UK Police helicopter budget cuts

[SilsoeSid]

Silsoe Sid posts make his job sound like Miami Vice.Is the guy working in some crime ridden part of the UK I've never heard? Maybe more likely the scenic part of the west midlands and watching too many action movies I guess it's the old ex military pilot thing of every flight becoming a mission.

Yes Phil, there clearly is a crime ridden part of the UK that you've not heard of. Sometimes, real life is more exciting than TV!

Please tell us your definition of a mission.
I would say it was, thanks to google, something like; 'sending out or being sent out with authority to perform a special service'.
:ok:

[jayteeto]

I always have accepted that cuts have to be made across the board!! Read again please what I said. If cuts are to be made, then make sensible decisions on the cuts! Some of the things that are to be done are wasting money!!
I will take up on your quote that 80% of mispers turn up safe later. Thats way out..... 99.9% turn up safe later. A large majority go missing 2 or 3 times a week, especially from childrens homes. The problem is that the home staff are compelled to report to police. The police are compelled to search for them using all available resources, supervision have been sacked for not doing so. Yes, that is correct, Inspectors and Sergeants sacked because they used their staff to attend crime scenes instead of searching for mispers. So you saying spending an hour looking for x/y/z over Bootle is not on, then what will happen in the future?? A helicopter can do the work of a load of cops, clearing open areas quickly. If you lose the helicopter in some areas, believe me, you will NOT see more size 12s on the beat, they will all be in Bootle looking for some shoplifting scally, stolen car or misper who will turn up later.
What you say makes absolute sense in theory, unfortunately real life is not theory.
PS. Miami Vice is tame compared to some British Inner Cities.
PPS. Every flight IS a mission, in the Air Ambo world we still call them exactly that. , ie we aim to be professional from crew brief to going home.
PPPS. Angry now after reading your changes to post. Easy and we never fly anything difficult? You complete Stroker!! You have no idea you idiot.

JT now retiring angry.

[Phil Space]

Silsoe Sid
I would say it was, thanks to google, something like; 'sending out or being sent out with authority to perform a special service'.

Nurses,paramedics,ambulance crews,teachers,doctors, etc.

Where do I stop.

Flying a helicopter is not rocket science and you do not need a uni degree.

Flying a turbine helicopter or single engine turboprop is a piece of cake so do not try to make out you are some sort of super hero. That role is left to guys flying real rescue missions in units such as 202 Sqdn:D

[S76Heavy]

Where do I stop.
Try here for a change.

[SilsoeSid]

Nice big edit there Phil, so big I had to adjust this reply.

That is the old military institutionalism still coming through. I'm sure a nurse
carries the same motivation without the sort of pay and pension a police pilot gets.
No, that is my employers mission statement and as for nurses I totally agree. But what do you do? Pay the nurses more (yes please!) or pay the pilots less?
Whichever you decide, the pay still comes from the same tax payers pocket. :ugh:



Rubbish. You are not flying alone and probably have never had to since you soloed.
Try flying a single engine aircraft VFR from Wales to Jersey at night or across the Bahamas and paying for it SS and I think you find out what a cushy number you are on with the latest up to date kit.

Sorry to burst your bubble Phil, you couldn't be further from the truth.
Rather than open up my history to all that visit and read here, I invite you to get in touch for you to visit us. I will bring my log books in for your inspection over a brew and digestive. :ok:

I think the whole matter is summed up with the '...and paying for it SS and I think you find out what a cushy number you are on with the latest up to date kit.' part of your post.


I guess you are lucky enough to have a military and civvy flying pension.
Am I not allowed a military pension after all those years?
What civvy flying pension?

There are low paid hospital and council workers further down the food chain not so fortunate .
Not so fortunate as who? Didn't we all start off somewhere?
As fortunate as someone starting off stacking shelves in a local supermarket. Then joining the ranks, digging shoite pits, refuelling/cleaning/pushing/pulling aircraft in all sorts of weathers, endless hours stood in a trench or stood on camp gates/crawling through mud and other military type activities at minus brass monkey temperatures. Doing what you were told when you were told and respecting others? Or expecting to always be on time dressed immaculately and fined if you faultered from the expected standards.
Someone that managed to end up flying one of the most advanced Police Helicopter in the World, through hard work alone?

There will always be council workers and hospital workers, some of us have been there, and there will always be someone wishing to do something else....like fly helicopters.


A little bit of humility and less arrogance would not go amiss.
Sorry, I don't quite get that one.
If you can't realise what the job entails, it's you're matter to find out if you're not prepared to listen to those that do it.


Answer me this, where do you get the impression that all Police pilots are ex-mil?

[SilsoeSid]

Flying a helicopter is not rocket science and you do not need a uni degree.

Flying a turbine helicopter or single engine turboprop is a piece of cake so do not try to make out you are some sort of super hero. That role is left to guys flying real rescue missions in units such as 202 Sqdn

Correct, I'll also bring along my CSE certificate for you to look at.

In basic terms you are correct about flying Phil, it didn't take long for most of us to go solo on the Chipmunk/Gazelle, but like most things in life...it's not what you've got, it's what you do with it ;)

It was only 6 posts ago but I say again, 'I don't think any of us think ourselves to be superheroes, just doing the job to the best of our abilities.'
I wonder if we have any ex 202 mates in the job :ok:


Phil, I suggest you listen to S76Heavy, before you spill into the SAR-H debate ;)

[SilsoeSid]

Silsoe Sid

Quote:
I would say it was, thanks to google, something like; 'sending out or being sent out with authority to perform a special service'.

Nurses,paramedics,ambulance crews,teachers,doctors, etc.

Where do I stop.

They all have mission statements :p

West Midlands Ambulance Service (http://www.wmas.nhs.uk/about_us/trust_board/mission_statement.aspx)
Our Mission Statement
Delivering the right patient care, in the right place, at the right time, through a skilled and committed workforce, in partnership with local health economies

School_mission_statements.html (http://www.missionstatements.com/school_mission_statements.html)
A few on the above link

SchoolInfo/MissionStatement (http://www.sandwellacademy.com/SchoolInfo/MissionStatement/tabid/316/Default.aspx)
Mission Statement

'To raise educational standards through effective practice and share this with the wider community.

Even doctors surgeries

Bainbridge Island Family Practice Doctor - Mission Statement (http://www.michaelrparkermd.com/mission.html)


Phil, You really are simply talking Arse!

[props stopped]

I think most folk in the industry think that the new national coverage is the way to go, it gives EVERY force (rich or poor) the use of air support WHEN its needed.

Its the money or lack of it that is causing the cut backs, chiefs have all been told to make it work (they do get well paid to sit in their plush offices).

I spent a long time flying for the cops in the north east and sometimes we never turned a blade, especially during daylight hours.

Billy burglar is the main bread and butter of air support from where I was sat, and thats usually night work, for garden searches etc. (If the area was ever contained)

Mispers as mentioned earlier are usually a tick in box callout, and are often under the bed or round at a friends. Remember if its a rural search there is always the SAR helicopter units who will do the search FREE of charge. It only takes a phone call to RCC Kinloss. One way or another weather permitting a helicopter will be available for missing person searches in the UK.

IF we were lucky, we would fly for 15 minutes a day to a fly the flag job of some kind during the daytime hours. If the naughty boys were caught it was the same old story, slapped wrist and dont do it again, until tomorrow that is, and they would be running from the same corner shop again!

If we ever did attend a RARE pursuit once a month, we followed a conga line of traffic and pandas all wanting to join the exciting chase with lights and sirens, which usually came to stop BECAUSE of a stinger, and the naughty boys all got bit by a land shark if the were unlucky (dog).

You know the way it goes, the observer zooms in until the runner is about to be tackled and then the camera is waved around the sky to save any future claims for GBH being recorded against the cops by the scrotes.

Those LONG 12 hour shifts were often spent shuffling the same pile of news papers, reading lads mags, and playing games on the laptop.

The boys in blue were usually squabling about who was at the top of the overtime list and would they be on double time again, especially if another observer rang in sick within the 8hr police time rule. Not forgetting who's turn it was to make the tea, and to shine their boots every hour just incase any supervision turned up unexpectedly to see what was going on at the sharp end.

If it was a night duty you could at least wash, polish and hoover the car in the hangar. Washing cars during the day like I saw on the Surrey cop thread pics in another thread on pprune was a no no, and woe betide you if you got caught changing a wiper blade in the public car park like one of our observers did (no overtime for a week)!

The bright side to things is that those pilots who will be still employed under the new NPAS setup will be getting a shed load of flying in compared to the old days of a one force helicopter which usually doesnt turn a blade during the day (in the north east that is) :ok:

Good luck to those lucky NPAS drivers who will actually be airborne instead of being sat for 12 hours at a time like we all where. After all thats why pilots learn to fly isnt it.

[SilsoeSid]

Unfortunately we fall into the traps of past memories/operating procedures and 'practises', assuming that the unit we know about only flys 275 hrs a year, forgetting the unit that flys up to 1400hrs and not realising that if there is a lull in crime, there will also be a lull in flying rate.

After all, in any job of this type, we can only do what there is to do. If no one came into A&E one night, is it a waste of time and money that the highly trained Doctors and Nurses are there drinking hot chocolate and nibbling digestives? Likewise the Fire and Ambulance Services. Closer to home, if a doctor is on an air ambulance one day and they aren't called to any jobs, shouldn't the Doctor have been better employed in a hospital where they could be doing some good as an extra pair of hands.

Some fail to see that you can't quantify a lot of public sector jobs, surely we aren't paid for what we do, but for what we can do.
For the sake of argument, if it appeared that people had stopped dropping litter on the streets, would we sack the road sweeper?

We have a picture of a purpose built hangar and facilities in the middle of the countryside, a local cafe for lunch and we forget the more 'practical' base, central to a region of high crime, where a hot meal is inevitably left on the table as soon as it is placed there as the radio call requesting help comes in.

Not all of us sit round doing little for a lot of the time, some of us usually do useful things during down times. As an aside, I wonder what your local fireman is doing now, I know that we don't have snooker or tale tennis tables or even beds at our base....or do you have a go at them using different usernames on their sites?


p.s.
The wobbly camera statement;
Every crim caught after 'doing a runner' claims police brutality of some sort. However, because some of these apprehensions are captured on camera, that claim is rapidly retracted. Thereby not allowing the crims to be awarded more tax payers money through this false claim and protecting the integrity of the officer, and everyone else up the chain, all the way to the award court that would have to say that there was police brutality even when there was none.
If the practise that props described still happens, then that only helps the crims and not the officers.

[Fly_For_Fun]

Phil
Flying a helicopter is not rocket science and you do not need a uni degree.
Very astute.
I got it from the figures quoted 3 or 4 posts ago by Ye Olde Pilot.
Inordinate stupidity.
I've added £150 an hour for non direct costs
such as the police observer and admin.
Not a mathematician either then?

I suppose the main argument from you seems to be that you have to pay for your flying, and your taxes being spent on Police Helicopters could be better spent on your private flying. Perhaps if you had tried harder at school you could have become a professional helicopter pilot flying a twin turbine machine and been paid for it.

Sits back and smiles with satisfaction at how well I have done when neither a rocket scientist or mathematician. :rolleyes:

[props stopped]

Silsoe, it must be different up north then, but I think not, as a lot of forces used to visit the northern lands to see how how air support was done, and the budget allowed for over a thousand hours per year at both northern shire bases. (use them hours or lose them was the word from the UEO)

There are also a lot of hours of video tape (over the years) showing exactly what I mentioned when it came to the final scrum when the runner hit the deck, but hey ho it matters not, the truth is out there and all in a cupboard or two.

I've even witnessed a young chap in cuffs, who managed to let himself out of an unlocked police car, being then cornered in a garden while being watched by me and the crew, only for the young chap to become lunch for an over eager police person with a dog, even though the crim was cornered behind a shed! That was all recorded on tape with sound as the cop had the radio transmit button pressed as he told the dog to have a go! I wonder how much the lad would have got if he'd got a copy of that tape!

NPAS is the way to go and lets hope everyone can use air support WHEN they need it.

Do Strathclyde still work half the day? it made sense to a few of us at the time.

[SilsoeSid]

Props;Silsoe, it must be different up north then, but I think not, as a lot of forces used to visit the northern lands to see how how air support was done,

Yet things were learnt from up north that made other units do things differently. What does that tell us?
Diffferent units, different areas of operation, different SOPs developed. We all learn from each other, but you cannot apply rural area operating methods to urban. Wouldn't it be silly, for example, to base a National Police Aviation plan on how rural forces operate and not find out how things are done in 'the smoke'?

I think we have a similar incident to yours, but on DVD ;)

Totally agree with your NPAS statement, aviation where and when it is needed. :ok:

[ShyTorque]

I think Phil Space has possibly broken all records for the most uninformed and bigoted tosh ever posted on Rotorheads.

Well done, keep it up, very amusing. :D

P.S. Please tell us all, in your ultimate wisdom, how you do this:

Try flying a single engine aircraft VFR from Wales to Jersey at night

[SilsoeSid]

Phil,

I understand your upset about public sector pilots. I honestly don't want to seem patronising, but I can see that you are upset because your (and our) tax money pays for other more qualified and experienced pilots than yourself to fly publicly funded aircraft.

You seem to be under the impression that all police pilots are ex-mil. This simply is not the case and if you want a champion for 'civil' police pilots, I'm your man. (Our unit is 50/50 ex-mil/civ line pilots) You must understand that we all got to the same place by different paths, by gaining different but no less important experiences. None of these paths were easy and we all had to go through a whole load of varying depth shoite to get here.


Can you define your definition of flying alone please. Is it actually alone in the ac by yourself or solo with pax? And how much more difficult is it to fly across the Bahamas if you're paying for it, than if its free or even if you're getting paid for it?

You may well think that we are on a cushy number, but it's the experiences that we have all had in the past that make it seem that way. At no stage are we less attentive to things such as flight safety, rules/regs, CRM etc and don't be mislead into thinking we dont realise how fortunate we are to be doing this job and just how good it is. However, when the job takes a surprising turn, the days of things slightly more taxing than a pre-planned flight from Wales to Jersey at night VFR in a single engined ac come into their own.


You may well say, "Flying a turbine helicopter or single engine turboprop is a piece of cake" but don't forget that anyone has the ability to fly themselves into trouble, it's the not getting there in the first place that counts. However, should you end up there, it's then the experience and training that helps you resolve the situation.

[SilsoeSid]

I just want to get this straight;

Phil Space
Rubbish. You are not flying alone and probably have never had to since you soloed.
Try flying a single engine aircraft VFR from Wales to Jersey at night or across the Bahamas and paying for it SS and I think you find out what a cushy number you are on with the latest up to date kit.

The latest up to date kit....now, I wonder what that would include ;)

3 letters beginning with....

[B.U.D.G.I.E]

"I got it from the figures quoted 3 or 4 posts ago by Ye Olde Pilot.
£2345 per flying hour plus I've added £150 an hour for non direct costs
such as the police observer and admin. "

Excellent work that's two of you who don't know what you're talking about

Phil please don't stop posting it's the most amusing rubbish we have seen for a while............

Yes we all know they helicopter costs money and for those involved we all know how it can be effective and what it can do....For the non believers if the helicopter does nothing else except for misper it will pay for it's self in no time. For every dead body found by the police that has to have an investigation for the coroner to work out why, the cost to the tax payer is 1 million pounds.
So if the police helicopter finds 6 people that would have died it's paid for its self. If you cut the number of choppers expecting to increase the number of boots on streets. It won't take long for the money to run out when the mispers don't get found. (just ask warms police when they gave up the motorway)

[volrider]

Not been on this thread for a while but had to thank Phil for some amusement in these dark days...
Phil I congratulate you on your posts, I thought all good British Comics had died, but no your there with some great wind up comments:}
I did a bit of research on the internet and is this you??

http://smallport.co.uk/ugly-man-boys-stupid-looking.jpg

I sense you may have been a failed helicopter pilot not able to get into HEMS work?

