UK Police helicopter budget cuts

[Brilliant Stuff]

A picture is always better than a thousand words!:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

[SilsoeSid]

Can we interlace that map with crime rates?
and bigger?

[B.U.D.G.I.E]

So if you want to commit crime get your self to wales then. :mad:

[Retro Coupe]

So if you want to commit crime get your self to wales then. http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/censored.gif

or Cumbria, The Wash, East Sussex, Cornwall, Scarborough!

[Wagging Finger]

or Cumbria, The Wash, East Sussex, Cornwall, Scarborough!

All areas that currently have excellent coverage by aircraft?!??!

Let's not forget that these are time circles not range circles. how about overlaying population data rather than crime figures, Police A/C don't just respond to crime!

[SilsoeSid]

http://www.walesonline.co.uk (http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/2010/12/14/police-say-plan-to-scrap-its-helicopter-is-wrong-91466-27820434/)


A WELSH police authority yesterday announced it is to fight a plan to scrap its helicopter and replace it with a fixed-wing aircraft because it says the move is unworkable in a rural area.

Delyth Humfryes, chair of Dyfed-Powys Police Authority, said members unanimously agreed to oppose the plan by the National Police Air Service (NPAS) in Wales and England, which is part of proposals to cut the number of its aircraft and bases by a third.


And later in the article, a litttle bit of forked tonguery?

The project team told chief officers at a meeting last month that it was generally accepted that 80% to 90% of police air support tasks could be carried out by fixed-wing aircraft.

Back to statistics to get your chosen desire. :=
If you think about it, up to 90% of Police Air Tasks could be done by the bobby on the beat, given a stepladder/cherry picker, handheld thermal camera and 4x4 vehicle.

[SilsoeSid]

Elsewhere in Wales;
http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news (http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/2010/12/13/north-wales-police-helicopter-figures-revealed-55578-27813981/)

Chief Con Mark Polin said NWP have not yet committed to joining the national police air service.

[Retro Coupe]

All areas that currently have excellent coverage by aircraft?!??!I was referring to the post apocalypse chart, that has since been removed from the post, and the other largely uncovered areas apart from Wales. What do you class as excellent coverage? Yes Cumbria have access to NEASU and Lancs but due to the distances involved contributing anything meaningful to a pursuit or garden hopper in Kendal, Workington, Carlisle, forget it. If its a non-dynamic incident such as a MISPER search then you can still tick boxes even if it takes you 30 - 40 mins to get on scene.

I think NPAS are quite proud of the fact that 97% of the population of England and Wales can be reached in 20 mins with their 20 base model. However they may have forgotten that the majority of crime is commited by a minority of individuals who reside predominately in urban areas. Calls into question the proposed loss of South Yorkshire's machine and the reduced service to Sheffield, likewise the loss of Merseyside's aircraft. The other aircraft in the North West region will not be able provide between them the same level of service to Liverpool. "Mike 1" must have been doing something right to have had two very serious attempts recently at permanently removing them. Also moving Western Counties to the wholly inappropriate site of Colerne, away from their major crime hotspot of Bristol!

[Wagging Finger]

All areas that currently have excellent coverage by aircraft?!??!
What do you class as excellent coverage?
Sarcasm maybe?:eek:

:=

[SilsoeSid]

As the spectre of the attacks has reared it's head, has any 'Duty of Care' been given any thought in this matter?

Just think, 1 location, 2 aircraft, 3 crew (all of which could be 'civvies') and 4 cars turn up in the middle of nowhere with the nearest response up to 30 mins away.

Wasn't the primary aim of Policing the preservation of life and property?

[SilsoeSid]

From a different thread;

EGBO's a tricky one in fog, but it takes local knowledge or a very good eye indeed to know that. We sit in a bowl with some very damp ground to the south of us, so are very prone to fog which can set in for the whole day even when elsewhere clears. I think the fastest I've seen in the last month (let alone the last few years working there!) was CAVOK to 200m or less FG in 25 mins. Not one to play with.

P6

[PANews]

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/10932568/Colerne141110.9fog4sml.jpg

I suspect that Colerne is going to be one of those elements that will drop off the radar. And that discounts the radar needed to get in and out of there at times. Just one visit in November was met with swathes of fog on the perimeter. Bad choice or what?

Not only are important people in Bristol against losing their 135 from the centre of things, there are people in Wiltshire that seem quite keen on keeping the air ambulance element of the Wiltshire operation... and that is for years beyond the NPAS 2012 start date.

There have been some strange utterances from the main people involved in the tiny team including Richard Watson addressing the Air Ambulance Association AGM suggesting that there may be a possibility of police and air ambulance working together. Hang on a cotton picking minute..... I thought that the basis of NPAS was doing away with that......?

It looks to be very much a moveable feast..... not sure that it is a career prospects plus either...:E

So all in all I guess that by 2012 that whole map thing is going to alter completely. South Yorkshire.... reported as digging their heels in..... Dyfed looking to fixed wing.... and we have hardly started!

[PANews]

In the end the money supply will 'design' the end product.

Regardless of difficulties put up by such as Dyfed, South Yorks and Wiltshire if the central funds are not there and the AOC access witheld the government plan [whatever it is] will prevail.

As we all know, aviation is a very expensive commodity and becoming increasingly difficult for individual forces to afford without central help. If ever NPAS get a real plan put together by experts - a plan that will work that is - air support will be better. Until then it is in the lap of the gods.

The Police AOC was a good idea but I suspect it might act as a mighty sledge hammer to suppress any independent aspirations towards individualism in a period when that might actually be needed again. Just because the NPAS team have decreed it does not mean it is right and proper. IMHO

[Retro Coupe]

It's very quiet in here - in here -in here- in here - in here - in here - in here - ............:eek:

[PANews]

Just drawing the threads of the January edition together and noticed another major inconsistency in the NPAS plan..... remember this is a proposal where the ink is barely dry....

Last week I heard that the Dream Team were proposing putting police on air ambulances and now buried in a website statement by the Dyfed Powys Police Authority on the proposal to kill off the A109 is another 'inconsistency'.... you will mostly have read about the planned fixed wing option but until now I was not aware just where the idea came froim....

The National Project Team have suggested that a fixed wing aircraft could be incorporated in the National Police Air Service to address some concerns – there are however disadvantages with this such as inability to land at a scene, the inability to hover, and it would be unable to transport specialist officers.

Is something unravelling...... at speed....?

[airpolice]

there are however disadvantages with this such as inability to land at a scene, the inability to hover, and it would be unable to transport specialist officers.

No ****, Sherlock!

[PANews]

Yes but you have to remember that the people in the Police Authorities are pretty green on the subject so that observation is perhaps understandable.

Where this is all not understandable is that the people who are supposed to advise them, to fill in the gaps, to create a viable plan for them to approve are to be found wandering in the Colerne fog.....

That observation discounts the hierarchy of Dyfed-powys police it seems. They have been quoted as expressing some concerns about The Plan.... they appear only guilty of having signed it off 'on the nod' at the October meeting! Some of the Police Authorities are coming across as being of sterner stuff.

[B.U.D.G.I.E]

It does all seem to have gone a bit Q. Is this the sign of things to come? Have NPAS either
1 Decided its actually not as easy as they first thought and have gone away to have a re think or
2 Doing it behind every ones backs with out any real advice and consultation with the intention of railroading it through?? :=

[Fly_For_Fun]

BUDGIE, what is that knock on the door? Don't look now, it's the IPCC! They are behind you.....

[2896]

I was told yesterday that NPAS have been given the green light for their fighting funds which will be £16m over 4 years. So where do the saving com in to it? £15m saving - £16m set up fund = loss £1m :ugh::ugh::ugh:

Also can anyone confirm on the rumour that O.D. is no longer employed by NPAS?

[PANews]

2896 I know nothing.:oh:

But......:ok:

I think you will find that the next edition of a certain publication will make mention of there being a gap in The Dream Team that became effective year end.

Shhhhhh

Where was the funding information you mentioned.... which stone should I look under?:)

[Sulley]

-Don't look now, it's the IPCC! They are behind you..... well it is panto season after all !:ok:

[Fly_For_Fun]

Oh no it's not! :p

[SilsoeSid]

Enough of this seasonal frivolity, by the way, the IPCC behind you wouldn't be too bad because if you had the alternative (NPAS is behind you) then;

Oh....You better watch out,
You better not cry.
You better not pout,
I'm telling you why.
NPAS is comin' to town,
NPAS is comin' to town,
Nnnn..P..A...S.. is comin' ........to town.
:{


More smoke and mirrors?
http://www.thisisretford.co.uk (http://www.thisisretford.co.uk/news/Helicopter-service-benefit-town/article-2808525-detail/article.html)

Helicopter service will benefit town: Notts Police welcomes national plan
RETFORD will receive better police helicopter coverage when a new national scheme is approved, says the county's force.
Notts Police has welcomed the formation of a national police helicopter service.
Under the plans, announced on Tuesday this week, the helicopter currently serving Notts and Derbyshire will become one of 23 aircraft operating under a borderless deployment basis covering the entire country.
It means whichever helicopter is nearest to a particular incident will be called on to attend, even if it is happening outside of the county where it is based.

I guess nobody noticed that Sheffields ac wasn't going to be there to fill in any gaps and the one helicopter available in that area will have a larger borderless area to cover.

"NPAS means that we will always have a helicopter to call upon. It also means better coverage for places which are further from Ripley, such as Glossop and Retford."

Isn't Retford in Nottinghamshire?
Uuum, if the base is staying at Ripley, the distance to Retford remains the same. Surely it will still be supported by the same ac from the same base!
The Sheffield ac would be closer, but is being taken away. :confused:

So with the 'Nottinghamshire ac' being available to other counties, the service to places like Retford could actually become worse, especially as it will then on call for jobs in Sheffield!

[jayteeto]

Are you trying to say Liverpool is a bad place???????

[airpolice]

If he won't say it, then I will.

[Marco]

2896 - Correct O.D. no longer part of NPAS.

PAN - Agree totally about your sentiments concerning Colerne. This was not visited at all and no contact has been made in any way with them about NPAS plans!

[zorab64]

Why is it every time I hear the word "cluster", I always (mentally) add a four letter word after it, as if the two invariably belong together in some way.
This is turning out to be a classic one! :ugh:


"Right hand this is Left hand, over, shall we chat sensibly via Brain as normal, or just wave at each other inanely?"

[What Limits]

OK, all you armchair quarterbacks, how would you save 13 million off the police aviation budget?

[SilsoeSid]

OK, all you armchair quarterbacks, how would you save 13 million off the police aviation budget?

Well. maybe if an earlier post was correct...

2896;
I was told yesterday that NPAS have been given the green light for their fighting funds which will be £16m over 4 years.

Maybe the money could have been saved by not actually trying to make too many savings, too soon.

[jayteeto]

A good start would be to avoid knee jerk reactions and get aviation experts in to do the job. There IS and always was a need to do things more efficiently. Small (too small) steps had already been taken in the bulk(ish) buy of aircraft recently. Centralising pilotage and engineering would help as well, with many different companies providing the services.
There is no doubt that some areas had more coverage than others, however instead of looking at 'total' geographical coverage, you should assess DEMAND; The busiest areas seem to be the ones sacrificing services.
Ultimately, this alone would not be enough and the network would have to lose some capability. However, they should once again look at DEMAND and risk manage. Circles on maps do not account for historical areas of bad weather. Example, North Wales will not be able to do a straight line for Caernarfon at night/in winter for the majority of the year! The circles say they can!! Substitute that for other areas.
Also, Merseyside will bleed the surrounding services with their high demand. If the ac is over Liverpool, what happens if a job comes in from say, east manchester? What I am trying to say is that these circles show where ONE aircraft can go from a standing start. If it is 20 minutes south and a new job comes in 20 minutes North................ :ouch:
I don't believe that anyone here does not accept that cuts are going to happen. They just want to make sure it is done properly.

[SilsoeSid]

Very wise words from jayteeto.

The magic sentence seems to me to be, "A good start would be to avoid knee jerk reactions and get aviation experts in to do the job."

Units around the country have already been striving to get more borderless/nearest ac type agreements set up. All that this NPAS descision has done is halt any progress, and thrown the proverbial bull into the china shop. Lets not forget that those damages need to be paid for, in this case new bases, contracts, lost investments, etc.

I'm sure that within not too long, CCAOU, WMAOU, EMAOU & NMAOU may have all come under the CMPG, or similar joint operating collective umbrella. The whole of the central UK would be covered, with savings made and operational effectiveness improved. I believe that similar arrangements have already been going on all over the country.

If earlier figures are correct, doesnt it seem sooo wrong to spend more money implementing a system to save money, than the amount of money you are trying to save.

Would you pay £16 for a '£15 off' voucher at the shops?

[B.U.D.G.I.E]

All that this NPAS descision has done is halt any progress

You have a bit of a point there. How many units around the country are having this conversation at work.

Boss can we have some new flying suits mines got holes in. " erm no we will have to wait to see what the national picture will want. We will all need to have the same"

Boss whats happening about security of the aircraft are we getting any extra training or kit. (exact meaning removed, but those in the know will know) " erm no we will have to wait to see what the national picture will want. We will all need to have the same"

Boss whats happening with the cold water rescue training. Can we do any. " erm no we will have to wait to see what the national picture will want. We will all need to have the same"

Boss we need some new observers training some are leaving some cause there old can we recruit " erm no we will have to wait to see what the national picture will want. We will all need to have the same"
:=

[lynx no more]

For those who need cheering up in the ASU world here is a clip that should do it. I bet they were rolling around the cockpit laughing!

SmHFUSGNj8k


I've even seen another landshark get the sack for a very similar incident, but that one bit a cop instead of the runner!

At least they got it all on tape :D

[Thud_and_Blunder]

Lynx,

Very many thanks, loved watching that. Should've followed W Mids 'lead' (sry) and employed Rottweilers. There used to be a lovely clip of AD82 on the W Mids site, bringing a very long and dangerous pursuit (absolute nutter of a white-van driver) to an end. At the end of the clip, once the Rotty had been persuaded to let go of WVM, the dog could be seen eyeing a pony at the other end of the field and pondering whether it would do in lieu of lunch.

[Fly_For_Fun]

Makes you wonder why they bother with dogs or coppers??? Funniest thing I have seen for ages.

[PANews]

I never managed to get a copy but the best 'bad dog' one I ever saw was from the Met Police ASU at least 20 years ago [so probably AS355N] .... scene a suburban back gaden.... FLIR picture of a search using a dog..... white heat.... you could easily see the suspect hiding in the bushes by a shed and hear the helicopter observer trying to direct both the dog and its handler to the glowing target.... back and forth they go past the heat source at a distance of 2-3 feet. They just did not connect...

Eventually the clearly distracted K9 walks up to the back of the garden and squats...... depositing a glowing 'torpedo' on the garden .......

Eventually coaxed back to the [other] job in hand .... there was a repeat of the failure to find the target..... the scene eventually ends with the dog handler picking up the dog and throwing it at the target still hiding in the bush!

Arrest made!

Someone must have a copy out there somewhere....

I must admit to witnessing numerous instances of dogs behaving badly.... when compared with helicopters they were about as reliable!

[Hughes500]

I now understand why D and C went for the 145, enough room for the dog team in the back:ok:

[SilsoeSid]

I now understand why D and C went for the 145, enough room for the dog team in the back :ok:

Blimey, most units can manage a dog and it's handler with no trouble at all, are D & C taking the whole kennels?

