in order to look at the instruments, breaking off temporarily from the job on the ground to see what is happening in the ac. Surely that is a CRM type better way of operating.

Not had a pursuit yet, but that's probably the only situation that I can see that having it on my side would be better.

Aha! Once you do, it will all fall into place :ok:

[Digital flight deck]

Silsoe, surely the pilots job is to fly the aircraft and the camera operators job is to operate the camera?

[jayteeto]

The pilot can make the job very easy........... or very difficult.

[Fortyodd2]

"surely the pilots job is to fly the aircraft and the camera operators job is to operate the camera?"

Correct - but, in order to achieve the aim, they must communicate and work as a team. It is up to the pilot to put the camera where the operator needs it and, if the pilot can do that without being asked then so much the better.

[B.U.D.G.I.E]

First off i am thoroughly confused......

Do you work for npas :sad:

I believe that CRM has a massive part to play in air ops. The C of CRM is crew. So why is the pilot in some units feeling a little left out. It's part of your job to get involved thats why apart from OPC LPC's there are line checks for pilots as well as observers. Or have we forgot about that. :ok:

[MightyGem]

Surely the pilots job is to keep the camera on the target isn't it ?
Yes, and I can do a better job when turning left watching the front screen to see where the crosshairs are, coming to the hover or backing up for a item of interest, repositioning when I can see that the camera op wants to see around the back of a shed.

Having two bobbies on the left and turning left is more efficient. When searching using the Mk 1 Eyeball you have two people giving 100%, plus me giving what I can on the other side, just incase anything is going on out there.

Turning right with one bobby on my side, you have one giving 100%, me giving what I can and the other bobby looking out his side, just incase anything is going on out there. Plus the problems for the rear right bobby trying to talk the camera op onto the target when he can't say, "Look out the window, see the big red bus...."

[B.U.D.G.I.E]

When searching using the Mk 1 Eyeball you have two people giving 100%

So your aircraft is only working at 50% capacity then. If your looking for someone and do an area search eyes in all directions is far better than just one side of the aircraft. :ugh:

[Coconutty]

Strange isn't it that despite us all doing pretty well the same job, those who operate left orbits say their method is best
( though the number of UK Units operating this way are in the minority ), and those operating right hand orbits insist their method is best -
rather than everyone accepting that there are at least some benefits in BOTH methods.

Dragging this subject back - to the one of Police Helicopter Budget Cuts ( & NPAS ),
I imagine there wont be a choice of orbital direction as and when aircraft become replaced,
because they will be a "Standard Fit", along the lines of the latest batch of EC135's,
which are all configured to operate with rear observer on the right, and therefore right hand orbits.

So - Those currently operating left orbits might want to look to the future, and start thinking
about how they can make the most of the right hand orbit type of operation -
if and when it is imposed on them by NPAS :ok:

Oh, and by the way :
Can the law be prosecuted for sinistromanual discrimination?Thanks for that really useful post - the answer is NO !
... and talking of "boll**ks", did you replace yours with a Thesaurus ?
You need a grammar checker too - "the law" cannot be prosecuted ....
People can be prosecuted, so can Organisations, Companies ( their Officials ) etc.
but not something as inanimate as "the law" :rolleyes: :oh:

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[Art of flight]

Don't know wether to laugh or cry, how is NPAS going to get off the ground with any sort of joined up thinking when we're still debating which way around the target we fly!

Perhaps those at the top are better off not listening to any feedback from us at the front line if this is what we're saying.

[Digital flight deck]

Interesting to see the emphasis put onto the police side of life by some of the pilots. I just wonder if there is a danger of being "sucked into the job" so much that one starts to neglect your own responsibilities. I understand the usefulness of looking at the screen and out of the observers window, but there must be a line drawn.breaking off temporarily from the job on the ground to see what is happening in the ac. Just how temporary?

[B.U.D.G.I.E]

But how many times does an observer catch a fuel pump caption or clock a tcas. It all comes down to working as a crew.
It would be interesting to see sone stats from units that fly right or left. To see if there finding more or less offenders and mispers.

[What Limits]

Budgie, you touched on a fundamental issue here - stastistics.

I foresee that NPAS will be hailed as a success. They will be able to prove that there will be more of everything and it will all cost less.

The power of stastistics is severely underestimated. Politicians live and die by them every day and you can bet on a tsunami of stats from NPAS to justify their existence.

Look what happened to SOCA. I think it was 15 billion without an arrest?

How would you 'normalise' your stats on mispers for instance?

Area searched? Number of hours? Number of activations?

I would be just as interested to find out how many were not found. Does that point to poor technique? CYA? Or can you claim a success because you cleared a large rural area and can say that that misper was NOT there?

And that is just mispers.

[B.U.D.G.I.E]

Alot comes down to tasking and if the misper was ever there in the first place or is it just a box tick.

[Retro Coupe]

stastistics :}


It's part of your job to get involved thats why apart from OPC LPC's there are line checks for pilots as well as observers. Or have we forgot about that.


I haven't, one of the reasons I wanted to become a police pilot in the first place was to play a part in the outcome of a task. Pilots generally have a better field of view than the two observers on board, with the rear observer looking out the side that he/she is sat and the front observers eyes in, most of the time, looking at the monitor.

With the amount of work that still needs to be done, I would be very surprised if National Air Support becomes a reality in 7 months from now. I think the more realistic scenario will be that the regions that have been identified will be up and running first before we all eventually get merged into the grand scheme (:hmm:).

[handysnaks]

With the amount of work that still needs to be done, I would be very surprised if National Air Support becomes a reality in 7 months from now. I think the more realistic scenario will be that the regions that have been identified will be up and running first before we all eventually get merged into the grand scheme

Retro, I think that has always been the plan!

[Final Flare]

This is fact.........Reports of a young child fallen into a canal, unable to be seen from the bank, can the Police Helicopter lift to help in the search. From take off the helicopter was overhead in 4 MINUTES. Not 15 and definately not 20 minutes. I just want to repeat that.... 4 minutes. A body of the young child was located face down in the canal, showing no signs of life by the helicopter. Paramedics and Police officers directed by the helicopter crew to the body, which is still unseen from the overgrown canal bank. The child is then lifted onto the bank where CPR is commenced.A request is received by the Helicopter crew to casevac the child to Hospital. The helicopter is landed, the child and 2 paramedics are transited to the Hospital.Now add to the fact that the above mentioned helicopter is to be removed by NPAS........

[airpolice]

Every day in every force, the guys are faced with the possibilty of..... and because the aircraft was away doing that task, they were unable to attend a similar job.

Whether it is removed by NPAS or servicing or just busy, you can't win them all.

This is a debate that requires emotion to be kept in perspective.

[Fortyodd2]

FF, just been looking on various news sites around Sheffield, Luton, Cambridge & Wiltshire to find more info on this story but not found anything yet - any clues?

[Final Flare]

Whether it is removed by NPAS or servicing or just busy, you can't win them all.

1. I accept the servicing comment.
2. If you were busy are you telling me you wouldnt break off what you were doing to attend?????
3. I understand you can't win them all, but it helps if you are in the game!!!

I repeat 4 MINUTES.......!!!!!!!

[airpolice]

FinalFlare,

Are you suggesting that there is NO JOB you would leave this "floater" to attend to?

Prioritising the workload means tricky choices sometimes.

The Derek Bird incident Vs the Child in the Canal. Greater threat to life: You choose.

[PANews]

FF I think you have to accept that the child was particularly lucky in this instance, another day the cards would have been dealt differently.

There seems to be a general agreement that something had to be done about the general efficiency of UK police air support, and that something is being called NPAS. I think what this meandering thread is about is talking among ourselves how we feel it should be formed in the new age.

The airframe deletions are required, but there is dispute as to whether ten is not too many. The end result should be a fleet that works to optimum efficiency [whatever that is] and around 1300 hours per airframe per year rather than some doing that and others doing far less because the work is simply not there - regularly acting as the local air ambulance is simply a means to 'prove' that the underused police element is not too much of a time waster. With more and more ambulances arriving on the scene this subterfuge was wearing thin in some areas.

The problem reflected here is a disquiet based on the capabilities of the planners in as far as their proven day-to-day police aviation credentials. Police aviation UK works efficiently today because it is coal face operated by people who are in the main those with operational savvy.

Despite the claims made by senior politicians and ever so senior officers the recent disturbances were administered in the first instance by coal face ranking officers - and air support was no different. By the time the thinkers and planners got back from their holidays and country retreats and sat at the strategic planning table as the new week dawned the die was cast by those that had done the job [a mix of well and badly] over the weekend.

It looks as if NPAS is likely to remove that easy and efficient front line interaction between equals in the future by being centrally controlled by a control centre 'filter' that is unlikely to have the operational expertise that brings about flexibility. But that may be wrong, perhaps the filter will not get in the way of efficient direct interaction and the worries expressed in various posts in this thread are misplaced.

I can only hope so.

[Final Flare]

It seems my intention for my previous posts may not have come across as I intended.

It is not the severity or priority of the job that was the issue, it was the timing.

Of course the nature of the incident is important and I agree, police aircraft are not omnipotent. Stating the police aircraft was only acting as an air ambulance due to underusage is also not the issue. The aircraft was infact conducting a police search, when the task evolved into a casevac. The issue is that had the aircraft not been insitu as fast as it was, the casualty would have been in a far worse state or even submerged totally, making the child almost impossible to locate.

I was going to say I understand that budgets have to be cut and I understand that, however when it impinges on the safety of the general public, is that too high a price to pay?

The aircraft is to be removed and the area is to be covered by aircraft from surrounding areas. 15/20 mins are the timings bounded around currently. These are based on speeds in still air. Now anything over a 20kt head wind will affect these timings and it will be a skilled pilot that can get all the information, run out to the aircraft and indeed lift into the hover in under 2 mins, as promulgated by NPAS.

My real point is that add the above details into a central control room and the 15/20 mins become 20/25 or even 25/30. Tasks such as my previous post, pursuits, offenders running from officers, street robberies, 2 in 1 burglaries will be unattainable from a standing start.

I am sure there are instances in which NPAS are making efficiences, but from reading this thread from the beginning I am yet to read a firm operational positive.

Yes, I agree a national air support is a good idea, but really shouldnt we start carte blanche? Not fudging a 10 year old plan, based on geography, that was binned as even then it was not efficent.

still confused and flabbergasted at those still backing this incarnation of what should be a revamped, efficient service....

[jimbobawob]

Its all about time...

Very well said Final Flare, and about bloody time.

[jayteeto]

No it isn't, it's all about money :(

[airpolice]

They should start by cutting out the money they pay (me and the likes of me) the people who are making money from providing a "service" that the Police already have people on the payroll to do. One force could have taken a lead on it and the rest could have come into line, but oh no, let's all just do our own thing.

Jayteeto & Mightygem among others on here will know that I have been happy to take the money, but that is not justification for the forces continuing to pay it.

Throw away the Pennies, and the Pounds will bugger off on their own!

[Thomas coupling]

airpolice: what are you on about - can you expand?

[Fortyodd2]

TC - Contractors and freelancers? Apparently, contributing to somebody else's profits is more "efficient" than doing it in house.

[Thomas coupling]

Ah that old chestnut. It's a fact that directly employed pilots are much more expensive to run that contract pilots plus there is the additional problem with employment law/pensions/risk/insurance etc etc.
I am all for direct pilots - I was one once !! But I fully understand more risk averse forces going down the contract route.

[airpolice]

TC Check PMs

I am not a (Police) Pilot. I'm just one of the low level leeches who do well out of a little effort for the UK Air Support community. There are savings to be made but I see little appetite for this anywhere.

I'm not convinced that Pilots directly employed by the Police are more expensive. Having the stability of your own people is worth something, and getting yet another temp in and training him/her all eats into the budget of operational efficiency.

[morris1]

The airframe deletions are required, but there is dispute as to whether ten is not too many. The end result should be a fleet that works to optimum efficiency [whatever that is] and around 1300 hours per airframe

Having worked for ten years at a very busy ASU, flying pretty much those sort of hours, I can absolutley concur.... that if there are units in sleepy hollows, not turning out for a job for days on end.. then yes. There either isnt the work there, or they need to get off their arses and find it..

Cutting a/c from busy units, where the replacement cover will come from other busy units next door.. is madness..!

The end result will always be a depletion of cover for all involved.

simple maths.
3 units flying 1300, 1200, 1000 hrs each.
Remove the 1200 hr a/c .
leaves 1 a/c flying 1900hrs the other 1600hrs..!!

[RotaryWingB2]

simple maths.
3 units flying 1300, 1200, 1000 hrs each.
Remove the 1200 hr a/c .
leaves 1 a/c flying 1900hrs the other 1600hrs..!!

