UK Police helicopter budget cuts

[Coconutty]

Wonder what the last item on the agenda will be ?

"Do we need Underwater Search Units ? " :confused:
( YES - For all the proverbial sinking ships :oh: )

Until tomorrow then :uhoh:

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[J.A.F.O.]

Good luck, everyone.

[Fly_For_Fun]

Yeh, good luck guys. Hope the spys are out and we get to know what is in the offing soon.

[Sulley]

"there has been significant work done by the National Police Air Operations strategists....." :p these people don't even know the front end from the back end of a helicopter!!!
Since before the election, through it , and ever since all we hear in the media every day is we must cut this must save this blah blah.
just stand back for one second and look at the proposal.
Give up your A/C(you know, that one you paid for) and then give us a load of cash to have access to a helicopter when you need one. Now it may well be coming from further away, so it won't be on scene as quickly but can you just conveniently ignore that for the purposes of getting our proposal accepted? Now there have been some comments on this thread about Air support must change etc.... why ?
In the area where I live the budget for Air support is 1% of the total force budget that's ONE PERCENT. For that you have complete autonomy, the A/C is in your force area, tasked within it. AND you can still do cross border jobs. Under the new plan, the National plan ,the contribution from my local force is MORE than they currently pay so where is the saving? :*

[volrider]

No doubt we will be hearing how nothing will change regarding the service being provided with less helicopters. We have heard this before, I always smile ( not that it happens often!) when I hear of the "best value" plans, as always it means cuts and more cuts.

Loss of helicopters + staff + cloning bases = a less capable resource.

it has been said before that the actual provision of air support reduces costs in term of man hours used by ground units, hence freeing up more resources.

The result will mean a better time to be had by the crims and the pubic getting less despite paying more in taxes etc.

I would save money by reducing the number of leeches called assistant chief constables down to a maximum of two per force including one acting as a deputy.
in my force that would get rid of 4 each costing with their PA and fancy car + driver about 250k each!! Then I would look at how much they waste on IT and admin supplies, I wish I owned a company that supplied them with computers. I would be a multi millionaire as they pay 3 times the cost of any sensible person when purchasing IT stuff!
But as always unlike a sensible gardener who prunes a tree from the top they will chop away at the bottom and then applauding each other on a wonderful job as they look at the mishapen mess they have left us with...

I fear once the cut has been made there will be no turning back, the West Mudlands got rid of the horses then sold all the tack off and converted stables etc to other building use, the cost of putting it all back is far too much, if they get rid of bases and equipment etc the same will apply. Time to be a law breaker as the reccession is damn good news for them:E

[jayteeto]

Sulley, this is not a flippant comment, I am serious. The major flaw with your comments are that you are thinking sensibly about the subject. These cuts are coming whatever anyone says, however sensible. The decisions will hopefully be influenced by someone with aviation knowledge. However, they probably won't be. Everyone is having the budget slashed, if the nhs/military have to take nearly 10% off their already empty pot, what chance do air support have?
My advice, get a pair of trousers next size up, place yellow pages down a*se, bend over and wait........

[Sulley]

Jay -non taken :ok: but if the budget is going to be cut where do you find the EXTRA to fund the new plan?

[Lokon]

Airpolice
If its that simple to change the law, then why are you all not flying round in cheap singles?

[Fly_For_Fun]

I just want to know what was said at the ACPO meeting.:ugh:Wish I was a fly on that wall.

[Fly_For_Fun]

Just wondering if any news had slipped out about the future of the UK units under threat.

[Art of flight]

Not sure we'll get any leaks from the top table, but once the bun fight conference is underway perhaps there'll be something. If it's handled properly the management will be able to tell those affected with job losses first.......now any comment about UAVs?;)

[Mr D's]

Given that jobs will be under threat this is not the place for such news to be announced.

It will be announced in due course with those that are in the industry and being affected notified before the public.

It would not be correct for the news to be read here first!:=

[Fly_For_Fun]

Mr D, I am afraid this is exactly where the rumours of what is in store will become public knowledge.

The powers that be will wait until 23:59 on a Friday to anounce anything so they don't have to fend off the awkward questions.

[yme]

As one of those that has his future resting on the results of the meeting, I want to know as soon as possible, if it comes out on this forum then so be it!

[Fly_For_Fun]

yme, do you have any views on what it will all mean for the East of England. I have heard that one of the choices is 2 aircraft covering Cambridgeshire, Norfolk, Suffolk, Essex and Kent. Spreading things a bit thin in my opinion.

[Art of flight]

Tried that, one aircraft goes u/s on Saturday night and you're flying from county to county until Monday morning, mostly too late to achieve anything and looking for fuel on the way to or from the next job, if you do get there without refuelling you get a few minutes on task before going for fuel! It's air support, but not as we know it....still budgets are budgets.

Found an interesting app on itunes for calculating redundancy pay.

[yme]

It matters very little what I think as common sense is not allowed to get in the way of the perception of saving money.
2 AC for East Anglia sounds like the preferred option, but who knows!
What we do know is there will be an increase in transit times results will fall off, flying time per airframe will also shoot up, engineering will increase as will down time (Therefore 5 counties 1 aircraft often no aircraft).
Several pilots and possibly observers will lose their jobs and those that are chopper knockers :) will be a little happier.
Just as long as we appear to be saving money.
Not that I'm bitter and twisted and for the record I am in favour of a National Air Support, it is the way ahead. Just a shame they have to slash and burn to get it.

[Mr D's]

yme, I'm in the same boat but I would rather hear the news from my UEO as soon as it is released than read rumour & ill informed speculation on here.

If someone listed on here the ASU's that are going without that being confirmed by the powers that be what good would that do you?

[B.U.D.G.I.E]

Its going to happen. Not every one is going to like it so lets just wait and see what happens. :ok:

[yme]

Quite so, however if you read this thread, and it's not compulsory, one is likely to hear rumors and ill informed speculation, and very likely the results before it's announced officially.
That's just the way it is on a rumour network.

[Mr D's]

But chances are we will know the actual decision by Tuesday.

If things have gone how the report was leading the CC's I won't be one of the happy ones!

[yme]

The options we heard about may well be way off the mark, it depends on who put the circles on the map and how and where they overlap. When this is announced I have a story to tell about how some of the circles were drawn for an earlier debate.
We all feel it may be our own unit! We shall just have to wait and see. It galls me to think the decisions have been made and we haven't been told.

[Art of flight]

To be fair everything I've heard about these cuts is just rumour, my management haven't informed me that there is any meeting or any plans to reduce air support let alone that I might be affected. Bit odd in these days of emails, intranet/internet, and yes, telephones. I'm sure if these rumours turn out to be true it will turn out that the management did not want to pre-empt anything by adding to said rumours and unsettling the workforce. ;)

[Fly_For_Fun]

It is tragic but this is all about money, as has been said, but the end result will be so useless and ineffective that it will end up not being worth the money spent on it, and costing more because of man hours on the ground doing searches and the like, going through the roof. :ugh: I hope that Mr O D has some say in all this and that those who know little listens to a man that knows a lot.

[yme]

JAFFO. From what I remember the coffee cup was almost perfect!!
Art of Flight. Thats a wind up!

[Fly_For_Fun]

Perhaps all these guys in the East should meet up for a beer when the dust settles.;)

[yme]

Sounds like a plan. Any idea where they should go?

[J.A.F.O.]

Sounds like a plan. Any idea where they should go?

The Horse & Groom on St Andrew's St, Bury St Edmunds is quite central and just down the road from the job centre; that might be perfect.

[Fly_For_Fun]

Perfect. Lets hope not too many people have to attend.

[Callsign Turtle]

You never know, there may well be a silver lining for the eastern units, as there's stuff going on in 2012, like that small sporting event called the Olympics and Ma'am has a jubilee. So the 3 aircraft option may still remain, at least for the sort term, which will give everybody a bit of time to consider their options.

Whatever is decided, a get together to drown their sorrows or to celebrate, I think a number of bevvies in The Horse and Groom would be justified. In any case count me in, I'll be there!

[PANews]

The thing that will inevitably ease the pain is those contracts.

For instance Wiltshire, one of the 99% likely to go, has a contract that should nearly see them through to 2015. It was signed for 5 years in December 2009 - and you may be able to add the complication of the seperate but signed up air ambulance charity. It might be a very wry turn around if it moved from being a police aircraft with ambulance responsibilities to an ambulance that can do police....

Many of the existing contracts will result in the aircraft being around for at least 2-3 years more by which time some of the longer term staff would have been up for relocation [inter division transfer or whatver it is called these days] anyway.

[yme]

JAFFO, can you pick me up on the way through?

[Fly_For_Fun]

So, yme, JAFFO, turtle and FFF, that will be a cheap round.

[Coconutty]

Not long now - I guess that those who are to be adversely affected will be
getting a personal visit tomorrow, in advance of any public announcements :rolleyes:

Meanwhile does the Horse & Groom have a Heli-Pad ( or room to make one ) ?
If it's that Central it might make an ideal location for a new cost saving Regional Base :8

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[Fly_For_Fun]

ASU based at a pub. I thinks that's a very good idea. They could co-locate with firearms and the detectives.

[huntnhound]

I fail to see how cutting this valuable resource can save any money. For years its been well established the value of air support with many highly publicised cases around the UK, where Air support has come into its own.
In units where contracts are in place it will cost hundreds of thousands to walk away from them, especially where units have new aircraft. There is a high degree of experience and specialism that cannot afford to be lost in these cuts, if it is, it will be gone forever. I feel for the people who have given everything to this area of Police work. Worked all the hours they have been asked to, sometimes in appalling make do conditions, all for the "love of the job".
The real winners in all this are not the tax payers or the Police, but the career criminal who will get greater scope to practise their vial trade unabated.
Any chief constable that caves in to the pressure and bins his aircraft is not worthy of the post and should stand down.
Perhaps if less money was spent on the trivia of Policing then the Forces would never be in this position in the first place.
Hnh

[B.U.D.G.I.E]

Well a pub would encourage the workers, and if you wanted the bosses to turn up just build a lodge.:ok:

[Fly_For_Fun]

BUDGIE, shall I put you down for an IPA then?

[Coconutty]

... it won't be an NPIA :ok:

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[Coconutty]

... Yeah I heard about that ....

Apprantly the recipe they used, included a selection of the best Pints from around the Country :

Lagers from the Cities, Real Ales from the Rural areas, Stouts from the Highlands,
with a little red and white wine from the more remote areas for good measure,
which they blended together to make a drink that would appeal to everyone.



http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/NPIAPint.jpg


Problem was that no-one bought it, and it left a bad after taste :yuk:

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[yme]

huntnhound
Gosh. Do you think that's the case?

[B.U.D.G.I.E]

Trouble with it was they smashed thousands of pounds at it, got some one in to brew it who had no clue what they were doing. Wasted a lot of time deciding a name for it only to change it again. Oh and they were going to hold a large party with in the building used for brewing. But oh no they could not organise one.:ugh::ugh:

The futures bright:ok:

[volrider]

HuntnHound missed your common sense approach I guess all us dinosaurs would no longer be welcome at the blue sky table sadly its them that b@gger it up and us who have to make it work:mad:

[tigerfish]

HuntnHound well said! I just wish that some of the Luddites in charge of the changes listen. But somehow I think that being common sense it is a lost cause!

These people have little experience, and cannot see the essential nature of rapid response.

Oh well! Thats about it.

The one good thing is that what we created is well documented, as is the advice not to do what they plan. So when they do it and it all turns to Rat poo, it will be easy to identify the culprits. Somehow that does not worry them, but we must be determined to hold them to account.

Now where did I put those shares in the company that provides bollards to protect shop fronts?

Tigerfish

[yme]

Putting the thread back on top, think I may need it later in the day!!

[volrider]

I guess there will be a lot of nervous UEO's sitting in their offices waiting for the knock on the door, opening it to find a little old lady from victim support offering a shoulder to cry on over the theft of their Air Unit:uhoh:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v208/volrider/comic9c-max19.jpg

On a serious note don't anyone think their unit is safe... yesterday common sense went out of the window once again when they decided to chop the most flexible aircraft in the World, the Harrier. If they can do that it shows how stupid things have become:mad:

[Captain R F Scott]

I think that our ASU is safe. The management are always telling us how much they appreciate the contribution which we make and I genuinely do think that they will save us.

Got to go now, I can hear the doctor coming with my medicine.

[volrider]

Cpt, I think your beyond medicine.... SMT can be relied on to tell fibs....honest;)

[volrider]

Somewhere sometime today I fear this chap will be visiting a few poor souls, I would not be surprised if we get him despite being a damned busy 24 hour unit:{

http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn99/j-man_12/Grim_Reaper.jpg

Sadly we can only offer....To the unfortunate ones. I really hope they see sense and damage the faceless ones will cause:(

http://ny-image2.etsy.com/il_fullxfull.92870498.jpg

[Fly_For_Fun]

All this doom and gloom, are none of you listening to the powers that be, "We are all in this together". Now don't you feel a lot better?

[volrider]

Yeah your right, the gaffers must be really fed up with having to snack on Tesco's own brand of Custard Creams as they make severe cuts to their tea trolleys.... makes you feel guilty doesnt it:E

[B.U.D.G.I.E]

Any ones aircraft up for a big service soon. You may find they don't come back. ECUK save a fortune charging for a service they don't have to do on an airframe now on the market. :{

[volrider]

I wonder if the CC's have been swayed by this little gem......

http://www.excalibur-publishing.co.uk/policesimulator/police_simulator_inlay200.jpg

I would love to see them playing it maybe they are already:eek:

Welcome to Excalibur Publishing Limited (http://www.excalibur-publishing.co.uk/police.htm)

[B.U.D.G.I.E]

is that the NPIA version where in any mode what ever you do it does the exact opposite for no common sense purpose at all.