[SilsoeSid]

Careless cops lose police dog

A £4 MILLION helicopter and ‘extensive police resources’ were used after bungling cops lost a valuable police dog.


The police helicopter, which costs between £500-£1,000 an hour to keep airborne, was used for around four hours, according to eye witnesses, to locate the dog in Denbigh, along with ‘four police cars, an unmarked police car and officers on foot patrol.’
- Careless cops lose police dog (http://www.denbighshirefreepress.co.uk/news/93381/careless-cops-lose-police-dog.aspx)

Talk about history repeating itself, c/o wikki;

One of the first real attempts to use dogs to aid police in the detection of crime and the apprehension of a criminal was in 1888 when two bloodhounds were used in a simple tracking test set by the then Commissioner of the Metropolitan (London) Police, Sir Charles Warren with a view to using them in the hunt for the Victorian murderer, Jack the Ripper. The results were far from satisfactory, with one of the hounds biting the Commissioner and both dogs later running off requiring a police search to find them.



...and back to the earlier question, "OK, all you armchair quarterbacks, how would you save 13 million off the police aviation budget?"

Apparently there are 2500 police dogs in the country, at £4k a time, lets push out some A5 flyers reminding handlers to close cage doors.
That's £10 million taken care of!
;)

[PANews]

Sort of sorry to go off thread ..... [not really .... its Christmas] but this fits in with the current diversions asking whether there is enough room in the average police heliciopter...... it was not always so....

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/10932568/1963BrantlyOxford3.jpg

Oxford City Police, 1963. A dog named 'Danko' who loved his job.... Brantly B2 of BEAS.... aaaaaahh.... the nostalgia....

[Wagging Finger]

the nostalgia


“You can't have a better tomorrow if you are thinking about yesterday all the time.”

Charles Kettering
:=

[airpolice]

But if you don't think about why today was ****, then tomorrow may well be just as bad!

[PANews]

If you do not know about the mess they made of yesterday you go and make the same old mistakes again... and again....

[SilsoeSid]

If you do not know about the mess they made of yesterday you go and make the same old mistakes again... and again....

I knew that still having the seat runners in the floor in the back was a bad idea. The smell will be hanging around for ages once it gets in them!
You were talking about dog mess, weren't you!?
;)

[Wagging Finger]

If you do not know about the mess they made of yesterday you go and make the same old mistakes again... and again....

So who made the first mess, Robert Peel?

[tigerfish]

No Wagging finger! It was when we went soft on criminality.

As a young cop I learned two valuable lessons.

(1) All criminals are volunteers, so >>>>>>

(2) Never be kind to a criminal. For to a criminal,- kindness is a weakness, and weaknesses are to be exploited.

Sounds harsh! But softness produces far too many innocent victims.

Tigerfish
AKA "Ol Grumpy"

[PANews]

No, the overall mess started way before then.... Henry Fielding probably..... no wonder he was half hearted about the whole thing and left it to Peel some time later!

In the Rotorheads line I guess it was a bit more recent.... perhaps Juan de Cierva... possibly Sikorky for putting a tail rotor on the back..... seems Rotorheads have been arguing about that development ever since!

[lynx no more]

As its nearly xmas, and to keep spirits up.

This fine officer might be an observer now with navigating skills like these!

Funny Police 009 - Video (http://www.metacafe.com/watch/2530657/funny_police_009/)

I dont know if she meant to park it there though ;)

And the other handler might want to take Pluto to this college..

YouTube - FUNNY POLICE DOGS!!!!! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hR2si0hFGCM)

[flying bizzie]

Great to see the French don't muck about! However with the latest round of cuts, I fear this is what we will be recruiting in the near future:uhoh:

http://www.petside.com/breeds/assets_c/2009/01/shih-tzu-thumb-334xauto-250.jpg

FB:ok:

[Coconutty]

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/BudgetNPAS.jpg

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[PANews]

Another one to put your head around.....

The plan to cut the Coastguard is out there.... they are after cutting the number of coastguard stations in Britain from 19 to eight, of which only three will operate round the clock. The service could lose 250 jobs as part of efforts to save £7.5M a year.

There is a plan....... but now there is a public consultation..... its all about a restructure to provide a Coastguard service into an organisation that is more efficient, more effective, more resilient, and one that gives [the remaining] Coastguard staff better job satisfaction, more attractive career opportunities than before, and an improved pay....... [heard all that before somewhere?]

HM Coastguard Proposals for Modernisation Consultation 2010 (http://www.mcga.gov.uk/c4mca/mcga07-home/shipsandcargoes/consultations/mcga-currentconsultations/hm_coastguard_proposals_for_modernisation_consultation_2010. htm)

The consultation on the proposals will run until March 24 2011.

Bearing in mind that this will lead to savings and that police air support also wants saving through NPAS it is 'interesting' to note that those in the consultation process include all the emergency services and that among the airborne assets is Sky Watch CAP, a clear indication that this group is now being seen as a viable element in the emergency arena. There are other similar groups but they are not included. Bear in mind that the police input is general and there is no apparent direct interface with police air support.

SWCAP remain pretty much shunned by police air support at a local level but welcomed by those police forces without aircraft – particularly in Scotland. But they have the upper hand in direct feedback to the consultation.......

It is too early to gauge the thoughts of NPAS on them but might it be suggested that one element of the savings is sitting in little autogyros on an airfield near you?:\

[B.U.D.G.I.E]

steady coco :ok:

[ShyTorque]

There is a plan....... but now there is a public consultation..... its all about a restructure to provide a Coastguard service into an organisation that is more efficient, more effective, more resilient, and one that gives [the remaining] Coastguard staff better job satisfaction, more attractive career opportunities than before, and an improved pay....... [heard all that before somewhere?]


What are they going to do? Move them to Birmingham?

[What Limits]

Ok, seeing as no-one could answer the 'armchair quarterback' question, here is another

Has anyone ever actually acheived the same, or more, with less?

a restructure to provide a ......... service ......... that is more efficient, more effective, more resilient

I have never seen it, anyone else?

[PANews]

Just to extricate one paragraph from the 48 page document... and pull it to peices...

The current arrangement of the Coastguard dates back forty years ..... Eighteen Maritime Rescue Coordination Centres are spread across the UK, together with a small centre in London.
Each centre's systems are 'paired' with a neighbour allowing them to work together when necessary, but beyond these pairings the stations are not interoperable.
This means that the system suffers from a fundamental lack of resilience. In the event of a problem affecting both centres in a pair, it is not possible for an incident to be managed from another centre..... impossible to spread workloads across the system; so staff in one centre may be struggling to cope with call volumes while workloads in another may be low.... uneven workloads lessen resilience [good word that... used it twice], hamper staff development and lead to higher than necessary staff costs.

Aside from the head scratching moment of why whinge about no two centres being able to consistently work together and then reduce the sum total of the centres to two.... at which no doubt the staff will be much reduced ... and therefore be easily overcome by a lack of staff in moments of crises ...just one of the supposed faults at present..... I guess that the plan is to digitize it all so they can all speak to each other [or not] at a terrific price to install it and then to run it at a terrific cost .... [that goes with the story that 'some police officers directed to resort to text messages to call in to HQ']

I reckon that this is the first few days of another funding disaster.... 'lets save money' developing into cost overruns based on the cost of the proposed changes [the IT, comms, redundancy etc].

That line of thinking may just have a parrallel with the NPAS [we are supposed to be talking about!] in that no one has yet put forward the potential cost of plumbing in the BTP national network into the NPAS radio system. As each force developed the system locally there may be differences [despite the nominally central development] and what princely sum are Airwave central going to charge for the changes - no matter how minute? I bet its closer to a million than a thousand....

[PANews]

And now for something different... and more on track.

The Bridport News in Dorset has just carried a long report on the local authority cuts to services and buried in there is a police helicopter cuts comment.

Dorset is now one of the lowest funded police forces in the country – and this calls for drastic measures, says the county’s chief constable. To deal with a shortfall of £6.7million next year the authority has announced dramatic cost-cutting measures to transform the force. The immediate measures to be put in place on January 4 include losing high-ranking police officers, continuing a recruitment freeze, changing shift patterns, scrapping geographical police divisions and possibly closing stations. In addition they will be flying less hours on the helicopter.

Little need to point out to the knowing that less hours means higher costs per hour but it is more pertinent to be asking some silly questions about what this means to the NPAS promise? Was it not just weeks ago that the ACPO Lead on Aviation and Chief Constable of Hampshire sacrificed 'his' fixed wing operation on the NPAS altar saying that the county would be covered by the helicopters of adjoining forces?

And is not Dorset one of those?

[heli1]

Lots of fears being put out by local police authorities at present to whip up public protests ,which will at least give them some overtime when they have to kettle the protesters ...we're all doooomed I tell ye.

Is it a coincidence though that the government has just abandoned the regional fire centres ,after the previous government spent millions .Maybe they will be just the ticket for new regional coast guard centres ??

[SilsoeSid]

Ok, seeing as no-one could answer the 'armchair quarterback' question, here is another

Has anyone ever actually acheived the same, or more, with less?

Well, I think the first question was answered quite nicely by jayeeto earlier.

As for the second question, Yes!
That is before 'The Plan' was let loose.

Before the announcement, the Midlands from Cov to the Welsh Border and Stoke to Ross on Wye, had a virtual 24 hour service. Now that 'The Plan' has been announced, it has all gone back to square 1 !

So...we did achieve more, with less.
The Old Bill at Ludlow and Ross simply don't know what hits them when the helicopter turns up at 4/5am on a Misper search! Recent weeks can also back up this 'more with less' arrangement! ;)

As I said earlier;
"Units around the country have already been striving to get more borderless/nearest ac type agreements set up. All that this NPAS descision has done is halt any progress, and thrown the proverbial bull into the china shop."

[John R81]

Given the information from Pannews, I think the coastguard version would be

http://i785.photobucket.com/albums/yy133/Nuthurst1/Coastheli.jpg

[tigerfish]

It is becoming clear that many Chief Officers signed up to the NPAS project without really appreciating what they were really committing themselves to.

They were taken in by such attractive quotes as "They will have more aircraft available to them" -- Strictly true I suppose, but they never asked themselves, "How can that be, with seven less aircraft?" " How far away are these supporting aircraft?" How long will they take to get here? Will they now need to refuel before they can do anything?

Air support can only be truly effective if it is rapid, properly equipped, and effectively deployed. These plans do not fulfill those basic criteria and will not deliver.

If money has to be saved, do it by National contracts for fuel, maintenance, Insurance, PAOC, training and command structure. Deliver the service regionally . If some aircraft are under used then examine why before disposing. They might be better used elswhere. Scrap those stupid range rings and make your decisions based on demand profiles. Consider a unified fleet.

But before doing anything, ensure that you have the communications sorted out. The concept has always worked best when "Any PC can request" not relying on control rooms decisions. the involvement of Multiple control rooms is a recipe for confusion and inefficiency.

Dont get hung up on the mantra of borderless policing! The Police Air units of the UK have always been in the forfront of that concept. Communications between units one of our strengths.

Tigerfish

[500e]

Is this the answer, wrap up warm :E:E
Sorry Sid forgot the smileys

Palm Bay police paraglider unit plans to expand | floridatoday.com | FLORIDA TODAY (http://www.floridatoday.com/article/20101222/NEWS01/12220328/1006/news01/Palm+Bay+police+paraglider+unit+plans+to+expand)

[SilsoeSid]

The initial idea for the aerial search program came about after a group of Palm Bay officers who fly similar paragliders recreationally were asked by Palm Bay Police Chief William Berger to organize a special team.

1. A group of us like to drive Caterham 500's on track days, surely that would be a better pursuit vehicle than a traffic car. I will have a word with the CC.
:rolleyes:

2. Reading the article, they haven't actually achieved anything in the year and a half they have been operating, and in their own words..."We're still waiting for that big moment,"
:ugh:

3. The clue that something is not quite right is in the name, Paraglider!
I think the officers involved must also have a link to our new setup, as they seem to be good at smoke/mirrors & wool over eyes techniques.
There's an engine there somewhere, which would therefore make it a Paramotor!
:8

On the video in the previous link by 500e;
Limited by wind & weather
10 mph wind limit!
Experimental class of ac
Civil Air Patrol
That horrible 2 stroke sound!



Her's another video, firstly try not to laugh too much, and then once you've recovered, just imagine some of the observers in your unit having a go !
:rotfl:

IK4QQK-O7v4


Happy Christmas to you all :ok:

[Coconutty]

Sorry Sid,

I tried really hard to do what you said, but
( despite not havng much to laugh about recently ),
I just couldn't help myself :):):) :ok:

What's the brown stuff in the white tank - Fuel ?
in which case there doesn't seem to be very much ?
or is it a ***** collector -
in which case there's probably the correct amount from that "flight".

Seasons greetings,

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[PANews]

I met with these people, they are keen as mustard but not in the same league as UK police aviators..... they are something like the UK plans of the 1960s when the UK had City forces.... Durham for instance with their Brantly B2

Almost every US State has air support for the masses .... usually it is hard pressed to meet a fraction of the local state demands put upon it by the hundreds of police units in each state. So you get 'stand alone' operations flying anything that can be afforded.

But 17,000 police forces do not yet have 17,000 ASU's so the US government has got together a plan that seeks to provide equipment [including aircraft of many types] to units that are otherwise too small to support any air support. You would not expect Rutland or Brighton to have their own ASUs but under the scheme this is possible and it gives those that want air support automony.

It is easy to take the p** out of the aspirations of these Floridians but they can only afford the Parachute option. It could be a microlight or an R44. At least their Government is giving them choice and not simply taking away what already exists.... bought and paid for if you will.... and 'doing more with less.'

There is another little sting in this tale though. US law allowed each of the men in Palm Bay to go fly operationally totally without training or certification! A year on they are certified now, but they do not need to be and neither do their aircraft need to pass any tests..... its all about Public Use. Scary stuff!

And already you can see the green shoots of that go it alone thinking in the UK. Wasn't there a story that NPAS wanted to remove the A109 from Dyfed-Powys so the next thing you hear is that they [Dyfed] are looking at getting their own fixed wing.... nationalise all you want but there is likely to be someone out there that wants to go it alone....

[SilsoeSid]

.... nationalise all you want but there is likely to be someone out there that wants to go it alone....

You mean to say that we are all individuals?
Now where have I heard that before?
:ok:

O.D. addresses the nations CC's at the 'secret meeting'. ;)
jVygqjyS4CA

[Eurocopper]

"Dog mess in the seat runners" - as nothing compared with bull***t from the "dream" team, imminently minus one who has obviously seen the light.

The 20 minute circles are really more like 30 by the time that the local control room has fed the call to the central control room and the a/c despatched, given that most ASUs now keep their insurers happy by hangaring at night.

How does one take this to the next level? - write to your MP and Police Authority?

Compared with the Overseas aid budget > £9 billion, the "savings" are small change. The new government has strange priorities :\

[MerryDown]

Reducing helicopter numbers is only part of the drive to save money.


Tasking is the other area in desperate need of a "pair of balls" , Forces will happily send their aircraft out on the most mundane and ridiculous tasks, often against the advice of the crews, giving them the most pointless and futile searches .

Police forces have descended into trying to acheive the impossible with every task which may end in a civil claim against them.

Corporate arse covering adds thousands of pounds to air operations budgets, if some plank has rang the Police for the 18th time in a month threatening suicide, then why exactly does the helicopter have to go look for him ?

Because nobody will say "No we are not coming, he has done this 18 times this month" , just in case.


