UK Police helicopter budget cuts

[PANews]

Make up your mind Berty, either they paid for THEIR rooms or they didn't.

I said they paid for their rooms and you say they paid for there [sic] rooms..... not quite sure how I can retract or apologise for getting it right!

So they paid for the rooms they occupied right?

Yes it might have been considerably cheaper than Bilbao but they paid.... the evidence is pretty conclusive.... Berty told me....:ok:

And while this was no Spanish waiter* giving an overview it might have been better from the horses mouth - there are confused members of industry out there and I am sure I do not know what to tell them. And as we know police persons do not talk to the press [openly]!

INAER*

[berty]

Oh yeah, right - INAER are well placed to provide incisive thought into NPAS. At least Manuel would have been more amusing.

Yes you are WRONG, please don't twist the truth and make something out of nothing. The point is that this was a User Working Group, not a NPAS planning meeting (as stated in the May edition). Forces have always paid for UWGs. EXCEPT this one was the first joint UWG - bringing together the 135 and 902 communities - and held at Ryton to save money. My understanding is that forces paid about 1/3 of the cost of previous events.

So you should be hailing this as something positive, not negative

PAvNews increasingly seems not to reflect the reality of the situation, and the opinion of the overwhelming majority of people currently involved in providing air support. It should. We need it to.

[PANews]

Well done Berty, finger on the pulse then. So who were you before five posts ago?

A confident old hand?

Perhaps someone already outed you as someone who talks to themselves yet cannot work out the yawning difference between paid and paid. If PAvCon can be free so can NPAS briefings that finally bring together the two inexplicable groups of 135 and 902, it isn't rocket science. Yes its positive but unfortunately I never got that well overdue bit of brilliant news dripped to me.... let alone supplied as a nice press release from those oh so secretive NPAS chaps. If they are so sensitive that stuff in the guessing world might stray they could do something about it now.... after all it is public money and the police are accountable despite their illusions that they are not working under that rule ...... perhaps you had better be my correspondent in future to ensure I do get it right.

Bear Traps all round..... Do mind the bear traps.

Reality

INAER as in Staverton.:ugh: I am sure there are no Manuel's there just now.

[berty]

I am aware of the Staverton link, doesn't change much. Exit stage left for me. I won't be drawn any further into this. Sound advice, too many Tigerfish traps.

So adios amigo. But I will always think of you as my own little (not that little) Manuel.

"I know nothing, noootthhhhing"

[lovepolicehelicopter]

i wouldnt say i a master of air support unit but from a person outside of that field i have pretty good knowledge through looking it up some might call me sad i just look at it like my hobbie and it what i enjoy will always be a fan of air support unit always have and always will just some people are clueless and think fook off police helicopter it 3am you woke me up when soon when all the cuts have happened it will be when you need the helicopter it never fooking here you can picture them words from the idiots already but that is uk im sorry to say if it a waste of money to they need it themselves and to move bases around passed the 15 or 20 min window is silly aswell as you still have ASU but at much later time it will seem pointless and will be alot of AREA SEARCHED NO TRACE so then bean counters will get it in there head to scrape helicopter all together :eek: some people has mentioned tasks like check a scene of rtc will be ok for longer transit times check noone thrown from the vehicle however even that might be dodgy if they banged there head against windscreen and through concussion started to walk off it has happened and the helicopter managed to find them however in 20mins people even injured ones can walk fair distance suspects and vehicle no chance and make chance of fail to stops as even now before helicopter on scene they get lost and no further sightings im sure people will back me up on that statement i wanna be police air observer one day and will try and live my dream but by then who knows where ASU if atall will be there let me say this ASU was at the all time best before the cuts and it now seems to of done it job and will be a slow death people moan about what helicopters used for and is it worth them for the cost of the crime well let say somebody stills a mars bar 40 odd pence and make off from officers however end up on the roof yes for 40 odd pence however we all remember the met police officer who fell through the roof and died that could of been for 40 odd pence but the ASU can now attend and put the containment in OFFICER SAFETY they are HUMANS who have lives aswell.

at the end of the day companys have budgets because they can meet budgets if they plan better to meet targets a supermarket has sales v waste as they can be met and companys have staff costs as they know it can be met YOU CANT BUDGET POLICE AS YOU CANT BUDGET CRIME that the bottom line you cant say well sunday the helicopter goes up once then monday the helicopter goes up twice CRIMS dont work shifts and all i can say is the first fail to stop ASU 20mins away the 1st public death through vehicle failing to stop through the cuts and then gets away IPCC will have a field day............ rant over ASU down but carry on fighting

thanks i dont know everything but do give it a try

[J.A.F.O.]

A very interesting post.

[lovepolicehelicopter]

just one more comment missed out people say what point of sending helicopter if they get away with it was it really worth it well................. we know justice system is crap but have to live with it so it better to raise and put them in front of the courts then never know....... we can always turn round and say to members of public and firearm officers sorry cant attend today they might get away with it!!!!!!

[Coconutty]

Such words of support, if they reflect the general feeling "out there",
are good to hear - perhaps there is hope yet :ok:

( Spelling and grammar checkers might make for easier reading though ;) )

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[SilsoeSid]

A very interesting post.

There are quite a few interesting posts popping up on rotorheads at the moment, posts that seem to confirm the need for this ! (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/SRG1199.pdf)
;)

[Fly_For_Fun]

SS...nice :D

[Eurocopper]

Re Chiltern and "inappropriate" use of helicopter, Chalgrove is a village right next to RAF Benson and "Bolkow" might care to note that it was NOT a 2am flight.

[PANews]

Whitehead,

You are not the only one frustrated.

I guess that the NPAS team is keeping the lid so well down on the subject that it is very difficult to keep the thread alive on a day-to-day basis. They are either being very successful or getting the same effect purely by accident.......

BUT.... and this is perhaps important... the little bits of real information that do leak out are rattling the NPAS cage from time to time and from a recent post I am pretty sure that NPAS are very much on this thread and watching.

[Art of flight]

One advantage of the whole process taking much longer than the initial announcement indicated, is that 'regions' are getting time to get used to working within the obvious limitations of the plan. There is more time to present statistical feedback up 'the chain' and to gradually change methods of working, rather than the shock of it happening on one date. Some units have a fixed end date, some are gradually running down and those that are staying are evolving to meet future requirements.

I'd say there's a lot happening, and a lot of people are applying gentle pressure to make the best of the limited resources, it's just not happening at the pace some thought it would. Those working in the ASUs are very aware of how things are going in their region and besides getting on with the job are already tackling the issues of operating over greater distances.
We don't really expect management to make big announcements every few weeks so there is little 'fact' available day to day.

Just a suggestion, for those who work at an ASU, why not plan a visit to an ASU outside of your region during the next downtime, you may find out whats going on beyond the horizon and may be able to offer your way of doing certain things. For those who don't work at an ASU, give them a call and arrange a visit to actually get some face to face time with those doing this job.

[SilsoeSid]

Art of flight;
I'd say there's a lot happening,

Go on then...enlighten us !

For starters, how about telling us how BTP feel about being told to provide 5 staff to operate the flight desk. I'd be glad just to hear that they have even been approached on the subject.

Tell us how the station commanders of the various RAF stations reacted to being told about the Police ASU that was going to operate from their base. Again, I'd be glad just to hear that they have even been approached on the subject.



With 10 months to go, I think you get my drift !

[timex]

One advantage of the whole process taking much longer than the initial announcement indicated, is that 'regions' are getting time to get used to working within the obvious limitations of the plan.

Really, when will that be happening?

There is more time to present statistical feedback up 'the chain' and to gradually change methods of working, rather than the shock of it happening on one date. Some units have a fixed end date, some are gradually running down and those that are staying are evolving to meet future requirements.

As above

I'd say there's a lot happening, and a lot of people are applying gentle pressure to make the best of the limited resources, it's just not happening at the pace some thought it would. Those working in the ASUs are very aware of how things are going in their region and besides getting on with the job are already tackling the issues of operating over greater distances.

No we're not, no decisions, no info and no Idea of dates..


We don't really expect management to make big announcements every few weeks so there is little 'fact' available day to day.


Yes we do, thats why you have updates.


Just a suggestion, for those who work at an ASU, why not plan a visit to an ASU outside of your region during the next downtime, you may find out whats going on beyond the horizon and may be able to offer your way of doing certain things. For those who don't work at an ASU, give them a call and arrange a visit to actually get some face to face time with those doing this job.

What makes you think other ASU's know whats going on, certainly the ones near us are no wiser than the rest of us, plus you can actually phone the guys. If you don't work at an ASU why should you visit one?

These are just some of the questions we'd like to be answered....

We have x Pilots on our Unit, how many will lose their jobs?

Will we go to 20 hours or stay on 24 hours?

Will we be 3 plus a floater or 4 plus a floater?

Will the floater be given another type rating to cover the different A/C types?

How many Observers will we lose?

How many Observers will be floaters?

How many will be trained on the other A/C types?

Do you work for NPAS?

[J.A.F.O.]

Art of Flight

I'm surprised at you, you should know better than to bring reasonable, reasoned discussion here. People want to have a good old rant and shout and the last thing they need is someone like you being all decent, equitable and fair in your analysis.

Personally, I've given up shouting and think you're spot on. :ok:

[SilsoeSid]

AoF/JAFO;
Just a suggestion, for those who work at an ASU, why not plan a visit to an ASU outside of your region during the next downtime, you may find out whats going on beyond the horizon and may be able to offer your way of doing certain things. For those who don't work at an ASU, give them a call and arrange a visit to actually get some face to face time with those doing this job.

If only you had told NPAS this before the initial big announcement day! Which camp do the 'implimentation team' fall into, those that work at an ASU or those that don't?

I don't recall many visits to any units by anyone in reference to the national plan before it was announced....do you?

[SilsoeSid]

So,

Which units aren't closing down iaw the initial plan?
Which units are closing down that weren't in the initial plan?
Which units are moving that wasn't in the initial plan?
Which units aren't moving iaw the initial plan?

Do we really need to re-read the first posts after the announcement to find out that the same questions need answering?

:confused:
;)

[PANews]

As I recall it this NPAS 'thing' was conceived at a time when the Government in command were in denial that there was a problem to be solved.... since then a new government has come in and yes we are in a state. However as stated NPAS predated that so either someone outside Government [ACPO?] created this plan without reference to government policy pre-May 2010 or the original plan was drastically modified for the October 2010 launch.

I would dispute the joys of any 'Central Control' anyway. C&C as it evolved from a man who knew what he was doing at the end of a local telephone to a system that employed 17-years old 'know nots' miles from the action has clearly shown that as an idea it is flawed whether you have it at street duty level or in aviation.

Its main flaw is that the 'know nots' need a very steep learning curve to get over just the location let alone what is required of the resource. And the person-power it 'saves' is a total illusion [been there seen it got the T shirt] which ends up with massive 21st century control rooms with staff doubled or trebbled because they cannot sit in front of a PC for more that 2 hours at a stint......

Its the history of recent policing really and aviation is just getting it from people who never stayed at the sharp wend long enough to learn the ropes....

Yea I know I am an old git but my observations on this cannot all be wrong because of that!

[Art of flight]

Well, thats got it going again!

There are those on here who seem to think they or I, may have influence beyond 'our' pay grade and role, I'm certainly under no such illusion. The national plan is what it is and my opinion of its present format will be kept to myself. I do however continue to try to make sure that what I can influence I do. I regularly cover up to 5 counties with one aircraft, so you might agree (or not) that I and my colleagues in east anglia have been to the future and we're learning lessons from it. Yes, I'd like to see a system where we have an aircraft in every county, but I've been told we're broke and the plan is going ahead, I can't influence that. What I can do is prod those around me to think about the 'real' aspects such as fuel and infrastructure that need to be in place before we 'go live'.

I'm not aware that we've only got 10 months to have it all working, and even that date is slipping, I would have thought this will all take 5 to 10 years to be joined up so I don't expect management to tell me every comment of every meeting as soon as it's happened. Some of you need to wake up and realise where you are in the organisation, influence what you can, continue to fly, safely and let the management get on with the big picture. If you're a pilot or observer the job isn't changing so just do it to the best of your ability, of course if you are in a position to influence the bigger picture then get on with it and stop bleating on here!

[standby standby]

Breaking news

NPAS have managed to secure the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, this will then be used to purchase a number of Flying Monkeys being held in Chester zoo since the end of filming 'The wizard of Oz'

Following in depth meeting in the middle East it has been confirmed that as of April 2012 all police officers will be issued a magic lamp, when rubbed the ASU Genie will appear and ask how we can be of assistance. The Genie and only the Genie will then contact the control room where 'The Chuckle Brothers' have been employed. They will then adopt the 'To you, to me!' deployment method where the aircraft will fly back and forth and achieve very little.

During a session on a OuiJa board Mike Read was contacted and asked to assist with decision for locating the units. These were confirmed by the UEOs standing in a line, Mike asking them where they want to be, followed by him shouting...'RUN AROUND.......GO!' The UEOS then ran to where they wanted to be and those deemed to be in the wrong location were 'Binned'

I'll keep you all informed of any future developments

;)

[Digital flight deck]

Standby Standby... At last a reasonable and balanced view of the future. Art of... and JAFO you have now been told where the future lays so be happy and rejoice.

[J.A.F.O.]

J.A.F.O. The number of posts against your name suggests that you must have a great deal of experience, and I will defer to that.

No, it just means I'm gobby and add my two pennorth to lots of things that have nothing to do with me.

[Art of flight]

DFD

Not so sure about the 'happy and rejoicing' and if you know my future (in ASUs) beyond next year then you know more than me or my boss. Between now and then I'll 'plod' along taking each shift as it comes.

JAFO

Thanks for the support, some on here are really a bit too quick to start typing before engaging the thinking organ and attacking others.

WH06

If we had a chat you'd find my concerns are very much in line with all of those you and Sid have listed, I just don't think line managers have the answers yet but are working on them. The only bit you left out of my post when quoting me was the most important bit "given the obvious limitations"

[Digital flight deck]

A of... Touch of humour mate.

[J.A.F.O.]

DFD - Giving your age as 20, that's humour. :E

[zorab64]

AoF - I'd have to add my two-pennyworth of support for your balanced & considered views. Sadly there are too many on this forum who would, in other walks of life, be regarded as NIMBYs, but who should maybe consider more closely how things might be done better, or at less cost - as this is what NPAS is all really about . . . and has been since investigations were first started in Jan '10, with OD & RW going round the country, visiting all Forces & ASUs.
A level of introspection; consideration for the way things are done by other units / regions / areas; and a general appreciation of the sh*t state this country was left in by the Brown-clowns :eek:, would possibly not go amiss, espcially by those who seek to vehemently justify their own existence!

Despite the support above, and as others (as well as I) have previously mentioned, I continue to concur with the views that the "new" service will NOT be an improvement in efficiency or effectiveness, however NPAS try to sell it. :=

[Coconutty]

A o F
If you're a pilot or observer the job isn't changing... Unless your base is closing,
... Unless you're base is moving,
... Unless one of the basics of how you operate, such as the method used to deploy you
( direct deployment - v- Central Control Room deployment ) is changing :rolleyes:

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[Digital flight deck]

JAFO. Depends on the calendar of choice. :ok:

[yme]

I hear that the Essex unit will no longer be moving to Southend, off to Rochester then?

[SilsoeSid]

Isn't Rochester still in Kent?
10 minutes before they actually get into the county of Essex, that'll go down well!

They might as well cover the South East of London while they are there, after all that Met non NPAS unit are based in their county!
;)

[yme]

Like all the other units they will be part of a National Air Operation no longer Essex property. I think!

[SilsoeSid]

Like all the other units they will be part of a National Air Operation no longer Essex property. I think!

That's ok then, because Essex won't be seeing it. Kent will however, despite all those years of not ever feeling the need to have one! $£$£

Anyone seeking 'planning permission' for the operation? I believe the residents round there are pretty 'nimby' after all the motorway and rail works of recent years! Sheppey would be a better base ;-)

[Retro Coupe]

The North West region will, after the apocolypse, consist of GMP, Lancs, Cheshire and North Wales. The theory is that they will each pick up a proportion of the work that Merseyside would have covered. Clearly none of those units are as ideally placed to deal with the hotspots in the Liverpool area as Merseyside are/were from a response time perspective. Maybe that's why there was a police helicopter based at Woodvale in the first place! :ooh:
However, if I were in the central control room deploying an asset to a Merseyside task I'd look to Cheshire first. Why, they've only been operating one shift a day with an annual allowance of 500 hours so perhaps there isn't a lot going on in the Cheshire area and secondly, 3 of the 4 pilots previousy based at Woodvale will be crewing the Cheshire aircraft so their operational knowledge of the Merseyside force area will be invaluable.

[standby standby]

Essex already operate out of Rochester and have done some for a couple of years. An office to operate out of, a pad, fuel, Easytask connection, kitchen.

I dont think they will be moving there permanently just using it as a FOB and staying at Boreham. When tasked in Kent they then land at Rochester and await further tasking.

NPAS will be a new name but ops normal for them, remember NPAS really means RPAS, Regional Police Air Support!

[Art of flight]

Glad to hear 3 of the merseyside guys will be at Cheshire, ops normal for them with the joy of a longer transit to and from the same old tasks.

