Bmibaby

[revo]

I was wondering how WW is coping with the oil prices?

Also i wanted to know when the winter schedules will be released

[adam12345]

It looks like it is make or break month for BmiBaby....

The decision on the airlines future operations is set to be made in the next month.

http://www.compare-airport-parking.co.uk/news/728/Bmibaby-Consider-Cutbacks.html

Lets hope they continue to operate and expand from all of there hubs. :ok:

[Mr Flaps]

If you look at the baby website there are new routes coming in the near feature and new boss too. I dont think baby is going anywhere fast like the rest of the bmi group.
New routes Milan, Madrid and Barelona.

[uncovered]

What's this about a new boss at Baby. Please do tell more!!

[BYALPHAINDIA]

Think Big Brother Turnher will keep WW floating.

Think if WW finished, MB would see this as a personal failure.

BD/BMI don't do failure after 60+ years of op's.:D

[bruppy]

Bmibaby announce a £4-6 charge for the pleasure of checking in at the airport, mirroring the charge MOL introduced over a year ago.
INET check in will be increased for the Spanish destinations as well however pax must still queue at check in to submit APIS details and if they dont they will be offloaded at the gate (no appeal). negates the advantage of INET check in really!!!
FR & EZE both do APIS on line & if the pax has not submitted within 24hrs of Flt , booking is suspended.
I can see a good few arguements over this one.:mad::mad::mad:

[TG345]

So does anyone know when baby will release seats for winter 08/09?

[barrowboyblue!]

Give me strength!!! Have we hit an all time low on P.prune...

Quote:
''The decision on the airlines future operations is set to be made in the next month. ''

The quote is from COMPARE AIRPORT PARKING.com!!!!

Guess that's what the dogger's think then:\
- but please hardly the sharp or most informed end of the aviation industry!!:ugh::ugh:

regards bbb

[mathers_wales_uk]

BmiBaby is introducing a check-in fee of £6 at airport and £4 if you let them know when you book online.

Until the system is up and running then the winter flights cannot be uploaded. (A case of all winter flights will be subject to these charges).

I doubt baby are pulling out of Cardiff as they have sent new barriers over for check-in, along with new cabin baggage measure scales and that Cardiff is one of the places listed on with these check-in charges.

Baby is here to stay and if the 5 a/c from Virgin Nigeria along with the other that is due then i would expect to see a 4th a/c at Cardiff.

[mathers_wales_uk]

well why introduce the checking in fee at cardiff if they were going to close the base, according to the bmibaby station manager at cardiff, it is not true.

[Little Blue]

The only thing that we're closing at the moment is the window in Ops, cos it's bloody chilly tonight !:)

[1545]

Various business news sources are today saying that Baby are going to double the MAN operation, with more destinations in France, Spain, Italy and Poland. 100 more jobs will be created, according to Crawford Rix.

Anybody got some more info?

[TwinAisle]

Sounds like the press release put out on 22 May to me.

http://news.ebookers.com/news/bmibaby-plans-manchester-airport-growth/002/

TA

[frfly]

Are WW starting to suffer with their older a/c? Tonight some pretty major delays in and out of BHX, with EDI being badly effected. the 1006 operated to EMA with pax being bussed. The a/c also suffered a tech fault in EDI with a fuel pump fault, which caused a further delay.

When travelling as a passenger, I regularly chose WW over competition. But some of the delays I have seen recently lead me to wonder how long WW have before their older fleet let them down.

With EZY and FR in much stronger positions both financially and with modern aircraft, I hope they dont squash airlines such as WW, but all the facts sadly seem to point this way in the next 12 - 18 months.

It would be such a tradegy to see an airline with superior customer service (in comparison to other LCC's) go under due to market conditions.

[The_Bean_Counter]

What will their reaction be to the new FR routes launched today, does this put them in serious trouble ?

[Topslide6]

No. Why should it? :ugh: :rolleyes:

[uncovered]

Basic rules of aviation economics make it plain that todays announcements mean Baby will lose £4.5m to £5m in revenue from the routes FR are now in competition with them on. So yes it will have a very big effect. They will have to adjust capacity or it's a £5m hit to an already negative bottom line.

[adam12345]

Yes this is true, however by BmiBaby should be able to cope as they have battled with Ryanair at EMA and seem to have done very well. On the Alicante route they battled with Easyjet and Ryanair and seem to do okay..:ok:

[Topslide6]

adam12345, exactly. Ryanair being at EMA actually created revenue and passengers.

Uncovered, I assume you are an 'airline economist', or work in airline management in some capacity and have some knowledge and experience to back up your statement. Didn't think so.

...or it's a £5m hit to an already negative bottom line.

Proof? No. Didn't think that either. :rolleyes:

[adam12345]

BmiBaby have today released there winter schedule.

[MonkeyB]

Not all of it, just sun routes.

MB

[OliWW]

Looking at the sun routes for baby this winter, and, even though there are only a few destinations avaliable already, I have to say, there isnt a lot of flights atall, by the looks of it, there would only be 4 aircraft based at EMA...

Based in January-

MALAGA = Wednesday, Saturday, Sunday
ALICANTE = Tuesday, Saturday, Sunday
PALMA = Tuesday, Saturday
GENEVA = Monday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday

Prague would most likely be 4x a week
Jersey between 3x and 4x a week
Warsaw might be 3x a week

[CabinCrewe]

Anyone know why the NOC-GLA service is cancelled today ?

[IB4138]

Glad I booked with ZB when their W08 flights came out in April, for AGP-MAN in December and didn't hold back, as WW are only offering 3/4 x weekly Tuesday, Friday/Saturday (varies) and Sunday.

Very poor.

Where's the so called expansion at MAN?

[OliWW]

Werent they having a meeting on the 22nd June (today) about expansion... whats happened with this?

[bmibabyfc]

a meeting on a Sunday???

[FlyboyUK]

bmibaby is the most punctual low cost carrier based on the latetst flight on time statistics :ok:

FLIGHTONTIME.info - Low Cost Airline Delays & Punctuality in the UK (http://www.flightontime.info/loco/loco.html)

[0523 cov man]

bmi baby have got the nick name bni may be:uhoh:

[mathers_wales_uk]

after following the link i am suprised to see that EMA and CWL have no info on them but EDI does.

Very well done for BmiBaby to this but i would to see how this continues with the airframes getting older and older.

In all fairness they do try their best to re-shuffle flights during tech aircraft to try and get the majority on a minimum delay and also bring a/c in from other bases to cover AOG a/c.

Hope this continues, excellent news for the small LO-CO

[excrewingbod]

EMA and CWL are not monitored under CAA stats, which is where flightontime get their info from.

Considering bmibaby's punctuality performance over prior years, there has been a big improvement. Whatever they have done to their schedules/turnarounds its worked and hopefully this level of performance will continue.

[adam12345]

BmiBaby have released there winter schedule on the rest of there routes.

Stopped Routes:
Birmingham: Bordeaux, Krakow, Madrid, Marseille, Rome
East Midlands: Nice
Manchester: Bordeaux, Lisbon, Madrid, Newquay, Perpignan

Also No New Routes Announced Yet.

[lexxity]

Baby have never served Aberdeen from Manchester. That's a regional route and I can't see the oil companies letting that be dropped.