If anyone sees any balls for sale, sturdy, stainless steel, corrosion resistant, with a hefty weight about them, drop me a line.



I need 43 pairs for the people needing them most, The Armchair Police !

[mickjoebill]

Will management of video downlink microwave frequencies be more difficult under the proposed new arrangements?


Mickjoebill

[PANews]

I have learned that one of the items to be resolved by NPAS will be the differences in standard of microwave link between current operators.

It was said there would be a common standard, which is to be expected, but also suggested that the identity of the winner of that common standard was 'not decided' yet. Competition warning!

This sort of beggars belief.

I do not have list of who has what but at the moment there are probably 4 differing standards of analogue and digital in use and these will gravitate to one after 2012 [and the Olympics]. What is being suggested is that the selection will be open and that the fact that one company has pretty much sewn up the UK market will not count in their favour....

Not sure about anyone else but I find that hard to believe.... even if all the other cost saving measures proposed for NPAS are pretty flimsy.... converting 90% of your fleet [and the infrastructure] from Brand A to meet the alternative 10% holding Brand X, or even a wholly new Brand Y does not make any sense.

But that is the fairy tale.

Oh, and that is something else that NPAS central control will have to be wired for....

[wright123]

Councillor McLuckie chair of Cleveland Police Authority announced in the Evening Gazette today that his force is losing £17 million due budget cuts.

He says the Cleveland force is about to purchase a new £6million helicopter with the help of a gov grant (1mill) The same new helicopter will become a national treasure in 2012 under NPAS. Bought by cleveland but used by anyone else.

North Yorks the largest county in England will be made up with the latest NPAS news, especially when they havent had to fund the new Cleveland a/c which they will be using in 2012 ;)

in 2009 McLuckie wouldnt agree to the other 2 NEASU consortium forces plans for one a/c, as they said that there wasnt a need for 2 a/c in the consortium area. Councillor McLuckie demanded the spare a/c for his own force use, but now he mentions that that further cuts may be made in light of the latest Home Office funding cuts.

Cleveland is one of the smallest counties in England and McLuckie fought the last governments attempt to amalgamate the Cleveland force with the Northumbria and Durham forces.

He appears to be very worried councillor on his CPA website spouting about the latest plans for the new police commisionaires who will be paid £120k pa, even though McLuckie and his fellow Cleveland authority councillors claimed over £200k in expenses in Cleveland last year! Its only tax payers money after all isnt it :mad:

[20Minuter]

PANews - Why will NPAS Control need to be wired for downlink?

[PANews]

An assumption on my part.... thought that the controller might want to see what he was doing!

Then of course... thinking about it..... why start now?:)

[SilsoeSid]

PA;

...thought that the controller might want to see what he was doing!

Pssst, these days they also let ladies be in charge!
A bit of recent Policing news for PANews (http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23903211-woman-officer-takes-over-job-of-policing-demonstrations.do)

Anyhoo, just how many screens is this control room going to have? 23!
There's another few thousand squids to be spent in the name of savings. :rolleyes:

Besides, is the NPAS controller going to control all these incidents at once? Are you saying that nationally we could perhaps cope with a few garden searches and other such tasks going on at the same time, but there will only be the capacity to handle one pursuit nationally at any one time!
:ugh:

Perhaps each force should control its own tasking, using the control rooms, controllers and screens they already have! :eek:

[PANews]

I knew it would all go wrong when they started letting in female sergeants back in the 60's!

And I bet you are one of those silly sods that pull up the merest slip of the tongue when some one doesn't address The Chair rather than the ancient post of Chairman. Chairwoman if apropriate by gender and and in the right context i.e. who is to be voted into the 'chair' is ok as well but I still do not address furniture.

Fair point ..... but I will do it again.....:oh:

Back to the real point....

I guess none of us know the answer to the question but the tongue in cheek reply assumes that the BTP control room [that adds just onother delaying layer into the call out times] will not have the capacity to take downlink at the moment and that raises the question of whether they [the untrained in the ways of air support] will be having an over view of the subject they are controlling .... in which case one receiver/screen for each aircraft assuming all are aloft at the same time on occasion?

Another problem may arise. I am not sure quite where the hierarchy sit in all of this in BTP, but they may need a few more ACPO's trained in air support if the tale I heard of Scotland is anywhere near widespread.

As we know air support is pretty much a constable and sergeant task.... and therein lies the knowledge. In keeping with its own code of practice a certain English force made the mistake of sending just a very able sergeant to liaise with the Scottish police control room for a major event where they were using a helicopter for pretty much the first time in years.

When the action started the sergeant wanted the main screens switched on so he asked the officers around him to do just that. They 'refused' because the man in charge of the control room had not told them they could. So said sergeant went straight over to the ACC in charge [as he was used to in his home force] and tried to speak to him. All he wanted on was the screens. But he did not have the right pay grade to speak directly to an ACC and the bloke refused to speak to him. The screens were never put on in time and the s*** unnecessarily hit the fan on the streets.

This was a handful of years ago but I doubt it has changed greatly, and only operational pressure as found in dealing with major events changes it. Are BTP senior staff up to being told what to do by those that know as opposed tto based on pay grade?

Similarly where now the direct calling of the helicopter by the man on the street? I was doing that [not always accepted of course] 25 years ago. Is this facility now to be lost? Is UK air support going to degrade to a standard that most European forces admire but have yet to get their head around?

Bah!

[SilsoeSid]

Can we just tidy up a little detail please.

Is this 'BTP Control Room' a product of NPAS or something this thread has invented during the fog of rumouric discussion, that appears to have been taken as now being part of 'The Plan'.

[PANews]

When you asked that I did briefly think "Lummy is that for real or was it a by product of 'information'....." :*

Fear not...:) I went back into my file system and there it was produced by ACPO/NPIA..... 20 questions for Doubting Thomas'..... the one you want says....

Who will manage the service/ act as command and control?
The service will be delivered by a national organisation. At present NPIA are assisting with the implementation of the project and work is ongoing to establish the eventual host organisation. In terms of the central dispatch function, this is yet to be decided. However, the project team have set up a workstream in association with British Transport Police to establish a single point of contact for Aircraft dispatch within BTP control rooms. This work is at an early stage but full proposals will be put to the Air Service Project Board in early 2011.

So, like everything in this thread it is the plan but it is a moveable feast and there remains an outside chance that the national control room of Tesco Supermarkets will actually get the job! :ok:

[Coconutty]

Thanks for that PAN - "Every Little Helps" :8

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[yme]

Why will NPAS Control need to be wired for downlink?

Having some knowledge of how a border less system works there is no need for the Aircraft dispatcher to be involved in watching whats going on.
On the other hand the local user may want a downlink, that becomes their decision and will come down to compatibility of equipment. The fun part!

[Fly_For_Fun]

As I understand it, downlink uses microwave technology and it is line of site. So how will one place in the UK, BTP control room, receive all the transmitted footage from around the country? Or is each police control room / station going to be fitted with receivers?

[PANews]

Well if 'Tesco' get the job there will be no need of course but if it is given to a police C&C they will need some access to what the fleet is up to.

All existing operations and the police HQ have RX/TX... it is just that they are not all the same.... if they are the same it is relatively easy [with lots of money] to link them all. Pretty sure London requires three send/receive aerials to service its own needs so lots of gear required or needing changes UK wide.

That is just two of the million imponderables this plan has thrown up.

Somewhere there will need to be a central command even if it is an office on the Isle of Skye.

They might invent a post.... how about a NPAS Police Aviation Commander [ya know the Home Office Police Aviation Advisor renamed, it is /was the long standing proven post with some knowledge of the subject] and so he/she can talk to a Commander anywhere and get an answer he/she will be an ACPO rank with no knowledge of the subject with another ACPO rank to pick up the phone, an inspector to write the reports and a sergeant and constable with knowledge of the subject to tell them all what to do. ;)

[Coconutty]

No doubt there will be another "Workstream" to sort it all this out,
and no doubt they will consider that, at present,
different forces have different Downlinking / Uplinking requirements,
and have purchased their existing "kit" accordingly.

Some forces with the latest aircraft ( like the ECUK common Police spec 135 - which is kitted out with a Transmitter and Receiver
from the (current) preferred provider of digital microwave equipment ), have gone for Force receiver(s) {Downlink from aircraft}
AND transmitter(s) {Uplink to aircraft}, whereas others have only got Downlink {from aircraft} capability.

Those with Downlink only - who operate in a consortium or region, or receive "Mutual Aid" air support,
have probably had to come up with a method of utilising the limited number of available Channels (frequencies),
and SOP's to utilise the various encryption codes, to ensure that whichever aircraft is deployed on their force area,
downlinked imagery is available in their Control Room ( and maybe elsewhere ).

There are limitations on how far ( distance ) the aircraft can transmit downlinked imagery,
or receive uplinked imagery / data, and it may well be that if there is an NPAS requirement
to have such Imagery available in the National Control Room, ( wherever it is eventually located ),
then a whole new pack of crayons will have to be deployed to draw some more circles on a map,
to work out where to install the new receiving / transmitting sites.
( 6 inch diameter on a half-mil for Downlinking should do the trick :rolleyes: )

While the cost of crayons and maps are relatively cheap,
how much (more) would it cost to set up such a National Network of receivers and transmitters,
to ensure that everyone who needs to an access the imagery / data gets it ??

Wonder what else hasn't really been thought through yet :ugh:

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[SilsoeSid]

Thanks for that PAN. :ok:
I have found a reference here;
New service to provide police helicopters - Manchester News (http://www.manchesterwired.co.uk/news.php/102435-New-service-to-provide-police-helicopters)

British Transport Police will be in charge of the service's command and control structure and there will also be a clear "user requirement" laid out, meaning flights - which cost around £2,000 per hour - will be approved only if they are necessary.

Does that mean that BTP will now have national access to the Police Helicopters? Well, at least they will save money by not having to hire a 355.

If they think that doing more with less is achievable, why don't we go totally hatstand and also take on National Grid tasking and maybe even hire ourselves out for immediate tasks? Who knows, Brides may never be late for the wedding due to traffic, snow or breakdowns again :rolleyes:

[Fly_For_Fun]

Not forgetting, live coverage of fottie matches, live "Police Camera, Acton", live Sky news coverage, the list is endless. :suspect:

[PANews]

I suspect that BTP have not had air support since Jarvis went to the wall... it was their helicopter and largesse that provided the lions share of the police air time. As most of that was PR stunt use for the BBC and ITV news I do not hold their 'experience' in high regard.

There is another item in that Manchester paper of interest.

They quote the officer from Hampshire Federation as stating his confidence in 'the service ..... won't be badly affected.... reducing from three to two aircraft ...... diminished..... adequate but [not the] Rolls-Royce service we've been used to.'

Bear in mind that the three aircraft we are talking about as producing the Rolls Royce service were not actually particularly active.... the now deleted Hampshire fixed wing was a bit of a fair weather friend and both it and Sussex have not been over busy. I do not have the numbers but I believe well below 1,000pa each.

There may be grounds to state that their service might improve slightly with two fully funded aircraft flying to capacity .... 1,200 hours per year each.... but I think even before Sussex is deleted that just will not happen. After Sussex is deleted the remaining Surrey aircraft will be physically unable to give the three counties full service to even current expectations.

This may be reflected in many areas across the country leaving the busy aircraft [1,200+ pa] still busy but the sluggards remaining unfunded through 2012. Probably beyond because of contracts.

[SilsoeSid]

Not forgetting, live coverage of fottie matches, live "Police Camera, Acton", live Sky news coverage, the list is endless. :suspect:

I think fottie matches could catch on given that we are all now officially bigger than we were 10 years ago, however, I think The Met are still out of the plan! :p

[Brilliant Stuff]

The downlinked video can be fed through the intranet or the internet like our Scandinavian cousins.

[southerncanuck]

downlinking HD or standard Def?

[tigerfish]

The problem here is that very senior people have fallen into the trap of using "political smoke & mirrors" when they attempt to promote the new regime

One example that I read recently, involved a Chief Constable, who was trying to explain to all and sundry, that the new arrangements for air support would actually provide a better service than that they currently enjoyed. "It was", he explained, "because in future, they would no longer have to rely on their one machine, but could then call on the services of other machines in the region when their's was unavailable".

Strictly speaking that was a true statement, - (in Political speak). But what he neglected to say was that by the time the "duty" machine arrived from the other side of the region, the incident would be over, everyone had gone home, and the machine now needed refueling before it could go back to its base!

I dispare! Whenever will these Senior Officers and their bean counters, realise that this sort of Bu****it, just will not wash today? The public and the rank and file of the Police Service in general, are both far more aware of the real position facing us, to be taken in by such shallow arguements

NPAS and its promotors must understand and accept, that the public realise that we are experiencing difficult times and that savings have to be made. If the need for such savings are properly explained, and that the aircraft being withdrawn are the ones with the lowest demand profile, then they might accept the consequential reduction in service. Sadly the current proposals fell far short of any such logicality, and the current turbulance is a direct result of that failure.

I repeat, we can work with the truth, but the use of smoke & mirrors just gets people grumpy!

UK Police Air Support has always been a lesson to others in mutual co-operation and demonstrated a desire to back each other up. Therefore the decision to "sell" NPAS on the advantages of borderless policing, was simply a red herring, for it happened in air support circles anyway.

So come on NPAS. - Acknowledge the hard graft that the current units have demonstrated; - express regret that the current financial state of the Country is forcing some awkward decisions to be made. Stop this political spin rubbish of trying to sell the proposals as being an improvent in cover. - It simply just isn't! Untill you accept that, it will be difficult to get anyone to believe you, and the lack of real progress will continue. That will benifit no - one, except perhaps the common enemy, - the criminal.

The service has always been good at making the best of a bad situation, but this one requires leadership! Leadership from a position of KNOWLEDGE & STRENGTH. Then people will follow, and make the best of it.

We can make it work!

Tigerfish

[PANews]

Brilliant Stuff, your comment that 'downlinked video can be fed through the intranet or the internet' leaves me in a void brought on by age....

Never had such a thing in my time still pretty much pen and paper still... but I thought that these Intranet networks were force wide rather than national... am I wrong?:confused:

[yme]

I thought that these Intranet networks were force wide rather than national... am I wrong?http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/confused.gif

It is force wide, the aircraft only needs to down link to the force controlling the incident.

Other forces, and the aircraft dispatch are not required to view whats going on.

[Brilliant Stuff]

PAnews

The chaps across the water in either Norway or Finland they had shown us here in Blighty in our office how they can see the downlink footage through the internet. Cool.

As fro HighDef or SD they come in both flavours but if there is a need for HighDef now that is another question.

[PANews]

I am not disputing that Internet and Intranet is possible, it was just that my understanding was that the [secure?] Intranet tends to be forcewide rather than national and the [more public] Internet runs into security problems. Everyone is arguing over the Brand X encription rather than Brand Y and its being proposed [here - but on behalf of the Dream Team!] to stick it on either public broadband ..... or build a secure highway for it....

Moving both into a situation whereby a central National Coordination Centre could share and control 20 bases from the hypothetical BTP HQ would in itself create a nifghtmare in logistics and [as we return to time again] ... costs that have not apparently been allowed for.

That takes us back to the earlier suggestion by someone on Rotorheads that what exists be Nationised and then the linking be done afterwards. after all 2012 may be the date but some of those contracts do not finish until 2014. I see from Dyfed-Powys that they have tenure on their new ASU building into 2010 and clauses that mean it cannot be a cow shed any time soon ..... there will be others so 2012 will mean little to a lot of the infrastructure.