Unless of course the hours are limited to 1000hrs per aircraft by NPAS.

[morris1]

So it seems there has finally been some publicity in south yorks about the loss of their a/c...
Local media and websites discussing the pros and cons..
dropped on this item..
From the South Yorkshire Police Authority Budget 2010/2011
http://www.southyorks.gov.uk/embedde...ct.asp?id=3168

SYP is a £260 million pound organisation.
The savings being talked about are £600,000...
This equates to a saving on the entire budget of 0.23%...!!!!
Less than one quarter of one percent saving..???

[Fortyodd2]

Morris,
they can make figures say anything. Happy to be corrected but I think that a saving of £600K is after they have forked out for the NPAS "Service" rather than funding their own. There is no way that S.Yorks can be flying their current totals on £600K a year.
However, S.Yorks Police Authority are in for a very big disappointment if they think they are going to get anything close to the service they have enjoyed up until now. With the best will in the world and a following wind, none of the surrounding aircraft will make Sheffield from a standing start in less than 10 mins. However efficient the new service is, for Sheffield it will not be effective which is why they were right to dig their heels in. The only beneficiaries here will be the crims and the Senior Officers who get promoted on the back of "savings"
Effectiveness has an efficiency of its own.

[morris1]

No no.
I wasn't saying that was the budget.

The media releases are saying £600k is the saving to be made.

The clip shows that the saving of 0.23% of the annual budget is peanuts in the grand scheme. Especially at the cost of their own a/c. !

[Noah Zark.]

RE -SYP Helicopter,
It's the same as Sheffield Airport. Once you've had it and lost it, it's gone. Forever! :ugh: :ugh:

[DaveE]

Its not over till the fat lady sings!!!......... latest press release from the Authority.

Police Authority wants force helicopter assurances

South Yorkshire Police Authority insists it will fight to maintain an effective and resilient air support for the county, despite the creation of a National Police Air Service.
South Yorkshire Police helicopter will stop operations in January 2013, as a single national police helicopter service is put in place.
The National Police Air Service will consist of 23 aircraft operating from 20 bases around the country, with the nearest for South Yorkshire being based in Derbyshire, Humberside and West Yorkshire.
However, South Yorkshire Police Authority wants reassurances from Government that the national scheme will not reduce services to the county.
Members of the Authority will meet again on September 23 to discuss a range of strategic issues which are set to impact on the policing of the county over the coming years and the role of the force helicopter will be a key area for debate.
The Authority has seen a reduction in funding of £15m from central government in 2011/12 and is expecting to see a £40million reduction over the next four years.
Charles Perryman, chair of South Yorkshire Police Authority, said: “We will not be pressurised into making or accepting a decision regarding the future of the force helicopter until we know how this will impact on the standard of service to the public in South Yorkshire.
“As a county we are being mandated into having a National Police Air Service. However, if members determine that this development, with a select number of regional bases, is not good for South Yorkshire then we will challenge these plans.
“We want to make sure that when the national model is implemented it maintains the existing excellent service we already receive.

[Art of flight]

When did £600,000 as a saving from one department from one county force budget become peanuts? Add all these peanuts up and there's the real savings. It's not just £600,000 and thanks very much, it's £600,000 saved each budget period in the future. Good people are losing their jobs in droves because public spending is way out of control. Tough choices are having to be made, I applaud those on here who are defending their own corner but the reality is less money next year and each year for policing. If your argument against the NPAS plan is "I know we've got to save money, but......." then you'll probably want to see if the 'NIMBY' cap fits.

[SilsoeSid]

Police authority refuses to back helicopter plea
Published on Saturday 10 September 2011 06:00


South Yorkshire Chief Constable Meredydd Hughes failed to convince his force’s governing authority to join the National Police Air Service (NPAS) yesterday after he admitted the “flawed” scheme would see the county’s helicopter cover reduced from “gold-plus standard to acceptable”.


Plans for the new NPAS show South Yorkshire would lose its dedicated helicopter from 2013 and have to rely on aircraft based elsewhere, although its Sheffield base would still be used occasionally.

Mr Hughes said the force would lose out financially if it failed to sign up, but South Yorkshire Police Authority deferred its decision for two weeks.

Police authority refuses to back helicopter plea - Main Section - Yorkshire Post (http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/at-a-glance/main-section/police_authority_refuses_to_back_helicopter_plea_1_3761042)

[morris1]

When did £600,000 as a saving from one department from one county force budget become peanuts?

It's peanuts next to the £260,000,000 annual budget.
ie the remaining 99.75%.
A proportionate cut across larger budgets would generate a much larger saving.
(the government spends more than £600k a year on WINE by the way!)

I don't know anything about public service budgets.
But I know if you reduce the number cops, crime goes up.
Simples. !

[zorab64]

Morris - not that I'm supporting Govt. wine purchases but could I suggest that, before posting such distractions, you consider finding out how much they make from selling the stuff - presumably to MPs @ Westminster, not using expenses, and making a small (or preferably healthy) profit?
The distraction is greater because it's not multiplied by the 39 Police Forces in England & Wales, or even by the slightly fewer that do/did have Air Support. :rolleyes:

I would agree, however, that there are plenty of other areas where large savings could be found, or efficiencies made. Common sense seems to be in remarkably short supply when it come to large, Public organisations', budgets! :ugh:

[Art of flight]

Morris, the percentages game is a false one to play, but if we play it the South Yorks way, the CC has already admitted that next years budget will be smaller so the 'real' £600,000 becomes a bigger percentage of the new smaller budget so air support will cost you more next year 'as a percentage' without actually changing anything. If the police authority think they can still afford the gold plus service at air support in the future then other parts of the force will suffer even more. If they have found some way to carry on with a smaller budget without making bigger cuts to the rest of the force to save integral air support, could they tell us how it's done?

[morris1]

- not that I'm supporting Govt. wine purchases but could I suggest that, before posting such distractions, you consider finding out how much they make from selling the stuff - presumably to MPs @ Westminster, not using expenses, and making a small (or preferably healthy) profit?

BBC News - Government spends £17,500 on wine (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10357852)

You will see here that the £810,000 wine stock is kept for VIPs and "special occasions". A distraction it may be, but a shameful waste of money in these times.

My point about budgets is that Police Forces should think carefully about where they chop services. The loss of a bespoke dedicated a/c for their area comes at a very small fraction of their total spend. The effect of the loss of the service is extremely disproportionate to the saving.
I don't deny that cuts will have to be made when budgets are reduced.
But the public need to know that the NPAS model is a reduction in provision, nothing more.

[SilsoeSid]

Just out of interest I googled " Police Force Staionary expenditure"

Not wanting to trawl for any particular force or hunt for the highest figures, I opened the first page that looked as if it would be of use. The Norfolk Constabulary Discosure Log link came up on the first page.

Norfolk Constabulary Discosure Log (http://www.norfolk.police.uk/aboutus/yourrighttoinformation/freedomofinformation/disclosurelog.aspx?category=Expenditure+and+Other+Financial+ Information&year=2009)


Please could you provide me with all recorded costs associated with the new Police website ..... £254,662.08 to be spent on the project in 2009/2010.

How much money was spent by your force on hire cars during each of the last five financial years? .....2008/09 £493,898.38

FOI 313/09......
Copier Paper........2008-2009 £39,143.63
Office Stationary..2008-2009 £157,403.85

The following expenditure is recorded in relation to subsistence allowances, entertainment of official guests, hospitality and official functions.
2008-2009
Staff Subs & Other Expenses.................£129,802.11
Staff Subs & Other Special Constabulary..£87,271.62
Staff Subs & Other Traffic Warden .........£41.82
Official Functions ................................£10,232.23
Entertainment of Force Guests ..............£3,634.95
Area/Department Hospitality .................£108,278.75

I would like to know how much money your Police Force has spent in the last 12 months on a music licence from the Performing Rights Society for Music..£144.70


The music is sorted, you just bring along the wine. :E

[airpolice]

Nah, can't see that being right. Even the civilian staff at FHQ can spell some of the tricky words, or can they?

Sid:Office Stationary..2008-2009 £157,403.85

No figures for the Mobile Office.

[Digital flight deck]

So Norfolk are well placed to organise a pi$$ up, they just need the talent. Criminal, one could say.

[SilsoeSid]

...and to let everyone know about this party, we should go to South Yorkshire Police;

How much money has been spent supplying staff with smartphone handsets such as Blackberries in the last financial year?

£408,040

Finance | South Yorkshire Police (http://www.southyorks.police.uk/taxonomy/term/76/all)

[SilsoeSid]

..and I'm sure they could supply a Master of Ceremonies;

Under the Freedom of Information Act, please could you tell me whether, since 1st January 2007, your force has paid for any "celebrities", such as television personalities (including local television), actors, "celebrity chefs", newsreaders, musicians, sports stars, authors etc, to carry out any work for your force.


SYP response:
South Yorkshire police have paid for "celebrities" to carry out work for our organisation.

Celebrities:

Richard Noble
Angela Rippon
Floyd Woodrow
Christa Ackroyd
Harry Gration

All were motivational speakers, apart from Christa Ackroyd and Harry Gration who were paid to present an awards ceremony.

A combined total of £17,828 was paid to the above five celebrities.

[SilsoeSid]

...and some raffle prizes;

Under the Freedom of Information Act 2000 please could you tell me how much your force spent on promotional items in the previous two financial years (2009-10 and 2008-9).

1) Total from April 1st 2008- March 31st 2009: £55,780.37
Total from April 1st 2009- March 31st 2010: £99,773.11

Top promotional items for this financial year

Fuzzy Bugs.........£2,517.80
Pencils...............£5,078.95
Pens..................£16,671.80
Trolley Keyrings...£6,087.90
Finance | South Yorkshire Police (http://www.southyorks.police.uk/taxonomy/term/76/all?page=5)

[SilsoeSid]

Police pledge fight for air support
Published on Monday 12 September 2011 07:27


THE chairman of South Yorkshire Police Authority today vowed to fight to maintain effective air support after it was announced the force helicopter will be replaced by a new National Police Air Service.


The county’s dedicated chopper will stop operating in January 2013.

The National Police Air Service will consist of 23 aircraft operating from 20 bases, with the nearest to South Yorkshire in Derbyshire, Humberside and West Yorkshire.

But South Yorkshire Police Authority chair Charles Perryman said: “We will not be pressurised into making or accepting a decision regarding the future of the force helicopter until we know how this will impact on the standard of service to the public in South Yorkshire.”

“We want to make sure when the national model is implemented it maintains the existing excellent service.”

Police pledge fight for air support - Barnsley - The Star (http://www.thestar.co.uk/news/local/barnsley/police_pledge_fight_for_air_support_1_3762604)

[SilsoeSid]

Who is going to empty the bins and hoover the carpets from April?

(Other vacuum cleaning devices are available from various retailers)

[PANews]

Back in post 1802/1805 and 1836 I mentioned attempts to get the current police forces to talk about operations in the recent 'riots'. As some of you will be aware the end result although not as comprehensive as intended was fine and useful when published.

You may also recall that Cheshire decided to say nothing and go the FOI route.

Well I have had the reply from them now [much too late]. Bear in mind this whole exercise was kicked off by someone in the industry telling me that it would in effect be 'good for the industry to write up the acts of great operational activity undertaken by CHESHIRE police as they supported GMP during the riots'....

Everyone thought affected was contacted [press and unit] and the end result article reflected the replies received. Less than comprehensive.

Anyway, just for completeness Cheshire's FOI response was....

In accordance with section 1(1) (b) of the Act our response is provided
below;

There are no cooperative instances affecting the operational use of the
North West Region air units throughout the region.

So it seems that the Cheshire aircraft did not respond to the GMP disturbances. I was, I am afraid, misled. The group of aviators in the North West do not interact. Still nothing from NPAS either.

[Mr_G_Box]

And there was me thinking I'd been co-operating all over the place that night!!!:(

[airpolice]

If the eleven guys go back to Divisions, there is no money saved as they are still being paid.

[Final Flare]

Now then,

It has been published that South Yorks are making a saving of £600k on air support. I would like to interject that I believe this figure does not include staff wages....

Unless someone can suggest otherwise....

Neither does any of the figures quoted for the apparent savings.

So to shed some light, I have done some digging which is easily found on t'interweb.

South Yorks employs 9 x constables (I believe) @ £36,516 ea
2 x Sergeants @ £41,040 ea

This equates to £410,724...... leaving a saving of £189,276

Oops suddenly the massive saving doesnt look so big, for a massively reduced service from 20 mins away.

Add this to any other costs that NPAS have "forgotten" to add in.........

[Final Flare]

I would suggest the costs being bounded around are for the aircraft and pilotage. It hasnt taken into account the cost of wages of the officers.