Those that have been 'providing a collaborative service' to non aircraft counties know all too well how ugly it can get when 2 forces insist you're in the wrong place to be any use to them (then you tell them you need to return to base for fuel before getting to their job), at least on that point the NPAS controller can referee the bun fight!

[PANews]

It does not include anything that is new but CC Hampshire Alex Marshall the ACPO Lead on Air Support has broken the silence with an article on Police Oracle.

UK Police News - In Focus: Airborne Futures | Police Oracle (http://www.policeoracle.com/news/In-Focus:-Airborne-Futures_34347.html)

[Coconutty]

In order to effectively deploy assets under this system, it is essential to have a national dispatch function. Under the NPAS, this centre would receive requests for an aircraft and the nearest aircraft available would be deployed.
Once dispatched the aircraft would then fall under the command and control of the local force command and control centre, allowing local management of the incident in a similar manner as is currently used.
That is what worries me the most - WHO SAYS that it is "essential" to have a National Dispatch function ?
Would it not be better to have a LOCAL dispatch "function" -
to benefit from the EFFICIENCY of a Police Officer needing Air Support requesting it
directly from the Air Support Unit who are best placed to assess viability and respond IMMEDIATELY when required,
but maybe with a National MONITORING function - for flight following,
and with the ability to suggest deployment of alternative aircraft when they are aware it might be more appropriate to do so ?

The problem is (still) that Police Auhorities are being fed stories by NPAS harping on
about how their plan will save money AND make the exisitng Air Support Units more efficient and effective,
but I'd bet they have NOT been told that in REALITY, the move to a National Control Room ( function ),
has the potential to make the service a lot LESS efficient,
with no guarantee that there will be any cost saving at all if the same level of service is to be provided. :ugh:

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[Fortyodd2]

"ACPO Lead on Air Support has broken the silence with an article on Police Oracle"

A shame the opportunity wasn't used to break the "silence" to the 400 or so officers, staff, pilots and engineers who will be the ones trying to make this project work - who, some 8 months after the great launch have still no definite, definitive or solid information to go to work on. :ugh: Communication strategy? Nil Points.

Agree with Coco's summary - the one thing guaranteed to reduce effectiveness and increase response times is a central "Dispatch" system.

[Retro Coupe]

Plans to maximise efficiencies and save money with the creation of a National Police Air Service have been progressing apace since the idea was first unveiled last year.


Really? You wouldn't have thought so from the lack of activity on the NPIA sponsored POLKA website.

[PANews]

Nit picking on some of the items quoted from 'the 2009 report' that the Oracle article seems use as the basis [i.e. excuse] for this whole NPAS project highlights some inaccurate claims about the units not working together.

Before last October ..... seven identical EC135P2+ helicopters were bought .... and there was another group led by West Yorkshire looking at a further 'identical group' purchase when the plug was pulled. These were just the big purchases there are others.

There were a number of consortia operating very efficiently at the time of the October 2010 launch and some of those were working with other groups to cover regions in the same way as it is suggested NPAS will work. The ones that spring to mind are Eastern, North West, Midlands and Yorkshire. Each worked together in varying degrees - it was an ongoing cooperative and progressive endeavour – and from what I understand most of it stopped quite abruptly last October.

Yes there are flaws - mainly surrounding the different values where some units flew 1200 hours a year and others dawdled at 5-600 hours - but they do not make the whole barrel rotten.

So NPAS appears to be built upon a pretty basic set of lies.

[SilsoeSid]

As a result, they were not benefiting from economies of scale in terms of maintenance, pilots or procurement.

So shortly all will be sorted then;

This is how it will be, based on a typical unit...

Maintenance - ECUK
Pilotage - NPAS
Helmets - Alpha
Aircraft - ECUK
Flying Suits - Ballyclare
Boots - Dickies Industrial
Gloves - RAF
T- Shirts - Fruit of the Loom
Jackets / Fleeces - North Face
Torches - Ever Ready
NVGs - DO Systems
Mappage - Transair
Publications - Jeppson
Stationary - Staples
Recording media - PC World
Photographic Eqpt - Nikon
Fuel - Esso
Computers/IT support - Apple
Mobile phones - Nokia
News gathering - Sky
Kitchen facilities - B&Q
Furniture - Leather Land
Cleaning Service - Mrs Mopps Agency
Delivery Service - DHL
Water Fountains - Aquarius



....unless you know differently !

[Fortyodd2]

Nice try Sid, :D
Unfortunately, for a Police contract, apart from ECUK and PC World, none of them would charge enough!!!!!!

[zorab64]

How can people (who know what they're talking about) read this article with anything other than an incredulous sigh? All quotes from the article . . .
In 2009 a review of these functions found that the 31 air support units were all operated independently of one another.
Just for starters, what does he think Thames Valley have been doing since they started; & Cambridge, Essex & Suffolk have all been leaping into each others counties for years. The problems of these operations have always been that, covering another county/area, reduces cover in the original host county and, due to increased transit times (as Art mentions), the service provided is invariably LESS efficient &/or effective!

The new Service will be owned nationally, organised regionally and delivered locally.
How is one (or possibly two) central control room(s) "organising services regionally"? IMO "regional" should be no larger than Northern, Borders & Scotland, Wales, Midlands/Thames, Southwestern, Southern, Southeastern - roughly equating to about 6 counties &, maybe, average 3 aircraft per region, I'd suggest?
How can you "deliver services locally" when you take 30 mins to get there?

However, moving bases would be an expensive option – so the basing model developed takes into account current bases and balances the need to have locally based aircraft suitably positioned to reduce flying times and to provide an appropriate response . . .
So the proposal is to move a number of bases, expensively, and without prior consulation, allowing the proposed new location to set the revenue agenda, rather than NPAS.
The only balance being proposed appears to be that of a cockroach on one end of a see-saw, with an elephant on the other!! (no offence intended to the Elephant!)
"locally based" - not for many. "reduce flying times" - impossible to believe. "appropriate response" - unlikley.

This will reduce the transit time from the base to the incident resulting in a greater time on task for the aircraft.
What a load of b:mad:s - transit times will increase & at least 75% of jobs will see any aircraft arriving later than it should, to offer effective support, anyway. True that some areas will, theoretically, be served by a faster response, but only from base if the aircraft is not on another job 30 mins away!:=

essential to have a national dispatch function
How does this square with organised regionally and delivered locally??

pre-planned events will be managed through a Tasking and Coordination Group process completely defeating any issue of localism, as all requests for attendance at Emergency Services promotion days, fairs, schools etc will no doubt be refused, despite the inestimable value they offer to the "local" community, whilst remaining available for tasking at all times. :ugh: :ugh: :ugh:

The old mantra, "lies, damned lies & statistics", should be changed to "spin, damned lies & statistics" - this is a good example, with all of them poorly presented, IMHO! :uhoh:

[PANews]

I believe that CC Hampshire Alex Marshall should be warmly congratulated on his well presented and well thought through article given exclusively to Police Oracle to reach the widest possible non-aviation police audience.:D

Until he wrote that item it is fair to say that the wider understanding of the UK police aviation community in relation to what NPAS meant was somewhat in the doldrums and uninformed. The result of that void was that this thread was often grasping at straws and liable to drop off the front pages of Pprune for long periods, usually by way of utter boredon with the subject.:bored:

Since then of course that situation has changed .... perhaps forever... a White Star Line moment perhaps.

:E

[PANews]

I never understood the concept of the Mobile Police Station either. Let alone the regular instances where the local Plod would hold a meeting with the people at a given time and place. Surely both instances amounted to a statement that said that the otherwise rare and inaccessible local police were in a specific spot in town so it was safe to go and rob the other places.

If you get a 7 days producer [HO/RT/1] for your documents do you get a dispensation to await the monthly mobile police wagon? Guess not.

The local cop shop here is up for closure - they want to move the staff into the Fire Station down the road. After the usual disjointed discussions they suddenly found that the fire station also wanted to close. Ooooer, that wasn't planned!

Anyway there has been a reprieve this month, they suddenly decided that the might need the pretty [and damned expensive] aerials and recently upgraded digi radio shack in the cop shop yard for the Olympics...... Olympics? Good lord that was a surprise event foisted on them.

So Essex Constabulary will be looking at the closure again in August 2012, if they remember.

OK. Nothing to do with aeronautics, but it does show that there is an awful lot of it about. "Poor planning and not joined up."

It must be the name of a Senior Officers Command Course.:cool:

[B.U.D.G.I.E]

Lets hope the NW lot are hidden away safe because i'm sure it won't belong before the crimes start having a look at where there bases are. But these days they don't have to turn up and do some surveillance to see when they start or finish. They can just sit in their stolen audis looking at what ASU's are doing on twitter with there stolen internet phones.

ASU's really don't help themselves do they. :ugh:

[SilsoeSid]

BUDGIE;
But these days they don't have to turn up and do some surveillance to see when they start or finish. They can just sit in their stolen audis looking at what ASU's are doing on tw@tter with there stolen internet phones.

ASU's really don't help themselves do they. :ugh:


Or simply read the papers, type 'Police Helicopter Bases' into google, call their local police station, and ask or even use the Freedom of Information Act etc etc

Tw@tter entries for example, are done after an ac has returned to its relevant base and sometimes the day or 2 after, so any information gained is old hat and depends on what the crims are doing anyway. (With the cost savings going on its all reactive work anyway) Find me an entry that says, will be deploying after 'The Apprentice' to the Red Lion pub hoping to catch lead thieves! The only way a crim will know where the aircraft will be is to be involved with something that requires the presence of the helicopter :ugh:


They can just sit in their stolen audis looking at what ASU's are doing on tw@tter with there stolen internet phones.

NO! They can see what ASU's have done !:rolleyes:

If that's not the case BUDGIE, and you are able to foretell what an ASU is doing by tw@tter et al, can you please tell me what I will be doing next Friday as I was thinking of taking my knitting in and finishing off that scarf!
:rolleyes:

[standby standby]

Whilst flying a night shift I had what could only be described as a NPAS night.....

Lifted to an incident in another force with a 20 minute response for mispers, 15 minutes into it we get cancelled, turn around and head back to our force and do a few photographic jobs. then called back to that force for a suspect contained, 15 minute transit 10 minutes into it, cancelled 25 minute flight back to base for tea and medals??

Nah can we now go to a force to the north of ours for a suicidal misper?

rotors running refuel, back in the cab, crack on, 20 minute transit and guess what?

cancelled after 10 minutes.

Quote of the evening 'Gentleman we have just completed an NPAS shift, welcome to the future of police aviation, lots of transiting, no results!' :ugh::rolleyes::mad::D

[B.U.D.G.I.E]

How odd my post had a mod. I said tw@tter and it converted it to pprune.

Any way......what happens when the chopper goes in for service or has a 24hr problem. Will they not notice the lack of posts and put 2 and 2 together. :ugh:

[volrider]

Twatter Twutter what ever you want to call it is a joke. All it does is once again let people (the bad ones) have all our secrets as to hours of work and sooner or later information will slip that shouldnt... I agree when its quiet for a couple of days they crims will soon cotton on, they already know the response times etc.
Imagine if we had twooter in WWII my God that would have been entertaining wouldnt it;)

It will be to the detrement of the operational success sooner than later, all because some boss wants to "connect2 with the people.... best way of connecting is catching crims and keeping folk safe, they really dont give sh1t how you do it as long as its done, what next your washing machine engineer twooting about your spin speeds.... the bin man letting you know how much of your waste really is reclaimed... I don't give a monkeys nut all I want them to do is the job not keep telling me like some school kid how fekkin good they are!!!
Huge rant over:ok:
ps I will be banned from twooter after my first post at work:}

[SilsoeSid]

Imagine if we had twooter in WWII my God that would have been entertaining wouldnt it ;)

It would have been brilliant, we wouldn't have had to drop Glyndwr Michael's body off the coast of Huelva, Spain, by submarine and other such shenanigans :ok:




"It was the best of times, it was the worst of times,
it was the age of wisdom, it was the age of foolishness,
it was the epoch of belief, it was the epoch of incredulity,
it was the season of Light, it was the season of Darkness,
it was the spring of hope, it was the winter of despair."
Charles Dickens A Tale of Two Cities 1859

[B.U.D.G.I.E]

boss wants to "connect2 with the people

You forgot the bit about that boss not having a flecking clue what he or she is talking about..:ok:

[volrider]

Yeah I forgot that bit BUDGIE
Sid you are right we could have beaten the Germans much easier with Twooter, but what would have Sky News said about how unfair our troops were in breaking a childs doll when advancing through some war torn town despite heavy casualties....

[PANews]

You may recall that the October 2010 NPAS plan had lots of basing ideas.... there was foggy Colerne and a tranche of unresearched other bases that it seems clear have resulted in the surprised owners and other occupants saying 'No thank you' to unexpected basing proposals.

I just picked up on a confirming story relating to Southend [where the Essex aircraft was supposed to go when the gravel extraction forced them out of Boreham].

Sad and neglected Southend Airport is on the up it seems and welcoming easyJet as its major operator from April 2012. 800,000 passengers initially and more for the future. Stobart Group are pumping £60m in and getting 70 easyJet services per week to 10 different European destinations to help them along.

Why would they want a helicopter cluttering up their airspace? Well I guess that the 'research' only recalled 'sad and neglected' from some ten year old brochure and not what was actually happening.

[zorab64]

Standby standby was obviously following a similar M.O. to a shift we did a month or so ago . . . when we made similar, exasperated, comments! Arrrrrrgggghhhhhhhh :ugh:

[standby standby]

slight departure from the thread...................sorry

'Copsquad' in SKY1 @ 2000 tonight.

Within 30 minutes the program has given out, what in my force are 'protected' details on Air support techniques............I'm :mad: livid! PCs divulging too much info to the camera to make good TV and then give away a covert technique we all use!!!:=

What were they thinking? did noone from that force vet the footage before it was allowed to be aired!!!!:ugh:

Christ on a bike with stabilisers! its worse the Twutter!!!! :*

Once again I apologise :oh:

[B.U.D.G.I.E]

It's stuff like that which will be the demise of air support. :ugh:

[J.A.F.O.]

I didn't see Copsquad (and can barely believe that it isn't some low rent parody) because I don't have rich man's telly but I did see tonight's BBC offering which was ... erm ... interesting.

[B.U.D.G.I.E]

Yeah great work that. Showing the scrote getting away by hiding in the trees and harping on about the thermal camera not being able to see him.

But don't panic if you call his name out using the PA system then he will just come right out.

Genius :eek:

[PANews]

Newspaper talk of course but a lengthy item on air support and 'no money anyway'.... I like the bit where it says they could join NPAS......

Dorset Police could lose boat unit and helicopter (From Bournemouth Echo) (http://www.bournemouthecho.co.uk/news/9104694.Dorset_Police_could_lose_boat_unit_and_helicopter/)

[SilsoeSid]

Dear NPAS,

When someone is appointed to manage the fleet of aircraft, can you make sure that the mic tels leads in the different aircraft are compatable with the various helmet connectors around the bazaars?

Thanks
:ok:

[PANews]

Thanks to some help I have been guided to a recent document on the Essex Police web that provides details of a recent approach by the North Midlands Air Support Unit to the Eastern Consortium with a view to join them in their maintenance provision. ECPM offers a cheaper service than available via industry [ie what EC UK is offering] at less than the NPIA posted rates.

The proposal offers some significant reductions in cost to all of those involved [but] the document tells us quite clearly that it 'gives them a lesser service at lower cost than is currently provided to existing Consortium members, which for them represents an acceptable position.'

So there it is in black and white – bail out time .... save money now as the aircraft are going from your control in 2012 and you are unlikely to get a great big thankyou for continuing to spend money on air support unnecessarily...... so a lesser service is OK now. Looks like no increase of maintainers at ECPM despite a 25% increase in workload.


http://www.essex.police.uk/authority/pdf/EPA12511.pdf

[zorab64]

PAN - interesting document - any idea what these three quotes from it mean, if they're not planning another engineer (I'm told they've got 4 engineers at the moment, so one more makes a 25% increase, by my calculations)?
"By utilising contract engineering staff"
"will benefit from increased engineering capacity"
"The Consortium will realise the use of an additional full time, experienced, licensed and type rated engineer for all scheduled maintenance Inspections and most unscheduled events . . . engineering availability in respect of hangar floor staff will increase by 25%."

From para 4.3, I'm presuming "response time" means engineering response to unscheduled events, which is only a problem very occasionally for most 135s, IMHO.

As the 50 hour is basically only a compressor wash, I would have thought that authority for this could be delegated to a pilot - it's just a daily rinse with different fluid in it, after all!

Overall, so long as the N.Mids a/c behaves itself like a normal 135, they should notice little difference from their previous provider, it just won't cost them so much! :ok:

[PANews]

Bang to rights!:\

The dangers of reading on-line documents! I will have to print it out and get the words in the right place before I PAN it.

There is a Nottingham version out there but I will print that and read it properly before writing here!

Thanks.

[Coconutty]

Have North Mids ASU used the new engineering facility at the Eastern Consortium yet ?

There's a full 2 week gap in their Daily Activity Sheet from 30/5/11 to 13/06/11 ?

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[Fortyodd2]

Coco,
That would be the scheduled 400 hour, tail boom reinforcing plate mod and a couple of avionic snags then. A/C in on time and out on time :).