[yme]

There will be no need for a national network as incidents are the responsibility of local forces, always have been . Air ops will be in support of forces not controlling jobs, therefore no need for a national network. We don't down link to our base now, why would that change?

[PANews]

Some units do downlink to their base so at present all options are available to the new management. I guess we simply do not yet know what NPAS would desire so are left second guessing.

There is the option that they might yet take over wider air assets with other needs and aspirations. Heaven forbid with the ongoing confusion and a clear desire of the military to get out of that market they might end up running SAR!!!!

[wright123]

Rumours doing the rounds at Staverton.

A PAS directors contract was recently terminated and is listed in the following "companies house" reports on their web page.
The PAS listing shows the most information.

Is "PAS's owner" Joep starting to cut his losses with the latest ASU contract news, or is something else going on in his empire with the departure of this director?

Direct employment under NPAS may be not that far away after all.

POLICE AVIATION SERVICES LIMITED of GL51 6SS in CHELTENHAM GLOUCESTERSHIRE (http://www.companiesintheuk.co.uk/ltd/police-aviation-services)

http://directors.mapofpower.com/companies/02799272

SPECIALIST AVIATION SERVICES LIMITED of GL51 6SS in CHELTENHAM GLOUCESTERSHIRE (http://www.companiesintheuk.co.uk/ltd/specialist-aviation-services)

[SilsoeSid]

Perhaps the answer is to make a control room that is already used to operating multiple aircraft at the same time, a bit more of the plan.
Maybe somewhere where the real estate is already available and can more conveniently be expanded to accomodate the needs of a national plan.

Helicopter_crew_never_tires_of_catching_bad_guys (http://www.newsshopper.co.uk/news/8764748.Cop_helicopter_crew_never_tires_of_catching_bad_guys/)

It seems that the national plan is already operating in a smaller version in the Met, did anyone actually consult their opinion, or as it was clear they weren't going to be part of any national plan, they were left alone. Surely they are the leaders in any advancement of Police Aviation in this country.

With this BTP controlling of NPAS, how many staff will need to be employed in the new setup ?$£?
After all, for just one force and 1-3 aircraft the Mets team is "made up of 18 police constables, three police sergeants and is supervised on a local level by a police inspector. It also employs police staff including pilots, operations room staff, engineers and an intelligence officer."

How much more controlling staff would be needed? Of course it would also be convenient to have the experience of present controllers to hand.
Could we utilise the accommodation for servicing of aircraft, using Met/NPAS employed engineers?
Base the spare ac where the engineering work will be carried out, drop off/pick up service point!
Somewhere nice across the road for a 'soup in a basket' pub lunch.

Seems Lippitts could be a solution to a load of potential hurdles. :ok:




I love the article when it says; "Fighting crime from 10,000 feet is a job London’s Met police helicopter crew never grow tired of...
...but it is the pilots, who often have RAF or Royal Navy backgrounds, who have to deal with the delicate task of negotiating tower blocks while listening to six radio stations and various instructions."

[Retro Coupe]

How many tower blocks are there at 10,000ft in London. :confused:

[yme]

How many tower blocks are there at 10,000ft in London

Have to use a bit of Zoom, ATC would be interesting!

The Met are not the only force with their own Engineering. Eastern Counties Police Maintenance also have three aircraft they look after, not beyond possibility that they could accommodate the spare aircraft for the south east 135 region and carryout the engineering for the area??
Worth considering!

[PANews]

yme

No word at all on maintenance, but it looks to be thinking in obscure 'other directions...' the plan moved the Suffolk aircraft from its current base a few miles up the road.... so if said plan had any ideas in retaining that Eastern Counties menders facility it is apparently not on....

Devon & Cornwall appear nailed down to looking after the Devon AA 135 for a few years but not necessarily their own 145!

The SS plan that envisages expansion at Lippitts would come a cropper with the neighbours..... they definitely do not like operations there. They got rid of the dogs [they barked], the guns [they went pop] and that interference saw most of the place shut down except the helicopters. As you may know the ASU thought of retreating to Northolt but that did not work out.

Plenty of space there and 145 engineers but I think those neighbours would even stop even an temporary Olympic event step up in capability.

With a bit of luck :E if the neighbours get the ASU out (and they are about the last occupants of this once thriving site) they will pay the price and find it is occupied by temporary caravan club members that Surrey ASU got on so well with ..... :{

[yme]

I hear on the grape vine, the up the road option for Snuffolk is an expensive option, issues with a new build and communication and a lack of interest from management." Amazing what info you get over a pint"!!

As for ECPM, they could quite happily stay where they are, I don't think the landlord would mind? Just for a change, why mess with something that works very well? :D

Oh, I was forgetting, that is the the very issue! Shake it up let people and bits drop off and appear to save money! Silly me.:ugh:

[SilsoeSid]

Perhaps the solution is in something PA said earlier;

The SS plan that envisages expansion at Lippitts would come a cropper with the neighbours..... they definitely do not like operations there. They got rid of the dogs [they barked], the guns [they went pop] and that interference saw most of the place shut down except the helicopters. As you may know the ASU thought of retreating to Northolt but that did not work out.

It seems that as NPAS has the power to creatre new bases at other RAF Stations such as RAF Colerne and RAF Honington, not to mention the authority to move units to the civ sites at Dunsfold, Southend, Bournemouth and Wolverhampton, the simple solution would be to inform RAF Northolt that the Met ASU, NPAS/BTP control centre and NPAS maintainence facility will be set up there.

Everything at one secure base, locals at Lippitts are happy, NPAS plan on track; Bobs your Uncle and Fannys your Aunt....sorted :ok:

[PANews]

Ha Ha ha!

I wonder whether that presumptive list the NPAS team published was based on anything at all?

We know that certain parts of the plan were never researched [Colerne + fog] or discussed with partners [air ambulances and some if not all police air units] so it may be the case that the presumptive behavior in 'deciding' that various locations will be the future bases may already have put some noses out of joint. I am certain that the majority of the recent moves to the security of RAF bases [by Chiltern and Surrey for instance] will have required some pre-negotiation before any move took place. It is just good manners after all!

As there is a history of police [in general] speaking of their plans before negotiating the detail with the partners there may be a danger that the prospective landlord will be in the position to simply name the price or place particulaly onerous restrictions [on the NPAS budget].

What are Dyfed going to do with their new base until 2020 when the lease runs out? As the base is on a peppercorn rent for use as a helicopter base [only?] who can say what the rent will be for another purpose or even empty? Who is going to compensate the local authority - NPAS out of their money saving plans? Fixed wing seemingly will not work at Pembrey so enter stage left with Haverfordwest....... where?

[lynx no more]

Was in Stav the other day having a brew and heard that PAS are more interested in engineering contracts in the sand pit region rather than police pilotage here in the UK. Was told it was all part of Joops master plan for his aviation wing in the sand pit where the money is.
Looking at Wright's post on PAS's Dec 2010 companies house report, and the LATEST directors listing link makes interesting reading.
The man on the inside also tells me that they are also looking at rented hangars in the midlands with the hope of getting a central NPAS engineering base contract.
Its amazing what news you hear over a cup of tea and sarnie. :suspect:

[B.U.D.G.I.E]

I'm quite sure now we are in 2011 it will not be long until we get the full picture and the NPAS team will have it all ready to lay out to every one......:ok:

[SilsoeSid]

There's more to come? :confused:

I thought NPIA/NPAS had done their bit;
Come up with a plan, throw it on the table and tell people to get on with it, and then reduce the group by 25% (the most knowledgeable member!)

Version 1.01 should be interesting, any release date?
We have 'Windows x', 'Snow Leopard'/'Lion', shall this be called 'White Elephant'?

[yme]

Did the 25% jump or was he pushed because he was too aware of Air Support and how it works?
I can see a conspiracy starting.
Sorry I woke up in a silly mood! I'll get me coat!!

[Fortyodd2]

The 25% left because his temporary contract was up and not being renewed.
Where he's gone is, potentially, an even more interesting factor.

[props stopped]

According to the Durham Tees Valley Airport "movement website"
Cleveland Police have taken delivery of the last of the new bulk purchase 135's from eurocopter.

I believe the figure was close to £6 million role equipped, and the Police Authority councillor in charge (Dave McLuckie) is now doubting its future in a recent Evening Gazette article, as he says he didnt like working with the neighbouring forces from past experience.

I think there may be financial implications for Cleveland Police as they have been told that their budget will lose 17 million over the next few years.

North Yorkshire Police will be happy to be given free use of the same 135 next year, but I'm not so sure what the Cleveland tax payers might think of paying for it all though? :zzz:

[morris1]

assuming the cleveland 135 began production a good 2 years ago, that will make it three years old when NPAS take over. It will therefore have depreciated by 33% by NPAS criteria. So Cleveland Police will be offered about 3 million for it..!

kerching :}

[props stopped]

Which is exactly why McLuckie demanded the old 135 T1 from the consortium when the other force chiefs said there was only ever a need for one a/c in the area.
McDuckie opted to go it alone as he wants to make a few bob from what Northumbria and Durham initially paid for.
Word in the councillors camp is that there is a plan to sell the new 135 and put the money into the new force HQ which he wants to start building asap.
He's already put the word out in the press that he's not happy about working with other forces, and sharing a/c under NPAS....(Evening Gazette).
Will G-CPAS see a years service under its Cleveland reg, or will he blame NPAS for its demise 9 months early.
No doubt the Cleveland authority members will still claim the £200k in expenses like last year, before McDuckie tries to become the new Cleveland police commisionaire.
:}

[tigerfish]

Props stopped. Are you grinding axes proffesionally these days, or do you just have it in for Cleveland?

Tigerfish

[props stopped]

Tigerfish, if you lived in the north east you would know that McDuckie has always had his own agenda which is all paid for out of public taxes, while he claimed a figure close to £100k from all his Redcar council and Police Authority coffee morninings last year.

From experience the shiney new 135P2 would be better served further south in an area which is actually busy like Liverpool. Most jobs in Cleveland are fly the flag missions from experience. Why do you think they never put a mission website online like other forces Helicopter Watch sites.

The old Neasu 3 force consortium "best value team" started looking at the lack of use of the Teesside a/c back in 2004.
By 2007 the main partner Northumbria had decided that the Cleveland a/c just wasnt needed, and one a/c could easily cover the area.
In 2005 they actually proved the fact when the NEASU consortium placed a single a/c at durham HQ to cover the whole area for a few months due to lack of pilots etc. It easily covered the whole area.

McDuckie then demanded the old T1 for his own force free of charge.
He did get a shock from the various pricey maintenance contracts later that year in authority meetings, when he was told that he then had to set aside an extra £500,000 pa, as the airframe and PBH engines were now seperate contracts.
It was now becoming very expensive for such a small force like Cleveland to run the 135, and McDuckie wanted to build the new police HQ.

What's the betting that McDuckie doesnt share the money with the Northumbria and Durham forces who purchased the T1 when the new 135P2 is sold off?

Cleveland only ever put 25% into the large neasu budget before going it alone. It started at less than £400k with the old Islander, but now they are on their own its close to £2million pa.

Its only a matter of time before G-CPAS become's a spare NPAS a/c.
Tigerfish, you should order a daily hard copy of the Evening Gazette, as it's McDuckie's platform for speeches on what HE intends to do with the publics money. Just a few facts and figures.

[B.U.D.G.I.E]

reduce the group by 25% (the most knowledgeable member!)

So where is the expert advice going to come from now then. Will NPAS just log into this thread for inspiration every day or is it going to either turn into a 6mil money wasting scandal or just get forgotten about????? :ugh:

[zorab64]

As intimated in an earlier post, this would appear to be turning into the cluster-***k envisaged. It won't surprise many, but this "new" organisation has shed 25% of its staff and probably more than 80% of its aviation expertise, with no obvious plan of where it's going to get this advice/knowledge from in the future. If it relys upon "contracts managers" & "procurement experts", or even piecemeal advice from current busy practitioners (who will not have the time/pay-scale to devote quality time to the process) the vision will rapidly blur - not taking good advice from an exceptionally knowledgeable 25% will soon prove to be mightily short sighted IMHO.
If this new organisation does not consider a senior/experienced aviator in the top echelons, Top Gun will have shown the way "Crash & Burn, Mav!" :ugh:

Interestingly, there's precious little information on the POLKA site - no-one with any real aviation credibility appearing to wish to contribute anything meaningful so far!

[Wagging Finger]

Interestingly, there's precious little information on the POLKA site - no-one with any real aviation credibility appearing to wish to contribute anything meaningful so far!

Have you given POLKA the benefit of your real aviation experience? Have you asked an aviation question on POLKA?

No, then like voting you have no grounds to complain IMHO.
:=

[SilsoeSid]

Have you given POLKA the benefit of your real aviation experience? Have you asked an aviation question on POLKA?

No, then like voting you have no grounds to complain IMHO.
:=

It seems that the site itself is having problems with letting people into certain communities. :suspect:

Like having a vote, but not being allowed into the polling station!
uk_voters_turned_away_from_polls (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/05/07/uk_voters_turned_away_from_polls/)

[PANews]

Not everyone can dance.

Certainly not the POLKA.

Which is a bit endemic in this sector. Look at PACE and other 'groups' all closed shop stuff, no outside influences allowed in and yet it is those outside influences that often have the knowledge... hands up anyone in this [albeit restricted] audience who is developing airframes or equipment for police aviation.... landowners on airfields where they may wish to operate.... police authority members with an opinion about where local authority buck may be spent ... Members of Parliament.... even nosy journalists etc etc

I expect that was a no.... [hopefully anyway!] and yet people in that range of opinion holders are inevitably excluded from the deliberations on a whole range of police information forum's... and then when 'The Plan' [whatever it is] is published a whole tranche new views are presented that turn the whole thing on its head.

Why wasn't the Supt. Jonathon R Roy penned Hogan-Howe NPAS report given a wider circulation to sort out the bits that people missed first time about?

No-one knows everything and its clear the POLKA isn't working either. I would like to say this from experience but I have never seen it and do not know anyone who has a copy to even say whether it took 10 pages or 100 to get it 'not right'..... I had the temerity to ask ACPO for a copy now its a year old and the answer was a predictable 'No' .....

Yes OK .... I know why should I?

No doubt the slightly reconstituted 'Dream Team' are at a loss to answer why their word is not being taken as gospel.

This is is not National Defence, this is police work so why secrets?

[Fly_For_Fun]

Does anyone know who will take up the aviation expert/pilots desk on this project now that OD has left?

[B.U.D.G.I.E]

no one...thats the problem....:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

[PANews]

Not sure that is correct BUDGIE... but as part of my head scratching on this whole project I am wondering whether the team may be due for another deletion soon.

The prospectus for the National Air support Project Leader job that Richard Watson got about a year ago seems to suggest that the post was only for 11 months and that must be just about expired.

An extension seems likely.... :confused:

[Fly_For_Fun]

I can't believe that at a stroke of the pen they decided that the work OD was doing is no longer worthy. And getting rid of another member of the team without replacements (suitably qualified) is crazy. All that will be left to get this thing working in the right way is a couple of civil servants, and we all know how smart they can be! :ugh::ugh::ugh:

[What Limits]

No, what you really need are Consultants, me me me !

[Clyde Parthangel]

Hiya PANews,

Actually, my colleagues and I are developing airframes and equipment for police aviation. I have to agree though, it is a bit of a closed shop and getting people to take us seriously is a problem. If anyone wants to know a bit more or thinks they might be able to help us out, please feel free to pm.....