Maybe this is the reason your jealous??

http://www.timemachinego.com/linkmachinego/images/invisible_helicopter.jpg

Anyway Phil your fan club grows. My missus bought me two tickets to see Peter Kay , sadly her 90 squid is now in the gurbby hands of an internet ticket scam. I am at loss for a good laugh, you appearing anywhere???
:ok:

[2896]

Just to add some realism to this thread and for the info of the lurkers who might be interested:

All costs of running our ASU down to the office biro is £1000 per flying hour.

Aviation = the more you fly the cheaper it gets.

[Fly_For_Fun]

http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee53/lynxpilot/38bd6a411.jpg

[yme]

FFF
Any body would think you were pleased with yourself for being one of them there Heliplopter pilots!

:ok:

[Fly_For_Fun]

Just a little surprised mate.:confused:

[yme]

Why for you surprised FFF? Phil has told us all in not so many words " any one can do it!
Possibly, given enough time, money, experience, training and common sense.

[SilsoeSid]

Come on Phil;

3 letters beginning with...

#1 - 'A' for Air
;)

#2...

[Phil Space]

Silsoe
Thanks for posting a reasonable reply unlike some of your more juvenile rants.
Silsoe Sid wrote
Phil,
I understand your upset about public sector pilots. I honestly don't want to seem patronising, but I can see that you are upset because your (and our) tax money pays for other more qualified and experienced pilots than yourself to fly publicly funded aircraft.
I'm not sure how you see that. By qualified do you mean hours or years?
I don't doubt you are a good pilot and work well within the parameters of being a driver but at the end of the day you have no control on where and when you go. You seem to want to slag off private owners and pilots as being 'inferior' aviators.

I am not upset about public sector pilots anymore than other public employees but when it comes to spending other people money its easy to fire up and fly. The various police "Action/Reality' series did not sell the idea of the 'boys enjoying the toys' too well. The Essex police traffic cops with their Subaru's is a case in point. Most cars are not stolen to re-sell but by young yobs trying to get the police traffic units and helicopters involved in a real version of Grand Theft Auto.
You seem to be under the impression that all police pilots are ex-mil. This simply is not the case and if you want a champion for 'civil' police pilots, I'm your man. (Our unit is 50/50 ex-mil/civ line pilots) You must understand that we all got to the same place by different paths, by gaining different but no less important experiences. None of these paths were easy and we all had to go through a whole load of varying depth shoite to get here.


And I suppose you look down on private helicopter and fixed wing pilots because you think we have never done that.
I've been flying for 30 years Silsoe (both rotary and fixed wing) in various parts of the world. I've got no argument with how any pilot gets to make a living out of flying but having spent quite a bit of time over the years with both army and RAF I've come to the conclusion the boys in brown often need an extra chip detector for the shoulders. In the 202 Sqn they used to joke about "where do chopper pilots go when they fail....Middle Wallop".

Can you define your definition of flying alone please. Is it actually alone in the ac by yourself or solo with pax? And how much more difficult is it to fly across the Bahamas if you're paying for it, than if its free or even if you're getting paid for it?

Easy answer there. Commercial pilots never get to choose how why when and where they go. Someone else does that and they do the driving and get paid.
How easy is it to fly alone long distance? Well let me ask you if you have ever flown on your own for 5 or 6 hours where you have chosen when and where to go? Long boring legs across the desert with one engine and no radio contact?
You may well think that we are on a cushy number, but it's the experiences that we have all had in the past that make it seem that way. At no stage are we less attentive to things such as flight safety, rules/regs, CRM etc and don't be mislead into thinking we dont realise how fortunate we are to be doing this job and just how good it is. However, when the job takes a surprising turn, the days of things slightly more taxing than a pre-planned flight from Wales to Jersey at night VFR in a single engined ac come into their own.

Pre-planned? Do you think private fixed and rotary pilots spend days working out where to go? It's often on a whim and many a time I've just dropped in somewhere for lunch.It might sound nice but UK weather changes quickly as you know.
I can tell you that there is a great deal of risk for a fixed wing pilot flying across the water to Jersey. As for workload try hand flying an instrument approach in a Piper PA32 with a 20 knot crosswind in poor vis in to Jersey at night and a u/s autopilot.

You may well say, "Flying a turbine helicopter or single engine turboprop is a piece of cake" but don't forget that anyone has the ability to fly themselves into trouble, it's the not getting there in the first place that counts. However, should you end up there, it's then the experience and training that helps you resolve the situation.

That's for sure but the helicopter offers a lot more escape routes. I learnt on the little piece of sh*t that is called the R22. When I got to fly the B206 it was like driving a nice car. Have you ever flown a rubbish helicopter?

How many hours have you ever flown where you have total control on where and why you go?

[Art of flight]

Not sure what most of the recent posts have to do with the reduction in Police helicopter numbers, as usual with most threads, this one has descended into envy, ill founded argument, and a total disregard for facts.

I have flown military, private, corporate and police and can attest that flying the EC135 is easier than the R22, teaching air combat on NVG is harder than taking the rich and well heeled from Battersea to Ascot and back, but I know which aircraft is right for for hovering at night at 1500' over some dimly lit farm yard in Norfolk for 40 minutes, and which is more suitable for basic instruction. The basic fact is that we each do what we do with the tools available in each role. If you think any of the Essex ASU guys thought being a part of 'Interceptors' was a good idea then you're on the wrong planet, they took part because those above agreed it, period.
If you think that ASU crews don't know that a lot of what we get deployed to is a complete pile of sh$t then join those on the aforementioned other planet. We do give feedback, but we are employees of a uniformed and disciplined organisation and when a request becomes an order we get on with it even against our strongest advice. None of us enjoy wasting public money but an element of that is sadly built in.

Carry on with the civi-versus-ex-mil pi$$ing (pi@@ing) contest elseware, while you guys do that those of us actually doing the job night after night will get on with it to the best of our ability until we get the 3 month warning.

Those within UK police aviation will be aware that most units have at least one member as part of a working group, it's slow progress towards full NPAS, but be assured that those at or near the coal face are getting their points to the those at the top before irreversible decisions are implemented.

Regards to all, have a nice day...

[Phil Space]

I'm just a person who has paid every single penny for my own helicopter and fixed wing flying over the last 30 years so have an eye on public waste.

I can understand how a few on here are getting wound up but the bottom line is there has to be cuts.

I am not prepared to see the current waste of public money chasing young kids who play a game with the police helicopters and traffic police. The infrastructure
encourages bored kids on council estates to steal cars for the chase.

At least 80% of police air support is a total waste of time when it comes to court and cost v result.

My name is a giveaway about what I do for a living but the bottom line is
none of the traffic or air support unit guys want to go back to pounding the beat.

Sorry but as Eric Pickles has demonstrated this is 2011.

[B.U.D.G.I.E]

You are quite correct in what you say. Most of what the police do in general is a complete waste of time and money but you can blame the courts,government and the human rights act for all that cr@p. If air support was just used for the times when it is effective then it would not cost so much to run. Arse covering is sadly a culture that has grown and at a huge price. Maybe the government should cut some of that rather than budgets and helicopters.:ok:

[Phil Space]

Thanks Budgie

You say
Most of what the police do in general is a complete waste of time and money but you can blame the courts,government and the human rights act for all that cr@p.
Traffic police and ASU have been drawn in to this game that bored kids on council estates play.
I doubt there is any police pilot on here that has not been involved in a stolen car chase with youngsters on council estates.

If air support was just used for the times when it is effective then it would not cost so much to run.

Well let us hope the new strategy will do that.

Looking at the broader picture plod needs size 10's on the beat again with less emphasis on hitting soft targets like motorists.

[J.A.F.O.]

Phil

You are clearly a reasonably intelligent and hard working chap as you have earned enough to fund your passion for private flying but you are basing your arguments on an entirely spurious set of ideas and notions.

It isn't like the telly, not at all, not even a bit.

80% of it isn't waste.

Everyone knows there have to be cuts.

I don't understand many of your arguments, nobody was trying to say that private aviators were inferior, in fact no-one here gave a toss about private aviators until you brought it up. Nobody here cares if you've flown for 37 hours straight, facing backwards in the baggage compartment with one hand tied behind your back because it has nothing to do with what we were trying to discuss.

Every time you post you make yourself appear stupid - which I am certain you are not - but you are woefully ill informed. It seems to me as though half of your arguments are baseless and the other half are irrelevant; I’m not spoiling for a fight, just trying to explain to you why you are not making any headway here.

[B.U.D.G.I.E]

Looking at the broader picture plod needs size 10's on the beat again with less emphasis on hitting soft targets like motorists.


in the days of dixon from dock green maybe. Now it's different. The scum bags are using differing techniques and the police need to shift with them.

Yeah kids used to chase around in nicked cars. Helicopters stopped that cause every time they did it traffic cops flooded the estates and found them. Now its a different story.

Kids don't nick cars to race around in, they are the bottom of the food pile for crime groups using there skills to their ends. Now the cars get nicked, parked up and if the police don't find them in a few hours with or with out tracking devices then they are out of the country on a boat.

There nicking cars that are far quicker than the crap ford focuses and the police can't all afford fleets of scoobies. So you need to change methods. Even if you do drop in behind a stolen Audi A5 rs quattro if they drive like a loon (and they do) you can't catch them. Hence air support. It must work cause one of the choppers got torched.

Yes your taxes are paying for this,so are mine. But if they don't get caught and the police do something about it then you car insurance will go up. Your house insurance will start asking what cars do you have and that will go up. That is also a tax.

[Phil Space]

Sorry Budgie but I do not agree with police traffic cars or helicopters chasing stolen cars. Cars are low value in the UK compared to other parts of the world.
High end stolen cars are not being taken by yobbos on estates such as Corby or Kirby.
There is more important social crime such as drug dealing and drug dependancy
that is funded by most burglaries and petty theft. Until drugs are made legal for addicts we will never stop the dog chasing the tail.

Let me stress again I am not anti police helicopters I just want the resource used responsibly.

[Fly_For_Fun]

Phil, you come across as a bigoted and stupid old fool, just read some of the drivel you have written, and just in one post.


By qualified do you mean hours or years?work well within the parameters of being a driverI am not upset about public sector pilots anymore than other public employeeswhen it comes to spending other people money its easy to fire up and fly.I've got no argument with how any pilot gets to make a living out of flying but having spent quite a bit of time over the years with both army and RAF I've come to the conclusion the boys in brown often need an extra chip detector for the shoulders. In the 202 Sqn they used to joke about "where do chopper pilots go when they fail....Middle Wallop".You an Ex/current search and rescue pilot?

Commercial pilots never get to choose how why when and where they go. Someone else does that and they do the driving and get paid.
How easy is it to fly alone long distance? Well let me ask you if you have ever flown on your own for 5 or 6 hours where you have chosen when and where to go? Long boring legs across the desert with one engine and no radio contact?I can tell you that there is a great deal of risk for a fixed wing pilot flying across the water to Jersey. As for workload try hand flying an instrument approach in a Piper PA32 with a 20 knot crosswind in poor vis in to Jersey at night and a u/s autopilotI learnt on the little piece of sh*t that is called the R22.

[J.A.F.O.]

Phil

You're still not making sense - if you think car crime is not connected in any way to drug use and burglary then you're wrong.

If an officer requests that a vehicle stops and it fails to do so then you have to ask why; is it because it's stolen or is it any number of a hundred other reasons? You don't know until it stops.

As I pointed out a long time ago chasing cars is a very small percentage of real ASU use, it happens a lot on the telly because it makes good telly, that's the only reason.

I'm going to give up on this now and go and explain calculus to our dog, it'll be easier (and I'm not even going to pick the smarter dog).

[SilsoeSid]

Hi Phil,

I am not prepared to get into a public pi$$ing match here about what we have done and where. As I have already said, you are more than welcome to visit our unit to see for yourself what actually goes on in this business and if you wish I will bring my log book in for you to look through.

To go through your points,

I didn't say qualified pilots I said, "more qualified and experienced pilots than yourself".
Your profile says;
'Licence Type:
PPL (A) & (H)

Therefore, every Police pilot is in fact more qualified than you are and, (clearly you would argue the point), IMO more experienced.
Where have I slagged off private pilots or owners? It's simply not true and if you knew me you would realise this.
Just because I choose not to spend my spare money on flying ... :confused:

You must understand that these TV programmes are just that, straight from the lie box. The problem is, and it seems you might not be the only one ;) , that you have looked at one force on the TV and compared the rest of the countries units to that. :=



Most cars are not stolen to re-sell but by young yobs trying to get the police traffic units and helicopters involved in a real version of Grand Theft Auto
What utter rubbish! When you visit us, we can cover this in depth.

Not quite sure what the bit about the Army chip detector is about.

It seems to me that you could be a SAR wanabee/walt or that you simply failed selection.
I must admit, I've never heard the remark; In the 202 Sqn we used to joke about "where do chopper pilots go when they fail....Middle Wallop".
It would seem strange that a Pilot Offr or Sub Lt having failed a wings course would then go to to MW, even after a possible time bar. Besides, why is it just said in that Sqn?


Pre-planned? Do you think private fixed and rotary pilots spend days working out where to go? It's often on a whim and many a time I've just dropped in somewhere for lunch.It might sound nice but UK weather changes quickly as you know.
Sounds like there could be a bit of a stretching of licence privileges going on here :suspect:

How many hours have you ever flown where you have total control on where and why you go?
You may be surprised. However, I was always told to stay in the same country ;)


I've only been flying for 26 years Phil, so you have 4 years on me. As I have always done, I will respect the experience of others and listen to your contributions. Every day is a learning day.

[Fly_For_Fun]

JAFO, can I join your class, I may be missing a trick here? :ok:

[handysnaks]

Traffic police and ASU have been drawn in to this game that bored kids on council estates play.
I doubt there is any police pilot on here that has not been involved in a stolen car chase with youngsters on council estates.

Phil, I try not to get involved in countering differences of opinion that I am unlikely to change. However, I would like to correct you on the above statement. If you had made that statement 10 to 15 years ago you would be absolutely correct.

Today (and for about the last 5 years in particular), you are absolutely wrong. 'Joyriding' has almost completely tailed off in this neck of the woods. We do get involved in a small way with 'boy racers', who tend to drive their own cars. But just about all of our 'pursuits' (and there are far fewer of those these days), involve serious criminals.

handy

[Fly_For_Fun]

Handy, it is a very interesting point about the curtailment of pursuits. Do you have any statistics that give the number of pursuits on, lets say a 6 monthly basis for the past 10 years. It would be interesting to compare.

[SilsoeSid]

Try flying a single engine aircraft VFR from Wales to Jersey at night ...

I can tell you that there is a great deal of risk for a fixed wing pilot flying across the water to Jersey. As for workload try hand flying an instrument approach in a Piper PA32 with a 20 knot crosswind in poor vis in to Jersey at night and a u/s autopilot

Come on Phil, spill the beans. What have you been up to?

3 letters beginning with...

#1 - 'A' for Air


#2...'N' for .....?

[props stopped]

As this is the police budget cut thread, I thought I'd add the latest cost predictions as given by Clevelands Chief. I have added more to the Cleveland goes it alone thread.

http://www.clevelandpa.org.uk/admin/uploads/attachment/16_February_2011-Item%205%20-%20National%20Air%20Support%20Service%20Update.pdf


quote "At present it is still believed that by joining the National Air Service, we would be paying £535,000 more than our present budget, for the first 4 or 5 years, and then £300,000 more than our present budget after that. It is also still the intention that we would operate only 20 hours per day, with cover from other forces in the North East. "

North Yorkshire's chief Mr Maxwell is planning lots of work for 2012 for G-CPAS, and has a superintendant already plotting areas of great interest in his county. He's not daft, as he knows it will be all free of charge to his force :O
North Yorkshire is the largest English county which currently has to pay for neighbouring asu's when required, as the force doesnt have its own helicopter, and sometimes uses the voluntary Skywatch service.