Of course on paper it is going to look like a saving when you say you can provide an aircraft and pilot for £1.4M.

However you already pay your staff £0.4M in wages.

Oh look £1.8M.......hmmmmmm no cost saving.

[Final Flare]

as quoted by airpolice.....If the eleven guys go back to Divisions, there is no money saved as they are still being paid.

I refer to the part...."there is no money saved"

exactly......

[Art of flight]

Answer A..... If 11 officers go back to division, that division/s has 11 officers too many based on current establishments, answer, the next 11 that retire or are posted are not replaced, equals saving, simples!

Answer B..... The 11 officers replace 20 civis who are made redundant, answer, savings!

Answer C..... Do some deeper research such as asking your local force for the real ASU budget figures and you will find what is and isn't on the balance sheet (ie police officers).

[Final Flare]

Answer to answer a, That could take anything up to 10 years to wait for a constable to retire.... equals no savings. Also local divisions are already overmanned and are looking to make cuts.

Answer to answer b, It is illegal to make someone redundant to instate someone else, as that position is clearly not being made redundant. Equals, unfair/constructive dismissal, equals no savings, infact costs a whole lot more.

Answer to answer c, again doing some more digging and deeper research on t'internet. The South Yorkshire budget of £1.63M, consists of:

Aircraft (and fuel for 1200hrs/year)
Pilotage
Full PART 145 engineering support, both scheduled and non scheduled
Observers

Looks like a complete operating budget to me......

[Wagging Finger]

In response to FF's flawed figures I have spent some time researching the relevant figures and find FF's arguments fatally flawed,

so heres the result.


According to South Yorkshire Polices own figures here (http://www.southyorks.police.uk/foi/disclosurelog/20100011).
SYP employs

2316 Constables
@ around £42000 each = £97,272,000

436 Sergeants

@ Around £47000 each = £20,492,000

Total Wage Bill for lower ranks £117,764,000



Now to save my sanity lets say that they have five divisions and staff are shared between them

A Div =87 Sergeants & 463 Constables
B Div =87 Sergeants & 463 Constables
C Div =87 Sergeants & 463 Constables
D Div =87 Sergeants & 463 Constables
Ops Div =88 Sergeants & 464 Constables (Ops get the spare one)


We can now see that the Divisional Budgets for LOWER RANKED STAFF ONLY come to

A Div =4,089,000(Sgts)+18,354,000(PCs)=£22443000
B Div =4,089,000(Sgts)+18,354,000(PCs)=£22443000
C Div =4,089,000(Sgts)+18,354,000(PCs)=£22443000
D Div =4,089,000(Sgts)+18,354,000(PCs)=£22443000
Ops Div =4,136,000(Sgts)+18,396,000(PCs)=£22532000

Total Budget = £117,764,000


Now using FF’s figures lets assume the Air Support Unit (Ops Div)consists of 2 Sergeants and 11 Constables and the Air Support Unit closes, Immediately they need Jobs the Sgts go to A & B div (for simplicity) Two PC’s each go to A to D Div and three manage to get places at Ops Div, the wages bill now looks like this

A Div =88 Sgt + 463PC=£23,582,000
B Div =88 Sgt + 463PC=£23,582,000
C Div =87 Sgt + 463PC=£23,535,000
D Div =87 Sgt + 463PC=£23,535,000
Ops Div =86 Sgt + 464PC=£23,530,000

Total Budget = £117,764,000


Now the thorny question of retirement,


South Yorkshire Police have 2,974 staff from here (http://www.hmic.gov.uk/media/south-yorkshire-valuing-the-police-preparedness-inspection-20110721.pdf):


Met Police have figures here (http://www.met.police.uk/foi/pdfs/disclosure_2011/march/2011020002012.pdf):


That show that 129 Police constables are of 31 years service and 68 Sergeants of 31 years service. Thats out of 31000 sworn officers,

That means that each month Met expect 10 Police Constables and 6 Police Sergeants to retire.

Met are ten times the size of South Yorkshire (31000 Sworn staff against 2974)

So we can surmise that each Month South Yorkshire could expect to lose 1 constable and half a Sgt (Yuk1)

At that rate the unit South Yorkshire Police will have effectively lost the total staff cost of its Air Support unit in Twelve to thirteen Months (Eleven Constables and Half a Sgt in the first eleven months then two months to cover the cost of the other Sgt in PCs gone from other posts) a saving of:

2 Sergeants @ £47,000 = £94,000
11 Constables @ £42,000 =£462,000


Total Saving £556,000

Now lets not forget that £556,000 saving is every year from now on, all of a sudden its no longer a small saving.

Now add the Operating cost of South Yorkshires Air Operations unit which is here (http://www.southyorks.police.uk/foi/disclosurelog/20080451)


“I would like to know the annual maintenance costs and the cost of pilots, equipment, training etc.
The total operating budget for 2008/09 for the Air Operations Unit is £1,279,471 including fuel, maintenance costs, insurance costs, equipment, pilots and engineers costs and aviation fees.**“

Note that no mention is made of Police Officers or observers costs in this reply.

Now add the wages saving of £556,000 to South Yorkshires own figure and we get £1,835,471.
A total saving of just over £1.8 Million per year, every year. As a tax payer that sounds like good value to me, now I accept that South Yorkshire will have to make a contribution annually to NPAS, no one really knows at the moment but a figure of £500k has been bandied about here and elsewhere.

Still a decent saving of £1.3Million PA. At that SYP would get access to 24hr Air Support unlike the lower level of service it receives now from its own staff!!

I’m sorry that this is a long reply, I’m sorry for the number of links (just in case you want the TRUE) figures, but I hope that this will put to rest some of FF’s claims as regards savings to be made at South Yorkshire Police.


:=

[airpolice]

A going round in small circles update.

The force budget was already based on the retirement losses you mention, so you can't save that money twice.

[Retro Coupe]

I’m sorry that this is a wrong reply


Damn, I read through all that script and now you tell us it's incorrect. :}

[Wagging Finger]

Thanks for spell check Retro, dam those wagging fingers.

Hopefully my spreadsheet did all the sums properly!!

[Final Flare]

Wow that is a whole lot of information. I was totally convinced in what he had to say, right up to the part that South Yorks will have access to 24hr Air Ops....

That is minus the 1200hrs that West Yorkshire will want and the 1200hrs that North Mids will want. Oh and the 20 mins transit time. Then there is the non scheduled maintenance issue, where North Mids may have to cover from Nottingham to Harrogate. Or the Weather issue, that Leeds being 600ft amsl, might be fogged in, I could go on......

Also if South Yorkshire can make all those savings on personnel alone, isn't everyone doing it? If so do we really need to make all these cuts after all?

If any other Air Support Units can match the budget set by South Yorks I will be mightily impressed. I believe that you will not be able to find a more frugal and financially efficient unit.

I challenge any of you to find a Unit who in 2009/2010 can match the budget restraints of £1.63M as promulgated by South Yorks.

This should include

Aircraft
Pilotage
Insurances
Full part145 maintenance (scheduled and non scheduled)
Observers ( yes the budget does include this I have checked)
Fuel

Over to you wagging finger......

[Wagging Finger]

FF it's daily obvious from your post that you stand to either;
a) Have to find work as a pilot from January 2013
OR
b) Be out there in the big bad world of Policing in January 2013

as regards my comment re 24hr Aircraft

That is minus the 1200hrs that West Yorkshire will want and the 1200hrs that North Mids will want. Oh and the 20 mins transit time. Then there is the non scheduled maintenance issue, where North Mids may have to cover from Nottingham to Harrogate. Or the Weather issue, that Leeds being 600ft amsl, might be fogged in, I could go on......

Where is south Yorkshires aircraft at 01-00 on a Sunday morning? I would hazard a guess at locked away in it's hangar whilst it's crews snore happily in bed, Whilst Leeds Bradford International Airport may be 681ft AMSL the bases you mentioned are certainly not. I take it from your post that the SYP aircraft is NEVER affected by weather and maintenance issues, if thats the case perhaps SYP should put in a bid to run NPAS what with their financial know how bolted on they are sure to be a winner.

I notice from here (http://www.westyorkshire.police.uk/?Page=166%7CHelicopter+Activity+Log) that West Yorkshire were in South Yorkshire at 20-30 on Sunday night, where was their aircraft at that time, down for maintenance or something else:sad:


Sadly geography and range circles have put paid to SYP Air Support. No amount of argument on here can alter that fact, what I do object to is members putting out false statistics. I was transparent in my post showing the source for my figures, prey tell where you have checked that observers costs are included in that figure? Because their own web site doesn't say that!

Advantage Wagging Finger New Balls Please:E


:=

[Final Flare]

I believe I used the correct figures for Constables and Sergeants instead of the approximate figures Wagging finger used.... what else did he approximate???

If South Yorkshire loose that amount of personnel every year, then losing the Air Ops doesnt contribute to that fact. They lost that amount the year before and the year before that....?????

So back to the figures, South Yorkshire still have to pay the observers!!!!

So a loss of £1.3M as approximated by wagging finger. The £0.6M as approximated by wagging finger still to pay.. equals £0.7M saving... woohoo.

Unfortunately wagging fingers' figure are fatally flawed and the amount South Yorks have to pay is £1.1M to NPAS, oops a LOSS of £0.4M.

Bearing in mind South Yorks is in a consortium with West Yorks and Humberside and ALREADY have access to 24hr air support.....

Looks like a good deal to me... Arent stats brilliant....

[Wagging Finger]

Looks like there are some people on the pitch, they think it's all over. (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-south-yorkshire-14809567)

FF I would love to think that there is a large pot of money and the Government could keep throwing money at all public services, but they can't £700,000 saved is £700,000 saved, Forces nation wide are happy to save £10,000 here and there, why? because they all add up.

What you forgot to factor into your maths FF was the fact that despite the fact that a PC is paid at max circa £37,000 PA gross, the Force also have to make a NI contribution on that Officers behalf taking the TRUE cost to the Force to circa £42,000 the same can be said for all ranks, and yes the officers will need paying but SYP is reducing its numbers so those 13 (Unlucky?) staff will be absorbed into that downsising in year one.

I did round up figures to the nearest £100 and the nearest 0.1% when calculating percentages, either way you cut it the figures show a saving even if it is only £1.00 it's a saving, that you cannot argue against.

Like I said, I have been more than transparent where I get my figures from, can the same be said of FF, I also notice that there has been no comment on My questions
Where is south Yorkshires aircraft at 01-00 on a Sunday morning?
and
I notice from here that West Yorkshire were in South Yorkshire at 20-30 on Sunday night, where was their aircraft at that time, down for maintenance or something else

Does FF have answers to these questions or is he just a troll? (Wonder if that one will get answered?)

Cogent argument wins the day?


:=

[Final Flare]

Thanks for making it personal.... I have no idea what a troll is????

To answer the last questions...

The West Yorks a/c was probably in South Yorks doing exactly the same thing as the South Yorks a/c did when it was in West Yorks for the recent riots, or the recent EDL marches or when West Yorks had unscheduled maint, or on its annual service.

Maybe even the same reason the South Yorks a/c was in Humberside doing the same thing or for its impromptu marches and when Humbersides a/c was on maint....

South Yorks do not provide 24hr cover, neither does Humberside which is why along with West Yorks they have developed a consortium, which has been running for many years. Long before NPAS and its deluded followers ever thought up this very poor excuse for Nationalisation....

Hand on hearts, I know this incarnation will not save money and so do you... It will however cost lives, livelihoods and peace of mind for many thousands, when they realise they still have 20 mins to wait for a police helicopter....

I am very secure in my employment, but I know as developments and announcments from NPAS continue there will be lots who wont be. Possibly many who thought they were safe....

Fly safe , Final Flare out.....

[Wagging Finger]

FF In relation to having words put in my mouth, I think that it WILL save money, yes it stands to reason that the aircraft will be less effective, but lets not forget we are trying to save money here.

If you feel that I was making it personal by asking you to prove the veracity of your claims then yes that question was aimed at you personally. Your decision to bow out does throw some doubt on your 'figures' though.

:=

[SilsoeSid]

BBC News - Failed fire project wasted £469m, says committee of MPs (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14974552)

A project to set up nine regional control centres for fire and rescue services in England was a "complete failure" and wasted £469m, MPs say.

The public accounts committee said the Firecontrol scheme had not achieved any of its objectives and that eight of the centres were empty "white elephants".

[Wagging Finger]

NPAS are on the hunt for a control room, could be one going cheap!:ooh:

[malreeves]

As I do not hide behind a false identity and am employed as Chief Pilot at South Yorks lets get some facts straight.

First, under the Formal Consortium Agreement South Yorks (and Humberside) already have 24 Hour cover from West Yorkshire.