[SilsoeSid]

With dates getting nearer ;)

Any ideas on type, colour, supplier of flight coveralls for the crews?
Will we have a standard set of 'wings'?
Gold or platinum shoulder bars?
Crevats or roll necks?

I can see myself in this;

http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/1599/usnpilotlttremelmf5.jpg

;)

[handysnaks]

I bet Mrs Sid can't though:p

[SilsoeSid]

I can see myself in this;

I bet Mrs Sid can't though

I used to have one like that, but a different colour ;)

[J.A.F.O.]

Many years ago I had one like that, I picked it up at the USAF base outside Frankfurt; very nice, much better than the English ones I'd had before that, but a bit of a tight fit, if I remember rightly.

[SilsoeSid]

Blimey, this is going to be a long journey my friends :zzz:


http://www.hampshirepoliceauthority.org/item_9_air_support_unit_regional_consortium_update.doc

Pre-existing contractual agreements for police air support services will have to be factored into plans. The current understanding is that the implementation of such a service will start in 2012, and will progress in stages to full completion in 2022.

[Fly_For_Fun]

Sid, although I don't doubt that this will be a long process, the doc was dated Nov 2009 and a lot has changed since then. In my view there will be a period of regional collaborations before the National model will be implemented in full, and this could take years. So bases will move and some will close in line with contracts running out or being ended, and more consortiums being formed with a long term view of National Air Support evolving from theses consortiums. I would have put the time frame at 5 years rather than 10, but who knows?

As far as flight suits are concerned, does Lycra come in a fire retardant form?:cool:

[Coconutty]

Can't quite make out the embroidery on that suit "-----lingus" ?

And why does it look like someone's pointing a sawn off shotgun at her,
has she already been seconded to NPAS ? :eek:

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[SilsoeSid]

Ok FfF we'll see :rolleyes:

How about this then?

BBC News - New service to provide police helicopters (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11627331)
In August (2010) the chairman of the Hampshire branch of the Police Federation, John Apter, warned about plans to merge the force's helicopters with those of Sussex and Surrey.

He said: "I'm confident the service won't be badly affected, but we have to accept that in reducing from three to two aircraft, there has got to be a level of service that is diminished. The service I hope we will obtain will be adequate but it's clearly not the Rolls-Royce service we've been used to."

I wonder how he now feels having learnt just 2 months later from the future leader of NPAS, Hampshire Police Chief Constable Alex Marshall, who spearheads the proposals that under the plans, "Sussex and Surrey would reduce to one aircraft, combine and relocate to a new base at Dunsfold".


Maybe he could be feeling that this will be a Skoda level of service that he'd better get used to. :ooh:

[J.A.F.O.]

Trabant might be closer to the mark, Sid.

[SilsoeSid]

I think a Trabby has a bit more kudos than a Skoda ;)

[PANews]

A slight update on the Apter position.... after expressing disquiet on comments relating to the above appearing in a certain magazine a letter from him was run in the November issue...

Dear Sir
I have [read] an article which appeared in the September issue of your magazine. The article commented on the loss of Hampshire dedicated Air Support Unit and went on to comment about my reaction.
For the record I attended a number of meetings and a presentation at the Police Authority with regard to the business case around the collaboration between the three forces. What became clear to me was that because of the differences of ability between the fixed wing and rotary there was concern that there could be a more limited cover in certain parts of the force area such as the IOW and the New Forest. I raised these issues and was advised that measures were being looked at which would prevent this from occurring.
I have always maintained that reducing three air craft across four counties to two would not provide a better service as was suggested by some, but from the business case presented I had to accept it would be an adequate service, and that £8 million in savings was a significant amount. I am therefore convinced by the savings, but reducing the service to an acceptable level is a backwards step and is a sad day for Policing. As you will appreciate, I am not the decision maker, and I am certainly no expert in air support so I have to take on face value the content of the business case, and hope the information contained within it is factual and has been fully consulted.
In relation to the concerns raised I have put the Police Authority and the Chief Constable on notice that I will be monitoring the coverage of Air Support over Hampshire and the IOW under the new consortium and will highlight any issues we find.
I found the article made massive assumptions about my involvement and I would ask that so the views of the Police Federation are not misrepresented you publish a correction in your next article.
Kind regards
John Apter
Chairman
Hampshire Police Federation

I followed this up in the light of developments last month but have had no reply yet.

[zorab64]

Have you given POLKA the benefit of your real aviation experience? Have you asked an aviation question on POLKA?

No, then like voting you have no grounds to complain IMHO.

Wagging Finger - you are correct in what you say, however, since this is an anonymous forum for those who wish to maintain such a profile, anyone who had posted on POLKA would, IMHO, be foolish to confirm or deny the fact on this forum. :oh:
My comments were based on the fact that, of the few & infrequent comments on POLKA, there was nothing of substance, either questions or answers.

There are many who post here who, over time, have let more slip than they might wish, to maintain anonimity. Some might consider taking more care. :ok:

[500e]

Is that a warning or a Warning

[zorab64]

500e - if your question is to me, I'm not (W)warning anyone, just reminding contributors that continued anonimity in this environment (if desired) means being vigilant over the content of every post made! Not doing so could "out" the poster and leave him/her vulnerable in other areas/forums, I'd suggest?

Kind regards
Jed

whoops . . . :eek:

[SilsoeSid]

Oh dear does that mean that we shouldn't contribute to the rotorheads calendar or the rotorhead around the world (videos or round the world) threads? Heaven forbid the photos of everyone thread or even give advice on any specific area or subject on PPRuNe.

Here's me worrying that people thought what I say wasn't based on some user knowledge or background, no matter which way one reads my posts. ;)
Perhaps those that relish the anonymity shouldn't be so touchy when others don't take their words as gospel.


Rumour has it that the question;

'Is it true that NPAS will be creating 24 new managerial posts and that the pay scales of those posts have already agreed, before any of the Air Operation factors such as aircraft, pilotage, bases, unit management and maintenance have been finalised ?

... was removed from the 'community' ?



NPIA will be phased out by 2012 (http://www.publicservice.co.uk/news_story.asp?id=13600) ... 24 jobs created in NPAS by 2012 :suspect:

[Wagging Finger]

I can say in response to the quote

Rumour has it that the question;

'Is it true that NPAS will be creating 24 new managerial posts and that the pay scales of those posts have already agreed, before any of the Air Operation factors such as aircraft, pilotage, bases, unit management and maintenance have been finalised ?

... was removed from the 'community' ?

Nothing of the like has been removed from any of the POLKA aviation communities. and I know this as a FACT and not a rumour.
:=

[Digital flight deck]

Crikey, what did we do before the NPIA? I mean, if there aren't enough people to achieve that goal in the Home Office, all 55 UK police forces, Her Majesty's Inspectorate of Constabulary, the Association of Chief Police Officers, the Association of Police Authorities, the Police Advisory Board for England and Wales, the Chief Police Officers' Staff Association, or the Police Superintendents Association... then surely it's a lost cause.
Nat Behan - Southampton

Sorry, a little off thread, but I thought this was quite amusing.

[SilsoeSid]

Censorship
I can say in response to the quote

Quote:
Rumour has it that the question;

'Is it true that NPAS will be creating 24 new managerial posts and that the pay scales of those posts have already agreed, before any of the Air Operation factors such as aircraft, pilotage, bases, unit management and maintenance have been finalised ?

... was removed from the 'community' ?
Nothing of the like has been removed from any of the POLKA aviation communities. and I know this as a FACT and not a rumour. :=


Thanks :=
Well I guess the rumour of censorship on POLKA was a 'rumour' after all.

However thanks for the confirmation that the management structure part of the orbat has been sorted in detail before the rest of the Police Aviation community as a whole has really been thought of.

[SilsoeSid]

Item 8 is interesting;
PIR (http://www.kentpoliceauthority.gov.uk/Upload/AssetArchive/PublicMeetings/AuditGovernance/June2010/Item%2023%20PIR%20Minutes.pdf)

[PANews]

I realise that this is a pretty old document but the item reacting to the 'travelling time' query [from the further reaches of the supporting Consortium] suggests that the so called 20 minute rule is pretty much a non-starter in as far as it refers to air support in Kent. It suggests that the actual support is either going to be pre-planned or a long term 'seige event' rather than reactive instant like a car chase.

No wonder they had this idea of moving the Essex aircraft to Southend under NPAS...... Closer to Kent of course but somewhat of a wet transit route across the Thames Estuary for call in eastern Kent. Floatation devices or a major coast hugging diversion potentially required.

[Digital flight deck]

PA News, wet feet are not an issue given the new PAOM limit of 10 mins at cruise (20 nm) away from shore, as I understand it.

[Digital flight deck]

Sid, not sure but I think a 10 year PC is on about 40k, so I don't think earning less than an observer would grab many pilots. In fact you can earn that as delivery driver not on shifts, and 36k was being paid 12 years ago when I started this game.
You would not have something to do with HR at the home office would you? ;)

[SilsoeSid]

When, on log in, the verification image is the same as your password, it's time to wonder who is watching. :suspect:


Anyway, before all this, I think we were all going in the right direction with regional borderless ops being setup all around the country.
But then we were told a different set of directions;

tShsE98II94

[PANews]

I see from the news that ACPO has been put in its place [as a private company] after the little problem of it sending police officers out on lengthy MI5 type jobs .... it seems that this type of operation is not what is seen as 'correct' for police officers to undertake.

Just how many steps forward from that is ACPO deciding what shape NPAS is to take without consulting the Police Authorities first? Already we have heard from Cleveland that it is a little frowned upon.... and I am aware of others less public.... if this catches on UK air support will go back 40 years and lie in the hands of Sky Watch CAP....:{

Maybe, after being despised for so long, the little [now organised and self regulated] groups trying to get the police flying around in one seat autogyros will have their day purely because the police have failed to run a decent drinking session in the brewery! :confused:

[standby standby]

The Document form Kent is quite dated now the problem isnt just the transit time. The problem is the long winded process in place to request the aircraft and this is between only two forces with a direct line to the office.

A typical example, that I'm sure other units get, is the request to come to look for suspects after a decamp, its when you're en-route you find there was a lengthy pursuit prior to this but the request took so long, its all over!

There is no need for floatation devices on the aircraft, its a 2-3 minute transit over the Thames.

Oh and in the interests of anonymity, my mate told me all this! :ok:

[Digital flight deck]

WOW! Southend to Manston in 2 mins, you must be in one of those autogyro thingamajigs.

[props stopped]

Re Pans commment
"Just how many steps forward from that is ACPO deciding what shape NPAS is to take without consulting the Police Authorities first?"

I think the various police authorities are more worried about who will become the new local police commisionaire in the next 12 months, who is going to be in charge of each force budget, instead of being concerned about their air support and where it will be based. Its all they are talking about up here in the sunny north east.
MPs Urged Don?t Waste Millions When We?re Facing Worst Ever Cuts (http://www.clevelandpa.org.uk/latest-news/mps-urged-dont-waste-millions-when-were-facing-worst-ever-cuts)

Their have been some interesting public letters in the local Evening Gazette here in Cleveland, which are all asking if the current local authortiy councillors who are all spouting that there shouldnt be a commisioner, will actually stand for the new £120k commisionaires postion? or will they abstain from standing for the post? I think the various writers quoted here speak for a lot of people here.
Vested interest; Your say. - Free Online Library (http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Vested+interest%3B+Your+say.-a0246828534)


The same councillors who attend the current Cleveland PCA coffee morning meetings have been claiming a massive £200,000 in expenses per year! have not said if they will or will not be standing for the new job as the £120k local commissionaire.
Expenses & Allowances (http://www.clevelandpa.org.uk/cleveland-police-authority/expenses)

Not one answered the letters to say they wouldnt be standing for the job :suspect: but I bet a fiver they all will.....easy money for some in the past.

Lets face it whoever is chosen as the man or women in charge of each forces money will not want to upset their Home Office paymaster, and will go along with NPAS. The chiefs have all been told to make it work, from what I heard.

At least the Cleveland public will have saved £80k per year with the new man or women in charge when it comes about next year.
Will my council tax bill be reduced, I doubt it. :bored:

[standby standby]

Again those who don't do, don't understand how we operate!

This seems to be the continuing thread behind the whole problem :ugh:

[J.A.F.O.]

commisionaire
:confused:

[500e]

JAFO
You know its the man who holds the door open when you leave

[Digital flight deck]

Does he turn the lights out too?

[B.U.D.G.I.E]

That could be the moto for NPAS

Last one out turn the lights off......:zzz:

[J.A.F.O.]

I'm afraid that I won't be able to help with that as I'll need both hands to cling on to the door frame.

[PANews]

Props Stopped, while everything you are saying about the standards exhibited by your local 'representatives' may be true the wider situation still stops at the door of ACPO and their actions.

It is quite clear from what they said in October that the document they issued was a decision taken ... little or no suggestion that this was a consultation exercise, no words like 'we are looking into...' reducing the helicopters to.... basing them at...... this was all 'we will' even where it is clear that it is impossible without the agreement of others.

It is clear that all these decisions [by a wealthy publicly funded and yet tiny group of senior officers and their hangers on] were arrived at without consultation with groups that are effectively business partners - the air ambulance charities and the Police Authorities included - let alone those bodies they stated they were going to foist their air bases on [the RAF and Southend Airport for just two].

If the Police Federation [or one of its members] had done such a thing they would be justly up in arms.

[Fly_For_Fun]

is impossible without the agreement of others

So what are they to do if Southend say "no, it does not fit in with the expansion plans". And the RAF say "no, unless you pay through the nose for the lease or rent". Do the planned base moves stall until a green field site is developed (at huge cost) or an alternative brown field site is developed (at huge cost)? All in all, not much of cost saving/improvement of service going on.

[lynx no more]

Any news on who has been given the latest NPIA pilotage contacts?
Usually firms who have been succesfull are notified around this time for the start date 1st April 2011.
Its been very quiet this year down at Stav?

[Digital flight deck]

I would imagine that some of the pilotage contracts are still running so this may take some interim contracts until all are aligned. The direct employed route may well be the cheapest and most robust given the size of the organisation that NPAS will be. I would be surprised if they went for a selection of providers, and for one provider to source all the manpower to achieve the robust service that NPAS would require (leave, sickness, etc guaranteed cover), I think would be a tall order.

[B.U.D.G.I.E]

I might be wrong but are the contracts not usually due in april with the main companies. Then if the pilots are contracted say from july with the company and the company no longer has a police contract. If they keep the july pilot in a job no breech.

But I guess its never that simple:ugh:

[Digital flight deck]

I expect that some may be for more than 1 year, but as you say it's never simple.

[Sulley]

What happens to those already directly employed ? There isn't a contract to either expire or take over.

[wright123]

The current NPIA pilotage contracts are all listed to run out on 1st April 2011 with no extensions listed.

Usually the company who have won the contract are told about 3 months early to give them time to have the staff in place for the April start date.
The current pilotage is listed on the following NPIA webpage.

NPIA: Contract Register (http://www.npia.police.uk/en/14784.htm)

I have heard Joep may be looking to the sand pit for his further contracts now the brits know whats been going on in his empire. :suspect:

[capt tosspot]

If any UK police pilots are getting twitchy there is a post for someone with 412 time going out in the UAE I believe. Lexington Security Group need a line pilot for a short term, well paid contract. Lots of sun which would make a nice change. Drop them a cv via the website.

[tigerfish]

Cmon Guys, UK Police Aviation is worth saving! We were the best, and despite this lot being determined to throw it all away, we can save it!