[B.U.D.G.I.E]

Sorry Budgie but I do not agree with police traffic cars or helicopters chasing stolen cars.

So what do you suggest happens then. We just let them get on with it :ugh::ugh: So they nick more cars, drive with out insurance at which point they drive into you. Or god forbid they collide with a child and they die. Thats ok then is it. Lets have a lawless society that would be much cheaper for the tax payer.
So you can spend the extra money you have in your pocket on the extra car insurance because car crime has gone through the roof, on extra house insurance because dwelling burglaries have gone up to get the keys to your car, or you'll jut get mugged because thats ok, you'll be ok getting involved in the crossfire of gang shootings because it has nothing to do with crime or drug sales. :D do you have any more pearls of wisdom. (quick search through your dvd collection of police camera action,motorway cops,the bill) Wakey wakey:ugh:

[jayteeto]

They do steal high value cars in Kirkby, or at least INTO Kirby. My next door neighbour had a lad sneak into the house while he was in the living room and steal his keys. It was a sporty car and was found a week later, in Kirkby on false plates. These people are not scallies, they are full-time professional thieves who gun the cars and NEVER give up until they are 'stung' or crash. They deal drugs, burgle, ramraid and are generally 3-man crimewave teams. Why the hell should we not try to stop them? The day that you say we should 'not do' x/y/z is the day to give up and allow any crime to go unpunished. Granted this costs money, but you lose if you ignore crime. Sorry Phil, but your solution is wrong; I know you believe in it, but it is wrong.

[Mr_G_Box]

In the 202 Sqn they used to joke about "where do chopper pilots go when they fail....Middle Wallop"

I assume that's the same Middle Wallop where they train Army pilots to fly Apache, which of course is a mighty simple weapon system to operate!!!

[lynx no more]

Dishforth would make a fine central NPAS base. I'll be there at the front of the line Mr Npas sir.
A few idea's.

1. Let the pilots sit on the panel choosing all the obs, not allow any fine speaches from the prospective chaps on why they should be an obs, just take them for a quick flight and give them a map to find 3 points. If they dont make the grade there and then, show them the door, and tell them from the outset that the pilot is always right, and things will go swimingly :E

2. Line checks should be given 4 times a year in claggy weather by each pilot so the obs toe the line and make the tea, and to make sure they are always on the ball.

3. BTP asu central command should move them all around the UK to make sure they get to know the UK area so no favouritism is shown to home force areas :O

4. We had to do it in the military, so start as you mean to go on I say. Start with a clean slate, and ban all overtime, as the pilots cant get it so why should the chaps, its a well abused system from what I've seen over the years.

5. Single crewed is also another fine idea I've seen mentioned on this thread. If the chaps cant hack it in the back there is always footbeat which they were all trained for ;)

One stands back, and waits for all the agreed passengers who are not busy shining their boots to let me know the error of my recruitment and testing ideas.

Onwards and upwards I say Mr Npas. I bet a few drivers agree but darent say it to the obs sat next to them telling them what to do ;)

[Fortyodd2]

"He's not daft, as he knows it will be all free of charge to his force"

Props, you really are out of the loop on this. Under NPAS, all, repeat all forces will be top sliced including N.Yorks, Lincs, Cumbria and Kent.

[J.A.F.O.]

Lynx - Thank you for your suggestions, most illuminating.

[B.U.D.G.I.E]

Lynx I bet your really popular at your unit.....:ok:

[zorab64]

Oh Dear! Having watched all the drivel from PPL Phil, and given it a quiet ignoring to allow others to shoot him down, it's saddening to see Lynx chop in with such (theoretiaclly) professional claptrap. However much you may be trying to wind up the baggage compartment, any old-school Army attitudes surfacing like that at our unit would have you on a CRM refresher p.d.q.

Whilst Pilots views may be under-represented at your Obs selection process, with attitudes like yours, I can understand why. Professional Pilots with appropriate managerial (rather than confrontational) skillls have managed to get their views taken into account by the official (Police) management - and it works much better than it used to before we did! :ok:

[therealpieboy]

Well dais Zorab. Hammer strikes nail perfectly.

Maybe Phil has hijacked Lynxs posting?

I for one would love to make tea for Lynx that is if he trust me alone in the kitchen with his cup for two minutes!,,:ok:

[lynx no more]

CRM ah yes that old chestnut, do as your told by the back seat drivers and you wont go far wrong! Its a shame they cant fly it themselves and all the pilots would be out on their ears, but I've met a few who say they can fly larger a/c on their PS2's :}

Its amazing what happens when someone with pips on their shoulders arrives though the door, yes sir, no sir three bags full sir, then its back to the bolshy attitude.
Always make my own tea thank you, as others have said before, its a trust thing.

Was sick of reading the anti phil bashing brigade, it was his personal opinion, let him have his say, others do and we may not agree with it at the time.

NPAS is the best thing to come about in the UK's police avaition world and they should apply it to purchasing cars and vans as well. Less force fleet managers all on £50k+ pa and give one person the job to buy for all forces. Most are ex cops topping up their pensions anyway.

Finally, let me add that I do believe air support is needed in the UK, but it needs to be a NATIONAL setup so any officer in the country can call on it when needed and not limited by force boundaries. How many times have you all sat there (pilots) waiting for someone in supervision from another force wanting a search completed to authorise it!

I've added this video to help raise a smile or 2. Its police related of course, I wonder if they will arm the pilots with tasers one day (crm tasers) :E


uOVku86WfVg

[lynx no more]

This will be me tonight when I walk through the door no doubt.
Wait till the guy returns to the court room and you'll get the idea :O
Look for the gag, but will they tazer each other?


DMEqcUIZlSw&NR=1

[therealpieboy]

Love the gag. All pilots should be fitted with them!!:eek:

Lights blue touch paper and retires to a safe distance!

[SilsoeSid]

Lynx;
How many times have you all sat there (pilots) waiting for someone in supervision from another force wanting a search completed to authorise it!
Personally, never!
It is usually us that asks about other methods and for POLSA advice before we deploy, both in and out of our force area.

You'd be surprised how far down the line some regions were before this all kicked off. Yes this is a good thing, done the right way.


CRM ah yes that old chestnut, do as your told by the back seat drivers and you wont go far wrong!
If we didn't do what they said, we would end up at the wrong place and somewhere where there is no job to do.

Mr Lynx, you seem to echo Phil when he says that commercial pilots aren't worthy and only do what they are told and don't fly when and where they like, as he does. Ever wonder why he goes solo? :p

[Digital flight deck]

With only 1 month to go before NPAS start date, are there any updates as to what the plans/time lines may be? It seems to have gone a bit quiet with regard to the objections some forces seem to have.

[20Minuter]

It starts in April 2012. :ok:

[jayteeto]

I think you will find some places are planning to start in one months time :ok:

[Digital flight deck]

I read in Rotorhub that they [NPAS] will have the structure in place by the end of March 2012, so was wondering when, where and who will start the ball rolling.

[jayteeto]

Digital Flight Deck gives the info, it is meant to be in place by 2012. I know even less than nothing about what is happening, however I do know that pilots are sending out CVs, trying to find employment ASAP. Maybe I should have written 'very soon' instead of one month.

[Coconutty]

.... it is meant to be in place by 2012 ....

It is also meant to be ".... an enhanced service .... that will save £15 million a year.

Doesn't mean it will happen though :rolleyes:

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[lynx no more]

I've added a question on the "Cleveland go it alone" thread which was asked by another poster, but as some may not be interested in whats happening up at Clevelands Sleeepy Hollow base I'll ask the same question here.

Does anyone know the current cost of the police role equipment which is added to the new EC135's without the government grants.

[zorab64]

It's not really the cost of equipment that is relevant, it's the cost of fitting the aircraft out, as well as appropriate paint/ approvals / testing etc.
In any case, if you budgeted somewhere around the £1m mark for turning an ex-ECD factory machine into a Police role-equipped one, certified for the UK, you'd probably not be far off the mark.

Happy to be corrected by anyone who has more accurate figures, but it's not an easy one to calculate - as each aircraft built for the UK Police market will have been completed to a certain basic standard (& price) when it leaves the factory, allowing for the fact that more work will be done on it anyway, before it goes operational. You'd probably pay more than the basic for an ex-ECD machine that was ready to fly commercially on the day it left the factory. :ok:

[Brilliant Stuff]

All depends which camera you go for.
One system costs £850k another.
Two come in at £450k-£500k plus fitting.

[volrider]

Well this is a bit off thread but as we are talking cuts here then the police air observers and police staff will find the below of interest..


Tom Winsor's review is now out and its a long read
http://review.police.uk/documents/police-remun-and-conditions/first-report?view=Binary

In short there will be cuts to finances for the police officer some not as bad as feared some a bit hard to understand the logic of...
Some which will be so hard to implement by HR that I can see huge cock ups if their present standard to go by is anything to go by...
In short
CRTP or as the Daily Meal likes to call it "grab a grand" (odd as we didnt want it as part of a pay deal in the first place, we just wanted a payrise)
Goes from August 2011

A shift allowance of 10% for every hour worked after 8pm and before 6am will be paid (if you work 24/7 rota its the same as CRTP less a few quid)

No priority payments unless your firearms public order level 2 or a neighbourhood officer ( not that there will be many of them once the reduction in officers/staff takes hold)

Overtime payments cut.

But the good news is if your a pregnant woman you get extra weeks off with full pay..... I may complain to the human rights on that one, as I am being discriminated for lacking a womb:E

Good news for the biscuit munchers at the top they keep their pay as its a worry when you have to shop at cheaper shops for your Bourbons:ok:

Things of interest

Police constables, sergeants, inspectors and chief inspectors
should receive an additional 10% of their basic pay, on an hourly basis, for hours
worked between 8:00pm and 6:00am (non-pensionable)


Recommendation 20 – Police officers and all members of police staff below the top
of their pay scale should be suspended at that increment for a two-year period
commencing September 2011


Recommendation 21 — The current systems of performance-related pay should be
suspended until September 2013


Recommendation 29 – Competence Related Threshold Payments should be abolished
from 31 August 2011


Recommendation 33 – Special Priority Payments should be abolished from 31 August
2011 and all outstanding

But its not all bad news, well not if your a big Chief


Recommendation 37 – Police Authorities should be required to pay all reasonable costs
arising from the sale and purchase of a chief officer’s house, and should pay all tax
liabilities arising from any relocation package




Force – England and Wales (other than London) CC Salary
(2010)

West Midlands, Greater Manchester £181, 455
West Yorkshire £169, 359
Thames Valley £160,290
Merseyside, Northumbria £157,260



Recommendation 23 – There should be no changes to the present basic pay arrangements
for Chief Constables and Deputy Chief Constables

Looking at the above pay I was worrying how they would have had to cope....


Recommendation 58 – As quickly as possible, police forces should be provided with
the ability to offer voluntary exit terms to police offi cers, substantially on the terms
contained in the Civil Service Compensation Scheme 2010

Enforced redundancies are on the way..... part two of the report comes out in September...
Now we have the pension cuts to look forward to Thursday, what with NPA paycuts and then pensions its all good news... But we will carry on regardless as we always have done........upto now;)

[SilsoeSid]

Well I hope things don't go down the route of having serviceable aircraft on the ground purely because crews aren't available due to overtime not being paid out when the necessity arises. :=


Listening to London Information and other ATCs on Sunday night, we had the Wattisham cab going off to Cambridge, West Mids off to the Welsh Border and East Mids on a job in Coventry, all at the same time. (Probably out of range/different frequency for other happenings elsewhere in the UK.)

Has 'The Plan' started early?
Are BTP co-ordinating things already?

If not, how on Earth did that get sorted :rolleyes:

Personally, with 44 hours last month and the last load of shifts seeing 5 hours a day for both individual sets of crews, bring it on!



p.s. Can I have some NVGs please :ok:

[volrider]

p.s. Can I have some NVGs please

Well if its asking time...with the extra long flights expected under NPA
I want an onboard loo:E

[Eurocopper]

"In any case, if you budgeted somewhere around the £1m mark for turning an ex-ECD factory machine into a Police role-equipped one, certified for the UK, you'd probably not be far off the mark."

More like £1m PLUS another $1m for the FLIR = total circa £1.6m plus a/c

[SilsoeSid]

I want an onboard loo :E

A funnel and a piece of hose pipe will be all that's within the budget I'm afraid young fella me lad, and you'll be grateful for it. Otherwise we'd have (insert one of many names) complaining about the fuel wasted by landing while you have a hot defuel :ok:

[REGLER]

Back in 1995, I recall that police helicopters had to police observers and a civvie pilot. Today each police helicopter has two police observers and a civvie pilot..... and a load more highly integrated equipment.

It prompts the question whether some effort should have been expended on reducing the crew by one police observer and using the technology to better effect. I'm not suggesting that you would never take two observers in a one observer configured aircraft but that this might be the exception rather than rule.

If you look at equivalent or near equivalent aircrew tasks in the military World you will find some hugely complex tasks flown in single seat or dual crewed aircraft in areas where frankly I'd rather not fly.

The impact on unit costs would be significant but one might need to except that mission efficiency would dip as crews and aircraft adapted to this high tempo crewing regime.

[J.A.F.O.]

Regler

There are some tasks which, with the modern kit, could be done with one pilot and one observer but few that could be done as well as they are now and some which just couldn't be done at all.

[Coconutty]

Regler,

Aah - but in the military the pilot can have a finger on the trigger, so to speak,
whereas, AFAIK, the CAA governed "civvy" pilot you refer to
is not allowed to operate the "Police" role equipment at the same time as flying.

Some tasks probably could be conducted by just one Observer - routine aerial photo;s for Court etc,
and there might be a business case within NPAS to do just that,
but the Immediate deployment / "Hot" tasking type of job has a much higher workload,
and will probably need both Observers ( and the pilot ! ) to get the job done :ok:

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[zorab64]

Regler - I think you'll find that the single Obs discussion has been held many times, probably on this thread too, although I've not got the time to look into it!

There's a huge difference between initial selection, and subsequent training, of Military vs Police aviation. Whilst a good Obs may be able to manage the job single handed, there aren't a lot, IMHO, who could effectively run 3-4 police radios, at night, whilst working the camera, and map, without breaking into a very serious sweat, in a demanding ATC environment (cos they benefit from listening in to that too) - all as intimated by Coconutty. A little bit of resilience in staffing, sharing experiences/skills etc between Obs, makes for a much calmer and, in the end, more efficient & effective operation, despite the extra cost. If you've got an expensive asset, not manning it adequately would be a little irresponsible, I'd suggest.

And before the converstion turns to keeping costs down by employing civvie Obs, that discussion HAS been done to death on many occasions :ugh: - let's not start it again but, instead, search the threads to see many views, including mine! :ok:

[Flyingmac]

As a change from being plagued by the Cleveland police jollies I've just been treated to the wanderings of what appeared to be a 407 in camouflage paint. 2nd time in three days. Any info would be welcome.

[SilsoeSid]

If you've got an expensive asset, not manning it adequately would be a little irresponsible, I'd suggest.

And here the overtime issue introduces itself.

Back to thread, how will the NPAS system cope with the last minute sickie, maternity leave, courses, conferences, etc? Along with the pool of aircraft, floater pilots and engineers, will there be a pool of observers?

Strange that for the sake of an evenings £20 overtime payout, it would be acceptable to fly the extra £000's in order for another aircraft to cover areas due to insufficient manning ;)

[Nail The Dream]

This is "interesting" ....

