UK Police helicopter budget cuts

[Bravo73]

Look at the Cessna Caravan, a single aircraft that can be flown for public transport now.

Really? At night and/or in IMC?

When did that change?

[Hughes500]

Ask Bob Crowe, rumour has it he has got it/getting it through

[B.U.D.G.I.E]

when ecuk can charge up to £60 an hour for an engineer. Why do you think hueys, that paying 2 engineers to look after an aircraft is expensive.:rolleyes:

[Thud_and_Blunder]

Interesting thread.

Hughes500 - you know the patch well, understand engineering support for helicopters and are capable of picking up some of D&C's 'creative' claims in their blurb. In particular, '24/7 availability', 'difficulty of providing mutual support to neighbouring forces'... However, Sid's comments come from an experienced pilot on one of the country's busiest and most successful operational units - much of what he says is good gen.

Sid - you know the job well and are good at research. In particular, you are able to give useful insight into the intricacies of operating a police aircraft run directly by the force concerned. However, I'm sure that even you can see that a high proportion of the tasks on the D&C website would raise eyebrows on an operational ASU/AOU, and as for D&C's claim that they are available 24/7 - take a look at the earliest/ latest task times to see what the reality is down in Janner Land. As an ex-native, you'll have a fair idea of where the crime is around here (clue - it ain't around the far east of the area). You may even be able to discover the D&C police pursuit policy and the aviation unit's history (or lack thereof) in involvement along the M5 when compared to a force like yours. As for mutual support, they're 'aving a larf - pretty much a one-way street, and it's all inbound to D&C. Your 23:55 post on 20 June even has D&C citing 2 different endurances for their aircraft, one (2h30) to show how useful they are and t'other in your following quote (2h00) to show how they need to stay near Exeter.

As an interested local, I have been very pleased to note the massive increase in air activity outside the immediate environs of Exeter since the expensive new toy turned up. I hope that this new enthusiasm to get airborne continues, as it might mean that units on the ground who've grown used to not even bothering to bid for the aircraft may be tempted to give it a try.

Yesterday the 145 was sat on the ground while 3 emergency aircraft responded to a major RTC on the A361 (2 air ambos plus Rescue 169 from Chiv, bless 'em). Don't know why, other than that the aircraft was u/s. No engineering activity seen at Middlemoor when N Devon's helimed called in to drop their casualty by the land ambulance there, but that of course is not to say that things weren't in the process of being fixed. As the N Devon air amb lifted to return to base the pilot heard Exeter Radar chatting to Police 10 - another mutual support task on D&C's patch?

My own thoughts? Get the police aircraft into a position with sensible reaction times to its whole patch. Don't constrict thinking to historical aviation sites - Castle do seem to manage very well from Liskeard despite the vagaries of the weather down here. It's nice to be IFR capable (and in my opinion essential to operate on NVG), but a police aircraft in IMC ain't a police aircraft, it's just another Public Transport passenger aircraft doing nothing to support officers on the ground. Naturally none of this will change because of the forthcoming budgetary restraints, but I hope D&C don't think we're all convinced by their claims. I certainly ain't.

[tigerfish]

Budgie, You comment that ECUK, - (& presumeably PAS ) can charge up to £60 per hour for an engineer, inferring that that was expensive. Well I guess in some ways that it is, but having just been charged nearly £70 per hr by my local garage for servicing my car perhaps its not ( & my fitters didn't need to be licensed either!

But what a lot of the none proffesional small heli drivers don't seem to appreciate is that the current almost all weather 24/7 Police Heli's are carrying a lot of very advanced Police role equipement. That equipment is not only pretty heavy, but is often more likely to develop a fault than the A/C itself.

We have got to the point where even I begin to wonder if we might be able to save some money by not always going for the very highest level of kit. NB that is NOT to say I am advocating a return to a hand held camera and not much else. What I mean is this, - is the current HD version of the camera, any camera, much better than what was claimed to be the best in say 2004/5 or does it take a real expert to be able to tell the difference? (I genuinely don't know, that is why I ask ). The same goes for other uprated kit. Also weight equates to additional fuel burn, so why to we always specify a very heavy PA system when most units say that they hardly ever use it. How much does it cost to fly that around on every mission?

Again, whilst I can never accept the arguement for a dual roled aircraft because of the compromise on kit carried, I must again suggest that real money would be saved by combined bases. Economies of scale on nearly everything else would surely follow.

Tigerfish

[jayteeto]

Sid, would like to apologise to you about my last postings. When I said waste of time searches, I didn't mean the ones where young kids go missing in the street. For those, there is a chance of success and I would agree to launch every time. I am talking about the totally rediculous searches where there is little or no justification to go. We spent hours on one regular missing from home, the bosses would not ping the phone because it would cost a hundred quid....... :uhoh: ......... When they finally did do the ping, the kid was 30 miles away in Blackpool!!

[chopjock]

Sid
Actually Chodjock, I think you'll find crab@ was referring to the DA at Plymouth being 700 ft, not the elevation, which by the way is 476ft.
What? Plymouth has a Density Altitude of 700 feet?

As an aviator I would have thought you would know better than to argue that one potential base location is better than another purely because of the weather. It wasn't me that first brought weather into the discussion.

Once again you disregard answers from known reliable sources and show your ignorance about basic aviation operations. Could that be because you conveniently only tell one side of the story?

Best of all you ignore the fact, one that you were told, that Exeter operates 24h as opposed to Plymouth that doesn't.

Not very handy for a unit that operates 24/7 is it! That is 24/7, subject to weather conditions.

[Whirlygig]

What? Plymouth has a Density Altitude of 700 feet?No, it has a Decision Altitude of 700ft. I think this is another example of what others have termed, "ignorance about basic aviation operations".

That is 24/7, subject to weather conditions. Whereas Plymouth only operates 0630 - 2230 so even if when the weather is nice, it's not much use to a 24 hour operation. :rolleyes:

Cheers

Whirls

[chopjock]

Thanks for explaining that Whirls, It clears it up nicely as I was beginning to wonder, talking about elevations etc. Although I wouldn't term a precision approach a "basic aviation operation", especially with regards to helicopters.

[Bravo73]

Ask Bob Crowe, rumour has it he has got it/getting it through

Pah. He's been saying that for 10+ years. Ever since he's been flogging Cessna Caravans actually.

SE public transport at night/in IMC isn't going to happen in JAA/EASAland. The Germans will never let it happen, apparently.



Anyway, back to the subject in hand...

[B.U.D.G.I.E]

Budgie, You comment that ECUK, - (& presumeably PAS ) can charge up to £60 per hour for an engineer, inferring that that was expensive. Well I guess in some ways that it is, but having just been charged nearly £70 per hr by my local garage for servicing my car perhaps its not ( & my fitters didn't need to be licensed either!


You don't really need to have a service and the people who make your car won't stop you from driving it if its not serviced. You don't get a item done before during or after a service on a heli and they WILL stop you from flying. Items with hours life cycles more so.

hat equipment is not only pretty heavy, but is often more likely to develop a fault than the A/C itself.

wrong again. You look at the latest systems from wescam for example and they are lighter because there is no need for a seperate box to run it. Its all in the turret

is the current HD version of the camera, any camera, much better than what was claimed to be the best in say 2004/5 or does it take a real expert to be able to tell the difference?

much much better. Not only because the HD side makes in more stable and thus providing a better picture. But zoom levels mean what used to look like a pile of warm grass, which may have been a scum bag. Now actually look like a scum bag and they get locked up. :D:D:D:D

The same goes for other uprated kit. Also weight equates to additional fuel burn, so why to we always specify a very heavy PA system when most units say that they hardly ever use it.

new kit on new choppers is actually light because of the way its fitted to the aircraft.:D

[tigerfish]

Budgie,

I am not so sure about your arguements re engineers. In comparison I think that the aircraft maintenance orgs are being pretty competative in their pricing. I certainly don't think they are making a bomb on maintenance. Whereas some of the car dealers are!

Your assurances on the kit is refreshing though, so on that basis would be happy to support going for the best kit, - if it can be afforded. And that is the rub. The whole point of my note was to say that we might just have to cut our cloth a little more carefully in the future.

You seem much more confident regarding the reliability of some of the role equipment than most of the people that I have spoken to. Their comments suggest that both a/c's are running pretty well nowadays, but when things do go wrong, it is usually the role equipment that causes them the most anxiety and takes longer to fix.
That was not a criticism, merely an observation on what I am told.

My thoughts on the PA systems are not based on the very latest kit from the States, but more on the older kit that vast majority of our units still carry. Are you really saying that it is possible to mount it in such a way as to negate the weight of those huge magnets etc? Again you seem to be missing my point, I was suggesting that very often we are being forced to trade fuel and endurance against kit carried. My question therefore remains, If it is hardly ever used, is it worth the penalty of carrying it? If your answer is "Yes, because on the odd occasion it is used, it's worth its weight etc", then thats fine, but it is a question that needs asking!

As always my questions are placed in an effort to move the art on, never to hold it back.

Tigerfish

[Hughes500]

This must have happened ( I hope)
Has the home office looked at having a national helicopter force, where we could have the following

1. Ac placed round the country as to where they are needed, not where the individual forces are, thus giving sensible response times and proper coverage
2. The same ac so we can have economy of scale and better pricing and support from the manufacturer
3. Centralised maintenance where there is say a couple of spare ac which can be used when others are down for annuals etc etc. These spares will be the same as all the others so everyone knows how to work the bloody thing.
4. Area engineering support with a central or perhaps regional bases
5. Crew being able to move to a neighbouring ac if a staffing problem in one area

I could go on but I I need some shut eye

[tigerfish]

Hughes 500! Have you been asleep for the past few weeks? The answers to questions 1 to 5 are yes, yes, yes, yes and yes. But there are a number of questions that flow from that.
(1). How, with no spare money do you set such a body up?
(2) How, """""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" compensate those forces that were ahead of the game and went ahead in the past 25 years, bought their own a/c and proved that it could be done, but now need to hand over their assets to the new body?
(3) Ensure that in setting up the new body (Service) that you do not reduce the service that is currently provided?
(4) Provide a capability that is actually better than exists today? Remember that the whole idea is not just to be able to fly about, but to catch criminals, lock the ****Ards up, and to protect our citizens. It is about the "Protection and detection of crime and the prosecution of offenders against the peace".

We must never forget the basic rules of Policing. That is what POLICE air support is all about. Otherwise we have been wasting our time for the past 25 years. Its not just about flying, or piloting, its about doing Policing better, more safely and more efficiently and above all NEVER letting the criminal get the upper hand.

Tigerfish. (Yes, - Old Grumpy's back)

Tigerfish

[[email protected]]

Whilst there has been a great deal of criticism of how and where D&C Police operate their helicopter, there have been no constructive alternative suggestions of where it could operate from without compromising its availability.

Thud - why would you want a 4th helicopter on scene for a RTC - the police were there on the ground, do they need to be overhead as well?

[nodrama]

why would you want a 4th helicopter on scene for a RTC - the police were there on the ground, do they need to be overhead as well?


The D & C police helicopter is co-located with one of the Devonn AAs. It has and does provide a casavac role if asked to by Ambulance Control (as does the Chiv SAR). I think thats what Thud was infering.

[Hughes500]

Tigerfish
Not really been asleep not concentrating !
Why do forces need compensating, surely the home office takes away a proportion of the budget of each force to set it up properly.
I know this is a long term goal, bit like having loads of different forces, why do we need D and C, avon and someset, Dorset etc etc Think of all the duplication that goes on. If Sir Terry Leheay of Tesco's ran The Police I bet you would see some savings then ! After all ( generalisation I know) The police are a logistical exercise - the right part in the right place at the right time

[Hughes500]

Crab

I have been critical of the way the D and C heli has been run. I have been talking in an ideal world. I would imagine history has all to do with what has gone on. Just to remind everyone of the thread was budget cuts. All I have been suggesting is to take one step back and look at the bigger picture and perhaps think the unthinkable. In business you need to do that, yes costs might be greater short term but you have to have pain for long term gain. In a different life I used to run the logistics operation for a well know food store in the SW,making 1000 deliveries to 350 retailers a week using 35 wagons and 200 staff, with a 12 to 24 hour lead time. All the time you are having to justify your costs to a board of directors ( and shareholders) if that means closing a depot down and moving so be it ( had to do it) yes it can be painful and there will be huge resisitance to change. But and it is a big BUT you have to look after the whole to make it as efficient as possible otherwis ethe whole pack of cards crashes. In my experience those who work for the Govt have " its a big firm mentality" When you leave the mil or the civil service you suddenly realise on the outside things are very very different .
Bet your enjoying the sunny weather up at Chivenor ! Pity there's no surf

[Thomas coupling]

There are political reasons for the D and C ASU relocating further south west. It has nothing whatsoever to do with elevations or weather factor. The stats are what makes an ASU and there are more crimes nearer Exeter than there are nearer Plymouth.
Police helos do not rely on diverting to the nearest ILS simply because when the approach is completed, the a/c would then be stuck at that airport and unable to get back to base to carry on with its shift until the weather cleared!!
The expectation that ASU's have to be positioned close to an airport to recover in bad weather is not realistic.
Police helos are often required above RTC's especially if there is a section 1 because the coroner/courts require aerial footage.

[Hughes500]

TC

Was once told by a policeman that Plymouth is the crime blackspot of the Sw not Exeter

[J.A.F.O.]

Any chance those who want to discuss Devon & Cornwall could set up a thread to do that.

Tigerfish

I can also confirm that the new kit is miles ahead of where it was 5 years ago though I don't know if HD is strictly necessary as I don't yet see the benefit of that.

I sincerely hope that police aviation is thought about at a national strategic level, I'm sure that there are many ways to do it more cheaply and, perhaps, more efficiently without compromising safety.

There are many times that I really want two engines, autopilot and a 5000 hour pilot but there are also many times and many jobs where one engine and/or wings that go at the same speed as the fuselage would be entirely acceptable and would get the job done. I don't want to go into specifics but there are many tasks which do not require the expensive machinery that we throw at them.

With the cameras that tigerfish mentioned there's really no need to be low over built up areas any more.

The kit has improved beyond all recognition in just the few years I've been involved and the whole of police aviation has grown up from the awkward teenager that it was ten years ago into a mature service; it is time that we started thinking differently particularly in the current economic climate.

We don't need to throw out the baby with the bath water, we have worked hard to develop air support into what it is today, UK air operations is streets ahead of many other nations, but it is time to change the bathwater. We can't go on doing things in the same way that they've been done for years merely because that is the way they've been done for years.

We live in interesting times but I am confident that UK air support will continue to mature and grow.

Sorry, please get back to whether Plymouth or Exeter is best now.

[tigerfish]

Hughes 500. I can accept that you don't need all those Forces, but you do need all of those aircraft! Some bright spark has recently suggested that by moving the bases around a little, you can reduce the numbers of aircraft from four to three! The four Police areas involved cover from Tewksbury in the North down to Swindon and Bournemouth in the East and everything West of that line down to lands end! Forgetting the isles of Scilly.
Now the existing four aircraft have to work very hard, and co-operate already to do that as best they can, but there are a number of areas where the 20 minute rule goes out the window.
Now the blithering idiots that suggest a reduction to three machines appear to be forgetting that helicopters do require quite a lot of maintenance. ( And as budgie recently tried to enlighten me, helicopter maintenance cannot be postponed). That means for a considerable part of the time the south West will actually only be covered by Two or on accasions one machine! There are very few role equipped spares! How will that work? How can anybody say that that system will provide enhanced or even preserve existing cover?

In repect of compensation, the fact is that even after receiving a 40% grant as many Forces did, in order to buy their own machines, they will have paid out a considerable amount of their own (taxpayers) money. That is what they want to see compensated for when it is taken away from them into the central pot. Obviously the cry will be more strident the more recent the purchase was.

OK Ok, I know that times are hard. Try telling that to the victims when crime comes back hard, as it will do, once the criminal realises that the hated helicopter has gone away. Remember too that once you dismantle what is currently there, you will not be able to replace it quickly once you realise what a +++++ ++ you have made of it.

Tigerfish

[Coconutty]

Chop :
Although I wouldn't term a precision approach a "basic aviation operation"It would appear that whatever YOU would term a precision approach as,
will be of little interest to the majority of posters on this thread. :zzz:

As for the question of a National Police Air Wing ( Or whatever they decide to call it ) ....
Oh Yes ! This has been, and still is, being actively looked at :hmm:

I personally can't see this progressing as quick as the H.O. might like though,
and would be very surprised if it is in place before the start of the Olympics,
particularly if the delays currently being experienced in trying to set up "Regional" Air Units are anything to go by. :rolleyes:

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[Hughes500]

Tfish

Wasnt suggesting a reduction in ac ( my post could have been worded better) better to redeploy for instance how about 1 in Plymouth, 1 in Taunton 1 in Bristol 1 in Yeovil or Bournemouth
Keeping going across the UK therefore have ac where they have best response times rather than covering a force area

[tigerfish]

Now you really are honing in on the advantages of a national scheme. i.e. the ability to place a/c where they can be most effective rather than where the current force has placed them. My concern remains however that the bean counters will use the exercise as a means to reduce overall cost rather than a means of increasing efficiency and cover.