[yme]

Quiet isn't it?
Too quiet! I can almost sense the tumbleweed rolling past.
Still not long now! :bored:

[volrider]

I have heard from a source... that two in the midlands are safe but no news on the other two yet?? Anyone help any further....:confused:

[Fly_For_Fun]

Horse & Groom on St Andrew's St, Bury St Edmunds. Sunday at 19:30 and bring a shoulder to cry on. Oh yeh, and plenty of cash.:ok:

[Coconutty]

Where did the last two posts I had e-mail notifications about disappear to ?

The one's that said :

Its published then http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/puppy_dog_eyes.gif
and

The Midlands are all safe.
Have they been "modded" - If so - Why ?

So - Come on - someone KNOWS - Spill the beans for the rest of us :\

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[Retro Coupe]

The details are out there, but should not be made public until those who will be affected have been notified. If I was about to lose my job, I'd want to be told by my line manager rather than find out by means of an internet chat room.

[Coconutty]

The details are out there, but should not be made public until those who will be affected have been notified. - Who made that one up ?

If it was my job on the line I'd want to know as soon as possible,
Stuff waiting for my "Line manager" to inform me -
( aren't they all going to be away for the next 3 days ? )

If the information is "out there", lets have it "in here" :ok:

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[volrider]

Agreed Coconutty, if you wait to hear from the line managers you will wait forever!!!
Oddly enough I had "reply posted" notifications and then found they were not there!!

[20Minuter]

I'm with Retro. It is out there - published. Your Line Manager should be telling you - today, before he/she goes off to NPIA tomorrow. If they have not made those arrangements, then it is remiss of them.

[volrider]

Well in our case I won't hold my breath.... is it publicly published?

[20Minuter]

I would say its not publicly published yet.

[yme]

The details are out there, but should not be made public until those who will be affected have been notified.

This is a rumor network and is not subject to such tosh, and my job is on the line! :E

[catchems]

EMASU are ok....look at there t witter............

[Fly_For_Fun]

Glad I won the lottery, it takes all the pressure off.

[Fly_For_Fun]

That £10 will really help.

[yme]

Horse & Groom on St Andrew's St, Bury St Edmunds. Sunday at 19:30 and bring a shoulder to cry on. Oh yeh, and plenty of cash.http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif

Sorry F_F_F, I've just decided to go off to the Isle of Wight for the weekend. Fill me in on what happens and if I need to turn up on Monday!:rolleyes:

[volrider]

Well it seems to be good news for some, not good for others and "sort of" good news for others. I won't name who's going I guess they are already aware though:(
Some will have to move bases which will no doubt affect various pilots and observers who will find the extra travel either too expensive or takes too much time...

oh and

EMASU are ok....look at there t witter............

How sad is that! putting something I assume on their official tw@tter site so all can read, at least here folk try and be a little anon..
Ah well some will never learn:ugh:

[Fly_For_Fun]

I assume that everyone is in the know.

[yme]

I hear it's not good news in East Anglia!
Looks like they will go down to 2 from 4.
Not got the details yet!
This may not be unexpected but is still going to be hard on those concerned. I send my heart felt desire that all those involved find themselves continuing in this pastime we call work, through one means or another.
Hopefully through the full use of changing hours, natural desire for people to move forward and the opening up of other positions in the east there can be a minimum of empty, if no named cups on the hook rack :sad:

:ok:Good luck lads!
Don't forget F_F_F's suggestion

Horse & Groom on St Andrew's St, Bury St Edmunds. Sunday at 19:30 and bring a shoulder to cry on. Oh yeh, and plenty of cash

[Fly_For_Fun]

YME. Well said, good luck to all concerned.

[volrider]

Agreed sympathy to all that have suffered. I am sure we will hear from them, I hope that those that wish to stay in Air Support can be accommodated at the re-aligned units

[zorab64]

yme - I think you'll find East Anglia is actually more like 3.5 to 2 a/c, since the unstabilised Norfolk machine has been Day-only since April . . . so, in many respects, sadly, the writing's been on the wall in Norwich anyway.
Still, knocking down to 2 sounds a bit harsh - they're going to need a permanent spare if they're constantly charging around the region, to more or less effect?! :ugh:

[yme]

zorab64
Semantics!
From 4 to 2 Air Support Units. With the people that are employed there.
Is it Norfolk then? :(

[Thomas coupling]

Liverpool going. S Yorks going. 1 x Sussex going. I'm led to believe.
11 going in total. Hopefully all older models.

[Coconutty]

"If" Dyfed Powys and one of the Chilterns ( Benson ) were another two
that are being chopped, that would make 5 :uhoh:

TC - Who are the other 6 ? :eek:

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[volrider]

Cambridge?

[Ron Fenest]

Anyone know if Central Counties is OK?

[Final Flare]

I believe S. Yorks heli is not that old..... around 7,000 hrs. They are supporting the 4th largest City, not including outlying towns and villages. The transit time from surrounding units alone, will negate the ability for air support under 20-25 mins. Pretty much 80% of all police jobs....Its amazing just how drawing circles on maps using those thick crayons can influence budget cuts.....

[volrider]

CCAOU survive:ok:

[jafo201]

20-25min transit times, add the time delay in contacting the unit and a head wind more like 30-35mins. Result - Area Search No trace!

[Coconutty]

Its amazing just how drawing circles on maps using those thick crayons can influence budget cuts.....

It's not just the crayons :ugh:

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[Tunafish]

Western Counties (Avon, Somerset, Gloucester, Wilts) 1 aircraft based at RAF Colerne.
Sussex and Surrey one aircraft Dunsfold.
Norfolk/Suffolk 1 at Honnington.
Merseyside, South Yorks, Cambs, Dyfed-Powys, Henlow aircraft all withdrawn from service.
Essex to Southend.
Dorset to Bournemouth.
West Mids aircraft to wolverhampton 2 aircraft for central counties.
3 aircraft for spares. 2x135 and 1xMD902

[volrider]

Mr Cameroon and Mr Clagg seem to know what they are doing so I would not dare doubt these very clever folk, in fact I am sure they can cut the budgets of the Police even further.
1: Build all Police Stations on very high hills to discourage visits
2: change the 999 to a secret number
These two changes alone will save them billions:ok:

[volrider]

West Mids aircraft to wolverhampton 2 aircraft for central counties

Not quite right 2 a/c in one base yes Wolverhamton..don't put money on it;)

[SilsoeSid]

UK Police Air Ops - Forward to the Future

'Forward, the Air Ops Brigade!'
Many a man was dismay'd
Not only the users knew
Some one had blunder'd:
Their's not to make reply,
Their's not to reason why,
Their's but to make do and try:
Into the valley East of the M5, South and West of the M69
Rode free the Midlands Criminal.
Air Ops; Once more into the valley they rode
To hear the Battle Cry; 'Cancelled en-route!'


Sincere apologies to Lord Tennyson

[Coconutty]

..... or .....

Yea, though they fly through the valleys ( except in Dyfed-Powys) of the shadow of NPAS,
they will fear no budget cuts: for ECUK are with them;
their rotors and fenestron they comfort them.

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[volrider]

ECUK are with them
At a price!!!!! normally an expensive one:E

[huntnhound]

Good news for the Midlands aircraft:ok: But where oh where is the sense in cutting Merseyside and South Yorks both of which are BUSY air units.
Its a mystery to me:confused:
Hnh

[volrider]

I wonder how day 1 and 2 went on the symposium.....

[SilsoeSid]

Having just read huntnhounds post, I deleted my rant and sought out Ms. Wilcox. As the song plays, follow the lyrics !


So in the words of huntnhound and Toya;

0RnD0eyDQsw


It's a Mystery

Somewhere in the distance
Hidden from my view
Suspended in the atmosphere
Waiting to come through

Sometimes it's so far away
Sometimes it's very near
A sound being carried by the wind
Just loud enough to hear
I feel its power within me
Bells ringing in my head
So often I have heard its cry
But forgotten what it said

It's a mystery, it's a mystery
I'm still searching for a clue
It's a mystery to me
A shot in the dark
The big question mark in history
Is it a mystery to you?

It can treat you with a vengeance
Trip you in the dark
Sirens in the distance
Can steer you from the path
It can lift you to the heavens
Put your troubles in the past
Whisper the elixir
Then vanish in a blast

It's a mystery, it's a mystery
I'm still searching for a clue
It's a mystery to me
A shot in the dark
The big question mark in history
Is it a mystery to you?


Spooky Eh?
:suspect:



When all this kerfuffle is all over, lets have a good booze up!

[Shell Management]

Cutting helicopters from high crime areas like Merseyside can't be sensible can it?

[Lokon]

I think you lot are missing the point, it does not matter who stays or goes you all loose out.
Reading some of the docs on NPIA site etc, this is going to be a National Air Support with a National control, gone will be the local control and tasking and it will become a National asset working in a region and not as some of you think, a Manchester or Sussex aircraft popping down to look at an area of a force without a helicopter.
Wake up and smell the coffee boys, change is coming.

[volrider]

Its a Mystery... spooky that 30 years later it still is abloody mystery!
Was it true Toyah had such a long tongue she could touch her nips with it?? Oddly enough I could have done that for her:}
When all this kerfuffle is all over, lets have a good booze up!
Yep Dawlish sounds good to me mid November I hear a nice sandwich or two could be had:ok:

[tigerfish]

I used to use the 2nd title of "Old Grumpy" and now I guess its " Grandad" But all I feel is an overwhelming sadness. All we fought for, All we sweated blood for to creat, is being destroyed by the Luddite Bean counters.

It is obvious that "The prevention and detection of crime, and the prosecution of offenders against the peace" stands for nothing today! Twenty five years years ago we had lost the initiative, - and we were losing the battle against crime. But the introduction and development of Police Air support, beat the Joy riders and made our roads safer. We also beat the ram raiders, and by introducing a number of cost saving improvements to policing and evidence gathering, we more than earned our corn - but what consideration has been given to our hard earned experience today? Damn all!

Proud and Busy units like Merseyside and South Yorkshire, are being binned, so too are the Bedfordshire and the Cambridge units. It appears that the whole of Southern Wales is to be covered by one aircraft? - sheer madness! The South and South East, Hampshire, Sussex and Surrey, not to mention Thames valley, by two, or possibly three aircraft? No problem, they never need maintenance do they? 20 minute rule, - whats that all about?

Bristol's unit is to be moved to Colerne? Wow! Come on lads, - Joy riding is well back on!

No one in the planning team listened to the importance of the 20 minute rule! Not surprising really, - because none of the architects of this bloody disaster have ever had to cope with Policing before the advent of Police Air Support.

There was a time that I looked forward to retiring in the knowledge that at least I had played my part in in building a success story in the fight against crime. Today, all I have is the black overwheming shadow of rejection and disaster.

Sadly, I think the fight is lost! The buggers in control do not want to listen. They will say that there was no choice, - they had no alternative! All I can say in response to that,- is that if you know you are right, (and I know that in the main we did have it right), - NEVER give in, NEVER give an inch. Do not associate yourself with what you know is wrong!

But today I am too old and tired, and if the truth be known, almost worn down and brokenhearted by the luddite Bean Counters.

Someone else needs to pick up the torch!

Lad's, May the spirit be with you, because somehow it is clear that the "Force will not be"!

Tigerfish. ( Grandad)

[volrider]

Tigerfish, great post and one I can relate to as many here will.
I joined the Police to make a difference, I joined for a career I tried to go home at the end of the shift thinking I had done something during that TOD that had made a difference to someone. I joined when we had real gaffers and bobbies that cared and would do what they could to make things better for the decent people and things harder for the scum.
I look now and we don't have gaffers anymore "managers" they like to call themselves, all they want to do is cover their ar$e$, no more career bobies, nope thats actively discouraged by means of crap pension, they join now for a few years just so they can have it on their C.V.
The last person in power that cared for the Police and respected us was Maggie. Sadly these faceless gimps in power of the purse stupidly think the helicopter is too expensive, without actually looking at the cost savings in man hours of ground units when conducting searches etc...
So Air Support will be pruned and cut back so that the effectiveness will be greatly reduced, but then again it stops the courts getting clogged, well the few courts that are left! Oh and the prisons will be less full, so it must be a success!!!!
I wish my clock would leap forward 12 months then I can turn my back on this and remember the good old days when Gene Hunt was a reality.

[jimbobawob]

I think there are a lot of people missing the point totally....

Air support as we know it is gone. None of us are keeping 'our' aircraft or our jobs. Every single one of us is in the same pot, Pilot, UEO, DUEO, Engineers, Trainers and observers. Every one of us is going to have to apply for the privilege of joining NPAS and sacrifice our pensions and conditions of service (or whatever they end up being)...
Once successful we face a shift where we don't know which aircraft we're going to end up crewing, to only the pre planned jobs where we sit, burning a huge hole in the clouds, invariably over an area we have little local policing knowledge of.
Transit times will be doubled, time on task will be halved, the airframes will be shagged within 2 years. All of that excludes Met and Engineering, and the fact that most "experienced" staff will not still be around.

Whatever happened to locally accountable policing serving the needs of OUR communities...

"Flexibility is the key to air power..."

[volrider]

NPAS
No I think you have missed the point... NPAS are one of the quango's the Govmernet are getting rid of!! I did hear the BTP will be running the show... That should be interesting:eek:

[jimbobawob]

My mistake, it was purely a name used out of convenience to illustrate my point. I don't remember seeing it on the published list of Quango's that were going though ??