G-INFO registration / new ownership details for G-NWPS

What's that all about ? - Just 2 days ago ?

Some fiendish plan to stop NPAS snaffling their chopper ? :suspect:

[lynx no more]

Thanks for the info on costs of police role equipment to the folk who replied, it was around the million I thought especially with radios etc :ok:

Re the discussion on single crew ops, I've done it on many a night shift, and it depends on the pc if he wants you to monitor or answer a radio for him/her. Some are ok others are its my toy type of thing!
Its Not hard to monitor even with 2/3 radios and atc. You simply trun down the radio you dont want to hear so much. In these days of gps the maps are only backup and its far from rocket science. Some obs like to make it sound hard but its not. The area becomes very familiar when you've done it for a few months without the maps.

Usually on scene even on a pursuit its all controlled by one radio possibly 2 especially in the post airwave era. It just means you start using selective hearing and using the volumes on the box.

I think you would find reducing the crew to one observer would not affect anything mission wise, except the weight and then you could then carry more fuel.
Having carried out pursuits etc single crewed, it was never a problem.

Its only a problem to some that are not really upto speed on the kit or the area from where I've been sat. Not a dig there by the way.

I would also stop any police attachments from having free jollies in the a/c, they should just hand out a video of what can be done by the a/c, searches etc. A good aid to this would be a card to say how to identify themselves and not try to say east or west from there position as most wouldnt know at a scene. Teaching them at a station about how to put a good containment on a scene would be far better than a free flight. Some come back for more free flights!

If you had inhouse training test sessions for the observers on return flights to test them every month instead of the yearly line check, I think you would find anyone wanting to stay on the unit would make sure they were upto speed to go it alone if it ever came about.

It would also save a lot of money, as I think most 5yr+ (service) cops who are generally observers are all on the same money as the pilot these days, and thats not counting the massive overtime payments they get with the extra days off in lieu etc.

If NPAS did contract pilotage out they would probably get better rates from the people like PAS who usually charge double what the pilot gets a year if it was a national setup. You need your floaters etc but that wouldnt add too much in the general run of things, certainly not double what a pilot earns currently.

Just a few thoughts and dont think I've tread on anyones toes this time around ;)

I'm still making my own tea by the way :E

[Coconutty]

I'm still making my own tea by the way

Really ? :rolleyes:

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[tigerfish]

Thats their old machine, it went back to the owning bank a few months ago at the end of its lease. They then took delivery of their new one.

Perhaps the bank has sold it on!

Tigerfish

[Digital flight deck]

Lynx no more
dont think I've tread on anyones toes this time around
I think you may have. :hmm:

[SilsoeSid]

Mr LynxnoMore once again highlights the lack of understanding of the differences between a rural force and an urban force and as we are about to 'go national', gives some very silly points of view.

As for divi-ing up the radios and other police roles when single crewed, am I the only one that can see little cheesey holes lining up? Surely the Pilots role is just that, to pilot. Also, isn't it obvious that by virtue of the fact that LnM has to take over some of the radios, the job is too hard to do single crewed. Own goal there methinks.

Apart from the obvious wind-up by saying that modern technology makes the observers job easier, statements like "Having carried out pursuits etc single crewed, it was never a problem." show up this individuals blinkered look at a national picture.

I am aware that different units have different policies on how the aircraft will be used on a pursuit, from a fully crewed aircraft giving video downlink and evidence gathering with street level commentary and tactical deployment of ground officers and equipment, to a simple 'single crewed video capture for looking at afterwards' policy. Not to mention that some forces run the pursuit out of the port window.

To say that you can give the former, despite the technology on board, in a metropolitan area under a radar control service, single crewed is completely hatstand!

The day LnM gets called into busy controlled airspace at night on a pursuit for a different force, single crewed, and is unable to perform to the degree that the user force is used to, will be the day that he realises what a poor service he is giving to the people that need him.


The sunny days of going out on a job happily chewing on a length of hay and turning down the odd radio, are coming to a close :ok:

[zorab64]

Lynx - your posts seem to get more bizarre.

Your opinions of Obs abilities aside (already covered in previous post re CRM attitudes), your experience would appear to have been in a very small area with old aircraft & older kit? I'm afraid I'm presuming (from your posts) that you've not actually operated one of the newer machines, with current suite of equipment, for a Police Unit, for some while?

Many units today are working over multiple counties, listening to more than one county radio as well as primary & secondary working channels. To honestly expect anyone to "know the area" as you're suggesting (and if NPAS plans come to fruition, we'll be expected to operate in much larger & less familiar areas) would be unreasonable. To manage the camera; record evidence with continuity; provide a detailed commentary with road names etc for effective use of the teams on the ground; add in Nitesun; etc. etc. is not something that can be done sweat-free by even the most skilled Obs I've met - more importantly, it's a dis-service to the Police we're there to support.

And who's going to do all these return-flight-checks when single crewed??

I'm afraid as far as salaries go, you're also well behind the drag curve, but I haven't got the energy to go there. :ugh:

Just previewed my (interrupted) post to find SS's post with similar sentiments - with which I'd concur.

Do keep on making the tea. :ok:

[Digital flight deck]

Lynx no more.....told you so! :ugh:

[timex]

I now see why you should make your own tea!:ok::ok:

[MightyGem]

They then took delivery of their new one.
I think they've just sold that one as well.

[tigerfish]

Nope!

But might have gone to a leasing co, as before! Standard practise for some forces.

TG

[B.U.D.G.I.E]

I'm sure you can do a pursuit single crewed but what service are you actually giving other than just being there. I would suggest none....:ugh:

[Phil Space]

Mr LynxnoMore once again highlights the lack of understanding of the differences between a rural force and an urban force and as we are about to 'go national', gives some very silly points of view.

As for divi-ing up the radios and other police roles when single crewed, am I the only one that can see little cheesey holes lining up? Surely the Pilots role is just that, to pilot. Also, isn't it obvious that by virtue of the fact that LnM has to take over some of the radios, the job is too hard to do single crewed. Own goal there methinks.

Apart from the obvious wind-up by saying that modern technology makes the observers job easier, statements like "Having carried out pursuits etc single crewed, it was never a problem." show up this individuals blinkered look at a national picture.

I am aware that different units have different policies on how the aircraft will be used on a pursuit, from a fully crewed aircraft giving video downlink and evidence gathering with street level commentary and tactical deployment of ground officers and equipment, to a simple 'single crewed video capture for looking at afterwards' policy. Not to mention that some forces run the pursuit out of the port window.

To say that you can give the former, despite the technology on board, in a metropolitan area under a radar control service, single crewed is completely hatstand!

The day LnM gets called into busy controlled airspace at night on a pursuit for a different force, single crewed, and is unable to perform to the degree that the user force is used to, will be the day that he realises what a poor service he is giving to the people that need him.


The sunny days of going out on a job happily chewing on a length of hay and turning down the odd radio, are coming to a close

I think your problem Silsoe is you have never had to pay the bills.Two hours in your machine would wipe out your months pay:ok:

Single crewing is no big deal and certainly not for half the police air ops which
in the case of Cleveland involves dropping in to schools.I'd like to see a lot of non metro police ops back in simple helicopters.

As you have established I fly both helicopters and fixed wing funded from my own pocket.

I've been campaigning through my MP and a few others at Westminster to impose big cuts on the toys the police use. I and my fellow taxpayers are picking up big bills for expensive kit being used to chase yobbo's playing chase me most of the time.

As for multi tasking...try hand flying a Citation 1 on an ILS one dark winter evening with a very low base and vis and a strong crosswind.(Single crew private jet)

Or a Malibu jetprop. A lot of plank pilots fly twin engine single pilot ops over distances that would make your job look like a weekend jolley.

[J.A.F.O.]

Oh goody, Phil's back.

[SilsoeSid]

Phil,

Clearly I am not worthy of replying to your post, however I think deep down you would expect me to.

The thing is Phil, I pay as much as you, possibly more, into the big pot that pays for these aircraft, but the difference is that I actually get to see their worth to the public. I'm surprised that you aren't complaining about our current military pilots giving it some with some of the real big boys toys paid for with your money. Surely there are more peaceful and cheaper ways of doing that job. Even more pilots getting paid to pilot, heaven forbid!

Single crewing is a big deal and if you kept up with the times, you would realise that what is now a rural force, will soon be required to work in an urban environment. For that reason, these rural units couldn't be put into simple helicopters. :ugh:

Your comment about chasing yobbos playing chase me, continues the proof that you really haven't a clue about the role of a police helicopter.

As I said before, I don't want to go for a pi$$ing contest, but I'm sure many here remember the Chipmunk solo days..."Finals for slot 1, no 2, make that slot 4" or a LWNA letdown, used in anger, in a floppy!

A lot of plank pilots fly twin engine single pilot ops over distances that would make your job look like a weekend jolley.
Must be really difficult flying a long way in straight lines. :rolleyes:


The invite to visit us is still open.

[Aerodynamik]

Glad your back Phil, you're great entertainment. I'm amazed how much you know about police air ops, how easy single crewing is etc and have such strong views on the matter when I might be so bold as to assume that you have never been with 100 yds of a police helicopter. Oh yes, I forgot, you've seen Police, Camera, Action.

[MightyGem]

But might have gone to a leasing co, as before!
So, you own a helicopter, then decide to give it to a leasing company and pay to lease it back?

[SilsoeSid]

Oh Phil,

Next time you are in touch with your MP and 'others in Parliament', ask them to stop the Dept of the Environment investing hundreds of thousands into the British Motorsport industry.

SS

[airpolice]

Phil, why not get your new pals to make the courts lock the ****ers up for a lot longer?

That will make Sid's work a lot more worthwhile.

[Digital flight deck]

Phil might just have a point..................not really :rolleyes:
try hand flying a Citation 1 on an ILS one dark winter evening with a very low base and vis and a strong crosswind.(Single crew private jet) Or a Malibu jetprop.
I have tried the things he mentions, although not in Malibu, and to be honest it is a piece of cake. I can only deduce that he is is not good enough to be doing what Silsoe and the like do. Keep up with the good work chaps.

Phil, do you work for the East Anglia Daily Times?

[B.U.D.G.I.E]

Oh goody, Phil's back.

You beat me to it.

Welcome back phil where have you been, catching up on chopper coppers and police camera action. Which means your all geared up to give every one a piece of your experience. :oh:

[jayteeto]

Phil, I have an ATPL/IR Aeroplanes as well as helicopters. You don't know what you are talking about. Long distances are the same as short distances, the only difference is the time involved. In fact you have more time to prepare for the approach on a long distance flight. So do crosswinds not affect helicopters on an ILS? Of course they do and you have to be able to hand fly it as well. Look in the mirror at the person who writes your posts, read them again, and again. Conclude that you are bitter, twisted and factually incorrect. In my 6 years on Merseyside ASU, I was involved in many pursuits, not a single one involved a 'chase me'. Most involved criminals who were desperate to get away and had carried out some nasty crimes.

[Eurocopper]

Sale & leaseback could make a lot of sense if your helicopter might be appropriated by another party with what you might consider to be inadequate compensation in a year or two.

[SilsoeSid]

While we wait for Phil (McCavity) to give us the next round of his observations, can I take us back to his first post with us;

Surely this cannot be the SilsoeSid that was having a go at the 'Round the World' gyro attempt a few years back because there was some free flying involved via sponsorship?

Can I point out to him that the person involved was on a full Warrant Officers wage along with higher rate flying pay, while doing this expedition. Also the many support staff, again some 'with rank' and on higher rates of flying pay, were using offices and hangarage on an active military airfield, during normal working hours... gratis.

I wonder if he (Phil) finds this sort of thing a good use of taxpayers money. Yes the expedition was sponsored, wages, accommodation, services etc were not. ;)

If Phil (waste of) Space had any cojones, I'd like him to go onto the military thread and argue the existence of the Red Arrows.
But then again Pigs might fly.....Oh yes, they do and get paid for it, which is what Pile is so envious of in the first place :ok:

[zorab64]

Thanks SS, although we know from other threads that Phil (in the) space doesn't approve of levity. Couldn't resist, I'm afraid . . . Pile
To find out what grade of piles you may have, take a quick Piles Quiz (http://www.allaboutpph.co.uk/WhatArePiles/Pages/Piles%20Quiz.aspx) - although I'm not sure what the treatment might be to stop this recurrent pain in the a*se?! :eek:

[Coconutty]

Zorab,

Well done :D - I think you have identified the problem -
It is indeed due to Haemorrhoids - Grade 2 to 4 it would seem :\

One of the common causes of Haemorrhoids ( according to your excellent Piles Quiz link ) is prolonged diarrhoea.

He's certainly spouted enough $**t across various forums recently to have demonstrated this affliction !

There are a number of treatments available, and the best option would appear to be
"Haemorrhoidal Artery Ligation Operation" also known as "HALO".

The procedure involves the use of an Ultrasound device - and Phil - you know where you can shove it :E

Please don't confuse the treatment with the alternative form of HALO - as this will probably make the condition even worse. :uhoh:

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[timex]

Nothing, Ops normal.

[Coconutty]

Interesting that it's not just the Acquisition of Pilot Services Framework that expires at the end of this month, (No extension on the register) but that the contract for "Consultancy Support for National Police Air Support Strategy" - (which was been extended by 1 year from 31/03/10) also runs out on the same date.

Just a day before 1/4/11 when ( according to some ) the NPAS roll out will commence - Yeah Right - Of course it will :rolleyes:

No expert HO Aviation Adviser for a while now since OD moved on, and now potentially no Pilot Services Framework, No Consultancy Support, no Cleveland ASU, and who knows how many other units considering whether to opt out of NPAS :uhoh:

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[SilsoeSid]

Opt out! Hush your mouth Coconutty, that's 'conchy talk'

Weren't we told earlier that opting out wasn't an option, as decreed by the mighty fist of the Home Secretary?

SOUTH Yorkshire’s Chief Constable has expressed his frustration that his force does not yet know whether it is to retain its helicopter.
Chf Con Hughes said: “We have not yet resolved our air support issues. I am finding it frustrating that we can’t immediately reassure the people of South Yorkshire that they are going to get an effective air support unit.

“While some people think a helicopter is a luxury, most people understand a helicopter provides a really good life-saving service for the people of South Yorkshire.


What I like is;
NPAS Chf Con Alex Marshall said: “While the current service is capable of doing its day job, artificial boundaries have meant that helicopters are restricted to operating within their own force area.

“A national, borderless service will ensure effective coverage of urban and rural areas.“

If that's what NPAS think is going on presently, why do I seem to constantly find myself out of the force area at 4am where its very dark. With the NPAS opinion, I should always be over lit areas...but that simply isn't the case.
A listen out on London Info might give an idea of what's really going on out there around the country. But if you're not up at these times of the day, you'll not be aware!

'Capable of doing it's day job', quite an insulting phrase to use IMHO!

[lynx no more]

Just a thought, as there have already been various meetings about the olympics etc, and who will be covering the events from the air.

What happens back in the home force area?

Are the various military SAR bases such as Boulmer and Leconfield covering for misper searches etc, as they dont cost the police forces anything to call in while the force helicopter is away watching the Olympic crowds?

Just curious?

Keep up the good work everyone :ok: :E

[SilsoeSid]

I would imagine the Skycopter would be doing most of the 'coverage from the air'.
:ok:


Do you really forsee a big requirement for air support? Besides, surely the various forces would cover the events happening around their areas?



One minute slagging us all off, the next, "Keep up the good work everyone".
Never seen a Lynx jock digging a trench, but nice to see that you learnt, 'When in a hole, stop digging'.

[Digital flight deck]

Perhaps the Met need extra coverage, they don't have enough helicopters now do they?

[lynx no more]

Aye, enough of the gardening (digging) Silsey.

I wonder if the UK units including Sleepy Hollow will add music to their pursuits after seeing this ;)

Outstanding T-PAC tactics.