Jafo is quite correct about it being time to change the bathwater, but its the use of "smoke & mirrors" that I am worried about.

We already have the best, lets improve on it, not put it all at risk! There are ways of saving a considerable amount of money by re-structuring, and it would be folly to fight against it. BUT the answer is not as simple as just removing 5 or 6 a/c from the plot.

I have said enough, perhaps too much. So will now go and sit quietly in the corner for a while & suck my thumb.

Tigerfish

[J.A.F.O.]

You could possibly remove aircraft if you made sure you had role equipped spares.

[Coconutty]

Hmmm ...

Which 5 or 6 aircraft would you "remove" ?

HOW would you "remove" of them - Sell them ? Lease them out ? Who to ??

HOW MUCH could you sell or lease them for - At what LOSS ??

HOW do you persuade a Police Authority - who were originally persuaded that it was fantastic idea
to invest the 4 or 5 million over the next 10 or so years to buy the aircraft in the first place,
that they should now "remove" their aircraft ?

What aircraft type are you suggesting they are replaced with ( at 10% of the running costs ) ?

Where do these miracle 12 replacement aircraft come from ?

How much will they cost to purchase and maintain ?

How much will it cost to purchase and maintain a stock of Role Equipped spares,
compared to existing Service Level agreements with the various manufacturers ?

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[Thomas coupling]

Yes, but apart from that - he has a point:)

[[email protected]]

So, still no actual suggestions of which aircraft to cut, which bases to use or lose but still a gut feeling that costs are too high to produce what has been rightly called 'the best'.

This is the same sort of flawed argument used to justify the SARH monster - and one which on close examination didn't stand up to scrutiny - the only way to cut costs was to reduce the level of cover and service.

Decide what you want and then pay for it - all efficiency measures achieve are to reduce effectiveness and flexibility which, as all students of military doctrine will know, is the key to air power:)




TC, so do all fatal RTCs require helicopter top cover? How do forces without helos cope??? I am sure the coroners like to have aerial footage but it isn't a requirement is it?

[jayteeto]

Not all require it, but we used to search for anyone who could be injured in the local area. Once found a bloke in a ditch 150 yards away with the top of his head peeled open. He had wandered away and nobody realised he was missing in the confusion....... Thermal camera got him.

[Fortyodd2]

Crab - Re "top cover" at RTC's.

Scenario - Major RTC on major road - nothing will move and road will not be re-opened until Crash Investigator satisfied he has all necessary evidence gathered. He can walk around on the ground doing it for a couple of hours or task the aircraft that, with video and stills, can do the whole thing in 10 mins. Question is, how long do you, or more correctly, the drivers, passengers, businesses & goods stuck in the queues, want the major road closed for?? During the hours of darkness, aircraft also used to check that no-one has been thrown clear and left to die until discovered the following day.

[EjectEject]

Fortyodd2

I hear what you say, but based on my experience that does not happen. The AI still keep the road shut for hours and hold everyone up after the aircraft has visited and taken some images. Then there's the minor RTC's that get photographed unnecessarily so, most of the time for a belt and braces approach, sometimes at the previously expressed whim of a Coroner who just wants it because they have seen one from a justified RTC when images were quite rightly required and now want them for all RTC. Yes, you could suggest it proves the worth for air support, but is it necessary every time evidentially to prove, well nothing that is always obtained on the ground. IMHO, photographic tasks is one area that cost savings could be made and the costs saved put to better use in proactive flying against ASB or crime reduction disruptive flying. After all, give the public what they want and they want ASB reduced, off road motorcycles dealt with, crime reduced or prevented by a police presence (in the air or on the ground) and finally offenders caught. But if you asked them about still images taken from the air for an RTC, I do not think it would be on their list of priorities - generally speaking.

I do agree with the use of aircraft for night ops and checking serious RTC.

[Hughes500]

Crab

Sorry cant agree with your efficiency savings as part of military doctrine and airpower. Efficiency is everything, what would you prefer 1 x harrier GR7 with smart weapons or 2 x GR7's with dumb weapons, one is more efficient than the other is it not, as a grunt before I flew have seen at very close hand both types and I know which is better !!

[[email protected]]

If the dumb weapon misses the target but the smart one hits it, which was the best option?

[SilsoeSid]

Huesey, not quite sure which option you prefer there.

How do the costs in your comparison back up what I think you say?

1 GR7 with Smart Bombs
v
2 GR7 with Dumb Bombs

Smart Bombs are more accurate, but cost more.
Dumb Bombs can be accurate, but can also cause greater collateral damage.

Greater collateral damage means a backward step towards the aim, yet to get to the aim more efficiently, you would have to spend more.

Surely to achieve the aim quickly and more efficiently, 2 GR7s both with Smart Bombs would, despite costing a lot more, result in an overall saving in hearts and minds (less collateral damage), quicker achievement of the aim and less time at risk for all the 'operatives' in a given theatre.

Ultimately the initial cost would be greater, but in the longer term due to efficiency, it would be cheaper in both financial and humanitarian terms.

[Thomas coupling]

Crab - police ops is nothing like SAR-H. Police ops are modern sophisticated commercial organisations run very very efficiently. This is what SAR-H is striving for. AFTER SAR-H kicks in, then and only then will you be able to compare like for like.
There is one MAJOR thorn in the side of continued advances in police ops and that is ACPO. Until they are dismantled (hopefully by this government under the public services review, the regional air support services will continue to operate as a fragmented unco-ordinated entity. Each Chief Constable (assuming he or she wants air support) wants to run it their way without interference.
GB needs a co-ordinated affair run nationally IF and only IF it is to properly enjoy efficiency measures commensurate with other national bodies.
I hope and pray the NPIA have this uppermost in their sights.

[B.U.D.G.I.E]

what the public what is not always what the public get.

1)They asked for more officers on the beat they got PCSO's
2)They ask for crime to be lowered they get a different way of recording crime giving the illusion that its lower.
3)They ask for kids not to hang around on street corners. The kids get moved to the next street.
4)They ask for public reassurance see point 1

At least next year, for a year council tax will not be increased to support some of the above and air support is allowed to continue in the same way it has evolved. Cause once the crims start taking the p*ss again. Number 1 on the list will be Can you please stop stolen cars racing round our estate. At least they have point 1

[Retro Coupe]

..............and air support is allowed to continue in the same way it has evolved.


Er no it wont. As an unprotected Government dept. the Home Office will be subject to budgetry cuts of 25% as of 1st April 2011. Where do Police Authorities get there the bulk of their income from? Yep you've guessed right, the Home Office. I know of several ASU's around the country who are having to tighten their belts through a combination of reduced flying hours, reduced availibilty and reduced staffing. The "Good Old Days" of Air Support are behind us. :sad:

[SilsoeSid]

The "Good Old Days" of Air Support are behind us.

If that's the case, and you could well be correct, then you'll also see a quick emergence of the 'Bad New Days'!

'Cause the savvy badass of today will take the pi$$ quicker than you can say 'Cutbacks' and no matter how you feel about Police Helicopters, you'll wish them back quicker than you can smugly say, 'I was right'.

Be careful of what you wish for, because you may well get it!

[J.A.F.O.]

To clarify my post above, I was imagining what would be possible if you were starting with a blank sheet.

Oh, and TC, if you're going to drop in jokes like Police ops are modern sophisticated commercial organisations run very very efficiently then could you warn me so I don't spit my tea out.

[B.U.D.G.I.E]

There is only one problem with the forthcoming changes to air support. it can be summed up in 4 letters.........

N no
P point
I in
A asking

new broom at number 10 has the right idea....cut their budget :D:D:D

[[email protected]]

TC, keep taking the loyalty pills:)

[heli1]

Interesting discussion and certainly a ause in my eyes to evaluate a national helicopter response system..Police/EMS/inland SAR using a mix of helicopters to cover the country ,but not necessarily all manned.

Why use an EC135 to photo an RTC scene or survey trouble spots when the new generation VTUAVS can do the job out of a back pack and transmit direct to the patrol vehicles ?

Manned helicopters are surely best used for chasing and hunting down the real criminals.

[EjectEject]

Heli1

The UK Police service is experimenting and exploring the use of VTUAV systems, with a few hickups along the way. I for one as my previous post shows, feel that ASU are tasked too many times to RTC that don't really require photographing and the money could be directed to tasking aircraft elsewhere. So, you might think I am very much in support of what you have stated?

I'm not. I can assure you that the VTUAV the Police are currently experimenting with are nowhere near the mark - yet, for use at your example for many many reasons. I have seen them demonstrated both around your example and trying to follow moving objects. I could go on and on about lack of payload, range of system, range of digital downlink transmitter, time to task, staffing availability, post processing of images, quality of image, lack of ability to multitask i.e video and stills at the same time, airspace issues, weather limits. I could go into a detailed why's and why not's, but I won't.

VTUAV will come and find their place in time as CAA legislation changes, systems develop, views change and user requirements are more defined - but its not yet. IMHO.

[timex]

Heli 1, not sure about others but I know that we've very rarely been tasked to take photos of an RTC. The exception has been Major incidents or if we are airborne at the time.

Would you therefore pay to have a UAV with its back up and "crews" on standby as well as the helicopter? You're not saving money just buying another asset with all the additional costs.

[STANDTO]

over here on Fraggle Rock we have found an unique way to overcome the short-sighted lack of air support:)

http://www.gov.im/lib/images/dha/fire/what/aerialappliance.jpg

We just call out the fire service, with one of their two aerial ladder platforms, strap a CSI photographer to it, and Bob is your auntie's live in lover.

The added benefit is the collision investigator can actually go up themselves and ponder to their hearts content, without burning gallons of JetA1. It helps them get a better overview, and there have been times when new marks have been spotted because of the different perspective. Simples!

And it is better than having them sat in the Fire Station waiting for the thankfully rare inferno. And we have two so resilience and 'what if?' doesn't come into it. They are however, £ 500,000 each, so you don't get too many per traded in airframe. And the helmets aren't as cool. :}

[Fortyodd2]

"Why use an EC135 to photo an RTC scene or survey trouble spots when the new generation VTUAVS can do the job out of a back pack and transmit direct to the patrol vehicles ?"
Because their picture quality is currently crap and is a long way short of what is currently produced by the observer with a stills camera.
Because, unless you are prepared to buy more than one, the helicopter will always be there quicker and get the results in the required format quicker.
Because they do not give the operator the full picture - if the operator is focussed on one garden, the scrote hedge hopping 5 gardens up the street will not be seen.

[tigerfish]

Brief pause from sucking my thumb!

The trouble with all these "why dont you" armchair wing commanders is that its usually all theory. Very few have actually flown a Police mission on a bad weather night in Northern Europe.
They are great by day in their R22, but have never actually had to deal with pitch darkness, ATC, Police Control and an over enthusiastic observer before, (all at the same time ).

Serious Police missions rarely happen on a glorious summers day with little or no wind. Oh! and another thing. - We operate under a PAOC a "Police Air Operators Certificate". We are controled and governed by the CAA, who although being one of those bodies that parts of the public love to hate, have kept us very safe in recent years ( When compared with other countries ). We are mandated to twin engined machines so cannot just decide to use singles, its against our laws.

In all the time I have been connected with this black art, I have never been called upon to take overheads of a road accident. UNLESS it was (a) Likely to be a fatal, in which case the Coroner will want pics (b) the accident stemmed fro a particularly bad case of dangerous or Reckless drving where the pictures would assist from an evidential point of view. or (c) There was something particurlarly different or special about this case.

Believe it or not UK Police helicopter crews, both Pilots and Observers are highly trained and very intelligent people. They know how much their activities cost and also appreciate the huge need to save costs. THEY DO NOT LAUNCH for any old reason, they do so in the belief that their presence may help to catch a prisoner, or safeguard the public or (and this is also a serious issue to protect and safeguard their colleagues on the ground). There have been several occasions that I have been involved in, where the arrival of the helicopter overhead with its highly sophisticated cameras prevented a lone officer from getting his head kicked in by a hostile crowd.

Sadly the time is coming when the powers that be, will give that safety role up. I am glad that I will no longer have to take responsibility of picking up the pieces.

Now going back to sitting in the corner and watching all the twaddle from the armchair pilots come in. TC youv'e been there & done it, am I wrong?

Tigerfish

[J.A.F.O.]

TF - I've been doing it long enough to know that we do a lot of things very well and could do some things a bit better.

[B.U.D.G.I.E]

Why use an EC135 to photo an RTC scene or survey trouble spots when the new generation VTUAVS can do the job out of a back pack and transmit direct to the patrol vehicles

Ask merseyside air support...... they had to use their 135 to find the UAV that crashed into the drink..

40 grand gone. Now thats value for money. Police bosses....stop trying to cut corners.:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

and how many scum bags have been trying to damage their forces UAV's......mmmmmmmm er non cause they are no threat to modern day thieving :=

[Lightning_Boy]

Why are people harping on about photo tasks for RTC? I can't remember the last time we launched specifically for a RTC photo request (even code blue). When we have such a request, if we're on a task in the area, we'll tag it to return leg to base, simples....Granted there are occasions when we are told to "go now" for the photo's due to suspicious circ's etc, but certainly nowhere near enough times to justify the cost of an UAV. :ugh:

[Freewheel]

Re: Tigerfish's last post;

If all of the people insisting that nothing must change are so clever, why have you not woken up and heard the hounds at your door?

A little outside the box thinking may see you keeping most of your helicopters, probably all of you keeping your jobs and might even bring an improvement in your equipment, but you're all too closed minded to consider it. :ugh:

[zorab64]

Freewheel & others, Chop / H50 etc (names shortened as appropriate "cuts") - it's not resistance to change, but an understanding from professional aviators (that's what this site is based on after all) that whilst things may not be able to stay the same, there's no easy solution to how to provide the same, or similar, professional & efficient support to the team on the ground.

Organisations around the country, especially publicly funded ones, are all having to take a close look at what they do & how they do it; what their core services are (those they're required to provide by law) and what are the discretionary ones; what does it cost to provide the two types of service; what are the benefits of providing discretionary ones; and are they value for money? The results of these deliberations will result in a reduction of service, whether it be picking up your rubbish once a week, fortnight or month, or operating a Police Helicopter for 800 or 1200 hours per year – although it’s not necessarily the hours that are the real cost, and it’s invariably cheaper, per hour, to fly more than less!

At the end of the day, even if you drew nice theoretical 15, or even 20 (God forbid), minute circles to cover the population with Police Air Support, you’d end up with the centres most of those circles being somewhat displaced from the current bases. Many resulting proposed bases would be in totally unacceptable places (to the public we’re trying to serve); a planning hole-in-the-head such as has never been seen before; and result in re-location expenses which the country couldn’t support or justify. That’s one of the reasons why some people (professionals) on this forum are resistant to change – ‘cos they know the difficulties of simplistic re-location . . . which includes D&C.

The bottom line is that some Police cloth may need to be cut, but the cost-effectiveness of Air Support is regularly demonstrated - ignore the trite jibes about photographing fatal RTCs, most photo jobs area actually tied in with current tasking, not flown specifically. As TC mentioned, most ASUs I know are proud to provide a professional & efficient service – to their colleagues, the public and the taxpayer. They know it’s an expensive resource but also an effective one and, thankfully, the police have signed up to the specialist professional attitude that we all strive for in this demanding environment.

I expect tht all ASUs will be looking inwards to see how they can do the job even more cost-effectively & efficiently - difficult when most run a pretty tight ship anyway and are controlled not by their own criteria, but often ordered (by people with different agenda & budget) to fly on jobs that obvioulsy have minimal chance of success. Sometimes, public re-assurance comes at a price!

Unprofessional jibes from armchair "experts", whilst fine in promoting debate, sometimes become twaddle and debase the whole discussion. If the “questioners” wish to shoot the professional messengers, they just appear similar to the original Pilot Officer Percy Prune, a “clueless clot” commissioned (appropriately) on 1st April 1941, and should therefore accept the regularly issued award of The Most Highly Derogatory Order of the Irremovable Finger – in modern parlance they'd be referred to as a t*at & the order would be a single finger! :mad:

[Freewheel]

A number of posters have sought to deride any opinion suggestive of change as being motivated by jealousy and based in ignorance.

Frankly, this attitude is disgraceful and indicates a lack of a plausible response. There may be an element of truth to the experience of some of these posters, but certainly not all. I doubt anybody is jealous of 3am callouts in poor weather. I've certainly no desire to do any more of that, even though I'm sure I'll do it again soon.

The standard of the current service is not the issue, nor is it's effectiveness. Money is the core and crust of it.

You guys may be running a serious risk here of clinging desperately to everything and being left with nothing.

[B.U.D.G.I.E]

A number of posters have sought to deride any opinion suggestive of change as being motivated by jealousy and based in ignorance.


are you chopchop with another log in.?? :ugh:

The theme running through the thread is that every one is aware that cuts need to be made through out policing. I think the point being made is that air support has come a hell of a long way over the years. Both evolving with aircraft and kit, but more importantly evolving the way its done. With I hate to have to point out very very impressive results. So much so the scum bags are trying very hard (or not so hard ) to damage aircraft.