[virgin_cc_wannabe]

What a shame. Looks like manchester is going to be without a madrid connection once again.
MAN needs the likes of EZY, CLK or even RYR to get this route going. Im sure theyd make a bomb!
Whatever happened to TOM and LIS, I thought they were doing well but the route seems to have dissapeared without any news as to why?

[flowy50]

Barcelona from cwl new winter route

[OliWW]

I can understand why these routes have been dropped for the winter because they are more summer routes than winter routes, but I cant understand why Krakow from BHX has been dropped, from what ive heard its been doing average...

[CabinCrewe]

GLA-NOC doesnt appear bookable in Winter.

[egnxema]

OliWW

"Doing average..." is probably the reason it has been dropped.

[OliWW]

I surpose, but you could also argue the fact it was 3/4x weekly, it could have been dropped to 2x a week, and flights would have been more full.

[bmia330]

BHX-Krakow hasn't been dropped, it's bookable on the Baby website!

[FlyZB]

I thought baby had their sights set on expanding their operations at MAN, not dropping routes. Has this got anything to do with aircraft shortages? I know that currently they only have 2 baby machines based at MAN, 2 bmi A320s are covering the rest of the routes this week. There has been a mixture of A319s/320s & 321s covering their operation since the start of the Summer season.

[OltonPete]

Is this the final schedule for winter?

I have not gone through the schedule totally but BHX goes from 8 based
to five departures some mornings but seem to need six at night.

Also if fuel is the only problem why are they operating half empty 733's
to BFS and continuing with long flights (long for baby) to AGP, KRK
MJV and ALC with FR and ZB on some of these routes.

I suspected BHX would go down to 6 based but FCO, LIS & MAD
averaged over 100 per flight even in winter. I understand with
winter fares and the price of fuel that these flights would be under pressure (despite no competition) but I just find it difficult to believe
that Belfast, Malaga & Alicante yield more in the winter with the
amount of competition. I suppose saying that it could have been worse.

Pete

[OliWW]

I was expecting either Ryanair to reduce or drop BHD and or bmibaby for BFS, but it seems the same as normally, 5 flights between them on a weekday, which seems very very odd... i dont think ive seen either of Ryanair's flights above 90pax onboard at one time

[viscount702]

I don't think this is the full list. Depending on the where you look on the website there is different information.

In one part is says to look out for further flights

Viscount

[Budfrey27]

.......i was waiting to board an EMA bound flight last year with FR from BHD and exactly 140 pax got off the flight from EMA (i counted them sadly)..that is the total allowed i believe!!!

Bud

[OliWW]

Well last year there was only 1x Daily... where as from Feb 08 it was 2x Daily, so its like that number, divided between 2 flights, and thats what the pax has been like.

[Budfrey27]

...until they start BHX-BHD i will use EMA regularly...i actually prefer FR as there are always quite a few spare seats!
Nowt like spreading out....
cheers
Bud

[FlyboyUK]

I would suspect that the winter schedule hasn't been finalised yet as Olton Pete says.

It's normal for the likes of BOD to be summer only routes, but just because a route doesn't appear on the booking system at the moment, doesn't mean the route has been dropped.

There seems to be a lot of jumping to conclusions.

[airhumberside]

baby website states 'all winter flights on sale'

[bmia330]

Baby website also states 'There are loads more winter destinations to be released on sale soon, so keep your eyes peeled!'

[EGAC_Ramper]

Travel regularly back and forth every 2 weeks on the FR flight between EMA and BHD and certainly the evening flights I've been on have been operating with 120-140 pax on generally both ways, the early morning rotation not quite so. Now maybe not quite so busy but it keeps an a/c busy for 2hrs in the day that you could not fly to anywhere more lucrative in the time.


Regards

[flowy50]

egac_ramper (http://www.pprune.org/forums/members/88824-egac_ramper) why are you telling people about fr on the baby forum why dont you use fr forum please.:ugh:

[CabinCrewe]

Flowy50
If you had read the other posts you will see why the FR flights were mentioned. It seems entirely reasonable given the topics being discussed including the loads etc on the Baby Belfast routes.

[EGAC_Ramper]

As mentioned if you read earlier posts you would realise I was responding to the comments made.:ugh:


CabinCrewe cheers! :D


regards :ok:

[INKJET]

Bmi could do far worse than put an ERJ on the EMA-BHD routes, whilst the fares would be far above Ryanairs it would take most of the last minute business traffic from Ryanair that want to go to the city rather than Aldergrove. Its good to see that baby aren't cutting and running on the BFS service, although they do need to get back on track with reliabilty issues at weekends.

[CabinCrewe]

I always thought the GLA-NOC service was an odd choice for their first venture into ex-Scottish international ops. Looks like that nail has been hit on the head. It never worked with a 35 seater so why would it work with a 130 seater ?

[mathers_wales_uk]

Whats up with Bmibaby today? I'm guessing they were very short of airframes as GTOYC positioned to EMA at midnight and a titan a/c was chartered in to operate the WW2643/4 CWL-ALC-CWL.

They must have serious problems for them having to lease the aircraft. I have noticed that there is a photo available of EI-CSU (GTOYL) all painted in BmiBaby colours in Budapest. When are they expecting delivery of this a/c as there was one due May 08 along with another GTOYI.

I have recentally heard that Virgin Nigeria's B733's are to be sold to bmibaby before the end of 2008. Ex easyjet aircraft..

Reg.

5N-VNC ex G-EZYN
5N-VND ex G-EZYM
5N-VNE ex G-EZYP
5N-VNF ex G-EZYR
5N-VNG ex G-EZYS
and also
UR-GAH of Ukraine Intl Airlines
http://www.pprune.org/forums/images/statusicon/user_offline.gif http://www.pprune.org/forums/images/buttons/report.gif (http://www.pprune.org/forums/report.php?p=4106227)

Does anybody have any further info on these and whether or not they are true?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
I am glad that BmiBaby has kept the WAW and the BCN at Cardiff, and in all very pleased with the winter schedule especially after previouse reports from a local paper.

I am however suprised that they have decided to increase the frequency of the BFS to x 2 daily, but hope that the gamble pays off for them and that both Flybe and WW can remain comfortably on the route.

I am intreagued by the statement by Crawford Rix which is on the CWL website "bmibaby continue to be the only airline at Cardiff Airport pioneering truly low fares on domestic and European routes with flights starting from just £18.99 one way, including taxes and charges. We remain committed to developing and expanding our services at Cardiff International Airport and more news will be announced over the coming months as we put our growth plans into action".

I know that they can see Cardiff as a 4 aircraft base but how soon are they planning on this to happen?

[jerboy]

I have noticed that there is a photo available of EI-CSU (GTOYL) all painted in BmiBaby colours in Budapest. When are they expecting delivery of this a/c as there was one due May 08 along with another GTOYI.

The last I heard was that baby were no longer acquiring these two a/c... seems weird that at least one is painted in baby colours though.

Don't shoot the messenger! Its what I've heard so may or may not be true!

They certainly have been short of a/c recently, been a nightmare down in JER with BHX flights operating to EMA and vice versa (pissing off the pax no end!). Also had Titan G-POWC operating for us the other day.

[mathers_wales_uk]

JetPhotos.Net Photo » EI-CSU (CN: 27626) bmibaby Boeing 737-36E by Atika (http://www.jetphotos.net/viewphoto.php?id=6265132&nseq=0)

Her is the link of the photo which was taken end of may, any news on delivery of new a/c?