YouTube - Orange County Police Car Chase - Benny Hill Themed

[SilsoeSid]

And here's me thinking this thread was about UK Police Helicopters !
:rolleyes:

[SilsoeSid]

Silsoesid lighten up! Blimey, before we know it you'll be denying the Global Eagle thread your chum Phil referred to earlier, never existed.

Here's another Police related video, I think it's about how we will be treated later!

YouTube - The Police-Canary in a Coalmine

[Coconutty]

Gone a bit quiet in here :rolleyes:

Thinking ahead to when the NPAS National Control Room kicks in, and spurred on by a conversation with a charming young lady
in the BTP London Control Room, that I was party to today, I started wondering whether everyone will need additional training
to understand some of the jargon used in their neck of the woods, ready for when they start despatching the National fleet :

" .......Control to AIR 99 :
If it’s not too Mork & Mindy, and the David Gowers aren't too heavy,
Can you take a Butcher’s Hook on the A38 –
Report that a Saucepan Lid has had a few too many Nelson Mandelas
in the Battle Cruiser and has Half Inched a Danny Marr.
He’s driving the Pete Tong direction down a one way Plate of Meat,
and being followed by an FTPU ( Frog & Toad Policing Unit ) Jam Jar.
Get your Aris out there PDQ - and let us know when you have Mince Pies on."



http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[Digital flight deck]

Would you Adam and Eve it?

[Wagging Finger]

" .......Control to AIR 99 :
If it’s not too Mork & Mindy, and the David Gowers aren't too heavy,
Can you take a Butcher’s Hook on the A38 –
Report that a Saucepan Lid has had a few too many Nelson Mandelas
in the Battle Cruiser and has Half Inched a Danny Marr.
He’s driving the Pete Tong direction down a one way Plate of Meat,
and being followed by an FTPU ( Frog & Toad Policing Unit ) Jam Jar.
Get your Aris out there PDQ - and let us know when you have Mince Pies on."

Can someone please decipher this for the Norverners amongst us, we speak proper English up 'ere tha nos.:ok:

[standby standby]

I noticed that the thread was slowing a little and apart from 'PHIL' there isn't much going on. So I thought I'd have a look on Face-book (fb) and twit-ter. It appears a number of forces are now 'Tweeting' as to what their aircraft have been up to on a daily basis, to add to that it is understood that some forces are actively encouraging officers and units to have Face-book pages.

So I had a look on fb, 9 people 'like' NPIA on fb but nothing on NPAS.

On twit-ter, NPIA have been slapping themselves on the back since 5th Jan this year but nothing for NPAS.

Whether we like it or not it appears to be the future with great buzz words like 'transparency' 'openess' and 'Needs, Fears and expectations' :ugh:

Maybe NPAS need a fb home page and we could all see what is going on and comment in an open forum or we can hide in the shadows and poke it with a stick. NPAS could use it to keep us and the population in the picture. Hey its just a thought, I'm sure you all have your own opinions.......

Whatever happens, in the future, someone will be busy 'tweetbooking' what we've been up to!

(Had to do Face-book and twit-ter like that as it came up as facepprune!)

[lynx no more]

Night training 135 hard landing. Cabin stood up well, I wonder how the driver and passengers backs coped with the collapsing seats inside?

I know most uk police forces dont insure their road vehicles with any companies and cover the various accident costs inhouse, but do with their a/c.

This might be an expensive inhouse police repair bill for the Czech police.

Czech Police EC135 damaged in night training flight | Helihub - the Helicopter Industry Data Source (http://www.helihub.com/2011/03/09/czech-police-ec135-damaged-in-night-training-flight/)

[B.U.D.G.I.E]

I know most uk police forces dont insure their road vehicles with any companies and cover the various accident costs inhouse, but do with their a/c.


are you related to phil. Another muppet who ain't got a clue what he's going on about. Thought this thread was going to be ok now space cadet has gone.


I think thats testament to the 135 the cab is in perfect condition :ok:

I wonder how the driver and passengers backs coped with the collapsing seats inside?

fine I guess as thats what they are designed to do :D

[B.U.D.G.I.E]

this looks interesting, could this be heading for a skyquest competition :ok:

A&CS receives order for airborne mission computer from Metropolitan Police (http://www.helihub.com/2011/03/14/acs-receives-order-for-airborne-mission-computer-from-metropolitan-police)

AC&S Ltd, an aerospace consulting and services company based in the north west of England have received an order from the Metropolitan Police for a number of mission computer and symbol generators for use in their EC145 helicopters.

The Mission Computer and Symbol Generator (MCSG) is an extensible mini PC for use in non-essential airborne operations. It works with Microsoft Windows® embedded Operating Systems and may have optional applications such as image processing software for airborne or similar missions added to it.

The MCSG was developed to address the demand for integrating existing typical aircraft systems which traditionally are installed as separately switched systems which do not integrate.

It is capable of integrating with numerous existing product systems such as GPS or camera feeds, and acts to integrate these systems to expand their abilities and increase utilisation.

The MCSG is no ordinary ruggedized unit. It has been especially developed for mission systems both in Rotary and Fixed Wing sectors.

The basic specification includes a fanless Solid State hard drive and Mil Spec connectors to address vibration and handling issues. It is currently DO160 tested for vibration, dust and shock. However, the MCSG also features user specified connectivity as requested by customers including RS232/422, multiple Mil Spec USB and PS/2 ports for connections to Keyboards, Tracker ball, Mouse, VDU, flash drives, etc.

[Fly_For_Fun]

Any truth in the rumour that longmint may have applied for the piloting contract for NPAS?

[lynx no more]

Ow budgie lad I only included what it said about local reports in the helihub article saying that they insured themselves!
I know the UK ASU a/c dont insure themselves.
Did you also notice that I did add that the cab stood up well to the impact?:ugh:
I asked about their backs as thats one thing most impacts affect, as with ejection seats!
I could go back and remove the bit about the cops not insuring their road vehicles to clear the matter up for you, but whats the point you'll find something else to wibble about. Muppet eh, thats good coming from Budgie the helicopter!

[Coconutty]

I know the UK ASU a/c dont insure themselves.

Huh ? ? ?

Don't understand that comment -
Are you saying that UK Police aircraft are not insured, or that they are insured by someone else :confused:

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[Art of flight]

All UK police aircraft are insured by third parties, such as Marsh Aviation Insurance amongst others. One of the many reasons ASU/AOUs are so expensive to run. I know many forces look after accident repair costs to their vehicle fleets in house , but of course are 'insured' for claims to non force vehicles and liabilities to other persons and their property.

[PANews]

It may be that all police aircraft in the UK are insured these days but there is no requirement for the police forces to insure through the commercial sector. That is why the Met Police were always more gung ho and did the job on the streets... they did not have insurance companies breathing down their necks.

Large forces like the Met have a history of not insuring, and the same happens across the world with large operators. The price of helicopters and other capital equipment may have changed the situation.

I am unsure where the Met are these days - individually the aircraft are expensive and a big slice of a budget if the craft are damaged - but there is ample evidence that earlier fleets were not insured. I assume that is why Lynx thought he was on good ground for saying that.

So, are they all now insured by Third parties?

[zorab64]

I think you'll find all Police Forces are so risk-averse that not to insure their aircraft, most specifically against third party damage, would see them cutting out Air Support completely, before any accidents occurred.

Whilst risk management may dictate two engines, dropping a helicopter into a congested area in the middle of the night, (Cardiff) without insurance, would be regarded as a foolish cost-cutting measure by the local taxpayer, who would have to foot the, not inconsiderable, bill. :=
I think you'll find that the same third party insurance is in place for other Police vehicles, it's just the damage to the Police cars themselves that won't be covered by insurance.

[B.U.D.G.I.E]

Muppet eh, thats good coming from Budgie the helicopter!

That made me laugh...:ok:

[lynx no more]

Thanks PAN thats What I was trying to point out. Glad thats been cleared up. Any news on NPAS? direct employment etc?
Keep smiling life's too short :ok:

[hc89]

To follow on my previous post earlier on, Heres some pics of the Ex police heli at EGKR

Didn't want to be nosing around with a big SLR so took some photos on my phone so they look a bit rubbish.

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m23/williambrodie/th_IMAG0861.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/albums/m23/williambrodie/?action=view&current=IMAG0861.jpg)

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m23/williambrodie/th_IMAG0871.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/albums/m23/williambrodie/?action=view&current=IMAG0871.jpg)

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m23/williambrodie/th_IMAG0872.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/albums/m23/williambrodie/?action=view&current=IMAG0872.jpg)

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m23/williambrodie/th_IMAG0869.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/albums/m23/williambrodie/?action=view&current=IMAG0869.jpg)

And the UH-1 next to it... As a R22 flyer, was shocked at the rotors! There have to be planes with smaller wings....

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m23/williambrodie/th_IMAG0816.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/albums/m23/williambrodie/?action=view&current=IMAG0816.jpg)

[PANews]

We are nearly at 365 days and counting......

A Face book item highlighted by Linked In took my notice this morning.

If you are a thread jumper you may recall the row between Cambridgeshire based 'free' medico group Magpas and East Anglia AA when they moved the [BK117] aircraft to Cambridge Airport, the EAAA CEO leaving, them buying engines to prop up the deal with Sterling... Sterling dropping off the radar... and taking the 117s with them so that EAAA are now in Bolkows....

Good idea for a TV script I hink.... but no-one would believe it....

Anyway despite the row Magpas still exist and fly in the Cambridgeshire MD902 Explorer. That, it is said, has just a year to survive.

And yet this last weekend that same craft and its Magpas medics was over in Norfolk undertaking two 'out of hours' emergency medical flights - the first to take a trained doctor to a burned child. He may subsequently have travelled by land ambulance to Addenbrookes but how else would a doctor from Cambridge get to Norfolk in time? The second was a fatal accident where the survivor was treated to stabilise him and accompany the injured to Addenbrooke’s Hospital, the regions specialist trauma centre.

Overall Magpas seem to be able to lick a finger and signify that they got 'one up' overall in the EAAA row but in a year this out of hours regional facility will go [and of course the police will lose their aircraft without replacemnent..]

OK so its one little element in the wider picture but downsizing overall seems to be just taken as what will happen regardless of the consequences.

It seems clear that there is no real pressure group built up within the pre-NPAS population to get the story out to push for more survivors in this massacre of officer safety equipment .... no pressures on the Police Federation to open their muted mouths in protest.... what a useless organisation that has always been..... and even the death rattle here in Rotorheads appears to be going no-where.

Very sad.:ugh:

[B.U.D.G.I.E]

It seems that yet again forces don't realise what there units can do for them. If you look at a couple of recent incidents in the press.

The taxi driver shooting. Where the police and paramedics got the blame for not attending quick enough. In a rural area like that it's going to take an age for the ARV crews to get to the scene. If they were co located at an air unit then fly officers in.

The bloke who drove his car into a river killing his daughter. Police had to stand and wait for a dive team to come from god knows where. Fly them in.

Cut down the time we have to wait for the specialist officers by using the fastest piece of kit the police have.:D

[MightyGem]

If they were co located at an air unit then fly officers in.
Not really practical, as most firearms teams are out on patrol, and especially in that situation when no one knew where he was. Even if he was seen in his car from the air, what could they do?

[Coconutty]

The bloke who drove his car into a river killing his daughter. Police had to stand and wait for a dive team to come from god knows where.AFAIK they ( divers ) came from Devon & Cornwall ???

They didn't have to wait long for Police Air Support on that job though,
who were on scene searching in case one of the occupants had managed to free themsleves,
and then been washed down river.

Such a task would have been extremely difficult from the ground, even using a boat !

( RIP )

Coconutty

[B.U.D.G.I.E]

Correct. But the issue raised on the news was that paramedics were not allowed to attend to the persons who had been shot. So each force has a team that can arm and be used to assist the officers. Whilst the ARV's are looking for the offender, the team can be flown to the scene of the shooting and protect the paramedics. That is one place we know he is not, but they just need protection in case he returned

[Coconutty]

We are nearly at 365 days and counting......

Yes we are ..... or 366 if you count Feb 29th :ok:


http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[B.U.D.G.I.E]

We are nearly at 365 days and counting......




until...................................:mad: all..................

[Fly_For_Fun]

[and of course the police will lose their aircraft without replacemnent..]

Although they will receive cover from the Suffolk ASU and Beds ASU.

[SilsoeSid]

Police at Newport Docks - Headline.org.uk (http://www.headline.org.uk/index.php?page=police-at-newport-do)

http://www.headline.org.uk/hw-uploads/images/helicopternd.jpg

Prime Minister Harold Wilson visited Newport Docks in 1967 to open a major new timber wharf. Some of the officers on duty stood in front of the ministerial helicopter for a photograph. Included in the picture, wearing a motorcycle helmet was motorcyclist Pc Percy Sharland. The local Divisional Commander, Superintendent William Voyle was not a man noted for his sense of humour but he smiled when he saw the photograph and sent it to the editor of the British Transport Police Journal at Force Headquarters with a note to the effect that the Docks Division were proud to announce that it had taken possession of a police helicopter and that Pc Sharland had been trained as its pilot. When the article was published it certainly came as news to the chief constable and it raised a few eyebrows until the truth came out when everyone could see the funny side of it.



'News to the Chief Constable', haven't we heard that before, once the wool has been pulled off?

So that's where the BTP idea came from. Oh! How we will all see the funny side of it once midday 1st April has passed.

[SilsoeSid]

Here's a question for the board, as the POLKA site seems to be thin on the ground for answers to questions that ask specifics;

If you had 7 aircraft for the whole of the UK. Where would you put them?

That should test the supply/demand circle theory.

http://http://www.forwardslashnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/Crime.jpg

Police Crime Map Proves Countryside Needs More Crime*|*ForwardSlash News (http://www.forwardslashnews.com/index.php/2011/02/police-crime-map-proves-countryside-needs-more-crime/)

Millions were shocked to learn today that most of the crime in the UK goes on in cities. This runs against common belief that criminals usually carry out their most heinous acts in the most remote areas such as in disused quarries, upon mountain tops and in HMV stores.

Scientists say that it should be no surprise as Einstein’s theory of criminality C=PP*C/100 (Crime = Population plus Poverty multiplied by Conservatives divided by one hundred) proves that higher concentrations of people lead to increased rates of crime, a situation which is exacerbated when Conservative governments are in power.

[Peter-RB]

On the same branch as "Police Cuts" ..Today I have travelled 560 odd miles on four major motorways in the UK today M6, M1 M62 M56, and not seen any Police vehicles, plenty of VOSA cruisers but not one Motorway Bobby, have they all been laid off along with the ASU guys.?

Peter R-B

[PANews]

It is endemic.

Years ago "the police" decided they did not like playing with yellow lines, did not like doing school crossings, did not like dealing with nice people as well as nasty people..... the numbers of jobs they did not like doing simply grew and grew and along came all these nominally cheaper wardens and local authority spies and enforcement officers..... they were hungrier and far more cost efficient ... in some cases even ex-cops well versed in doing the jobs ditched and more than capable in doing these often simple jobs.

And.... crikey..... it was not too long before the bosses realised that there was no need for cops.... they had given their job away for next to nothing... and indeed from personal experience it is the devils own job to get them to do the silly little jobs that used to make your local neighbourhood Bobby indispensible. It was ever so easy to do all these jobs... most took seconds but you could give the impression they took time and expertise by repitition ..... smoke and mirrors in extremis... and often a cup-of-tea to follow.

And that is part of the reason why there are few cops on the motorways .... and why if someone in an ASU near you doesn't buck their ideas up pretty soon the whole of NPAS will boil down to civilianisation. Cops internationally try to give the impression that cops are born to the job but I am sorry folks that line is running pretty thin ..... they are trained and even PCSOs can do the job efficiently IF THE DOOR IS LEFT OPEN.