You cut back on the street and may be put 1 bobby in a car instead of 2. Yeah it will make a hell of a difference and may save some money. But with a helicopter it still costs a lot of money when its on the ground doing nothing.

So if you cut back units hours that will make a difference. You cut a couple of helis and move barriers preventing an aircraft doing work for other forces, well that won't have as much impact as getting rid altogether, or only letting them do say 2 hours a shift.

The wider picture is the crims WILL take the p*ss again like they did back in the good ole joy riding days. Then who they gonna call :*

[chopjock]

BUD
are you chopchop with another log in.?? :ugh:

I don't need to pose as someone else to speak my mind. Nice to know that I'm not the only one that thinks about the other point of view though.:)

[SilsoeSid]

choppy,

While you are here, I was on this mornings long run and wondered, if your single engine operation theory is such a good idea, why haven't the Air Ambulance charities, the SAR/Coastguard, lighthouse, etc operations picked up on them in order to save money, and ultimately their future ?

I see your favoured EC130 can now be added to the stats! :(




p.s Anyone else notice an everchanging number of pages on his thread?

[morris1]

hi..
havent been on the site for some time, and been reading this thread with interest.
Im a Police Air observer of 8yrs and 22yrs in as a cop.

one of the best quotes of this thread is this from tigerfish (i think)

My concern, as I have said so many times is this:- If as a result of the planned restructuring, the jam becomes so thinly spread, then Police aircraft will routinely take more than that vital 20 mins ( And remember that is the outside figure) to getto the scene or where they are needed, and as a result its ability to help will be much reduced. Then at some point in the future someone will say " Just look at what that helicopter is costing, its always too late to do anything so we might as well do away with it all together."

I can absolutely, wholeheartedly agree with this sentiment.
If we end up with 20 minute transit times, then it is pointless turning out to many of the everyday tasks we currently do.
We will be left with the bone firearms jobs (containment) missing persons searches where the ASU box has to be ticked for fear of punititive court cases should a body turn up, and football matches, where normally the area is littered with CCTV cameras..

There are people here who have stated their expertise at running businesses and how they would do it better.. Here is where madness lies, because policing is NOT a business.! It never has been and never will be. Many have tried and many more will, but you cannot put a price on many of the things the police do. The savings to be made, can and will be made from administration. But to apply economics to policing is folly.

What price justice..?
Should the a/c deploy to a shoplifter running from cops
Should it deploy to a missing kid, whose goes missing every week.
Should it photgraph a fatal RTC.. what if those photos help convince a jury about a dangerous driving charge..?
Should we turn out for a misper when we have no information and will never find them.. or are we there to prove where they are NOT... so the search can continue to be concentrated elsewhere..

If it is YOUR son, mother, husband, wife, who is missing, injured or killed in an accident.. What is an acceptable price for justice, safety or locating them.

I always remember as a cop dealing with a fraud, whereby i had recovered a stolen credit card being used. There was clearly a fingerprint on the card which would have identified the culprit. My local detective inspector refused to pay to send the card to forensic science service for examination because his budget was spent for the year, and the fraud was only 500quid..!
Now that is black and white economics..!
but how understanding do you think the owner of the card was when i gave him back his card and told him..!

So without going into full rant.
To those pilots out there looking in, outside the ASU world. Please dont think that the resistance to change is simply people hanging onto shiny toys.
Its because those of us on the inside KNOW that any reduction in capabilities will prevent us from doing the work we do now, to the standard we are capable of. To me it is a policing TOOL, nothing more. One which enables me, as a cop, to do get results in situations whereby otherwise, we wouldnt.

The future reduction in police officer numbers will, im sure be mirrored in ASU, and im sure my job will be civilianised soon. Hopefully by then I will be retired and out of it all.

I will however be proud to be able to say that I served during the best period of time when Police Air Support was at the cutting edge and truly effective in everyday Policing.

[chopjock]

Sid
choppy,

if your single engine operation theory is such a good idea, why haven't the Air Ambulance charities, the SAR/Coastguard, lighthouse, etc operations picked up on them in order to save money, and ultimately their future ?Exactly, why haven't they?
Air Ambulances are a charity and may not be subject to cuts. However I would want to know why they are only operating daytime vfr and yet can afford twins? If they went to singles, more for the same money could be had which would improve cover and quite possibly save more lives.
SAR? I presume if flying all weather and at night, over the sea etc then a twin should of course be used in the interests of saving life.
Lighthouses? I presume Trinity House operations are classed as public transport over the sea? So presumably the campaign has decided it for them, don't know.
The police? Just expensive, over the top toys, paid for by the tax payer and generally not placed in the interests of saving life, but more like to reduce crime at a huge expense.
Something has to give, what would you cut back on? Life saving necessities or expensive OTT toys?
Just my opinion since you asked.

[robin]

Morris1
Your post about the police not being a business I am afraid sums up the poblem with The Police. You are a business, you have to catch crims ( police term) with a certain amount of money. No different to a shop selling a service with a certain budget. If you cant understand that then I am afraid ASU's have no hope. For ASU's to be kept you will have to prove that you are cost effective and running a very tight budget. Lots of things have been said about this subject some are macro and some are micro economics.
The true cost savings will only really come when asu's are run by a central organisation anything else I feel will be less effective

[Coconutty]

morris1 - :D

chop - :rolleyes: :bored:

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[zorab64]

Sorry Chop,
You really do come across as bitter & twisted about something, or possibly it's jealousy, I don't know, but you seem to have a remarkable ability to grab hold of the wrong end of the stick, as far as this thread goes.

As has been pointed out by others too, cuts in most areas of public expenditure are coming, of that there's no doubt. We already know the Police will be part of those cuts, but whether cutting aircraft will lead to anything but a significant reduction in overall service, and certainly public perception, I'm not convinced. As Morris correctly points out, the aircraft is a tool (for definition, see mirror) which is most often used for reducing (often by a country mile) the time taken for ground officers to complete the same task. Pilots, Officers & managers working at ASUs will look closely at everything they do in the interests of continuing to provide an efficient, value-for-money service - just because the helicopter is probably the single most expensive mobile asset any Police Force will own/lease does not, of itself, mean that it should be cut. That is not to say that all units are gold-plated enough for there to be some reductions.

My biggest concern, however, is your fascination with singles, as an alternative. This completely overlooks the law as it currently stands and, as it's very unlikely to change, I strongly suggest you drop it. :ugh:

Adding the other organisations, especially Air Ambulance, into the single equation indicates it's possible that the stick you've grabbed now has the "right" end where it can't see the sun - there's a complete lack of appreciation of where these aircraft have to land, and what the consequences would be in the event of a single engine failure at any stage of flight.

Twins are here to stay for public service aerial work as long as there are lawyers about - get used to it. :ok:

[morris1]

Robin...

Well im afraid to say that Police work has indeed become a business.
And its a sorry a state as a result.

While ever bean counters are in charge of justice then someone is going to get the smelly end of the stick.

Unfortunately its not bean counters, nor (and no disrespect to you, because i dont know you) people like you, that has to explain to the likes of the small shopkeeper who is getting shoplifted day in day out, that the cops arent coming because the thefts dont reach a certain value threshold.
That dont have to explain to relatives why the helicopter isnt coming to search for their granny whose wandered off, because she not been missing long enough.
Or to the householder whose prize golf clubs have been taken from a shed, we wont be attending to their break in, because shed burglary isnt a current priority for that division.

Its people like me, and my Police Officer colleagues... that have to explain to these people that due to the Police "business plan", we wont be helping them..! (and yes my dept, has a civilain staff BUSINESS MANAGER..!!)

:eek:

So yes, you CAN and we ARE running the police as a business.. but its in a s*** state as a result..!
This stuff ive mentioned above isnt made up, this is where we are now..!!!

Ask any member of the public if they would prefer to speak to their local nick when they ring the non-emergency number about the kids up the street causing bother of a night, ......... or would they prefer to speak to the "communcations centre" that covers the entire county (or more) and I can predict what the answer would be..

BUT. it costs less money to have lower trained/capable staff, all in one location answering the phone, than lots of little police stations dotted about with staff/cops that actualy know what theyre doing speaking to local people.

So therefore that must be better, if were doing it cheaper then.. isnt it.?

Im sorry, but the only people, who would ever say policing is a business, know nothing of actual police work. And that includes many "managers" employed by the police. Sadly.

[SilsoeSid]

Thank you choppy for that reply;

Just incase you decide to delete it;
Exactly, why haven't they?
Air Ambulances are a charity and may not be subject to cuts. However I would want to know why they are only operating daytime vfr and yet can afford twins? If they went to singles, more for the same money could be had which would improve cover and quite possibly save more lives.
SAR? I presume if flying all weather and at night, over the sea etc then a twin should of course be used in the interests of saving life.
Lighthouses? I presume Trinity House operations are classed as public transport over the sea? So presumably the campaign has decided it for them, don't know.
The police? Just expensive, over the top toys, paid for by the tax payer and generally not placed in the interests of saving life, but more like to reduce crime at a huge expense.
Something has to give, what would you cut back on? Life saving necessities or expensive OTT toys?
Just my opinion since you asked.

In that you tell us a lot.

Zobra I think has hit the nail on the head. You must have been turned down a few times after applying for a post or three and probably told never to darken some doors again. You probably feel that you are more than qualified to do it, have the right personality, team player etc etc, but cannot understand why you are still looked over.

There is a clear streak of envy in there, along with that basic factor of little knowledge about the job itself. (Which may have been obvious during the interviews!)

[SilsoeSid]

SAR? I presume if flying all weather and at night, over the sea etc then a twin should of course be used in the interests of saving life.

So Air ambulances don't save lives in all/most weathers over inhospitable terrain!
SAR helicopter engines don't know they are over water.

I presume Trinity House operations are classed as public transport over the sea?

Are Trinity house flights public transport? I don't know
Trinity House helicopter engines don't know they are over water.

The police? Just expensive, over the top toys, paid for by the tax payer and generally not placed in the interests of saving life,

Really! What was I doing the other evening and also a few mornings ago?

Ok then, take your air ambulance at night scenario!
Would you;

a. Be happy landing in your EC130 in the middle of a field, in the middle of the night, in the middle of nowhere?
b. Be happy landing an EC135/MD902 in the middle of a field, in the middle of the night, in the middle of nowhere?
c. Would you be happier, granted maybe not 100%, landing an EC135/MD902 with rotating lamps, nitesun, NVG and thermal camera and 3 sets of eyes, in the middle of a field, in the middle of the night, in the middle of nowhere?


I'm sure that not many charities would like to fork out for the extras, such as thermal cameras, goggles, extra lights in order to operate at night. Not forgetting the cost of extra crews!


Sometimes it's worth paying for a public service that has the ability to save lives 24/7 !

[SilsoeSid]

Chopchod, H500 et al, simply plod bashers.

Can't attack the Air Ambulances or SAR units, wouldn't be quite right, so simply go for the cheap shot. All this in the hope that those who have no real idea what a great scope of aid to the general public a Police helicopter actually gives, come on board.

Dare I ask why they haven't mentioned why the 'Mildcat' isn't single-engined. Surely a great saving to be made there in the defence budget!

I look forward to the thread UK Military helicopter budget cuts
I won't be holding my breath.

[jayteeto]

Now that he has moved on to Air Ambulances, I can comment on that one these days. We operate public transport (Cat A/class 1, whatever you want to call it), but have specific exemptions to break the rules on Hems tasks. This exemption is not used lightly. I absolutely 100% would not operate into half my landing sites if I was in a single. The rules are that we don't kill or maim anyone in the event of a single engine failure. Mmmmmmmmmm. :ugh:
Yesterday, I landed on a bowling green in the middle of a town, I was safe throughout the approach and departure using helipad techniques. In a single????? Now I do this type of thing every day at work, a single would be cheaper but also STUPID. I am not stupid and certainly understand the economic situation at the moment. If you are going to do a job, use the right kit or don't bother doing the job. Be it police/SAR or Ambo, the only time you will realise how important it is, is when it is gone.

[chopjock]

Yesterday, I landed on a bowling green in the middle of a town, I was safe throughout the approach and departure using helipad techniques. In a single????? Now I do this type of thing every day at work, a single would be cheaper but also STUPID. I am not stupid and certainly understand the economic situation at the moment. If you are going to do a job, use the right kit or don't bother doing the jobSure, and the other day an ambo landed in broad daylight in the middle of an open field in the countryside. Bit of a waste of a twin really? Being as they don't fly at night and they can have an exemption to land anywhere in the interest of saving life.
Five singles would be better than four twins I think.

[stan bycompass]

Sigh...

Well, Chopjock, the thing about Law, safety and

God, sorry I can't be bothered :ugh:

[chopjock]

Stan
the thing about Law, safety andI don't understand it. The biggest cause of helicopter accidents is pilot error. So what does the campaign do about it? make em use a twin.:rolleyes:

[SilsoeSid]

I don't understand it. The biggest cause of helicopter accidents is pilot error. So what does the campaign do about it? make em use a twin. :rolleyes:

Maybe because they also realise that single engined helicopters are involved in most helicopter accidents.

or a more controversial, yet related to the above answer;

Maybe because if 'the campaign' ensure twin engined helicopters are used for these type of operations, they'll get an adult flying them!
:p

[Floppy Link]

...Being as they don't fly at night...

We do in Scotland! Day/Night, VFR/IFR, flatlands/big scary mountains.

I'm going back to fixed-wing if they try to give me a single.

[Coconutty]

Sorry Floppy - he hasn't suggested using planks to replace Air Ambulances ( Yet ).

Re-arrange the following anagram : Hijack Pact - So Wot ?

( ... and if you do work it out, I refer to Number 3. of the taboo slang definition at FreeDictionary.com ) ;)

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[jayteeto]

Glad he wrote that reply, it was a bit of a come-on from me. If a single landed in a field, then great. So lets have a single for the countryside and a twin for the city. We do both, so two helicopters for us. Brilliant, thats cheap :ok:
I also wrote STUPID in capitals, to emphasise my point. Chopjock, the mods would get upset if I was any more offensive, but stupid will suffice. Exemptions are used in the extreme, every time I use them I ask myself 'Is this really worth it'. What you are suggesting, is flying using a PERMANENT exemption. This is not acceptable.
I will let you into a secret, a lot of charities keep the aircraft funded by accepting patient transfers, often between inner city hospitals. This is public transport and would not be sensible in a single. One accident would kill the practice. Correct me if I'm wrong, but could a single operate into city centre hospitals when it wasn't on a Hems mission? Without this supplementary income, some units would simply not exist. People bite here when you comment, however the press read these forums and could use their influence to misinform the public. This is not a joke where you can wind up some pilots and have a laugh. Police and EMS aviation is a deadly serious and professional activity, we NEED the correct tools for the job. The British Army COULD operate in Afghanistan with Lee Enfield rifles and horses, the RAF COULD use Cessna 152s for training and the Navy COULD use canoes. You really are wrong in what you say.

[chopjock]

jay
You really are wrong in what you say.

Perhaps. But this is a discussion and in a discussion you need to see the other point of view. It works in the USA.
Sure there are places when a twin should be used and there are places when a twin is not necessary. But carrying a spare engine all the time? that's a waste and someone has to pay for it.

[jayteeto]

Actually Chop, your last post was probably one of your most sensible so far and I commend you for it. The word 'perhaps' shows signs of consideration.
You are correct in saying that the system does work in the USA. I have flown privately a bit over there and the sheer size of the area to be covered means that an operator requires a range of machines to do the job. Hospitals and HLSs often are on the outskirts of towns or they have extensive grounds available. Large cities are as densely populated as anything over here. Unfortunately in the UK we are not as blessed with assets and space. We have to make do with a tiny amount of airframes compared to the states. We ask them to do so much more with so little. I flew with the US Coastguard in Miami a few years ago and they had more SAR machines in one base than we have in the UK in total.
This means helicopter units of all persuasions need a machine that can SAFELY (there is where you disagree with most here) do the most difficult task on a long list. A twin IFR cab with all the bells and whistles is not only desirable in the ideal world, it is pretty much essential in the real world.
Lets go on to your suggestions on singles...... We could use singles in the Police/EMS world. Never mind exemptions or rules or sensibility, it would work just fine and dandy until there was one incident. The backlash if a member of the public was killed would be beyond belief. The question would simply be: 'Why did you use a single engined aircraft, when a twin could have prevented this from happening?' Saving money would not be an acceptable answer and heads would roll. I have a family who depend on me being alive, why should I operate a machine day in, day out, that is not as safe because of financial cutbacks. I truly believe, without burying my head in the sand, that authorities either give you the CORRECT tools for the job or don't bother doing the job.
Your last comment on carrying a spare engine can be manipulated to give the answer: You carry the expensive spare engine around for the times it is needed...... simples!