[Yevno Azef]

http://i54.tinypic.com/f19ovm.jpg

[tigerfish]

Volrider,

I think that you may be confusing NPAS, The newly formed "National Police Air Service" with the old quango NPIA The "National Policing Improvement Agency". I understand that it was the NPIA that was abolished during the recent Cull.

There was mention earlier of "managers" and leadership, and I think that that is the key to this current disaster.

Shortly before he died, my old Chief said to me "Thats the trouble with the Police Force today, they have managers for this, managers for that, everyone is called a manager for something or other. Who the Bloody Hell's leading?" He was so right!

There are very few leaders today! They are mostly only interested in furthering their own career. They won't risk it by challenging that which they know to be wrong. " Keep your head down, agree with all directions from above, and to hell with the service!" is the current mantra.

Tigerfish.

[Mr D's]

My base is one of those earmarked for closure.

I've been in the job long enough to have seen the Executive make numerous stupid decisions over the years that they don't back down from, and have seen the damage caused to front line policing by those decisions, so I'm not holding out much hope for a reprive.

I just hope that the people making the decisions are fully aware of the implications of spreading the resources thinner, my unit has two A/C which fly about 1200 hours each per year, we achieve good results and because we cover three force areas the cost per force is substancially less than a stand alone operation.

When we are down to one A/C we cover a huge area and are not effective, due to the longer transit times, this is similar to the areas that the future A/C will be covering.

If the exectutive only want air support for pre-planned, photographic and high risk misper searches and other similar slow time tasks then so be it.

We thought we were providing an eficient service and there had been no rumours that we would have been one of the ones for the chop.

To my collegues in the ASU world that have worked hard over the years to set up and develop a branch of policing that was extraordinary which is now ordinary I salute you.

Stay safe.

[zorab64]

Tigerfish, as often, has hit the nail on the head, sadly.
Drawing larger circles does NOT provide realistic cover in huge parts of the country. Overlapping circles in some densely populated areas made sense - cos the crim's are often too lazy to stray far from their doorstep. Making a noise over much of the country (while getting to many jobs too late to make a difference) will NOT bear any resemblance to current Air Support cover, effectiveness or results. So sad to have built up an efficient & effective service - & now what? :(

Whatever the significant capital costs will be of moving so many units around (and there'll be some increased revenue costs, I don't doubt) it'll still be sold by some accountant as "savings". However gloomy & sad it all appears, cuts of some sort were sort-of inevitable & I'd hope those remaining units will find it in them to rise to the new challenges, being thankful that they still have a job! . . . and as for the BTP rumour! :suspect:

Good luck, in any event, both to those that stay & those that go - you'll all need it! :ugh:

[Mr D's]

Yevno Azef I think it will be more like the RyanAir Service, the aircraft will end up being further from your destination than you hoped!

[morris1]

Good luck, in any event, both to those that stay & those that go - you'll all need it!

as someone else stated, its irrelevent which units are to be chopped or not.

NPAS will start with a clean sheet and will cream off the staff from ALL the units. Start getting your CVs ready chaps (chapesses)..!

[B.U.D.G.I.E]

The lunatics have escaped. But sadly there will be no airsupport left to go and find them so they can be returned to the secure units they came from.

Seems the bean counters have taken over from police officers. They no longer want us to catch criminals. Thats obvious as they need to release 3000 prisoners to save building more jails. They don't want air support to be involved in pursuits, catching crims or recovering your 40 grand car.

No all they want it for now is box ticking. So the forces can say the helicopter did look for the long term misper. So when the body is found the forces don't have to pay out to the family. (even though the investigation costs around 1 million) Were not going to chase people in case the crims crash and the forces have to pay out compensation to the families. Whats the point in doing thermal jobs when there is no one left to carry out the warrants. Why go and photograph any thing when we have google and we sure as hell don't want you to go and search for the armed blagger cause if the arv's find him and shoot him then the forces will have to pay compensation.

Ladies and gents there slowly getting the police service they deserve. :=

[PANews]

By virtue of not being mentioned it would seem that Cleveland will continue to exist with whichever aircraft they have on strength. That suggests the new one.

Not being mentioned seems to be the good result in this instance.

[Mungo5]

What's the likelyhood of the pressure being put on the CAA to ease some of the restrictions on a/c type. i.e. less of the IFR twin machine, and more of the single - or dare I say it R44 Police/news variant. :ooh:

For that matter why not outsource the whole job to a few redundant A'Stan Drone pilots. Those little nasties will sit off at 10,000 and watch the comings and going with just as much aplomb as an ASU a/c.

[morris1]

For that matter why not outsource the whole job to a few redundant A'Stan Drone pilots. Those little nasties will sit off at 10,000 and watch the comings and going with just as much aplomb as an ASU a/c.

(and forgive my lack of knowledge) can they see through cloud cover.?

[Mungo5]

(and forgive my lack of knowledge) can they see through cloud cover.?

True.. somewhat of a limitation.

Last time I hitched a ride with Cambs ASU, they could only fly if the cloud was above 1000' - is that still the case?

[Art of flight]

The weather limitations for police flying are found in the 'PAOM'.

The 1000' is a night time limitation, though can be lower in certain conditions such as flying over a lit area, near base etc. Don't forget, police flying is un-recce'd and generally without planning and often over unfamiliar terrain.

The newer cameras and thermal systems can do the job from 2000-3000' at a mile stand-off but as you say the cloud base in the UK often precludes their use at those ranges, and most UK forces cannot afford to train their pilots to IR standard anyway.

[morris1]

Daytime - 300' cloud base and 1KM forward visibility
nightime - 500' cloud base and 5KM forward visibility reduced to 2KM under the certain conditions.

'orrible weather to fly in, but if needs must..!

This is one reason why drones are useless.. they cant operate under such poor weather.
And the reason why police need well equipped twins.!!

[MerryDown]

Pitch in with a fishing comment....Definately!

Which R44 could cope with a mission pod , a crew of three, or even two for that matter, and 2 hours of fuel.

Or are you suggesting ASU's go back to hand held 8mm cameras, crews wearing Police hessian trousers and cardboard shirts/ties etc , to save weight & money.


And as far as drones circling the UK at 10,000ft picking up any movement, yeah right !


Welcome to Harrogatestan/ Sheffieldstan/AnywhereUKstan - 600ft cloudbase and so much moisture in the air, the FLIR sytem struggles at 600ft to see the target area.

Your a funny man !




Next:D

[Fly_For_Fun]

Mr Ds ill buy you a beer at the xmas do and we can both cry into it....cut backs so only 1 beer between 2.

[mickjoebill]

Which R44 could cope with a mission pod , a crew of three, or even two for that matter, and 2 hours of fuel.
The turn key R44 police variant with nose mounted stabilsied IR TV camera and downlink and very flexible comms package.


Downside... no floats, third person a struggle on very hot days, cramped in the back and mission limited to single engine ops.

So a big compromise over twin or larger single with floats, but also should be considered an OK survellance craft (with no rescue role ) in the right place time and weather, startup and operating at a fraction of the cost of a twin turbine.

As much a sit may seem like a good idea to have available a cheaper aricraft available on call, I dont think their is a police agency anywhere that has a R44 police as part of a mixed fleet?


The R44police will be far more usefull if/when they install a MX10 HD gimbal.


Perhaps a model for operating one of these in less densly populated areas in the UK will emerge after the bean counters start examining cost of the new transit times to missions is factored in.

What percentage of jobs could be run with two man crew, single, no floats and MX10?


Mickjoebil

[morris1]

there will be some big old xmas doo's in december 2011 in about ten or twelve locations around the UK..!!!

[morris1]

Perhaps a model for operating one of these in less densly populated areas in the UK will emerge after the bean counters start examining cost of the new transit times to missions is factored in.

Yes but the problem there is....
There is very little work in "less densly" populated areas...!!

its the old 80/20 rule..

80% of the police work is done in 20% of the geography..

North Yorks and Lincs are prime examples of that fact.
Very rural areas with small nice towns = a generally more affluent population = lower crime rates than urban centres.

Funnily enough, thats why the existing a/c fleet are based in hmmmm lets see
hull
manchester
liverpool
sheffield
newcastle
middlesborough
birmingham

as opposed to:
Bodmin
The pennines
North York Moors
Snowdonia
The Highlands
Jersey

You know its almost as though somebody knew what they were doing !:ugh:

[Eurocopper]

"You know its almost as though somebody knew what they were doing"

They did!

Not so sure about those currently at the controls?

New proposals are not yet adequately thought through or costed.

[PANews]

Well Bath must suddenly be a high crime area in the eyes of the planners then!

I see they now have plans on having two helicopters based there!

Bristol was never that violent that only had to have one machine and it did so well that they do not need it there anymore.:D

Planners!

I wonder whether they do parties in breweries?

[MightyGem]

The news of our demise is somewhat premature. True, XMII will go, because of the Northwest Region it is the oldest aircraft. However, I believe that that we shall live to fight another day.

[yme]

If as suggested the units earmarked disappear along with their infrastructure, where does one get fuel in the middle of the night? :eek:

[500e]

Fuel you expect to have more than 1 fill a month, can see you have not been listening:{

[Coconutty]

24 Hour fuel ?

Air Ambulance Units around the Country are looking at going 24 Hrs.
They aren't funded by the Home Office, or NPIA, or NPAS etc,
so they aren't being hit by the Government's spending review,
and providing the Public can still afford their donations,
there may be even more of them looking to extend their hours,
especially now that there will be fewer Police aircraft to help them out
with "Casevac's", so you might be able to get your fuel from them :suspect:

When this is announced I have a story to tell about how some of the circles were drawn for an earlier debate.

Comfy chair and reading glasses at the ready ;)

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[Sulley]

PAN- planners ? not the word I would use !:*

[SilsoeSid]

Only yesterday the local Police Helicopter had to undertake a night casevac.

The Leamington Observer - M40 crash - four injured (http://www.leamingtonobserver.co.uk/news28419.html)

M40 crash - four injured

FOUR people were rushed to hospital following a crash on the M40 near Gaydon in the early hours of Monday morning.
It is thought a car ploughed into another which had stopped or broken down. Three of the people hurt are believed to have been out of the car at the time.
Three ambulances raced to the accident between junctions 12 and 13 shortly after midnight. The fire service and police also attended.

A West Midlands Ambulance Service spokeswoman said: “On arrival at the scene, crews found firefighters giving first aid to four casualties following a road traffic collision involving two cars.
“Three occupants from one of the vehicles are believed to have been out of the car when the incident happened.

“The first casualty, a man, was found to have suffered a serious head injury. Due to the serious nature of the injury the man was given an anaesthetic on scene. He was immobilised using a neck collar and spinal board before being airlifted to hospital by the Leicestershire and Northamptonshire Police helicopter. The doctor travelled on board the helicopter continuing to provide emergency medical care whilst en route to hospital.

The sooner the better then, that Air Ambulances are operating during the night, to cover the gaps left by the public service cutbacks. Will the ad hoc landing limits on lighting and cameras be lifted then?

Isn't it great that charity run organisations are expanding into areas that public service operations are cutting back from. Now then, if all the criminals were to crash after doing a job and were airlifted to hospital, they could be nabbed while at A&E. Sorted!


Just one thing of note in the article, I thought that Warwickshire were paying into the consortium along with Leicestershire and Northamptonshire! Or is this a subtle cutback ? Just goes to show the confusion with everything...West Mids Ambulance Service, Leicestershire and Northamptonshire Police Helicopter and the job was in Warwickshire. A couple miles south and it would have been in Oxfordshire; A couple of hours later and who would be available? :eek:


Anyway...Well Done Guys :D

[timex]

Air Ambulance Units around the Country are looking at going 24 Hrs.
They aren't funded by the Home Office, or NPIA, or NPAS etc,
so they aren't being hit by the Government's spending review,
and providing the Public can still afford their donations,
there may be even more of them looking to extend their hours,
especially now that there will be fewer Police aircraft to help them out
with "Casevac's", so you might be able to get your fuel from them.

That'll be good news for the Air Ambo guys? Does this mean they'll have the Night restrictions lifted and/or a Searchlight and NVG fitted?

If they do extend the Operating hours then that should mean a few more Pilots required.

[Coconutty]

... I wonder where all this will lead ....

Perhaps the National Police Air Service may already planning to start charging
the Air Ambulance Service(s) whenever the Police conduct a Casevac on their behalf.

Perhaps this will encourage the Air Ambo's to go 24 Hrs, and invest / qualify in NVG's etc.

They might even be able to make use of some of the spare Police role equipment,
left over from all the Police aircraft being binned, such as a FLIR camera,
and / or a Nitesun - to help with Night Operations.

They could search accident scenes for victims that have staggered off into the darkness etc..... :hmm:

Hey - If they could do all that, maybe they could look at crewing up with a Police Officer on board,
and carry out a dual Police and Air Ambulance role - just like the ( existing ? ) model at Devizes. :D

Perhaps NPAS could employ D.C.I. Jack Frost as a consultant ? :ugh:
David Jason drops in at air ambulance (From This Is Wiltshire) (http://www.thisiswiltshire.co.uk/news/headlines/8412274.Sir_David_drops_in_at_air_ambulance/?ref=rss)

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[Bertie Thruster]

Lincolnshire's new hi-tech ambucopter takes to skies (http://www.thisislincolnshire.co.uk/news/New-air-ambulance-fitted-high-tech-equipment-rescue-night-casualties/article-2796795-detail/article.html)

New 999 chopper fitted to rescue casualties in dark: Hi-tech ambucopter takes to skies


http://i.thisis.co.uk/275584/article/images/2796795/1835315-vlarge.JPG

A hi-tech ambucopter will take to the county's skies on the first of its lifesaving missions next month.
Lincolnshire's new air ambulance is kitted out with the latest aviation technology, including a high-powered Night Sun searchlight.
Also equipped with night-vision goggles for its pilots, the MD 902 Explorer can now – for the first time – be flown in the dark.
An air ambulance, operated by the Lincolnshire and Nottinghamshire Air Ambulance Charitable Trust, has been flying over the county for the past 16 years.