[Epiphany]

The only time I seem to see Police Officers these days is either on TV in central London as they watch anarchists destroy the place or more commonly when they are pointing a radar gun at my car.

My family own a shop which has been broken into 3 times in the past month. It has an alarm which works very well but somehow the thieves are always long gone with the goods before the police ever show up.

And can anyone please explain to me how cutting the numbers of Police Officers will reduce costs when most of the budget seems to be spent on overtime - which is presumably needed because there aren't enough Police Officers to do the job during 'normal' hours?

[SilsoeSid]

On the same branch as "Police Cuts" ..Today I have travelled 560 odd miles on four major motorways in the UK today M6, M1 M62 M56, and not seen any Police vehicles, plenty of VOSA cruisers but not one Motorway Bobby, have they all been laid off along with the ASU guys.?

And if the motorways had a traffic car assigned to drive around all the time, there would be calls of boys toys, cruising, nothing better to do, slowing down the traffic, etc etc. Besides, what would you expect them to be doing?

By the way, ever noticed that Police cars on the motorway, not on a job, travel at 60mph or below to allow traffic to pass, whereas the VOSA cars travel at 70 mph, slowing the traffic flow as everyone thinks they are the police.

[SilsoeSid]

Too few officers spread too thinly.

Like Marmite, if you spread it thin enough, you'll not notice it on your toast.

http://blog.hpsgroup.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/toast.jpg

[Fly_For_Fun]

Silsoe, does this sound awfully familiar?

Home office "There will be no front line losses"
CC "We cant do this without front line losses"
Home office "There will be no front line losses"
CC "But we cant do this without front line losses"
etc, etc

OC "I want 3 aircraft on line"
Flt Sgt "We only have 2 aircraft in the squadron"
OC "I want 3 aircraft on line"
Flt Sgt "But we only have 2 aircraft in the squadron"
OC "I want 3 aircraft on line"
etc, etc

[Coconutty]

Or .....

'I'm a politician you can trust me.'

Or .....

An enhanced service with fewer aircraft that will save money ?

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[jayteeto]

And so it begins, the report mentions this summer.....

BBC News - Merseyside Police helicopter is scrapped (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-12925740)

The Merseyside Police helicopter is being scrapped under plans to pool police resources to save money.
Forces in Merseyside, Cheshire, Lancashire, Greater Manchester, Cumbria and North Wales have agreed to collaborate in five areas to cut costs.
Four helicopters using four air bases will cover the region from a central control room from this summer.
As a result, Merseyside's helicopter, which is the oldest in the fleet, and its air base will be decommissioned.
A Regional Air Support Unit will be created and operated from a centrally located control room.
The forces are also to work together by appointing a regional chief firearms coordinator, who will work on understanding firearms risk and establishing common ways of working for firearms officers.
There will also be an assessment of policing public order incidents, to see how forces can respond to threats on a regional basis, as well as record and share information.
There are plans to create regional training facilities for officers, and to work closer in some areas of forensic science.
Margaret Ollerenshaw, chairman of Cheshire Police Authority, said: "We are all facing the same financial pressures and in some areas of policing it makes sense for us to join together to share resources and make savings."

[Coconutty]

Didn't someone say that NPAS was commencing in some areas on 1st April THIS year ?
- albeit initially as some sort of Regional or Area coming togetherness ?

So how are you getting on ?

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[SilsoeSid]

Coconutty,

Tell us what you know, because some of us know, that you know, that we know, that you are in the know ;)

[Coconutty]

I know - "Nothing" !

I was just wondering, because some previous messages ( e.g. Post #1299 )
had hinted that some Units were going to start joining up in April this year,
and if true, I was interested to see how things were going ?

I don't personally know of anyone that has started doing so yet.

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[jayteeto]

Post 1299 was a sarcastic reply to someone saying it was going to be next year, I did state after that I knew nothing. Merseyside have announced to the press that they will be using only 4 of 5 aircraft by this summer in the north west.

[Lokon]

Haven't the Yorkshire lot been doing that sort of cover/close working thing for the last ten years or so, why re-invent the wheel?

As for the Police cars on motorways, have you not heard about unmarked cars!

[Ye Olde Pilot]

Stories such as this in todays Daily Mail do little to counter claims of police helicopters being deployed for very minor incidents.

Operation overkill: £20,000, eight police, one helicopter, two dog units and three patrol cars to trap pair who stole 47p of scrap
By LUKE SALKELD

It claims to have been hit hard by spending cuts, but one constabulary spared no expense in tackling the pilfering of scrap... worth 47p.
Alerted to two salvagers rummaging through a recycling centre, Gloucester Police sent a helicopter, two vans, three patrol cars and two dog units.
The crack squad managed to apprehend Owen Gray and Angela Cubitt, who had helped themselves to a games console and a power drill – with a combined scrap value of 47p.
The pair said they were told the operation, which involved eight officers, had cost £20,000.

The out-of-work computer engineer was fined £20 while Miss Cubitt, 34, was released without charge. The pair were arrested last month walking home from their visit to the unmanned Hempsted Household Recycling Centre in Gloucester.
The helicopter spotted them first and they were picked up by an officer with dogs at around 10pm.
The were held in a cell overnight before questioning the next day. Mr Gray was allowed to pay £20 to a charity through a scheme that allows officers to deal with small crimes without using the courts.

£20,000, eight police, one helicopter, two dog units and three patrol cars to trap two men who stole 47p of scrap | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1373833/20-000-police-helicopter-dog-units-patrol-cars-trap-men-stole-47p-scrap.html)

[Art of flight]

When you're presented with the with hindsight facts it seems laughable to waste time and money on situations like this. I've attended many 'jobs' like these, the problem is that these jobs never present themselves with that hindsight. I can image one scenario was '@@99 can you make your way to intruders on at abc, there's a dog running'.

Options would be to say no, ask questions for a couple of minutes, or get going and ask questions on the way.

In some ways we'll always be in the wrong, we exist therefore we'll always be called, therefore the path of least resistance (to the duty Inspector) is to go. Forces are looking hard at 'Risk management' and 'appropriate response' from supervisors in control rooms to curb spending, but old habits die hard. Air support is much like the on call fire watch., the control room details the job and you respond (leaving aside various local deployment criteria, budgetry pressures, shortage of hours to next service etc, etc....!)

Back on thread, it seems after the initial shock of the NPAS announcement, most units that will be staying (not in the geographical sense) are moving towards the new role at least in the way of forging stronger links with neighbouring forces to allow borderless operations.

Now standing back to allow strong comment:ouch:

[Ye Olde Pilot]

Was I was young the local bobby would have sorted most incidents like this on his own without the need to arrest the offender. The annoying thing about the police is that for most petty crime they are not interested. If the oil is stolen from your tank or the mower goes missing then all they want to do is create paperwork.
I resent the fact they send out forms for victim support in these cases.

Most public services from the binmen up are a mass of bureaucratic nonsense that costs a fortune for nothing achieved at the coal face.

[Phil Space]

Maybe Silsoe Sid or Coconutty flying one of their 'missions' over that recycling plant.

The birds are coming home to roost and a lot of Chiefs are going to find their wings are clipped.

The crazy use of police helicopters on 90% unproductive return will stop soon with the new operation.

Eric Pickles is watching.

Roll on the new regime.

[lynx no more]

NPAS recruits by any chance?

Cant see a driver in the pic, unless one is also a PPL of course :E

The story here
UK: South East Air Support Unit officially launched (http://www.helihub.com/2011/04/04/uk-south-east-air-support-unit-officially-launched/)

04-Apr-11 A collaboration to share air support across the counties of Sussex, Surrey and Hampshire was officially launched Friday at Shoreham Airport.
Although the South East Air Support Unit (SEASU) has been operational since October, today marked the start of operations under a single Police Air Operator’s Certificate issued by the Civil Aviation Authority.
Under the agreement there are two helicopters covering the three force areas. This will ensure that Sussex, Surrey and Hampshire are all able to have access to this highly value resource, but at a saving of around £8m for the three authorities over the next five years.
Regional Inspector for SEASU Steve Cheeseman said: “The launch of the regional air support unit has been seven years in the making and we have come up with a model which we believe will effectively serve Sussex, Surrey and Hampshire. One of the helicopters will be based in Sussex and one in Surrey but they will both provide cover for all three force areas.
“The use of helicopters gives police a real advantage over criminals on the ground and also allows us to effectively assist in searching for vulnerable missing people. They are an invaluable resource which through this collaboration we hope to continue for many years to come.”
Alan Price, Sussex Police Authority’s lead member for air support, said: “Collaboration in which ‘everybody has won and all must have prizes’ is always difficult to achieve. There must inevitably be compromises.
“The fact that all three Forces and authorities have been able to reach agreement on an effective and efficient collaboration with both capital and revenue implications which meets the requirements of all in the important area of air support is a tribute to all those involved in the discussions and negotiations that have lead up to this day.
“I offer my congratulations to all those who have worked hard to make this historic launch of SEASU happen today. I am sure SEASU will continue to develop to meet the changing demands on its service.”



http://www.helihub.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/110404-southeast1.jpg

[PANews]

Not only is the driver missing... the whole crew is adrift. Each of those in the image are 'persons with some standing in the community' - not the plebs that actually do the job day in day out.

So I expect that next year, give or take a month or so, we are to expect a similar line up at Dunsfold with just one EC135 aircraft and a shiny new hangar in the background. The event wwill be launched with a press release stating - straight faced - that the operation is now more effective, more efficient and catching twice as many crooks as the 2011 unit managed to capture in its entire existence.....

[Art of flight]

The question has to be asked - if it's such a great idea to save £8m over the next 5 years now, why didn't anyone in that picture think of doing it 5 years ago?

I've always found it prudent (as a pleb crew person) to withdraw from the scene as the cameras come out. No doubt the crews had more important things to do just as the photograph was being set up!

[Art of flight]

Quote

“I offer my congratulations to all those who have worked hard to make this historic launch of SEASU happen today. I am sure SEASU will continue to develop to meet the changing demands on its service.”

The near future would seem to "continue to develop" by downsizing by another aircraft?

You've guessed by now I'm a supporter of the NPAS idea, just dislike 'spin'.

[spannatime]

Is there any official news from NPAS which units are planned to be 20 hours and which will be 24/7?

[wright123]

Re Spannatime's question;
"Is there any official news from NPAS which units are planned to be 20 hours and which will be 24/7?"

Does NPAS have access to the daily logs from all the different units for the last couple of years?

If so I think they will be looking at who is busy in the early hours/mornings and who isn't.

Air support seems to come into its own at night I have found, but is relatively quiet after 2-3am, till about 4pm the next day. Not counting any photo requests during the day.

Strathclyde seem to make it work and they finish early. Maybe a visit to their unit by NPAS might be an idea to see how its done?

The cross border ops should help when the various units lose their a/c for a week or so for maintenance checks.

Things might change re hours flown come April. I know the large North Yorkshire force who havent havent got any air support except the volunteer flyers, are waiting to request I55 from Cleveland come D-Day, without worrying about who is going to pay at the time :ok:

[SilsoeSid]

I read this... Air support seems to come into its own at night I have found, but is relatively quiet after 2-3am, till about 4pm the next day.

...and thought, yep, that makes sense.

/
/
/
/

Then I realised it said pm !
:=

[Art of flight]

Guess there's some big regional differences!

a week or so for maintenance?

[PANews]

Art of Flight....
.... why didn't anyone in that picture think of doing it 5 years ago?

That may be easy..... now five years ago they were probably in University learning some skill not wholly associated with law enforcement and thief catching .... may even still had stripes on their arms.... 30 years passes so quickly that it makes 5 years a giant chunk.

In less than five years time they, and the planners of NPAS will be on the golf course....others will pick up the bits... dust them off and make them work.

[lynx no more]

Never mind the golf course I bet ACC Olivia would make an outstanding crew mate with a smile like that :E

I'd make her tea anyday ;)

[Wagging Finger]

In less than five years time they, and the planners of NPAS will be on the golf course

or running a website discussing the latest developments in Air Support:ooh:



:=

[B.U.D.G.I.E]

Look like a couple of hundred grands worth of saving in that photo alone.

There combined salary could run a unit for a year and it would lock up more people and save more lives than they would.

[wright123]

This should prove interesting viewing down at Sleepy Hollow.
The Chief COnstable Mr Price said on tv tonight that his latest internet venture would show exaclty what his helicopter was doing EACH day.

It should prove interesting viewing knowing how quiet the place is.
The "Price is right" chief goes on to say that it costs his force £960,000 per year to keep the a/c in the air??

It used to cost him £800k per year when he was part of the north east consortium, so he's not doing too bad having his own a/c for a bit more in the small county ;)
I noticed the chief didn't mention the purchase price of it in January :confused:

The excited TV interviewer states that it is the most advanced police helicopter in the world! I wonder who got a jolly around HQ?

http://www.itv.com/tynetees/heli-cam51727/

Tyne Tees Regional News | North East Tonight - ITV Local (http://www.itv.com/tynetees/)

and a bit in the local Gazette.

Cleveland Police launch Helicopter Watch - TS16 Local News - TS16 Eaglescliffe - Gazette Communities - Gazette Live (http://www.gazettelive.co.uk/gazette-communities/ts16-eaglescliffe-local-news-sport-blogs/ts16-eaglescliffe-local-news/2011/04/11/cleveland-police-launch-helicopter-watch-84229-28490708/?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter)

Nice badges ;)

[wright123]

Helicopter watch latest, notice how well its written up ;)
Helicopter Watch (http://www.cleveland.police.uk/news/helicopter-watch.aspx)

Even doing a search in North Yorkshire! NPAS time....

If all else fails tell the crim that you can't see him and you want him to come out of hiding :{

08/04/2011

22:30 Middlesbrough
Crime Search
Assist units chasing person responsible for theft through the old docks area. Male had jumped into river in attempt to escape. Area searched and confirmed to be clear. Crew found door open on an old ship, believed male was hiding inside. Land on at scene whilst suitable units attend to search the ship. Resume short time later, attempts made using aircrafts PA system to get male to come out with negative result.

and back for more shouting to see if he would come out a couple of hours later?

09/04/2011

00:20 Middlesbrough
Crime Search
Further tasking below incident at Riverside Middlesbrough. Thermal imaging of decks of disused ship whilst units made loud-hailer calls to any persons on the ship. No one forthcoming.
:rolleyes:

[Eurocopper]

Before people get too carried away with these supposedly "new" developments, it might be worth pointing out that other ASUs have provided borderless cover using two aircraft for up to five counties for the past FIFTEEN years.

[whoateallthepies]

We trained hard . . . but it seemed that every time we were beginning to form up into teams we would be reorganized. I was to learn later in life that we tend to meet any new situation by reorganizing; and a wonderful method it can be for creating the illusion of progress while producing confusion, inefficiency, and demoralization.

Petronius Arbiter, 210 B.C.

(I know, it's authenticity is disputed but still a good quote).
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/_6sDYRTvw520/TaVOAlq8kZI/AAAAAAAAAEs/5mDPSLMHHG8/s128/pie.jpg

[Coconutty]

using two aircraft for up to five counties for the past FIFTEEN years.... in my neck of the woods, ( although not sure exactly when they ALL came on board ),
Air Support has been provided by 4 aircraft covering 8 force areas for around 24 years !

I wonder if all the knowledge and expertise gained during that time
is at the forefront of some of the current decisions being made :hmm: :rolleyes: :ugh:

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[B.U.D.G.I.E]

OMG :eek:

I can't believe they have bee so stupid as to put so much info on the web about the flights they are doing and to make it worse it's an obvious cut and paste from the flight log which may well be needed as evidence if that job went to court. The comment "we viewed the area from 9km away" well that does not even warrant a comment. pathetic :mad::mad::mad::mad:

[PANews]

I wonder if all the knowledge and expertise gained during that time
is at the forefront of some of the current decisions being made

It is my understanding that the ultimate in NPAS planning questionaires is out there...... yes the new one .... and it includes a question that asks....