[Mr_G_Box]

Bravo JT2 nice post! Want to come back to the blue and yellow yet? :ok:

[jayteeto]

41 hours last month, no nights/scrotes with lasers and an adoring public. What was the question again????????????? :ok:

[Hughes500]

SS

I am not plod bashing, all I am doing is playing devils advocate with you plod boys. You have to have answers to what people are going to say to you to defend your position. It is no good saying we are brilliant at what we do even if you are. In this day and age where bean counters run everything you have to justify what you do and how you do it and with what. If you go down the blinkered avenue that most speak about it is YOU that will loose to the bean counters. You only need one incident of waste foe the bean counter sto be all over you, even if it is just a rumour. An example for you : Heard on the radio a police call sign going to Birmingham International Airport, a trip of 120 nm, less than 2 hours later going back to base.
Now prey tell me what was this flight for ? No you cant and neither can I, but it sounds like someone being dropped off to go " on holiday" Why else would the force helicopter go more than 100nm from base ( across 4 or 5 different counties) and come back 2 hours later ? This sort of trip is music to a bean counters ears, a good excuse to get in and see what is going on. While a lot of what chopjock has said you may not like it ( with justification) has caused alot of you to justify your positions with some very strong arguments - good for you get the practisce in now
Remember perception and assumption are very dangerous words, just because you assume you are doing a good cost effective job doesnt mean someone else thinks the same way, espically when it comes to losing their budgets.

Like any taxpayer I wish to see my money well spent, I dont have a bottomless pocket to spend on all the whistles and toys. I am sure it would be nice for you guys to go around in Chinooks so you can have a patrol car, landrove,r firearms team, dog team in the back. Obviously that will never happen ( yes I know its not practical ) but the line has to be drawn somewhere.
Keep biting or is that bitching:ok:

[Coconutty]

Heard on the radio a police call sign going to Birmingham International Airport, a trip of 120 nm, less than 2 hours later going back to base.Can you back up your "example" with any more facts that could be commented upon ?

Such as WHICH Call sign and WHEN ?

IF it was a colleague of theirs being dropped off at the airport to go on holiday,
I would be absolutely amazed, shocked and stunned, :eek:
and so would the Tax paying public - if it were true ! :hmm:

I am aware that there are some perfectly legitimate reasons for" Police call signs" from all over the Country
to call in to EGBB, and then depart some time later, perhaps after re-fuelling.

I am not at liberty to discuss what those legitimate reasons might be,
although they would be classed as "Police purposes", and will have
absolutely nothing to do with dropping a mate off to catch a commercial flight.

If you KNOW that what you have suggested is factual, then it is very worrying indeed.

If you're just guessing, then your comments, like many of Chopjock's, have the potenial to misinform the public,
and may ultimately have a negative impact upon the services being provided.

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[timex]

What could you do in 2 hours ?

Pre position for a task?

Carry out some essential maintenance? EC engineers in very short supply so they may have had to go to the nearest engineer.

[morris1]

but it sounds like someone being dropped off to go " on holiday"

well it sounded a reasonable discussion until this..!!!

If you really think your getting a good handle on police ops from the ATC traffic them im afraid your in another world.. and your comment above is just proof of the pudding.

I got b*ll**ed last year for parking a marked police car at a fish and chip shop to collect my lunch, on my way back to the unit from a meeting.. DURING MY LUNCH BREAK.. and it was parked IN THE CAR PARK..
someone busybody decided it was unethical for me to be there and rang in.!!!

professional standards straight on the phone to my gaffer..:mad:


this is the real world my friend.. if you really think police a/c are being used to drop off colleagues to go on holiday, i suggest you save your efforts for the roswell, JFK and 911 conspiracy forums. Your last post, lost you what little credibility you may have had on here.

[SilsoeSid]

Deleted post as I really have lost interest in this one;

You have scraped your barrel with the cheapest of shots this time old chum.

[Hughes500]

IT IS NOT A CHEAP SHOT it is how accountants and bean counters look at areas when saving money. Ever been asked to justify your departments spending to senior management ? Ever had every line of your budget expenses gone through ? Remember the thread was about budget cuts, I have been trying to get you guys to understand how in the big real world bean counters react. I am sorry you cant see it that way, I am trying to help you guys keep your machines your hours and your jobs. Once a bean counter has got his claws into something because he hears on the grapevine something, watch this space. Been there, seen it and done it, it is not nice, espically when you have to tell staff they have lost their jobs.
The " holiday " was an example of how a bean counter gets a perception and an assumption in his mind. Quite frankly I dont really care why the machine went to Birmingham, I am sure there was a perfectly good reason
SS you are quite right time to give up:ugh:

[tigerfish]

Hughes!! For heavens sake get real! There are any number of reasons why a Police Heli might need to go to Birmingham Int, with nothing whatsoever to do with the normal business of the airport. For a start there is another Police unit based there. There could well have been an urgent need to deliver a vital piece of kit or collect or drop off a security orientated load.

No aircraft can use the airfield without first checking in with ATC. In accordance with proper practice, only the briefest of details such as call sign will be given. Do you really expect him to tell the world what he is up to, or the purpose of his visit? But why assume he is doing anything other than a legitimate task? There are many Police tasks done every day that of necessity are not shouted to all in sundry.

I can understand to an extent your desire to play the devils advocate but do get real! I know nothing about the task in question, neither do I care, but I can 100% guarantee you that there would have been a legitimate reason for it. Every unit knows full well that you do not pull a stroke such as you suggest, without it becoming common knowledge very quickly. Any transgressor would be off the unit so quick their feet wouldnt even touch the ground. Please do get real, you might find it common place to pull such a trick in your world, but it does not happen in ours!

We keep full flight logs which are constantly scrutinised in depth. There is no routine patroling carried out in the UK, every flight has to have a stated and logged reason! Your suggestion is just so wide of the mark, that you clearly know nothing about Police Air ops, or the quality of the personnel so involved. I cannot believe you are an adult.

Tigerfish ( Not only grumpy this time but bloody cross too! )

[timex]

Remember the thread was about budget cuts, I have been trying to get you guys to understand how in the big real world bean counters react. I am sorry you cant see it that way, I am trying to help you guys keep your machines your hours and your jobs.

H500, do you really believe that we don't know what it means? Who do you think will be first to join the list of the great unemployed?

I'd suggest that you have a look at the Police bean counters, trust me the ASU's get away with nothing.

[Coconutty]

Dear oh Dear....

Once a bean counter has got his claws into something because he hears on the grapevine something, watch this space.So why do you start off a whole bloody vineyard - by suggesting the improper use of the Police helicopter,
with NOTHING to back up what you said, other than idle speculation, borne out of a total lack of underdstanding
and appreciation of what has been said by all those that DO know what they are talking :confused:

.. and then still have the gall to say :

I am trying to help you guys keep your machines your hours and your jobs.

I don't think that kind of "help" is at all helpful ! :yuk: :yuk: :yuk:

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[SilsoeSid]

I really have lost interest in this one;

Apart from to say that I hope no bean counters ask why I found myself in Manchester a few months ago.

I'd have to spoil the party and tell them that it was because after a few local garden and rooftop searches, we ended up on a 110 mile pursuit. When it was all over I had to go in for fuel as I didn't have enough to get back to base. Of course I wouldn't mention having to have a debrief, brew, biscuits, put the world to rights and plan the trip back while I was there.

I think that puts you in the picture about what goes on sometimes Hughsey.
:ok:

[Retro Coupe]

But carrying a spare engine all the time? that's a waste and someone has to pay for it.Describing it as a spare engine gives the impression that it's surplus to requirements. I've been flying twins for 18 years and always considered them invincible, that is until I had an engine failure in one while carrying out a helipad departure. Outcome? Rejected back into the area I'd just departed without injury to aircraft occupants, members of the public nearby and no damage to the aircraft. Singles aren't an option for the sort of work your average Air Support Unit or Air Ambulance carry out. If you go through life thinking the worst is never going to happen, one day you'll be in for a nasty surprise.
I'm well aware that singles are cheaper to run than twins, but if you want to do any job properly you need the right tools. Under the current legislation operating a single in this country would severely restrict activities in built up areas and at night and would result in an inaffective aerial deterent to crime. If the government of this country are serious about reducing crime, they need to realise that the proper funding needs to be put in place to not only sustain the Air Support infrastructure we have at the moment, but also to allow for upgrades as new technology becomes available.

[What Limits]

I just can't imagine the CAA rescinding the requirement for multi-engine helicopters on Police and HEMS Ops for some bean-counter

[Coconutty]

Still waiting for information as to who the "guilty" party was
( whenever it was, if it happened at all ), the only clue is :
... a trip of 120 nm ...No indication as to whether the flight started from their base or elsewhere,
so lets brighten things up a bit with a picture to speculate over :

120 nm radius from Birmingham International Airport ( EGBB / BHX ).

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/EGBB120NM1.jpg

( Looks like Devon & Cornwall are out of the running ;) :} )

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[20Minuter]

Lincs are in the clear from the beancounter death ring as don't have one. H500 - come on, we are all waiting for the info - unless of course, you made it all up. :=

[Fortyodd2]

"Lincs are in the clear from the beancounter death ring"
Actually no - under the National Plan, all forces will be top sliced for Air Support and all forces will have it available to them - including Lincs, North Yorkshire and Cumbria. But then, Cumbria never have any jobs where on call air support would be useful - do they?

[Coconutty]

I thought Lincs already had Air Support "available to them" ?

Granted not their own Unit, - but AFAIK available either from Humberside,
or even East Midlands - if needed of course ;)

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[20Minuter]

Fortyodd2

I was referring humorously to the issue H500 had thrown in the melting pot under the current setup. We still await his reply over the 120 nm trip and two hour stop over ring of bean counter to tell us who he is accusing :ok:

[Retro Coupe]

But then, Cumbria never have any jobs where on call air support would be useful - do they?

I think a lunatic in a car with a couple of guns randomly picking off members of the public might tick that particular box.:ooh:

[chopjock]

We still await his reply over the 120 nm trip and two hour stop over ring of bean counter to tell us who he is accusing

Well Middlemoor is 122.5nm from EGBB. that could be a clue. :ok:

[20Minuter]

Still waiting - ho hum :zzz:

[Coconutty]

... You still here ?

It could also be someone that hasn't got a "clue" just trying to stir things up ( again ) - Yawn, Bored, ZZZZZzzzzzz

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[SilsoeSid]

There's going to be so much egg on Chodjocks face!
:D

[SilsoeSid]

chodHeard on the radio a police call sign going to Birmingham International Airport, a trip of 120 nm, less than 2 hours later going back to base.

chodWell Middlemoor is 122.5nm from EGBB. that could be a clue.:ok:



So that rules out them then!
:ugh:

[SilsoeSid]

Keep digging :ok:

good thing is, thanks to the pm system, everyone knows apart from chodjock!

[morris1]

For no other reason than devils advocate..
To illustrate the numbers involved with police budgets..
and picking notts police for no other reason than it was the first i found the stats for

Notts police
Total budget for 2009-2010 207million pounds
wages 175 million pounds
premises 7 million pounds
equipment and furniture 1.3 million pounds
stationary 8 hundred thousand pounds
"miscellanious expenses" 5 million pounds..


anyone hazard a guess what their share of the north mids ASU is..??
I genuinely dont know,, wonder how it compares with above..!

source of the above
Nottinghamshire Police Authority (http://www.nottinghamshire.police.uk/npa/uploads/budget_book_200910_final.htm)

[morris1]

reference the above...

Im just wondering how the stationary budget compares to the ASU budget..!!

[ShyTorque]

stationary 8 hundred thousand pounds
"miscellanious expenses" 5 million pounds..

If those two sentences were a "cut and paste" from the official website, they need to spend more on spelling lessons. :oh:

[Coconutty]

Never mind the Stationary Budget - How much does it cost to move around ?? :ok:
( Oh come on - Someone had to - It's too hot to get me coat though :p )

Nottinghamshire Police are joint owners of G-NMID,
an EC135 operating out of Derbyshire's HQ at Ripley.

Notts will probably contribute a percentage of the annual operating costs,
proportionate to the amount of hours flown on their force area.

( ... and their UEO bears a passing resemblence to Fabio Capello :E )

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[20Minuter]

The stationery budget is more. I can assure you. As stated above, the costs are shared. Fabio Capello - never crossed my mind before now. Thats made me smile.

[Fortyodd2]

Morris1
Fact: FY2009/10, Nottinghamshire Police spent more on new tunics than they did on Air Support - Source - FOI Request.

[ShyTorque]

( ... and their UEO bears a passing resemblence to Fabio Capello )

Yeh, but Capello speaks better English, whyayman!

[morris1]

Yes. Forgive the spelling. I was in a rush. !!
Anyway.
I really did pick Notts at random, and the point was simply to illustrate to those out there who believe that the police are spending extravagantly on their a/c, that in reality, the budget for paper clips and pens is probably as big, if not bigger.!

Be interesting to see some actual ASU budgets versus other costs from other forces. !

[Fortyodd2]

"Be interesting to see some actual ASU budgets versus other costs"
No - you'd only get upset!

[morris1]

robin wrote.....

Your post about the police not being a business I am afraid sums up the poblem with The Police. You are a business, you have to catch crims with a certain amount of money. No different to a shop selling a service with a certain budget.

todays news....
a police officer carrying out a static patrol on a roundabout in East Denton, Newcastle was approached by an armed man and shot.

anyone else think policing is just like a business..??

I dont think Tesco staff get targetted simply because they wear a Tesco badge..!

Hope they dont run out of money before this one is stopped.....

[B.U.D.G.I.E]

well it seems that hughy has gone all pooy and decided not to grace us all with his presence after that utter disgrace of a post. :mad: All we can hope for now is that choppy learns some lessons and does one as well.

So I take it CRM is out of the window now then. Safety last eh hughy......a transiting aircraft that may have got into pants weather or a chip light for example. Is now not allowed to land because its a waste of money. Lets hope you never ever need the police for any thing ever:mad:

[B.U.D.G.I.E]

Seems the current events are showing that air support can't be done away with. Thoughts go out to those affected.

[chopjock]

Seems the current events are showing that air support can't be done away with.

I don't think this topic is about "doing away" with air support, just cutting back on wasteful practices. I'm just waiting for when D & C order a new EC 155 to chase those off road bikers on Dartmoor in broad daylight.

[Bertie Thruster]

Chop, do you still use Windows 95?

[PANews]

The on-going search operations in Northumbria [formerly overseen by the North East consortium with two helicopters until some bean counter declared there was no need for two] are displaying mutual aid at its best [if not solving things particularly fast in this instance].... but it is noteworthy that one BBC commentator was heard to say.... 'two helicopters over the scene'.:ok:

Wonder where the other one came from ..... [answers not required]:D

Shades of Barry Prudom in Lincolnshire and Yorkshire [1982] and Michael Ryan at Hungerford [1987] but at least they were 5 years apart.... its only weeks since the last major shooting on the west coast and that is not a good sign.

[Fly_For_Fun]

Chopchod, you really do make me laugh. I can only assume that you log in and post only after more beers than I could manage. Keep it up. :D

[EESDL]

ouch - extensive manhunt with fewer regulars means huge overtime bill - roll on summer holidays!

[SilsoeSid]

Anyone else notice the fixed winged assets are conspicuous by their absence?

[[email protected]]

It wasn't a police Tornado they were using then?:)

[B.U.D.G.I.E]

sid......i think thats the idea.

Crab....single engine version just to keep choppy happy :)

[tigerfish]

Nah! Still be too noisy! But Ive just thought of something that might keep Chopsy and Hughsy (Ant & Dec ) happy. Do you remember "Little Nelli" the Ken Wallace Autogyro, that 007 used to beat all his enemies? Little Nellie even had rockets.

True,- no room for an observer, No Cameras, no flir, no moving map, GPS TCAS or anything else for that matter but at least it would keep ant & Dec happy.

How about it?

Tigerfish

[J.A.F.O.]

Tigerfish, now you're starting to think laterally and, as for the observer, Wg Cdr Wallis still has a couple of two seaters that are airworthy.

[Fly_For_Fun]

His museum is well worth a visit, and such a nice chap.

[Fortyodd2]

He is indeed a nice chap - but, whilst there are some well proven, quiet and capable Autogyros with good endurance, there are no Autogyros allowed to operate at night over built up areas.

[DeltaNg]

That's what CAA Dispensations are for :}

[Coconutty]

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/BrummyAirSupport.jpg

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[ATP_Al]

With regard to the fixed wing assets, it looks like Hampshire ASU have suffered, apparently that line pilot position that was advertised in Flight last month has been withdrawn due to lack of funding.

[PANews]

That is still a slight improvement on the position of around a year ago.... then plans were to shut down the unit altogether.

The connections with 'future police air support' via the Chief Constable and ACPO were too strong to allow the shut down of the unit so a niche was found for it in the big plan but clearly not enough money in the Hampshire pot to magic funding for the pilot.....

Perhaps ACPO could sub the pilot position from their recently acquired :Omillions?

[Thud_and_Blunder]

So prob no change from the days when I had the privilege of providing floater cover for both the Dorset and Wilts a/c then - we used to keep the map-books for Hants handy as we were often over covering for the non-appearance of their asset. Same used to go for Devon - often used to pop into my home county from outside to provide 'mutual support' (ie the BK was offline again).

[volrider]

I fear that in the one region somewhere not near the coast Air Support will be reduced by either cutting back on hours and sadly crews or worse still scrapping an air unit, odd though that the sh1ts do not seem to be included in the cutbacks in fact I fear they will thrive as they do not have to worry about going to the 4 star prisons anymore:mad:

[B.U.D.G.I.E]

Good point...are the scum bags laying off staff from there little crime groups, or cutting back hours so they can only steal stuff between midnight and 4am.