Chief executive Peter Aldrick said: "The new helicopter will take us into the future as it is night-vision and dual-pilot equipped, which, if clearance is given by the Civil Aviation Authority (http://www.thisislincolnshire.co.uk/topics/company/civilaviationauthority), will allow night flying."

[Coconutty]

... and if you missed this story :

Dunsfold-based air ambulance to fly at nightBBC News - Dunsfold-based air ambulance to fly at night (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-surrey-11579716)

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/G-KSSH-1.jpg

I remember when she had a FLIR camera too - wonder if PAS have still got the bits :ok:

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[huntnhound]

at Night? in the dark? in weather? landing in rural areas? landing in urban areas?Doubling their staff? doubling their costs? :rolleyes:
Its not a good business case
Hnh

[volrider]

Its all crap the world has gone mad I prefered it when we had A40's to potter about in and villans were suitably cuffed around the ear, judges sent them to prison and the public never questioned our work, now we are on twatter, arsebook and other crappy publications shouting how good we are, all to satisfy some gaffer who wants another tick on his CV. I look forward to turning my back on the madhouse as common sense left the room a long time ago.... I have looked at the "master plan" devised by NPAS, NPIA BTP or whoever is running the looney tune circus and it makes little sense to me and I fear every sensible person. I have had enough of the rubbish spouted by those at top that should know better. When it all falls apart they will still be patting each other on the back. Sycophants:mad:
What happened to serving the public??? Oh dear my scales are getting cold again ....:sad:

[ORAC]

Independent: £15m savings plan for police air service (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/15m-savings-plan-for-police-air-service-2116807.html)

Police chiefs today announced proposals for a National Police Air Service that they say will save £15 million a year.

Under the austerity plans, the number of police helicopters and air bases will be slashed by a third across England and Wales. However, it is claimed the measures will provide a more effective and "joined-up" air service, while simultaneously driving down costs. There are currently 30 police air bases in England and Wales that serve 33 aircraft, costing forces £66 million a year. Under the plans this will be cut to 20 bases serving 23 aircraft - shaving £15 million off the air support budget.

Rather than each force having its own helicopter patrolling its region, the new national service will be responsible for the whole of England and Wales and be operated from one central command centre. There will also be a clear "user requirement" laid out, meaning cost-intensive flights will be approved only if they are necessary.

The ground-breaking proposals were put forward today by the Association of Chief Police Officers (Acpo), which has been working with the National Policing Improvement Agency. Acpo president Sir Hugh Orde said: "This project is all about enhancing the service we already have for less money."

The project is already said to have the support of the majority of chief constables across England and Wales and is hoped to be officially rolled out in April 2012. However, it will be the separate police authorities, who currently own the air bases and aircraft, who decide whether the "borderless" air service goes ahead.

As well as the proposed 23 aircraft - of which the Metropolitan Police will have three - there will be three spare helicopters on standby. The oldest helicopters of the current fleet will be sold off along with some bases, which have large overhead costs. Acpo believes some jobs will be lost as a result of the overhaul, but said a number of officers would be redeployed.

Hampshire Police Chief Constable Alex Marshall has spearheaded the proposals and will be the head of NPAS. He said that police helicopters across England and Wales currently offer 19 hours of coverage, but the new set-up would allow 24 hours. The current response rate - which sees 97% of the population receive air support in 20 minutes - would not be affected.

"There will also be a more specific user requirement focusing on searching for high-risk people who have gone missing, catching criminals who have committed a crime and for surveillance," added Mr Marshall. "This is not merely a cost saving exercise. While the current service is capable of doing its day job, artificial boundaries have meant that helicopters are restricted to operating within their own force area. A national, borderless service will ensure effective coverage of urban and rural areas." He added that if the proposals were given the green light and were successful, other aspects of the police service could be nationalised.

Sir Hugh, who represents the 42 police forces in the United Kingdom, said: "What we will get is a slightly enhanced service for less money without taking away from front line policing."

[volrider]

I was believeing (jesting) this until I read
This is not merely a cost saving exercise
Then reality kicked in ..sadly the BBC and daily rags will take it all in and believe the story:ugh:

[Coconutty]

What a load of crap :yuk:

NO - What we will get in a lot of areas, is a reduced service,
that MAY save some money in the long term,
depending on how the figures are manipulated :=

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[huntnhound]

Well what comes around comes around as they say...

When the Midlands consortium of four forces was formed in 1987 all was well until an intelligent Chief constable called Geoffrey Dear came along and said words to the effect of " whats the point in me paying for a helicopter in Birmingham to serve my officers when it gets deployed to Stoke on trent?"
Because he reasoned that the burglar waiting to be found in a back garden in Handsworth could calmly escape...wander off home...have 2hrs kip and do his pools coupon...all before the aircraft returned from countyville. So he rightly kicked the the forces into touch and bought his own aircraft for his own officers, to provide a PROPER RESPONSE AND SERVICE.

Its all very well the Acpo lead spouting figures about 20 mins response times but in urban forces that could be half a dozen jobs in one flight. Waiting for a national control room to toss a coin a make a decision on deploying an aircraft and waying up the cost of the deployment?

And sir Hugh says its about enhancing the service? cobblers. :mad:

This is about the death of the service. All the expertise built up in the last thirty years thrown on the scrapheap.
Frankly it beggars belief.

Hnh

[J.A.F.O.]

Ambucopter? :yuk:

[Retro Coupe]

However, it will be the separate police authorities, who currently own the air bases and aircraft, who decide whether the "borderless" air service goes ahead.No it won't. Having attended the symposium last week we were left in no doubt that this would go ahead whether we liked it or not. If we weren't prepared to do it voluntarily, it would be mandated by government.:mad:

Acpo believes some jobs will be lost as a result of the overhaul, but said a number of officers would be redeployed.And what about the pilots??

[SilsoeSid]

There will also be a clear "user requirement" laid out, meaning cost-intensive flights will be approved only if they are necessary.

For those in the job...2 words about the problems with getting authorisation....Phone Triangulation :ugh:

[SilsoeSid]

"What we will get is a slightly enhanced service for less money without taking away from front line policing."
.
.
.
with aircraft serving West Midlands Police relocating to Wolverhampton Airport to form a two-unit base with West Mercia and Staffordshire.

Open borders is all well and good. However, not only east of the M5 including Birmingham City, but the whole of Coventry will not get an aircraft within 15 mins. FFS, 15 minutes getaway time on a motorbike....:ugh:

There is a big black whole in the centre of one of the countries most populated areas where it will not be possible to respond to an incident within 15 minutes plus authorisation time. Which coffee cup circle did that come under?


Chief Constable of South Yorkshire Meredydd Hughes;
I think it should also apply to the W.Mids force area
.
"The report hides the deficiencies of the proposed service within generalised response times to the force as a whole, but it is the areas of highest crime; densest population; and major sports stadia which receive the poorest service."
:D

[What Limits]

Hey Bertie, nice chopper. Do you get it out often?

When do I get a go?

[SilsoeSid]

I think this is going to be like that rainy day when you decide to make your computer a bit tidier, faster and a bit more organised. Come late afternoon, when dinner is on the table and nothing works as it did before, you wish you hadn't started.

[PANews]

A minor detail I know, but it seems that no one asked the air ambulance operators what they thought!

There are two, potentially three, air ambulance funded operations which have been summarily cut without reference to the other parties. Cambridgeshire, Sussex and Wiltshire.

I have just asked two of the three and they have seen and heard nothing and yet their aircraft have been summarily deleted.

Just who do ACPO think they are?:ugh:

[ShyTorque]

Stating the obvious here but the problem with this flawed plan of asset reduction is that it will result in air support becoming less effective (poor response / higher transit times and fewer aircraft to go around, so some important jobs will be disallowed). This is likely to become a vicious circle. Some will soon say:

"Police air support isn't effective so not worth the money, let's do away with it", etc.

As I said before, someone made their career over the introduction of air support, by showing it would save money. Now someone else is making a career out of the run-down of air support, allegedly to save money.

The same thing has happened to our local hospital. They are "pooling resources" with another one outside of our county, supposedly to improve services. What they have done is to remove a service by stealth. Some people are not going to be able to get the benefit because there is less of it.

Anyone who thinks we are getting an improved service is deluded.

[volrider]

How long will two helicopters be at CCAOU Wolverhampton before they decide to reduce it just to one??:ooh:

[SilsoeSid]

How long will two helicopters be at CCAOU Wolverhampton before they decide to reduce it just to one??:ooh:

Or effectively half an aircraft, when the locals start to complain about the increased activity. Anyone thought about what would happen if any planning permission applications were to be refused?

[Sulley]

What's the point ? It's bad enough having the stupid 15 min circles to start with, but then if you put 2 at the same base they've got the same circle!!!!!!!:ugh:

[Retro Coupe]

but then if you put 2 at the same base they've got the same circleAlso, if the weather closes in below limits you've got two assets grounded.

An experiment involving Suffolk, Norfolk, Cambs and Essex, controlled by Kent introduced the procedure of making an aircraft land at a base other than its own, post tasking, if it involved a shorter transit time. If the 20 base model has allegedly been worked out to give best coverage, and we have more than one aircraft at a base, should the same procedure be introduced nationally (well England and Wales anyway) there will be further gaps in coverage.

[volrider]

Strikes me that NPAS or whatever have come up with a plan given the HO the costs then probably realised they underquoted, have symposium tell those that are there to make it work or close down... modern management = bullying I think!
I guess those that are in charge no little or bugger all about ASU's never worked on one, never run one and have little knowledge other than playing with "theory models" but I bet they think they are great, who are they anyway??? Any names??

[Gas Generator]

Dear All

This is not about crime, it is about being able to tick a box and at the enquiry - the officer stated a helicopter was deployed me lud. Nothing about was it in time or appropriate. O yes, we went sir, it took us 2 hours to get the paperwork, refuel, plan, deploy 200 miles, refuel, get on scene...all over by then Sir.....

They will save money but the service will NOT be enhanced it will be depleted and demoralised considerably. Every remaining aircraft will now need to carry more maps (remember skyforce does not always work when you want it), each crewmember will want to carry an overnight kit in case - you may not come back - especially when the weather closes in behind you.

This will all result in extra weight - less fuel - reduced radius of action and less time on task - that's when you eventually get there, where ever that is, with the high possibility that you will have to refuel before you get to the scene! How much time does billy burglar need.

The remaining 20 aircraft will burn holes in the sky getting to late jobs and the airframe hours will rocket, with little to show for it.

You will be faced with different radio talkgroups, different operating procedures, different legal requirements, different requirements, different callsigns, different computer systems, the list is endless. Unfamiliar areas with no local knowledge. No two constabularies do the same on anything.

As several colleagues have said, this is the start of the end of Air Support. It will eventually die because the bean-counter (yes, singular) will not in the end be able to produce a graph of criminals caught by air support against expenditure. The constabularies and the Gov will want to know why and then disband it completely.

Then when crime (deterrent taken away), ram-raids, dead mispers occur in numbers again, someone in charge of a constabulary will buy their own helicopter, staff it and air support will be born again.

We don't seem to learn the lessons of history anymore, it is all about how far you can boost your career by cutting and adjusting the retoric to fool the press and public. I just hope that when crime rises again because of this ill-thoughout scheme then those that championed NPAS in it's present state are brought to account.

What about the public and oaths - things like that.

Perhaps replacing each police authority with a 'people's champion' may be a good thing. Get rid of the politics.

PANews - what do your journalistic colleagues think about all this?

That's good - off chest now....good luck those left.
:ugh:

[B.U.D.G.I.E]

As I said before, someone made their career over the introduction of air support, by showing it would save money. Now someone else is making a career out of the run-down of air support, allegedly to save money.


Take out the words air support and replace them with TRAFFIC, DOGS, MOUNTED BRANCH and your on to some thing there. Who knew??:ugh::ugh:

How long will two helicopters be at CCAOU Wolverhampton before they decide to reduce it just to one??


You'll only need to send one lots of fire engines then cause they will be reduced as well....

[SilsoeSid]

Hang on a mo!
This was only supposed to be a Home Office Review and it's managed to get this far...how?

Anyway, all this catastrophe for a £15 Mill saving over the whole of England and Wales Air Operations.
Lets put this into context, for example lets have a look at what is spent elsewhere and nothing to do with front line policing!

http://www.psni.police.uk/refreshment_stationery_expenditure.pdf

2008/09
Hospitality £163,965
Stationary £1,007,083
Paper £114,962
Total £1,286,010


And just how much is it to;

Relocate to a new base at Dunsfold.
+
Relocating to a new base at RAF Honington.
+
Relocate to Southend
+
Relocate to Bournemouth Airport
+
Relocate to Wolverhampton Airport
+
Relocate to a new base at RAF Colerne.
:confused:

[SilsoeSid]

You'll only need to send one lots of fire engines then cause they will be reduced as well....

Which would immediately be replaced by the spares and then rehoused where they should be!