PAN, 2+2 = 4, not 7

[PANews]

There are currently loads of documents out there that seem, in the main, to be various forces introducing NPAS to their Police Authority. Most of these are naturally dated October-November last year and follow a standard pattern as far as content goes.

This year, well in the last month or so, the documents have been such as those already mentioned between North Mids and the ECPM members. Clearly the prices required by the maintainers went up at the end of March and then there is a presentation to the PA up north and then other documents setting out the intent. As the Essex document was dated within the last week it would seem that the 'deal' has not been agreed by all parties just yet. That does not mean NM have not been to ECPM but I expect not just yet. Potentially a July 1 start but maybe August 1. If the 400 has just been done [by EC?] there will not be a mad rush now. The additional engineer I missed is not likely to start next week [and may not be required next year].

I guess the above you will have read for yourselves anyway [and arrived at your own conclusions].

There is another document out there that is dated 23 June and it is a briefing by Hampshire/NPAS to the Hants Police Authority. 'Proposal for a National Police Air Service (NPAS)' and apparently penned by the ACPO Lead.

The content is pretty much identical to everything that was written in October 2010. Despite the earlier post here about 'Southend' being dropped that and Colerne etc remain the same. All the same aircraft deletions and dates of implementation.

So, according to that document its all 'no change' despite all our squabbling here and our expectation that NPAS would evolve - and an assumption that me might sit on the sidelines and 'discuss' as we see it evolve as a result of the NPAS team learning lessons.

According to this document the plan has not evolved, it is as written prior to consultation - the 2010 plan remains the plan for 2012.:ouch:

[Fortyodd2]

PAN - stop guessing & fishing. ECPM have been providing engineering to NMids since 31st May. FACT. The 400 was carried out at Wattisham together with the tail ring mod. FACT. Happy now?

[PANews]

Delirious.

I thought Pprune was all about guessing and fishing [and making a pratt of oneself from time to time]. If I hadn't guessed wrongly we still wouldn't have known.

Looks like I will have to [wrongly] guess what I need to wrongly guess about next to find out whats really happening. :confused:

Why are you so p***** off about it being made public if you are going to blurt it out anyway?

[J.A.F.O.]

Perhaps, FortyOdd, feels that journalists spend a lot of time guessing and calling it news.

But, hey, that's just a guess.

[Art of flight]

J.A.F.O.

Only you could say so much, with so few words!:D

[zorab64]

PAN - yes, this is a rumour network, but it also relies on journo's reading official, public domain, documents carefully, rather than blurting out stuff quickly because time hasn't been spent absorbing the detail which, to your credit, you admit. :ok: It's the knee-jerk (maybe careless?) posts that actually get up people's noses, whereas gentler probing & questioning will more likely receive confirmation from those in the know . . . than incorrect "statements", which will attract brick-bats! := (I'm sure you know all this already!)

Back to the thread, however. There are a number of forces that have seen what's proposed, don't really like the way it's being done, but realise that unless some effort is made locally, to show that the proposals either work or don't (on a smaller, local, scale), the writing will be on the wall for a number of units. It will be a lot easier to refute the NPAS shambles with evidence, as a result of experience, than to just wait for the chop a la Marie Antoinette! (Looking for guillotine emoticon!)

The NM/WM/EM/CC "civil partnership" is just the latest example of this joint working.
The forces in East Anglia have been in similar fashion to this for some while, with slight adjustments in the light of the demise of Norfolk - which was always going to happen, it just came about a little earlier than expected. The formation of ECPM, by the same forces, was a forward-thinking move (long before NPAS), but one that made business, operational & financial sense for all forces - the offer to add NM into the fold is the logical progression of a maturing business, which should be able to realise improvements for all partners, either financially &/or operationally, depending on which force is looking at it. In addition, they are likely to be losing an aircraft next year, so it makes sense to bring others into the fold early. In the longer term, they would appear to be sensibly carving a niche, which will be difficult to argue against when NPAS finally get their s**t in one sock!

And for those who say public operations should not be running businesses, that's exactly the way things should be going, IMHO. It brings competition into the market, utilises existing HR & financial resources, and improves value for public money, rather than the virtual monopoly that has existed for many years. Sensible collaboration (as with the recent aquisition of 5/6 EC135s) is one of the ways to make significant savings that NPAS are looking for.

[Fortyodd2]

"Why are you so p***** off about it being made public"

I'm not, but I'd already posted the info once and it's been "public" since the 1st of June :ugh:

"Sensible collaboration (as with the recent aquisition of 5/6 EC135s) is one of the ways to make significant savings that NPAS are looking for".

Could somebody please tell NPAS!

[PANews]

Sorry FortyOdd I missed the post where you had said it had happened [and still cannot find it] but thanks for the clarification anyway.

There seems to be an expectation that [unlike eveyone else] that because I only have one handle [unlike everyone else] I will not open my trap unless its 100% Kosher. Well I repeat [again] I do not [and will not] be so constrained!

There is a sea of disinformation around and I am as bad as anyone at being temporarily duped [but hopefully not for too long each time] by the duff stuff.

It goes back 40 odd years when you are told by the grizzled old skipper to stand in the middle of the road and spout in a loud and authorative voice.... [hoping to hide your very red and youthful face face in the shadow of the helmet]

"Did anyone see what happened?"

The reply as we all know is usually a wall of silence and a wish to get out of there asap.

Then the seemingly daft questions are asked face to face and finally you ask one daft enough to get the tart and superior reply.

So thanks, I got the answer and its been a long long time since I flushed up over being the pratt who asked!:\

But I am still remain puzzled at why the very recent Hampshire CC report to the Hants PA is apparently identical to the October 2010 report [and I have not yet done a word by word check between the two, so we are talking flavour here].

I know what is said here and on other organs of opinion should not have any bearing on the NPAS plan but I would have thought that the [alleged Pprune reported] pressures from elsewhere [ie South Yorkshire CC, Dyfed-Powys, Southend Airport] would have resulted in a significant or at least readily identifiable change in the plans in the last eight months. Even if you totally discount the Pprune stuff some of the other material is real enough and supported by Police Authority minutes.

'Puzzled' is not a statement of fact by the way...... more a 'Did anyone....'

[J.A.F.O.]

because I only have one handle [unlike everyone else] I will not open my trap unless its 100% Kosher. Well I repeat [again] I do not [and will not] be so constrained!

Well said, PAN. Why should a journalist be made to wait until they have the facts before they go public? Hear, hear.

JAFO (My only handle)

[RJC]

From the local Cambridge paper, looks like Cambs considering ditching QH88?

Cambridge News | Latest News Headlines From Cambridge City & Cambridgeshire | National News By Cambridge News | Cash-strapped police set to ditch force helicopter (http://www.cambridge-news.co.uk/Home/Cash-strapped-police-ditch-force-helicopter-28062011.htm)

Or from the Cambs Police website...

Cambridgeshire Constabulary (http://www.cambs.police.uk/news/newsitem.asp?NewsID=6033)

[Retro Coupe]

From the local Cambridge paper, looks like Cambs considering ditching QH88?



As Cambridge were one of the units scheduled to be axed under the grand plan, have they decided to jump before they are pushed, or is this a way of disguising the fact to the Cambridgeshire public that they were due to lose their helicopter whether they wanted to or not?

[Eurocopper]

Which goes a long way towards explaining how ECPM will meet the additional engineering requirements of North Midlands ASU.

[Digital flight deck]

I would suspect that the engineering man hours required for the T2 from North Mids would be a lot less than the 902 from Cambridgeshire so when it is gotten rid of it would allow for more flexibility in the engineering service from ECPM .

[Phil Space]

The good news in Norfolk is that despite the police helicopter no longer flying around the county every day life goes on.

The toy has gone and the big bosses at Plod HQ in Wymondham now have to justify bringing a helicopter in to the area.

Missing persons and kids stealing cars are I just getting on with their lives.

I have never seen one of those Border Force/Road Wars/Police type shows where a helicopter ever got a major crime gang to several years in court.

It was alway petty crime with petty rap over the knuckles justice costing a fortune for the big toy in the sky.

[zorab64]

PAN & JAFO - me likewise (just the one handle) hence previous posts expressing the need for sensible/careful, but appropriately authorititive & informed, anonimity!

Re Cambridgeshire - someone seems to have been sold the NPAS mission statement . . . will still provide that air support across Cambridgeshire, but make better use of the helicopters already in service in both the Chiltern and Eastern Region . . . and . . .save as much as £0.5 million each year and still get 500 hours flying time.

But how much of that will be spent in transit, & how much on task? :ugh: :ugh:

Digital FD - from what I've been led to believe, engineering planning is likely to become somewhat easier! :ok:

[Fortyodd2]

". . . will still provide that air support across Cambridgeshire, but make better use of the helicopters already in service in both the Chiltern and Eastern Region . . ."

Would that be the Chiltern Aircraft at Henlow that's also being withdrawn or have I missed something??? :confused::confused:

[zorab64]

40 Odd - Take a deep breath before reading . . . No, that would be the Chiltern Unit, with the almost brand-new base, that was getting the chop but, since the Met don't want to join the party (to Police the area within easy reach to the North of them) until sometime after the other party next summer, if ever, would appear to have had a "temporary" stay of exectution! (Need that guillotine emoticon again!) :mad:

[Fortyodd2]

:DWell, Hurrah and Huzzah!! :D
For once , I'm happy to have missed something!
I could, (at a push), understand losing either Cambridge or Henlow but both was too big a gap to expect the Met, Benson, Suffolk and EMids to fill and not reduce the cover elsewhere.....
........After all, isn't it supposed to be about increased efficiency and no less effective???

[SilsoeSid]

May I re-ask my question from 4 June?

Which units aren't closing down iaw the initial plan?
Which units are closing down that weren't in the initial plan?
Which units are moving that wasn't in the initial plan?
Which units aren't moving iaw the initial plan?

Anyone remember what the plan was?
Something like;

The National Police Air Service will have 23 aircraft at 20 bases.
It is not clear if police forces in Scotland and Northern Ireland plan to follow suit.
British Transport Police will be in charge of the service's command and control structure.
A "shadow service" will begin next year and the full national service will roll out in 2012.
The service, which will also have three spare choppers, will provide 24-hour cover with a 20-minute response time for 97% of the population of England and Wales.

Essex to Southend.
Dorset to Bournemouth.
Norfolk/Suffolk 1 at Honnington.
Sussex and Surrey one aircraft Dunsfold.
3 aircraft for spares. 2x135 and 1xMD902
West Mids aircraft to wolverhampton 2 aircraft for central counties.
Western Counties (Avon, Somerset, Gloucester, Wilts) 1 aircraft based at RAF Colerne.
Merseyside, South Yorks, Cambs, Dyfed-Powys, Henlow aircraft all withdrawn from service.



So far members here have said here;

"Met don't want to join the party."
"Essex unit will no longer be moving to Southend, off to Rochester ?"
"Chiltern Unit, would appear to have had a "temporary" stay of exectution!"


Are BTP still doing central command?
Anyone yet understand what a shadow service is?
At 4am for example, will we really be able to get to 97% of the public within 20 mins?
Does the National Police Air Service officially now not include the Met, Scotland and N.Ireland?


These and many more such questions being unanswered somewhere near you soon!

[idle stop]

Moving the Essex aircraft to Rochester makes perfect sense. That way, Kent get to keep the helicopter they never had (except in their imagination), and it'll probably be a SPIFR machine based on top of a hill at an airfield with only an NDB as a navaid. (But no procedure.)

[Art of flight]

It's sure nice to fly the SPFIR machines but without any sort of instrument qualification it wouldn't matter what aids are available at Rochester, a real 'achilies heel' to roaming multiple large counties on limited fuel at night. About time this little 'industry' of ours matured and got serious about pilot qualifications rather than the sticking plaster reactive approach to disasters that we've suffered for too many years.

We've been told the grand plan, at least equip us with the right training and qualifications to attempt it safely. Without them the only way is to play it safe and turn down tasking if it's at all doubtful that we can reasonably get back to base safely VFR before the end of the shift. I'm not sure there'd be a plan 'B' when aircraft aren't where they're supposed to be when the early turn arrive!

[Droopy]

I know a lot of people do police work because of what it is, but you'd want to be pretty sure about retention of staff once they had an IR...

[PANews]

This story about the Essex Aircraft to Rochester seems to have no basis in hard copy print.

Nearly everything talked through on Pprune seems to be suffering from the same problem.

The potential for South Yorkshire to retain their aircraft is in the same mould.

The reason I say this is that most recent report by CC Hampshire Alex Marshall, ACPO lead on air support, to his Police Authority ['The Marshall Plan'] seems to state categorically that the plan in June 2011 is near enough identical to the October 2010 plan.

Until that can be explained [like he wrote it 6 months ago but forgot to publish it] we seem to have an impasse.

[Art of flight]

Droopy,

I hear what you're saying, some minor HR contract details would take care of retention as they already do for any other training. I work directly employed and it's already in my contract that I would need to repay pro-rata costs for training that gave me a marketable qualification if I leave early (CRMI/type ratings/TRE/TRI etc). I tend to think we're a fairly settled bunch and given that pay and conditions are as fair as they can be in this job and there aren't any other jobs for 50+ pilots now or in the next few years, there wouldn't be a rush to the exit just because of the IR.
Just my opinion, I love the job and the people in it, just get frustrated that for a moderate investment we can safely cover some very important foreseeable situations.

PAN

I think if I were in charge I'd think things are going 'pretty much' to plan, a few minor tweeks to individual units here and there, some putting up good reasons to stay, some already getting in line and making friends with long standing neighbours before the start date. Of course i'm not in charge and wouldn't want to be!

[Coconutty]

I just had another read of the document published by West Midlands Police Authority ( see post #1472 on 16/5/11 ),
where it discusses commencing a Central Region ASU during June 2011,
and interestingly - as one of the forces also listed to move bases in the original NPAS plan, there is no mention of this.

Is it in the Public domain yet, as to whether they are going to move or not ?

Also interesting that this "Shadow Service" will :
... provide insight into the operation of the future service but at no extra cost.... so not ( yet ) fulfilling the objectives of a more efficient and less costly service, although :

It is anticipated that the creation of the Shared Services will create savings to this budget through shared procurement and better tasking arrangements.So "some" savings to be made, but no mention of the increased efficiency :rolleyes:

Hey Ho - Tomorrow's another day - so is the one after ;)

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[zorab64]

PAM, Idle, Silsoe & others - I think you'll find that the Essex > Rochester post was a wind-up to enliven this thread. An even shorter pilot wouldn't be able to reach the pedals! := .

Art has a good point re IRs but, unless aircraft are based at appropriately equipped bases, they wouldn't be able to get home, whether pilots were rated or not. You'd probably need even more base moves than have so far been proposed.

[SilsoeSid]

Instrument ratings, NVG, training, blimey that lot costs money, they don't save it !

While those that operate around us have Instrument Ratings as a rule, yet only operate during daylight hours; and others have NVGs, but don't operate 24 hrs; it will only take a serious incident for anything to be officially said about it, let alone any action taken!

Perhaps we are starting a slippery slope that needs a bit of grit before this incident takes place!

[hands_on123]

Police helicopter called to help in hunt for flasher in Norwich - News - Eastern Daily Press (http://www.edp24.co.uk/news/police_helicopter_called_to_help_in_hunt_for_flasher_in_norw ich_1_950975)

This aircraft is no longer based at Norwich, I think it's based in Cambridge or Essex now, since the demise of Sterling.

A valuable use of tax-payers money in the current climate?

[SilsoeSid]

A valuable use of tax-payers money in the current climate?

An answer to anyone that picks on any task that a police helicopter attends;

What if it was your house/car/property/family that was attacked/burgled or otherwise interfered with by a criminal !
Would you dial 999 and say, "Please come and investigate and have a go catching the criminal and returning my property... but don't use the helicopter with all its technology that could efficiently catch the criminal that has entered the everyday life of my family !

I don't think so.


In answer to the flasher link;
Would you think the same if it was your daughter/wife/girlfriend/son that was flashed at, knowing that this person was still out there likely to easily hide from officers and get away, perhaps doing something worse the next time he is out!

I don't think so !



Freedom has a price :ok:

[SilsoeSid]

The shadow service....revealed !


YouTube - ‪OFAH The Sh a dow‬‏


When the phone rings,
Who knows what it brings.
Will it be your force area,
or somewhere scarier ?

Without the right kit,
You could be right in the spit.
But worry no longer,
You'll be saving loads of wonga !

:ok:

[hands_on123]

So if Police helicopters cost £1,000,000 per hour to operate, then it would still be a justified expenditure?

I'm not saying they don't do good work, and in an ideal world, there would be more. But the reality is they cost an awful lot to operate and I imagine that money would be more effective in going towards other more cost-efficient iniatives, maybe ones that prevent crime, as oppose to chasing car thieves across fields just for them to get a 6 month sentence and do it all over again. ie we need to address the cause of crime.

Just look at the USA, they have -tons- of police helicopters, every county, state, region etc has one, and they have crime levels way in excess of the UK. Often these machines are just "toys for boys" and regional police chiefs deciding they want one to make their region/county seem more important.

[Retro Coupe]

Don't treat everthing you read in the media as the gospel truth. It could be that the helicopter did not deploy specifically to that task but was already airborne and was able to assist ground patrols with a search. As the article suggests this was not the first occurrence of its type in that area, which means there's probably a repeat offender who clearly needs to be caught.
We should all be grateful that we have the airborne resources to deal with crimes of all types, but temper that with the knowledge that come the revolution our effectiveness will decrease as transit times do the reverse.