Second, NPAS were supplied with the following figures for the actual 2010/11 budget for the Total of all Costs of providing the SYP Helicopter, which was £1.63m. We also supplied the projected figure for the Total of all Costs for the fiscal year 2011/12 which was £1.68m. The figure that NPAS then reproduced in their briefing document was £1,852,000:00p. ??

Third, Observers (Police Officers). Those observers who do not wish to transfer to NPAS (Terms and Conditions of "New" employer not yet known) will have to be retained within OSS (our Operational Support Services Arm) therefore no savings will be made on salaries unless staff transfer.

Forth, as SYP Pilots and Engineers are directly employed they are guaranteed positions within the new NPSAS framework (under TUPE rules). As each region comes on-line positions will be advertised within NPAS. Contracted staff at units taken over by NPAS have no transfer rights under TUPE and will have to look to their contractor to provide alternate employment, or resign and join NPAS as new employers.

Fifth, we have done to death the lack of cover that will follow disbandment of the Unit at Sheffield, it doesn't make sense in any way and we have proved that in a response to NPAS ! However, the real reason falls into difficult territory but revolves around the fact the SYP are entirely self contained with our own PART 145 Engineering and Directly Employed Engineers and Pilots. We have no nasty penalty clauses that would interfere with NPAS budget predictions compred to other Units who have costly Engineering/Facility contracts which would have to be terminated if the Units were to close or be relocated - hence we are a cheap target to chop.

Finally, if you don't believe any of the above then feel free to challenge your own management (who might not be telling you the facts) or NPAS.

These are the facts, no; "I think", "I suggest" or "I assume" .

As for me, I retire in Jan 2013 and will observe with interest from afar!

[morris1]

As Homer Simpson once said.
"in this house you will obey the laws of thermodynamics!".
(one of the children had managed perpetual motion).

Or:
You can't get more, for less.

NPAS is purely about saving money, nothing more, nothing less.
The shortcomings of the service provided thereafter are not an issue.
ASUs will soon accept that they simply will not be performing the same role as before. In a press release recently NPAS stated "all requests for air cover will be closely vetted and only authorised if the use of the a/c is suitable."

So the goalposts for deployment are already narrowing. Apparently my own force control room won't be able to deploy our a/c without going thru NPAS command and control FIRST !!

In the SYP example the formation of NPAS has given the Ch Const. The chance to wash his hands of a difficult decision. (although I gather he has conveniently taken his retirement now ! Nice.)

If NPAS is the future, then fair enough. But as stated before, the cost saving to SYP is 0.23% on the gross annual budget.

[Bertie Thruster]

As for me, I retire in Jan 2013

Mal, you might just have a reprieve if the Germans successfully stick an age discrimination finger up to EASA next April!

[Thud_and_Blunder]

Ey up, Bertie - tell us more. Pretty please!

[handysnaks]

The judges argued that "while the right to act as a pilot may be limited from that age [60], total prohibition goes beyond that which is necessary to ensure air traffic safety".

Not exactly what we need! (http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2011/09/13/361975/eu-court-rules-against-lufthansa-pilot-retirement-rules.html)

[JimL]

Notwithstanding the pros and cons of the argument for the restriction on commercial pilots after age 60, this has little to do with the regulator - it is a comment on the industrial agreement in force at Lufthansa.

Jim

[handysnaks]

Without getting too much into thread creep. I highlighted what I think is always going to be the problem, in that the decision statement implies that the judges agree that a limitation for 'air traffic safety' is acceptable.

[malreeves]

Sorry to press the point, but after the SYP contribution to the NPAS replacment aircraft scheme (somewhere around £300,000) is included there will be NO, repeat NO savings to SYP, which is why NPAS are reluctant to use accurate current costs or provide anywhere near accurate projected costs. They know they will rise and the Chief Constables would not have signed-up, neither would the Police Authorities if the true figures were known!

National Police Aviation is to be supported, BUT doing it this way is going to cost much more than advertised and the service WILL be much poorer.

With respect to those people who still refer to "Our aircraft" and "Our base" - it will not be yours it will be NPAS', under NPAS control and NPAS direction and the staff will be from the NPAS pool.

There is a huge amount of assumptions being made by everyone surrounding what will happen. Because the SYP unit is to close we have, perhaps, asked more awkward questions rather than resting on our heels. I would still suggest that everyone starts lobbying for the truth.

[SilsoeSid]

Adding £300,000 to the running costs of a unit in a briefing document, for that unit to subsequently be selected for closure in the name of savings smells of something underhand to me. I won't say the words that may be more applicable, as like Mal, I have made no attempts to hide my identity.

Needless to say, there are still a lot of unanswered questions about the financial side to NPAS that are being avoided. I understand the reasons why noone from NPAS is answering questions here in public that's why the POLKA aviation site was created, just a pity there are no answers there either.

Can anyone name a force whose financial department was contacted prior to Oct 2010 and asked about operating costs or financial futures?

I feel an inquiry will be somewhere down the line. :ooh:

As things are, we are getting into regionalisation nicely and it will work, regionally, however this was in the pipeline many years ago. Perhaps NPAS is proving to be a step too far.

Can anyone yet explain the logic behind the distribution of units in the NW ?

[RotaryWingB2]

Can anyone yet explain the logic behind the distribution of units in the NW ?

Logic? When did that come into it?

As I understand it, Merseyside were pretty much shafted, for whatever reason. On the plus side, the other local (ish) ASU's are getting to see more of Liverpool/Manchester.

[jimbobawob]

I see the Police Authority have just decided to reject the NPAS proposal.
It's good to see the people that count have their heads screwed on and haven't been hoodwinked by the NPAS jackanory machine....

[malreeves]

To all of our friends who have been supportive over the last few months - Thank you.

[land out]

At last, a police authority that see's sense.
How many to follow?

[Fortyodd2]

Good Luck South Yorks.

[Final Flare]

At last an Authority that sees sense. Amazing bravery to be the first, let's hope others now follow. Absolutely brilliant news.....

[morris1]

Wonder how many more dominos will topple now!!

[B.U.D.G.I.E]

I thought from earlier posts that if the forces authorities rejected the plot it would be forced through. Can either side actually do this???????

[morris1]

Last I heard, the government had washed their hands of it.

Having read the "tweets" from police authority it sounds like a lively meeting.!
Quote "very tense meeting".

Would seem the Pol Auth saw through the financial holes in the NPAS plan.
I love the bit where the annual invoice to SYP was to be £1,012,000 or so "saving £600k".
But then there's the £300k extra, added on for future procurement.!
Ah. So it's not £600k saving !! lol.
Was that in the small print then ???

Wonder what else is in the pipeline. Admin charges-£750,000. ??

[Fortyodd2]

Now on the BBC:
BBC News - South Yorkshire Police to keep force helicopter (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-south-yorkshire-15039934)

[SilsoeSid]

Well done and good luck SY, it will be interesting to see what the Home Secretary will say to this.

Time to reinstate the old motto "JUSTICE WITH COURAGE"? :D

http://beccashu20.files.wordpress.com/2011/03/police.gif




South Yorkshire Police to keep force helicopter

South Yorkshire Police is to keep its own helicopter instead of signing up to a new national scheme.

South Yorkshire Police Authority announced it would opt out of the planned National Police Air Service which is due to launch in April 2012.

Opponents had warned the national scheme could mean a trebling of response times.

The decision makes South Yorkshire the first police force in England to opt out.

Charles Perryman, chairman of South Yorkshire Police Authority, said the decision was only made after a "long debate".

He said: "The National Police Air Service representatives were unable to assure us that we could get the level of cover we require for our communities.

"The balance of risk was that we were better off with our own helicopter based in South Yorkshire, so it could reach all parts of the county in a faster time than we would get from using neighbouring bases."

Neil Bowles, from the South Yorkshire Police Federation, said figures produced by the National Police Air Service "weren't convincing".

"They didn't take into account the capital costs of replacing the helicopter and I don't know whether they included the cost of our staff," he said.

South Yorkshire Police had earlier said the removal of the force's helicopter service would save £668,000 per year.

The police authority said it would now have to consider "implications to the budget" as a result of its decision to keep the force's own helicopter.


BBC News - South Yorkshire Police to keep force helicopter (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-south-yorkshire-15039934)

[B.U.D.G.I.E]

and the floodgates are opened.

You would like to think if the whole thing falls on it's ar@e then merseyside should get there chopper back then????

[ShyTorque]

Very glad to hear this outcome (the only sensible one); it was discussed at some length on local radio yesterday. Everyone agreed it would be a negative thing to remove the local ASU cover.

Not that anyone needed convincing except those trying to make a career out of the new proposal.

[berty]

I don't want to dampen down the chorus of triumph.

I would hesitate to suggest that most would agree that the aspirations of NPAS - to join up etc - was a good thing, needed to face the difficult times ahead and long overdue.

BUT not for the helicopter losses - which is a separate issue driven by the Bankers raiding taxpayers money.

So - time for reality check - SYP will simply have to make the savings (cuts) elsewhere in force and, now, I wonder how many other ASUs will now be threatened with closure if NPAS folds.

The "I'm all right Jack" that is faintly heard from Sheffield can be seen in a different twilight. But of course, that is for the real world.

[Wagging Finger]

The "I'm all right Jack" that is faintly heard from Sheffield can be seen in a different twilight. But of course, that is for the real world.

Well said Berty, no doubt somewhere in SYP there is/are department/s that are now on their own specialised forum bemoaning the cuts that are about to come down upon them because SYP PA have decided to 'save' their aircraft. So before the gloating and backslapping starts perhaps we should think about those people, unless we are all NIMBY's that is?

[Final Flare]

Am I missing something??? SYP would save £668k approx? However would then have to pay £300k approx for future aircraft procurement and continue to pay the wages of their staff £500k approx... Would that with their subscription of £1.1m equal £1.9m approx???? It seems on the face of it SYP, by keeping their aircraft are actually saving their authority over £200k approx.... As next years budget as quoted by their Cheif Pilot is £1.67m approx. Looks like this is the way forward to making those national savings. Let's set up a NNPAS... (Non National Police Air Service)...

[SilsoeSid]

The most interesting thing I find when reading the news about the recent meeting is; Representatives from NPAS attended the meeting, but authority chairman Charles Perryman said members had “not been reassured” by their arguments and decided to opt out of the national arrangement.Hard landing for changes to police helicopter strategy - Main Section - Yorkshire Post (http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/at-a-glance/main-section/hard_landing_for_changes_to_police_helicopter_strategy_1_380 5931)

Will other meetings such as this now be taking place around the country?


Further into the article I notice;
It is understood that to date only 10 of the 43 forces in England and Wales have formally accepted the scheme.

How long until April? :eek::ooh:

[berty]

FF

Maths is obviously not your strong point, or perhaps you just need to think a little more. Manpower 'savings' would be made through putting officers back to force and not recruiting more - its notthat difficult to grasp.

And who is going to pay for the next aircraft. You cannot compare the £1.67m 'running' cost of the SY ASU and not include the cost of its eventual replacement, and then count both for the NPAS costs. You are either stoopid or misleading by not comparing like with like. And of course it will cost SYP much more without a central grant.

Blackhead06

I would guess that the pressure to achieve savings rests far higher than the NPAS team. Oh, and how did we get ourselves in such a big mess anyway - so many types of helicopter, not flying over the border.

[SilsoeSid]

FF
Maths is obviously not your strong point, or perhaps you just need to think a little more. Manpower 'savings' would be made through putting officers back to force and not recruiting more - its notthat difficult to grasp.

Which of course would make sense if SY were recruiting !

Published on Thursday 21 October 2010 08:11

NO new police officers are to be recruited by South Yorkshire Police for the foreseeable future in a bid to save £10 million, the Cheif Constable has revealed.

Med Hughes said the current recruitment freeze for officers and civilians will remain in place long-term following the Government's announcement that police force budgets are to reduce by four per cent year on year.
Recruitment freeze for cops - News - The Star (http://www.thestar.co.uk/news/recruitment_freeze_for_cops_1_2966979)

[berty]

SS

Its because SY are filling gaps by redeploying existing officers that they can get away with not recruiting. Is this really the level of debate?

[berty]

Blackhead06 (now forming into Zit01)

I realise now my error, sorry about that. But here on planet Earth we have a few minor difficulties regarding finances. It is well and good talking about operational effectiveness, and you should, but it can't be disconnected from the scarcity of money. It's ok for the those in the grey retired brigade to shout from the sidelines its not like it was my day - because its not. If you dont know of any instances when the border has come into play then you should get out more. You say you support the idea of a national air wing and yet bemoan the npas team for having to give it a go in what is now very difficult times. And, why didn't you give it a go in your day? And that would have been without the need to save 20% over the next 2 years in air support. So here's a challenge for you - come up with some useful ideas to save money - not like the pointless part of this thread about wine costs etc. Or are you content to sit in your own happy little world and fire the odd misguided rocket off now and again.