That would really help. Maybe the government should apply those strict cuts to them. Oh and take all the tele's out of prison cells.:ok:

[SilsoeSid]

Just heard on the news that one force, due to possible county boundary changes may lose a city. Massive savings there :ok:

Unfortunately the number of officers that presently cover this city, is more than the number of officers in the county force that will take the city over. :eek:

Be careful for what you wish for....you may get it.
Every silver lining has a cloud.
etc

[20Minuter]

Sid

Is that Cov going back to Warwickshire? :ok:

[oscardog177]

It looks like the Hampshire plank is being axed and air support for Hampshire will be provided by Surrey and Sussex.

[B.U.D.G.I.E]

and the worst is yet to come :eek:

[serf]

Surrey, Sussex and Hants to share 2 aircraft; Odiham and Shoreham based.

[J.A.F.O.]

And I dare say that's the first of many similar announcements which we'll see over the remainder of 2010 and into 2011.

[helodpe]

I left Police ASU around 5 years ago after 10 years in HEMS and Police. Frankly, I feel a lot of Police units should simply produce a cardboard cut out of their helicopters, sit this on the helipad and put the dozen or so cops involved back out on the beat. My last year on the unit I could count on one hand the amount of useful jobs we got!

[Coconutty]

Perhaps a more pragmatic and pro-active approach would have provided you with some 'sport' !

If you REALLY had a maximum of 5 useful tasks to deploy on in a whole year,
then either the Police Force in question have done a FANTASTIC Crime Prevention Job ( yeah right :rolleyes: ),
or "someone" at your Unit hasn't done a very good job of either educating the Police Officers
that you were there to support - to make the best use of the asset,
or the staff at the ASU are a bunch of lazy b******s that can't be arsed to seek out suitable tasks to deploy on .....

Frankly, I just don't believe the figures you are quoting - maybe it's for the best that you left. :ooh:

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[What Limits]

In contrast my ASU deployed around 1500 times a year and they were ALL useful. Yes, we were pragmatic and proactive but we sometimes had to accept that we were there for more than just results.

We put several missions down to 'Public Reassurance' and 'Police Reassurance' for all the right reasons.

[SilsoeSid]

helodpe;
I left Police ASU around 5 years ago after 10 years in HEMS and Police. Frankly, I feel a lot of Police units should simply produce a cardboard cut out of their helicopters, sit this on the helipad and put the dozen or so cops involved back out on the beat. My last year on the unit I could count on one hand the amount of useful jobs we got!

helodpe has 5 other posts;
1. (Profile location Glasgow), however the only other comment on this site that is at all relevant is about US HEMS Ops! Which looking at this thread title, probably isn't.
2. (Profile location Glasgow) "I used to work for an Enstrom dealer in the States as a mechanic."
3. (Profile location Glasgow), asks question about Las Vegas based company.
4. Trying to sell a 'Raven 1'.
5. Answers question and refers to to Russian company.


Doesn't really seem the sort of person to be 'qualified' to have such a rant on this thread about UK Police Helicopters.

Definition of 'useful jobs' please.

Anyhoo, I suspect that his/her last year on the unit was probably one of the longest 'planning for retirement periods' known, I bet the unit couldn't wait to get rid of him/her. Most people leave it til within the last 6 months to get in all their leave, a bit of sick etc, but maybe this chap/chappess found sitting around batting tasks and reducing the good reputation of the unit a lot more entertaining. I bet the days and nights flew by for those crewed with him/her!

As he/she was probably a senior member of that unit, which I very much doubt was with the UK Police, I would have thought that he/she would have been in a position to ensure the unit was operating efficiently. I wonder if the unit is doing more useful jobs now that this character has left.

A bitter person who, a little birdie tells me, was pushed rather than fell. :p

[SilsoeSid]

I can count on more than one hand the 'useful jobs' we have had in the last 10 hours!

[SilsoeSid]

...and another 'handful of useful jobs' in the last 40 minutes!

[Fly_For_Fun]

Silsoe, you need a break mate. :ok:

[Coconutty]

With all that work - no doubt he does need a break now and then :p

Talking of budgetary cutbacks ( weren't we ? ) -
Do the Civvy pilots get PAID to take their breaks ? :rolleyes:

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[wallsend]

What's the latest news on cuts (if any) to police air support in England and Wales?

[jayteeto]

What breaks would they be? 12 hour shift = 12 hours on. If you are eating or drinking, you put it down and run....... well, walk fast

[PANews]

Wallsend

Latest to go is Hampshire fixed wing... to be replaced by Surrey aand Sussex helicopters... although there is some doubt as to whether Sussex will continue beyond the end of contract on their MD902.

There is a report out there that suggests only a total of 9 rotary airframes are required in the medium term... but that maybe over pestimistic and the thoughts of one meeting in May rather than something that will happen.

Then there is the missing Home Office Police Aviation Advisor. Ah but then I cannot advertise!

[20Minuter]

And why do you class the HOPAA as missing?

[Coconutty]

... Not to mention the NPIA - Aren't the Government doing away with Qango's ? :rolleyes:

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[wallsend]

Thanks PAN!

[Coconutty]

Hey PAN -
We know how you love to keep us in suspense, especially when you think you have a "first" or "exclusive",
but are you going to enlighten about what's happened to O.D. or do we have to wait for the ( overdue ) August Issue to be published ??

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[Ivor E Tower]

PAN

I know it,s a rumour network but where do you get the "although there is some doubt as to whether Sussex will continue beyond the end of contract on their MD902." information from?

What contract do they have re the MD902

[PANews]

Coconutty

Its there [and it was there when you asked for it] probably suffering from your PC thinking it wasn't there.... Yes it was a few hours late... but some of us have a life to live. Went live Monday pm.

Ivor, yes to be pedantic bad choice of words... but the flavour goes with the apparent state of confusion reigning everywhere at the moment. One of the many many rumours is that Surrey and Sussex join together but that the Sussex h/c drops off at some stage [when a suitable moment appears] - and you can take your choice from many that might be dreamed up.

If this far from mythical 'nine helicopters' is acheived it would suggest that every rotary airframe that does not fit the chosen/preferred type [and I would suggest the EC135 is the most likely beast to be preferred now that the replacement aircraft purchase contracts are stalled] is deleted as they run out of steam/airframe life/economic operation/contract [delete to taste].

Yes its opinion but so is pprune.

[206Fan]

I see the PSNI have received the new EC145.

[Thomas coupling]

PAN: what's happened to OD ????

Cough it up!

[Coconutty]

Thanks PAN - Cleared my cache and there it was - hope you don't mind me quoting :

It looks as if the new government’s plans to wipe away a layer of consultants [and therefore save money] have resulted in one of the planners of the future for UK police air support being deleted. At the end of last month E-mails to Ollie Dismore the Home Office Police Aviation Advisor and the public face of joined up UK police aviation for many years announced he had ‘gone’ from the scene. It may be an accident of birth.
The Home Office Police Aviation Advisor is a long standing secure salaried post at the Home Office and the major link between all the parties since the days when there was no air support.
More recently the post drifted from the Home Office and joined the NPIA – the National Police Improvement Agency - a recent creation that was certainly built on dodgy foundations and is likely to find itself disassembled or put down in the ongoing cuts. Created from some very worthy Home Office Departments NPIA has turned out to be a rest home for unemployed chief officers of police and the wage bill is truly massive. One by-product fault seems to be that in being set up some pretty key people including Ollie Dismore were turned into ‘consultants’ and lost their salaried status.
So for now the post of Aviation Advisor to the Home Office and NPIA is at best suspended and the role of sorting out the future rests on the shoulders of Simon Newman at the NPIA and Richard Watson of Kent Police.PAN August 2010

Wonder what will happen to the plans for a National Police Air Support Unit now ? - or even some of the smaller Regional Units that were starting up in preparation for it :confused:

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[PANews]

Glad you got your cache sorted out.... it catches me out at times and I am forever calling my Webmaster and asking 'Where is it?' to be told...'There Wally!'... [and I pay this man!] ..... so I know the feeling!! I may work over a 7 day cycle but he does not so issues are either early or late when the 1st falls on a weekend.

In fairness I have no doubt that OD will survive well enough financially - he has his piloting ability quite intact although there are few jobs in the far far west - but it just shows what a shambles is taking place.

Individually no one is the best man for the job or irreplacable but I think that unreplaced OD was a required element and that it was he that had his hand on many aspects of the job in hand that the remaining two will not have. Like the Aerospace bits for a start.

Sorry to you others for keeping you waiting for the OD story.... it was not just hype.... although others have been known to flout them the rules say I cannot advertise and my handle is near enough to the knuckle!!!

[bolkow]

Davy 07, apart from toeir new ec145 what is the other rotary that they operate? Do you know?

[PANews]

They have a EC135 and still have an old AS355 that will go shortly back off lease. The 135 was not nearly enough since the army pulled out.

Dangerous stuff.

[206Fan]

The 355 is leased from wales if I'm correct?

The way things are going here we will need the army back in.

[PANews]

Yes it is the old S&EW aircraft from Veritair.

As for the army I think they are busy right now....

perhaps someone in the Province :( noticed....

[PANews]

Fresh in my inbox this morning is the news that Ollie is back.

The HO PAA remains a dead duck but he now has a similar job with a much narrower remit and his 'old' NPIA E-mail and phone have been reactivated again. Different employer but similar task it seems.

It is a short term contract under the banner of the National Police Air Service (NPAS) Project to continue work on the national service.:ok:

[EjectEject]

The country is bankrupt and any public sector organisation is going to have to make cuts, regardless of who they are. Sadly, Police ASU's are going to be affected.:(

[cat up a tree]

I would rather have more cops on the ground dealing with the main problem in the UK right now...anti social behaviour..

The best value revue which was carried out by the North East consortium prior to Northumbria kicking Cleveland out of NEASU in 2009, proved that their was no requirement for 2 aircraft based at airports 40 miles apart.

Why spend £2 million on Each Unit every year, to do a job one aircraft could easily do?

Lets see more cops on the street in Cleveland which is the smallest county in the UK, when there is already an aircraft 15 minutes away in Newcastle, and another one 20 mins away in W.Yorks.

£2 million every year would pay for a lot more land sharks (dog section vans) Just a thought.....

[ShyTorque]

As predicted some years ago, someone made their career proving that air support saved the police money.

Now someone else will make a career out of proving that the opposite is true....... :hmm:

[heliski22]

2 million a year doesn't go far on the ground.........

By the time you factor in annual leave, sick leave, court appearances, and suchlike, it takes 5 people to maintain 1 24-hour position - one on early, one on late, one on nights, one resting, and so on.

2 mill at 30k per person is 66 people - divided by 5 is 13.

So for 2mill, you get 13 more police officers on the ground at any one time across the constabulary area, not just one city or town within it.

I've no idea what the rate of pay for a police officer is, so if it's more or less than 30k, just re-do the maths yourself.

The US philosphy on air support going way back was always on the basis of the aircraft being a "force multiplier".

I don't think we've heard many reports of patrol cars being burned and local crime rates going up afterwards, have we?

[cat up a tree]

I think £2million every year would put a lot more CPSO's or Constables on the ground which is what is needed.

The £6 million cost of a new aircraft which is about to be spent to replace Clevelands EC 135 would pay for even more officers on the ground in Cleveland, not to mention the ten already sat in their warm air support office at MME.

You can drive through Smoggy as its known in ten minutes north to south on the A19, so air support isnt really needed in such a small urban county.

Anti social problems are the biggest problem in Cleveland, and the local council keep rolling out the ex 'Robocop Mayor' every week to say how things are going to improve, but he's not going to take a paycut either!

Time to use air support aircraft in the north east more wisely.
Not just sat around at MME for days at a time..it doesnt take a bean counter to realise whats needed and whats not. :ok:

[jayteeto]

Why do you say that you don't need air support because you can drive through and area in 10 minutes? (You can't - legally) Why not say that you don't need air support because Hartlepool has 2 McDonalds drive throughs. In other words - Tosh!!
Why would searches for people bailed from cars, missing from homes, trackers, covering firearms incidents, drugs raids etc etc etc have absolutely ANYTHING to do with how long it takes to cover the A19.........
Merseyside is a small area and the helicopter is an effective force multiplier. Its up for the chop too (allegedly), all this shows is; a lack of understanding of what the helicopter is capable of.

[cat up a tree]

Tosh..wasnt he on the Bill or was it Z cars?
As you will know having worked with the agreed passenger chaps before seeing what the seagulls were like off to the west. Mispers are usually found at their mates, and kids are always under the bed or at a friends.

Firearms usually dont want you close to a job due to the noise footprint, especially if a negotiation is taking place. Drugs hmm they are all wise up in smogland to seeing the noisey helicopter in the sky, and any raid can easily have all bases covered I'm afraid knowing how the job works from the ground. It does look good for the tv cameras though!

Back onto the point of the budget and were I think Cleveland should spend its £6 million air support bill for the next year.

Dennis O'Connor the recent author of a report from HMI stated even he had to move house due to anti social behaviour (yesterdays Sunday Mail), and there were over 3.5 million calls reporting this type of behaviour in the last year in the UK alone.

Looks to me as though we already have aircraft nearby which can cover the Cleveland area, so why not put the money back into the streets were it is needed.

I'm afraid the days of flying the flag with a helicopter arent going to impress any of the local hoodies at the shops causing havoc.
Say hello to Tosh when you see him, as I never go to see the monkey in Hartlepool ;)

[J.A.F.O.]

Cat

We were trying to have a discussion here, would you mind awfully just sodding off.

[PANews]

I too would dearly love to see more boots on the street, but quality comes into it and I would vote that in the main air support members are keen and efficient - even though they go against my pet hate..... 'form a squad' It is the 'squad' that has created much of the shortage... to many experts sitting around waiting to use their special skill and not enough all rounder injuns.

Just how often are there REAL instances where you need armed officers? Yes you can create them with Heath & Safety, but it is inefficient to have so many of them sitting around waiting for something to shoot at.

For your limited budget you can put another dozen plastic cops on the beat for £25,000 a time but they are useless and go round in packs that cost as much as £75,000 a time to police one spot only to have them have to summon a £30,000 'real' bobby to sort out the mess they are unqualified to deal with. It is simple mathematics but obviously beyond the bean counters.

The numbers of employed police are up in real terms but diluted by poor quality and that is not primarily the fault of air support.

[cat up a tree]

And who made you king or is it queen? :confused:

The discussion is about national air support, if there are too many units in a small area such as Cleveland, why not use the neighbouring aircraft in that area to give the public a better and cheaper service?

The Northumbrian and Durham forces both saw the benefit of reducing the NEASU consortium to one aircraft.
It may have been a better idea to base the sole aircraft centrally in Durham but Cleveland wouldnt entertain the thought?
The gravy train days are over, and forces are having to look at which problems are a priority I believe.

Isnt Hampshire joining Sussex, why not the north east to save my taxes?
The largest county in the UK North Yorkshire doesnt have there own air support and gets by, surely they should have one if they need one?

Or is this discussion just your private party? :=

[tigerfish]

Cat,

You are talking a load of uninformed rubbish! I have done well over 30 years on the streets and by the late 80's we were being rubbished by the yobbo's who had seized the advantage. I suspect that you are too young and green behind the ears to remember the days of ram raiding and joy riding which made a mockery of the concept of law and order. The introduction of Police air support put the initiative back with us! Sadly it is the newbies like you that are likely to bring all that success to naught.

I fully recognise that the current state of near bankruptcy of this country makes savings essential, but have you never heard of the old adage of not throwing baby out with the bath water?

Dangerous attitudes like yours need careful response so I will refrain from leaping into print tonight (00.50) and I will wait untill I can give a more considered response. Sadly it is the shallow and unrefined attitude such as yours which has brought the service to such a sorry crossroads.

Tigerfish

[ShyTorque]

the days of ram raiding and joy riding which made a mockery of the concept of law and order. The introduction of Police air support put the initiative back with us! Sadly it is the newbies like you that are likely to bring all that success to naught.

I totally agree. Properly managed, the arrival of a police helicopter allows the ground units to switch off their blue lights and the whole game slows down, to the benefit of public safety. In fact it's not unknown for the errant driver to park the vehicle and walk away, only to be nabbed shortly afterwards.

The days of high speed vehicle pursuits will easily return. Some traffic departments have already been disbanded, so it will be up to less specialised units to take up the chase.

Having said this, a properly organised national air support organisation should allow economies of scale. Unfortunately, to work properly this will require initial investment, rather than cuts. I don't imagine the former will happen in this economic climate, so like every other public service in this country over the last decade, efficiency and cover will suffer. Hap'orth of tar and all that.

[jayteeto]

I only used Tosh because 'B##llocks is frowned upon here. I'm sure the Bill or Z Cars didn't have a character called that you patronising idiot.
You claim to be in 'the know' and decide where the helicopter doesn't need to be at an incident because.............. x/y/z
I can't even be bothered to explain why your explanations were very wrong suffice to say they were. :ugh:

[PANews]

Underlining the thread that Tigerfish brought to the table.... police air support was created 40 years ago to fill a need, it wasn't just created as a toy.