[Digital flight deck]

Hands on, you show an extraordinary ignorance on the subject that you pass judgment on. The helicopter serving the good people of Norfolk comes from Suffolk, and is funded out of current expenditure in a joined up approach to air support. And the operational costs that you suppose could be the case is hilarious in its obtuseness. The amount of money saved by a 20 min flight discounting areas that would otherwise have to be searched by police officers on the ground, is enormous and it leaves all those officers available for other crime detection and prevention. As far as the sentencing of offenders is concerned, you should wag your finger and poke your stick in the direction of the CPS.

(TOP TIP = know something of what you are talking about) :ugh:

[Art of flight]

123...

There's more to these things than the press put out, that particular incident is still on going so no more to say other than DFD is spot on. Those that do this day and night will tell you that 'flashers' get away with it for a while, then they need something more, thats when it can get really nasty! The helicopter was the ONLY asset that could visually contain that area whilst officers searched. Tell you what, lets advise the fire brigade not to attend a small fire with an expensive tender, just pop round in the station car with a hand held, then you'd complain that expensive tenders were rarely being used so why not get rid of them.......then there's a big fire:ooh:

[Helinut]

123,

used wisely, police helicopters have an important role in crime prevention too. It is often forgotten, but they change criminal behaviour in all sorts of ways. There are lots of examples where the scrotes changed their behaviour when helicopters have been introduced, or changed their deployment to focus on certain criminal activity.

If the NPAS proposals see the light of day as declared, I suspect we will see some criminal behaviour changing back to what it used to be before a rapid airborne response became likely. Because response times in some places will be much longer, the crims may change their behaviour and be much more relaxed about what they are doing.

Whether or not those changes will be reported is another matter.

The actions of the "recipients" of the air support service demonstrate its power, by repeatedly trying to destroy it, as criminals have over the last few years. They would not bother to do that, if they did not think it was effective in helping to catch them and/or prevent them engaging in their business.

[Lokon]

Rumour has it that Dyfed Powys are now keeping their helicopter for about 18 month and that it will then be replaced by a fixed wing?
....and the rats are starting to leave the NPIA sinking ship before they dispand at the end of the year, NT will be the only one left soon!

[Coconutty]

Rats & Sinking ships eh ?

What analogy will describe the Police Authorities - who are currently being persuaded to "trial" regional "shadow services" in preparation for a National scheme,
and have agreed to do so to assess the potential cost savings and increased efficiency,
when the Police Authorites are disbanded in the Government's other plan to introduce elected Police Commissioners ?

Who will take up the cause to protect the exisiting services then ??? :\

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[hands_on123]

That's debatable, I think this is just the same syndrome as fire engines engines/EMS helicopters etc being attacked. ie they represent "the state"

The actions of the "recipients" of the air support service demonstrate its power, by repeatedly trying to destroy it, as criminals have over the last few years. They would not bother to do that, if they did not think it was effective in helping to catch them and/or prevent them engaging in their business.

[Fortyodd2]

hands_on123, admit it - you're the Chief Constable of Hampshire aren't you? :E

[J.A.F.O.]

FortyOdd

JAFO ROFL :ok:

[SilsoeSid]

hands_on123, admit it - you're the Chief Constable of Hampshire aren't you? :E

Either that or Manuel from a well known Torquay hotel. ;)


That's debatable, I think this is just the same syndrome as fire engines engines/EMS helicopters etc being attacked. ie they represent "the state"

Even you must admit that there is just a little bit of difference between chucking sticks and stones at ambulance/fire crews and air ambulances out on a shout, and what has happened at various Police helicopter units. :ugh:

[Coconutty]

Twitter : @WMP_Helicopter

You may well ask what we were doing in Redditch? Start of CRASU today - Central Region Air Support Unit - 4 ASU's covering Midlands area!!
As part of an effeciency and cost saving initiative 8 Midlands forces are combining their air support responses by operating a nearest to task system. The forces involved are: West Midlands, West Mercia, Staffs, Warwickshire, Leicestershire, Derbyshire, Northamptonshire and Nottinghamshire. Its early days and there will be some tweaking to be done. The aim is to improve our service.

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[SilsoeSid]

I would be surprised if that one didnt work!

They will have the same number of A/C covering the same area.


Ahah!
Minute one of day one.....Any of those spare aircraft available yet?
:E

[aeromys]

Probably old news but here it is as presented to the Hants Police Authority

(public domain) (http://www.hampshirepoliceauthority.org/hpa/meetings-2/hpameet.htm?newsid=476434)

[PANews]

Just released by Helitech on Twitter.....

Hampshire Constabulary's Chief Constable Alex Marshall (Lead on National Police Air Support) to give conference keynote speech on 29 Sept

....and I believe there is more in the pipeline

[SilsoeSid]

An interesting link aeromys.

Will this £4mill pot of money be released to the forces involved with the present shadow services, to pay for the hours they are now flying that they wouldn't normally be? Where is it being held and at what interest rate?

I wonder if there is a 'National coverage map' showing which areas have 24hr coverage within the 15/20 minutes. Lets not forget that in reality any circles on maps can only be based on the location of the aircraft at any given time and not the location of the bases themselves.

I hope crews will be able to claim for meals missed due to being stuck elsewhere at mealtimes iaw para 7.7.

Anyone else notice according to the 'What will NPAS mean for Hampshire', Appendix A , that Hampshire are due to get 2 new aircraft in the next year or so? They will pay £390,000 less for air support than current and, looking at their 'circles', will have 3 aircraft available to them! Not bad for a force that has never had a helicopter before. :suspect:
Whats the story behind a large consortium starting up the very same month that the national plan was going to be announced?

Can't wait for the next installment of 'What will NPAS mean for ... insert your county here'
Getting more for less, we are all equal, but are some of us more equal than the others? .... :hmm:

[PANews]

Had anyone noticed that the NPAS map includes a fixed wing in Dyfed-Powys?

This was not in the original plan but was leaked via the DPPA and local media - although it seemed at the time to be little more than a sop this suggests it is 'real'.

[SilsoeSid]

Its a shame that at Appendix A it doesn't mention how much it will cost to set up the new base at Bournemouth Airport, the agreed fuel price or negotiated landing fee agreement.

Never seen so many notes under a financial table before, however I particularly liked note 5 that tell us that an aircrafts life is 10 years, followed by note 7 that tells us that one of the ac is already over 10 years old (the other to follow shortly)

Suffice to say then, that any future purchases will be 135's in keeping with para 5.7 of the report;

"Over time, it is anticipated that further savings may be achieved through improved technology, a move to a single-type helicopter fleet (reducing maintenance and training costs)"

Are we allowed to do that?

[Eurocopper]

hands_on123 is shown as having joined PPrune in 2004 and therefore could not possibly be The Chief Constable of Hampshire, who certainly has not had interest in Air Ops for that long!

[Digital flight deck]

I don't suppose one could blame the CC of Hampshire for the nepotism demonstrated when organising coverage for his county in comparison to, lets say the east of England. Not so National when it comes to divvying up the assets then. :hmm:

[Retro Coupe]

I hope crews will be able to claim for meals missed due to being stuck elsewhere at mealtimes iaw para 7.7.


That paragraph in its entirety:

Once dispatched, responsibility for tasking the aircraft will rest with the local force. Subject to demand, the aircraft may be re-deployed within the force area without returning to its home base.


Seems to suggest that having been dispatched by a central/regional control room, the Force to which you are deployed can then use you as they see fit. My understanding was that once complete on the task you were originally deployed to, you would go back to the control room for further instructions.

One advantage of removing control of the aircraft from the individual forces will be the introduction of a "Dross" filter*. i.e "While you're up can you just do this" or having someone on the ground who thinks the job they are involved with is the job of the century, demanding the attendance of Air Support despite the opinion of the crew being that Air Support isn't appropriate.

* Rigorous enforcement of the Deployment Criteria mentioned in para. 7.6 should hopefully achieve the same result.

[Lokon]

Interesting read Aero.
4mill looks like it is already spent or earmarked for new bases, refit of a withdrawn helicopter( liverpools?) and perhaps fund an extra fixed wind for Dyfed-Powys.

Some sort of loose regional service post April 2012-2015 followed by a more formal arrangement 2015-2018 and if I have read it correctly it wont be a full National Air Support until 2018 onwards.

A single Helicopter fleet? I don't see the Explorer on that list, no R&D at MDHI and that might account for the Camb and Sheffield etc for the chop now, it only leaves 6 or 7 902's for them to phase out by 2018. What next, one BIG helicopter that would cover Police, Air Ambo, Fire and SAR.

Still no mention of how it is going to be maintained or flown, at least NPIA have taken on a specialist HR guru to tell the troops "your fired".

[Fortyodd2]

The problem with "Specialist HR Gurus" is that, whilst knowing huge amounts about HR rules & regs, employment law, etc, they know absolutely naff all about what their employer actually specialises in. :ugh:
What NPAS actually needs is a "Specialist Aviation HR Guru" - someone who actually knows what an FTL is etc.
I'm slightly happier now that they are about to employ a pilot - 9 months in and they've finally employed someone who knows what he's talking about. :D We should be grateful.
Yes, I am a grumbly old git and I only said "Naff" as I'm feeling extra polite!

[SilsoeSid]

Oh, Mr. Marshall what have you done?
There once were lots of choppers here, but soon there will be none,
I'll have to buy a bike, 'cos again they've knicked my car,
Oh, Mr. Marshall what a naughty man you are!


Will there be a TV series in the pipeline?
Oh, Mr. Marshall ! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oh,_Doctor_Beeching)!

Oh, Mr. Marshall ! focuses on the small fictional air support unit of Hatley, which is threatened with closure under the Marshall Axe. The programme was filmed somewhere on the Isle of Sodor, with the part of Hatley air base being played by the BTP drill shed, at Crewe station.
;) :E :ok:

[Digital flight deck]

Whitehead06, I am not sure how much military internal security experience you have, ie NI, but neither seakings nor pumas were used for the everyday work over Belfast and the like. Gazelles and Lynx were the order of the day and we had FLIR, day/night tv, secure comms with the police on the ground and a good idea of what we were doing some years before the civilian bobbies cottoned on to this air support thing. In fact I remember being called upon by a constabulary on mainland UK to give airborne surveillance with a police officer on board in a lynx during an armed hostage. The Army certainly did have a handle on what was needed and provided it. And of course the military procurement system, although not perfect by any means, was able to purchase in larger numbers and there by achieving savings that individual purchases would not. This is where the police across the UK could learn a lesson as has been demonstrated by the 6 or so who bought EC 135P2+ aircraft at a great saving.

Experience of pre air support, :{ - local air support, needed joining up - regional air support, getting there - national air support, inevitable.
It just needs to be for the right reasons and done in the right way. We will have to wait and see. I suspect Mr Marshall will be drawing his considerable pension, and an OBE, by then though.

[zorab64]

Whitehead & DFD both make valid points, and we should not forget that, in many ways, the Police have also benefitted industry by providing massive amounts of data in the usage of both machines & equipment.
The support of ECD, TM, P&W, Aerotech & others at user groups is just an example of the close working relationship with industry where, for some years, 6+ of the 10 highest houred 135s have been in the UK Police fleet. This has meant problems with ARIS pots, FADECs etc etc were aired & addressed for the benefit of users worldwide, invariably with the first upgrades being fitted to the UK Police fleet for evaluation. In addition, they have used the fleet representatives for feedback as to what we'd like to see in future development, both of aircraft & kit.

I would not like to appear presumptious enough to state that the UK Police Air Support community, in general, is regarded fairly highly by industry, but it would be nice to think we have helped to make a difference, however slight, in the development/improvement of some spectacular products for the airborne enforcement role. They're often not perfect (Airwave!) but, even in my short time, I've noticed significant improvements overall.

Slighty off the thread, I'm afraid, but it will be a shame to dilute such expertise with mis-informed people making well-intentioned, though poorly executed, changes.

[ShyTorque]

Digital Flight Deck,

Whitehead06, I am not sure how much military internal security experience you have, ie NI, but neither seakings nor pumas were used for the everyday work over Belfast and the like.

Not correct. But we did only fly at night, with no lights, so you're partly excused for not noticing.

[Digital flight deck]

Shy, I do remember our chocy locker being raided with extreme skill and alacrity in both city and the mill, it was always put down to "those blue jobs". So yes you were noticed but only in the shadows. :ok:

[ShyTorque]

Sorry, not guilty for your stealing choccy bars because during my time on "permanent night shifts" we never went to the Mill other than for a quick refuel and never at City; far to obvious a place.

My brevet had the letters "RAF" modified to read "BAT" for over a year but no-one noticed. :rolleyes:

[PANews]

I am surprised that the thread has not already taken upon itself to make mention of the developments at Staverton reported [and confirmed] yesterday via Helihub. New owners in place - identity still a mystery.

OK I guess some of you are PAS pilots and you are waiting to see what difference it makes but it seems an important item....... in UK police aviation terms...

Times are hard all round but NPAS can be directly blamed for putting the mockers on the UK police aviation future for the AgustaWestland A109, the MD902 Explorer and the EC145 as there is a clear preference being suggested for a single type and it does not require too much intelligence to say that the type of choice is the EC135P2. That has an effect on the viability of the manufacturers and their agents...... PAS/MAS/SAS have been trying to get work elsewhere for a long time now and the effect on the others ['industry cannot live by maintenance alone'] is no less serious.

[MightyGem]

i.e "While you're up can you just do this"
That system actually gives us some good results. How that will work after the 18th of this month remains to be seen. :(

[J.A.F.O.]

NPAS can be directly blamed for putting the mockers on the UK police aviation future for the AgustaWestland A109, the MD902 Explorer and the EC145

Is it not just the case that, all things considered, the 135's the best aircraft for the job?

[morris1]

Is it not just the case that, all things considered, the 135's the best aircraft for the job?

I doubt you will find any 902 operator saying "i wish we had a 135"....

So no. Its not that simple. Endurance comparisons alone should deal with that issue.

Nice to know though, that come the future when when the UK is covered by a single type, that a fleetwide grounding issue will wipe out the entire UK ASU operation.! now thats progress for you.

I also look forward to the competitive tendering processes that are going to happen soon for engineering support, and pilotage. Oh thats right.. were not doing that either are we.. were just giving it away to the usual suspects by all accounts and not bothering with that pesky legal stuff.

Ahh well, at least we will have seasoned Police Air Observers on board that know the local areas... oh thats right... we dont even know if thats happening either. We await the announcement of the fact that seeing as its cheaper to employ civilians we wont bother with having cops onboard either.
After all its all about achieving more, for less..

Its a shower of sh~t from start to finish.
The amount of money saved from start to finish isnt worth destroying whats already there. Cameron has wasted 50 times what would be saved in the last year alone.

[J.A.F.O.]

I doubt you will find any 902 operator saying "i wish we had a 135"

What, even when they're waiting for parts?

as its cheaper to employ civilians we wont bother with having cops onboard either

You're in cloud cuckooland there, morris.

[PANews]

Brave man to open that 902 reliability and capability can of worms JAFO!!! As morris states, there is a lot of type loyalty out thare and I expect that the number of displaced low hour 902s [mainly in the south] will be moving in to work considerably harder in places [mainly in the north] currently operating types with airframe hours representing world fleet highs. The 902 will be around for a long long time yet I expect.

But that old chestnut - or spectre - raised by morris of "... a fleetwide grounding issue ..." [of the EC135] affecting the UK police fleet is a load of balony. Historically in the last decade the only UK police aviation type to have suffered any severe bouts of fleet wide grounding have not been EC135's.

And..... if it were to ever happen .... it would ground most of Europe's [police and EMS fleets] at a stroke. That fact alone would mean that the manufacturer would throw every ounce of its [considerable] engineering skills at the problem for a hopefully quick return to operation.

And if or when it happens the emergency services will just have to either give up air support for a while or go fly mark 1 eyeball in daylight only in whatever they can get rented. Its been done before .... ask Dyfed-Powys.

[aeromys]

For anyone that can pick up BBC1 South, CC Alex Marshall will be talking about NPAS on the Politics Show at 1100am Sunday 10th July.

[Lokon]

Morris 1. Your single fleet grounding issue is a non starter, 2 volcanic clouds grounded everybody for about a week but it didn't stop Policing did it? the bobby on the street still carried on.

It most likely will be from the Eurocopter house because they seem to put alot more support and R&D into the product, when was the last time your Explorer had an upgrade - IIDS glass, cracks in head.....etc no change and these are issues that have gone on for years.

As I said in an earlier post by 2020 it will be a single mid-large type helicopter covering everything.

[SilsoeSid]

For anyone that can pick up BBC1 South, CC Alex Marshall will be talking about NPAS on the Politics Show at 1100am Sunday 10th July.

Sky Channel 984
BBC - Help receiving TV and radio - BBC channels on Sky (http://www.bbc.co.uk/reception/info/channels_sky.shtml)
:ok:

[Brilliant Stuff]

Thanks Lokon for making the Ash point.

As for Eurocopter Support it could still be improved.

[morris1]

fleet groundings aside then seeing as its been poo poo'd ... ! :hmm:

Like i said.. you wont find many 902 users wishing they had a 135.
If the product had been that useless surely there would have mass migrations from MD to EC..??