Remember 20%, next 2 years, from air support - transmission ends. I hope this message doesn't get lost down your blackhole.

[PANews]

Although some aspects of the SYP thinking can be seen to have flaws - including the one that assumes a cost of a typical police role equipped light twin helicopter as being £5M in 2017 [£1.5M trade in + £3.5M for a new role equipped machine] - there are signs that a healthy rethink is underway. Add the fixed wing for Dyfed into that little pot.

Somehow I doubt this is more than a bargaining point .... the expectation that NPAS would retain the SYP base at Sheffield as a FOB is wierd.... what is that going to cost?

The NPAS house of cards is not going to tumble over this, after all the CC always said he was against it but he is off shortly and influences may well soften after he has left the big house.

The report associated with this decision clearly shows that some are not happy losing their unimportant associated air support activities.... football.... photography ... PR... It may be that others have not actually considered these losses. Air support is not only about 999 calls and it is that element that NPAS currently concentrates on.

[B.U.D.G.I.E]

including the one that assumes a cost of a typical police role equipped light twin helicopter as being £5M in 2017 [£1.5M trade in + £3.5M for a new role equipped machine]

I think they need to wake up and smell the coffee if they think there gonna get a new machine out of ECUK for that price. :}

[Blue Thunder]

Looking at the broader picture on government changes in police forces, which also includes police authority members.

Will any of the current police authority members be around to oppose any NPAS changes after 2012?

I only ask this after reading these published articles. The government are commited to changing everything on decision making at a local level so what will happen when 2013 arrives?

APA commits to successful transition to Elected Police Commissioners (http://www.apa.police.uk/news-releases/apa-commits-to-successful-transition-to-elected-police-commissioners)

Avon and Somerset Police Authority (http://www.aspola.org.uk/index.aspx?p=214)

[berty]

Far from being conflictory, I think we might actually be on the same side in the we both think some form of joining up of police air support is needed. I think where we differ is that I fear that NPAS might not happen because of a number of issues, and the consequences will be far more damaging. Perhaps the team has gone back and sought some deferment, I dont know but I can imagine in the current financial climate that being frowned upon. Perhaps there will be a second round, but time clicks on and budgets have already been cut for the years ahead.

For info, I have nothing to do with police - rather a different organisation that has things that go bang. Many years ago we embarked on bringing the different colours of the organisation together - plagued with protectionsism and self-interest. In fact the resistance to change was legionary and we failed to achieve what we might have done, the budget increasingly went pear-shaped and the price (subsequently) had to be paid. So, yes I have some sympathy where perhaps you do not but then you perhaps have not encountered how difficult all this is, which of course is not your fault. So sorry, it is an issue close to my heart but for historical reasons.

I was always facsinated by the police having so many different empires, with different equipment and all doing pretty much the same thing. I think it can be made much slicker & cheaper - if it had been done so a few years ago then the current situation might be different - but you are not even on the starting line yet and the longer you leave it, the race might just get cancelled.

And with that, I will return once again to the Shadowlands.

[ShyTorque]

Regarding "cross border ops". We used to routinely do this. The only time a cost issue came into it was when a neighbouring force with no air support of their own asked for air support for a pre-planned operation, as they would for any other form of assistance from another force.

One point that seems to have been swept under the carpet so far. Helicopters sometimes get involved with long distance chases. Spreading resources more thinly (as per NPAS) will surely result in some vehicles / runners escaping simply because the helicopter needs to leave the pursuit to refuel.

It's actually very efficient for a helicopter reaching the edge of its normal operating area to pass on the job to the next ASU, who have arrived freshly refuelled and have the local knowledge required for many more difficult jobs.

In a national system the aircraft are likely to become stretched in terms of both fuel endurance and a lack of local knowledge of the crew.

[zorab64]

whitehead - your post #1937 speaks volumes of sad sense. I, too, feel that once you see units not responding to tasks that they're realistically too far away from to do any good, it's the start of Air Support going down the plug-hole, full-stop. You then only attend proximate (to your base) urgent taking, planning/photographic, the missing & suicidal. If you happen (more by luck than judgement) to be near an immediate requirement when it's called in, you might pick a few up there too.

The problem with all the armchair experts is that the basic theory of getting to urgent jobs, in a sensible timescale, seems to have been done away with. A 15 min radius of actual attendance is great (though a theoretical 15 can often stretch to 20+, if communicators aren't on the ball) but if you start at a theoretical 20-25, the actual figures aren't worth talking about - which SYP Authority, to their credit, have realised. :ok:

Borderless tasking can work, we've been doing it for years, but it most often needs the people who are actually doing the job to remain aware of what's going on around them to pick up the tasking, rather than a central tasker, who may not even be able to pronounce the name of the place they're asking you to go to, to deal with the deployment, IMHO!
The real issue is placing (or keeping) bases so that the deployed resources overlap their neighbours - depending on how big the circles are, of course! Some while ago I noticed someone on POLKA comparing the proposed closure plan to pulling teeth. If you take one out, you can maybe fit a brace to close the gap a bit - but you can't really do that when you take out two teeth next to each other! := These gaps will soon be exploited by those who wish to & the appropriate fillings will be expensive, if not impossible, to procure - if anyone wished to!

NPAS may have laudable aims, some of which can be accomplished with relative ease. The more painful bits need more investigation before implementation, I'd suggest, or we'll have many more than a few airborne individuals feeling the pain! :ugh:

And I'd concur wholeheartedly with ST, too!

[ShyTorque]

Zorab64, thanks.

Not too long ago our local control room was closed in favour of a "more efficient" centralised one. The police I worked with knew this couldn't possibly work as well as the old localised ones. They were correct; it was a shambles. One of the reasons was with operators now not having a clue about the place names / wider geography involved.

I also experienced this first hand from a consumer point of view. Driving home one night, I found a car on its roof on a local grass verge, wheels spinning, folks stuck inside. I rang 999 and described the precise location (only a couple of miles from my home). The operator had not a clue of the place name (outskirts of town) and repeatedly told me I was talkng about somewhere not in her county and definitely not near where I was (I'd lived in the area for over a decade and knew I wasn't wrong). I had to describe it in fine detail, literally spell everything and give road numbers etc plus driving directions so someone could eventually attend. Thank goodness the passengers weren't seriously injured.

Then not long afterwards we had the almost laughable experience of two policewomen sent to our local police station from the town where the control room was situated (15 miles away). They couldn't find the police station. Instead they went to the local newspaper office for directions, who later printed the story with glee.

Shambolic but predictably so. Police need local knowledge to be most effective. There is nothing better than a bobby in the aircraft directing his colleagues along his old "beat", down back routes and footpaths, giving the bobbies on the ground the local names for little places not on the map. Been there, experienced it.

Sadly, that kind of operation is being thrown away in the name of so called better "efficiency". However, those responsible for NPAS are now thankfully being less successful than they had hoped in getting bull*** to baffle brains.

[PANews]

ST

Your recital of problems associated with a lack of knowledge has nothing to do with NPAS more to do with those that are pulling the strings - ACPO.

It is a sad fact that ACPO has for years been digging tank traps designed to scupper proper policing across the board and central control is at the heart of this misguided [actually criminal] activity. These know it all super beings occupying a lofty place of their own making have generally never served as police people for any length of time as they scrambled for promotion to their special place in society. They cannot understand what policing is about because there is no one to tell them that is not on that same mission of betterment.

They discount the advice coming upwards because it is from people who choose to dedicate their lives to serving the public - potentially staying in one rank and one extremely known and understood location for 20 or more years. They see that knowledge as flawed because it 'must' be based on graft and illegal favours of those in over familiar surroundings.

For their part their activities they are rewarded by hero worship from the politicians, a QPM or two and a knighthood here and there.

:)

[morris1]

im sorry, but are we really going to take lessons on economy and saving from the mil..!!
Having spent some time with things that go bang I know the amount of wastage and p1ss poor planning... is legendary..!


having read some of the previous posts it becomes clear that some (non police) people are losing sight of the bigger picture.

Yes police budgets are being reduced by 20%... that doesnt mean that EVERY department needs to be chopped by this amount.
It is it really beyond the comprehension that some units need ring-fencing..!!

I use the s.yorks example because the figures are available.. but even WITH future procurement taken care of, the budget can come in at 2,000,000.
The full budget for that force is 260,000,000
So the ASU amounts to 0.77% of the total....
Surely, please god, surely... people can see that their budget can be protected, and the savings found from the other 99.23% of the operation..! (start with the CID overtime bill.!!)

[berty]

M1

You can take lessons from everything - good and bad. It seems to me that Forces are faced with some difficult choices and helicopters unfortunately are an expensive asset. While it might be 0.77% of the budget (for other rural forces its going to be a much higher %), but also £2m = 40 officers. And sometimes some aviation people can't see the bigger picture.

But again I think we are on the same side, my earlier message was probably of the wrong tone. Bluntly, the more helicopters the better but reality check kicks in. I think what I was trying to say was ... if separated from the number of helicopters to stay etc, NPAS is the way forward as it delivers savings without affecting ops. But instead of limbering up to the start line, you can't seem to agree where the start line is, and there's much bickering in the team and with the manager. Bodes well.

[Wagging Finger]

re the .77% of the total

Yes it may only be a small percentage of the total. All forces have been told to save 20% across the board, even the Forces who have sought, and managed to become very lean over the last few years.

At a Force level this implementation is discussed not in percentage terms but in monetary terms, In SYP's case about 50 million, so the mentality is save money, not percentages, so all of a sudden half a million here and there becomes an attractive prospect. Every department within the Police think that they are essential to the efficacy of the Force. I can understand protectionism within Air Support, but somewhere along the line we will have to share our burden of the cuts however painful they are.

It also bears some thought that some departments are ring fenced, local Policing being one, once a department becomes ring fence it affects the percentage level of savings that have to be made elsewhere.

I am not an NPAS appointee, I do think that in general NPAS is a good idea, I do think that it could be marketed a little better though.

I was around in the 90's when pursuits were every evening, we had helicopters then and it still happened. It was more to do with legal changes than helicopters that it went away.

In the late 80's the government lowered the level of vehicle taking by creating TWOC or TWLA(Summary only offences) vehicles crime went mad, ram raiding through the roof, pursuits the same.

Then came along, better vehicle security (no more black boxing) and aggravated TWOC which resulted in a Crown Court appearance and a lengthy stay in prison. The increased vehicle security led to what we have now, two in one burglaries.

So lets not say that Air Support stopped vehicle crime, it was just one cog in a machine that slowed it down a little, that's all.

There are some very valid points on this forum but sometimes emotions get a little high (mine included) and we go around in circles, change in some form or other will happen, it always has within the Police, we will have to learn to live with it and make it work, like we have always done.

[ShyTorque]

Why not cut 50% of all police road vehicles?

[Gas Generator]

Reasons why police air support have developed very successfully since it's inception?

Ram raids were the initial reason but once in service it was soon realised that having a helicopter available actually saved a significant amount of money in search costs and significantly increased successful misper finds - alive! Air operations has produced a substantial deterrent effect and it is this, more than the changes in Law that has produced a decrease in car related crime.

If the criminal knows he/she has a very good chance of getting caught then that's when they actually think again. Not sentencing - getting caught.

And why do they get caught; because the forces with large urban areas have placed their asset (where possible) very near to that centre of crime because, air support is only successful when you minimise TIME. Its all about reducing time on task/speed of response, anything that increases TIME decreases operational effectiveness. Place an asset 20 - 30 minutes away and it is doomed to fail.

A National solution to air ops is a natural sensible progression.

It had to come. But it has been handled really badly. The original statements about air ops were factually incorrect, politically motivated and insulting. If anything, police air ops around the country have led the way (police) in cooperation, coordination and communication. Cross border ops have seamlessly operated for years and cooperation on purchasing and information exchange (User Groups etc) has been in place for years, as has training both regionally and nationally.

The backlash started by SYO was inevitable when the NPAS team (no police aviation knowledge - still) have not been giving the correct costings and providing a solution to air ops that will increase not decrease crime and time.

SYO want the 'gold standard' they are used to and pay for - their words - GOLD STANDARD.

It is after all giving a service to the public not just about cutting costs. Costs can be cut from air ops but the NPAS way is to reduce operational effectiveness by placing the assets away from the centres of crime and increasing response times. The beer glass principal. Do this and you also reduce deterrent effect (West Mids a/c etc). The central control room idea will only exacerbate the problem.

The Police Authorities are not stupid. They realise that they or the replacement system, the new commissioner set up, will get it in the neck from the public if, a) crime increases in that area and b) if they are in the long term going to receive a worse service for the wrong costs. This is only the start. September is going to be an interesting NPAS milestone.