[OliWW]

I heard that its still in Budapest, and is still having work done to it, but this guy told me it was coming to the UK on the 29th July...

[FlyboyUK]

Interesting to see a subtle change in the livery with "Tiny" being drawn slightly differently on YL

[OliWW]

YL is now due into East Midlands 28/29 July, it was surpose to get a slot this evening while being in shannon, but hasn't yet, so it could be either one of the days. Also YI is still in Canada i believe :confused:... And I read on the internet today that they are to hold delivery of the aircraft until February 09?...

[Mr A Tis]

TOYI delivered into East Mids last night ( 28th).
Any idea when it'll enter revenue service?

[FlyboyUK]

I would expect within the next few days. It didn't take long to get last year's arrivals on the line.

Looks like there should be another new arrival next week too :ok:

[mathers_wales_uk]

I have seen now that Jethro's is showing GTOYL as due 08 and now another aircraft GTOYM is to be delivered in 08 too.

Anyone know if theres more on the cards as i guess these are to replace the 735.

[OliWW]

Some people are saying that YM is now at EMA, some are saying that YI are at EMA... I thought it was YL at the start, so apologies.

[Brushtype4]

Can assure you that the baby 737 in the bmi hangar in EMA is YI.

YM is in Singapore with an Indian reg on and not expected for a week or so.

YI in SNN with it's original Irish reg and revised delivery date awaited.

[CabinCrewe]

Surely YI cant be in EMA and SNN ?

[Brushtype4]

Sorry. YI in EMA, YL in SNN.

[OliWW]

I hear that YI will start full operations on Saturday 2nd August... replacing G-POWC which is at EMA at the moment helping out... YL is then expected around about the 15-16th August, and then YM at the end of august aparantally

[mathers_wales_uk]

Anyone know ig YD is back from BCN? Went Tech last night, apparently sub charter operating this mornings FAO from CWL (think it's european)

[OliWW]

I dont think it is, it might have something to do with the EDI flight which has been cancelled, maybe because its still out there and dont no when it will be back

[jubilee]

Baby have/are starting three new routes from Manchester this summer,
Bcn-Lis-Mad. Barcelona is the only route showing as bookable through the winter, but is the only route where they face competition(Monarch).

Would they not be better concentrating on Madrid and Lisbon,where they have no competition? Answers please.
Regards,
Jubilee.

[groundedforgood]

It is confusing isn't it? Exactly the same could be said of Birmingham where there is a greater frequency of flights by WW to these destinations ie: Lisbon has run 5 times per week since March against the two ex-Manchester from June. I travel BHX-LIS frequently and it's built up quite a following from BHX, I couldn't understand why it's been dumped for the winter. There again, I'm no bean counter so the economics of the routes may not be worth it, loads look fine but heaven knows what the yields are. Lets hope that they return in spring 09.

[Mr. Blonde]

YI entered service Saturday 2nd from EMA to EDI then ALC - and has a new billboard style paintjob

YM due in a matter of days.

YL now due in the Autumn to replace -300 G-BYZJ which is going off lease (also oldest one in the fleet).

:ok:

[baps]

Did baby have some probs over the weekend? Saw a regional Embraer operating a baby flight in ALC as well as a mainline Airbus! A long slog for the regional boys and girls!!

[Ian Brooks]

Baby are using a mainline bus for most of the summer ex MAN
but there are also mainline charters to the Med from several airports as well

Ian

[MUFC_fan]

They are operating two actually.

1 A319 and 1 A321 which are making appearances right across the WW network from MAN. Fancy travelling on an A321 to Belfast?:ok:

[chrisnutter1]

The A321 G-MIDC that baby have leased has been "nicked" by BMI to operate their charters from either LBA or EMA as G-MIDL is/was tech in Faro. baby flights that were scheduled for the A321 ex MAN have been op by BMI
A319 (baby cabin crew) and ERJ 145 (regional crew) as an over-spill. So far the ERJ has been to BOD, PRG, BFS and ALC!

A further BMI A319 has been leased for AUG G-DBCH as some of our "new"
73's haven't arrived yet!

[OliWW]

Will bmibaby be adding there new billboard colours to there other aircraft?

[caaardiff]

There must be a shortage somewhere, WW sub-chartered a MAN flight to a TOM 767-200 last week. Hows that for low-cost cabin space!

[OliWW]

A few weeks ago, people were saying that bmibaby would be annoucing 5 new routes from EMA, any more news on this, ive just looked at the proposed winter program, looks fine, gone upto 2x daily on Sunday for Paris, quite a few empty spaces though, especially from about 10.30 till 4pm... almost 2 aircraft just sitting around in that space... so as always in the winter, theres still room for more flights...

[jerboy]

I hear someone's managed to put a hole in the side of YI already? Must be some record, we've only had the aircraft just over a week!

[OltonPete]

Per another forum it happened in Alicante on the 5th just before
departing to EMA. ACARSD shows it got back to EMA and was out
of action until the 8th but it has been busy since.

I tried to post the acarsd data but I could not format it correctly.

The first flight was from EMA on the 2nd, which means it did get a
couple of incident free days!

It has been operating out of BHX the last few days but positioned
to EMA in the early hours and is currently operating the EDI.

Pete

[SAM-EMA]

Does anyone know where exactly this hole is located?, because I may know what happened. Are you sure for definate it occured at ALC?

SAM-EMA

[OltonPete]

SAM-EMA

No not sure at all just reporting from another forum.

I would imagine it was ALC or EMA as it disappears from
acarsd for three days after the ALC-EMA sector.

The post I saw stated it flew back low level from ALC
but I can't verify this and the flight level was not mentioned.

Pete

[INKJET]

From what i have heard inbound crew were unaware of damage until crew change and walk around by new crew, damage caused by belt loader safety rail, probably at EMA

[bodgejob]

the dent was on the upper corner of the aft cargo door

[flyer2308]

I was no1 on board yi when it was damaged, everyone was unaware of damage until crew taking over did their walkround.

Also at ema one of the menzies guys came onboard to report it saying that it was there when they went to open hold and didn't want to touch hold till it was reported! so assume it was done in alc after the walkround!

[OltonPete]

Per another site VT-SJD 733 due at EMA tonight, which is believed
to become G-TOYM.

Maybe not quite the cavalry but I am sure very welcome to baby.

It is not a stranger to BHX as it is reported as ex BA G-OHAJ!

Good to see a full compliment just before I use them next week.

Pete

[INKJET]

From the damage reports the crew taking over the aircraft reported that the hold was already open with the loader in place when the damage was spotted the gingerbeers are certain that it happened in EMA on arrival, i would be intrested to hear what SAM-EMA knows and no doubt the bean counters in TT & Toad hall would

[flyer2308]

interesting as like i said the menzies guys said he wanted to make sure that it was reported before they went near it! but from what you say the loader was i place! hhmmm

[NJTCF]

Not Seen it reported G-TOYM < VT-SJD > Has been delivered 2 EMA. Its in Bmi Main Hanger.

[OliWW]

I saw it come in, from the angle I was at it looked completely white, though I only really saw the front of it, Should be in service by late next week I think

[OltonPete]

NJTCFPost 93? G-TOYM registered 15/08/08 per G-INFO (CAA)Pete

[OliWW]

Is G-TOYM out of the hangers now, because she was regd on the 15th?? If so will some of the bmi leased aircraft return to bmi?