[B.U.D.G.I.E]

_pNKzzC5BCo

They should have out sourced to a consolation company.....

[yme]

I hear the Met have decided not to play!! Obviously too precious to participate. They have three 145s God knows why, but are unwilling to share with the rest of the country!:confused:

[Fly_For_Fun]

.....and what of the cost to put this all back in place in a few years with a new government and hierarchy in place..... MAKES MY BLOOD BOIL! :ugh:

[B.U.D.G.I.E]

BBC News - New service to provide police helicopters (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11627331)

New service to provide police helicopters

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/49658000/jpg/_49658116_policechopper.jpg
Police forces in England and Wales will share helicopters to save money
The police helicopters of England and Wales are to be merged into a single National Police Air Service.
A "shadow service" will begin next year and the full national service will roll out in 2012.
Currently there are 33 aircraft at 30 different bases. These all belong to individual forces.
The National Police Air Service will have 23 aircraft at 20 bases. This will save £15m from the current total of £66m.
The president of the Association of Chief Police Officers (Acpo) Sir Hugh Orde said: "This project is all about enhancing the service we already have for less money."
The service, which will also have three spare choppers, will provide 24-hour cover with a 20-minute response time for 97% of the population of England and Wales.
In many forces there is only cover for about 18 hours at present.
British Transport Police will be in charge of the service's command and control structure and there will also be a clear "user requirement" laid out, meaning flights - which cost around £2,000 per hour - will be approved only if they are necessary.
It is not clear if police forces in Scotland and Northern Ireland plan to follow suit.
Alex Marshall, the Chief Constable of Hampshire Police, who is co-ordinating the project, was asked about the use of drones.
He said: "The starting positions is we use what we have got and then we will look at innovations. At the moment the law does not allow us to use drones out of the line of sight."
Police helicopters are regularly used by forces chasing suspects on foot and in vehicles and can also be a vital tool in the search for missing people.
The decision to launch the new service and amalgamate police helicopters is a response to a review ordered by the government last year.
But there have been fears expressed that the new service will be poorer.
In August the chairman of the Hampshire branch of the Police Federation, John Apter, warned about plans to merge the force's helicopters with those of Sussex and Surrey.
He said: "I'm confident the service won't be badly affected, but we have to accept that in reducing from three to two aircraft, there has got to be a level of service that is diminished. The service I hope we will obtain will be adequate but it's clearly not the Rolls-Royce service we've been used to."


Where on earth did £2000 an hour come from. Smells a little fishy. Not like the government to make figures up to rush something through they want :mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

[Retro Coupe]

I hear the Met have decided not to play!!If that's true, good for them. Perhaps the rest of us should follow their example. The national strategy as it stands at the moment is a joke. Why, because we were told very little with regard how it's going to work or how much it's going to cost. The number of questions that received answers such as "we're still looking at that" or " I don't have those figures to hand" was embarassing.

The current response rate - which sees 97% of the population receive air support in 20 minutes - would not be affected.Big deal. Most jobs are well past their sell-by date by the time you've transitted 20 mins to get to them. That has to be added to the time it took for the request to be made and the decision to deploy.

Anyone who's been on scene when a vehicle is abandoned and the occupants have done a runner, will know how far they can get in just 5 mins. And when you're told an area is contained how often is that actually true?

Reducing the number of aircraft will reduce the number of short transit flights and therefore the number of successful outcomes.

[Coconutty]

Not like the government to make figures up to rush something through they want ... and of course the figures wouldn't be manipulated to make the operating costs
of any particular Base seem far too expensive, thus justifying
their move elsewhere to "save" on the costs of 2 bases :rolleyes:

For arguments sake they wouldn't dream of saying it costs nearly £X million a year
to operate from "Base X", ( which must make them the most expensive ASU in the Country ),
and that by moving and co-locating to "Y" there would be major cost savings to be had,
even though IN REALITY, that particular ASU's annual budget
might be LESS THAN 50% of the figures quoted - Would they :uhoh: :confused:

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[SilsoeSid]

It's a shame really. A couple of those 145's would be really handy for the more rural forces with the larger areas they will now have to cover. It is only now, when it's too late, that we realise the latest batch of aircraft should have included a larger type with the capability to provide a better service.

But as the Met will be keeping their 3x145s to provide cover to an area smaller than some other units will have to cover with just one 135/902, it just goes to show what a mess this all is.

The good thing about a 'National Air Wing', would be the capability to deploy the Wings resources, such as the larger types, to areas where they are needed most. Incidents such as the Cumbrian floods and those requiring the movement of firearms over areas of moorland, such as in Northumbria and West Cumbria recently, would benefit from access to such resources.

But as the rest of us suffer, the Met gets to keep the luxuries other forces couldn't afford in the first place. Looking at this perhaps in a different more controversial way, the Met equate to perhaps 4 normal ASUs in costs and resources.

I think most of us would agree that a 'National Air Wing' set-up (or whatever you want to call it) is a good thing, but if one unit gets the option to opt out, the whole shebang goes for a Richard.

[yme]

if one unit gets the option to opt out, the whole shebang goes for a Richard.

Can't help but agree!
I think the comment was made by the Met that " We can't think about NPAS until after 2012". Really! so if the correct aircraft were in the correct places under a single banner before that, that wouldn't make sense then?

Four aircraft for a huge area (less London) and three large aircraft inside the M25.
Somebody want to keep their empire!!

[zorab64]

SS - you might like to bear in mind that, if the Mets did go their own way, they'd have to pay for it themselves, rather than out of the National budget. That would save some significant £m's (2-3, by my reckoning) more than the current planned £15m! Everyone else can then get on with it at a better cost to the taxpayer.
On the other hand, if they do play ball, the National model is likely to have to put some sort of service agreement together which ensures the Met a/c don't stay huddled inside the M25, and obliges them (with significant financial penalties if they don't) to spread their wings further afield when required.;)

Any unit/force that opts out, will find themselves seriously strapped, I'd suggest - as others have already said, it's the big boys in the playground who are running all this, and whether or not they ever learnt how to play the games properly in the first place, they've got the ball at the moment & will hold on to it until some :mad: pops it! It's may have been said it's "not about cost", but you'd say that too if your gooseberries were in a vice!!

And as for the earlier post relating to Air Ambulances by night - yes, once they've strapped FLIR/NVG/Nitesun on, they'll be able to carry lots of casualties, won't they?! Or else they'll be in the same position as S Wales used to be (maybe still are) in having to remove & replace heavy kit between day/night operations. What a welcome "improvement" to service & extra expense all that will be to the charity concerned!!:eek:

[SilsoeSid]

SS - you might like to bear in mind that, if the Mets did go their own way, they'd have to pay for it themselves, rather than out of the National budget.

And maybe, just maybe, we will find that if they do go that way, their budget mysteriously gets a little bigger :suspect:

[yme]

zorab64
Touch a bit of a nerve there! Got a bit of an interest in NPAS?
Surely if the Met stay out they get their money from council tax in the area they cover and that money should by rights be going to the national pot?

Or is this a good idea going badly because there are one maybe two people running with it who don't know a goddamn thing about Air Support or serving the community.

[Helinut]

If you guys had several special cloaks to help protect you and keep things the way they are, developed for your force, wouldn't you use them? It may just be that the Met's senior management value what they have and are prepared to defend it..... Unlike some ACPO ranks around the bazaars.

[yme]

Helinut
The point is not that CC's should fight for what they have but that there should not be a a two level system. Either the Met comes on board or it doesn't work. If they don't want to play they should be made to. The capital would then have the same cover as the rest of the country. An obvious conclusion to the Met being left out, would be that the NPAS model is inferior and not as we are told a better more efficient model than we have now.
It should be that as a national asset the aircraft would be deployed to cover the Olympics in a more effective not less effective manner.

[zorab64]

yme - I can assure you I've no vested interest in NPAS and, whilst I understand some need for reductions in many areas of Government funding, I'm firmly of the opinion that the proposals in this area are going a step or two too far.

Any council tax collected by the Met will have to be accounted for in the area and paid for by the, already strapped, London tax-payer. Are they going to be happy to pay over the odds for an enhanced service inside the M25? We'll have to wait & see.

Your last paragraph strikes more of a chord than the first!!:ok:

[Rigga]

Been keeping an eye into here for a while now and its quite obvious that I know a lot more about ASU Ops than a lot of people on here.

Throws Grenade....and retires quickly behind wall.

[What Limits]

We are not talking about ASU Ops, we are talking about ASU Politics.

Thats one of the reasons that I left.

[PANews]

You can easily reach a figure of £2,000 an hour - possibly more- if you actually include all the overheads and if it suits your argument to produce such a figure.

Police aviation across the world has depressed cost figures to suit their own purposes and it must be said that some of the [soon to be] deleted units were less economic than others per hour flown. So it ranges from the $20 an hour to fly a Bell OH58 out of Montgomery AL to this £2,000 an our just quoted to produice what is a police person in the sky.

But there are other sums that can be applied to the argument.

There is a claim that £15M will be saved. Well I m no accountant but...

There is no mention of the throwing away of £1M it cost to set up the brand new 9-5 Mon-Fri SPIFR Dyfed Powys facility or this years £250,000 spent on upgrading security at a number of facilities including West Midlands [to be abandoned]

Ditto costs associated with setting up the moves of Surrey and Chiltern to RAF Stations etc etc.

The costs of setting up new facilities at each of these new places - even though the move of the Suffolk airframe is from one side of Bury St Edmonds to the other side.... a handful of miles a minute in air travel time.

And for those having a good snipe at the Met operation there are difficult costs to swallow if the bean counters actually counted beans there.

Lippitts Hill is a large facility blessed with many acres that used to support radios, cadets, firearms, dogs and helicopters. The sole occupants of this glorious facility are now the MPASU and the radios.

Not their fault but the result is the same.

The announcement of the new plan to the great and the good of Fleet Street on Tuesday did not include any police titles or for that matter anyone with first hand knowledgeof piloting and engineering.

But suffice for you to know, that at the bottom off he press release it stated that ACPO has 340 members..... it has been pointed out to me that if each earns [at least] £100,000 there is an option to save up to £34M - at a stroke!

Year on year.

[Rigga]

What Limits - Thanks for that response.

I still can't believe people can talk about the politics of ASUs with apparently so little knowledge of what ASUs do?

[volrider]

Rigga I fear you are just popping in to cause trouble, I doubt you know as much about ASU's as you would like to think otherwise you would be be supporting a lot of views here. Then again you might be a naughty man from NPAS:eek:

[Coconutty]

it will be the separate police authorities, who currently own the air bases and aircraft,
who decide whether the "borderless" air service goes ahead.


There lies the answer - It might not be too late !

Perhaps the various Police Authorities should be gently steered in the direction of
our Dutch colleagues to examine how their Police Air Support is provided.

I am reliably informed that they currently operate a National Service,
but ARE LOOKING AT SCRAPPING IT - because IT DOES NOT WORK -
for all the reasons given here, and are hoping to adopt the local approach
used in the UK as a far superior method of providing the service :ugh:

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[wingwalker69]

So, less choppers means we can look forward to more high speed chases through our towns and villages?:\

[20Minuter]

The days of lots of many high speed pursuits have long gone. There are occasional "follows", but not like there used to be. Yes, this may be due to ASU availability, but more likely due to the increase in vehicle security over the years. This however, has brought in the trend of "car key burglary" as Billy now needs your wheels for his/her robberies.

[Art of flight]

You've told us this is the way it's going to be.

I'm an employee, I accept what you've told me.

Those of us crew that remain will do our very best to meet the changes and challenges that you set us.

Now perhaps you'll listen to some of the ideas that may make a difference?

1. If we are 'redeploying' officers from ASUs, consider redeploying some as the SPOCs to run the tasking side of the new system, there is no-one else with the experience to decide quickly what is or isn't suitable tasking.

2. Mandate the aircraft to carry maximum fuel (heaviest crew allowed for) on average this will give us another 25 minutes endurance at no extra cost. It may enable us to carry on to the second or third task rather than rack up the bill for returning to base after most jobs for fuel before setting off for another job in the next county.

3. Mandate each county force HQ to provide a helipad sized area at their HQ so that we can land there if fuel allows, to wait for the next task at a secure (ish) location.

Those are the no-cost options. Now a few that will cost but will pay dividends in the future.........

1. At least one unit in each region to be 24 hour (hopefully the most central one) this would cost 1 extra pilot and 2 air observers beyond the present 19 hour system, we would appear to have a few looking for employment in the near future.

2. Negotiate with the CAA to allow all pilots to hold an 'IMC' type rating to allow return to base via IMC. Without this we're going to play it safe and refuse distant tasking in poor weather or get the aircraft stuck in some very inconvenient and insecure places. Not suggesting a full IR as we don't need to plan IFR trips, just recover on instruments to the operating base.

[JimL]

Art of Flight,

If you really think this:Not suggesting a full IR as we don't need to plan IFR trips, just recover on instruments to the operating base.you really do not understand the issue.

An IFR recovery requires the full bag of tools - including (but not limited to): planning; instrument skills that are maintained; procedures to prevent obstacle collision; and instrument let down at the site of recovery.

Point-in-Space procedures can provide the last of these but they still have to be compliant with the regulations, and appropriately tailored for each location.

The punch up into cloud and then 'wing it' philosophy can only lead to the obvious consequence.

Jim

[Sulley]

ART - I know where you're coming from,but, the Pilot decides fuel load ALWAYS and IMC won't help.Not all bases are at airports so how do you get down again ? Some pilots are I/R and at airports but the Airports aren't open at night,and you then get into the potential of pushing limits which always ends badly for someone.