I have a feeling that unlike Custers last stand, the cavalry might yet come riding over the hill! So - fix bayonets, form a square, face outward, and don't give an inch.

We can beat them, and the best way is to stand together. DO NOT give up and move away. You are the finest, you know your patch, and above everything else you know your job,- your knowledge and experience has much value. stick with it!

Tigerfish

( Ol Grumpy, & Uncle to King Canute - and my feet are not even damp yet! )

[Digital flight deck]

This thread seems to have gone a bit quiet. Are all the problems now sorted out, everyone on side and ready for the 1st April when it all starts? I assume that most pilots are employed on a 3 month notice period, have any been given the word yet on any closures that will be immediate?

[Fly_For_Fun]

DFD

I don't think that any of this is sorted out completely yet and doubt very much that any closures/redundancies will be immediate. As far as those who are moving, I suppose that is the least painful part of this process, so may be rather faster to achieve.
Who knows, I expect that the chaps concerned are bit like mushrooms.

[PANews]

With ACPO - the main promotors of this plan - currently under fire from all directions on various funding issues I suspect that they are currently distracted from further comment on NPAS. Meanwhile their members arrange for the closure of a few more police stations, employ volunteers rather than professionals and produce books on how to ride a bicycle.... much more mundane diversionary tactics....

NPAS remains quietly plugging on but sitting under threatening clouds and pretty much [officially] silent for three months now. Fortunately with SAR-H exploding brightly on the horizon the pressure is off for a few days!

[Digital flight deck]

As I understand it, 1st April 2011 is the starting date, so out of the blocks they go so to speak. Surely there is a plan of sorts, and to instigate it [on 1st April] units have to be told what the aims are, situation general outline, execution, order of march, etc, etc, at least those who are at the forefront of the new order.

[PANews]

I know 'things' will happen in the meantime [like delete Hampshire ASU] but the date given in the October 2010 Press Release is not this April.

The government has expressed a commitment to establishing NPAS by April 2012. An ACPO led project team has been supported by the NPIA to develop an implementation plan for this national service.

[Digital flight deck]

I think I have just been slapped down!

The government has expressed a commitment to establishing NPAS by April 2012.The operative words are I think ESTABLISHING NPAS BY. My understanding is that it will START in April 2011. Or is the beginning and completion going to be on the same day in April 2012?

[Helinut]

Sussex are just in the process of recruiting a line pilot. No mention in the information of any limit to the term of employment. Wasn't Sussex one of the units to disappear according to the plan?

[PANews]

Not a slap down.

But the thought that this aura of nothingness will be ready to go in two months is daft. I seriously doubt that any of the new site plans could be brought to fruition in the time given [October 2010 to April 2012] simply on the basis of asking the landowners whether they can move into the new locations and then drawing up the contracts.

Just look over the fence to see how long it took to set up SAR-H [regardless of what happened to it].

There are instances where activities move quickly..... the move of Chiltern north from Luton airport to RAF Henlow seemed to take next to no time .... but to expect the whole list that was given out last October to simply fall into place is going to be an expectation too far; especially with some ruffled feathers in the police authority camp.

It will be interesting to see where the Sussex pilot job goes. It may depend a little on how long the existing contracts for the base, pilotage and maintenance are set for. There may be a couple of years left on them and the 'new' pilot can always move to Dunsfold and fly the [EC135] helicopter there [if that is what happens].

I wonder whether they have asked the permission of Top Gear to move into Dunsfold yet?

[B.U.D.G.I.E]

Generally if things go quiet when the police about to make a change it means one of two things. They have not got a clue how to do it, but will do something a boss thinks is right. or they will get some idea of how to and how not to do it. Then go for the not to do it option. Simples. :ugh:

Changes gives the illusion of progress.

[metric]

My understanding is that contracts over about £100,000 require EU tendering procedures.... now before the panics... to simplify this, the HOME OFFICE/PITO/NPIA ran Framework contracts for maintenance, pilotage, insurance and even helicopter and fixed wing acquisition. These Frameworks are in varying states of life at the moment but are all in the late stages of their contracted periods - 3 or 4 years - and need to be at worst extended or at best re-bid as the commercial premiss on which the tenders were run are now a tad old ( and don't reflect a few key issues - ECUK, the recession.... etc) . Its February now...and they could expire in March. I think the Frameworks are run by NPIA now and one would have expected to see these all being sorted out as Air Support is going to need these services in the next few years whatever happens in a 'National' context.

In short... if there is no valid Framework for the particular field of activity needed and the contract is for over about £100,000. Police Force contracts officers are going to have to start EU tendering procedures PDQ if they intend to let contracts with no risk of legal issues.

Please don't blame me for this system .... its EU and has been working for a good few years ...

[Helinut]

Just following up on Dunsfold as an example, there are probably a series of hurdles to a police operation setting up there (or in lots of places). I noticed recently that the HEMS base there just was granted planning permission to extend to night time ops, at some point in the future. The media information was quite explicit about the basis upon which this was granted:

very limited movements at night,
life-saving need,
small extension of existing use.


There is also the question of whether the landowner wants a noisy 24 hr police hele operation. Many will not see the benefit, especially if surrounded by middle class Surrey residents in a County where the UDP says no new aviation bases.

Chiltern had to find a new base when Luton airport kicked them out with very little notice. There are no special arrangements even for the cops.

If you multiply that amount of difficulty and effort by the number of base changes the NPAS "Plan" requires, they will need to employ planners, architects and aviation specialists to move them all forward. Not really a recipe for saving money, even if the moves prove possible. And that is before you actually start building new buildings and pads and so on.

They have no idea what they are taking on....

[Eurocopper]

"the move of Chiltern north from Luton airport to RAF Henlow seemed to take next to no time "

6 years off & on

[LXGB]

Norfolk Police to lose force helicopter in spending cut
Norfolk Chief Constable Phil Gormley said the helicopter service would not be compromised

Police helicopters to be shared
County move for police helicopter
Norfolk Police is to lose its own dedicated helicopter at the end of March, saving £750,000 a year.

It wants to share Suffolk Police's aircraft based at Wattisham Airfield instead of leasing its own from Sterling Aviation at Norwich Airport.

The move is part of £25m cuts agreed by the Norfolk Police Authority.

Norfolk Police will buy in 220 hours of flying time from Suffolk's helicopter, 60 hours fewer than its contract this year.

Suffolk Police Authority has yet to agree the plan.

Norfolk's Chief Constable Phil Gormley said: "We are collaborating, sharing, buying time from Suffolk's helicopter.

'Value for money'
"Theirs is a state-of-the-art machine and ours was a bit time expired.

"We'll actually get good value for money and a better operational capability over the next 12 months."

All county police helicopters will be disbanded in 14 months time to be replaced by a National Police Air Service.

Currently there are 33 aircraft at 30 different bases. These all belong to individual forces.

The National Police Air Service will have 23 aircraft at 20 bases.

This will save £15m from the current total of £66m.
Source: BBC News - Norfolk Police to lose force helicopter in spending cut (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-norfolk-12487163)

[PANews]

There seems to be a slight disparity between the alleged statement 'service will not be compromised' and the cut of 60 hours. Over a 20% cut.

If you or I were stuck in an interview room in a cop shop and gave that sort of statement the cops would rightly be suspicious that there was 'summat up' ......

So why is it ok for a Chief Constable [or his PR representative] to issue such tosh?

Politicians lie and we expect it, so why is it OK for police representatives, those tasked with looking after the wellbeing of law and order, to act like politicians?

May be another nail in the coffin marked Sterling......

[airpolice]

Perhaps, and I am just taking a shot in the dark here, the 20% relates to training that they will not do as the crew will trained by Suffolk.

It could be that Norfolk did 60 hours non operational flying this year and as such, that can be removed without affecting the service provided.


As for Quality of service, what are the chances of a cop from Suffolk (hardly ever away from Ipswich in his service before joining the ASU) being as good at identifying streets in Kings Lynn as a cop from Cromer?

Despite the advances in onboard mapping and downlink, it's hard to beat a pair of local eyes.

[Brilliant Stuff]

Just my two pennies, but I believe you can buy maps of Norfolk which is all the Suffolk bobbies need, I would have thought.

The transit times I would have thought soak up a few hours.

[airpolice]

In.....

the back of the aircraft,

the heat of the moment,

the middle of the night.

There's a world of difference between looking at a map and knowing where the bad guy is running.

The biggest thing that Norfolk can't hire in from Suffolk is local knowledge.

[Coconutty]

airpolice : It's Not a problem :

Didn't NPAS promise a National Air Support Unit delivering a "local eyes'd" service ? :8
( Standing by for "Local-eyeser" related replies ).

But - What exactly IS a "National service delivered locally" ??

The words mean NOTHING - :ugh:

If there is a "local" need for Air Support in an area that has had it's aircraft chopped,
then the "National" service will ( subject to increased time taken from request to despatch )
send one of the fleet, from somewhere else in the Country.
When it evenutually arrives, assuming the job is still viable when they turn up,
they will deliver their service - "locally" :rolleyes:

If YOU were a Chief Constable faced with huge budget cuts, and the "experts" from NPAS
told you that they could save your force a shed load of money AND provide
an "enhanced" service - you'd be daft not to go along with it wouldn't you ?

Or would you be one of the increasing number that are beginning to question this statement,
and ask for more in depth explanations of exactly how the figures,
( that they or anyone at their exisiting ASU's were not consulted on ),
really add up - because some of them certainly don't !

As for Mr. Gormley, I know for a pesonal fact that he is very supportive of Air Support,
but like everyone else he can only make decisions on the "facts" that are presented to him,
but who is independently overseeing the accuracy and validity of the "facts" being put forward :confused:

And what happens when it's TOO LATE, and the "facts" have been proved wrong :eek:

Going back to PAN's latest offering - are there any politicians on theNPAS team ? :rolleyes:

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[J.A.F.O.]

I don't give any credence at all to this "You must be local to the area to police it" argument. You might have lived your whole life in Cromer, it doesn't help you know the geography of Great Yarmouth. Even if you've served for 20 years in Great yarmouth it doesn't help you know they're in the back garden of number 23.

There are lots of pros and cons to all of this but whether you live in Norfolk, Suffolk, Northamptonshire or Surrey makes no difference.

[Thomas coupling]

I flew police 135's for years. Even with the latest FLIR system today which delineates street names as the target ducks and weaves, I have yet to meet a bobby who is comfortable outside his/her operating area under pressure at night on the radio(s) doing the con.
Add to that a shout which requires atleast a 10 or 20 minute transit to their new neighbourhood and 90% of jobs will have gone cold.

There will be a massive surge in transit times and a reciprocal reduction in success rates. This 'new' scheme is doomed from the outset. It is mathematically certain that 24 Vs 30 choppers covering bigger areas cannot be as efficient.
Will you carry more fuel to cater for these extra transit times - no because the new EC135 P2's can't cope with the excess payload in high temperatures. 902's have always had endurance problems from the outset. Is there a long range tank in the pipeline?

What the new world will create successfully is an army of managers and head office bureaucrats trying to invent a new empire.
The coal face will continue to see its coal seams shrinking and the success rate plummet.
For those who do survive in their shiney new world with their shiney new helicopters, it will prove to be a raging success. The past will soon be forgotten and the new KPI's will be de rigour.

[tigerfish]

TC. We didn't always agree, but I always respected your judgement. Once again you are spot on!

Tigerfish!

[Fly_For_Fun]

TC you should read "Thus Spoke Zarathestra" by Nietzsche. I think you will see the similarities of attitude given your prognosis.

[PANews]

JAFO although there is some truth in what you say.... especially where air support is concerned.... there are limits that even a very intelligent moving map will not overcome. Air support never gets true 'local knowledge' unless by chance a crew member actually walked the streets where the call relates to [and walked them for a looooong time, and recently]. Local knowledge degenerates very quickly.

But there are other elements. For instance.... The Met flying over all of London is crewed by officers that will have just a tiny corner of local knowledge but the cracks are pasted over by an association/affinity with those on the ground [same force, similar way of thinking/acting]. This was overcome when they worked with Surrey but it was strained and did not really 'work' and of course they got divorced.

The trouble is the wider the area covered the less the affinity - as much as anything because most forces are very different. Despite assumptions that 'they are all cops' this is far from the truth.

One obvious element of NPAS is that [once again] the Met are doing their own thing and I suspect the shotgun marriages being arranged in the wings are going to be painful for a long time [if they ever happen].

[handysnaks]

no because the new EC135 P2's can't cope with the excess payload in high temperatures. 902's have always had endurance problems from the outset.

Care to elaborate TC? are you comparing the P2i's with the T2i's or just some generic aircraft that can have it's payload increased at will?

Surely any increase in payload normally involves some trade off?

I seem to remember our 902 giving a better endurance than our first :{135. It's pretty much the same as the current aircraft now....

[keep calm carry on]

Having closed Cambs and no doubt in the future Henlow as well there is quite rightly some concern about South Yorks also going. I for one hope they win their case as it does merit it. Sadly the money they will need must come from somewhere hence I have heard the following was considered. Instead of allocating funds to the South East Region for Suffolk to re-locate to Honington those funds will now keep South Yorks in Operation. This will mean no money for Honington and leave Suffolk remaining in less than ideal Wattisham. Once Essex move, Cambs have closed and Henlow follow it is obvious to see the pitfalls of this senario. Consideration was given to closing Suffolk and Henlow and leaving Cambs open thus not only filling the gap physically but also saving the cost of a base move to Honington and keeping Henlow open untill the Met join the party after the Olympics. Seems like a great idea so why did it not happen?? Well I am not sure, it does seem to make a great deal more sense than ploughing blindly on with an expensive move to Honington which will still not totally avoid the East Coast and Thetford Forest weather and only provides cover to some of the lowest crime areas in the country!!
One would have thought that the cost savings alone would provide the answer whilst still providing a practical solution. Given the further suggestion that the Essex base move is cancelled and they relocate to the Met base it would be easy to assume the choice should be rather obvious.
Close Wattisham and save the cost of a move
Close Henlow and save keeping it open for two further year
Keep Wyton open to cover the North or the region
Relocate Essex to Lippets Hill and save another base move where they can join the Met in the regions 24hr super base covering London and the northern home counties.
Sadly it seems those that be decided otherwise, I wonder what their motives were, clearly not money saving as they have led us to believe.

[Art of flight]

The Suffolk/Norfolk thing has been on the cards for at least 6 years, once budgets and legislation caught up with them it was just a matter of time, NPAS or not.

For the uninformed, Suffolk and Cambridgeshire AOUs have been doing ALL of Norfolks real night flying for the past 10 years so there's a fair degree of 'local' knowledge of Norfolk in the Suffolk crews and an excellent working relationship between the officers of Norfolk and the Suffolk AOU.

The P2+ can take around 90kg of extra fuel with normal crew on all but the more extreme summer afternoons.

[Brilliant Stuff]

Well once the temperature climbs past 17 degrees you have to take fuel out of the + model.

[J.A.F.O.]

FFF - Owner of the Golden Camel

[Fly_For_Fun]

JAFO, I'm impressed. :ok:

[PANews]

Brilliant Stuff .... isn't that called 'flexibility?'

All very well having a tiny tank that always allows you to carry max pax at all possible fuel states but surely a tank that is bigger than you need provides the F word when your pilot wants to go a long way alone!

And no ..... I have not just looked up the relative tank capacities of all types we might wish to be comparing so its a dig at nothing just an observation .... dangerous though that may be with my reputation :uhoh:

[PANews]

If it is true - and it was expected - the rumoured shut down of the East Anglia Air Ambulance will have an effect upon Norfolk even making it to April.