It doesn't help that NPAS has indicated that it's own funding formulae will not work in the long term!

What would be refreshing, if NPAS would take a step back, take a breath, employ some aviation experts, observers and pilots, perhaps an aviation engineer, to look at a better national solution. The operational aspects like local control not national control need to be looked at again.

Are emotions high on here? Of course they are. Many air observers (of all ranks) and pilots have built up the service and operated it for the benefit of the public only to see it being systematically changed and destroyed in the name of savings! Did not ACPO state that front line assets would not be touched?

In essence Waging Finger, there are 3 groups of people that contribute to this thread. Interested outsiders, passionate practitioners and ostriches!

Living with it and making it work is not a responsible way forward.......

:=
:ugh:

[Fortyodd2]

Well said Gas producer!
The biggest problem NPAS have yet to overcome is one of credibility. There is only one person on the team that can speak with any knowledge, authority and experience on the subject and only one other who has been honest enough to put her hand up and admit that she knows nothing about the subject.

Spending wisely on Air Support will increase efficiency.
Simply spending less on Air Support will not produce savings.

Effectiveness, especially 100% effectiveness, has an efficiency all of its own.

[Digital flight deck]

Gas generator, you talk a lot of sense but the reality is that NPAS seem to be hell bent on plan A and nothing else. All the wise words and common sense in the world makes no difference if the power brokers are not willing to listen or take note and adapt. It is very sad, and unfortunately ever increasingly likely, that we will end up with a sub standard and not really fit for service air support. I fear the writing is on the wall.

I really do wish that some of the NPAS representatives would engage in this discussion at a more ground roots level and stop what seems to be an idealistic and self promoting attitude to this. :sad:

[Wagging Finger]

Why not cut 50% of all police road vehicles? Good point Shy, these are the questions that need asking, why not cut Force establishments by 20%, Why not amalgamate Forces across the country, that would save a fortune, oh! I forgot that was proposed once but the (Enlightened?) Police Authorities blocked that plan.

As regards GG comments

Ram raids were the initial reason
and there was me thinking that the inception of Police helicopters came about following the report into the tragic events in Hungerford:eek: A report that recommended that all of the then Metropolitan Police areas looked at aircraft as an asset.

Air operations has produced a substantial deterrent effect and it is this, more than the changes in Law that has produced a decrease in car related crime.
And the data to back this up is where? I do agree with the deterrent effect of aircraft, but it is not the cure to all evils. If aircraft are so effective, why do we still have car crime? The same reason the death penalty was not a deterrent to everyone, some people just don't care about getting caught, they see it as an occupational hazard.

I am all for quoting things as fact, yes this is a rumour network but lets at least have them backed up by the most tenuous of stats.

For the record I would class myself as a passionate practitioner. I am all for healthy debate and discussion, but please back it up with some hard facts otherwise it's just a waste of time and effort on everyones behalf.

[PANews]

It is probably unfair to say that NPAS will not move from Plan A.

There are clear signs that there is a Plan B which is Plan A modified to keep the detractors off the back of NPAS [but no more].

Aspects of Plan A (Mod) are an apparent late realisation that the world is not occupied by helicopters alone. So we get the late [post October 2010] mention of a fixed wing for Dyfed-Powys and courting of light twin manufacturers including Tecnam and Diamond.

Fixed wing plans have been otherwise remarkably absent from the NPAS plan. Why would you only want one of anything at GMP to cover the whole of England and Wales? And why would BN Surveillance be at Gamston last week?

[SilsoeSid]

and there was me thinking that the inception of Police helicopters came about following the report into the tragic events in Hungerford :eek: A report that recommended that all of the then Metropolitan Police areas looked at aircraft as an asset.

Really, weren't there any around by then? You are talking about the 1987 Hungerford incident...aren't you?



A number of factors hampered the police response:

The telephone exchange could not handle the number of 999 calls made by witnesses.
The Thames Valley firearms squad were training 40 miles away.
The police helicopter was in for repair, though was eventually deployed.
Only two phone lines were in operation at the local police station which was undergoing renovation.Hungerford massacre - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungerford_massacre)


As police realised the seriousness of the incident armed officers and helicopters were rushed to the area.BBC ON THIS DAY | 19 | 1987: Gunman kills 14 in Hungerford rampage (http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/august/19/newsid_2534000/2534669.stm)

By 6pm, Ryan, was cornered at John O'Gaunt school, surrounded by armed police and police helicopters.Gunman in combat gear kills himself after 14 die in shooting spree | Special reports | guardian.co.uk (http://www.guardian.co.uk/fromthearchive/story/0,,1286273,00.html)

The Hungerford police were already undertaking a manhunt for the killer and a police helicopter spotted Ryan. They warned ground units to set up a roadblock around South View, to stop any drivers entering the area, although they had no idea what Ryan would do next. In an unfortunate turn of events, the police at the roadblock actually sent some drivers directly towards Ryan.

Despite the police helicopter hovering above him and telling him to lay down his weapons, Ryan merely walked away. The police officers at the scene did not apprehend him at this point, as they were unarmed. At 1.30 pm specially trained officers from the Tactical Firearms Unit were brought in and local police officers assembled closer to town. After killing his mother, Ryan walked across the school playing field, firing randomly.

The police were not certain if Ryan had shot himself or just fired off a round. They flew the police helicopter past the window, but could not see in to the classroom. The Crimes - Michael Ryan and the Hungerford Massacre on Crime and Investigation Network (http://www.crimeandinvestigation.co.uk/crime-files/michael-ryan-and-the-hungerford-massacre/crime.html;jsessionid=15B4B905C815F7F079D1DC477FFE97B2)


;);););););)
The first police helicopters (http://www.thamesvalley.police.uk/aboutus/aboutus-depts/aboutus-depts-ts/aboutus-depts-casu/aboutus-depts-casu-hist/aboutus-depts-casu-hist-fst-heli.htm)
:p:p:p:p:p:p

[SilsoeSid]

North Yorkshire to back National Police Air Service
8:29am Tuesday 27th September 2011

POLICE chiefs in North Yorkshire are set to back plans for a new UK-wide airborne service to fight crime.

Helicopters run by forces across England and Wales are to be merged into a single National Police Air Service (NPAS) in a move intended to save more than £15 million off the bill for policing from the air.

The new service would see the number of aircraft operated by police reduced from 31 to 23 across 20 bases.

However, the Association of Chief Police Officers has said the new service will provide 24-hour cover for 97 per cent of the population.

North Yorkshire Police Authority will next week agree “in principle” to support the NPAS plan after hearing it would give them a better service and see them pay £4,000-a-year less for air support.

North Yorkshire Police does not have a helicopter and calls in help from neighbouring forces, usually West Yorkshire and Cleveland, when it needs help with incidents and searches.

Wakefield, which is 13 minutes’ flying time from York, is currently the nearest base to North Yorkshire where police aircraft are housed, and this would continue under the NPAS arrangements as they stand.

Temporary assistant chief constable Iain Spittal and temporary superintendent Aubrey Smith, writing in a report to go before NYPA next week, said: “The benefits for North Yorkshire Police of this service would be enhanced effectiveness and efficiency to service provision, improving air support coverage and response times across the force area together with initial savings of approximately £4,000 per annum.

“The NPAS model aspires to provide a 24/7, single and cost-effective solution to provision of police air support.”

But the report also said some forces had “understandable concerns about any possible reduction in service as a result of the new scheme.

North Yorkshire Police has also raised concerns over costs and the areas which would be covered.

It said more detail, including a full business case, would emerge before the force decided whether to formally commit to the NPAS proposals.

A national roll-out of the scheme is scheduled to begin next April, with any new arrangements for North Yorkshire coming into force in about a year’s time.



North Yorkshire to back National Police Air Service (From York Press) (http://www.yorkpress.co.uk/news/9273006.North_Yorkshire_to_back_National_Police_Air_Service/)



"North Yorkshire Police Authority will next week agree “in principle” to support the NPAS plan after hearing it would give them a better service and see them pay £4,000-a-year less for air support."

So despite the report mentioning other forces concerns, the descision has been already made. Do they somehow have the answer to the statement made continuously on here, that you can't get more for less ?
Perhaps we should all get rid of our air units and sign up to NPAS !

I feel that penultimate sentence will be the clincher though :suspect:

[Wagging Finger]

SS, I was thinking more of the rapid growth in Police Aircraft that occurred after the publication of the HMI's report into the Hungerford shootings, There were not that many Police aircraft then and they were mainly clustered around London.

There is a world North of Watford Gap(cue abuse and even more sarcasm!)

At that time there were very few aircraft in this area, PA News covers this in the History of Police aviation article on his site.

WF

[Coconutty]

I've lost count now of who has published what about how many Police Authorities have "signed up" to NPAS,
but the comments from North Yorks signing up "in principle" are interesting.

I'm interpreting "in principle" as being the much quoted "Better service for less money" - Come on now - who WOULDN'T sign up to that as a principle ?

SOUTH Yorks appear to have reached the decision that that principle was not going to be achieved through NPAS in it's current form,
and have taken the commendable (IMHO) act of standing up for themselves.

Does anyone know whether there are ANY Police Authorities, who are quoted as having "signed up", have signed up in any way other than "in principle" ?
Has anyone / how many P.A's have actually formally and irrevocably committed to NPAS yet ? or, as I suspect, are they are ALL still waiting for some sort of guarantee, reassurance, or demonstrable and realistic financial business plans - to convince them that the "principle" they signed up to is ever going to happen ?

Oh, by the way, anyone know how much South Yorks are going to charge NPAS for Mutual Aid Air support :oh:

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[zorab64]

SS - Well observed. Of course if you don't have your own aircraft, and normally have to "buy-in" from neighbours (at relatively high, per-hour, cost), you're likely to be easily sold by the idea of getting more regular air support, and saving a massive £4,000 in the process!! {What on earth is it coming to when they're trumpetting about an annual saving that's probably less than a few days overtime, in many Forces}!?

The fact that the nearest aircraft starts with a 13 min response time, seems ludicrous, unless N. Yorks are only going to want cover for non-urgent jobs. The result will be the stretching of response times, with resultant reduction of service, in the aircraft base area, as previously discussed. :ugh: :ugh:

[ShyTorque]

SS, I'm not sure how many police helicopters were involved at Hungerford. I was on the staff of the Puma OCU back then and know that at least one RAF Puma was sent to assist; I even remember the name of the pilot ;) .

[SilsoeSid]

and there was me thinking that the inception of Police helicopters came about following the report into the tragic events in Hungerford :eek:
.
.
I was thinking more of the rapid growth in Police Aircraft that occurred after the publication of the HMI's report into the Hungerford shootings,

I wish you made it clear to us Waggers, that when you said 'inception',

in·cep·tion/inˈsepSHən/
Noun: The establishment or starting point of something; the beginning.

You meant 'rapid growth' ! :rolleyes:

[SilsoeSid]

:=There is a world North of Watford Gap(cue abuse and even more sarcasm!)

Ok, I'll start with the obvious...

....Hungerford isn't part of that World !
;)

[SilsoeSid]

ShyTQ,

I guess it would have been the Thames Valley Squirrel G-JORR out of RAF Abingdon.

The first police helicopters (http://www.thamesvalley.police.uk/aboutus/aboutus-depts/aboutus-depts-ts/aboutus-depts-casu/aboutus-depts-casu-hist/aboutus-depts-casu-hist-fst-heli.htm)

Maybe as the firearms team were 40 miles away at the time, 'the Puma' had something to do with that :ok:

[morris1]

'tis indeed an interesting situation.!
NYP have had a cosy arrangement with the boys from Leconfield over the years. Deploying mil a/c to many jobs that police cabs go to everywhere else in the world.
I seem to remember hearing that the NYP bill from NPAS was going to be pathetically low due to the "formula" that NPAS employ to do the costings. (I believe it's based on existing hours flown).
So the first years bill will be low. However, I wonder what the 2nd and 3rd years bills will be. ?

Does anyone know what NYPs first year bill is ?

And that's a brilliant scenario isn't it. South Yorks providing cover to NPAS at a £1500/hour. If that happens I do believe I will actually LMAO. !

[Thomas coupling]

"A saving of £4000 per year":D Wow, now that is a major cost cutting evolution.

Have they actually drilled down to that microscopic level of costs: approx 4hrs flying???

Deadline: April 2012. Time remaining: 6 months. Progress made with NPAS infrastructure: 0. A big fat zero:

No idea on synergies as regions combine. No plans on what to do with regional Chief Pilots, UEO's. No idea on ratio of crews to shift patterns. No formal initiatives on proactive Vs reactive flights. No pilots/observers/engineers advising.
NPAS is developing the future of UK police Air Support and it doesn't have any aviation advisors?