[Sulley]

Thomas - probably because they have a central control centre and NPAS have no infrastructure what so ever. :( ...... but that is a shot in the dark (or 15min ring around an air base or some other such nonsense)!:ugh:

[Gas Generator]

Art of Flight, if your new employer said put your finger in the socket, would you? No, the potential in an aviation environment for an accident is high and the reason that the UK police aviation community has an excellent safety record is the professionalism, honesty and candidness of its pilots.

You cannot mandate for maximum fuel because your next job may be taking a negotiator/dog handler + fluffy missile to the scene or a casevac - you will be too heavy!. It is the pilots decision, it can only be because they are the ones that carry the can if things go wrong.

Likewise, part of the new process will be a crew brief if the task out of local area, it has to be, only then will you put on more fuel but this all takes time, and because you are going out of area more kit will be put on (overnight, bad weather?) so less fuel can be carried, requiring a very limited time on scene out-of-area or a refuel before arriving on scene. These are complex planning issues that the pilot has the decision on.

One of the big factors in the enviable safety record is pilot local knowledge when operating in bad weather, local trends and escape routes. You do not have that when you go out of area so it is inevitable and prudent to operate to a better weather limit. It's all common sense. And, remember the CAA has mandated that if the pilot is unhappy at anytime they can call it a day, they do not have to operate down to the written limits, there are many other factors. Do not compromise safety.

IFR is not a magic trick. Much of the time we do not have the correct quantity of fuel for proper IFR diversion. It really is an emergency situation with pilots and crews that never do it for real and the pilot only has practice every 3 months. Local knowledge in this situation is paramount - especially at night.
You have just given a quality example of the type of thinking that is driving the NPAS - no experience and an inability to listen.

I cannot over state the importance of local knowledge to efficient and safe local air operations. Out of area will require more planning time and higher weather criteria, more fuel and consequently a knock on in time to respond.

Equally, landing at a HQ is fine BUT you need FUEL.......You land where the fuel is......
:ugh:

[Helinut]

Thomas is absolutely right about the BTP control thing. Bizarre. It also means our railway system will be covered by air support for free to the railways, to a level of detail never even dreamed of previously.

In itself that will build in significant extra delay. Having worked around the bazaars, it was very noticeable how different the deployment times were between different ASUs in the existing system. When an ASU responds to more than one force, the control/computer information side of things gets much more difficult/slower. That is an unavoidable consequence of the added complexity. Multiply that by all the forces in the country and the problem is huge. The BTP control room has none of the individual proper police force systems within its control room (I am fairly sure). So any request will have to be combined with a full transfer of the information about a job. Whether phone or typed into a separate system it all adds significant time.

Then you need to add the situation the BTP CR staff will find themselves in. They know nothing about:

Air Support
The area where the incident has occurred
The force where the incident has occurred
Any special initiatives relating to operations or whatever

The most effective jobs are often those where very rapid deployment occurs, as we all know. [Better still are the ones where you are airborne already in the vicinity]. In some of the ASUs the very best jobs come from situations where the observers self-deploy because they KNOW they will be able to have a major impact. That will pretty much disappear completely. So will local knowledge of the crew of most of the forces that an ASU covers. It also will have a direct impact on the conduct of flights - perhaps even flight safety, especially at night. In the present system crews have a detailed knowledge of the area they fly over and the forces they support - this will be diluted in the "new" system. ASUs also have access to the force control/computer systems that they work for. Not under the new regime. They will be working in the dark in more ways than one. They will simply have to follow the requests of someone who knows little or nothing about the job or air support, and are unable to look at the job information themselves.


Much much more pointless, wasted flying, more box-ticking exercises after the event to cover senior management backsides, fewer scrotes caught and more mispers not found.

But then fewer criminals arrested may help the D of J budgets .............

[yme]

Thomas, Sulley.
I think it’s correct about BTP as having a national setup and being all joined up unlike the rest of the law enforcement in the UK.

I hear where Artist is coming from, most Police pilots have held IR ratings and have a fair bit of experience, that’s normally why they’re hired. (I know that Artist comes complete with both those attributes) and he is simply stating that wx is not the same in one area as it is in another and to be able to get to some jobs, and return from others one may need to pass through poor wx. Perhaps completing an NPAS in house similar to a military instrument rating, could be considered.

[jayteeto]

Instead of military 'type' of instrument rating (full airways for some) and military 'type' of exemptions for ASUs, why not just get the military to do the job?
It's a Civil Operation, with civil licences and civil rules and regs. If you want IFR pilots, then give them an IR and keep them current.

[yme]

why not just get the military to do the job?



Mostly they do!
But thats for another thread.

[B.U.D.G.I.E]

Great thats mean a bunch of train spotters are gonna be in charge of a bunch of plane spotters......there is no hope :sad:

[Sulley]

Forget the whole IFR thing, cans open, worms everywhere! It wouldn't work. All the time you can't see the ground- the observers can't do their job. The areas under NPAS are larger, local knowledge wont be able to be used and yes areas will have different weather, however.The national control will probably retask you before you get to home base, if you happen to be IFR , you can't do an awful lot! :hmm: If you have an instrument rating then it should be kept current - no questions asked.

[B.U.D.G.I.E]

I hear the met have decided not to playWell they need to change the first line of the press release then

Police forces in England and Wales will share helicopters to save moneyPolice forces in England and Wales (except the met because their special) will share helicopters to save money

[Art of flight]

Chaps, thanks for the various responses.

JimL, hope you are well, i'm not suggesting a full IR, as you well know at present we have a made up 3 monthly cycle of IFP which doesn't actually 'allow' us to do anything. If we're to broaden our horizons I'd be concerned that we will still have no safe method of returning to base in less than the prescribed limits. We'll end up with aircraft all over the place, I'm asking those that can influence these things to think ahead. Perhaps the new system will have the funds for full IR for all;).

Sulley, the 3 units of the consortium I work at cover 5 counties, each unit has a prescribed standard fuel which allows for enough spare payload for a person to be carried from base though generally we fly to pick up said person rather than them drive an hour to us. We just can't have it both ways, either we can do tasks 90 miles from base or we can leave room for that occasional person.

Also you make the point that if we're IMC we can't retask in the air, well if I'm stuck in a field near Dover out of limits I can't get to Peterborough anyway.

TC, I bow to your experience, I'm just trying to get people to think about the near future and what new training and infrastructure we need as an absolute minimum. Your point about bases without instrument approaches is heard loud and clear, the current plan has at least 2 bases moving away from ILS equipped airfields to bases without! Having said that I can't currently use the ILS as the employers can't afford IRs for us.

GG, with 16 years of Army flying and 11 at Air Support, I feel I have a little to offer. I operate regularly over 5 largish counties with one aircraft, It's not pretty, and sometimes it doesn't go to plan and sometimes we get stuck where we didn't want to be. I work hard at it so If anyone can say they've been to the future I can. You have to work with what you've got and I'm making the point that we can try to influence the operational level detail in this new plan that seems to be a done deal.

Yme, thanks for your support, some can't see the sarcasm in the first few lines of my previous post.

Now do any of the professionals on here have any ideas of how to make this new set-up work at our level (ie those who do this job, night in and night out)?

Bye the way, where did the BTP thing come from?

Regards

[B.U.D.G.I.E]

Bye the way, where did the BTP thing come from?


They are the only force with a national structure already in place hence a national air support structure can follow the model they already use. But as they don't have air support and no one there is going to have scooby doo. It's gonna be interesting :ugh:

[Art of flight]

'Interesting' won't cover the half of it:hmm:

[Epiphany]

So Art - assuming that the rules could be changed for ASU's - how do you propose that a non-SPIFR aircraft with a non-IR pilot returns to a non-aid equipped base in below VFR weather (safely).

If you are thinking GPSNPA's then you'll find that the minima for these approaches are well above your current VFR limits - and that you would still require SPIFR aircraft, IR's, fuel reserves etc.

[Art of flight]

The aircraft are all SPIFR, I'm asking experts like you to start thinking about the changes in regulation and training we need to enable wider based operations. Just because things have in the past been done in a certain way doesn't mean they fit the bill for the future. I say again, I want an IR but they can't afford them!

Come on guys, start adding to the thread in positive way, rather than constantly knocking some-one who wants to make a difference in a bad situation.

Like most in this tiny little part of aviation, I care, but the budgets been set, change is being forced on us so lets get our collective experience together and force through the things we need to do the job safely and effectively.

You'll notice I don't post often, mainly because of the armchair knockers, take aim and fire if you will, meanwhile I'll be banging on the bosses door to ensure progress is made safely rather than expecting me to carry on playing met roulette in unfamiliar areas on sparse fuel.

[Art of flight]

Now I'm on a run.....

I train for 1 hour every 90/120 days in simulated IMC (actual if the IRI/IRE so wishes) to recover from UPs, self vector to an ILS, and carry out 1 coupled approach with go around and 1 un-coupled approach as do all police pilots, just in case I get caught out. The further we fly, the longer the task, the more likely we are to 'get caught out'. Why constantly train me for the 'caught out' scenario and then not rubber stamp the ability legally. In my opinion we're pretty much in a no mans land and I fear it won't do for the new set-up.

As an aside I regularly fly with 2 IR pilots who have both said the currency for an IR (whilst more demanding) is less than that for an unrated police pilot?

[flying bizzie]

It would appear that that the cracks are already beginning to show.


BBC News - Concern South Yorkshire helicopter 'could be scrapped' (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-south-yorkshire-11594695)

South Yorkshire Police's chief constable has expressed concern the force's Sheffield-based helicopter may be scrapped.
Med Hughes told BBC Radio Sheffield future plans meant the aircraft may be removed from its current base.
He said they would then have to get the service from neighbouring regions.
The Association of Chief Police Officers (ACPO) said it was working with the government to establish a National Police Air Service.
Mr Hughes said: "There's a project to turn the current system, which has over 30 independently-owned police helicopters, into a national system.
"I support the proposal in the broad terms, it's much more effective to have a national police helicopter and fixed-wing network.
"But the plans in detail would take away the air base which we currently have at Sheffield, and we would then get our service from bases in West Yorkshire, Humberside and Ripley in Derbyshire.
"I think that's too far away."
'Difficult times'
He added: "I will fight to make sure we continue to get the service we need in Sheffield, which of course is our busiest area."
An ACPO spokeswoman said: "The government has expressed a commitment to establishing a National Police Air Service by April 2012.
"Air support illustrates how the police service is working hard to make savings in difficult financial times.
"A new service would work collaboratively to provide capability from the air that maximises the delivery of front line public services, but with a lower cost than services procured and managed on a local basis."


FB

[Art of flight]

Nearly cried when I read how enthusiastic the Notts police authority was about the new arrangements, they'll be having one of the National spares at the counties base so they 'can just pull it out of the hangar when theirs is unavailable'. Don't think they understood that 'their' aircraft would no longer be theirs and would often be in another county (with its crew) and that 'their' spare will spend most of its time at other (national) bases.

[SilsoeSid]

Are there many units whose present base can already accomodate 2 or more aircraft, that have to move to a base that would have to have significant investment in order to build facilities that could accomodate 2 or more aircraft, because the plan wants to base 2 or more aircraft at the 'new' location, which at the moment can only house 1?

[timex]

Nearly cried when I read how enthusiastic the Notts police authority was about the new arrangements, they'll be having one of the National spares at the counties base so they 'can just pull it out of the hangar when theirs is unavailable'. Don't think they understood that 'their' aircraft would no longer be theirs and would often be in another county (with its crew) and that 'their' spare will spend most of its time at other (national) bases.

Wonder who they'll expect to do the CX "A" on the spare A/C? Clean it when it comes back minging?

[Aerodynamik]

An example of this is their cavalier attitude to picking the wrong aircraft for the job even after they were 'advised' by all the other air consortiums otherwise and also thinking they could 'con' the CAA into allowing them to rapid rope and fire from helosNumpties. Now London has all those 145's boring circles in the sky waiting for the fuel to drop so they can come to the hover. What's that all about.

TC - you are obviously a very bitter man, I seem to recall a similar post from you a few months back. It's strange that you have such strong views on a matter in which you are obviously not current. (similar, one might say, to those being critisised on this thread!)

I also find it rather strange, having read the doom and gloom here, that the Met are being portrayed as 'too precious' and too up there own ****s because they have seen sense and pressumably have put together a strong case to stay out.

[Fly_For_Fun]

I think Henlow can accommodate 2 aircraft and have a great set up too.

[yme]

Wonder who they'll expect to do the CX "A" on the spare A/C? Clean it when it comes back minging?

That will be engineering, obviously!:E

[Bertie Thruster]

I hear the met have decided not to play

Wonder if they are waiting until their big event in 2012 is out of the way before joining the NPAS?

[J.A.F.O.]

FFF - Anything might change, who knows?

[Fly_For_Fun]

JAFO I do hope so.

That will be engineering, obviously!
YME, you should be running the whole set up with progressive views like yours.

[Coconutty]

When the "Airwave" ( Police Radio ) was introduced - love it, or more likely hate it, it opened up a new opportunity for those that chose to do so, for Direct tasking requests from the Bobby on the ground that needed it.

Simply change to the dedicated Air to Ground Channel, and speak direct to the crew, with none of the old geographical limitations of UHF radio that demanded all requests at the sharp end for Air Support, had to be routed via the local Control Room first, who then passed on the request via a VHF radio link with greater range, or by telephone.