"...what do you do....?"

So what DID they ask before writing the plan?

[props stopped]

Trumpton can usually find a fire..... especially if its a large one!
Its the flying panda time :ugh:
Helicopter Watch (http://www.cleveland.police.uk/news/helicopter-watch.aspx)

14/04/2011
21:15
Stockton
Search
Helicopter deployed to a report of a large fire near Tesco’s Durham Road. Crew sighted fire and ground units and fire brigade talked on.


:confused:

[timex]

Yet you don't mention the good results?


Helicopter deployed to report of a possible drink driver who was considered a danger to the public. Vehicle located, ground units talked on and 1 male arrested.

Requested to assist units to search for a vulnerable female missing from hospital. Female located by Ground units after being talked onto another person in the same location by Helicopter.

[lynx no more]

I couldnt believe what I was reading on that daily cleveland smoggy log.
But, and its a big but, there are jobs, and there are jobs, and it just wouldnt happen down here in the sunny south.

"Guide trumpton onto a large fire"? Did the commentary go something like this?
" left a bit, right a bit, your getting warmer" :O

I've looked for hot spots and propane bottles with an onboard fireman before but never find a large fire for them?

Doesnt every force asu now comply with the national tasking requirement these days??

Well its a bit different to them attending small beach party raves which they like to attend I suppose :hmm:

A mate of mine once did a stint up there as relief from Macs when PAS ran out of drivers and had to contract in, and he told me about the little emperor Stumpy who was still the chief driver up at the last consortium, and it was a nightmare he said.

He wasnt the only one who refused to go back because of certain coppers and Stumpy's attitude up north. There was one pc kindly nicknamed "the Navigator" as he was totally useless with a map, who marched around like little Stumpy up in geordie land! They both liked giving out orders to all the pilots it seems! Most people I know stopped marching when they left HM forces for the civvy life ;)

My mate was only there for a short time while 135 drivers were being trained up, and reckons that Stumpy had given out one his infamous tall orders,
"All check A's were to be carried out on the windy airport stand, and not in the hangar" like up at Newcastle where Stumpy was! It was as he put it, to save on a/c response times!! Mate reckons the cx A fuel and panels were flying all over the shop, and he was covered in jetA1!!!

He did say it is very quiet up at Sleepy Hollow, so maybe the smoggy chaps are now trying to prove a point with the latest flying panda routine and odd daily logs?
Or are there cameras in the office watching them to stop all the sleeping? Its happened up in the northern geordie office I was told by another driver who also jumped ship. (fact)

As Budgie said, there are some things you just dont put down on a public log :\ but those 2 ship searches did make me chuckle, "come out, come out wherever you are" :p

Can't wait for the next episode of the new Sleepy Hollow daily log.
Is this the way the new NPAS system will be run by the BTP chaps I wonder :oh:

[Coconutty]

Doesnt every force asu now comply with the national tasking requirement these days??

Enlighten us - What IS the "National Tasking Requirement" ?

.... perhaps when ( if ? ) NPAS starts, that is when "every force" might start to comply with such a National requirement,
but until then I would imagine a lot of forces will continue to choose to deploy their aircraft the way they want to. :hmm:

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[Phil Space]

Which I guess is wasting our public funds on 99% pointless tasks that could be sorted by a Plod on a moped.

[Art of flight]

We certainly have deployment criteria, agreed at a regional level and modified at individual force level as each forces budget allows. Looking forward to a national policy (with a budget per region to match perhaps!).

[Up North]

Despite being a regular visitor to Rotorheads on PPrune I generally abstain from posting; however at this time I feel the need to engage with the regular posters. Many of the threads are very valuable; the information gleaned often augments the experience that many of us already bring to the rotary world. The old adage of “Learn by others mistakes” applies and many lessons are learned through others misfortunes. I have found this particular thread extremely useful in gauging what others think about the ongoing process of change from Police air support as it was, through the transition to NPAS. Those of us that are members of Police Units around England and Wales have a vested interest in this process, irrespective of whether we feel is right or wrong. Threads like these allow us to see the argument from other perspectives. Personalities such as Tigerfish come over really well; you can feel the passion in what they post, honest and from the heart. This is an important time for Police Air Support and important issues should not be undermined by disruptive and unproductive posters.

My real reason for posting is to draw attention to the way some individuals, and one in particular have used this and other threads to pursue their own vendettas and agendas. I have been involved in Police air support since the 1990’s as a contracted pilot working in the North East. I am delighted with the way myself and my fellow pilots are treated by our company, right since day one. The balance between police officers/observers, engineers, maintenance organisations, support staff and pilots is extremely important in police air support units. The police observers I work with have become very good friends and colleagues, many of them are first rate aviators and bring a critical component to crew composition. I will challenge and rebuke any poster who belittles or ridicules the observers’ abilities and professionalism, whoever they may be. In short; air support would be a pale shadow of itself without the years of core police experience that observers bring to the table.

“lynx no more/props stopped/wright 123” IMHO are all the same person. These personas have also been used on recent threads such as “Cleveland police go it alone” and “Yorkshire Air Ambulance & Multiflight” What is common about these three threads (there are others) is this individuals obsessive hatred for anything to do with PAS/MAS/SAS and their Dutch parent company. He also ridicules MD out in America and anything to do with 902’s . He does not give police air observers any credit at all and often derides them in a totally unacceptable manner. He pours nothing but criticism on the air support unit at Cleveland and despite the cracking job they all do, he sees fit to take the proverbial p**s out of them. Others such as the chairman of Cleveland Police Authority also receive unwarranted scorn. All of this by a man who hides behind various personas, I challenge you come out and be yourself; and stop talking utter rubbish about ‘Fine Gazelles’ ‘Northern Shires’ and ‘HM Forces’. If you knew anything at all; you would know a soldier would say he was an Army pilot, based at Dishforth flying Chicken Legs! Lynx no more, you have seen no more Army service than Sponge Bob Square Pants, although I suspect unlike you he would make it past day one of basic training!

In short; unless this sad, vindictive, small minded individual has a positive contribution to add, he should absent himself from any serious thread that concerns rotary aviation. An industry which he is currently not involved in. Incidentally, the Industry, and those of us who work in it are openly mocked by him. This is the same industry that once upon a time gave him secure employment for many years. Show some loyalty and respect to those who still carry out this invaluable public service.
lynx no more/props stopped/wright 123 why don’t you give us all a break and leave the professionals and those who care alone to conduct lively and constructive debate! Perhaps you could take up a new challenge, such as writing a funny book on air support, or perhaps run for Parliament, or even invent something useful for helicopter crews, maybe a device to clear fog at airfields would be handy. You may even consider giving something positive back to society and become a fully qualified paramedic on a ground ambulance, I am sure given your track record you will be as successful in these ventures as you are at posting useful comments on PPrune.

“For info”; Up North

Oh and by the way take “Cat up a Tree” with you!

[Bronx]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/BronxNYC/chiponshldr.jpg

[timex]

Only 1 chip?

[Wagging Finger]

and so small!


By the way, Well said 'up North':ok:

[Flying Lawyer]

lynx no more/props stopped/wright 123/Cat up a Tree seems to have gone unusually quiet.
I was looking forward to reading his explanation. :)

Perhaps he's chosen to go the way of the now thankfully departed Phil (Waste of) Space.


FL

[Fortyodd2]

As we used to say in the Military - "Target falls when hit!"

[PANews]

Bristol’s Filton Airport is to close at the end of 2012 following a review by owner BAE Systems of its commercial and economic viability.
The airport is used by BAE Systems for company flights and other executive operations, these move to Lulsgate. The Western Counties police helicopter operated on behalf of Avon and Somerset and Gloucestershire police will have to find a new home.

So NPAS got that right!

Colerne on the fog it is then!

[SilsoeSid]

As we used to say in the Military - "Target falls when hit!"

Wasn't it;

"Targets Will Fall When Hit .... Watch and Shoot, Watch and Shoot."

;)

[lynx no more]

I appear to have been attached to other posters again ...............................

That's because you've been pursuing your personal agenda in four different usernames




Cant speak for the other Pruners who you mentioned in your strange tale .........................

Yes you can.

You may think we're naïve, but we're not.
We know that 'props stopped', 'wright123', 'Cat up a Tree' & 'Lynx never was' are all you.

You are by no means the only poster with more than one username and, provided it's not for ulterior motives and that the different names are not used to flood the forum with repetitive boring posts, we don't mind.

(We had someone recently who not only used his various usernames to thank himself for his wonderful posts but welcome himself back when he'd been away. :rolleyes:)


You definitely fail the 'ulterior motive' criterion and became, at the very least, marginal on the 'boring' criterion.




PS I'm not Phil.

True.
(No-one suggested you are.)



Senior Pilot

[props stopped]

This may be slightly off thread ..............



Completely off thread.
And pursuing your own agenda - yet again.






Back to the thread now I've got that off my chest.


Not for you. http://www.arcadewithme.com/forums/style_emoticons/default/waving_smiley.gif

[timex]

I appear to have been attached to other posters again for challenging various organisations or PAS/md characters. For the record I have heard that there are a lot of unhappy ex pilots from the PAS quarters, who have not been so quiet about their time there and what happened while there.
UP North sounds like a typical Joep man, who says he doesnt have much to say, but certainly wobbles all over the shop, but WILL he be there carrying his leader Joep's bags in court?
It might not sit well in some quarters such as PAS or Cleveland but a cat up a tree, isnt that a job up where you are, I had to look back for the posts

Cant speak for the other Pruners who you mentioned in your strange tale, but what is the last count of PAS pilots who jumped ship 'up north' since the 1990's? is it around 50 to date. People do talk down at Staverton and not just in the Bond camp.

What is the obsession with PAS and its history? As far as I know the NE has had 1 change in 4yrs. (Guy moved to a closer to home base).

[B.U.D.G.I.E]

I do notice that you don't deny any of what upnorth said. Would have expected a little bit of defence if it was not true.

Happy easter all:D

[SilsoeSid]

Anyhoo....What's new?


Apart from me, writing in poetry :8

[SilsoeSid]

Nice to see someone flying the flag :ok:

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g11/silsoesid/G-POLA_.jpg

[PANews]

Congratulations to Senior Pilot in rooting out the multiple identity of 'props stopped', 'wright123', 'Cat up a Tree' & 'Lynx never was'.... although I suspect that it is not too difficult unless four computers and a very split personality are in use. I have enough trouble with one identity over two computers! Must be getting too old for subterfuge.

I feel perhaps that I ought to dream up something new and exciting about PAS to fit in with what has clearly been a force fed line of thinking but I will let that pass this time around. I wonder which of the four names will survive.

Looking into the news that Filton is to close by the end of 2012 raises other 'Rotorhead' aspects including the Great West Air Ambulance having to find a new home and also that the pending [forever pending?] Avon fire trial of the technology was to be based there. With three emergency services heli-ops thus put out a solution might be a heliport that could solve the 'Colerne' option.

There is clearly a need for a specialist helicopter base in the central area of Bristol and it will allow BAE to ditch the main runways and sell them off for housing. I understand it is primarily that the cost of repairing the main runways is prohibitive to simply support the Airbus delivery flights - other means [sea] have been examined apparently. Untimately it may be a thin edge of a closure of the whole plant. Airbus no longer have a UK stake to honour and that could ultimately spell bad news all round for Filton. BAE equally have a history of financing their business by reducing capacity. Royal Ordnance was one example in the past and times are hard.

[Coconutty]

It's gone very quite in here since the departure of the Schizo(s) !

Even had to resort to reading Brynn's paper to see if there's any news :eek: (;))

According to PANews, "One force has trialled the new ‘central control room’ system already
and first reports are that the move has added ten minutes to the reaction time." :\

And that's just ONE force trialling it - if a centralised control room were responsible for receiving ALL requests for Air support throughout the Country,
and then arranging deployment ( as proposed ), I could imagine that the delay might increase even further.

The original NPAS plan was for xx% of the UK to receive Air support within 20 minutes
( apparantly based on actual flying times from the reduced number of bases, and not taking into account the time from REQUEST to LAUNCH ).

A map showing "10 minute circles" - appears to be a more realistic picture of how the switch to NPAS might affect coverage and response times.
( PANews - Any chance of putting a copy here ? )

Adding in this ( minimum ?? ) 10 minute delay from request to launch, leaves only 10 minutes for transit to scene :uhoh:

Anyone here have any more info on the trial ?


http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[PANews]

Blimey! Things must be quiet! :O

The map you speak of is on-line but unfortunatly I cannot easily access the url from the pc I am using. I hope to put it up later but it is of course on line at the 'other place' already [no advertising].

As you will see from its suggested coverage [based on the future bases as planned last October rather than current placings] some current areas of good coverage [Cambridgeshire and Sussex etc spring to mind] are clearly in 'no cover' spots.

The map

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/10932568/NationalASUMap10minring.pub

[B.U.D.G.I.E]

any truth in the rumour the liverpool pilots have been given their notice ????

[J.A.F.O.]

PAN

Any chance of a URL that we can see? My computer downloads a pub file when I try clicking on your link and a pub file isn't half as interesting as it sounds.

[MightyGem]

any truth in the rumour the liverpool pilots have been given their notice ????
Yes, last week.

[PANews]

Sorry everyone, I had not noticed. I will leave the original in place and if you want you can use it to produce your own variations [if you have Publisher].

Meanwhile the URL I intended is the jpg version ..... bit fuzzy

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/10932568/NationalASUMap10minring.jpg

and trhe PDF version

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/10932568/NationalASUMap10minring.pdf

[J.A.F.O.]

Ta...........................:eek:

[B.U.D.G.I.E]

In the main it kind of makes sense..

[timex]

any truth in the rumour the liverpool pilots have been given their notice ????

Sorry to hear that guys, good luck on the job hunting.

[Thomas coupling]

MightyGem - r u moving to pastures greener?

I see John is going to be the CP for Cheshire....It will be good to see a shiney new 135 hovering over Liverpool in the future then!!!:mad:

[yme]

Anybody got any updates on the original theme?

[Art of flight]

Will the Cheshire aircraft have to fly left-hand orbits then;)

[standby standby]

Are we due any sort of statement from NPAS as to where they are along the long and windy road?

Or maybe it will take a few months for them to decide on how to do that as well!

[SilsoeSid]

Are we due any sort of statement from NPAS as to where they are along the long and windy road?

Bulldozers don't tend to do long and windy !


Just another day at the NPAS office ;)

http://www.struckcorp.com/images/home/rs1000dozersm.jpg

[tigerfish]

Steady on Silso. Don't be too critical of NPAS or you will be silenced! They do not allow dissent!

Tigerfish

[Art of flight]

Is that you starting work on your new base Sid?

[Art of flight]

It's a shame you cropped the picture off as we can't see which of your 2 aircraft you're towing onto the pad!

[Coconutty]

... new base ... ?? ?? :confused:

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[Windsor Loft]

I thought South Wales helicopter had moved to St Athan from Cardiff Heliport?

[Brilliant Stuff]

Cracking Bulldozer, can I hire it.

[SilsoeSid]

Well done B.Stuff, that's another delay while a think tank/working group/framework is sorted out to discuss that question.

By the time you get an answer, natural erosion would have done the work for you ;)

[SilsoeSid]

Does anyone know if there is any truth in the rumour that in excess of £25 mill has been spent so far, in order to save £15 mill.

Also, is it true to say that we are still further back in the regionalisation/nationalisation plan than we were 18 months ago?

[tigerfish]

Crikey SilsoeSid you really are risking a call from the heavies!

They tried it on me but reports of my death were greatly exagerated! The wounds in my back are recovering and I am just waiting for the right moment.