The ex-cops in their 60s will understand that need because they were there and operated under what was not there before as well as what came with air support. It started as daytime only and moved into the night to fill a very real need. It was not just a whim.

The safety umbrella and that new sense of security that air support brought stands in danger of being watered down on the grounds of efficiency.

Working in the city streets you have dozens, if not hundreds, of potential back up officers within a mile of you; in the countryside areas currently under threat [Sussex/Wiltshire/N Yorkshire etc] they may be soft and tranquil in daylight but alone in the pitch dark and many miles from the nearest back up I can promise you that 15 minutes is a long long time to wait for a helicopter and you can quadruple that if you are waiting for a ground vehicle.

This is about officer safety and although the new strategy will bring a measure of best value there is a danger that it will go beyond that.

[airpolice]

This is part of a wider problem, not just affecting Air Support but the general way that crime is handled.

Whether or not we have an aircraft at a minute or an hour away, the offenders know there will be little or no impact on them of being caught. They will be back out stealing cars again tomorrow, and on that basis, Air Support is no use as a crime fighting tool, but essential for officer safety.

I have been on two jobs on the same evening for the same offenders (OLP to a school) and on the third call of the shift, the cop i/c ASU declined to attend as the custody Sgt. would not agree to keep the offenders overnight if we went back out to get them caught again.

What's the point of catching people to let them go?

Most crime is committed by a small group of people, well known to local officers. Detaining them all weekend and immediate, long term prison sentences on Monday morning will work, anything else is pissing in the wind.

This is a Magistrate issue, not a police issue.

I read a report recently from HMIC suggesting that the Police need to reclaim the streets, that may be true but they can’t hold the streets unless they get some support from the Court system.

Prison works: I don’t give a **** about rehabilitation, I just want the ****ers locked up so they can’t re offend. Bad guys don’t steal cars/ mug old folk/ break into houses when they are in jail.

Why not cut the budget for air support, just make sure the bobby on the ground can stay in a car or hide indoors. Let’s use the money to build more custody cells and prevent the chases by keeping folk off the streets.

Old farts like me remember when getting caught meant the end of a crime spree, now it is just an interlude.

[cat up a tree]

Post deleted

cat up a tree,

Your attempts to out the identity and history of other Rotorheads will not be allowed.

First and only warning :=

Senior Pilot

[Coconutty]

The safety umbrella and that new sense of security that air support brought stands in danger of being watered down on the grounds of efficiency. Got to disagree there - or do you mean "being completely done away with on the grounds of saving money "!

The cuts ARE coming - but is the real reason to make Air Support "more efficient", or is it simply to try and save money because the Police budgets are being cut by the Government, along with all the other hardships being imposed on the Country by this Government, who are blaming the last one ?


This is about officer safety and although the new strategy will bring a measure of best value there is a danger that it will go beyond that.Will it ? - Are you sure ? - How is this Best Value being measured ?

We shall have to wait another 3 weeks for the various proposals to be published, but speculating in the meantime, I would imagine that a number of proposals will be offered - one or more of them being so outrageous that it will make the other(s) seem attractive by comparison - EVEN IF the end result is that there are fewer aircraft available for deployment - which we all know IS going to happen :hmm:

Best Value ??? - No doubt someone high up the bean counting ladder will set the rules about how to measure this, and sure - there may some £££'s saved over the next few years, but what about the MILLIONS of £££'s that various Forces have invested in new aircraft, staff, premises etc, on the grounds of being cost efficient ( for all the reasons previously given ), that will be WASTED if they have their aircraft / ASU effectively taken from them ?

It will all boil down to Chief Constables having to make difficult decisions about how to apply the budget restraints being imposed upon them.
Some CC's ( and Police Authorities ) who value the true worth of their ASU's may fight to keep their assetts ( remember the farce over Polce Forces merging ? ), while others may decide to cut the level of Air Support in their force to save money.
Sadly some CC's will be advised on the subject by others who may not necessarily fully understand all of the implications, or the actual benefits of the Air Support that they are about to lose.

3 weeks - and counting .........:ooh:

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[cat up a tree]

:confused: Ok here goes again, I do think there is a need for air support but Cleveland should use the aircaft next door, after all Durhams LA's aircraft already travels to Darlington next to Teesside Airport when a job comes in.

Stingers made the difference in car chases when they were introduced, Cleveland doesnt have many car chases due to them all being stung these days. The little darlings are moving into drugs, and car security has improved and its not just a case of black boxing an old astra anymore.

Durham and Cleveland have just joined their firearms and traffic departments, so why not pay for LA'S air support when it is actually required?

Spend the Cleveland £6 Million due to be spent on more ground troops, which is what is needed, and use the other aircraft in the north east.
Its what North Yorkshire do at present, and then spend the Cleveland money to combat the main problem anti social behaviour.

:ok:

[PANews]

Coconutty

I think I agree with everything you said in your last post.

I was trying to be positive in those highlighted bits you extracted but maybe too positive. The bean counters never stood completely alone in Epping Forest at 2am and if they had that would slant their opinion somewhat from where they are at now.

Hopefully the cuts will just go towards spreading the margarine thinly everywhere and providing spare craft in house from the 'unwanted' airframes. There are areas with 'too much' or 'overkill' but getting the perfect balance is near impossible when local opinons are involved.

It seems pointless harping on about Cleveland Cat.... that was a decision made by those that paid for air support and it will undoubtedly change in the future under the new system. They did it for what they saw as the right reasons and they thought they could justify it. Getting a mention on Pprune does not dissolve that justification [or change a thing]!

[cat up a tree]

Cocunuty a very good point, and Pan you have hit the nail on the head.
:D

[STANDTO]

on a dark and stormy night, when you are single crewed in a traffic car, and you have spotted a stolen car, or one with a marker on because it is full of wanted bad people, and it has taken off like a spooked cat, the most comforting thing of all is being bathed in light from a Nitesun, coming off the throttle ten per cent, and knowing that things have just become a whole lot safer. Someone above you now has the big picture, and can start to pull resources together to bring that pursuit to a safe and effective close, through a number of tactical resolutions.

When Air support goes in the name of budget cuts, and deaths through incidents go up, and Coroners start saying 'if air support had been in place this wouldn't have happened', the true value will again be recognised.

My current role is all about developing an 'Organisational memory'. Too often in the police service, we forget why we did something in the first place, and how much better it got. The lessons from history are there. If we let it go now, then the problems will return - just faster and more sophisticated than they were in the eighties and nineties, leaving another mountain to climb to overcome them.

[jayteeto]

Wow, I didn't realise that Clevland hardly has any car chases any more because of Stinger. Anyone in the know can tell us just how few car chases there are these days because of Stinger?

[Coconutty]

STANDTO, Good points, well made !

I know of a force near me (oh alright then it was West Midlands ) that went from 20 Hrs a day to 24 hrs a day cover back in the 90's, because of all the early morning ( e.g. 0400 / 0500 Hrs ) Ram Raids that used to take place after the a/c had been hangared.

They tried tinkering with their hours first by finishing later, and guess what? The criminals ( who aren't actually as stupid these days as a lot of people might think ), waited the extra hour, or whatever, until they had confirmed the Police helicopter had been put to bed, and then carried on with their plundering :ugh:

This eventually resulted in the move to 24 Hr ops, and the number of these early morning raids decreased, together with some successful deployments resulting in arrests being made.

These days "some" would argue that it is not cost effective to have 24 Hr cover, as there are fewer Ram Raids in the early hours of the morning.

Can you guess what might happen if a decision were consequently made to go back to only 20 Hrs cover a day - "Saving" ( :yuk: ) around 20% of the staffing and operating costs :confused:


.... Is that the new lightweight Stinger that can be carried around by all those extra Police Officers that are being freed up to patrol around on foot on their own ?

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[jayteeto]

I do like to read into 'statistics' in my spare time. I see that having an aircraft 15 min away in Newcastle and 20 min away in Yorkshire is an option. Actually, that would work if the force found it acceptable. Anyone in the know up there can tell me what the average length of time is of a vehicle pursuit, sorry, what the average length of time of one of the hardly ever vehicle pursuits is in Cleveland?
Seriously though.... One good thing about centralising air support would be a single force could not withhold their asset from another force even though it was on a less important task. Coconutty has it right with his ram-raid story, people forget easily. Cat up a tree also has some genuine valid points, I'm sure there are better ways of doing business. A word of warning though Mr Cat, if you quote things as true that are blindingly obvious not true, people will ignore you. The reason a lot of your suggestions may happen is because we will have to accept a REDUCED service to SAVE MONEY, not because they are outdated and invalid. Lets call a shovel a shovel, not a manual excavating tool.

[Fly_For_Fun]

I thought a stinger was a ground to air weapon, not ground to ground. Shows what I know!:confused:

Never trust a Mail reader, has trouble differentiating between right and wrong. IMHO.

[tigerfish]

After the rather ridiculous comments by Cat and some others I thought that it might help if I tried to add a more measured dimension to what on occasions can become a very emotive subject.

If what I have heard today is correct then the forthcoming changes to UK police aviation will be more severe and damaging to the service than anything previously discussed.

I would go as far as to say that the concept of UK Police aviation, as built up by the Police Service itself over 25 years, (granted with the aid of a number of dedicted professional advisors) probably led the world by about 2004. Almost the entire country was covered by the 33 aircraft operating from 27 bases. The aircraft themselves were of two main types (with one exception). There was commonality in equipment, training and operational practises. All units co-operated closely together in respect of intelligence and also covered for each other during periods of maintenance. Our Pilots were first class, very often from a military background and completely at home whilst conducting 24 hour coverage in the face of some of the most difficult weather in Northern Europe. Our safety record was and remains exemplary. Whilst the aircraft themselves were independantly owned by the forces themselves in effect they were almost indistinquishable from a National Police Air wing.

What we lacked however was a mature National Strategy and the economies of scale which National and or Regional operations might have offered. There were many of us who looked forward to the evolution of a National Police Air Wing as the way of bringing even greater operational efficiency to our art.

So why was the development of Police Aviation so important? For that you need to go back to the 1980's and early 90's. Many of our young people, brought up on a diet of such wonderful TV programmes as the "Dukes of Hazard" and the "A Team" were getting their kicks from stealing cars, - joy riding! The Police with a duty to try and catch the criminals were nightly becoming more and more involved in extended vehicle pursuits. It was bloody dangerous! For everyone, the criminal, the public, and ourselves!

Before very long the PC brigade stepped in and complained that we were being unkind to those well meaning but misunderstood young thieves and the instruction was given to abort chases. I learnt very early on that you should never be kind to criminals! To them, kindness is weakness, and weakness is to be exploited! So, knowing that we wouldn't chase them, joy riding got even worse. Then there was Ram Raiding, and muggings to supplement the income. Finally, when we did start pursuits again we discovered that we had now become the target. It worked like this, - we came up behind a stolen Vehicle; on went the two's & blues, and wonder against wonder, the target pulled over & stopped. they were apparently giving in! We got out to arrest etc, but suddenly the reversing lights came on and the S/V came back hard into the front of our vehicle pushing the fan through the radiator. We lost loads of vehicles to that tactic.

We were fighting a nightly war out there against the yobbo, and we weren't winning! Then came along air support, which rapidly put the initiative back with us -The early Bolkows and twin Squirrels that came into service in the 80's soon got on top of the vehicle pursuits and the ram raiding and the situation improved even more in the 90's with the introduction of the Thermal image camera together with the second generation helicopters which were quieter and cheaper to operate.

The advent of Police Air support rapidly reduced "ram raiding" to a mere fraction of what it once was, but more importantly It markedly reduced the danger to everyone of "vehicle pursuits". Before air support they were often very extended in duration, causing extreme danger to everyone. But once air support became the norm they were very much reduced. The Helicopter or fixed wing above,- remained in contact with the criminal, but allowed following vehicles to drop back thus reducing pressure on the criminal to do something stupid. But even more importantly,- as the criminal came to realise that once the aircraft was overhead their escape chances were gone, they got rid of the vehicle quickly. As soon as they realised they had been spotted they calculated that they had a maximum of about 5 minutes before the A/C was above & they were as good as in the bag! Pursuits became much less common.

We quickly learned one very important lesson; and today we ignore it at our peril. It is quite simply that the secret of success of the Police helicopter is in its speed of arrival! We found that there existed something called the 15 minute rule, some call it 20 minutes but the cold hard facts are that unless the aircraft can be overhead the scene within that time then its eventual use is markedly reduced.

Sadly one lesson we didn't understand was the need to keep telling every one just how effective we were in the fight against crime. We allowed ourselves to become just another element in the Police arsenal, and I submit that today we are now reaping the cost of our failure to constantly remind people of our effectiveness. It seems today that practically the only ones who do respect just how effective we are are the "Heavy criminals" who now regularly try to destroy Police aircraft.

They shouldnt worry, for that job is now being done by the Luddites who are intent on destroying what has been achieved in the panic to save money.

I do appreciate what strong critism that allegation is, but let look at it. I believe that the current target is 23 aircraft operating from 20 base's. That means that when you take into account reductions in availability caused by maintenance, the jam is going to be spread very thin. The rural areas will suffer badly. Huge tracts of the country will effectively have no air support at all. - But of course I forgot, rural communities do not pay taxes etc, do they? How many police officers in trouble alone on rural patrol will suffer assaults because there is no air cover to support them?

Crime never happens in rural areas does it! Hungerford? Cumbria?

We all understand that our near bankrupt country, must make savings, and that air support cannot be unaffected, but what is happening is just plain wrong! The team tasked with bringing all this about were clearly given the instruction, "This is the Answer, - Save huge amounts of money, now go away and come up with a report that does that". How many experienced air support Police officers formed that team? Remember we are talking about POLICE AIR SUPPORT. Just how much input have Police officers had in shaping the future of what after all is POLICE AVIATION ?

The problem is that what exists now, and admittedly it had some errors, evolved over 25 years in the face of crime and in the face of need. Now it seems that it is to be neutered, with little understanding that once the criminal realises that the rural areas are unprotected, it will be open house! The luddites will have torn down the units that covered those areas and what existed and worked well before, cannot just be rebuilt in days, it will take years.

It is very sad that a service that England once had reason to be proud of is to be so reduced, and in such a way that the way back will be very hard.

Tigerfish.

Not in anger but in sorrow.

[Fortyodd2]

Nail, Head, Direct Hit! :D:D:D:D
Sadly, you are right. My only hope is that there are sufficient numbers of REAL Police Air Operators at Ryton in 3 weeks time to prevent a total disaster.
Once it's gone it will never be back.

[J.A.F.O.]

Tigerfish, thank you for a very comprehensive and considered post.

Sadly one lesson we didn't understand was the need to keep telling every one just how effective we were in the fight against crime.

I sincerely hope that they aren't about to find out the hard way.

[Gas Generator]

Well put Tigerfish. Unfortunately the death of Police Air Operations is just on the horizon. Sadly, as we know from history it will eventually be resurrected once the level of crime increases again and the public get fed up with ram raids etc. But that will be very expensive and very late. This is going to be music to the ears of many professional criminal gangs, it's christmas......

The Air Operations review was started under Labour but it will be the Conservatives, and Theresa May that will reap the rewards of increasing crime and the public backlash. This from the party of Law and Order. The necessity for this restructuring is purely political and not driven by practicality. Air operations is already at a more advanced stage of cooperation both regionally and nationally than arguably any other police structure.

Tigerfish is quite right, if you really wanted to structure a National helicopter force then a senior officer with an air operations background or at least his or her advisors to have this background is essential. It essential to have an understanding of WHY Police Air Operations are so successful in their present guise and structure - TIME.

Air Operations all hinge on TIME. The most successful of ASU's operate AUTONOMOUSLY. They have a full bank of radios and command terminals and the air observer makes that immediate decision to attend. It is that ability to respond that makes air operations so successful. Take that away and it is dead. You put in place a regional or national command structure and you introduce time delays which means - you will always be getting in the air LATE - which means you will not be successful. A slow death.

In any national structure you will need spare aircraft, you will need them for training, checks, trials and for replacing u/s and aircraft in maintenance. This new structure will not be able to survive by making do with a neighbouring aircraft taking over the area. Pilots will need OPC's and observers will need training and checks also, stretch an asset too thinly and the success rate will drop dramatically. That will lead to a lot of pressure on the local Chief Constable from the public and from this new police authority replacement - 'the people's champion'....

Tigerfish was also correct that police air operations have not publicised the successes well. They are extremely successful in finding missing persons or searching large areas that do not then need to be searched by foot. A police helicopter saves a huge amount of public money by not diverting officers to search parties. Are we now at the stage where Chief Constables are going to tell the public that they are not going to search for missing people, because they have no helicopter and they cannot afford to take officers off the beat?

The police helicopter has an enviable success rate from convictions in court. Every time a criminal is caught with the helicopter involved, that tape from the helicopter goes to court and inevitably the criminal pleads guilty to stop the court seeing the evidence - it is an extremely successful police air operations story. Because the observer makes the decision to get airborne - they get there in TIME.

The deterrent value of the helicopter cannot be over stated. For many years that was always an argument from those that questioned the value of air operations, the aircrews knew they were a deterrent but could not prove it on paper - they can now. Criminals do not like air operations because they get caught by them and have now decided to 'take out' the helicopter. How many attacks in two years? If only they would have waited for the police to restructure and do the job for them......