This innovative approach allowed the crews immediate access to the information required to make a decision as to whether deploy or not, such as precise location, direction of travel of escaping offender / vehicle / misper etc, whether the area was fully or partially "contained" and where the containment was actually placed, etc. and did away with the previous lengthy game of "Chinese Whispers" via someone in a control room, somewhere.

The new Airwave radio system and direct calling approach - on a channel dedicated for that purpose, was SO successful that at least one ASU I know of, when they began trials with a neighbouring ASU consortium of 2 additional Police forces, adopted the same strategy and had all of their Officer's radios across all of the forces re-programmed with a single Air to Ground - Air Support "Hailing" channel. Depending on the incident location, and the location and committments of the two aircraft, then the task would be responded to by the most appropriate resource - with both ASU's constantly monitoring that Channel for task requests. (Air support then being provided generally by the one that was nearest, uncommitted, or had the shortest response time).

I am led to believe that under the new NPAS system, anyone requiring Air support may have to make this request via their local Control Room, who will then pass the request to the National Control Room (wherever that may be).

The National Control Room staff would then assess the task, decide if it is viable for Air support to attend, and deploy the resource that they think is most appropriate.

If this system is adopted then I believe it will be the major cause of a National Air Support scheme FAILING.

Why ? - Because of the inevitable delays in :Passing on the request from Bobby on the Ground, to their own Control Room (who have plenty of free time to deal with such requests don't they ? - Not !), to the National Control Room, who may well refer the request back for more information, which has to be referred back to the Bobby on scene, then back via their Control Room to the National Control Room, who then have to assess the request and decide which aircraft to deploy, and then contact the ASU, who may well ask for further information, which has to be passed back down the communications chain, and then wait for the information, before even turning the key on the Heli-Lift !

If I were a betting man I would put a month's wages (if I still have any) that the average response times quoted of 20 minutes, will actually become MINIMUM response times.

I really hope ( and dare to suggest ? ) that this will be taken into consideration and that the Bobby on the ground - who is after all the primary "Customer" of every Air Support Unit, is allowed to continue having direct contact with "their" ASU(s), and that the ASU would then liase with the National Control Room to confirm/inform them of their deployment.

If not, then it is not only all the Pilots and Observers that should be complaining, but every Operational Police Officer on the streets that will suffer as a result.


:\

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[morris1]

If not, then it is not only all the Pilots and Observers that should be complaining,
but every Operational Police Officer on the streets that will suffer as a result.


Saddly cocunity i doubt this is the ethos of NPAS.
Like many forces mine has adopted direct contact with the a/c via airwave. Any Officer can contact the a/c or the office for that matter, from anywhere without any authorisation/intervention from supervisory or control room.
We have some of our best jobs from Officers seeing or hearing us nearby and shouting up to say "can you just, while your here"... or otherwise calling up the office to say, were just going to a job, could you........

I fully believe that NPAS will NOT consider everyday policework to be "worthy" enough of an aircraft attending.
Furthermore I can tell you now that most cops, if you tell them that the nearest a/c is 30 mins away, will just say"ahhh forget it"

And as already stated, WHO in the ops room is going to be ringing BTP to request an a/c..? It will be the ops room inspector of course. And this will only happen once they have time..!! so yet more delay..
The result.?
As we all know, the only thing the a/c will get to, is misper searches, bulls**t firearms jobs and football matches. None of which gets any collars felt..!!!

So for all us cops that want to to work at NPAS, (subject to passing interviews and selection of course), that like getting crims locked up. Time for pipe and slippers to come out while we tick all these boxes that need doing.

[morris1]

Are there many units whose present base can already accomodate 2 or more aircraft

I believe the south yorks a/c is based at what was sheffield city airport. Which is still airport shaped, and has all the infrastructure still in place, including empty hangars, fuel, security, runway for fixed wing, central location for sheffield...??

Once the south yorks a/c has been sold off and the staff redeployed/sacked there will be even more room. Perhaps they can move an NPAS aircraft there..!!!

see.. its easy this planning lark. Maybe I can get a job at NPAS doing the drawing circles on maps thingie :}


:ugh:

[ShyTorque]

Don't think they understood that 'their' aircraft would no longer be theirs and would often be in another county (with its crew) and that 'their' spare will spend most of its time at other (national) bases.

So nothing new there then....

The aircraft spends half it's time in Derbyshire and the spare's down south.

[B.U.D.G.I.E]

He's one I bet they have not thought of.. In the old days a bobby would ask the control room for air support. If the duty officer ( with no air support experience) thought it was a goer he would ring building in at 10 15 min delay. No flight. Now as coco says bobbies on the ground can call direct on the new airwave thingy. So this is how it all changes. I would guess that most units can now say that the large number of ANPR cameras are producing quite a lot of work. Stolen cars that would have normally gone by unseen. Firearms markers, wanted people, missing people, dizzies. The list goes on.

Now these cameras are not situated in rural locations or miles from towns. So why are the NPIA looking at getting rid of busy city units and then moving the rest to the middle of no where. So add a 20 min transit time to an ANPR hit at 100mph no chance.

But I guess there next job will be to write air support out of the pursuit manual. That will solve it.:ugh:

[Mick85]

I have been watching the thread with interest.

At last week's symposium there was a mix of Police Officers and pilots with between them,hundreds of years of ASU experience many of whom have been in it since the start. My belief is that NPAS is going to happen and why on earth would all those experienced and dedicated practitioners want it to fail.

I want to make sure that the level of service we have achieved over the past twenty years is maintained to the vast majority of our users. There is nothing in the NPAS ethos that will stop frontline officers using air to ground talk groups to speak directly to aircraft and nothing to remove the autonomy of crews to self deploy.

The working groups that will be set up soon must ensure that these fundamental links and decision making processes are not taken away.
All the practitioners who will be making the reccommendations on the future working methods, command and control etc etc of NPAS have been around for a long time and represent all regions of the country.

I think we can trust them to do the best for air support with what will be at their disposal.

If and when it all goes ahead,we have to make it work.

PS: On the Dutch question, their problem is that all their 135s and 139s are based at Schiphol. The Dutch police want to spread the aircraft around the country to allow access to air support to all their officers not just Amsterdam.

[volrider]

Coconutty I think NPAS are fully aware of this and will see it as a tool for saying how the aircraft are requested less, fly less cost less and can be cut back even further... So saving more money. Sadly catchin villians is not their priority its value for money results mean FA
Sadly the modern managers accross the Police think this way :sad:

[volrider]

Mick I assume your are very nieve or are part of NPAS
I think we can trust them to do the best for air support with what will be at their disposal.

If and when it all goes ahead,we have to make it work.

We can trust them.... on what historical grounds are you basing that one on??

To do the best for air support, run that past the CC of South Yorks...

We have to make it work.... Gaffer speak for if I cock it up your still going to live with it and do your best.....

[morris1]

There is nothing in the NPAS ethos that will stop frontline officers using air to ground talk groups to speak directly to aircraft and nothing to remove the autonomy of crews to self deploy.

Well EVERY time and i mean EVERY TIMEi work with BTP Officers on the ground when im flying, the comms are a complete cluster.....
Different officers with different radios, different levels of knoweldge of talkgroups and indeed some that cant even change the ruddy channel on their radio..:bored:

So an officer in humberside wants to deploy an aircraft to an incident in Goole.
He/She has been instructed to do what, shout up on the humbs air to ground..? Oh wait, theyve never worked that way so that could be challenging, but they DO have one in the nationaly mandated folder.(if they find it). But that means BTP monitoring 40 odd air2ground talk groups..??

Otherwise they call up on what,? a nationwide air2ground hailing channel direct to London BTP.. okay..
"BTP control can i have a helicopter please to Back Lane at Goole for intruders on at Walkers Recycling yard. Security cameras have suspects inside the perimeter and are covertly monitering, we have a dog on route and officers are arriving shortly for containment. This is a confirmed break-in-progress."
BTP Reply
"Last Officer, please state your region and county"
Officer
"erm, Humberside..? uuup north"
BTP
"Yes yes, what is the postcode please of the premises"
Officer
"I dont know, its next to the big bakery where all the steam comes out, the helicipoter cant miss it.."
BTP
"Im sorry, we need a post code to respond to your request"
Officer
"standby Ill get it from me satnav..!!!"
BTP
"Thank you, the West Yorks aircraft is currently on a misper search at Halifax, and the Humberside aircraft is engaged on a protracted firearms incident in Sheffield. We are sending the Teesside aircraft to you"
Officer
"How long will that take ?"
BTP
"According to my map, It will only take 25mins once airborne !"
Officer.
"Is it airborne now..?"
BTP
"no"
Officer
"dont bother, we're all here now, we'll manage without, the dog can go in"
:hmm:

But of course NPAS wont allow Officers to call direct. I'll eat my shirt if they do. It will be the Ops Rooms of each force that will be contacting NPAS. Theyll have to because the Ops Inspector needs to know where the nearest a/c is, in case a major job kicks off.
So all that above will take place AFTER the request has gone into the Ops Room.
:D

[Sulley]

Mick85- You state "At last week's symposium there was a mix of Police Officers and pilots with between them,hundreds of years of ASU experience many of whom have been in it since the start. " Yes Mick that part is true, kind of makes me wonder then WHY NOBODY LISTENS TO THEM :ugh:

[Mick85]

Volrider, I would not consider myself a gaffer. I am a cop involved with air support for the last ten years of my service. I am not involved with the NPAS hierarchy, though have every intention of trying to be involved with the consultation and decision making that will have to be done during the next couple of years.

Comms. will be difficult but I am sure we can conjure up one or two regional A2G talk groups that can be monitored at bases within a region. one for the country would be totally unworkable. We already monitor several talk groups and can see no reason why it should be any different in future.

I would like to retain the status quo but cannot see that being an option, given the apparent support at ACPO level.

If you are involved with an ASU make suggestions to your UEOs, Deputies and Chief Pilots all of whom have been invited to join working groups that will steer the future decision making processes.

[timex]

I think we can trust them to do the best for air support with what will be at their disposal.

Are these the same people that wouldn't finish the Symposium with the Q & A session that was planned..?

The only word in that sentence that applies is DISPOSAL..

[Rigga]

volrider,

Think what you want, like I do. I didn't say anything about not supporting some of the views - It's just that some of the posters are apparently lacking in their 'knowledge'.

[volrider]

Mick:I am not involved with the NPAS hierarchy, though have every intention of trying to be involved with the consultation and decision making that will have to be done during the next couple of years.

Umm seems like you have settled as to which side of the fence your going to slide down already:E

Rigga: Think what you want Thanks for the permission:ok:

[Mick85]

As you can see I am an infrequent poster on the rumour network.

I have had my say on this issue and henceforth will utter no more.

I may be tempted back in the future, if for example, the great fuel system icing inhibitor thread of 2007 rears its head again.

Good luck, good hunting and safe flying to all in the ASU community.

[Gas Generator]

For all of those that believe that NPAS will give a better service, try this.

If we are to do this with 20 aircraft then those aircraft need to be strategically positioned nearest to the highest density crime areas. It is those areas that need the quickest response. This is what air support has been working towards since it's birth and by and large the best positions around the country are already there.

Command and control will not work nationally, not on an immediate operational level, you need regional control with a national overview. Nominate one of the regional ASU's as the master controlling ASU and place command watch keeping staff there. They deploy or liaise with a regional aircraft that has self deployed. They then liaise with national HQ and leave the aircraft to get on with the job. If a national commitment comes up then NHQ can liaise with RHQ to deploy elsewhere. It is more joined up and then allows crime to be tackled in time.

You do not need 20 minute circles as weather and topography often dictate that you can give a better service to adjoining forces from slightly further away but more suitable bases - yes, those bases that have taken years of practice and experience to find and cultivate. This will also save money by not having to relocate.

However, I do not think that the public should be treated like idiots and told we can give the same service with less aircraft and less money, that is plainly wrong. There will be a service but not the service people expect or want.
:ugh:

[morris1]

well i for one will be applying for a job in npas as one of the observers. :cool:

Its going to be GREAT when we get one of those nice big shiny 145's from the met, up north to play with :ok:

[Fly_For_Fun]

Its going to be GREAT when we get one of those nice big shiny 145's from the met, up north to play with

Trouble is, they will come with an 'orrible southern pilot attached :(

[morris1]

Nah...

We'll have all the pilots type rated for everything, didnt you hear the NPAS budget for pilotage is limitless. !
Oh thats right their still working on minor details like pilotage and engineering :bored:

I hear the 145 comes with leather seats and cupholders..? :}

[SilsoeSid]

Wouldn't it make sense to distribute the 145s in places to cover areas where the larger type national resource might be utilised more effectively nationally?

Keep one at Lilliput, keep one South West, have one Central, and another oop North.

Sorry, I forgot the National Police Air Support set-up only has the one!

[doublesix]

Hampshire Police Chief Constable Alex Marshall has spearheaded the proposals and will be the head of NPAS.

Wow they did pick someone from a busy air support region to be the bossman didn't they!!.

As someone who was involved in air support for twelve years it makes me want to %%%% that all the effort, dedication and hard work put in by everyone concerned with air support over the years is going down the pan at the stroke of a pen. I've been retired for four years and this still makes my blood boil. Good luck boys and girls and for you out there who think it will work you really are living in dreamland.

[Helinut]

It gets better and better :ugh:

The guy in charge has never had real air support, so he won't ever realise (or care) what he is causing everyone else to lose. Lowest common denominator

[airpolice]

Helinut,

You ought to do some reading before you write.