[kris26uk]

Currently have 2 737 operating (bmibaby own aircraft), 1 bmi a321 and 1 bmi a319. Baby cabin crew at MAN have been trained on all 3 aircraft types and operate on the bmi aircraft under bmi AOC and with bmi flight deck crews. Interesting to know whether these aircraft will stay for the winter, as it seems pointless to train the crew for only a few months operation on the bmi aircraft

A321 a/c ops MAN-PMI-MAN-BOD-MAN-PRG-MAN mon to fri
and MAN-BFS-MAN-AGP-MAN-PRG-MAN sat
and MAN-AGP-MAN-BFS-MAN-ALC-MAN sun

and a319 doing a variety of things mainly MAN-JER-MAN-NOC-MAN-MAD-ORK-MAN during week and certain days MAN-LIS-MAN and a varied selection of late flying ex MAN.
different combinations for the A319 depending on day of week

737 ops MAN-BFS-MAN-AGP-MAN-ALC-MAN
and also MAN-PGF-MAN-NQY-MAN-ORK-MAN

[Copenhagen]

Currently have 2 737 operating (bmibaby own aircraft), 1 bmi a321 and 1 bmi a319. Baby cabin crew at MAN have been trained on all 3 aircraft types and operate on the bmi aircraft under bmi AOC and with bmi flight deck crews.

Why dont BD for once and for all drop the bmibaby brand and AOC, and just operate one airline with one AOC and one set of management, advertising, back office website, etc.... how much does the WW head office function cost each year?

[EI-BUD]

Copenhagen

Bmibaby and Bmi are 2 different propositions. The offering of bmi is not a loco airline and it is a higher cost operation. While there would be cost savings streamlining the company into one entity, Management would be looking at `an airline´ rather than 2 and I feel that baby would be lost within such a system.

Besides all that baby has been well established in the bases where it operates. My own personal opinion is that it will be sold in 2009 and the excuse will be like BAs reason for giving up BAconnect. ´no longer fits into the strategy´!

[Copenhagen]

The offering of bmi is not a loco airline and it is a higher cost operation.

SAS tried low cost with Snowflake, and it was a huge failure (one of many SAS failures). It just seems to me, as an outsider, that having two 'sister' airlines based in one airport, each with its own management, brand, bookings, and basically offering a similar buy on board product doesnt make sense.

Now that they are even sharing aircraft, with the Bmi fleet flying Baby routes, it just gets way too complex. Wouldnt it make sense for the group to have one brand - and do it properly. Surely some of the bmibaby markets would connect into bmi flights at manchester to scotland and the americas, which would help the fleet. I have flown with baby and bmi, and could not really see a difference from a passenger viewpoint.

[bmi expat]

bmibaby may be using bmi aircraft in Manchester at the moment, but the reservations, cabin crew and onboard service are all bmibaby. It is no different to any other airline that subs in aircraft from another carrier. bmibaby and bmi co exist in Manchester very well as different airlines, each run in very different ways that suit their operational requirements

The idea that bmi and bmibaby should be merged in order to reduce costs is ridiculous as bmibaby's operating costs are much lower than bmi's with completely different operational structures, labour contracts, business models etc... that suit both airline's positions in their respective markets.

[OliWW]

Wont the bmi aircraft be gone by the fleet by the Winter or Later summer period anyway, G-TOYM and G-TOYI are now in the fleet, and G-TOYL is on the way, and so they won be needed when the season comes to a end... and with G-TOYN and G-TOYP and G-TOYR coming next year I doubt they will be needed then either.

[bmi expat]

Don't be too surprised to see the A321 back next summer. The loads and onboard sales have been fantastic and the whole Manchester based cabin crew have been trained on the A321 as well as the A319 so it would make sense.

[INKJET]

Couldn't agree more, there is a buzz about baby at the minute, with good loads and lots of repeat business, of course winter is to come yet and who knows? one thing for sure baby can probably make more use of the seats on a 321 in summer than bmi so why not.


More news to come on this front i gather

[jubilee]

Just booked flights from the pit in London,with BMI. Fares cheaper than Baby from EMA - BHX - MAN. and no baggage charge, check in fees etc.
Regards
Jubilee

[NJTCF]

Would Be Good to see An Airbus 321 in Full Baby Scheme:ok:. As is Said above loads have been very good on the A321 Flights Out of Man. Revenue Man At Tiny town have been Selling the flights to full capacity for the A321. Thats why when one does go tech they have had to hire a bigger a/c IE The BY 767. As the 733 is to small being only 148 seats.

[OliWW]

So could we see baby buying A320's or B738 in the future then :ok:

[OltonPete]

Further to what I have posted on the Birmingham thread, I have checked
a few dates for all their bases and it seems BHX & Cardiff are the ones
to have suffered the cutbacks.

From their original release

BHX-ABZ - from 11 to 6 a week
BHX-MJV - 2 a week to just operating at Christmas/New Year
BHX-KRK - 2 a week to just operating at Christmas/New Year
BHX-WAW - 2 a week to just operating at Christmas/New Year
BHX-JER - Non ops at all from 28/9
BHX-FAO - from one a week to nil (not sure about Christmas)

Already known - FCO, LIS, MAD, BCN, NCE, BOD & MRS suspended
to February or end of March onwards.

EMA-PRG - 4 a week to none but EMA-WAW continues throughout

CWL-BFS I think 12 a week to 7 or 8 at times
CWL-WAW - 2 a week to Christmas/New Year
CWL MJV - 2 a week to none ops?
CWL-FAO 2 a week to one

MAN - No change spotted.

GLA-NOC still operating I believe from the BHX base.

Might be a couple of errors from trying to understanding various
notes I have made.

No problem with Warsaw airport as the EMA continues at three
a week at the moment.

Pete

[Vuelo]

MAN - GNB is rumoured as is MAN -LGW, the latter seemingly a tos up between WW or U2.

MAn could do with some Eastern Euro routes, if there are aircraft going free.

[Tower1]

Went Man-Pmi, Friday 7Nov, 7a.m. flight, aircraft cabin freezing, lots of hot drinks sold. Returned this evening 10 November, cabin hot, lots of cold drinks sold.
Do the crew regulate cabin temperature to suit in flight sales according to time of day,or was I just unlucky with the temperature settings.
Regards
Tower
PS. Aircraft going out was named Robin Hood Baby, Reg not noted. Return aircraft was I think G-TOYG. name not noted.

[mathers_wales_uk]

I believe the cabin temperature is controlled in the flight deck, i'm sure if you notified them it was too cold or too hot they may have adjusted it for you.

GOBMP - Robin Hood Baby
GTOYG - Butterly Baby

GTOYL

Does anyone knw whats happened to the delivery of this aircraft? It is not showing on Jethro's anymore.

Cheers

[North Stand Tier3]

TOYL not coming. A/C never fully made it onto the UK register and it may well end up going back across the pond from Shannon under its present markings. Far too many reasons to explain why it didn't make it into the Baby fleet

Tower - next time have a quiet word with the Number One. I'm sure she could relay a message to the F/O to adjust the temperature. That's what he's there for ;)

Du hast mir nicht gesehen, richtig...............

[8028410q]

I agree with NST3, ask the CM (Cabin Manager) and it's just a quick 'ding' to the flight deck and the F/O can tweak the right pack temperature controller up a bit (or down) and you'll be sweating (or shivering) in no-time!