The 902 airframes left will surely be phased out pretty quickly. The number of hours that will be needed to be flown to shore up the holes left in cover from units being withdrawn will soon rattle up the hours. My unit will be covering a huge area compared to now, and perish to think about the hours spent in transit.. :bored:

[Digital flight deck]

Morris, I guess people love their old vintage cars, but it does not make them particularly useful when you can not get spares. Type loyalty is great when you do not have the responsibility of ensuring a service is as good as it can be, so in my opinion the 135 is the only choice in reality.

[morris1]

Type loyalty..?

I really dont give a toss what the machine is so long as it does the job and gets me home safe.
Its just another police vehicle to me..!

What concerns me is travelling 30 minutes to a task in the next county when we all know its pointless unless you can get there in under ten mins.!

apart from firearms jobs of course which always take 3 hours of containment to resolve :hmm: yawn

Ill be stocking up on reading material for the transits to and from task. :}

[J.A.F.O.]

If the product had been that useless surely there would have mass migrations from MD to EC..??

morris, I guess you're right, I hadn't thought of that. Sorry. I didn't say that the aircraft was useless, though, I think the phrase that I used was "all things considered".

Could you just remind me of the proportion of the UK fleet that is Eurocopter, I don't have the figures to hand.

[SilsoeSid]

Politics Show - BBC South 10 July 2011

Presenter:
The emergency services sharing facilities has become a bit of a mantra of late, all part of the drive to cut costs. As Justin Pasco reports from Dorset, the sky's clearly not the limit though, when it comes to finding savings.

A severely disabled missing man is recovered from Wareham forest, found by thermal imaging cameras on the Dorset police helicopter. The craft attends on average more than a thousand incidents a year, with the force facing cuts of 18 million over 4 years the Chief Constable wants to join a new national air support scheme, sharing helicopters with neighbouring forces to save money.

Martin Baker - CC Dorset Police

"We're not abandoning anything in operational terms, we are now in a position where we can move forward and share a national air capability, at under half the cost of what we're paying now and we're paying in total, getting on for 2 million pounds a year, for the machine that sits behind me."

The Dorset helicopter doesn't just respond to serious incidents. Winchester Crown Court, where just about every case at some point features the work of a police helicopter. Whether in gathering evidence, surveillance or taking aerial photographs to give to juries to explain a location involved in an investigation.

By sharing a helicopter with neighbouring counties, Dorset police are planning to reduce flying time, half costs and save a million quid. What about the practicalities? That's exactly what's happening in Hampshire, where they're already sharing air services with their neighbours.


Alex Marshall - CC Hampshire & IW Police

"We have helicopters come from here in North Hampshire, another one from Sussex and we'll soon move into a national police air service if all the forces in the country agree, the costs will go down again and then at that point there will be 23 helicopters across the country and they will be able to move around to wherever the calls are."

Back in Dorset, the Police Federation are concerned that sharing a chopper with neighbouring forces could have serious consequences.

Clive Chamberlain - Chair, Dorset Police Federation

"To scale back the service provided by the helicopter, I think is quite worrying because its a vast county and my concern is that to cut back on the service we provide could inevitably put lives at risk."

But the Hampshire Police Federation say the move to sharing helicopters has so far been fairly smooth.

John Apter - Chair, Hampshire Police Federation

"When Hampshire started to look at the prospect of sharing their air support we were very concerned at the drop of service that our officers would receive. I have to say since the collaboration and the sharing of the 2 helicopters, we've actually had some really good feedback from the officers on the ground who are saying that the helicopters are very dynamic, very responsive, available to them when they need it. So I would try and reassure my friends in Dorset they we've actually seen an increase in usage of air support and the officers who we represent are very grateful for that."

Hampshires Chief Constable, who is also co-ordinating the new national air support scheme, says collaboration with neighbouring forces is the only way forward, that's despite reducing the numbers of helicopters by almost a third, from 33 to 23.

Alex Marshall - CC Hampshire & IW Police

"Well, I think all the cuts come with risks but on this occasion by placing the aircraft in the right places and by ignoring the borders having borderless tasking, in other words sending the helicopter to the most important incident and for a big event planning in advance, no I don't think there will be any loss of service at all, there will be a reduction in cost."

Meanwhile among the rank and file, particularly those that work with or around the helicopter, there's a sadness that such an eye catching tool in the fight against time may be destined to spend more time on the ground to save money.

Sgt Ian Wood - Dorset Police Air Support Unit

"We are all aware that times are tough in policing, finances are being cutback, but when alls said and done, without this, you know we do save lives, casualty evacuations, missing persons, things of that nature. Without it there's going to be prices to pay."



BBC News - Dorset Police helicopter sharing fears (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-dorset-14093168)

[PANews]

Nicely worked through.

You ask the right people the right questions and the answers will fit the mould that says improvement in service.

I have been in touch with John Apter since the quote above and he confirms he was not misquoted in any way.

So, for Hampshire their level of service has improved by the replacement of their BN Defender with the Surrey and Sussex helicopters. It will be interesting to know [at year end] whether the overall number of hours flown by the two helicopters to provide this improved service has grown beyond expectation or whether the helicopters are just plain simple more efficient providers of service compared with the BN2 [or any clunky old fixed wing].

When NPAS comes to pass there will be winners and losers. If you ask the winners [ie those with a low expectation of air support based on number of hours provided 24/7 at the moment] you will invariably get positive feedback.

Most of the deep south air units underuse their resources - either low hours or daylight only - so come the NPAS day they will either get a similar service or better [as promised]. Specific areas to highlight are Cumbria, Lincolnshire, Hampshire, Kent, Wiltshire....... most of those will provide a positive reply to how much better it is. For the first two [they who have no air support now] any reply will be positive.

Just do not ask the currently busy areas and, looking at the prior crop of media coverage, generally someone at NPAS has been choosing the quote sources well.

If you ask the police in those areas where air support is and always has been second to none the question now or afterwards you are likely to get a negative answer. Case in point, since 2000 my home in the shadow of Lippitts Hill changed from being policed by the Met to Essex. My personal experience is that the alteration in border took my air support service from three helicopters based 2 miles away to one based 25 miles away.

And boy it shows.

Shortly after the border change there was no perceived alteration, old habits die hard and the crews tended to still be over here. Within months though the whole flight profile had changed and even the pretty regular observer training sorties are undertaken further south. Now I can hear them running their engines at midnight and hear them fly away towards the resr of the Met.

From that standpoint NPAS will be a [re]gain here but I have seen 10 years of the negative and am glad that at least I worked when there was ever improving air support ..... at the push of a microphone button.

For those used to instant air support the biggest flaw of NPAS is likely to be the central control room[s].

[zorab64]

Three points:
1. PANews makes valid reference to "silly" policing within tight borders, with the Met/Essex argument. I'm sure if you ask any of the Essex team what they think about taking 10-15 mins to respond to a job in Lippits back yard, they'll be as frustrated (at the ridiculous waste of time, and limited chance of result) as the people in that neighbourhood! :ugh: There are certain areas of borderless working that should be explored, whether a Force is planning to join NPAS or not, IMHO.

2. Politics show interview = "spin" by those who are only interested in money & have little understanding about the real effect of stretching the service beyond reasonable elasticity. Yes, some areas will get a better service than before, but too many will be only served by a less responsive, effective, or efficient time on target. Just getting to the task is not enough - it has to be within a sensible f:mad:g timescale.

3. Re argument over type selection, also raised by PANews, & commented by others. IMO, it's not NPAS who have been shooting down the 902, it's MD. They seem to have single-handedly shot themselves in the foot, by consistent poor parts supply and lack of R&D into those bits that have, historically, not been as good as they maybe should have been. No company should expect to get everything right first time, but weaknesses should be examined and addressed, for the benefit of the longevity of both sales & current product, in any case. The 902 planned maintenance schedule alone makes your eyes water. :sad:

At least ECD have put significant resources into their maintenance reduction programme, with very satisfactory results - and, as previoulsy posted, they've had significant input from the UK Police flying rate/data and have made big efforts to address their customers' concerns.
Whether a specific type is the preferred NPAS option or not, as a number have intimated, the 135 overall is probably a better tool for the job, if you take all parameters into account, certainly from an serviceability point of view. Significantly longer endurance is hardly a plus-point, unless you plan to spend hours in transit, not getting to any job in a sensible time-scale . . . he says, neatly talking himself round in circles!:=

[J.A.F.O.]

For those used to instant air support the biggest flaw of NPAS is likely to be the central control room[s] :D

PAN, we don't always agree but when we do, we really do.

[Coconutty]

IMHO a Central Control Room, could work, and would have a number of benefits,
but only if a few changes are made to the way NPAS planners perceive it to work.

"We" all know that the best service is provided when someone needing Air Support can contact their ASU quickly,
and the crew make a rapid decision to deploy.

This exisiting efficiency would be LOST under the current NPAS plan - where it is proposed that ALL requests for Air Support
are directed to the Central Control Room first, who then make the decision as to whether to deploy, and which aircraft.

Relatively minor changes to the above planned deployment method could make a world of difference ......

e.g. Anyone needing Air Support calls for it in exactly the same way as they do now ( the "best practice" that has evolved over the last 20 or so years ),
and the ASU, while commencing pre-take off routines, advise NPAS Control of their decision to deploy to xxxxx location.
NPAS Control Room - with an overview of Air Support activities across the Country,
THEN quickly agree for the ASU to deploy, or suggest an alternative aircraft if they are aware of it being more suitably positioned.
This then removes the decision making process of whether the task is viable and suitable for Air support from the remote NPAS Control Room staff,
leaving that initial decision with those best placed, and with all of the information needed to make it ( Aircraft state, local weather, etc etc etc ), the Air Support Unit staff.

Something like the above would have little or no delay in getting the most appropriate aircraft on the way to any incident
where Air Support is requested and it is vable to provide it, whereas the NPAS plan would add such delays that the service would become far less effective. ( IMHO ).

Thsi woudl also tick all of the boxes of a "National Air Support Unit delivering services locally", and "Improving efficiency" and "Saving money". :ok:

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[Wagging Finger]

Edited because Coconutty types faster than me!! Well said Coco

J.A.F.O Think you got a bit in front of yourself there.
we don't always agree but when we do, we really do.

surely you mean 'I', or have you some mandate to speak for us all, or was it a slip of the tongue, and we all know where that ends up.

Appart from the already stated fact that NPAS will have central control room(s), do we know anything else? will these control rooms deploy us to every job or will they just take a strategic view and deal with pre planned deployments?

Let's not forget that it has been stated that NPAS will be 'locally delivered but centrally controlled' Does your Force Incident Manager deploy all resources?, including a PC at Division to a domestic, or do they take a strategic view of deployments? What makes you think NPAS will be any different.

We are in the brown stuff financially as is the rest of the country, we have to make cuts, and ultimately it could be worse, if left to there own devices how many Forces would now be closing Air Support completely to save money?

So I will wait until further information comes from the centre to make an informed comment. Yes the pilots will grumble but ultimately this is a Police operation and is subject to Public Sector cuts. we have to cut the suit to the cloth not the other way around.
:=

[Art of flight]

I think JAFO was only including himself and Pan in his 'we'.

This is a rumour network so you might wait some while for 'informed comment' on here, if ever.....as for pilots grumbling, probably the only space to let off some steam for those who do the job, but have no other method of influencing future events? They after all are (alongside civi observers) the ones who will be in or out when the axe falls, police officer observers will still be police officers the next day.

Look at most forums and threads on this site and you'll be aware it's set up for grumbling pilots!;)

[J.A.F.O.]

Wagging Finger

If you are going to quote me, then kindly do so in context. My post was in response to PAN (hence the quote from his post and me starting the sentence with his name) and therefore the WE referred to me and him, not to you or anyone else on the forum.

I am sorry that you were not able to fully understand that.

[paarmo]

Has anyone any example of centralisation of Control Rooms in any of the emergency services working?
It lowers expectations and creates an " I know better than you " culture " because I can see the bigger picture " scenario and alienates the front end of the service from those in the Ivory Tower.
Fight for your aircraft by all means but fight even more to stop centralisation.
In 5 years time after centralisation more people will be employed in the Control Room than are now in directing aircraft and whoever is in charge will be able to produce targeted figures to show how successful they are. Unfortunately they will be the ones who decided which figures to use and they will only use the ones which show themselves as being ultra efficient.
Centralisation sucks!

[Wagging Finger]

Wagging Finger

If you are going to quote me, then kindly do so in context. My post was in response to PAN (hence the quote from his post and me starting the sentence with his name) and therefore the WE referred to me and him, not to you or anyone else on the forum.

I am sorry that you were not able to fully understand that.


I did quote you in context, I did realise that you were replying to PA.

I just didn't realise you had become the Royal we something you have never done in all your previous posts, have we been promoted?:ooh:

:=

[J.A.F.O.]

As this seems to be getting in the way of the proper discussion, would someone else like to tell Wagging Finger how the English language works as I don't seem to be getting anywhere?

[Wagging Finger]

J.A.F.O

Not something I do often, but apologies, I'm not a morning person and having re read your original post I now see your meaning.

As regards being taught the English language, qualified school teachers struggled, so you lot have no chance!!!:ugh:


As you probably guessed, I don't agree with you or PA news on the central control rooms front.

[J.A.F.O.]

Fair enough.

[PANews]

Well I thought I was the Royal We...... just we two... but two sides are often three sides on Pprune .....:rolleyes:

I actually came back on with a specific point... of which more anon.... but the argie bargie caught my attention for some reason!

The other comment is that central control does not work well and I suspect it is because the control rooms are staffed by people who have never done the job... never had their neck on the line.... the coat carriers.... but I could be wrong. I think I have already said similar way back in this post....

To illustrate in another way... where mixed up thinking [by politicians and ACPO] stuffs the system that works .... the PACE Act 1984 [which replaced instant justice with cases taken over by junior solicitors and presentation officers] never worked because the people standing in court before the defendent often weeks after the event had never been there on the day..... so they pleaded 'not guilty' in ever increasing numbers.... Pre-PACE when the arresting cops appeared in court the next day with the defendant most pleaded guilty because there was continuity... the actors that played out the action were all there and each knew what they knew..... [potentially the truth]. The money saving exercise [replacing police overtime with 'cheap' young solicitors] went awfully awry....

But.... the real reason I am here...

I see that notice that the South Yorkshire Police Authority has agreed to the Chief Constable's request to retire, with effect from 9 October 2011.
Chief Constable Meredydd Hughes has been in the position since September 2004, having previously been Deputy Chief Constable with South Yorkshire Police.

Now of course Meredydd was one CC that was standing up for his ASU being retained..... and he also had a very strong position in relation to the MD902 [wherever he went in his police service a new example of the 902 was to follow] .... now with him going the way is clear for there being no argument over the demise of SYP ASU..... or am I being my usual nasty think ill of everyone self?

I am sure someone with tell me!

[J.A.F.O.]

Excellent, things are back how they should be. :ok:

I suspect it is because the control rooms are staffed by people who have never done the job... never had their neck on the line.... the coat carriers.... but I could be wrong

One thinks you might be. :E

I don't have a problem with central control but adding another step into a process must make it slower. It doesn't take any great insight or experience to realise that:

Bobby call helicopter -> Helicopter fly

Is going to be quicker than:

Bobby call control room -> Control room decide whether to send helicopter -> Control room find bobby's location on map -> Control room see which nearest resource is -> Control room call helicopter -> Helicopter call bobby to get full story -> Helicopter fly

That may be more efficient in terms of resources used but it can't be quicker and, as a thousand other posters have said, if it ain't quick, it often ain't any use.

You can put the greatest people in the control room with years of experience of air support and more knowledge than all the posters on here combined but they can't make seven steps quicker than two.

And that, ladies and gentlemen of the jury, is my only objection to centralised control.

There is one ever so simple solution but this is possibly not the place for that discussion.

[Wagging Finger]

I:ouch: Think we need to take a bit of a deep breath here, Yes there has been talk of central control rooms, but at this time no one is aware of how the deployments will be made.
I've heard the phrase 'National service, locally delivered' bandied about and would hope that this means a modicum of sense will prevail and radios will be left on in ops rooms, Observers will still be able to task the aircraft, the National/regional control rooms will just take an overview of what is deployed and where and handle all the pre planned tasking.

This may be asking too much, but instead of moaning about what may or may not be, why not let the dust settle a little.

As regards Art's comments, yes Police Officers will still have jobs, and presumably pilots will still have licences, so neither will have lost their ability to earn a crust, what we all seem to be losing sight of is, we HAVE to save money, or the alternative is go the way of Greece!

[timex]

I Think we need to take a bit of a deep breath here, Yes there has been talk of central control rooms, but at this time no one is aware of how the deployments will be made.
I've heard the phrase 'National service, locally delivered' bandied about and would hope that this means a modicum of sense will prevail and radios will be left on in ops rooms, Observers will still be able to task the aircraft, the National/regional control rooms will just take an overview of what is deployed and where and handle all the pre planned tasking.
This may be asking too much, but instead of moaning about what may or may not be, why not let the dust settle a little.

As regards Art's comments, yes Police Officers will still have jobs, and presumably pilots will still have licences, so neither will have lost their ability to earn a crust, what we all seem to be losing sight of is, we HAVE to save money, or the alternative is go the way of Greece!