The only small disagreement I have with Tigerfish is that they do not have a purely support role. A lot of the time the helicopter is first on scene and requires officers on the ground to support it - it is Air Operations.

I believe the most telling indicator coming up is the timing of the announcement of the new structure and the conference of Chief Pilot's and UEO's. If you were in charge of this restructuring would you not have that conference BEFORE you announce what the new structure is going to be like? I guess they are all going to be told to get on with it.

RIP Air Operations.

[Fly_For_Fun]

Here here, tigerfish. I sincerely hope the powers that be are reading and taking note of what you have so eloquently said, however I fear that the writing is on the wall. :(

[Retro Coupe]

I believe the most telling indicator coming up is the timing of the announcement of the new structure and the conference of Chief Pilot's and UEO's. If you were in charge of this restructuring would you not have that conference BEFORE you announce what the new structure is going to be like? I guess they are all going to be told to get on with it.

Correct. There's to be a Chief Officers Council meeting on 14th October where I believe the heads of each constabulary will find out who has kept and who has lost their aircraft, and then Industry wil be notified on 18th October. The National Air Support Symposium a few days later is where UEO's, DUEO's and Chief pilots will then be required to make the chosen system work.

The proposed reduction from 33 helicopters to 23 with 3 spares is going to generate some very heated debate, which will take a lot more than the proposed 3 days of the symposium to sort out.

[tigerfish]

In the two days since I first penned my "Considered Response" I have given the subject even more thought.

Gas Generator is quite right and I had ignored the very important factor of crime prevention an area in which the air operations unit is a key element. In the early 90's when I was building up my forces air operations capability, we were essentially a part time unit. We had a couple of months on, followed by several months off etc. After a while our stolen vehicle graph and similar records for street crime & vandalism, mirrored our activities exactly. The criminal feared us, because the likelehood of being caught increased dramatically when we were about. Units today deliberately fly over high crime area's to discourage the criminal activity.

The public worry quite rightly that the police in their cars have become remote from them. Strangely enough this criticism is not aimed so much at the helicopter. I was giving a talk on air support recently when someone complained about the noise. - Before I could reply 3 or 4 elderly people leapt up saying that they didnt care about the noise, because it meant that they knew that we were about,- looking after them. They felt safer at night as a result of our presence! Cars do not have that effect!

I glossed over too, the element of officer safety. in those days we were suffering a disturbing level of assaults on Patrol officers, especially during periods of public disorder. The rapid appearence of the helicopter overhead together with the knowledge that it carried camera's capable of identifying the culprits, quickly surpressed that trend. We deliberately flew our Police Federation representatives on many such missions, and they rapidly became strong supporters.

Finally there is the element of Command and Control that the airborne platform can provide. The overview provided by the aircraft to Bronze & Silver commanders can often be essential. I quote a comment by one of my late Chiefs, who said to me long after his retirement: " I fear for the service today, they have managers for this, managers for that, everyones a manager - Who the bloody hell's leading" ? Very True!

What is needed now is strong leadership, - BY Police Officers. The trouble is that many of the new generation of ACPO have never experienced policing without air support, they just don't appreciate what it will be like.

These cuts, which we all know are coming, MUST only be done in such a way that when the folly of it all is realised, we can resurrect the status quo.

Tigerfish

[Helinut]

It isn't too late for someone to write the study that would draw together all the factors that show the value of air operations....... A small group of those involved could develop something reasonably quickly. It might not be perfect but it would be better than what we have now (i.e. nothing except the old HO study on searching for missing persons).

[ShyTorque]

It isn't too late for someone to write the study that would draw together all the factors that show the value of air operations....... A small group of those involved could develop something reasonably quickly. It might not be perfect but it would be better than what we have now (i.e. nothing except the old HO study on searching for missing persons).

Drag out the old police / home office files used to justify getting air support only a few years back?

[J.A.F.O.]

It isn't too late for someone to write the study that would draw together all the factors that show the value of air operations.

Yes, it is.

[B.U.D.G.I.E]

what may be a bit late is getting air support back to where it is today after the cuts have happened.
But we will see what happens. Sadly those in the know are correct in the predicting the outcome. ( a riot)

[Fortyodd2]

Budgie, as I have already said in an earlier post - once it is gone, it will never be back to anything like the level of service we enjoy now. The problems include that the likes of Tigerfish and Gas Generator were not part of the decision making progress for the "National" decision. The "National" set up is 10 years too late already and we all have to take some of the responsibility for that but the biggest slice of the blame must go to the Chief Constables for their lack of leadership and vision and their very parochial view of policing - "it's mine and I'm holding on to it". Cross border Ops, mutual support and nearest aircraft attending should have been adopted years ago. The PEUG showed the way with instigating bulk purchasing but it was too late in the day.
If our unit is one of those to close, I have urged our UEO to ground the aircraft for at least 24 hours. For the sake of flight safety, regardless of how professional our crews are, there is no way I want them taking to the skies with that news ringing in their ears. :sad::sad::sad:

[PANews]

Shy Torque....

Lots of ancient paper files [my loft creaks with their weight] but the further back you go the less they apreciated the high quality beast we have under threat today. Most talk about American activities - and now it is the officers of the USA that aspire to copy the UK.

History teaches a lot but it is todays practitioners that have the answers at their finger tips. If they can find someone who will listen. Unfortunately it is the bean counters with their flimsy promises of reduced costs that have the ear of those that control the future.

[B.U.D.G.I.E]

"it's mine and I'm holding on to it". Cross border Ops, mutual support and nearest aircraft attending should have been adopted years ago.

spot on and had it been we may not be in such a bad spot today with the sudden reduction and in some cases shutting over night. :ok:

[ShyTorque]

Cross border Ops, mutual support and nearest aircraft attending should have been adopted years ago.

Perhaps things got worse after my time but at the unit I flew for, almost a decade ago, we did all of those things. We also on occasions provided cover for an adjacent county with no air support of its own. Once we began a job in the adjacent county, we finished it, irrespective of "shouts" from our own control room.

The old files
Shy Torque....

Lots of ancient paper files [my loft creaks with their weight] but the further back you go the less they apreciated the high quality beast we have under threat today. Most talk about American activities - and now it is the officers of the USA that aspire to copy the UK.

No, I was referring to the business case(s) written by the police forces themselves. I know they exist, I helped contribute to some of them, especially the ones regarding direct employment of pilots.

[handysnaks]

On a different tack...

As the forces have no option other than to find savings, as their budgets are going to be reduced. If Air Support stays as it is, what should go in it's place?

[airpolice]

The Chief having a car and driver. Let him use public transport or get a divisional car to take him places, or better still, let him drive himself! In an Astra not a Merc. Let's get the accident investigators into £11,000 Astra Vans instead of £35,000 T5 Volvos.

Stop chasing Gender/Ethnic targets and just pick the best of the people who apply.

Bin loads of the overpaid "IT professionals" in the HQ buildings. Stop interdepartmental charging and budgets, just let cops do police work.

Get rid of the Marketing Managers that some forces have, WTF is that all about?

Get off the war on Drugs, and fight the war on crime.

Druggies are not the problem, criminals are the problem. Nobody outside the police cares if the crime is drug related, the victim certainly isn't f'ing interested.

Instead of raiding people for selling drugs, lets jail people for stealing cars to get the money to buy drugs, or to joy ride or to get money for two weeks in Florida, just lock them up for housebreaking or stealing cars, never mind why they are doing it.

As for being more cost effective rather than just being cheaper, if the Government really wanted that as a result, they would be geting rid of the wishy washy arseholes on the benches who let people out on bail and early release.

For the lucky few still serving in an ASU, look at your jobs over the last year and for those jobs that you can get disposal details on, work out how much it cost to catch a guy who got a slap on the wrist and ask yourself if it would not have been better all round to not use an EC135 to chase him, just pay the complainer's insurance excess and get on with life.


If the justice system (not the police service) is going to let society down by failing to detain and punish the bad guys, why do the public need to suffer the double blow of having to pay so much for it not to be done?


C'mon, be honest, I know you do a great job, but is it really worth doing, when the rest of the process is incomplete? That's what makes the ASU world piss poor value for money. Not the money you spend, but the lack of results from having spent it.

[PANews]

There seem to have been general police budget cuts every year.... but I suspect that they have not been too deep more a paper exercise in many cases. Locally Essex police are talking about shutting down police stations in a number of locations. In the past these shut downs have been police houses in remote villages but, because they have run out of those, now the cuts are being mooted for the stations in towns [including my old nick - how dare they!]

As ever I do wonder whether they have the right idea. As with air support the real cost is people not helicopters and removing readily identifiable cop shops = retreating in some eyes. Some will deduce that the cops are leaving so its free time. Locally even with the station house manned by one person but occupied by a few transient others the building represents a 'real and present' police presence. As commented above, police in a cheaper car are still a presence... every blue and yellow looking helicopter represents a potential police threat because plane spotting is not necessarily high on the criminals agenda.

Here there is talk of going to open an office in the fire station, that might work if they pull down the ancient cop shop otherwise it represents a retreat. That is dire PR.

Which brings us back to cost cutting by decreasing people.

I know we keep slamming the plastic cops, and perhaps always have done, but Blunkett's idea plain does not work. They are undertrained, risk averse and usually wander around in pairs only to have to call a real cop to sort out anything they uncover. Having two £24,000pa PCSO's in the same spot cannot be as economic as having one £35,000 full article - especially when it takes 2x £24,000 + £35,000 [totalling lots!] to get the skill set in place. Cull the untrained and save money and then if that is not enough come back to culling the bits that are front linre.

If you read the write up on the recent shooting dead by police of a gentleman in London [hanging out of a window with a shotgun] you may wonder at the numbers. UK police are unarmed and yet this incident reportedly attracted over 50 authorised firearms officers [and a helicopter] to contain the scene. If this was one event... just how many AFO's are there out there and how many on the Met ASU?

[zorab64]

There's certainly merit in considering a merging of this with the National Air Support thread - because that's where this is all leading, and not before time in many people's opinion.

Whatever happens, many Senior Officers have already seen the (£££) results of working in close harmony with other forces; and they'll all have done so in couple of weeks time and will no-doubt want some of the savings the statistics will convince them are available. That some reductions in numbers of units will happen (efficiencies, in bean-counter terms), is almost beyond doubt - as has been intimated by others.

What will be interesting is how they will fund the significant capital required to re-locate the remaining units to adequately (or less than adequately to many on this thread) cover the country. I'd suggest it's highly likely that a compromise will be attempted which (being slightly less expensive, but likely to be highly controversial around the areas to which they are moved) will result in a similar (but different) hotch-potch of coverage to that which already exists.
As has been reasonably identified by Tigerfish, Cocconutty, ShyTq, Gas Gen & others (not Cat!), there's potential for a thinning of Police Airborne service provision overall, and possibly more in the rural areas.

And, taken from the National Air Support thread, why can't Police ASUs do the BTP job as well? If there's decent coverage of Air Support country-wide, each unit should be able to add that task to their portfolio, further helping to justify the resource and reduce overall public expenditure?

Air Support is unlikely to be immune from the cuts that are coming, but there's a huge potential for it going off half-cock, with almost no chance of reversion. If the effectiveness of arriving at an appropriate task in a sensible timescale (15-20 mins max, as mentioned by Tigerfish) is not recognised, there'll be tears before too long, IMHO :ugh:

[props stopped]

My first post on pprune after watching from the side lines for the last twenty five years.

For the record I was involved in air support in the north east for many years from its consortium inception in 1995.

Changes were made last year to try and save two of the forces money, but a third consortium force decided to go it alone with the old 135 which made it very expensive for them with the latest contracts to cover airframe problems, and another for PBH engines.

I now see that same old 135 stood gathering cobwebs most days and nights from my window, and have been informed that there is a new shiney 135 due to arrive with all the bells and whistles required for full IFR flying.

I was one of the older chaps who took my redundancy to go back to plank flying but its certainly a slow life at the Teesside end of police flying.

Looking at the movement figures the Teesside 135, it doesnt seem to move for days? I would say a more productive option would be to use the northern 135 which was proposed last year, as it does relocate to closer HLS points if required.

Lets hope all those pilots who have a quiet life at the moment get other jobs when the upcoming cuts are made from the new government.
There is life after air support. Good luck chaps.

[Coconutty]

Police Air Support has always been justified on the grounds that it was cost EFFECTIVE, saving time (and therefore money) in terms of Man hours (sorry "Police Officer Hours"), compared with trying to achieve the same result on the ground without Air Support.

If the number of aircraft across the country are going to be cut, or if flying hours budgets are going to be reduced, or if the time taken to respond is increased such the the task becomes unviable, and therefore HAS to be carried out by Officers on the ground, without Air Support, then surely the overall Policing costs will actually RISE ? (The reverse arguement of why Air Support is cost effective).

Or more likely, the task will be completed less efficiently - IF AT ALL, in other words - a reduction in overall Policing service.

2 weeks - and counting ....

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[B.U.D.G.I.E]

I'm sure the PM would be a bit psssssssst if there had been a security breach this week. So in years to come where are all the police and i'm sure air support, going to come from if they cut things as much as they are expected to.:ugh:

[timex]

My first post on PPRuNe after watching from the side lines for the last twenty five years.

For the record I was involved in air support in the north east for many years from its consortium inception in 1995.

Changes were made last year to try and save two of the forces money, but a third consortium force decided to go it alone with the old 135 which made it very expensive for them with the latest contracts to cover airframe problems, and another for PBH engines.


I now see that same old 135 stood gathering cobwebs most days and nights from my window, and have been informed that there is a new shiney 135 due to arrive with all the bells and whistles required for full IFR flying.

I was one of the older chaps who took my redundancy to go back to plank flying but its certainly a slow life at the Teesside end of police flying.

Looking at the movement figures the Teesside 135, it doesnt seem to move for days? I would say a more productive option would be to use the northern 135 which was proposed last year, as it does relocate to closer HLS points if required.

Teeside are a bit less active, but they now delve into N Yorks and are also available to cover for the Newcastle guys when their A/C is away on servicing. Lets not forget that they also helped out quite a bit with the Moat job.

Lets hope all those pilots who have a quiet life at the moment get other jobs when the upcoming cuts are made from the new government.
There is life after air support. Good luck chaps.


Mutual Support?

[serf]

How many pilot jobs would go with the loss of 10 aircraft/units? I would guess that those pilots employed by the likes of Premiair would have some chance of being redeployed within the company whereas being directly employed by a force that merges/shares/is chopped would mean looking elsewhere.

The Scottish police are looking to merge a number of forces, although at the moment only 1 has a helicopter, perhaps another unit north of the border?

[Coconutty]

.... As it's all about the cost ( savings ) is it more likely that
the Air Support Units up for the big axe, will be those with Contracted pilots ?

AFAIK Police forces pay a lot more for contracted pilotage,
than the forces who directly employ their own pilots :ooh:

... and like you say, at least within Bond / Premiair / PAS etc,
it may be more likely that the pilots could be re-deployed within the Company,
coupled with the fact that getting rid of directly employed pilots might cost MORE,
especially if there were any Redundancy payments to be made :eek: ?

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[PANews]

Serf

I believe you will find that there is no direct effect on Scotland in this review so spreading the resources more thinly will not result in an improvement in number north of the border.

The police in Scotland and Northern Ireland are not under the Home Office.

[morris1]

Many thanks to the well-informed professionals on this forum who have provided informed, well rounded input onto this discussion.

The topic is indeed POLICE aviation. Tigerfish has provided many of the relevant points that sadly the people at NPAS are not considering.

Personally, as a Police Officer air observer of more than ten years, and a cop for 22yrs, I find ill-informed comments such as
The largest county in the UK North Yorkshire doesnt have there own air support and gets by,


To be quite insulting.
There is a reason N Yorks have never had an aircraft. DEMOGRAPHICS...!
Add to this the cosy arrangment they have with SAR over the years for missing person searches, and you can see why they never bothered.
(but ask W. Yorks and Humbs how many times they go there at N. Yorks request..!)

But the overall thing I see on rotorheads, time and time again, is pilots outside the Police Aviation world, throwing in their tenpenneth from the other side of the fence, in the assumption that we have been to**ing it off for the last 15 years.!

Perish the thought that we actualy know what we are doing...!!

Frankly we are good at we do. We use skills honed over many years of local policing, and apply that to policing from the air.

Borderless tasking, and transiting 30 minutes to an incident are all well and good. But as tigerfish has already stated, 15 minutes and most spontaneous jobs are dead. Yeah we can still do firearms jobs, missing person searches, public order jobs and protracted jobs like the Raul Moat thing. But the chances of dropping on a pursuit are NIL ..!! yes NIL..!! On the odd chance that you fly over a pursuit while crossing 3 counties to a task, the comms issues will make sure you never get to know about it. (that happens NOW).