The [edited] story relating to EAAA is from a blog signed Mr Whirly Gig:-
Rumours are that the Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) has revoked the Continuing Airworthiness Certificate of the two East Anglian Air Ambulances operated by Sterling Helicopters.
The charity - which leases two BK117 aircraft from cash-strapped Sterling Helicopters - was allegedly told on Friday by the CAA that it would need to look elsewhere.
Saturday there [was] no air ambulance service out of Norwich Airport at all, but it is understood that a replacement operator has stepped in with a single 50-year old Bolkow 105 based at Cambridge Airport.

This was expected late last year and the BO105 was brought in as part of the pre-planned measures. Bond has been suggested as the saviour. Bit of a step down from a BK to an early BO.

It all depends what the trouble is, but if Sterling has tripped up that takes Norfolk down with it I guess.

[LXGB]

If it is true - and it was expected - the rumoured shut down of the East Anglia Air Ambulance will have an effect upon Norfolk even making it to April.

The following doesn't sound too promising...
East Anglian Air Ambulance temporarily grounded

Sunday, February 20, 2011
9:39 AM

Patients needing urgent medical care did not have access to the region’s air ambulance yesterday as the service was suspended temporarily.

The East Anglian Air Ambulance confirmed that due to “operational issues” with Sterling Aviation, which supplies its two helicopters, they were not able to use it.

Last night officials reassured the public that another aircraft would be in place by today as part of their contingency plan and there will be no change in the staffing levels available, although the helicopter will not be branded with the EAAA name.

Steve Whitby, deputy chief executive of the EAAA, said: “Although the current situation with Sterling Aviation is extremely regrettable we have quickly activated our contingency plan to ensure a smooth handover to a new contractor as an interim measure.

“Of course, our main concern is that the charity continues to provide a first class air ambulance service to the people of Norfolk, Suffolk, Cambridgeshire and Bedfordshire.

“Thanks to a strong contingency plan and excellent team work within EAAA and our partners we will achieve this.”

The charity added that the alternative aircraft would have been available earlier but adverse weather conditions prevented all air ambulance activity in East Anglia yesterday.
Source: East Anglian Air Ambulance temporarily grounded - News - Eastern Daily Press (http://www.edp24.co.uk/news/east_anglian_air_ambulance_temporarily_grounded_1_807516)

[Bertie Thruster]

Our new 902 came with an extra underfloor fuel tank and the fittings for a removeable spare cabin tank. We kept the underfloor tank. (+30 min approx) Very useful when positioning for hospital transfers.

I believe the removeable cabin tank is of similar capacity.

[props stopped]

Whilst browsing the NPIA site I noticed that the contract register says it is regularly updated.

With only a month or so to go before ALL the contracts run out, the companies must know who has been given the nod by NPIA, or are there no new contracts?

PilotageAcquisition of Pilot ServicesFramework 01.04.2007 - End Date: 31.03.2011 Extension : None
Companies:
Police Aviation Services Ltd
Premiair Aviation Services Ltd
Specialist Aircrew Ltd

Maintenance Acquisiton of Maintenance Services.Framework 01.04.2007 - End date 31.03.2011 Extension : None
Companies:
Eurocopter UK Ltd
Police Aviation Services Ltd. (PAS)
Sloane Helicopters Ltd.
Fly BN Ltd.
NPIA: Contract Register (http://www.npia.police.uk/en/14784.htm)

[handysnaks]

Well once the temperature climbs past 17 degrees you have to take fuel out of the + model.

That is starting off from a greater potential fuel load though!!:hmm:

Here in my neck of the woods OAT <= 30 degrees OAT, generally, I'm still better off with a P2+ than a P2/T2!!!

[timex]

Whilst browsing the NPIA site I noticed that the contract register says it is regularly updated.

With only a month or so to go before ALL the contracts run out, the companies must know who has been given the nod by NPIA, or are there no new contracts?

PilotageAcquisition of Pilot ServicesFramework 01.04.2007 - End Date: 31.03.2011 Extension : None
Companies:
Police Aviation Services Ltd
Premiair Aviation Services Ltd
Specialist Aircrew Ltd

Maintenance Acquisiton of Maintenance Services.Framework 01.04.2007 - End date 31.03.2011 Extension : None
Companies:
Eurocopter UK Ltd
Police Aviation Services Ltd. (PAS)
Sloane Helicopters Ltd.
Fly BN Ltd.
NPIA: Contract Register

ISTR being told that if the contract isn't cancelled before a certain time it automatically extends for another period?

[metric]

Police Air Support related Frameworks have been extended in the past but there will still need to be a review of the prices which could well be a non-trivial task. The quasi-monoploy status that the Frameworks offer the contractor in some cases can be justified for say the few years of the their normal lives .... but as the contracts enter extensions, the commercial elastic is getting quite stretched.

For NPIA the question will be the balance of work of re-negogiation of prices beyond the contracts normal lengths and of setting up new Frameworks (which seems unlikely).

If NPAs is to emerge, the transition to an NPAS model is going to take several years. In this period there will be need for maintenance, pilotage and insurance and the question I would ask is whether it is commercially wise to countenance the extending contracts and then extending extensions....?

It is worth noting that during the lives of the recent Frameworks, we have seen a Global Financial Crisis, a new Government and a radical new version of the old ACPO Air Support Strategy - NPAS - so I think it is hard to argue commercially that the underlying bases of the current Frameworks are as they were when originally bid.

[hc89]

Didn't read most of this thread but FYI I just watched a Police Eurocopter land at Redhill and found out it is ex police with all the kit still inside, the interior add ons being stripped down and a new interior put in as it's been sold. The handlers were all gawking at the tail which has been burnt from the exhaust during hovering. :eek:

[MightyGem]

The handlers were all gawking at the tail which has been burnt from the exhaust during hovering.
Yep, that happens.

[tigerfish]

Yep, Thats about right! Police Heli's spend a great amount of their time in the hover,( or the tight orbit), certainly a huge amount more of their total flight time than the average civi bird. So I would be surprised if the paint on the tail boom did not reflect that. But do not let that alarm you. Police Heli's receive far more quality time on inspections than the average and these issues are factored in. I would rather buy an ex police aircraft, fully and detailed maintained than many others.
Charred or discolored paint is one thing, a detailed and in depth survey is something else!
Tigerfish

[ARIS]

Bit steep "charred"!! - More like covered in exhaust soot:)

[Thomas coupling]

Be interested to see where all the 'old' 135's go?
Most (if not all) T1's weren't CAA compliant for IF trips, so it would probably be an offshore client perhaps?

Didn't east mids go to Cayman?

Wheres N Wales gone?

[Fly_For_Fun]

wbrodie, what was the reg?

[helihub]

Thomas Coupling

Yes, East Midlands went to Cayman.

The ex North Wales machine 0063 remains registered to North Wales with the CAA note "Potential change of Registered Ownership in progress" but it's been like that since just before Christmas so there's a paperwork blockage somewhere. It's advertised here (http://www.ibagroup.com/PDF/Sale_brief_Details_G-NWPS.pdf)

The following T1 models remain in the UK with ECUK at Oxford:-

G-CCAU 0040 ex Central Counties
G-CHSU 0079 ex Chiltern
G-NESV 0067 ex North East
G-SUFF 0118 ex Suffolk

These are not advertised for sale as you might expect on Eurocopter's Pre-Owned pages (http://www.eurocopter.com/site/en/ref/Pre-owned-Aircraft_194.html), so I wonder what the prognosis is for these. And why is the North Wales one being dealt with differently?

[PANews]

North Wales is being treated differently because the police did not own it. It belonged to a finance house and it is they who are selling it.

The sales of the other EC135P2 aircraft were tied into a special guaranteed price plus deal by the manufacturers so they are selling four. The others of the six sold recently were .... Cheshire was fixed wing and not PX and West Midlands was quite clearly and visible pre-used and abused....

The aircraft are not currently being advertised on the company web site but there are adverts out there in .com land........... and some additional detail is expected to break cover in the early part of next week in .com land.:O

[hc89]

Aris: "Bit steep "charred"!! - More like covered in exhaust soot"

No, propperly charred - crispy bits of paint on the floor

I don't know if it was the police who flew it in but I watched it come in after my instructor did a perfect set down with some charter people in a twin squirrel and it looked like the guy threw it down - came in fast, stopped fast, turned fast and set down fast. (Probably don't know what I'm talking about, to put this into perspective - I only have 9 hours in an R22)

I also saw a similar europter with a shield on the tail boom - would have made sense for the police to have this maybe.


G-NWPS

I did a google and found this:

UK Emergency Aviation - Police Helicopter Gallery - G-NWPS (http://www.ukemergencyaviation.co.uk/G-NWPS.htm)

I have a few pics of it but I was concentrating on the Huey at the time. Want to be there for when it leaves EGKR...

[Thud_and_Blunder]

I wonder if the aircraft wbrodie saw was the ex-DCP 117? The first time I saw that on the ground at Middlemoor I went and had a chat with the crew - I've not seen anything like it on any UK aircraft before or since. Just as described, the area around the intermediate gearbox was soot-black and flaking.

[Flashman]

I think you'll find that the one seen by wbrodie at Redhill is the ex-North Wales aircraft.

[Thomas coupling]

Aaaah. My baby :{

[Phil Space]

Looking at most of those Police Camera Action type programmes it has always appeared to me that the only crooks chased by police helicopters are car thieves and minor villains who always escape jail.

Cost to success ratio does not appear too good.

I have never understood why the police get involved with stolen vehicles.
Insurance pays out and there is less risk to the public with no chase.

In places like Wales and Norfolk the rural crime rate is so low there is no justification for a helicopter.

I'm sure every chief constable would like us all fingerprinted and on DNA database along with 24/7 surveilance:=

[Fly_For_Fun]

I think Phil's gone fishing. :=

[Phil Space]

Not at all.I love helicopters especially B206's with me in the rh seat.
However I pay for my chopper flying along with having to pay for a police helicopter that is often used to justify its costs.

Plod love their toys when someone else pays. You can see that from their car fleets.

When the belt tightens then the expensive ones have to go first.

[Coconutty]

Phil's Pace must be V-E-R-Y slow.

Gone fishing ? - Well catch this .......

Here we go again .........

He obviously doesn't own a car that the "modern day" criminal would be interested in,
so he won't need to worry about the ever increasing number of people who find themselves at sleep during the night,
only to be awoken by a gang of armed thugs that have forced their way into his house,
and who will beat him up and seriously injure him and his family ( or worse ) if he doesn't hand over the car keys,
and he obviously isn't worried about any one else that might find themselves in this situation -
no need to because they will be insured, and the insurance will pay to replace the car, fix the front door of the house,
and heal the scars - both emotional and physical - won't they ?? :yuk:

May as well just accept that we don't need any law and order in this Country and let them get on with it :ugh:

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[SilsoeSid]

Coconutty, I think you've missed the obvious about Phil;

I love helicopters especially B206's with me in the rh seat.
However I pay for my chopper flying along with having to pay for a police helicopter that is often used to justify its costs.

I pay for my driving along with having to pay for the Police cars/Ambulances/Fire Engines that I see out and about....yep, sounds a silly ridiculous point of view doesn't it :rolleyes:


Phil is clearly another envious soul that cannot get over that some pilots fly for a living, in the public sector and for a purpose that benefits society. I wonder if he will reflect on that while waiting for an air ambulance to help him during his time of need, at night in the middle of nowhere ;)

Stolen cars are but a small part of the job and he also seems to have missed the bigger picture as to why these cars are stolen in the first place :ugh:

[Whirlygig]

Insurance pays out and there is less risk to the public with no chase.Well that's alright then .... everyone can pay higher insurance premiums instead. :ugh:

Cheers

Whirls

[Phil Space]

Surely this cannot be the SilsoeSid that was having a go at the 'Round the World' gyro attempt a few years back because there was some free flying involved via sponsorship? Seven years have gone by since Global Eagle.

So has he tempered his style? Read on...
Phil is clearly another envious soul that cannot get over that some pilots fly for a living, in the public sector and for a purpose that benefits society.
I cannot see how a police helicopter in East Anglia benefits me anymore than a speed camera or the bin stasi:hmm:

I wonder if he will reflect on that while waiting for an air ambulance to help him during his time of need, at night in the middle of nowhere

I am more than happy to have more of these. But let me underline that most are charities that cost the person in the street nothing.We are talking police helicopter budget cuts here not air ambulance. It is nigh impossible to enjoy a quite drink by the Thames in central London without having a police helicopter hovering above.

Stolen cars are but a small part of the job and he also seems to have missed the bigger picture as to why these cars are stolen in the first place

What bigger picture? I guess for the spotty youths who steal them and the police air support unit to get on Police Camera Action:ok:

Sophisticated thieves who target high end cars have never appeared on those shows.

If the police helicopters did more why do we never ever see footage other than juveniles stealing motorbikes and cars and leading the police through a merry chase that ends on a council estate?

The culprits then goes through the magistrates courts to be released to do it again:=

If I can choose I want an end to speed cameras and high cost patrol cars,helicopters,bulletproof vests and all the other toys and a return to proper policing with bobby's on the beat.

If SilsoeSid cannot get a Bond job then perhaps he should think about calling it a day.

[Whirlygig]

If the police helicopters did more why do we never ever see footage other than juveniles stealing motorbikes and cars and leading the police through a merry chase that ends on a council estate?Because this is what a TV producer deems to be good telly. :rolleyes:

Cheers

Whirls

[Phil Space]

WhirlygigQuote:
If the police helicopters did more why do we never ever see footage other than juveniles stealing motorbikes and cars and leading the police through a merry chase that ends on a council estate?
Because this is what a TV producer deems to be good telly.

Cheers

Whirls

I've spent a long time in tv and can tell that is not the case.

The reason you see a lot of the same footage on all those programmes is because that is all that exists.Once you have seen the car going off the road and crossing the cornfields or a vehicle going over a stinger but still driving on the rims you have seen it all. 99% of police video is utter garbage.

I am not having a go at helicopter pilots but at the waste of public money by plod.
Just take a look at some of those Essex police 'reality' tv shows where they focus on the cars and drivers.

[J.A.F.O.]

Phil

Please don't base your arguments on what you've seen on Chopper Coppers, it's not real, it's the telly.

Vehicle pursuits account for one or two percent of the work of your local police helicopters, I believe that they are an important 1 or 2%, but that's all it is.

It is nigh impossible to enjoy a quite drink by the Thames in central London without having a police helicopter hovering above.

Ah, diddums, sorry if keeping people safe in any way interrupted your enjoyment.

I cannot see how a police helicopter in East Anglia benefits me anymore than a speed camera

Ask the speed camera to find granny when she gets lost and confused in an East Anglian field some day.

Phil, I know you're fishing and I've nibbled ever so slightly but I can't help challenging drivel wherever it's found.

[SilsoeSid]

Yee ha !!

Phil;

Read the whole Glogal Eagle thread ;)

I cannot see how a police helicopter in East Anglia benefits me anymore than a speed camera or the bin stasi :hmm:
I guess then that you were fortunate not to be involved with the 1,318 tasks undertaken by the ac in 2009/10 then. I would hazard a guess that there were at least 3,000 or so people in your area glad of it.

But let me underline that most are charities that cost the person in the street nothing.We are talking police helicopter budget cuts here not air ambulance.