So how will we deploy? You say "no one is aware of how the deployments will be made". Then "Observers will still be able to task the aircraft, the National/regional control rooms will just take an overview of what is deployed". Surely a contradiction?

Police will still have a job, they are Police first. Pilots? In the current market, wouldn't hold my breath on that one.

[Wagging Finger]

I suppose it's karma, I misunderstand JAFO and some one then misunderstands me I said but at this time no one is aware of how the deployments will be made.
I've heard the phrase 'National service, locally delivered' bandied about and would hope that this means a modicum of sense will prevail and radios will be left on in ops rooms, Observers will still be able to task the aircraft, the National/regional control rooms will just take an overview of what is deployed and where and handle all the pre planned tasking.

I was thinking rhetorically:sad: hopefully that is how things will pan out, who knows and that was the main thrust of my thread, none of us know what is going to happen or if we do were not telling.

[SilsoeSid]

Has anyone else noticed in life;

Anything that says 'One Size Fits All' doesn't, and is only ever suitable for the smaller ones amongst us !

The only thing that is a 'National service, delivered locally' is the post. As we all know, if you want something delivered when you want it to be, you have to pay more for the service !

Any company that restructures or renames, ends up forking out a lot of money in the process. I'd wager that the NPAS letter headed writing paper and stationary contract would be worth at least the annual 50% savings made at Dorset.

[SilsoeSid]

In reference to Coconutty's post about the centralised control room and wagging fingers agreement of it, doesn't that post actually say that a central control room would be a waste of space time and money?

In effect, with Coco's plan we would be deploying ourselves after talking to the man on the ground, deciding we are closest, or not, depending on what we have heard on the common radio freq or seen on the GPS locator screen and informing NPAS Control Room that we were going.

The only thing an NPAS air office should do IMHO, is collate all the task details, divvie up the costs and make reports. 1 or 2 people 9-5, 5 days/wk, as opposed to 6 people 24/7, shift allowance etc etc.

Deployment based on ac availability, location and, in the words of the CC "importance of an incident", could, would and should only be left to the air unit staff themselves.

[zorab64]

SS - a very concise post which pretty much sums up how to "control" assets, very much along the lines of the efficient/inefficient, multiple filter, conundrum that JAFO posted earlier.

If anyone's ever worked in a border-free environment, so long as there's just one initial contact freq (ICF) that everyone (in that area) listens to, the nearest aircraft, whether airborne or not, will pick up the job if they have the fuel/weather to do so - using the same ICF to inform all of their intentions, or reasons for their inability to lift. If each force control room uses the same ICF, they just call up for the nearest aircraft - a quick phone call to adjacent units prior to each shift brief will keep everyone aware of serviceability & availability issues in the area. The "monitoring" room, however, will do exactly that, monitor. The costs, if necessary, will be sorted out from the task/evidence system post flight, while the on-job updates will be on the local talk-group anyway.
Controlling aircraft, IMHO, is not the way to go. Those who do the job are invariably far more aware as to whether it's valid or not, so long as they get the right info, and will react accordingly. Introducing another filter between one force control room (as JAFO mentioned) is just another way of slowing the process and causes further delay.

The pilot issue is another matter which has the potential to get more painful than the Observer one - just as Art points out. Licence or not, most are likely to find it difficult to pick up similar jobs when a number of their ilk may be out on their ear. This is a professional PILOT rumour network, though we're most of us are gentlemen enough to allow the non-polers a fair crack of the whip - however, we'd all be grateful for a little sensitivity over potential prospects, I'm sure. :eek:

On a separate matter, and whilst it's now been sorted - those who live in glass houses should not throw stones. JAFO's "we" was quite correct for those who understand English - maybe checking the spelling of "appart" would be worthwhile prior to criticism!? :ok:

[J.A.F.O.]

zorab

He was tired and I've accepted his magnanimous apology. ;)

[Coconutty]

Wag....

Yes there has been talk of central control rooms, but at this time no one is aware of how the deployments will be made. ... not strictly true - the NPAS planners will surely know how they would like the deployments to be made :\

You're right in that I don't KNOW what their plans are, but because their thoughts don't seem to be shared with the various Air Units,
and very little information has been released into the Public domain, people ( including myself ) will naturally worry that the plans being made are flawed.

Can anyone think of a reason as to WHY the plans, in detail, should not be made Public ?

Doing so would give an opportunity for a lot of very knowledgable folk to contribute,
together with airing the views of the thousands of Police Officers and staff that the service is there to support,
adding in the views of the Public who are ultimately paying for it all ?

How many times do we see something go wrong and then hold a Public enquiry to find out why ?

Why don't we have an open and honest Public consultation now, and avoid the need for an Enquiry later ?

Maybe NPAS are planning to hold a Public consultation before going "live",
but they just haven't made that bit public yet ? :rolleyes:

The whole thing is a bit like an incident being studied on a CRM Course,
where all the links of the chain remain unbroken, and all the holes in the cheese are lined up,
only instead of resulting in an AAIB report, we could end up with a Public Enquiry into why Police Air Support has "crashed".

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[zorab64]

And sensible consultation now will be a lot better value, and likely ensure a better result, than a subsequent enquiry! :ok:

[SilsoeSid]

With just over 9 months to go before the NPAS baby arrives, we could look at now as being the 'messy stage' !

..or to look at it another way, there's a lot of :mad: ing around under the covers going on, keeping it quiet from the 'grandparents' ! :ooh::eek:

Problem is, when it arrives in April we could well discover that we have painted the room the wrong colour, after ignoring Grandmas intuition of what it was going to be, and haven't the change left over to repaint :rolleyes:

[SilsoeSid]

Countdown to Apr 1, 2012 12:00:01 AM in UTC (http://www.timeanddate.com/counters/customcounter.html?msg=NPAS+Start+Time&day=01&month=04&year=2012&hour=00&min=00&sec=01&p0=0)


A couple of secret videos ;)

NPAS Representative in red, concludes the latest briefing session after the closing speech by Sodor AOU UEO Mr.Wonka!


Prerecorded for release on April 1st;

You didn't move as we told you last October!

[SilsoeSid]

RAF Shawbury Families Day today.
RAF Shawbury - Events (http://www.raf.mod.uk/rafshawbury/events/index.cfm)

Should be a good opportunity for some great photos ;)

Please note that these events are not open to the public
View topic - RAF F&F days 2011 (Not open to the public) (http://forums.airshows.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=30007)

[lavalump]

Now I get it! It was the Eggdicator what done for the MD902! Makes sense now.

[jayteeto]

Just called in to Woodvale on my way to work today, the last flight was this morning. Hope the Champagne Breakfast goes well!! That's another one down, goodbye Police 24....................... :sad:

[SilsoeSid]

A sad day.
I dunk a digestive in my tea in salute.

From us all;
http://www.talk.electricianforum.co.uk/images/smilies/Salute.gif http://www.talk.electricianforum.co.uk/images/smilies/Salute.gif http://www.talk.electricianforum.co.uk/images/smilies/Salute.gif

Godspeed to you all :ok:

[timex]

Sad day....lets see what happens this weekend when the locals realise it's not a bite!!!:sad::sad:

[SilsoeSid]

Isn't this being sold with the rhetoric,; 'The new service would provide a more efficient and accessible air support service that offers better value for money.'....Ok!

But what was it the CC told us?

"I would like to assure people that, no matter what decisions are made in the future, there will be no loss of air support in Merseyside and communities will see no change in service."

'No change in service'...I see that being challenged in the coming months!

[jayteeto]

Something that was said, actually made great sense this morning and I find myself in agreement for the first time in a while. In these days of budget cutting (and I think it WILL get worse), police authorities may find themselves forced into 'easy' savings and bin their helicopter. A National Service takes that capability away from them, leaving a smaller but more stable capability.
Better smaller than nothing..........................

[Coconutty]

It would be really nice to think it will be "Better smaller" instead of "Worse smaller".

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[J.A.F.O.]

But, Coco, isn't "worse" smaller still better than "gone completely" smaller?

[Coconutty]

My worry is where all this will lead to ........

The issue is more to do with NPAS stating ( and trying to "sell" the notion ) that a smaller fleet
of Nationally controlled aircraft WILL be better, as in "more efficient and saving costs".

Popular belief ( here ) seems to be that this won't happen, and the service will be less efficient (worse)
with the likelihood of not saving any money at all, or even costing more.

The question of whether a "worse" service is better than NO service is a different issue,
but looking into my Coconutty-Crystal ball a few years ahead ........

Once the effects of the worsened service have reduced effectiveness to the extent that the service is totally worthless,
the whole fleet could easily get binned, leaving no service at all.

THEN there will be savings in the Air Support budget,
at the cost of all the tasks carried out at present just not getting done at all.

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[MightyGem]

It's started. Merseyside Air Ops shut down yesterday. The new Northwest Air Operations kicks off at 0700 tomorrow. For the first 3 hours, North Wales will be the sole cover for the area. GMP are on a service. Lancs don't start until 1000, and we don't start until 1100.

We'll see how it goes. :uhoh:

[jayteeto]

Merseyside police loses its own helicopter and air base - Liverpool Local News - News - Liverpool Echo (http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/liverpool-news/local-news/2011/07/18/merseyside-police-loses-its-own-helicopter-and-air-base-100252-29070538/)

Glad to see it is still being kept on in case the new system is not effective :rolleyes:

[Final Flare]

Please excuse me if this topic has been mentioned before, but with 85 pages, I may have missed something. I am not an expert in employment law so if someone could clarify I would be most grateful.

IF NPAS, although a new organisation, are effectively taking over the contracts to provide Air Support to existing Police Forces, are they under TUPE/EU tender rules to offer those whose jobs are under risk of redundancy, employment with the new organisation??

If so, where would those jobs be? Would they have to apply for positions elsewhere in the country? Would everyone have to apply for their own positions? Under the above ruling would someone in Merseyside after being made redundant be allowed to apply for a position at GMP? Would there then be a knock on effect at GMP? will there be discrimination over Geography? Would Directly employed pilots get preference under TUPE rules over those who are subcontracted?

In essence are anyones job safe?

With the onset of a new organisation, is it illegal to pick and choose staff without a transparent and fair recruiting process. Will those who believe they are safe as there will be an aircraft (not necessarily their own aircraft) at their base be given preferential treatment? (Hopefully not, as this is illegal)

Is there an address where everyone and I mean everyone, should be posting their CV's?

[Fortyodd2]

Final Flare,
No, you have not missed anything. It's just another of the minor details that NPAS has yet to decide upon or, if they have decided, have yet to tell anyone. Just another example of the lack of hard information coming from NPAS that's causing rumour, suspicion and a general lowering of morale around the units. NPAS has no leadership, just a bunch of managers with no aviation experience of any sort who will move on once they've enhanced their own careers, got their OBE's and left an unholy mess for someone else to sort out/take the blame for. :ugh:

[Coconutty]

A few questions for the folks up in the North (West) :

Is anyone able to advise the process for the humble Bobby on the Ground to request Air Support now ?

Throughout the Northern Region, but particularly in Merseyside ( who have lost their aircraft ) - how did deployment work before - were they called directly by whoever needed it ?

The press report states :
All operations will be coordinated by the newly-created North West Air Operations Group based at the Highways Agency’s north west regional control centre in Newton-le-Willows.

"Co-ordinated" ??


http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[Helinut]

Does this mean they are now to be considered part of the HATO "service"? :ugh:

[Letsby Avenue]

A very rare post from me... but I think Final Flare is spot on, Our ASU is earmarked to stay but all the same - my house went on the market last week in anticipation. Better to rent over the next year or two I suspect. :hmm:

[PANews]

I am no expert in employment law but it would seem sensible for each of those operations closing down to make their own people redundant [or to 'facilitate' them leaving of their own accord] before NPAS come on board simply to avoid the clash of employment law. This would seem to mainly effect directly employed pilots as the bobbies can simply be put back on the street and the contract pilots go back where they came from.

Problems may arise after next April but I guess that Hampshire and Merseyside staff will not be included...... and others [Cambridgeshire etc] may be 'sorted' by their current forces by then.

So.... in theory a small problem for NPAS?

[Brilliant Stuff]

From what have been told, the bobbies are "safe" since they just get reassigned to Dog/Firearms/Controlroom/Panda Duty, but the pilot's who are employed by a private company are simply put on notice. The interesting bit is what will happen to the direct employed pilots? After all they can not simply be reassigned. Not to mention CRM. I really feel for the Cambridgehire lot they had this damocles sword hanging over them for several years now yet they still soldier on.

I believe the Merseyside pilots have successfully found new births at neighbouring units but not without some serious heartache = stress yet they again stayed professional but what a CRM cluster ****

[Mr_G_Box]

And locked up 7 on our last operational duty!

[SilsoeSid]

I believe the Merseyside pilots have successfully found new births at neighbouring units but not without some serious heartache = stress yet they again stayed professional but what a CRM cluster ****

Shows what a good bunch of guys and gals they (Merseyside) are :D

Wasn't this only possible though because the company they were employed by was, thankfully, able to redeploy them? If the spaces weren't there, they would have been made redundant. If they were directly employed they simply would have been made redundant as the job in the force doesn't exist anymore and would have been in the pile along with the other hopefuls applying for any of the vacancies they have now filled.


Are there any units due for closure that directly employ? Are NPAS telling any forces to make redundant any of their employees?

With contracted pilots, NPAS can simply handle units as they please. Closing down/moving units is simplified by the contracting company adjusting to the NPAS requirement, hiring and firing, starting stopping contracts as required. Bobbies having to put up with a unit move or closure by perhaps travelling further to work or by making a change of direction in their career. NPAS gives the force more bobbies to use and the pilots are not their concern.

With directly employed pilots, NPAS will simply handle units as they please. Bobbies having to put up with a unit move or closure by perhaps travelling further to work or by making a change of direction in their career. NPAS gives the force more bobbies to use, possibly look at making 'acceptable' changes to pilots contracts or ultimately making them redundant which co$ts money, which is what NPAS is supposed to be saving. But you've got to spend to save haven't you!

Is there a simple way of geting directly employed pilots to work for a contract company !! :ooh:


Of course with less than 255 days, 13 hours, 40 minutes, 43 seconds to go, most of the pilot issues have all been sorted....haven't they !

Countdown to Apr 1, 2012 12:00:01 AM in UTC (http://www.timeanddate.com/counters/customcounter.html?msg=NPAS+Start+Time&day=01&month=04&year=2012&hour=00&min=00&sec=01&p0=0)

[PANews]

This rationalisation process will take a lot of the interest out of the UK police market for industry. It will impact on silly places like Helitech or other shows....

At the moment with 30 or so target customers 'they' have the chance of getting a share of the spoils, now it will be all or nothing. OK ECS has pretty much got downlinks sewn up but that chink in the armour represented by the Mets insistence on being different was good [if futile] competition for ECS and for the rest of the many downlink manufacturers even though they were ultimately never to get in the door ...... take away competition on the supply of flight suits, leather jackets, boots, helmets, gloves, fuel... and there is a danger that the number of potential future competitive sections of industry will wither and die in the smallish UK market place.

Yes there will be winners and they will do well over even the reduced 23 aircraft fleet [23 times any item is good money] but take that process five or ten years down the road and the present supplier product/support goes downhill and where are your alternatives? Bust to a man so by then you may end up getting your alternatives from outside the UK.

Ultimately there are not so hidden dangers in single sourcing.

[Lokon]

Silsoe Quote "directly employed they simply would have been made redundant as the job in the force doesn't exist anymore and would have been in the pile along with the other hopefuls applying for any of the vacancies they have now filled."

I believe Public sector workers come under slightly different rules re TUPE but the principles are the same. If that new NPAS or other Force aircraft is over your area doing the same job you used to do, surely you are entitled to that position with the new supplier under the "Service Provision Change" rule?

[SilsoeSid]

If that new NPAS or other Force aircraft is over your area doing the same job you used to do, surely you are entitled to that position with the new supplier under the "Service Provision Change" rule?

OK, so if the Merseyside ASU Pilots were directly employed, are you saying that the contracting company and other directly employed units that now cover their area would be forced to take on one or more of their pilots !

Really!

1. Could NPAS force a particular Constabulary to employ a particular pilot.
2. Which unit would be chosen to take them on? (The one they live closest to?)
3. Could NPAS force a private company to employ one or more individuals?
4. Don't public sector jobs have to be advertised?
5. What legal position would that put someone 'from the outside' hoping to get 'that job', assuming there was a vacancy?


I'd like to think that since last October, a lot of this has been discussed!

[Lokon]

Yes, NPAS or the lead force that is mentioned earlier on would become the new service provider.

www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2006/246/contents/made (http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2006/246/contents/made)

[Helinut]

What the NPAS scheme involves is reducing the number of aircraft and the number of pilots required to fly them, as a matter of policy. I don't think that TUPE prevents people being made redundant when "the demands of the service" "require" a reduced service and fewer employees.

Sadly it seems to me that some pilots currently employed as police pilots will inevitably end up losing their jobs. Which pilots is another question. I don't see any persuasive argument for direct-employed pilots being in a different position from contractor-employed. NPAS seem to have said little, but if a national organisation is to run air support the individual police forces will no longer be providing the service themselves. So those pilots employed by the police force and the contractor company are essentially in the same position, aren't they? Their employer is no longer providing air support.

[The same probably is not true of sub-30 year police officers because they are not normal employees (in an employment sense)].