And for the dig about the F/O being there only to adjust the temperature, I am insulted!
Courtosey of Babel fish "Meine Anwesenheit auf dem Führerraum ist, das Gewicht Ihrer Mappe zu balancieren!" :rolleyes:

[Vuelo]

What are WW's plans for MAN next summer? Any expansion at all?

[8028410q]

5 aircraft to be based at MAN.

[Vuelo]

Any more new routes? And does that iclude the A321 they used this past summer?

[SR71]

TOYL?,

Don't think it ever made it here did it?

Cayman Airways Boosts Fleet (http://www.caymannetnews.com:80/news-11176--1-1---.html)

:\

[North Stand Tier3]

Reading the article, you'd have thought it had seen service with Baby. Never really came close

Right, I'll get me coat.........

[OliWW]

I asked one of the senior crew at EMA today about TOYL and they said that it will be coming to bmibaby, but not until the start of June 2009 to be in service for the middle of June

[mathers_wales_uk]

The report does sound as if it is a winter only lease and hopefully will be here for summer unless the new owners LH have any other ideas.

[Vuelo]

What charter ops are WW doing from BHX this winter?

[Keyvon]

WW will be doing a Saturday charter flight to VBS (Italy) for Thomas Cook skiing holidays.

[FR-]

Anyone know what is going to happen to Baby yet, I heard flyby maybe interested.

[JAR]

I think you heard wrong if you meant Flybe.

[North Stand Tier3]

TOYL may well end up appearing at some point but if so, it will more than likely be another airframe. However, with the uncertainty over LH's intentions for Baby, I wouldn't hold your breath

Too many people seem to think acquiring an a/c on lease is as simple as picking up a new car. The whole history of the a/c and its components have to be gone through, aswell as its physical condition, prior to acceptance. Anything not picked up on acceptance becomes your cost liability at its next 'C' check or when you hand it back whether or not the discrepancy came during service with your airline. Read into that what you will

Du hast mir nicht gesehen, richtig.........

[avrodamo]

I am an FO. My job seems to involve turning the temp up and down in the cabin. I have noticed that if i keep the cabin cold then hot drink sales increase, and vice versa. :}

[Facelookbovvered]

Avrodam

Don't give the likes of MOL/PM any ideas its cold enough with having to turn the APU off everytime we stop, belive me its cold already in Brat/Lodz without flying around cold trying drum up sales of over priced coffee:(

[Flightrider]

If bmibaby are operating charter flights this winter, are they going to get their licence sorted out? According to the CAA website, they only have a scheduled service route licence and not a charter one.

[avrodamo]

Im pretty sure Baby knows whats required before they a charter. WE have been doing ad-hoc ones for years!

[babymike737]

I've had a whisper from a very good source that Lufthansa have big plans for bmibaby! I can't say to much but it looks like talks in motion about A319's to be purchased from September 2009!

:ok:

[Copenhagen]

European winter capacity down by 2.3%; UK and Spain struggling, Turkey booming | anna.aero (http://www.anna.aero/2008/11/14/european-winter-capacity-down-by-2-point-3-percent/)

shows Bmibaby capacity this winter down by 23% this winter.

[NJTCF]

They Could Call It Germanbaby or Babywings :ok:

[Little Blue]

Nah.....there's only one possible name !!

ACHTUNG BABY !!!

[Daza]

How about Lufthansakinder?
Good news about A319s maybe Lufthansa can give BMIBaby some direction?
Daza

[adam12345]

Plane lands with cracked window



A passenger plane has made an emergency landing at Birmingham International Airport after a crack was found in a side window.
The BMI Baby service from Belfast arrived at the airport just after 0900 GMT. No-one was hurt in the incident.
The firm said the aeroplane landed safely and added "at no point were passengers or crew in danger".
The flight from Belfast was destined for Birmingham but an emergency landing was declared as a precaution, it said.
Fire and ambulance services were alerted and sent to the runway. West Midlands Fire Service said it sent three appliances to the scene. BMI Baby said in a statement: "As a precautionary measure, flight WW1022 from Belfast International Airport to Birmingham International Airport, on 19 November 2008, declared an emergency landing due to a cracked side window."


BBC NEWS | England | West Midlands | Plane lands with cracked window (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/west_midlands/7737256.stm)

[Tower1]

AVRODAMO.
After reading about the CC of Air Canada taking over from the FO, maybe you should polish up your tea making skills.
Tower.

[K.Whyjelly]

I've had a whisper from a very good source that Lufthansa have big plans for bmibaby! I can't say to much but it looks like talks in motion about A319's to be purchased from September 2009!

:ok:

Looks like DLH big plans may invlove getting rid of WW.........................:eek:
Business Feed Article | Business | guardian.co.uk (http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/feedarticle/8044217)

[grundyhead]

Journo's are fab aren't they?

Fire and ambulance services were alerted and sent to the runway.

:hmm::hmm:

[Hudson Bay]

A very sad day. Another Airline just about gone.

There is no airline in the world that would pay for bmibaby. I even doubt if you could give it away.

There is nothing to sell. All the aircraft are leased and the office's are rented.

All the routes are available for any airline to operate so why buy?

The management have stuffed you all. Again.

My guess is FlyDubai for everyone.

[SR71]

LH control and own 49% of Germanwings, a LOCO...

[Ian Brooks]

From may consider selling to another airline just about gone in 2 posts
What are some of you guys on? Times are bad agreed but baby have quite a large portion of the UK lo cost market lets wait until all the details of the takeover of mainline BMI are sorted in January

Ian

[Topslide6]

Take a look through Hudson Bay's posting history. Many posts are about the bmi group, and almost all of them are infantile. The rest are all painting doomsday scenarios about many UK airlines or hyping up never to arrive 'big announcements'. In my opinion there speaks someone with some sort of weird twisted agenda.....

Ian, for what it's worth, the takeover is not just mainline. Lufthansa have purchased the whole bmi group.

Just to note also, and this is not to say it might not happen, but for something that was supposedly picked up off the Reuters news wire, I cannot find any other reference to this 'story' with newspapers who have been particularly keen to publish rumour and speculation around this deal for a long time. I have also looked at the Reuters wire for yesterday (which is when this story is dated) and there is no mention of it. The last bmi related story is dated November 6th and concerns MAN longhaul.

I may well be wrong, but make of it what you will.

[yeo valley]

i know this is a rumour forum. but i think comments about doom and gloom whatever it may be is unsettleing for the staff, and i think a lot of times puts ideas in minds in the wrong places. time will tell what will or not happen. but what ever happens that the staff will all come out of it good.

[Ian Brooks]

Yeo Valley

Yes I agree as I have said before not knowing what is happening is worse than
knowing either you are going or you are staying and is very unsettling to the whole family as you just cannot plan anything

My personal feeling is that Baby is too good to through away with the bath water,
if the loco airlines can survive they are the first that will gain when we come out of this recession as people will feel they need a break but not have the money to blow on a big holiday

Ian

PS Thanks Topslide that what I really meant
edited to add PS

[SR71]

There are all kinds of opponents who'd like to spread a few detrimental rumours about the demise of bmi business components.

It's a bit like short selling stock...

If you can get the rumour to acquire enough critical mass, it almost becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

LOCO's are, relatively, on the up in the present economic downturn because they're cheap.

I'm thinking of Churchill and the beaches....

:ok:

[Topslide6]

Amen to that!!

[Hudson Bay]

Topslide, Am I not allowed opinions?