6 months and ticking.................................................


Yet again, the police politicians have re-invented the wheel, only this time, in the interest of cost cutting, they have taken away one too many spokes.

[What Limits]

Wakefield to York in 13 minutes, they must have one of those special helicopters there!

[SilsoeSid]

Wakefield to York in 13 minutes, they must have one of those special helicopters there!

Hows that then ?

[SilsoeSid]

6 months and ticking.................................................

Countdown to Apr 1, 2012 in UTC (http://www.timeanddate.com/counters/customcounter.html?msg=&day=01&month=04&year=2012&hour=&min=&sec=&p0=0)

[Gas Generator]

Fine People of PPRUNE, you MUST see this.......

http://southyorks.public-i.tv/core/portal/webcast_interactive/65106

As much fun as a punch and judy show but do not miss it, pass it on to your own Police Authorities...Save it for your grand children.

In the Grey corner you have the senior officers prompoting the party line - You must join cos it will save money.

In the Black corner you have the two representatives of NPAS, never heard of and no aviation experience WHATSOEVER, taking the flat-fish approach to answering questions, oops sorry that's a Flounder....

In the Blue corner you have the Authority members that represent real breathing people, yes, that's the ones the scrotes rob frequently.
Don't miss Kash Walayat OBE and pay special attention to Cllr John Parkinson and worship John McHale who believes NPAS is 'like a pin in the snow'....Beautiful.

It's one hour, twenty minutes of democracy in action, ney THE BIG SOCIETY in action even. However, BIG WARNING:

The NPAS aim under the surface is to replace helicopters with fixed wing to give a QUICKER and CHEAPER service!!

Now didn't the ASU's go through this evolution over the past 20 years or more? I am sure all those cheap fixed wings got replaced for a reason? Didn't they or was it that the constabularies had that much money they threw it at air ops..I think not.

Anyway, the Blue corner won by a knock-out, 7-1 one abstention.

This may be a new concept for NPAS - putting the service to the community first...............Don't miss it..

:ok:

[zorab64]

coconutty - you asked . . . how many Police Authorities have "signed up" to NPAS?

A call from a friend & a web trawl found the following in a provincial Essex newspaper:
Essex: Police opt into national air service Essex Police will become part of a national air service to save hundreds of thousands of pounds.
The Essex Police Authority, along with at least eight other forces, have signed up to the National Police Air Service which is set to launch on April 1 next year.
Benefits included round the clock access to air support every day of the year and extra units if there is a major incident but there is expected to be some police staff redundancies.
Supt. Iain Logan said: “Certainly, Essex Police is very much part of the national police air service agreement.”
There were talks of transferring the helicopter to Southend Airport, which would mean an extra eight minute flight time to reach the north of the county, but officials stressed the nearest helicopter at the time will attend.


It does raise a few questions - of course, but what would you expect!

1. It doesn't tell us who the other eight forces are?

2. When I last spoke to them, none of the three remaining units in East Anglia (soon to be 2, according to NPAS plans) work 24hrs - so not sure how round their clock is?

3. If the unit is staying, which "police staff" are likely to be made redundant?

4. Where would "extra units (note plural) for a major incident" come from if there are only 2 in the region - which I understand includes everything from North Norfolk to Dungeness!?
All this bearing in mind that the MET are unlikely to join the party, so the next aircraft, if Henlow goes, would be E.Mids, Benson, Surrey or Sussex - depending on incident location!! Complete madness?

5. Any news on the Southend move - apart from previous rumours on this forum?


Looks like the "spin" continues in stiletto-land too!

[SilsoeSid]

And the saga continues...

Fear lives would be put at risk by moving police helicopter to Birmingham
by Clare Hutchinson, South Wales Echo
Sep 28 2011

LIVES could be put at risk by plans to relocate a replacement police helicopter 80 miles away in Birmingham, the South Wales Police Authority has warned.

At the moment, both the regular and replacement helicopters used by South Wales Police are based at St Athan in the Vale of Glamorgan – which is five minutes by helicopter from Cardiff city centre.

But under the proposed National Police Air Service (NPAS), it is feared the nearest replacement helicopter would be based 40 minutes away in Birmingham.

The new nationwide air support agency would see 23 aircraft spread across 20 bases in England and Wales, with three spare helicopters on standby, producing savings of £15.27m.


But authority councillors and independent members have raised serious doubts about the scheme’s financial viability, as well as its potential to increase response times.

In a report, Assistant Chief Constable of South Wales Police, Nick Croft, said it was “highly unlikely” a replacement helicopter would travel from Birmingham to South Wales, due to the distance and the likelihood of it being called out to emergencies closer to home.

South Wales Police’s contract with private firm Bond Air Services, which is due to end in 2015, ensures a replacement helicopter is always available if the regular one is grounded.

Councillor Tim Davies, of the South Wales Police Authority, said: “Helicopters are very fragile machines and they have to have frequent maintenance and sometimes that can take a very long time, which would mean a relief helicopter would probably have to come from Birmingham.

“There was a recent example of a 13-year-old boy who was stuck in a bog in Tonyrefail as darkness fell and without the quick response of the Air Support Unit things could have been much worse.”

He said the business case for the proposal was also “substantially lacking” in detail. At the meeting members refused to support the “overall strategic direction” of the proposal, opting to ask for more details first. Chief Constable Alex Marshall said the organisation was working with the Welsh forces to “provide the reassurance they are seeking”.

Fear lives would be put at risk by moving police helicopter to Birmingham - Cardiff news - CardiffOnline - WalesOnline (http://www.walesonline.co.uk/cardiffonline/cardiff-news/2011/09/28/fear-lives-would-be-put-at-risk-by-moving-police-helicopter-to-birmingham-91466-29498026/)

[Coconutty]

Just finished watching the complete S.Yorks P.A. meeting video - Fascinating !

( I liked the bit where NPAS agreed that anyone could pull out -
up to the point of actually signing a contract amd money changing hands ;) )

One of the BIG issues that comes out of the S.Yorks decision, is that the NPAS Rep's clearly stated that the funding model they were bandying about
( not that many details appear to have been provided to confirm any of the figures or savings ), are based on all Police Authorites joining NPAS,
and that if some did not join up, this would increase the cost to those that did :\

So now, all those ( 10 or so ? ) P.A's that have signed up "in principle" must surely need to know what these increased costs will be,
for them to re-consider their previous "in principle" decision to join :confused:

What happens if another P.A. ( or more ) decide not to join ?

At what point do those cost increases to the remaining members result in there being NO cost savings at all ? :rolleyes:

What a mess !

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[berty]

Its seem just a little too obvious that if not everyone joins then the contribution will need to be re-calculated.

BUT you have to remember that if, for instance, S Yorkshire don't join the national scheme - then the costs of South Yorks will fall just to South Yorkshire - and not be added to the national bill. So the 'members' making the contributions falls by one, but the overall total the remaining members have to raise is £1.67m less (according to this thread).

So really it depends on which police authority you are talking about but, it seems to me, that for SY the remaining 40 or so members should make a saving.

I love this thread, as much as I want to stay away it gives me some form of weird S_M pleasure; just off to flaggelate myself.

[SilsoeSid]

BUT you have to remember that if, for instance, S Yorkshire don't join the national scheme - then the costs of South Yorks will fall just to South Yorkshire - and not be added to the national bill. So the 'members' making the contributions falls by one, but the overall total the remaining members have to raise is £1.67m less (according to this thread).


So what is the optimum number of authorites that need to FULLY sign up to NPAS in order to make the greatest savings for the member authorities?

What if only one authority signed up....?

[berty]

If only one signed up - then don't you have the current situation where everyone pays for their own?

I get the impression that the issue here is that there are long term savings to be had by common equipment, platforms etc that do not directly affect operations ie helicopter numbers - a more logical approach but medium/long term & which wont happen if people do not manage somehow to join up and get on with it.

Given the state of the economy, I cant see this being the only round of cuts so to me this about getting ready to delivering the next round of 'efficency savings' in a better way than just cuttings numbers or flying hours - as is required in this round because of the time allowed.

[Coconutty]

Have I got this right ? ....

There's also the consideration that the NPAS participants will also contribute an additional sum towards the NPAS aircraft fleet replacement program,
to cater for when the airframes become due for replacement.

Now that S.Yorks have pulled out ( and their aircraft isn't now being binned - they are planning their own finances for future replacement ),
it's one less contributor to NPAS so those remaining would have to stump up proportionally more for the aircraft replacements ?

I did also like the question ( which didn't get answered ) ...
"So if our Police Staff pilots are "Tupe'd" across to NPAS, and our aircraft is going - What are they going to fly ?" :rolleyes:

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[berty]

Obviously someone has to buy or lease aircraft - on their own, in consortia or as part of NPAS.

Same rules. One less member in the club but also one less aircraft to raise capital for (or revenue to lease)

But SY will now have to pay 100% for their aircraft, whereas the rest have to pay for the remaining 24 or whatever, between the remaining 40 members or so.

Also I doubt that SY will get the HO grant of 40% as in the past! which might be available to those more amenable to NPAS.

So by my maths SY will be paying (much) more than proportionatley everyone else. Not to mention not being able to cut a better deal by being part of a bigger purchase, support arrangement etc.

I bet the authority didn't mention that - at least it didn't make it into the local newspapers - might be embarrassing eh...

[morris1]

well being part of NPAS our unit will be able to take advantage of the extra procurement power of the national organisation.. So we can look forward to a shiny new a/c and all the latest role equipment.. :ok:

Although...
We will only get the a/c that NPAS decide we are going to have, only get the role equipment that NPAS decide to buy, and only get them when NPAS decide we can have it.!
And so will begin the politics, the jockying for position with other units, and the suspicion around how the contracts get awarded !! :uhoh:

excellent

[Gas Generator]

Dear Berpie

You don't seem to have NB'd the fact that the fine councillors of SYO want to keep a 'gold standard' of service to the public! They did - their senior officers didn't..And, they are happy to pay for it, because it is a valued service - a deterrent, and that is one of the oaths isn't it?

You are looking at a house of cards because:

It's a good idea but it was completely screwed up by not bringing the aviation professionals on board from the beginning. There will be an NPAS eventually, it will be done properly and the first priority is to the public not to your own career path cos U saved a buck here and there...

The two voices from NPAS completely let NPAS down. It was embarrassing to watch.

SYO
SE Wales
Next? :ugh:

[J.A.F.O.]

berty

One less member in the club but also one less aircraft to raise capital for
Is that not slightly flawed? The SY machine/base was not due to be retained and therefore there is no change in the number of NPAS aircraft merely the number of authorities expected to pay for them.

[Blue Thunder]

Police Authorities depend on Home Office cash, so with Dave the rave saying this, I think the new person who replaces all of the authority members in each force will follow Dave's lead.
And I quote:
The prime minister, David Cameron, said: “By replacing invisible police authorities with directly elected police and crime commissioners, we can forge a direct link between the police and the public.”

Dave said it here:

Police reform plans outlined (http://www.lga.gov.uk/lga/core/page.do?pageId=12785470)

If I'm not mistaken Dave wants NPAS to be in place asap. Woe betide any force who doesnt toe the Dave line, as they may find that their next force budget is cut again.

So if one of the many fine police authority members who are currently in post don't get the new SYP commisionaire post, what happens then? Does the new man or woman in charge holding the bank notes do as Dave says or not? I think we all know the answer.......well at least Dave does for the next few years.

Its been a quiet night shift, but dont tell Dave :E

[zorab64]

Gas Gen - thanks for your SYP Police Authority meeting, very interesting :hmm:

berty - I think you'll find that it was quite clearly stated in the meeting that SYP would not receive the 40% HO grant, when they look at replacing their machine, so the Authority Members were aware of that. It's also why they were arguing that instead of paying £340k into the NPAS hull replacement scheme, they calculated that at £5m capital, less £1.5 trade in, they'd need to build their own fund of £3.5m over 10 years, or £350k per year, to get their own aircraft, 100% funded by themselves. (From what I saw/heard, the Member discussing it didn't quite get to these figs, but that is what he was trying to say)
It would seem a valid argument for any Authority, and even if they were to put a little more into the pot for inflation &/or reduced residual value, it wouldn't come out at much more than the NPAS figure.

One problem would be that, if they want something different from the masses (Gold standard), it'll probaly cost more than the bulk deal - - but if they were able to join in with the NPAS deal, which the manufacturers would surely be happy with, and NPAS (who should be representing the taxpayer) should not disallow, they'll get a very adequate machine at a sensible price. :ok:
It rather depends on your view of how NPAS regard themselves as far as their "responsibility to the taxpayer" goes, and whether there'd be political pressure to shut a "rogue" Authority out of negotiations. Whether they like it or not, that's what NPAS there to do, be responsible with our money, rather than empire building! Personally, I have my concerns.