[MightyGem]

And locked up 7 on our last operational duty!
And locked up 3 on the first day of the new order, having flown 3.6hrs with jobs for N Wales, Cheshire and Mersyside. :ok:

[jayteeto]

3.6 hrs!! Nice one MG, how long before you need to restrict flying hours.........

[SilsoeSid]

OK, so if the Merseyside ASU Pilots were directly employed, are you saying that the contracting company and other directly employed units that now cover their area would be forced to take on one or more of their pilots !

Yes, NPAS or the lead force that is mentioned earlier on would become the new service provider.

What service do NPAS provide in this example?
Police pilots are employed by either a contracting company or directly employed by a force, with a few freelancers. In this example the pilots would be made redundant by Merseyside and your saying would have to be employed by another force or company.

Are you still suggesting that in this example, NPAS are able to go to N.Wales, GMP, Cheshire and Lancs and say "among yourselves, employ Capt.'s W, X, Y & Z" ?


What is the NPAS plan regarding pilot employment?

[SilsoeSid]

So those pilots employed by the police force and the contractor company are essentially in the same position, aren't they? Their employer is no longer providing air support.

Directly employed pilots will be worse off, as there are no jobs in 'the company' to go to. Contracted on the other hand can be redeployed as their employer still provides air support elsewhere.

Once NPAS employ the pilots directly, the situation stabilises itself and we find ourselves in the contract scenario, albeit directly employed. Then, when a unit disappears, NPAS has the ability to redeploy the pilotage as it is still supplying air support elsewhere.

Unfortunately the bottom line of all this is, as Helinut says;
"Sadly it seems to me that some pilots currently employed as police pilots will inevitably end up losing their jobs."

A cynic that I once knew said a while ago that NPAS was only set up to save the jobs of those going at NPIA.
At least every cloud has a silver lining ... for some! :suspect:

[Final Flare]

If that new NPAS or other Force aircraft is over your area doing the same job you used to do, surely you are entitled to that position with the new supplier under the "Service Provision Change" rule? as quoted by lokon.

Again I am not too sure, but I believe that if you are directly employed and the above happens and you are not offered that position then you are fully entitled to claim under "constructive dismissal" grounds. Therefore costing NPAS even more money.

Also the main word we should be concentrating on is "National". As it is a "National" organisation, not regional and definately not force by force, then a full EU Tender process should be adhered to. For all aspects, being it, Engineering, procurement or pilotage. Just to reiterate, thats EU, not national tendering.

I urge everyone, be they directly employed, contracted or whatever to be prepared. There will be people who are going to be very upset and when the full legalities come out, nobody's job, and I stress NOBODY's job will be safe.

[malreeves]

I think Final Flare has hit the nail on the head. Until NPIA/NPAS have a formal HR Organisation who undertake to answer these questions everyone should realise that we know nothing about future employment within NPAS.

Mal

[Helinut]

Except that they will not want as many pilots as are currently employed in police aviation.

[Digital flight deck]

Helinut, you are of course right, but surely some will go through natural wastage and if a number of bases go to 20 or 24H more pilots will be required to fulfil the FTL requirements.

[zorab64]

DFD has a good point - there will be units, possibly not operating currently to a full 20 or 24, who will need enhanced manning under the new struture. If they're currently manned to 3 FTE and maximising their FTL, an increase in Pilot complement will be required.

But I'm puzzled by jayteeto's comment? A lot of NPAS calculations are based (I'm led to believe) on the expectation that an ASU is most financially efficient when flying around 1300-1500 hours per year. With breaks for servicing, (& no spare aircraft) that averages out around 5 hrs per 24 hrs, whether working 20 or 24, - so 3.6 hrs would be deemed a low-hour day. There are plenty of busy units operating at that rate, I think you'll find . . . and also a number of others sitting around waiting to "go over the top"! :zzz:

[jayteeto]

If thats the case then no problems....... However if you are not given that many hours then................

[Art of flight]

Around the time of the original NPAS plan last October the 'thinking' was that each unit would fly around 1700 flying hours per year, this would include the 8 to 10 weeks using the allocated spare. So units that currently do around 1400 would carry on at about the same rate and those that do less will actually get to fly, free of local budget restrictions at last!

As for the TUPE topic, it's not simple, but the direct employ pilots will either be TUPE'd into the new setup or be made redundant by their existing employing force. It seems clear that NPAS would not want to take on pilots just to make them redundant the next day, the only issue is who pays the redundancy payment ( the responsibility is with the current employer).

[Final Flare]

once again all conjecture and speculation......

I happened across a rumour detailing the proposed schemes of financial savings to be introduced by NPAS over the next few years.

It intimates that NPAS directly employ pilots as a cost saving. I wonder if it would therefore be prudent that NPAS TUPE all directly employed pilots at commencement and then backfill with subcontracted/self employed pilots.

Can subcontracted pilots go back to their parent company's to be reassigned elsewhere????

Would that in effect negate a Nationwide/Europeanwide recruitment drive?????? Which would be a legality with the onset of a new National service.

Would it also negate redundancy packages/constructive dissmissal costings which have not been included in the supposed cost savings????

Please excuse me if i am being naive, I am just trying to understand the enormity of the turbulent journey ahead...

[Digital flight deck]

It would seem that as time goes on and without any contradiction from NPAS, all the pilots are up a very turbulent creek without anything like a paddle and the end state will only become apparent when that email arrives at 17:30 on a Friday afternoon. I find it unbelievable that they [NPAS] have no idea what the plan is for the future employ or otherwise of the pilots who have done nothing less that provide a loyal and professional service.

[Blue Thunder]

Its no secret that the miltary presently fly all NCIS missions here in the UK. Could they be looking at providing all pilots/crews for future NPAS police/surveillance ops? Think of NI but on a grander scale than just talking to the Garda. Change of cap badge maybe?

This message will self destruct in the next 5 mins!

[MightyGem]

Can subcontracted pilots go back to their parent company's to be reassigned elsewhere????
Not really, as the Police side of the business is(in our case) separate from the corporate side, which wouldn't be able to take up the slack. For others, it's the only side of their business.

[B.U.D.G.I.E]

Saw on the news tonight about the shootings in Norway. The image of that mad man stood over the bodies was taken by a news chopper. The police helicopter was stuck in the south of the area. Was this a massive hinderance to the police not getting on the island for 90 mins.

Does this whole NPAS smack of a similar situation if your air asset is miles away on a box ticker. :=

[SilsoeSid]

The police helicopter was stuck in the south of the area. Was this a massive hinderance to the police not getting on the island for 90 mins.

Does this whole NPAS smack of a similar situation if your air asset is miles away on a box ticker. :=

Of all the digs we have had at NPAS, this has to be the lamest. :=

Surely in this country we have 'other resources' available for this sort of thing.
'Resources' on 24/7 standby with the ac correctly fuelled, crewed and role'd. Able to land ad hoc under 'black light' with practised and current crews, carrying trained and practised 'firearms persons'.

[timex]

SS

Surely in this country we have 'other resources' available for this sort of thing.
'Resources' on 24/7 standby with the ac correctly fuelled, crewed and role'd. Able to land ad hoc under 'black light' with practised and current crews, carrying trained and practised 'firearms persons'.

Look at West Cumbria and Derek Bird....(and then they used the Firearms guys from Windscale and an RAF SAR cab).

[Coconutty]

Around the time of the original NPAS plan last October the 'thinking' was that each unit would fly around 1700 flying hours per year, this would include the 8 to 10 weeks using the allocated spare. So units that currently do around 1400 would carry on at about the same rate and those that do less will actually get to fly, free of local budget restrictions at last!So, a Unit currently flying 1400 Hrs a year will have to fly an extra 300 hours more each year, albeit on different aircraft utilising one or more of the "spares" ?

How many (of the remaining / planned to remain ) Units currently fly 1400+ Hrs each year ? - Not many I imagine.

Flying 1700 Hrs a year, even on a 24 Hr operation, taking into account inevitable down time due to weather & serviceability,
may mean a considerable increase in flying for a lot of Unit pilots ( a reason for not needing so many ???? :confused: )

Have NPAS consulted the CAA to consider the potential impact of such an increased workload & demand on pilots to fly these extra hours,
and consequently are there any plans to change the FTL's - one way or another ?

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[SilsoeSid]

Look at West Cumbria and Derek Bird....(and then they used the Firearms guys from Windscale and an RAF SAR cab).

OPERATION BRIDGE

PEER REVIEW INTO THE RESPONSE OF CUMBRIA CONSTABULARY
FOLLOWING THE ACTIONS OF DERRICK BIRD ON 2nd JUNE 2010. (http://www.cumbria.police.uk/Admin/uploads/attachment/files/News_Files/Inquest/Running_Orders/ACC_Chestermans_report.pdf)


No mention of Police helicopters carrying firearms teams, however;
Coincidentally that day, the BBC was filming an episode of “Helicopter Heroes” with the Yorkshire Air ambulance. This air ambulance service was deployed to West Cumbria as a result of the murders that occurred and in doing so, the BBC camera crew were conveyed straight to the scene of the incident.

The weather was a hinderance for any other helicopters to get into the area, BBC film crews I guess is ok, but I wonder what the moral issues of air ambulances ferrying around firearms teams would have been?

Armed response arrangements
In common with other forces of a similar demographic nature, Cumbria Constabulary’s ARV’s are not deployed solely on firearms related duties. On a day to day basis their main duties relate to roads policing. The vehicles are however also equipped as ARV’s crewed by Authorised Firearms Officers (AFO).

In addition, for a police helicopter to ferry a firearms team from its 'ready state', it would probably have to dump around 200 kgs of fuel.
How many units could readily do that?

So to have a go at NPAS in the Norway scenario is IMHO a bit below the belt, however, highlighting where West Cumbria is in the 20 minute circle plan might be above.

[morris1]

Of all the digs we have had at NPAS, this has to be the lamest.

No Silsoe... this is just the LATEST...!!

Give me a break.. get the military in for a job like this in under an hour..!!
Your having a laaaff..
Maybe if its within 10 miles of hereford.. but anywhere else and your stuffed..

As far as SAR are concerned, they work on 15 min readiness during the day and 45 min at night... to get airborne..!!

The military are good are what they do, but this isnt it..!!

So sorry old bean, the best/only airborne resource is actually the locally based Police a/c with crews that no know the area, the comms, the procedures and the cops.

Shame theyre all going really..!!!
what a cluster ****:ugh:

[B.U.D.G.I.E]

Surely in this country we have 'other resources' available for this sort of thing.

Sorry for going off topic slightly but you defo having a laugh if you think you'll get those boys on scene in 90 mins. It would take longer than that just to get the authorisation.

But why would you need it when you have a chopper to do the spotting (it's job) the ARV boys to do the job. All available 24/7. But only if the government have not moved them miles away to save money.

:ugh:

[SilsoeSid]

Give me a break.. get the military in for a job like this in under an hour..!!
Your having a laaaff..
Maybe if its within 10 miles of hereford.. but anywhere else and your stuffed..

The laaaff is thinking that you can get any police helicopter in the country into a condition to ferry any 4 armed officers to anywhere in the country within this magic hour.

By simply looking at a map, I think you'll find that Hereford is the ideal location to deploy to anywhere in England and Wales from :ok:


But why would you need it when you have a chopper to do the spotting (it's job) the ARV boys to do the job. All available 24/7. But only if the government have not moved them miles away to save money.

I think the point of this part of the thread is that the armed officers in Norway eventually got onto the island by any boat they could find. The dig is that the helicopter was 90 mins away and unable to get officers onto the island by air. Something that we, IMHO given this situation, wouldn't be able to do within an hour ourselves :ugh:


Anyway;
public domain
The job of the police would be to contain such a situation while the job of the SAS (Special Air Service), if called upon, would be to resolve it. (http://www.homelandsecuritynewswire.com/police-sas-train-mumbai-style-attack-uk)

[SilsoeSid]

Of all the digs we have had at NPAS, this has to be the lamest.
No Silsoe... this is just the LATEST...!!

Ok, so if you want to keep the Norway incident in the NPAS debate...

....if we had a similar incident on lets say Brownsea Island, (one of, if not the most intensely used camping facilities by the youth of this country), surely the NPAS plan of putting a police helicopter at Bournemouth is a good one !

[Fortyodd2]

"surely the NPAS plan of putting a police helicopter at Bournemouth is a good one" !

Apart from the landing fees, operating charges and the cost of fuel...............

[SilsoeSid]

"surely the NPAS plan of putting a police helicopter at Bournemouth is a good one" !

Apart from the landing fees, operating charges and the cost of fuel...............

But its not just about cost cutting, its also about operational effectiveness ! ;)

[morris1]

Without giving too much away, and as already mentioned by others, this scenario has been looked at for some time already. The end game being to move (a none disclosable number) more than two armed officers to a location by air. And I can assure you the drills completed by those involved took A LOT less than hour to get airborne. !!

What is the transit time from Hereford to say hmmmm the northwest ??
That's a long time if people are dying !
As mentioned before, hats off to the boys down Hereford, they're very good at what they do. But they'll never be in the right place to get to a scene quick enough in this scenario.
Although.... That sort of fits in with the npas ethos perfectly.! ie fewer a/c and always turning up late !!

[M609]

Was this a massive hinderance to the police not getting on the island for 90 mins

In a word: No (And for what it´s worth....60 minutes. 48 minutes from the time the local police district requested the Police National Response troop to respond.)

UK media reporting has been, well, a bit iffy on the subject

The Norwegian Police helo (singular....), EC-135 is only equipped for surveilance type jobs, and has no tactical transport capability. Its crew are NOT trained to do tactical insertions of the Police National Response troop.

The helo was not stuck "down south", it was stood down for summer holiday ( :uhoh: ) for a limited time to preserve actual on duty time for the rest of the year. Crews recalled from leave had the helo stationed at ENGM airborne within 2 hrs.

Police made a comment that the helo transport for the Police National Response troop was some way to the south. That is correct. That is the Bell 412s of the RNoAF 720 Sqn and to a lesser degree, the SAR helo of the 330 Sqn detatchment, both at Rygge/ENRY about 40nm south of Oslo.

720 Sqn are the ones that are supposed to fly both the Police and/or the Army SF folks.

15:30 Friday afternoon...........

[Digital flight deck]

Drifting a long way North of the subject I feel.

[SilsoeSid]

Seems that a few anti-NPAS'ers here tried a cheap shot and ended up with egg on their face.

Don't let facts get in the way of a good dig :ok:

[B.U.D.G.I.E]

EC-135 is only equipped for surveilance type jobs, and has no tactical transport capability.

Does it not have any seats then.


Just seems to illustrate the issues that could appear in the future, based on cost savings. :ugh:

[Digital flight deck]

More bull from the ignorant.

[Poltergeist]

In my previous life, I remember when we had a gazelle to trial the Air Support unit. it was viewed with suspicion as it meant the boat section (for a coastal force with several marinas) and the mounted section (south downs to patrol) were scrapped. The Bolkow arrived and had the Flir and other Kit and this was then replaced by the MD902 (I think that was the type) with all sorts of clever toys. It soon became a very important weapon in the Police armoury. As well as its surveillance duties, it carried a paramedic and was anywhere in the county in a very short time. PAS operated the aircraft and they positioned fuel strategically so if it got busy it did not have to keep returning to base.
It proved itself in searching for vulnerable people, delivering a paramedic quickly to any medical emergency particularly in the back of beyond and was invaluable in immediate crime scene containment and carried out several counter terrorism activities.
We all know they are expensive to run but I can not help thinking that reducing the number is going to increase risk public and police alike. The problem i have is that if you asked me what i would cut instead in the service, the answer is I do not know. Sadly, removing a few aircraft does produce a headline saving but, it does not tell the true, complete story IMHO.

[Blue Thunder]

Poltergeist's post mentions PAS and the early days.
I noticed that the company has changed hands again, something about it being sold to the previous owners brother on Helihub?
Was it for a pound, or just a name change on the books for tax or some other reason?
The SAS director quoted in the Helihub article, didnt want to confirm if the owner's bother had infact become the new owner. Is it true and why was it such a secret?

[land out]

I have been reading this topic with great interest and feel I should bring the important subject of Police Helicopter Budgets back to the front.

Art of Flight mentioned that the thinking was each remaining unit would fly 1700 hours a year, how many of these hours are on the all important tasks and how many are purely “wasted” on transits? Also who is paying for the transits?
Example, Liverpool or South Yorkshire, gone or down to go, get a job, (I use these as examples as I live and work in the areas covered by the aircraft involved). The closest aircraft is sent, calculated by lines on a map and realistic transit speeds and times, not NPAS delusionary ones, put the aircraft on task in about 20 mins. Whose budget/allowance does that come from, the force the aircraft came from? Or the force who wanted it? Also whilst the aircraft is transiting remember no one is getting any air support!!

Final Flare touched on a point, if this is to be a new single National Service then surly with the costs of pilots, engineering etc this would have to go to European tender and under the guise of saving money the cheapest would get it. (See a nice sideline in English language courses for whom ever gets the job).

Direct employed pilots are the responsibility of there current employer, correct? And therefore if they had to be made redundant not TUPE'd over how would this be done, and where would the money come from for payments, compensation etc, would this also be down to them?
If this is true then surly the contracts signed for contracted pilots and engineering may also not be safe as they are also the responsibility of the current police force not NPAS, and therefore when NPAS take over, the possible paying out and cancelling of these contract falls to the current forces also.