I do not see life through rose coloured spectacles. I see what is happening and make educated decisions based on fact. Infantile remarks such as yours does nothing to help those people that are in their final 90 days of employment. You are nothing more than a cowboy that paints over cracks instead of utilisation of concrete substance.

If you wish to be an ostrich that is your choice, I am merely saying how it is.

The facts are Lufthansa are looking at selling off the company, that may or may not mean breaking up all three companies.

I sincerely hope they don't but you will be a very silly person if you are not dusting off you CV and looking for another job right now.

Topslide, by the tune of some of your posts you will be one of those bleaters that sound off when you are told that you are no longer required and your job is now obsolete. Get into the real world, smell the coffee and stop cuddling everyone and whispering everything will be OK.

There is absolutely no doubt the industry, Country and the Worlds financial systems are in free fall. Just look at the Dollar, the Euro, the Yen, Oil prices now $45 a barrel, share prices worldwide half the value from 6 months ago, unemployment, repossessions, negative inflation, I could go on for hours. We are in dire straights, SMB forced the sale of bmi and who could blame him. A Billion turnover and a return of beer tokens. Not worth the hassle.

It is a very worrying time for everyone and I wish everyone well. Closing your ears and eyes won't make the inevitable go away.

[Topslide6]

No one's saying you can't have an opinion.

That said, I stand by earlier post. All your posts are of a similar nature on similar subjects, such that it prompted me to ask the question once before this thread arrived at this point, just what is your agenda?

A very sad day. Another Airline just about gone.

You've made this statement based on a quote attributed to someone who is extremely unlikely to have said it in the first place, and one that has not been picked up by any other news outlet and is untraceable on the wire that it supposedly came from. For someone who states their occupation as 'airline pilot' you tend to post with both size 9's planted firmly in front of you at head height. If it weren't for the fact that it would be rightly deleted by the mods, i'd write just exactly what I think about posts like these.

I'm under no illusions about what the future may hold but I am capable of looking at it objectively.

Grow up.

[INKJET]

Of course your allowed your opinions, just the same as everyone else, but they are just that= your opinions, the problem is that you try to make it a seem as though what you say is fact and that you are close to management that are making plans as we speak, which i doubt.

Luffty will do what Luffty will do and yes baby (and the rest of bmi) might well be broken up, sold on, merged,expanded or even closed down, but right now there are boys and girls out there doing a good job for the group and trying their level best to keep the fires going in what are difficult times

Please continue to post your views and opinions, if your are in the know then please tell us more cos we get told Jack s**t, but if you do know then it needs to be more accurate than what you haven given us before

Cheers

[brian_dromey]

I think there is potential at baby, but they need to get their act seriously together. This summer has been an awful one for their customers on MAN-ORK and MAN-NOC with frequent delays, poor schedules and from what I have seen the rest of the MAN network was no better.

Baby need to get their act together because at the minute they are handing their market to EI on a plate. The number of frequent travellers I've sat next to on my flights who have given up on baby due to delays, which are made seem even longer by the already late-night departure times is worrying. The state of the aircraft is also a common complaint. Like them, I've given up on baby whenever possible, which is a shame because the airline is fundamentally a good one, I think a fleet of new, reliable A319/73G would do a lot for baby. But WW is a fantastic example of why FR and U2 swear by new fleets - they are less likely to break down.

Brian.

[Hudson Bay]

I stand by what I said. bmibaby has nothing to sell. Routes, Aircraft or property. As a going concern nobody will pay for an airline while numerous Airlines are going bust each week and can be picked up for nothing short of a Euro.

In my opinion the brand will be gone within months. If Lufthansa decide to give it away, that is for them to decide and you or I do not have any say in the matter. That day will be a sad day for bmibaby but hey, life goes on.

You obviously have a wish list and I understand why you do, but that is fairy tail stuff. Unfortunately this is the real world and real people that are hoping on hope their jobs are safe.

[FR-]

Nice to see someone in the real world.

[Hudson Bay]

Topslide,

Your eyes are really shut. Heres the link that you say does not exist.

Business Feed Article | Business | guardian.co.uk (http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/feedarticle/8044217)

[jerhippo]

WW may just merge into BD and become full service airline or it may continue as will BD as seperate companies, after all LH own LX which still runs seperately

[SR71]

I would have thought an European airline operating 737's with one of the lowest cost-bases in the region (as Hudson likes to point out, there is no expensive financing associated with ownership at bmibaby), owned by the richest airline in Europe, is a recipe for success?

It just depends on how you look at the cup eh, Hudson?

Less of the "The facts are...." tho' please...

You and I know we're both pi**ing in the wind as far as the crystal ball gazing goes...

You must be great company down the bar...

:rolleyes:

[Budar]

Hudson disgruntled ex bmi/baby pilot by any chance? You seem to take take great delight in the current circumstances, please remember the lads and girls have families and bills to pay.As for your so called "FACTS" nobody knows as yet and everything is pure speculation until it is announced it is not FACT!!

[Topslide6]

Congratulations numpty. You've succeeded in re-posting the link to the Guardian website. If you'd even bothered to read my posts, you'd have seen that i never questioned that particular article's existence. What i said, and for the third time, was that there is absolutely NO reference to this by ANY other media outlet, nor it is on the Reuters news wire, which the Guardian are claiming was the source.

[Looker]

As someone said at work yesterday'

There are only two certainties:
1. We'll be the last to know.
2. It won't be what we're expecting.

For my tuppence worth I might put a small side bet on SMB buying Baby and Regional back from Lufthansa. I just can't see him walking away from this business and retiring.

Only a few days to find out what the next episode in this soap opera holds for us. :uhoh:

Link to Reuters article here:
Flybe seeks new acquisitions despite downturn | Reuters (http://uk.reuters.com/article/businessNews/idUKTRE4AJ44U20081120)

I think regional would be a very good fit for Flybe," said Andrew Lobbenberg, an airlines analyst at Royal Bank of Scotland. That would be a better bet than tilting at bmibaby, its low-cost sister airline also expected to be put on the auction block.

[OliWW]

flybe wouldnt take baby, baby have a fleet of B733's flying all over europe, flybe only fly to spain for example from southampton and exeter, flybe wouldnt keep there B733's and would most likely replace them with E195, which have less seats than the B733 and with competition like ryanair at east mids for example, it would be a risk, flybe would be purchasing nothing if they left ema. They are better getting regional, because they can then base a E145 which they have some of at the moment at EMA and then they have also MAN base as well.

[sealink]

I really cant be bothered with people who write nothing but doom and gloom about the bmi takeover by lufthansa. As inkjet said there are boys and girls out there working hard for bmi and really dont need to be force fed someones elses OPINIONS ! The management are not going to tell staff the full story right now but their plans will be revealed in time. Until then its business as usual. If someone feels their job is on the line... then move on.... if they are happy working and enjoying the job until any changes are made.... then great.... enjoy the good times while they still exist. What will be will be. :)

[ATNotts]

OliWW

FlyBe are getting rid of E45s as fast as they can, replacing them with DH4s and E195s. The last they would want, from a fleet perspective, would be a load more to get shot of. From a commercial perspective, there may be some mileage in buying bmi Regional to gain the slots at MAN, and some business routes out of EMA that would probably make more economic sense flown by DH4s than thirsty old generation 737s that are also too big for the job.