It gets better and better :ugh:

The guy in charge has never had real air support, so he won't ever realise (or care) what he is causing everyone else to lose. Lowest common denominator



Alex Marshall has recent and long standing experience of the benefits of proper Air Support. He has the best part of thirty years police service with the Met, Cambridge and Thames Valley.

Hardly a man who has no idea.

Chief Constable Alex Marshall joined Hampshire Constabulary from Thames Valley Police, where he was most recently deputy chief constable.

Chief Constable Alex Marshall spent the first 20 years of his career with the Metropolitan Police Service and worked throughout South London before transferring to Cambridgeshire Constabulary in 2000. He also spent time on a secondment to the Home Office as national bureaucracy advisor, visiting police forces in England and Wales to improve the efficiency of frontline policing.

In August 2004, he was appointed assistant chief constable at Thames Valley Police in charge of the Operational Support portfolio. During this time he was Gold commander for Royal Ascot and managed the policing operation for the wedding of HRH Prince Charles and Camilla Parker-Bowles in Windsor. He became acting deputy chief constable in January 2006 and was appointed as deputy chief constable in May 2007. Throughout this time he has overseen the policing of animal rights extremism and, in particular, the campaign against a controversial animal research centre being built by Oxford University.

Mr Marshall, who studied at Wolfson College and the Institute of Criminology at the University of Cambridge and became a Cropwood Fellow in 1999, also obtained a Masters Degree in Criminology at the University of Cambridge in 2006.

At a national level the chief constable is the ACPO lead on air support

[Sulley]

Airpolice- what's your point ? he's a police officer - if these are his ideas then he's quite eloquently proved he knows very little about air support....and thats being generous.:hmm:

[Coconutty]

airpolice :

Sorry - maybe I should have gone to Specksavers - :8 - but where in that glorious resumee,
other than the last line which is his current role, does it provide any information
as to his knowledge of the intricacies and expertise of Police Air Support ?

TC
.... you now have 3 or more 145's which can't hover on nearly full fuel, can't rapid rope and can't fire from the helo.Don't forget the one about tight right hand turns not being recommended below 70Kts ;) -
Useful in the occasional pursuit I would have thought :oh:

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[Earpiece]

I wouldn't normally agree with TC but his post # 741 hits the nail on the head and sums it up in his final sentence. I know because I can see it happening! I sincerely hope that outside this Forum those affected will be passing their knowledge to the "powers that be" so that they cannot claim that they were unaware at any subsequent mismanagement review.

[PANews]

Well noted Coconutty.

Air Police... start at 30 and tick off the years he has been missing from the front line. It does not say what rank he transferred at but he left the Met a decade ago with a rank which was probably an ACPO one.... with 20 years service... not sure when he went to college but that may need to come off too.

Probably significantly less than ten on the streets. The rest may potentially be 'directing paper.'

That does not make him a nasty man in any way.... but drop the number 30 for a start. All CV's are designed to hide the cracks.

[zorab64]

TC, as so often, makes valid points as a result more Police experience than many, if not most , on this thread, allied with some first class work in leading the User Group (the Chairman always being a "token" position!) and therefore having an excellent insight into the working of more than just his own & surrounding units. His lack of recency has no bearing on comment-validity, as the principles of long-range Air Support remain as in-effective for immediate tasks as they always have done.
I've heard the phrase "stretching the elastic" used a few times - which is exactly what will happen. Whether it means an aircraft is just too far away to respond; neighbouring forces' Control Room Inspectors are fighting over the same asset; or holding on for grim death to the wasteful top(ar*e)-cover(ing) for some firearms job - at some stage the elastic will snap, certainly if the flexibility is reduced to the level proposed.

As Art has intimated, we may well end up with aircraft scattered all over the country by the end of a shift, if they're encouraged to stop at the nearest base, post task. Obviously, they'll need to transit back to home-plate, but I forsee a lot of end-of-shift re-positioning if this practice is adopted.

PAN (surely you should know better?) - and others who wish to knock Alex Marshall. Do you hold no respect for those Senior Police Officers with a career of experience; who've earned a Masters degree in a relevant subject; and worked in different force areas to better understand Policing country-wide? Whilst many (if not most) Police are happy to stay as PCs for a whole career, and the service doesn't encourage "Leadership" skills at any rank, these people are the equivalent of Generals or Admirals in military parlance - many of them have also attended Senior military staff courses. They're not fools, are normally more than capable of weighing up the arguments put forward, and are very aware of the political drive behind the initiatives they're asked to investigate. I'd therefore suggest it is disingenuous to knock holes in their credibility by picking holes in their CV.

And no, as I've said before, I'm not supporting, or connected to, NPAS, and remain dismayed by the current proposals which, like TC, I'm sure will not provide anything like an acceptable level of service to the Officer on the ground, or the public who pay. :sad:

[Coconutty]

Does anyone actually know WHERE the National British Transport Control Room is located ?

Is it in London ? or maybe Birmingham ?

Are there any plans for extending the facilities at the site,
and / or increasing numbers of staff to cope with the extra workload,
or are they planning to "make do" with exisiting facilities and staff ?

What is the cost of setting up the National Police Air Operations Control Room ?

If it is to be a new National facility, how was it chosen ?

Were any other sites / locations considered - either within the existing Police infrastructure, or externally ?

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[Gas Generator]

If the central control room will be responding to requests from forces for air support, WHO will make those decisions and based on WHAT experience and WHAT criteria?

At the moment those decisions are made locally by up to two air observers that have a significant amount of experience and have the opportunity to ask the pilot (immediately) if that task can safely and legally be achieved - 3 experienced staff - a crew....

Civy(BTP) call-handlers with no air experience are not going to know what a viable air ops job is going to be. Local control rooms still do not, they go straight to the ASU and ask the crew (who have ACPO clearance to say 'no').

Will the local crew be able to turn down the NPAS request because it is not a viable job?

Will the pilot be able to say no because the weather is not good enough but not reflected on METAR's or TAF's?

When the crew is told to go out of area, will NPAS figure in the time for the crew to be able to check the job details, plan the route, check the weather, update on NOTAM's out of area, brief, take overnight kit and then refuel before departing for what will be an urgent job?

What will happen at national control when they get immediate and simultaneous demand from all or many forces for a helicopter?

One thing no one has touched on in this debate yet is the relationship between the helicopter unit and the local police officers/pcso's. If liaison visits, flying visits and general education that takes place daily between these people stops then relationships will deteriorate. That will make operating with these people more difficult - no more phone calls asking for advice on a job!

This is not the way to go about designing a NPAS - a plea to the NPAS team, please take note of the UEO's/Chief pilot's. It is not too late to think again.
:ugh:

[Thomas coupling]

The new control room will be in the master signal box just outside Crewe station. They plan to transport the spare a/c by rail whenever and wherever they are needed. This will make further savings. They are currently 'training ' up their staff in readiness for Command and Control. 'Lines' of communication will be open as soon as possible. They will do their 'level' best to answer all requests within the national timeframe. Stranded crews who find themselves out of area at the end of their tasking will be offered a free upgrade to 1st class whilst returning to their base.
A spokesman for BNP, the national element of BTP stated that they will not be 'railroaded' into making hasty decisions. We must stay on 'track' and will not be 'siding' with one constabulary or the other. There is no element of 'tunnel' vision here.

A senior government minister for transport was overheard to say: There is light at the end of the tunnel and I'm afraid it is a very very large train:eek:

[MightyGem]

Will the pilot be able to say no because the weather is not good enough but not reflected on METAR's or TAF's?
And they say that there's no such thing as a stupid question. :ugh:

[SilsoeSid]

They plan to transport the spare a/c by rail whenever and wherever they are needed.

Why not a train based base or 2 ?
Buffet car, operations/guard/vehicle/fuel/sleeper/quiet zone carriages, and a helipad.

http://www.triangtrains.co.uk/images/triang%20trains%20heli%20lrg..JPG

[RotaryWingB2]

Why not a train based base or 2 ?
Buffet car, operations/guard/vehicle/fuel/sleeper/quiet zone carriages, and a helipad.

And Sharks with frickin laser beams on their heads.

[SilsoeSid]

Now that's just plain silly, you know we'd end up with mutated Sea Bass!

[Coconutty]

Thomas Coupling :

With respect Sir - I think you're going Loco :p

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[morris1]

Suffice to say, that when questioned about effectiveness, the NPAS management will spout the usual USELESS political tripe that the police always use..

What they WILL say:
Amount of money saved, by the most expensive "old" ASU compared to paying NPAS for Air Support.
How many a/c available
Percent availability
Number of incidents "attended"
Number of hours flown
Which constabularies benefited from increased air support
How many football matches / Large public events attended

What they WONT say:
Amount of money "saved" by the more efficient ASUs ie directly employed pilots and/or engineers.
Percentage split of constabularies taking air support
Number of times a/c successfully deployed to a pursuit (ie arrived whilst in progress).
Number of times deployed to incident request by beat officers.
Number of times request for deployment declined, and why.
Number of prisoners detained as a direct result of the a/c attendance.
Number of missing persons found,as a precentage of deployments to them.
Number of incidents "attended" whereby the a/c didnt actualy arrive..!

Lets face it the data they used so far to justify the whole thing has been made of chocolate, so the future should hold no surprises.

"lies, damn lies, and statistics"

[Spanish Waltzer]

Forgive my intrusion in to this thread but for those of you, like me, following this thread & also the SAR-H one, there seems an awful lot of similarities.

At a time when national SAR helo coverage is about to go through a massive overhaul & potentially see a PFI run the show - with a need to make a profit -it is interesting that comments on here along the lines of less aircraft attempting to do the same job ring true across both disciplines.

How many times recently have SAR & police helos worked alonside each other - certainly doing the S bit of SAR, particularly as they are now also fitted with airwave - I just wonder whether there are certain senior management types on both sides with their heads in the sand thinking it will be ok as we can rely on the other emergency helos to help us out - not realising that they potentially will be just as badly off!

Or maybe the master plan is to also bring the new SAR helos into this NPAS master plan & then tell the public the UK has got more police/SAR helos than ever before....arent we lucky!

[lavalump]

Micks's posts on the previous page just about sum it up....

Everyone knows it's a step back in time and a much reduced capability . If only the bosses (Sir Hugh et al) didn't have the gall to sell it as an "enhanced service". Trouble is, those units unaffected are pulling up the ladder, the rest left adrift. It was plain to see people feathering their nests last week, deciding which aircraft type was going to prevail, where the engineering could be done etc. If we spoke with one voice we might be better placed, but no, human nature prevails. In any case it was us UEOs/DUEOs that chose to support a National plan, albeit with good intentions, but it's been hijacked and can only be considered a massive own goal.
I feel very sorry for the people who are going to be made redundant. There are two winners, the organised criminal who now knows not only will a pursuit be stopped if he drives recklessly enough but also that there'll be no useful air support nearby, and the bosses with a nice shiny entry on their CV.

[mickjoebill]

What is the cost of setting up the National Police Air Operations Control Room ?

Central dispatch? What do they think they are running... a taxi firm?

Failings of a state wide central command of forces has been detailed in Victoria's Royal Commission into Feb 7th bushfires.

In general the new thinking is for autonomous local decision making rather than centralised control.
I accept that there is a big difference in scale between dispatching 50,000 volunteer firefighters with 3000 vehicles, and control of 25 choppers!
But the principle remains the same. Network rather than hierarchical management enabling autonomy of local crews is a far more effective approach to respond to rapidly developing local incidents.


Mickjoebill

[Sulley]

Lava-exactly, there isn't an awful lot of useful information just a lot of unanswered questions. I doubt much more will be forthcoming ....until the empire building phase is complete:suspect: How many times has Liverpool's aircraft been targeted by the criminal fraternity? .. when all they had to do was wait ,and the Police will remove it for them ...nice :(

[morris1]

It was plain to see people feathering their nests last week, deciding which aircraft type was going to prevail, where the engineering could be done etc.

So are NSPAS sorry NPAS saying that the staff currently at units which are to remain, are safe in their jobs. With staff elsewhere off to the job centre.?

Surely a legal case would ensue if mere geography cost you your livelyhood.?

Or are they going to start with a clean slate and table full of CVs from everyone.?

[Retro Coupe]

Or are they going to start with a clean slate and table full of CVs from everyone.?

Having attended the symposium I can tell you that we were told that pilots would have to apply for a position in NPAS, and it would be open to anyone with suitable experience. What we weren't told however was whether or not we would be directly employed by NPAS or by a sub-contractor. It was also put to us that direct or outsourced employment might vary from region to region. As far as observers are concerned they will have to apply for a secondment to NPAS. Also the employment of civilian observers was not ruled out. So if you are currently a police observer and fancy continuing after your retirement from the police service, then the door is open to you.

[g-mady]

Sounds a very plausible idea to me. Using "civy" observers...

By why suggest such a wage drop (from the public sector observers) :=

MADY

[Digital flight deck]

I am new here, but have been following this with interest. I think the whole world is having to adjust the way things are done, over here in the US it is probably worse than in the UK. I think those that are left in employment should feel relieved and the companies that let people go should do it with sensitivity. This is where we are.

[SilsoeSid]

Having attended the symposium I can tell you that we were told that pilots would have to apply for a position in NPAS, and it would be open to anyone with suitable experience. What we weren't told however was whether or not we would be directly employed by NPAS or by a sub-contractor. It was also put to us that direct or outsourced employment might vary from region to region.

Clear as mud then!

What will be interesting is when some forces are told they would have to make their pilots redundant and consequently give them a redundancy payment, only to find the same faces doing the same job, in the same base, covering the same area, with the same aircraft and probably the same observers!

Another few 10's of thousands of pounds spent in the name of savings!