So the jobs where your nearby and a cop has one running from a car, a shoplifter fleeing a store, burglar/prowler disturbed, intruders on being watched by security, the car just stolen from a burglary leaving at speed, where the a/c is VERY VERY effective, are now a thing of the past.
No aircraft is going to justify travelling 2 counties to these jobs, and those that will be wasting their time. And as for cops on the ground being better at dealing with ASB..?? RUBBISH.... time and again the yoofs on the street will just leg it from the cops as soon as the cops turn the corner. We go to lots of jobs where gangs are giving the beat lads the run around. With us on top we easily let the cops on the ground actually feel some collars.

It is indeed the end of Police Air Support.
The name "National POLICE AIR SUPPORT" proposed for the national unit, is an insult to those Officers that have spent the last ten years building the skills and experience to get us to where we are now. Yes, individual police forces will get an a/c when they want for one. But only for the "ticky box jobs".

Finally: To those that have said a national unit was long wanting..
WRONG...
Yes we couldve pushed to consolidate admin, procurement, communications, and some other items. But thats the same across all of the police service.
(oh yes, and the fire service, the ambulance service, the civil service, the NHS, the post office, network rail, BT, Vodaphone...... )

Im a local officer, and I have a good idea where a fleeing car will be going, where the fuel thieves are taking diesel from trucks, where the metal thieves are intruding on, where the drug dealers are dealing from, and where the local travellers are dropping stolen gear. And im always on the lookout while we're out flying.
This is what we will lose with a national unit. Let the public be under no illusion that they are getting a MUCH inferior product.
RIP

[PANews]

Morris1

The trouble is that you, like Tigerfish and myself are out of the loop.

You no longer count. Mainly because those that making these decisions have never been where you were before you got your seat in the sky.

And, to a degree because there has been a lack of talking between you and your kind globally.

But that is my bandwagon!

[Fly_For_Fun]

One thing that has struck me is that if a National Air Support thing does go ahead, and it will, then all the pilots and observers will come under the same organisation I presume. With that in mind, no matter what units are closed down and helicopters are lost, the pilots and observers, from the closed down units, will not necessarily stay in post as the organisation will have a pool of people to choose from. I suppose that will mean that all the pilots will have to reapply for their jobs and the observers will have to reapply for their deployment into the specialist roles they now hold. I wish them all a lot of luck...they will need it!

[B.U.D.G.I.E]

I suppose that will mean that all the pilots will have to reapply for their jobs and the observers will have to reapply for their deployment into the specialist roles they now hold. I wish them all a lot of luck...they will need it!

true and what makes it worse you will be interviewed by some muppet from HR (which is the most incompetent unit with in the police service) who has only ever seen chopper coppers and never been anywhere near an air support unit.......arrr the way forward :ugh::ugh:

[timex]

Won't it depend on which Company gets the contract for Pilotage, and wether or not they can afford to pay off the guys in situ?

[handysnaks]

I think the aim is that the observers will still come from the forces that 'make up' the local region. So one imagines that some observers from units that 'disappear' will (if travel arrangements permit and their respective forces agree), become part of the unit that covers their force area. Depending on numbers, this may mean that some observers in air units that remain may have to return to normal police duties. However, until the full plans have been hashed out this is all speculation. With regard to the pilots, I don't think there is a set plan yet. It may well be that a contract is awarded to a company that does not yet have a presence in the police aviation market. I am sure that there will be a number of players out there trying to persuade the powers, that be that they can run a complete turnkey pilot solution for a cheaper price than full direct employment would be. However, it may be that they directly employ all of the pilots and I suppose it's not beyond the realms of possibility that they could vary the employment method from region to region. Whatever happens I don't suppose it matters much whether one is directly employed or contracted at the moment. We're all in the same boat! Don't be surprised it the only ones who are 'permanent staff' in this final organisation are the unit managers and the 'head office' staff.

[morris1]

Yes. I cant see anyone being "safe"..!
The units not being scrapped will surely not be moved lock stock and barrel, overnight to NPAS..!
With so many jobs/posts being lost, they can easily cream off the best staff by selection/interview.
Standby to apply for your own job..!

[Lokon]

If this becomes a National Air Support, does it mean that those that are left (Pilots, Engineers and Observers) will be employed by NPAS/NPIA.
No one mentions how this National fleet will be maintained and operated, will they build one big hangar and set up as a 145 maintenance company or will it still be contracted out to the PAS's, Bonds and Eurocopters etc?

[Coconutty]

Don't be surprised it the only ones who are 'permanent staff' in this final organisation are the unit managers and the 'head office' staff.

God help them !

1 week to go ......

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[Art of flight]

Might be worth a looking at the the eastern Counties Air Consortium for some of the possible answers....
The Essex, Cambs and Suffolk bases are a consortium that provides air cover to the 3 host counties and to Kent (via the Essex EC135) and also to Norfolk on a pay per flying hour basis when the Norfolk ac is not on duty. Until 3 years ago the pilotage was provided by AOM on a contract to the three forces and the engineering by outside sources under contract.
Since then the PAOC holder (Essex) has employed 6 civilians to undertake all maintenance of the 3 ac as the 'Eastern Counties Police Maintenance' company which is funded by the 3 forces. The employees are directly employed by Essex Police. This provides resilience throughout the region and a good degree of forward planning and cover for sheduled maintenance.
The 12 pilots are also directly employed by Essex Police, 3 regulars at each unit (2 line pilots, 1 senior pilot) , 1 full time floater, a chief pilot/ floater and a part-time floater. The floaters provide a leave/sickness cover with very little need for any outside help. The regular pilots are also mainly dual trained and routinely operate at any of the consortiums bases. This means that when an aircraft is in for maintenance that units pilots are redeployed to cover leave/absence at the other 2 bases, thus providing greater resilience and value for money. The Air Observers are returned to other frontline Police units for the duration apart from a few days of recurrent training so there is very little wastage of man hours.

In my opinion this is a pretty good template for regional Air Support and perhaps at National level.

Of course this has worked well in times of plenty but may still offer something valuable even with less ac and crew in the new era of austerity.

As for employment and redundancy, the Pilots were TUPE'd from AOM at the implementation of direct employment, which means previous service will count for redundancy if required. It also means these employees will not be required to be interviewed for their own jobs. Redundancy means making the position redundant not just the person so if you are made redundant you cannot be replaced in the same role. That's not to say that a new and different position could not be created, but those already employed would need to be offered relocation to the new position or further training to fulfill a new role or redundancy.

Police Officer crew would in all probability be moved to other frontline duties as the forces draw down their civilan staff so keep their jobs.

Like the rest of you, I wish this wasn't happening as in the first instance the maths is simple, less aircraft-less cover, and secondly I'll possibly be amongst the redundancies.

Good luck to all.

[airpolice]

Huge savings from NPAS project.

Seems likely that the idea of saving money by standardising and running it nationaly, will result in one ueo and a deputy, with all the cops reporting to those two by email.

60 odd senoior posts to be done away with and no reduction in operational cover.

Yeah, right.

[handysnaks]

I haven't heard any of the organisers say there will be no reduction in operational cover! I suspect they hope that there will be little reduction in operational cover. I would also think that each base will warrant a DUEO. I would also imagine that each region will have a regional UEO. Again, it's all guesswork.

I think the East Anglian model is a very good model to follow, I just hope that those controlling the whole affair think so too.

[RichiePAO]

If you are cutting aircraft then of course there will be reduction in cover. Also if you are flying a 135 1000 hrs a year thats five weeks or so off line for maintenance inspections........
Also what about the Chilterns model? Been running I believe since the mid nineties and supposedly well with minimum and a very efficient budgetary model....
There are a lot of solutions out there, lets hope the bosses make the right decision for the boys and the girls on the ground that have grown up in recent times to rely on the aircraft to help them out, find those vulnerable people and get the bad guys locked up.
Fingers crossed...

[Fortyodd2]

It was my understanding when the changes were first proposed, that we were to do more for the same or the same for less. Everything I have seen and heard so far indicates that we will be doing less for a little less with much less. :sad:

[Sulley]

You can't cover what exists now with less aircraft. less aircraft means longer transits and less effectiveness to the point where it becomes self defeating as there becomes little point in attending.Thereby meaning you can then make do with even less to the point where you have nothing.
None of the suggestions put forward actually save any money, in fact most cost more. As for the national model, that's going to take a huge cash input just to buy out those with existing contracts, to get to some kind of level starting point. I think there will be changes afoot but not necessarily, entirely , for the cost saving reasons being quoted - just a coincidence that the first national framework is due by 2012 same year as a rather large sporting event ? :hmm:

[airpolice]

Here's a suggestion that will save money, and possibly save air support.

Stop using Cops to do the work. Make it a civvy job at about 22,000- 25,000 including shift allowances and benefits. The scary thing is that there will be no shortage of applicants, just suitable applicants.The line manager need not be an observer, god knows there are enough managers in FHQ to look after a dozen or so guys in the ASU as well as the rest of their team.

There are no obstacles that can't be overcome in that scenario. The cost savings in manpower are substantial. The government have said that not much is sacred, so they will push through whatever changes need to be made for this to work. Imagine being able to keep the aircraft and units that exist, but showing a 40% reduction in manpower costs. That would be bigger reduction than many other parts of the police service can do, never mind Government departments.

Make a deal with the prosecution briefs to discourage civvy Observers from giving evidence where they are simply speaking to the fact that they took the pictures / saw the act that was recorded.

Most forces have civilian staff dispatching car crews to jobs, why not have civvy observers? They might well be able to fill all the jobs with ex police observers, a cushy job to top up your pension and competition winnings, eh Dave?

Use one type of aircraft and have a team of engineering nomads travelling around, by helicopter if required, doing service work and inspections and collecting/delivering serviced aircraft.

A couple of spares is more than most units have at the moment.

The good old days are gone, and the reality is that there are not loads of jobs for Engineers or Pilots, so the NASU will not need to be the best paying job in town. The Army are still churning out Pilots looking for work with fewer chances to get shot at.

I know that none of you guys at the sharp end really want to go back to shaking hands with padlocks in the dark, or wrestling with angry men.

However, that may be what's coming your way. If you want to stay in the brave new world of air support, get used to it being different.

[Fly_For_Fun]

If one thinks that the wheels of the great organisation running policing in this country will be fast enough to get this all sorted out, (decision made, aircraft gotten rid of, pilots dismissed or moved, bases built and units moved, consultations, legal challenges, employment tribunals, etc, etc) by 2012 then I think one is deluded. There are a huge amount of hoops to jump through before this is all in place, and working satisfactorily enough to deal with the 2012 Olympics. I fear that 18 months will be nowhere near enough time, god knows the police can not decide on what colour shirt they should all wear let alone who will be 30 mins or 10 mins away from air support. A lot of buns to be thrown between now and 'D' day.

As ever IMHO.

airpolice, you wouldn't be an Ex-obs looking for a job would you?

[Sulley]

The Observers role IS a police job. You don't save money by changing it across. The police observers would still be getting paid, just somewhere else.You now have to select their replacements, and pay them a salary and send them on national air observers courses and buy their kit- so how exactly does that save anything ? And no 18 months isn't nearly enough time - so why stipulate by 2012 unless there are other factors at play ?:hmm:

[airpolice]

Hi fly for fun, no I'm one of the leeches milking money out of "supporting" the sytem as it stands. My particular area is not going to be affected by the current review. I don't stand to gain any more or less money as a result of this review, and it is only because of a lack of the kind of joined up thinking that the new national strategy is intended to bring about, that I made any money from it at all.

A lot of the posters here seem unable to think outside the rigid framework of how things are done. For the good of the job, I hope that also applies to the people doing the review, but who knows.

A few years ago, the idea of Specials out on their own was unthinkable, now some forces are teaching the public how to operate a muniquip. What next?

Thirty years ago I remember being in traffic cars where two uniformed police officers need to have sight of the calibrated speedo in order to process a driver for speeding offences, now that job is done by a radar operated camera and a civvy looking at photos a few days later. Move on or get moved on, ffs, it's coming at you like a steam train and all you guys can do is say that it shouldn't be happening.

There was a time, I remember being there, when there was no national air observers course and all the admin and cost that happens now. That could come back. It really could!

In a couple of weeks any competent training officer at any ASU that I have been to could write a training package that a two week course could cover the basics (very basics) and have a new load of el cheapo observers on line.

I think they might be able to "train" the new guys even quicker than the PAOM could be rewritten and apporved by HMG and hey presto, it looks like an ASU but costs less, and the bosses can tell the great unwashed about how many uniformed cops they are getting back out on the street doing Real Police Work.

Of course they will not be as good as we have just now, but "you have to pee with the cock you've got" and if they take away the funding, it'll be this or nothing.

[Coconutty]

you have to pee with the cock you've got

... but who's got the BALLS :confused:

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[airpolice]

In what may well look like backstabbing, what odds would you give on the success (financially) of the first UEO to step up and say,

"I can do things in the new way and I am not going to be a stick in the mud, let me run it and I'll brush aside all the dead wood who keep on about doom and pestilence and ram raids"

Various half arsed politicians will see that as the future and go with it, but be be quick guys, only one of you can be in there first, while everyone else is saying what a shame it is.

[Fly_For_Fun]

Hi airpolice,
I have always managed to pee with what I have been given…...it’s just not as small as the government wants it to be, and I don’t want to be relived of 30% of it!:hmm:

[Fly_For_Fun]

JAFO, you miss the point slightly. Change is fine as long as what you end up with is not totally ineffective. Change for change sake is just as bad as leaving a broken system in place and doing nothing. I think what people are afraid of is the overwhelming idea that we have to save as much money as we can, no matter what we end up with. There comes a point when the effectiveness is so diminished, that the small amount of money spent is wasted, therefore making it less cost effective, and with a little more spent gives an effective service and is therefore very cost effective.

[airpolice]

Fly for fun, I don't mean to preach..... but...... really............

This is no longer about Air Support or even Policing. The people who hold the purse strings are saying you need to change. I doubt that they have a clue about effective use of Air Support, and they probably don't care.

They have been told to do a job, so they are going to do it. Ours is not to reason why etc.

We can agree that this is wrong, but you are pissing against the wind if you think that anyone who matters actually cares.

Get yourself sorted and come up with a plan or they will come up with one for you, five days to present a working way to save shed loads of money.


The cops will say they are getting shafted by going back on the street, but that's the job they signed up for.

Pilots will be more expensive to redeply as they may well ahve redunancy payments to think about, but the legal minmums may apply, rather than the sweet packages of a few years ago.

At least my plan is not about chopping loads of cover, just providing it cheaper, with the attendant short term loss of expertise that comes with doing it for less.

Thinking caps on guys.

[Fly_For_Fun]

Ours is not to reason why etc.


and we all know what happend the the glorious 600.....:(

[airpolice]

Yeah, they got shafted and the people making the rules got home in time for Tea and Medals.

I used to be in an AirForce 3 times the size it is today, and when their Airships started reducing it, loads of peole said we could not survive without all that we had. Well here we are, not only surviving, but fighting as well.

Loads of people who know about such things pointed out the folly of the PCSO principle, where all you really get is another reporter for incidents that you have fewer resources to deal with. A blind man running for a bus can see that's not what we need, but it's what we got.

As for Ram Raids, why is it that Inverness and Abdereen are not suffering from a rash of them? How come most of Scotland gets by without Air Support? Why do the good, or Bad people in Dyfedd Powys not run amok knowing that the aircraft is so far away from them. I'm sure that if North Yorkshire had two aircraft on 24 Hour readiness, they would deploy to loads of jobs and be a great help. But the world turns without that now and it will keep on turning.

I don't think there is a lot of support for the ASU outside those in regular contact with the day to day workings.

As I said earlier, come up with a plan or they will come up with one for you, and it will not be pretty.

Look at the Vulcan. The experts said if it was scrapped we could not defend our international position, but the MOD scrapped it anyway. then, just before it was too late, along comes a crisis in the South Atlantic and the Vulcan proved that GB can indeed still play a part on the world stage in defence of the realm. The pessimists claimed they were right all along and we could not have brought the Argies to their knees without the show of force.

Despite it beiing so bleedin obvious....they then scrapped it anyway.

But surprisingly, we've been able to get by without having the capacity to bomb South America.


So how bad would it be if they closed almost all of the ASU operations? All of England and Wales would be like North Yorkshire. Is that really so bad?

[SilsoeSid]

Ours is not to reason why etc.
and we all know what happend the the glorious 600.....:(


Verse 2 line 4;
"Some one had blunder'd:"

[J.A.F.O.]

All of England and Wales would be like North Yorkshire. Is that really so bad?

Have you been to Yorkshire? :E

JAFO (Lancashire Lad)

[Fly_For_Fun]

Silsoe, thats the first time I have laughed in days, Ta :ok:

[DERG]

What a drain on hardworking tax payers. What an insult to the UK as they buy foreign equipment. The pension and lump sums awarded are well above the average. When I ask most of them what they are hired for very few have a coherent answer.

[J.A.F.O.]

airpolice - I will admit to having a great deal of fun at Finningley if you'll promise not to tell anyone.

[Coconutty]

Come on then -

Who's going to be first with the info on what the Chiefs have been told today at their meeting ? :\


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[Kipper]

Coconutty

I'm afraid it's tomorrow - penultimate item on the agenda.

Kipper

[B.U.D.G.I.E]

Meeting was put off till tomorrow :\ does that make you think it's not as easy as they expected. Rumour has it some forces may get a bit of a shock :{