As for buying Baby - why? Flybe's core business is now the thinner leisure routes, plus business routes domestically in UK and western Europe. Baby's is pretty well all bucket and spade, and weekend breaks - their frequency on what could called business routes (LIS, MAD, BCN) is not high enough to make them appealing to the business market.

Personally, I can't see why LH wouldn't want to look seriously at putting Baby in with Germanwings (under one management) but perhaps retaining the two companies as separate brands a'la TUI with it's various operations outside Germany.

As another poster said, all this is little more than rumour and speculation. When LH make their minds up the last to know will be the folks whose employment will be most directly effected - thats how it works these days.

[Cyrano]

The original German Reuters report is here. (http://de.reuters.com/article/companiesNews/idDEBEE4AI0JV20081119)

Bottom of fourth paragraph:
Allerdings erwägt Lufthansa einen Verkauf der bmi-Billigflugtochter bmi baby. "Das ist eine von mehrern Optionen. Es ist kein Kerngeschäft von Lufthansa", sagte Gemkow.

My translation: However LH is weighing a sale of the bmi LCC subsidiary bmibaby. "That's one of several options. It's not a Lufthansa core business," Gemkow said.

Further reference to this at the end of this English-language Reuters story too (http://uk.reuters.com/article/businessNews/idUKTRE4AJ44U20081120?pageNumber=2&virtualBrandChannel=0)

I have no axe to grind in all this and wish bmibaby all the best. But to suggest that Hr Gemkow's remarks are a made-up press report when they can be found on the Reuters website with a simple Google search seems to reflect more on the poster's Google skills than anything else. ;)

[airhumberside]

From a commercial perspective, there may be some mileage in buying bmi Regional to gain the slots at MAN, and some business routes out of EMA that would probably make more economic sense flown by DH4s than thirsty old generation 737s that are also too big for the job.
How would buying regional enable Flybe to start flying baby routes from EMA?

[Drink Up Thee Cider]

MAN awash with rumours that there's a full base staff meeting tomorrow.

Anyone else heard and know what its about? Fingers crossed and good luck for all involved

DUTC

[8028410q]

No base meeting at MAN.
bmi management are meeting with the unions tomorrow at Donington Hall. We'll find out tomorrow what it's all about.

8028410q

[Hudson Bay]

From somebody close to the top it looks like there is going to be a fleet reduction of 4 aircraft. ( I think that is the best of the possibilities)

Unions meet at 10am. (Pilot and CC Unions) Staff will be told at 1030am.

A very concerning time. Good luck to everybody.

[avrodamo]

Oh bugger....thats not good

[angelofthesky]

Well hud, this is not really news.

We already knew that some a/c were not going to be replaced until after winter period.

How is it youre so well informed when baby management have not been told anything yet? Do you work for baby?

The good luck message sounds hollow looking at your previous posts...

[K.Whyjelly]

From somebody close to the top it looks like there is going to be a fleet reduction of 4 aircraft. ( I think that is the best of the possibilities).
Is this the fleet reduction aka the 500's or is there more news to come out of the woodwork??

[flyer2308]

part of a memo from nigel turner this morning,
this memo covers other things such as pay e.t.c but here is the bmibaby relevant bit..........

bmibaby


With that background, on the recommendation of bmibaby’s executive team, we have decided that bmibaby’s capacity needs to be reduced next year, in order to remove development routes that currently have insufficient demand to justify their retention. We also need to reshape the bmibaby network to create more operational efficiency, which will also allow us to reduce management overhead in the Tiny Town head office.


We had already planned significant winter capacity reductions, but will now not replace three aircraft that have either come or are coming to the end of their leases and will be reducing the peak flying programme in 2009 to 17 aircraft. This will unfortunately have an inevitable impact on the number of operational jobs required and will require some reductions in the management overhead structure. Today we are therefore commencing a 30 day consultation with the relevant unions about the 70.1 full time equivalent positions at risk, which are concentrated in the Birmingham base and a few in East Midlands. We will as usual endeavour to minimise compulsory job losses but are not in a position where we can carry surplus jobs until the market recovers to such an extent that we feel able to grow the business again.

[Hudson Bay]

Well it was what we expected. NT states a 3 aircraft reduction, in actual fact it is 4. Bmibaby is crewed to 21 Aircraft.

Not sure how he arrives at 70 jobs at risk. I would of thought it would of been alot more.

It highlights how desperate the industry is in and further anouncements like this are inevitable not just at bmibaby but for all the Airlines.

[bazzab68]

Seems as though WW and going down to 5 a/c based at bhx in the summer season as apposed to this years 9. Numerous routes being cut inc Madrid, Rome, Bergamo, Bordeaux, Lisbon, Krakow and Prague. Makes grim reading as seems job cuts are going hand in hand... Not a good day for BHX with loses of routes but I can see FR taking over a lot of these and they are also on the KRK and PRG currently.

Am sure that when they announced intention of having 15 a/c at BHX a couple of years ago they wish they had reacted and not allowed FR in the door. Seems they are paying the price for slow reaction.

Best of luck to any crews who are in the unfortunate position of losing there jobs, been great working with ya all over the years..


Barry

[Mr. Blonde]

5 a/c for next summer is correct, but PRG has not been cut (still bookable in midsomer) I think you may have meant WAW which has been chopped. All other routes are correct.

We never had 9 a/c this year, only 8 (which was in fact 7 for most of the summer thanks to TOYL not arriving)

The 3 a/c are not -500's, it's whichever have leases due to expire??

In fact BVZE has just received a fresh coat (new billboard clrs).

No jobs will finish until end of March at the earliest and a lot can happen between now and then - good or bad.

Mr. B

[Vuelo]

What will happen at MAN this summer? More or less routes?

[brakedwell]

From BBC News website.

Airline cutting jobs and flights

An airline has announced it is suspending some of its services which could impact on the jobs of up to 70 members of staff.
Bmibaby is stopping its summer services to Rome, Milan, Lisbon, Madrid and Bordeaux from Birmingham International from 29 March to 24 October.
A spokesman said it was in response to a lack of demand with travellers cutting down on city-break trips.
The news affects 65 posts at Birmingham and five posts at East Midlands.

[TLBird]

Please get your facts right and do not try to install fear and panic to all at Baby.

BBC news release is also incorrect in there figures.!

There is the POSSIBILITY of compulsary job losses.
As of today the unions have entered into a minimum of 30 day consultation period, this may be extended.
during that period there will be options for volunteers to take various optons (sabaticals,voluntery redundancy etc these are just examples) this has not yet been finalised and is to be agreed over the next 30 days. This period can be extended if no agreement is reached.

Hopefully the headcount that needs to be reduced will be filled by such options.

If not then it may go to compulsory redundancies but the consultation is not complete so numbers ARE NOT FINAL !:ugh:

[brakedwell]

The "facts" all came from the BBC, however they have amended their report to read:

Five routes suspended by airline

Low-budget airline bmibaby is suspending five of its summer services from Birmingham International Aiport.
The routes affected are to Rome, Milan, Lisbon, Madrid and Bordeaux, with the flights to be put on hold between 29 March to 24 October.
A spokesman said the move was in response to a lack of demand, with travellers cutting down on city breaks.
The suspension of the flights could lead to 65 jobs losses in Birmingham, as well as five in the East Midlands.
A spokesman for the airline said it was starting a 30-day consultation period to minimise the impact of potential compulsory job losses.
'Weakening demand'
Customers already holding bookings for the suspended routes will be contacted by bmibaby and offered a full refund or a transfer to another destination.
A bmibaby spokesman said the routes were being suspended in response to a weakening of consumer demand.
"Travellers are now booking to fly to typical sun destinations for their annual holiday, rather than flying to the more impulsive short-break city destinations," he said.
Mediterranean routes from Birmingham were performing well, he added.