Blue Thunder - you raise another valid point, re Dave & directly elected comissioners. A complete cluster-f*** IMHO. The current system of (mostly) elected local Authority Members has shown, by SYP's fine example, to work very well in their decision to help the Police serve the public in the area they represent. They should be heralded :D as having stood up for the law-abiding majority, most of whom will have to actually pay for the service of finding the vulnerable or slapping down the minority of scallys!

[berty]

JAFO

You might be right. Its hard to decipher all the detail.

If it was assumed that the SY wasn't going to be there, then what is missing is the SY contribution to NPAS - and it is this sum that will need to be raised from the remaining 40 or so. So if the SY contibution was £1m, then this means an extra £25K for everybody (but probably split more intelligently than this)

GC

Its nice to know somebody can afford a gold plated solution these days, wish there could be more of it - but someone has to pay for it. I cant open the video file but I can guess the authority weren't explicit about what else in the SY force has to go. But £1.67m = 42 police officers or about 60 police staff to be made redundant (or similar etc). And 40% of £5m = an additional £2m that SY have to find (where in the past it was provided by the HO grant). And a thought - does this mean that the HO own 40% of the current aircraft - that could be interesting. It would mean that the 'residual' value of £1.5m assumed by SY is more like £0.9m, meaning that SY have an extra £2.6m to find. Or perhaps the HO might want their money back sooner (I doubt it)

Zorab

I have no idea how it would work but it seems to me that it would not be appropriate for SY to think they can ride on the back of NPAS for free. What I guess would happen is that an appropriate % of the bill would be agreed & passed on to SY. So the overall bill to the taxpayers would still be the lowest that can be achieved and SY would pay their fair share. (This would also mean that SY would not appear cheaper than it really is etc...)

But its interesting to note your 'responsibility to the taxpayer' arguement because it could be argued that SY are failing in their duty to the (national) taxpayer. Works both ways.

It seems to me to be easiest to put the Sheffield aircraft back into the NPAS proposal, and nationally accept slightly less savings - and then presumeably SY would join. I think reflects the fact (I think) that it is not the idea of NPAS that fundamentally at issue (bar concerns on C2 etc) but the number of helicopters that have to go, to achieve the savings target in a certain time, which I guess was centrally imposed.

But I guess there's lots of politics stopping this.

[berty]

I have given this some thought, slightly tricky to explain...

Although the figures for raising of capital between SY and NPAS seem roughly the same, the 2 organisations are in completely different situations.

For SY, the situation is pretty much as it always has been - they need to raise £350K per year to fund the new helicopter etc etc, see comments above

But NPAS face (I think) a difficult start position - typical of a new business

1. They start with no capital - and are unlikely to be given access to capital stashed in forces (for example for the abandoned batch buy). And the existing fleet continues to age and need replacing (ie the abandoned batch buy)

So NPAS probably have to raise capital at an accelerated rate than would be the case in steady state - to play catch up.

2. Also NPAS have come up with this credit scheme for helicopters under 10 years old and this needs to be paid for - so I am guessing that a lot of the capital raised will be immediately paid back. This hinders the raising of capital until helicopters become 10 years of age and drop off the list.

3. Forces have faced cutbacks and will have trimmed spending on helicopters (where possible) as they will try to pass the buck onto NPAS. Human nature being what it is.

So whereas, SY are already in steady state, NPAS are not. I suspect the need to raise capital in the case of NPAS has the potential to reduce significantly in a few years time (when they reach their steady state).

[Digital flight deck]

Berty, where exactly do you think this capital is going to come from? The government as a whole has no money, the HO specifically has no money, or is the suggestion that police forces will have to stump up for the coming years air support plus a proportion for the capital funding although police forces around the country not only have no money but are in a minus position because of savings they need to make. :confused:

[Gas Generator]

Dear Betty

When you go fishing for Flounder and your line and bait are continually being bitten off by Pike, take up another hobby..
:ok:

[berty]

DFD

Forces have always had to provide capital to replace etc; so I think the mechanism is that, initially at least, it is this that is used for NPAS. This is not new money but re-routing of existing capital.

GC

Nice debating technique. I have no idea what you are on about, no really. I think your 'handle' says it all. Either you are a saboteur to this thread seeking some reaction, or heat, which I won't provide; or perhaps a disenfranchised SY, as in the main, you only seem to be bothered about this particular issue. I suspect we know.

My aim was to provide a 'balanced' view to this forum as there is enough worry out there regarding jobs, the changes ahead etc - for slightly sad people like you not to add to it. And I mean that in a nice way. My organisation went through similar some years ago, that's all and its a little too familiar. But if people want me to go as it upsets their ability to moan and complain, rather than discuss or even try to understand the issues, then I will happily depart as, in the main, I have better things to do. And I dont fish, tried it once, hated it.

So signing off, as perhaps I should have done some days ago. Good luck to you all, except GC who - if he is SY - should be turfed out immediately. Not least that he must have broken some disciplinary code regarding disloyalty to his seniors. You guys don't need him, or his like, and deserve better. This thread deserves better.

All I can finish with is that, based on my own organisation and the seismic changes we faced some time ago, all will be well - although it didn't seem like it at the time. We also managed to clear some of the deadwood out too.

By the way, flounder is a salt water fish and pike is a fresh water fish - so your comment is moronic at all levels. Well done.

[Gas Generator]

D'oh Beety

'Nice debating technique. I have no idea what you are on about, no really.'

And therein lies the problem...

'So signing off, as perhaps I should have done some days ago.'

Goodbye Betty

'By the way, flounder is a salt water fish and pike is a fresh water fish - so your comment is moronic at all levels. Well done.'

The idea is check you have the right equipment for the MEDIUM, the right experience and you are in the right place..

I would get booked in for a manicure Betty, nails are beginning to get a bit frayed.

:E

[B.U.D.G.I.E]

If the government want NPAS to happen it will. No matter what force says there not playing. Look at the stupid cuts that have and are happening that make no sense at all. If there happy to cut harriers and defence ships. You really think a police helicopter and it's police authority is gonna get in the way. Wakey wakey

[Windsor Loft]

Is the 350K (annual budget toward new aircraft) included in SY £1.67M budget they are already paying?

[heli1]

B.U.D.G.I.E and others are right.Marshall made it quite clear in his speech at Duxford last week that any police authority that didn't join ,would either be mandated to join by the new police commisioner when appointed to replace the local authority members (suggesting they lose all decision making powers,so why bother to have them?), or if that doesnt work he will ask the Home Secretary to intervene.
NPAS rules I'm afraid .

[Digital flight deck]

The cynics amongst us might say that those who refuse to join voluntarily do so knowing that the move will be forced upon them, there by devolving them of all responsibility for what may or may not happen. Just a thought.

[Gas Generator]

For those of you fellow PPRUNErs that are sceptical of the new commissioners (PCC) I urge you to read again the watered down plans. The Lib Dems have been at it again. I think you will find the appointment of this new system will actually be of benefit. This was posted a few pages back and urge you just to look at the plans again.

Avon and Somerset Police Authority (http://www.aspola.org.uk/index.aspx?p=214)

It appears the new system will have checks and balances. The PCC will be overseen by what is effectively, the police authority, now called Police and Crime Panels (PCP), councillors and 2 lay members.

The good thing about this set up and it fits in with Dave's 'Big Society' plan
is that the PCC will be representing the 'people', and that's exactly what happened at South Yorkshire! The councillors there had done their homework and overturned the 'party line', which is in the interest of the citizens of that County.

I am sure the Government has more to think about at the moment than forcing
a decision on locally elected representatives that the people they are representing - do not want. And, that's what the PCC and the PCP's will be doing. A thought.

:ok:

[Wagging Finger]

GC, I think your reading too much into the powers that will be vested in the crime panels.
Review and scrutinise decisions and actions by the PCC;
Review and veto the Commissioner’s proposed precept levels.

Review and scrutinise sounds a little wishy washy, whereas the word veto leaves little room for discussion. In this case the veto option only extends to precept levels and not decisions and actions by the PCC.

Successive governments have had nothing but problems with Police Authorities scuppering National plans all because some low level politician has a brilliant idea to extend their own portfolio and to make a name for themselves, do you really think that now they are going to replace PA's that they will allow them the same level of veto?

:=

[PANews]

the rest have to pay for the remaining 24 ...... [aircraft]
But it was clear from CC Alex Marshall's presentation at Duxford that the current plans may yet upset some financially.

The NPAS investment model is not £XXXXX divided by 43 forces.

The model is 'a sum less than you paid last year' ..... so some [North Yorks, Lincs and Kent etc] pay less than 'nothing' .... subsidised as ever by the others.

OK each of them will probably have used some air support in a year so there will be some numbers out there.

To meet the criterion if the bill is say £25,000pa in one of the 'no air support forces' above they may pay £24,000 to the NPAS pot where a similar sized air support operator of long standing can still face a bill of millions for the same discounted offering....

Take that on the chin.:uhoh:

[Gasp Generator]

No, no, no I dont want to hear it. Damn you all.

For those of you fellow PPRUNErs that are sceptical, the Teletubbies have joined forces with the Monster Raving Loons and developed a new system that will actually be of benefit. They sent it just to me but I can't post it because its drawn in crayon - and all the police helicopters will be based at Sheffield airport - its big enough as everyone else has left. It appears the new system will have me as El Supremo Presidente, overseen by Eric my invisible friend. The good thing about this set up is that, magically, it fits exactly what I have been thinking for years and that HP will eventually triumpth over Lord Voldemort (boo). So please no more of this unbelieving, else I will have to declare a fatwah and have you toasted with the muffins. Sheffield will always have air support, just like its steel industry. All hail the jammy dodger.

[Sky Bear]

Sorry Gasp Generator but having met Eric I must tell you your plans are doomed to failure.

[zorab64]

Berty -
. . . to note your 'responsibility to the taxpayer' arguement because it could be argued that SY are failing in their duty to the (national) taxpayer but the Authority have to compromise between cost, & service to their public. In this case, they obviously felt that the cost/benefit of NPAS was out of balance with their remit to represent their people and their Police Force.


. . . any police authority that didn't join ,would either be mandated to join by the new police commisioner when appointed to replace the local authority members (suggesting they lose all decision making powers,so why bother to have them?), or if that doesnt work he will ask the Home Secretary to intervene.
otherwise called political bullying, IMO - not "localism", as has been so regularly trumpeted. (See previous comments re Comissioners !) :ugh:

[ShyTorque]

I note that the S.Yorks Chief Constable is "standing down" in a week's time.

Any connections with recent announcements on this topic, I wonder?

[SilsoeSid]

A very interesting webcast, well worth tucking yourself away for an hour to watch. (Agenda 6, NPAS)


One particular highlight, what was that Phil Raymond said?

"Part of the proposals under NPAS would be to have a mixed fleet of aircraft. At the moment, because forces have had to purchase their own aircraft and operate their own aircraft, all forces in England and Wales for their general over police air support units have a rotary wing helicopter. A lot of the tasks which that helicopter does could be achieved more quickly and more cheaply with alternative airframes, perhaps a fixed wing. So part of the NPAS proposals in the future would be to have a mix of assets, so that we can deliver a variety of air platforms to do a variety of different jobs. There may be times we need to move a firearms team about a county quickly so a large helicopter would be better, something like the Metropolitan and Devon and Cornwall operate. Under NPAS we would have access to those aircraft. There may be times when you need a small fast helicopter, but equally well and particularly for directed patrols, there may be times when a fixed wing aircraft which has a 6 or 7 hour enduration, might be a better air asset to deploy. As a single force, it's very difficult for you to have a fleet of aircraft at your disposal, as a national entity we will have that in the future. "


Where to start !

[timex]

So thats it then, 10 brand new V22 Osprey....
:ugh::ugh::ugh:

[SilsoeSid]

Susan Carte;

"actually, until forces sign on the dotted line and transfer their asset and first payments are made, at the moment there is nothing to say that you have joined NPAS, so it's very difficult , there is no exit strategy at the moment where you have the ability to tote up and change your mind at this minute in time, but we really want an indication what it's likely to be."


Anyone else here organised a Christmas Party?

You get the numbers in the autumn of those who say they will attend, arrange the venue, book entertainment, meal, raffle prizes etc etc.
The closer you get to the event the numbers slowly dwindle.
The costs of the venue, ent, food etc remain the same, but this now has to be borne by fewer people, until it gets to the point where, when you have to inform people how much they need to pay, and you either end up with a lot of disgruntled party goers or fork out on cancellation fees !

Mess do's were so much easier with that 3 line whip.....I thought that was always in the NPAS arsenal !