As I have so often said. The long term plan for a National Police Air wing delivered regionally, makes total sense. It is just the method of getting there that needs close examination. The saving of huge amounts of money has been placed above effectiveness, and in the end public safety.

Tigerfish

[SilsoeSid]

Well, as there is a rumour of a pot of gold to buy among other things, fuel for the black Omega for a trip up the M40, I will say this only once.


Be interesting to see as soon as NPAS is in existence, how long it takes to reply to a Freedom of Information request asking; 'In which order was every process established'.

3 guesses as to what was the very first thing to be sorted ;-)

No, it wasn't bases
No, it wasn't pilotage
No, it wasn't pay and pensions
No, it wasn't unit management
No, it wasn't cross force finances
No, it wasn't terms and conditions
No, it wasn't engineering contracts
No, it wasn't fuel and operating costs
No, it wasn't what you are probably thinking...or is it !


This post will self-destruct in 30 seconds :eek:

[SilsoeSid]

The problem is, if you keep something that affects so many people so close to your chest, those people will begin to speculate, rumour monger and question what is going on.

What is going on at the moment? Anyone know?

Having none of the many questions asked being answered either here, (understandable I guess being in the public domain), or on the restricted POLKA site, (the most difficult site to get to see, let alone get answers) leads some to probably come to the wrong conclusions about the whole process.


Am I correct in thinking that those involved in this monumental task have extensive experience in Police Aviation and all its facets, along with working knowledge akin to first hand UEO experience and varied experience as a member of an Air Ops crew ?

[SilsoeSid]

Memo to SS;

Before leaving the internet cafe in Bogotá, Columbia, logoff from PPRuNe and then logoff the computer after clearing the cache!

Juan

[PANews]

Can anyone tell me who does the pilotage for Cleveland?

Is it Direct or contracted to someone?

Thanking you in anticipation:)

[DEGRADE]

Hi

Contracted to PAS

[zorab64]

SS Am I correct in thinking that those involved in this monumental task have extensive experience in Police Aviation and all its facets, along with working knowledge akin to first hand UEO experience and varied experience as a member of an Air Ops crew ?

As I understand it, the main protagonists have no first-hand experience of Air Ops, the job of the crew, or the management of it. The only one that did fell off the radar as soon as a few flaws in the initial plan were pointed out, it would appear.

Obvioulsy, when investigating such large projects in any dis-jointed organisation, there can be huge advantages in bringing in outsiders, to look at the whole from the outside-in. It's done in industry all the time & gives a different and un-prejudiced perspective, which may well result in some good new ideas for added efficiencies and savings. However, normally these people are trained & experienced "consultants", who actually "consult", without ignoring experience & best practice in the way this business has to be run (from the CAA standpoint, in this case). Thinking it can be done outside the rules or, God forbid, that rules can be easily changed to suit a new model, is where this particular project starts to fall down, IMHO. Dragging in senior management &/or pilots (who do tend to know what their talking about) on an ad-hoc basis, will most likely lead to a disjointed, un-focussed, result and unlikely make any of the savings, or efficiencies, expected.

I watch with interest to see how long the remaining wheels will stay on this wagon, and don't really wish to air my predictions (on this public forum), of results or efficiences, should this plan be enacted i.a.w. current proposals! :eek:

[Gloucester Enquirer]

Tigerfish

Back stabbing...the right moment for what? After all, it is your administration that's championing this...you only have to look at the number of times the Coalition has used the NPAS example in documents and speeches.

I'm not sure if you've declared an Interest in this thread.



Gloucester Enquirer

[timex]

Is he back?

[Wagging Finger]

**** DO NOT FEED THE TROLL!!*******:eek:




:=

[Gloucester Enquirer]

Timex and Wagging Finger

Sadly not...now that would be fun!


Gloucester Enquirer

[standby standby]

After recent conversations, it's my understanding that this aircraft
GINFO Search Results | Aircraft Register | Safety Regulation (http://www.caa.co.uk/application.aspx?catid=60&pagetype=65&appid=1&mode=detailnosummary&fullregmark=ZOOG) with at least one member of the NPAS team, was seen at a small elevated airfield in Southern England . . . and a further conversation that this aircraft fully equipped with police role equipment would come in at around £1.2 million. But then I was told it was that the helicopter that crashed at OBLs with the strange tail rotor configuration was 'Blue Thunder'!

Looking at reviews, this machine would appear to have a useful load of 430kgs. Fit it with 100ish kgs of police kit & radios, insert an average Pilot & one Obsever (say 180kgs) & you'd find 150kgs for fuel, for a respectable 3hrs endurance or so. At 140kts cruise, apparently excellent short-field (&, by implication, loiter) performance, and you've got quite a nice package. However, try to do a busy job with two Observers & you'll only see 60 mins or so in the air (depending on Observer largesse) and no noticeable advantage over a rotary, except you'd have to find a runway sooner!

[zorab64]

C'mon SS, please don't poison this rotary forum with planks - it sends shivers up my spine!

Looks interesting though!

[PANews]

The interest in the Tecnam is not new and it seems pretty real but the interest in ZOOG is perhaps off-beam because the remaining members of NPAS team missed the PAVCon show last year in Prague.

A former member of the NPAS team, you know the sidelined one with real aeronautical knowledge, was climbing all over the real role equipped Tecnam surveillance aircraft when it was presented to him at the event and the image is just one of a series.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/10932568/OldNPASwithTecnam.jpg

Now of course that 'climbing all over' hands on knowledge is doing other things and the remaining members are apparently starting anew with a straight civil demonstrator without the real ability to show what it can do and to demonstrate how confined it is inside when doing it with real sensors and black boxes rather than visualisations and salesman talk.

We have been here before of course. Most police helicopters were sold from either 'the plan' or from the clean civil demonstrator. It was only when the airframe arrived that the bits of kit started to get in the way of swinging a cat round the 'ample' cabin and the weights meant that the 4 hour duration at 15 degrees C took a nose dive to 40 minutes at a more realistic 25 degrees!

I guess Ollie's view in Prague was far more useful than that south coast encounter. But of course that information point is no longer available.

[Brilliant Stuff]

Am I the only one who keeps finding an extra page on this thread but when I click on it it reloads the current page?

Like now it shows me 38 pages but PANews is the last comment on page 37, on clicking it it reloads and puts me back on top of page 37.

Must be a bug or the next page is only for people with higher clearances or possibly the new NPAS plan is on the next page.:}:}:}

[Senior Pilot]

Am I the only one who keeps finding an extra page on this thread but when I click on it it reloads the current page?

Like now it shows me 38 pages but PANews is the last comment on page 37, on clicking it it reloads and puts me back on top of page 37.

Must be a bug or the next page is only for people with higher clearances or possibly the new NPAS plan is on the next page.

Since we are on Page 74, with your post as No 1466, I'm more than a little puzzled by your problem :hmm:

There is a bug that results in deleted posts still adding to the page count which results in an 'extra page' until the actual post count rolls on to the ghost page, and all becomes normal.

[MightyGem]

Am I the only one who keeps finding an extra page on this thread but when I click on it it reloads the current page?
No, me as well. Thanks for the info Splot

[J.A.F.O.]

Senior Pilot

Not everyone has the same number of threads per page, you can change the settings on PPrune, you know? :E

[Wagging Finger]

Me as well, shows page 75 available and this is the newest on page 74!

[Brilliant Stuff]

Phew, thanks J.A.F.O. :O

[Coconutty]

http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=11&ved=0CBoQFjAAOAo&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.west-midlands-pa.gov.uk%2Fdownloadchecklink.asp%3Ffilename%3D1631%26main%3 D0%26category%3Dcomm1&rct=j&q=west%20midlands%20air%20support&ei=-TbRTdegJsea8QOC_anbDQ&usg=AFQjCNEyL8KBovMIwGnaGyF8Yvb0G6jz9g&cad=rja

West Midlands Police Authority - arrangements for Regional Air support.

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[MightyGem]

this is the newest on page 74!
Page 74! I'm only up to 50!

[yme]

Has anybody started to move yet?

[SilsoeSid]

Has anybody started to move yet?

Or is anybody not moving yet?

[B.U.D.G.I.E]

So looks like from coco's post the midlands will be the first to join up. Nice to see them on the news last night. Not sure who gave them the price of 4.5 mil for the cost of the aircraft. Bit of poetic licence....:=

[Fortyodd2]

Re: Coco's post -
Great, now
Please, Please, Please, Please just get on with it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:ugh::ugh::ugh:

[Nail The Dream]

Hey Whitehead - don't be so anxious !

Methinks that it's gone quiet because nothing is happening - not yet anyway....

I don't think anyone has actually been forced to close yet,
and there appears to be another week to go before some of them start with the joined up thinking ......
if a previously referenced document is anything to go by :

RECOMMENDATION
27. West Midlands Police Authority notes and supports the arrangement for interoperability of the four Air Support Units within the Greater Midlands Region
as a ‘Shadow Service’ in line with the Central region construct of the National Police Air Service (NPAS) from 1 June 2011.

:rolleyes:

[chopper2004]

Chopper used in broken window hunt - Yahoo! News (http://uk.news.yahoo.com/chopper-used-broken-window-hunt-083537941.html)

Police have defended themselves amid claims of heavy-handedness after using a helicopter and two officers to find a schoolboy who kicked a football through a greenhouse.
Tom Clarke, 15, was playing in a pub garden in Chalgrove, Oxfordshire, when a miss-kick sent the ball over a fence and into a glass pane next door.
Moments later a police helicopter which was flying in the area was spotted by an officer on the ground and asked to help find the culprit after the incident was reported by the greenhouse owner.
Tom apologised to the owner and will pay for the damage, according to Thames Valley Police, who said the case was treated as criminal damage. No arrests were made and no caution was issued but police said that any crime recorded could be used in an enhanced Criminal Records Bureau check if relevant to the job applied for.
Tom's father, Darrin Clarke, 42, accused officers of being heavy-handed, telling reporters that his son's "future work life is at risk because of a stupid accident playing football".
The TaxPayers' Alliance also questioned the appropriateness of the resources used.
Campaign director Emma Boon said: "With huge pressures on the police budgets there must be a more proportionate response to incidents like this. A kid accidentally kicking a football through a window should be a matter that neighbours can quietly resolve between them. It's sad that this was not the case in this instance."
Police said they would not scramble their helicopter for low-level crimes but that it may be asked to help by officers on the ground if already airborne nearby.
A police spokesman said: "Thames Valley Police works with limited resources and must ensure these are used appropriately. On this occasion, the crime had just occurred, therefore two officers were sent to deal with it.
"Thames Valley Police would not deploy the force helicopter for low-level crimes such as criminal damage. However, if the helicopter is already airborne and in the area they may be asked to assist by officers on the ground, as happened in this case."

[bolkow]

reminds me of when I lived in Ealing in london. Car crime was rife, as were burglaries in the area I lived in then on three successive saturday nights around 2 am a police helicopter was overhead. When I enquired on the third occasion why it was presetn giving us yet another waking night with the kids, it was out because some drunken yob cracked a bank window. No suggestion of anything more than this, the police officer was wholly inapproprite suggesting I was anti helicopter, until I reminded him that this type of use of them on one occasion in the States resulted in restrictions.

[PANews]

A certain police aviation conference in Bilbao, Spain had an interesting presentation on NPAS yesterday afternoon.

Needless to say it was not direct from any one directly related to NPAS [indeed it was a Spanish company!] but it was a small degree of enlightenment.

Still most outcomes are foggy [as in no one really knows how this is going to work] and no attempt was made by NPAS to address the delegates directly or to seek to network among some of the major players in industry and Euro-policing. The tortoise has retracted its head and is not listening.

[helihub]

nothing is happening - not yet anyway....

Nail The Dream - things HAVE started to happen eg Surrey and Sussex are now one "South East" unit, wef 1st April 2011

[J.A.F.O.]

Troll?????:confused:

[Phil Space]

The TaxPayers' Alliance also questioned the appropriateness of the resources used.
Campaign director Emma Boon said: "With huge pressures on the police budgets there must be a more proportionate response to incidents like this. A kid accidentally kicking a football through a window should be a matter that neighbours can quietly resolve between them. It's sad that this was not the case in this instance."
As I've said before these are big toys that plod uses 24/7 to justify them.

Police said they would not scramble their helicopter for low-level crimes but that it may be asked to help by officers on the ground if already airborne nearby.
A police spokesman said: "Thames Valley Police works with limited resources and must ensure these are used appropriately. On this occasion, the crime had just occurred, therefore two officers were sent to deal with it.
"Thames Valley Police would not deploy the force helicopter for low-level crimes such as criminal damage. However, if the helicopter is already airborne and in the area they may be asked to assist by officers on the ground, as happened in this case."

And Police Camera Action is a whole series showing plod wasting public money chasing kids.

The TaxPayers' Alliance needs to rein in the use of police aviation units.

Bobby's on the beat produce a better result.

In the case of the broken greenhouse glass it would have been a lot more cost effective.

As a taxpayer and pilot I resent the waste of public money on the proliferation
of police air support units.

Time to get back to ad hoc charter.

[zorab64]

I'd suggest that the Surrey / Sussex collaboration is really no change, or an improvement, to the situation that existed before April Fool's Day - these dates are always so appropriate, aren't they!

Given that Hampshire had already retired their fixed-wing, Surrey had been covering their neck-of-the-woods anyway. Getting into bed with Sussex only means that there's a bit of mutual aid when one unit is stretched with a job at the end of its leash, or down for maintenance (this has been working in East Anglia for years). For slow-time jobs, this isn't really a problem, as an extra 10-15 mins transit will unlikely affect the price of fish, although it could cause problems if they need to haul-ar*e back to their own patch. Any task, requiring more rapid response, however, will be invalid if either machine has a long transit, collaboration or not.

As with this whole plan, the singular failure is in the understanding of the importance of transit time for different jobs. Reaction time is critical to effective aerial policing of many tasks - the really sad thing is that too many believe (from Chief Constables (having been sold "savings" by NPAS) to Control Room Inspectors) that getting an aircraft overhead, no matter that the horse bolted some while previously, is the only thing that matters. When it comes to the crunch, they will be able to say that they "deployed all resources available", no matter that the longer (than pre-NPAS) deployment time completely neutered the effectiveness of the airborne resource. :ugh: :ugh: There's so much time spent covering backsides, that there's often little left to get on with the job!

[Coconutty]

..... both state that the helicopter was hovering at a height of 20 feet!
It may be for only a very short period of time, but I suspect that all
Police helicopters will fly at this height - at least twice during every flight :8 !

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[MightyGem]

I don't think anyone has actually been forced to close yet,
Oh yes, Merseyside as of 18th July. :{ :ugh: :sad: :(

[berty]

PAvNews mentions the Bilbao conference and the update of NPAS - given by a Spanish contractor - possibly a Spanish waiter named Manuel. What a definative source that is!
:=
Perhaps it was the same source that led to the editorial comment in the May edition of PAvNews along the lines of the April meeting of NPAS had to be paid for by forces. WRONG. I believe the meeting in April was a slight change to the platform User Working Groups that have been held every 6 months for some years. (Previously, they were held in hotels with conference facilities - but this was held on a police training site hence cheaper). Delegates had to pay for there own rooms, but overall 000's of £'s were saved. The word is that there was an NPAS update at the end - strange if there wasn't

A decent journal might be expected to publish an apology in next months edition. We'll see. It might help if PAvNews reported fact, not fiction and cut the editorial burble.

As for Bilbao, PAVNews has an obvious interest in arranging PAvCon - presumeably this is why he is trying to bait the NPAS team to attending.

[J.A.F.O.]

W06

I meant no such thing as I have no knowledge of the situation to which you referred.

I say what I mean and mean what I say; so please do not read anything else into my comments than is actually there.