Read my post...I say again "while waiting for an air ambulance to help him during his time of need, at night in the middle of nowhere."
Read East Anglia Air Ambulance thread ;)

What bigger picture?
Thank you for proving your ignorance :ok:

Sophisticated thieves who target high end cars have never appeared on those shows.
Because if it's not on TV it doesn't happen does it :ugh:

If the police helicopters did more why do we never ever see footage other than juveniles stealing motorbikes and cars and leading the police through a merry chase that ends on a council estate?
Because there is a real world out there not on TV :rolleyes:


I want an end to speed cameras and high cost patrol cars,helicopters,bulletproof vests and all the other toys and a return to proper policing with bobby's on the beat.
And the bad boys want an easier way to do their business with no fear of being apprehended. :ugh:

The culprits then goes through the magistrates courts to be released to do it again
And your solution is not to bother arresting anyone in the first place.
Phil for Home Secretary :ok:
FFS

[Phil Space]

Ask the speed camera to find granny when she gets lost and confused in an East Anglian field some day.

Well if that is the USP for an expensive bit of kit then there is scope for tagging people over 65.Another alternative is to use the Air Ambulance.

Much as I love flying I resent paying for toys.

Spool back 20 years ago and there were no police air support units. If someone went missing in the mountains of North Wales the RAF were called out.

Large tracts of the UK are rural with little or no crime.

[Phil Space]

SilsoeSid

I read the Global Eagle thread several years ago but what were you doing apart from having a go? At least they tried.

More money should go to the RAF who have done a great job on search and rescue for decades.

Police budgets need to be spent on plod on bikes in the local community.

[Whirlygig]

If someone went missing in the mountains of North Wales the RAF were called out.And who pays for that? Ah yes, the taxpayer; the same taxpayer who pays for the police helicopter.

plod on bikes in the local community.Yeah, great. I have some miscreant trying to jemmy my Alfa and I have to wait for Officer Dibble to cycle the 7 miles out of Dereham? Or even the 3 miles from the next hamlet? Very forward-thinking. :rolleyes:

Cheers

Whirls

[Phil Space]

Whirlygig

If someone went missing in the mountains of North Wales the RAF were called out.
And who pays for that? Ah yes, the taxpayer; the same taxpayer who pays for the police helicopter.
No. The RAF is paid out of the defence budget. The police helicopter is paid out of the community charge.
plod on bikes in the local community.
Yeah, great. I have some miscreant trying to jemmy my Alfa and I have to wait for Officer Dibble to cycle the 7 miles out of Dereham? Or even the 3 miles from the next hamlet? Very forward-thinking.

If some 'miscreant trying to jemmy my Alfa' is your problem then a call to Norfolk police HQ will not get the helicopter overhead in minutes. You'll be lucky to see a plod at all. They will want you to call in to a local police station during opening hours and report the crime.You then get a crime number and a letter from victim support.

If the chopper was dispatched to car crime the numbers would not add up. You can get several old Alpha's for the cost of an hour with the air support unit.

Now perhaps you can point me to all the crime hotspots of Norfolk where only a helicopter will do to relate info to plod on the ground.I'm sure big chunks around Wells and Sheringham could do with police airboats like they have in the Everglades to counter drug and people smugglers:ok:

[Whirlygig]

No. The RAF is paid out of the defence budget. The police helicopter is paid out of the community charge.Seeing as you like to be pedantic and split hairs, the Community Charge was abolished some years ago and it's now called Council Tax.

However, the fact remains, it's still a tax and the people who pay it are called "taxpayers".

Bored now. :zzz:

Cheers

Whirls

[SilsoeSid]

Sorry for the delay in coming back, but we've just returned from searching for a missing child in a rural area.

In the space of 30-40 minutes we searched the back/front gardens, ponds, lakes streams, churchyards, car parks, driveways, paths, bridleweays, woods, sports pitches and playgrounds of 2 villages, the countryside, lakes ponds, woods highways, byeways and fields and hedges in the countryside within a 3 mile radius.

I wonder how long it would take ground based officers to do the same?

Result...Child found...but then again as it didn't impact on Phils life at all, it counts for nothing.

I think I've made my point.
'Scuse me, just off to look for a bike and its rider that has just done something particularly nasty.

Phil, have another chill pill and stay safe ;)

[Fly_For_Fun]

JAFO, careful with the high blood pressure mate.

Phil, not sure why the bitter and twisted attitude, but you really should stop talking about something you know nothing about, but please ask any questions you may feel would enhance your knowledge of something you know nothing about, and as we have the good old freedom of speech please feel free to comment at will about something you nothing about.

[J.A.F.O.]

Well if that is the USP for an expensive bit of kit then there is scope for tagging people over 65.Another alternative is to use the Air Ambulance.

Oh, now I know you're taking the pi$$.

http://www.honda-forums.com/images/smiley_icons/wanking.gif

[hc89]

Will they take the extra weights out of the tail if all of the police kit comes off? as I remember that some of the heavier observers (100kg+ chaps) couldnt sit in the front sometimes, due to the CofG being off the chart!

I would presume so, the guys in there are constantly adding and taking weights of G-ORKY when they add the camera equiptment for things like F1, and there is A LOT of stuff in G-NWPS

I wonder if the aircraft wbrodie saw was the ex-DCP 117?

If you like i can get some pics - I'm there 4-5 days a week doing my PPL at London Heli - one of the advantages of learning to fly with the first registered JAR-145 in europe - spent a good half an hour nosing around a little bird and a huey today:8

[Brilliant Stuff]

Phil must be particularly had up if he can not afford the 50pence it costs him to run his local Police helicopter.

I shall leave it at that otherwise........

[B.U.D.G.I.E]

We have not had some one make a public ar:mad:se of themselves for a while.


I've spent a long time in tv and can tell that is not the case.


Got jerno written all over the silly comments he has made....

[Thud_and_Blunder]

'ere, Coconutty, I thought you were the techno wiz up there in the far north (remember, Scotland begins at Okehampton...)

...just right click on the .gif and one of the options brings up this info:

"http://www.honda-forums.com/images/smiley_icons/wanking.gif"

[Mr_G_Box]

Spool back 20 years ago and there were no police air support units. If someone went missing in the mountains of North Wales the RAF were called out
I wonder what it was that I was doing back then.............Oh yes, I remember, flying a Police helicopter and sometimes venturing into North Wales from my quiet North Western city to search for missing people!!

[Ye Olde Pilot]

Hughes 500
So BUDGIE its your train set and you have to cut the budget, at what percentage cut do you start looking at the helicopter ?
Interestingly silsoe sid has side stepped lots of the points I have put to him, as he obviously is a pilot and only receives a cheque he doesnt have to put his hand in his pocket and just comes up with the argument how good the helicopter is .
I am afraid you and all ASU's will have to defend yourselves very very well if you are to keep the toys. To lots of the public they would prefer to see a pair of size 12's on the beat. To the CC the heli is a big lump of money so is perhaps an easy target for his bean counters, as they are unlikely to ring fence you.
Basically guys welcome to the real world, doesnt matter how good something is, if you cant affod it you cant afford it.

Hughes 500 you make some very valid and balanced points.

Based on the hours flown by Norfolk Police last year of 275 I work that out at around an average .75 of an hour per day flown by the helicopter.Not very cost effective at £2345 per flying hour and I guess a cushy number for the pilots who can sit around for most of the day doing very little.

Reading Silso Sids comments he tries to make himself out as some sort of superhero flying 7 hours a day 5 days a week to protect us from vandals,shoplifters,car thieves and drunk drivers. For most of the petty crime
above the costs of an air support unit do not justify the judicial outcome.

I guess like many of the mostly ex military pilots flying for the police he values the ability to fly the local area in a nice machine instead of flying oilies out to North Sea rigs in all weather with Bonds.

The reality is that major cuts have to be made in the way that public money has been thrown around like confetti for years.

[Phil Space]

Silsoe Sid is worried because of the cuts hitting his pocket.
There will be redundancies:ok:

[timex]

Ye Olde Pilot
For most of the petty crime
above the costs of an air support unit do not justify the judicial outcome.

Very true, however all ASU's have criteria that are applied before going on any task. These can be over ridden by "Supervision" usually against the advice of the crews. Sadly the majority of our tasking is looking for suicidal or "confused" mispers. What value can you place on that?

[jayteeto]

Phil, so you give a big thumbs up for redundancies eh?? I guess you know with an attitude like yours you will NEVER get on to an ASU. You have proved your lack of knowledge very well on this topic.
I recently left a UK ASU because I saw the cuts coming. The other pilots also saw the cuts, but they thought the timescale would give them a bit longer to look for a job. You say that Sid is only worried because it will hit him in the pocket. Once again you show great ignorance. OF COURSE we don't want to lose our jobs, only an idiot would, however you fail to understand the type of person who does the job............. Our 4 pilots actually CARED about what they did. They knew when we were wasting time and money flying mickey mouse jobs. We gave constructive feedback, offered sensible alternatives and at times told people they were being stupid. Ultimately though, a management figure would overrule and tell us to get on with it because it would SAVE him valuable time and manpower to go and do what others here want.......... Size 12s on the beat, not out searching for regular mispers who were actually in no danger.
As for that idiot quoting that pilots would lose their 'cushy number' sitting in the crewroom :mad::mad::mad:
After 6 months in the job, you run out of enthusiasm for sitting in the crewroom. Personally, the days when I worked the hardest were the best days, others agree. Its not cushy, its mind numbingly boring, so lose that attitude thinking that we love it. We don't, OK???
Finally, back to the main reason for my post. ASUs agree TOTALLY that things could be done better and money can be saved. Many agree that nationalisation is a great idea and that bases could be moved to provide a more efficient force. This is an opportunity to make things brilliant. The theory works and is NOT why the likes of Sid is having a go. The reason for the whinges is that they are getting it wrong!!! Cost cutting is more important than efficiency at this time. You CAN have both, they just have not done it. Nobody thinks that ASUs are too important. Think of this...... If you had a choice to save a wad of cash and have a reduced (but as efficient as possible for the money) service, or save a wad of cash and have a poor service, which would you want????

[Phil Space]

jayteeto

Phil, so you give a big thumbs up for redundancies eh?? I guess you know with an attitude like yours you will NEVER get on to an ASU. You have proved your lack of knowledge very well on this topic.
I'm not saying redundancies don't hurt but they come with a package.The other side of the coin is that UK local authorities carry on spending money like it was going out of fashion. The cuts are hitting everyone. A police helicopter at 2.5k an hour is 20% of what a hospital cleaner or care worker earns in a year!
Spending an hour looking for some shoplifting scally in Liverpool or a stolen car in Bootle using a helicopter is not on. Something in the region of 80% of missing persons turn up later.

They knew when we were wasting time and money flying mickey mouse jobs. We gave constructive feedback, offered sensible alternatives and at times told people they were being stupid. Ultimately though, a management figure would overrule and tell us to get on with it because it would SAVE him valuable time and manpower to go and do what others here want.......... Size 12s on the beat, not out searching for regular mispers who were actually in no danger.

Which begs the question what is wrong with a new co-ordinated approach?
That is what will happen in the next 18 months/ 2 years.

After 6 months in the job, you run out of enthusiasm for sitting in the crewroom. Personally, the days when I worked the hardest were the best days, others agree. Its not cushy, its mind numbingly boring, so lose that attitude thinking that we love it. We don't, OK???

Silsoe Sid posts make his job sound like Miami Vice.Is the guy working in some crime ridden part of the UK I've never heard? Maybe more likely the scenic part of the west midlands and watching too many action movies:ok: I guess it's the old ex military pilot thing of every flight becoming a mission.

The business model for airlines is the keep the aircraft in the air for the maximum number of hours per day. Expensive air operations of any sort demand the same but when the funds come from the public purse there is no one saying yes or no before getting airborne.

On a final note we are talking about trying to stop the sort of waste of public money that the MOD undertook trying to redesign a 50 year old airframe to the 21st century by committee.Nimrod:=

[airpolice]

Phil Space wrote Expensive air operations of any sort demand the same but when the funds come from the public purse there is no one saying yes or no before getting airborne

Pish!

Lots of people say no, not just the crew. there is a chain of command which can & does stop some stupid requests.

.

[Wagging Finger]

Phil,
I don't know where you get your figures from but you do show your lack of knowledge with comments like A police helicopter at 2.5k an hour
:=

[SilsoeSid]

Ye Old Pilot;

I notice your quote from H500 is from 20 June 2010. If you were to have read beyond that post, you'll find that I replied 26 minutes later with “Sorry huesey, didn't realise you had directed questions specifically to me. Please refresh me on what you would like my opinion on.”

45 minutes later on 20 June, you will find that I did answer the questions put to me! :ok:

Amongst those questions from H500 about D&C (post #73, 7 Dec 2009), liken it to posts about the plan for the Midlands and you’ll find we are in agreement about the positioning of aircraft ;)

Ye old Pilot;
Based on the hours flown by Norfolk Police last year of 275 ....

Try using some figures of units flying 5+ times that amount :ugh:

I don't think any of us think ourselves to be superheroes, just doing the job to the best of our abilities. In our units case under the Force mission statement, 'Serving our communities, protecting them from harm.'

If that means us having to fly 7/6 hour days/nights in marginal weather, so be it and you'll be surprised the diversity of tasks we are asked to help with, none of which would be classed as petty by anyone involved.

I guess like many of the mostly ex military pilots flying for the police he values the ability to fly the local area in a nice machine instead of flying oilies out to North Sea rigs in all weather with Bonds.
Mmm, I would challenge you to tell us the number of ex-mil North Sea pilots there are, compared to the number of ex-mil pilots there are flying for the Police. :rolleyes:


Yes Phil, there will be redundancies I'm sure, but even I wouldn't stoop low enough to rub it in peoples faces. :=

[Phil Space]

I got it from the figures quoted 3 or 4 posts ago by Ye Olde Pilot.
£2345 per flying hour plus I've added £150 an hour for non direct costs
such as the police observer and admin.

Silsoe Sid
I don't think any of us think ourselves to be superheroes, just doing the job to the best of our abilities. In our units case under the Force mission statement, 'Serving our communities, protecting them from harm.'
That is the old military institutionalism still coming through. I'm sure a nurse
carries the same motivation without the sort of pay and pension a police pilot gets.

If that means us having to fly 7/6 hour days/nights in marginal weather, so be it and you'll be surprised the diversity of tasks we are asked to help with, none of which would be classed as petty by anyone involved.

Rubbish. You are not flying alone and probably have never had to since you soloed.
Try flying a single engine aircraft VFR from Wales to Jersey at night or across the Bahamas and paying for it SS and I think you find out what a cushy number you are on with the latest up to date kit.

If you ever get to spend a couple of hours flying a old R22 with a 20 year old kid mustering sheep in the Australian outback you will have a heart attack.
I doubt you have ever flown anything not maintained by the oiks to number 1:=
Quote:
Mmm, I would challenge you to tell us the number of ex-mil North Sea pilots there are, compared to the number of ex-mil pilots there are flying for the Police.
Quite a lot and many are my friends. A lot of the younger ones leave because of the boredom and convert to flying airliners.

Yes Phil, there will be redundancies I'm sure, but even I wouldn't stoop low enough to rub it in peoples faces.

Not at all but I guess you are lucky enough to have a military and civvy flying pension.

There are low paid hospital and council workers further down the food chain not so fortunate .

A little bit of humility and less arrogance would not go amiss:ok:

[Sulley]

"I got it from the figures quoted 3 or 4 posts ago by Ye Olde Pilot.
£2345 per flying hour plus I've added £150 an hour for non direct costs
such as the police observer and admin. "

Excellent work that's two of you who don't know what you're talking about :E