This could work out to be a very expensive exercise indeed.

To quote Final Flare again, excuse me if I am also being naïve and all of my comments are purely conjecture, but as someone living and working in the UK I truly fear the outcome of the country due not only Air Support cutbacks but police cutbacks on the whole.

[morris1]

silsoesid wrote:
Seems that a few anti-NPAS'ers here tried a cheap shot and ended up with egg on their face.

Don't let facts get in the way of a good dig

I see no egg..?
Its a simple fact that in a norway/cumbria/mumbai style attack, my unit and all the ones in my region will get armed officers on scene well within one hour.? its well rehearsed scenario in our region. I take it your unit dont train for it.?

You cant cut numbers of a/c and keep operational effectiveness at the same level. Thats simple maths.!

anyone in favour of npas is either:
not in a unit for the chop and hoping they wont have to apply for their own job (with fingers very tightly crossed)
Outside of police aviation and therefore not in possession of any actual facts.
A politician.
Alex Marshal.
A subordinate of Alex Marshal looking for promotion.
An idiot.

[SilsoeSid]

I see no egg..?


The 'egg' is someone posting...

The police helicopter was stuck in the south of the area. Was this a massive hinderance to the police not getting on the island for 90 mins.
Does this whole NPAS smack of a similar situation if your air asset is miles away on a box ticker. :=


... using it as a dig at NPAS and later finding out it wasn't quite the whole story :rolleyes:

[SilsoeSid]

Its a simple fact that in a norway/cumbria/mumbai style attack, my unit and all the ones in my region will get armed officers on scene well within one hour.? its well rehearsed scenario in our region. I take it your unit dont train for it.?

How easy it must be for you to have the ac prepared for just that scenario when everyone is where they need to be and fuel states, seats/eagle harnesses etc are sorted and fitted. All briefed up, rehearsed and ready to go at a moments notice. :suspect:

At a guess ;) in a unit that is fairly busy on all sorts of different tasking in both the urban and rural environments, if something was to happen round NOW, apart from dumping the 2 observers and emptying the ac of excess baggage in order to be within weight/CoG limits they might still have to lose a fair amount of fuel, especially in this heat, in order to fulfil the task. Despite possibly having a huge clear area to take off at high AUM.

Then of course there is the PAOM to look at.
After all, there is a whole load we can do under the heading 'Special Operations', but not without opening up a whole packet of sliced Emmental !

Me.?... I'd like an observer with me to not only to keep an eye on the pax, sort out the headsets/doors/landing site/extra eyes etc...but to tell me when the horns are beginning to sprout through my helmet :ok:

And then throw in the night !!! :ooh:

[SilsoeSid]

You cant cut numbers of a/c and keep operational effectiveness at the same level. Thats simple maths.!

Doesn't that totally depend on both where the a/c are based and what type of tasking is being performed?

[SilsoeSid]

anyone in favour of npas is either:
not in a unit for the chop and hoping they wont have to apply for their own job (with fingers very tightly crossed)
Outside of police aviation and therefore not in possession of any actual facts.
A politician.
Alex Marshal.
A subordinate of Alex Marshal looking for promotion.
An idiot.

Well, as far as broad brushing is concerned, that must certainly be a winner.

1. No cr@p Columbo!..Turkeys, Christmas and voting come to mind !
2. See 6.
3/4/5. :rolleyes:
6. There must be a lot of idiots around in Police Aviation then! :confused:

When I came into this business in 2003 (sprog!) the buzz words were already regionalisation & nationalisation and they weren't new concepts. Look at the amount of research, reports and papers written about it all even back then as well as now. It is my opinion that most people in or out of the business would agree that a national police aviation service and its concept is a good thing all round, even if it was to simply be regional units under one big umbrella.
Unfortunately nobody likes change, so there was always going to be a resistance from the start, however a lot more could have been done before the announcements were made last October.

Secrecy and the lack of passage of information has blackened 'NPAS' as a name.
Saving money is no doubt the driving force in all this, under the guise of an increased efficiency at the same time, which would never work. A good example of this is that with 7 months to NPAS we do not even know the host force, who is paying for it all, what will happen to all the assets , HR, contracts, fixed wing ac or even which forces are still prepared to pay more for a seemingly lesser service.

NPAS is the future !

[morris1]

no one is against change..
change needs to happen, but in the appropriate places..

Units that are backwards in their operating principles, sat on their arses waiting for the phone to ring, going days without flying a task... that needs to change..
Extortionate charges for pilotage, engineering and parts... that needs to change
Piecemeal procurement of a/c.. that needs to change.
Poor communication between units and a/c.. that needs to change.

reducing the number of a/c in busy municipal areas with high crime.. is just simple cost cutting.!

I take it the met are still refusing to play..? for good reason.!

[Wagging Finger]

Morris, who says the Met are refusing to play? and whats their reason? Last I knew they were joining NPAS later due to reasons of their own.

SS great posts and a good argument well made, I salute you. Can't see those urgent jobs getting done with no Observer on board, certainly not where I hail from anyway.

:=

[Blue Thunder]

With all the changes regarding NPAS and the likely change of operators and contracts from 1st April, I noticed a new part to the SAS-PAS-MAS "all change at the top" story on Helihub.

Could this be anything to do pilots contracts and redundancy payments with a new owner, even if it is the brother of the previous owner from Holland?

UK: Specialist Aviation Services adds two directors | Helihub - the Helicopter Industry Data Source (http://www.helihub.com/2011/07/25/uk-specialist-aviation-services-adds-two-directors/)

[B1.3 Drifter]

SilsoeSid, everyone is entitled to their own opinion but you are spouting about things that you obviously dont understand. Maybe you're just stirring because you like an argument but to those directly involved who are at risk of losing their jobs, this is quite a sensitive subject. Your uninformed comments aren't appreciated by many(Wagging Finger is obviously another who has no direct involvement and doesn't understand)
By your comments you are obviously not in police aviation(unless you are calling youself an idiot) and your comments are mostly guess work as you stated in post 1730
At a guess
And most of your guessing is wrong.

Nobody's talking about doing 'ugent jobs' without an observer on board, just a short transit flight from A-B to drop off the firearms officers, after which the pilot would RTB to collect the observers. Also it is unlikely that a fully kitted firearms officer is going to sit in the front left seat as they cannot enter and exit quickly enough, so unless the heli is near it's max weight, the front observer can stay aboard. Chances are pretty good that the aircraft will already be flying when it becomes apparent that there is a need for firearms involvement so the aircraft wont be fully fueled.

Doesn't that totally depend on both where the a/c are based and what type of tasking is being performed?

No!
If you reduce the number of aircraft there WILL be a reduction in service somewhere. End of!

[SilsoeSid]

Nobody's talking about doing 'ugent jobs' without an observer on board, just a short transit flight from A-B to drop off the firearms officers, after which the pilot would RTB to collect the observers.

One thing on that one B1.3 Drifter;

Is that a short transit flight from A-B to drop off the firearms officers and then go back to pick up the observers that you already had on board because we aren't talking about flying without observers? :confused:


your comments are mostly guess work as you stated in post 1730

Is that the sentence that starts, "At a guess ;) in a unit that is fairly busy on all sorts of different tasking.... "
:ugh:


And thats even before we get onto the loading issues you've brought up !
:E

[SilsoeSid]

No!
If you reduce the number of aircraft there WILL be a reduction in service somewhere. End of!

I know some people with a view on that opinion;

To B1.3 Drifter, with love Bronski Beat

[Coconutty]

And thats even before we get onto the loading issues you've brought up !

Aah - but in a 902 ( as driven by B1.3..) which is a much more capable aircraft,
( I guess ) they'll be able to carry the 4 Firearms Officers, all their kit and Observers no problem :rolleyes:

Shame that the limited number of 902's is also being cut under NPAS :oh:

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[SilsoeSid]

Also it is unlikely that a fully kitted firearms officer is going to sit in the front left seat as they cannot enter and exit quickly enough,

Who ever mentioned a firearms guy sitting in the front? :confused:


Chances are pretty good that the aircraft will already be flying when it becomes apparent that there is a need for firearms involvement so the aircraft wont be fully fueled.

Unless you are in a unit that regularly flies more than 12 hrs in a 24 hr period, that is absolute nonsense. :ugh:

so unless the heli is near it's max weight, the front observer can stay aboard.

So you always reach MAUW before any CoG issues come in to the equation! :rolleyes:

Remind me, what was it you said about me?

"You are spouting about things that you obviously dont understand.
Your uninformed comments
No direct involvement and doesn't understand
By your comments you are obviously not in police aviation
Your comments are mostly guess work"

Hello Pot this is Kettle, Over !

[SilsoeSid]

By your comments you are obviously not in police aviation

Does that include the comment that goes..."When I came into this business in 2003..."
:ugh:

[SilsoeSid]

Aah - but in a 902 ( as driven by B1.3..)

Shouldn't that be, ( as maintained by ...) ;)

[B.U.D.G.I.E]

Shame that the limited number of 902's is also being cut under NPAS

I think the amount of time they spent on the ground U/S had some thing to do with that.

:ugh:

[morris1]

So will someone please tell me how with a thirty percent reduction in a/c (and staff) there will NOT be reduction in provision for the Officers on the ground??

Are we really saying that less equalls more..?

Have we been doing thing SO badly, that someone is going to come with a magic wand, and make everyone perform 30% more efficiently than we do now.?

No.
The reality is, that major incidents will always see an a/c.
Murders and high profile searches will always see an a/c
Major firearms jobs will always see an a/c
(just like now)

Officers chasing a suspect thru gardens WONT get an a/c
Stolen motorbikes razzing around school fields WONT get an a/c
Intruders on at commercial properties WONT get an a/c
ie actual police work where collars get felt... WONT get an a/c

why ?
because too few a/c have too far to travel and are spread too thinly to be effective.

But at least we will all (we the chosen ones anyway) have a shiny new NPAS badge and will all be in the same boat. hurrah..

the biggest casualty is the actual police work being done as it is now. Getting the cops on board, to the job, to do the police work is what its all about.

We are about to become the PCSO's of the sky.. nice to see around but cock all use.

[B1.3 Drifter]

Is that a short transit flight from A-B to drop off the firearms officers and then go back to pick up the observers that you already had on board because we aren't talking about flying without observers

Ahhhh???? yes you were (post 1730 again)

apart from dumping the 2 observers ?

And so was wagging finger, read the posts.
Remember we are talking about exceptional cicumstances, the unit will do whatever it takes to get those firearms officers on site quickly.

Who ever mentioned a firearms guy sitting in the front? http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/confused.gif

No one, I was illustrating a point that the front seat could still be occupied by an observer, weight permitting

Unless you are in a unit that regularly flies more than 12 hrs in a 24 hr period, that is absolute nonsense.

Not neccesarily. Lets think about it a minute. (something you fail to do regularly)
First; the figure 1700 hrs/year has been thrown about. That is a lot of very busy helicopters that obviously wont be airbourne for 12 hours but there is a high possibility that at least one will be up at any given time in a particular region.
Second; A shooter pops up in a Sheffield (chosen because they wont have a helicopter there). Lets pretend North Mids and Humberside are both sitting on the ground at their respective bases, crew are feet up in the office or tea room. West Yorkshire is airborne on tasking but still has plenty of fuel on board. Which one are you going to send to Sheffield. Quite possibly more than one for the suggested situaton but the first on site will be the one thats already flying. Of course in this situation they will all be slightly down on fuel by the time the get to Sheffield.

Yes, there could arise a situation where the local helicopter is on the ground fully fueled and they want to lift the firearms officers from their current location.
Yes in this situation it could well take time to offload enough fuel and equipment to lift.
Of course on site engineers(what a clever idea) would help but no doubt NPAS are in favour of a single maintenance base 3 or 4 hours drive from most units(increased downtime, less available flying hours).

[SilsoeSid]

So will someone please tell me how with a thirty percent reduction in a/c (and staff) there will NOT be reduction in provision for the Officers on the ground??

Perhaps by sensible positioning of bases and deployment descisions remaining with the units themselves and not being made 'centrally'.

Have we been doing thing SO badly, that someone is going to come with a magic wand, and make everyone perform 30% more efficiently than we do now.?

Maybe, just maybe, if someone was to make a retrospective audit, we would find out that everthing that was done in the past was wasteful and not very well coordinated.

The reality is, that major incidents will always see an a/c.
Murders and high profile searches will always see an a/c
Major firearms jobs will always see an a/c
(just like now)

Absolutely, and so they should.

Officers chasing a suspect thru gardens WONT get an a/c
Stolen motorbikes razzing around school fields WONT get an a/c
Intruders on at commercial properties WONT get an a/c
ie actual police work where collars get felt... WONT get an a/c

I would have to disagree and say that as long as the deployment descisions were left at unit level, these tasks would still go ahead...as they are now, under the regional shadow services that are going on as we speak!


because too few a/c have too far to travel and are spread too thinly to be effective.
Unless positioning of bases is looked at sensibly.
Lets not forget that the 20 minute circle is from where the aircraft is and not neccesarily where the ac is based!

We are about to become the PCSO's of the sky.. nice to see around but cock all use

That comment is simply an insult to everyone involved in air support :=

[SilsoeSid]

B1, may I respectfuly suggest you read your own posts before clicking on the 'submit reply' button.

Nobody's talking about doing 'ugent jobs' without an observer on board, just a short transit flight from A-B to drop off the firearms officers, after which the pilot would RTB to collect the observers.

In your own words, you have deployed the firearms officers without observers on board!

As you like to refer to post 1730, you'll notice that in that post I said, "Me...I'd like an observer with me...."
What is so difficult to understand about that?

[SilsoeSid]

Remember we are talking about exceptional cicumstances, the unit will do whatever it takes to get those firearms officers on site quickly.

Quite correct, however as long as that whatever doesn't mean exceeding weights, CoG's and complies with what is written in the PAOM!

[SilsoeSid]

SSUnless you are in a unit that regularly flies more than 12 hrs in a 24 hr period, that is absolute nonsense.

B1
Not neccesarily. Lets think about it a minute. (something you fail to do regularly)
First; the figure 1700 hrs/year has been thrown about. That is a lot of very busy helicopters that obviously wont be airbourne for 12 hours but there is a high possibility that at least one will be up at any given time in a particular region.

Firstly lets stop getting personal here. :=
Now then, yes the 1700 hrs figure was mentioned here, but if you read the post fully, you'll see that it was an example figure and therefore cannot be taken in any context as a useable figure. :ugh:


What you said was;
Chances are pretty good that the aircraft will already be flying when it becomes apparent that there is a need for firearms involvement so the aircraft wont be fully fueled

Contrary to your comment, I did think about it and in order to say that the chances are pretty good that the aircraft will be airborne when needed, does actually mean that the aircraft would have to be in the air for a greater time than it is on the ground. I would also stick my neck out and say from experience, that the chances are that even regionally it wouldn't be so.
Thats the thing about chance, you have to stack the odds in your favour to succesfully predict them!

[morris1]

Maybe, just maybe, if someone was to make a retrospective audit, we would find out that everthing that was done in the past was wasteful and not very well coordinated.


so EVERYTHING we have done in the past has been wasteful not very coordinated..? Well Im sure plenty of other units around the uk would disagree that they are doing such a crap job of things at the moment..!

Perhaps by sensible positioning of bases and deployment descisions remaining with the units themselves and not being made 'centrally'.

Have you seen the circles on maps where south yorks are being removed..?
And deployment decisions will not be made locally, hence the approach to BTP to act as nationwide despatch (which i believe they have kindly refused), the search is on for someone else to host the central despatch function.

Lets not forget that the 20 minute circle is from where the aircraft is and not neccesarily where the ac is based!

Well my unit will be taking up the slack from a removed a/c.. who i know are currently flying 1200hrs a year.. I can tell you now that we will rarely if ever be within 20 mins of their main current operating area, neither will the adjoining a/c surrounding it. Thats a lot of hours to be made up, and i assume the removed a/c's home force who will be paying for provision will expect to see a/c over their city when requested.
So we are going to fly 20mins (at best) to assist officers in a foot chase or a pursuit, 2 counties away?.. (and thats IF you find about it while its happening and not ten minutes after the cops on the ground have lost sight of the suspect and put the request thru to the NPAS control room.)

But your wrong about the 20 min circles anyway, because the ones drawn on the maps from NPAS are indeed from the bases that remain.


Quote:
We are about to become the PCSO's of the sky.. nice to see around but cock all use
That comment is simply an insult to everyone involved in air support

No.. I stand by that.. I am in air support and i think youll find people have thicker skins than that..!
We will end up turning up too little, too late, to be effective.
We will however have nice long transit times to take in the scenary..

Most units around the uk seem to think that NPAS will mean the same old job but with a bigger area.. Thats not the case. Central despatch and tasking will take all local decision making out of the hands of individual units.
Maybe you will be "able" to deploy to local tasks, but your not a "local" asset anymore, you dont belong to your local force, you have no ties to them financially, logisticaly, operationaly.. you can only deploy with permission from central despatch, because you wont know what other deployments they may have waiting for you..!
Deployments are to be controlled centrally (hence the "national" bit of the name and the hunt for a host force plus the administritive duties).

And on top of all that no one actually knows whos job is safe and whos are going, or whether you will need to apply in a competitive process for your own job..

sounds like a winner..!!:}