[tocamak]

From BBC website

Five routes suspended by airline
Low-budget airline Bmibaby is suspending five of its summer services from Birmingham International Aiport.
The routes affected are to Rome, Milan, Lisbon, Madrid and Bordeaux, with the flights to be put on hold between 29 March and 24 October.
A spokesman said the move was in response to a lack of demand, with travellers cutting down on city breaks.
The suspension of the flights could lead to 65 jobs losses in Birmingham, as well as five in the East Midlands.
A spokesman for the airline said it was starting a 30-day consultation period to minimise the impact of potential compulsory job losses.
'Weakening demand'
Customers already holding bookings for the suspended routes will be contacted by Bmibaby and offered a full refund or a transfer to another destination.
A Bmibaby spokesman said the routes were being suspended in response to a weakening of consumer demand.
"Travellers are now booking to fly to typical sun destinations for their annual holiday, rather than flying to the more impulsive short-break city destinations," he said.
Mediterranean routes from Birmingham were performing well, he added.


Any flight-deck jobs at risk?

[spannerhead]

An announcement like this from the bmi board (I agree, if it's going to happen then it must be announced) will no doubt have an impact on bookings for the other branches within the bmi group, mainline and regional. All of the issues within the group at the moment make the bmi brand name rather unattractive for the average punter to book their next flight with. Mainline, regional and baby, on paper may be different concerns, but to Joe Public bmi is bmi is bmi. It must be a very difficult consideration for the board to come to this decision based on Joes' perspective of the whole group.

[North Stand Tier3]

Unfortunately, that'll be a yes,along with cabin crew positions at BHX. 3 a/c going from the fleet before/around the start of summer season 09. Best of luck to all those affected

(Already a Baby thread with this news going btw)

Right, I'll get me coat.............

[EI-BUD]

This shines out at me as a 'big invitation' to Ryanair to enter the markets that baby are keeping on at BHX. I wouldnt be at all surprised if Birmingham to Belfast City pops up sooner rather than later.

And apart from some PR activity in Bournemouth and Southampton I havent seen FR take on Flybe at all.???? I would look at a Ryanair V Flybe scenario with interest. Anyway this is getting off the point.

Very surprised that EMA BFS is not being axed. Any detail about this available?

EI-BUD

[AltFlaps]

Gents,

The reason for yesterday's redundancy announcements (23 pilots) are:


BHX was used as the base for most city break route develop. These routes can take a 2 or 3 years to become reasonably profitable, and the company has decided that it cannot wait that long in the current climate.
3 (more like 2½) aircraft will be taken out of BHX (3 leases will not be renewed over next 3 months). This accounts for the 23 pilots (+43 cabin crew). In the past, the company would absorb these extra crews short term, and usually with natural wastage ..etc.. it was time to recruit again by the summer schedule. As we all know, there is no movement in the market at present, so the company decided it couldn't afford to carry the extra cost this time.It apears that bmibaby does have a future ... 2008/2009 was a good year (even with the fuel crisis), and 2010 is already looking good.
bmi like many other airlines is cocooning itself against excess costs while this storm continues to blow, with the intention of being more than just viable when the sun comes out again.

Any airline (including that one) who says they are making lots of money at present are clearly talking out their dump valve ... the next 2 years in this industry is about survival only ...

[Balair]

There are 3 daily EMA-BFS flights currently bookable for next Summer.

Apart from Prague and Warsaw the remainder of the EMA schedule appears to be un-affected by the latest announcements, but as we all know a lot could change over the coming months.

[Stan Dardrate]

As one of baby's first officers told yesterday that I might be losing my job just after Christmas, this is not a happy time for many of us.

I'm quite high up in seniority but apparently this does not count for much when they decide who goes and who stays.

Does anyone, who has been in this position before, know what sort of things they will take into account...could it be purely cost based ie the more you get paid the more likely you are to get the boot ?

Not a great subject for a first post...good luck to eveyone in this boat !:sad:

[NJTCF]

Cannot See Baby Dropping this Route its been One Of the Bread and Butter Routes Since the Days of British Midland. What You Might See At EMA Is them Cutting The Schedule Back On a Weekday From 3 Flights to 2 They Could Also Do This With The EDI + GLA Flights if Needs be As Long As there is A Schedule Allowing People To Do A Days Business in Scotland/Belfast Area The Paxs Will Be Happy. Not Everyone Wants 2 Fly Into BHD And This Has Been Shown in Pax Figures On the Route Since RYR Started BHD They Have Held Up Quite Well.

Stan The Agreement With LH Is Not Going to Be Officially Signed Until Early Next Year They Are Not Just Going to Close Baby Down Over Night. They Would Not Be Selling A Full Summer 2009 Schedule if This was Going to Happen. Think the Interesting Time for Baby Will Be Oct 2009 When The Summer Sched Comes to An End Then I Think We Will Know What Direction Baby is Going In. Wether its Sold Or Merged With German Wings. Who Knows??

[dashhead]

Stan,

What's the companies and your Balpa CCs stance on redundancy policy? Alot of airlines including the one I work for are firmly in favour of LIFO - indeed its written into my Terms and Conditions. Therefore, if 23 pilots are to go, its the bottom 23 on the seniority list that go irrespective of base.

Now, age discrimination legislation has muddied the waters on this but Balpa nationally view LIFO as lawful and the least risk option for an airline when making compulsory redundancies.

Otherwise, someone like you who is relatively senior looses their job while hypothetically, someone who joined last week, but at a different base keeps theirs.

DH

[K.Whyjelly]

I'm quite high up in seniority but apparently this does not count for much when they decide who goes and who stays.

Does anyone, who has been in this position before, know what sort of things they will take into account...could it be purely cost based ie the more you get paid the more likely you are to get the boot ?

Stan, as far as the pilots are concerned the last time bmi made people redundant (2001/2002) it was based on LIFO. Whether this precedent remains so with WW remains to be seen. As far as cabin crew are concerned (30 crew and 11.5 cabin managers at risk) I believe that the policy employed with the longhaul cabin crew at MAN whereby redundancies will be based on performance and not date of joining/length of service will be used with the BHX people. So, depending on your AMP record, assessements, good letter/bad letter etc this will help decide who stays and who goes.

[mathers_wales_uk]

Which aircraft are not having a lease renewal?

[moist]

Who cares, they're all rubbish.

[Vuelo]

I am afraid WW are getting what they deserve in my view.

Their product is low quality, the aircraft are tatty and old, the staff I have experienced onboard are less than professional and the service is always left wanting.

Smarten up your act WW and you might be a bit mroe successful!

[JennyB]

"(30 crew and 11.5 cabin managers at risk)"


A very painful judgement of Solomon coming up there from the looks of it

[excrab]

Vuelo

I sincerely hope you go to whatever your place of work is tomorrow and find a redundancy notice waiting for you. Hopefully you have a mortgage to pay and you can then share the situation that bmi baby staff find themselves in with a month to go before christmas. Hopefully your family won't suffer to much as a result. I hate to say this on a public forum but you are an A*RSE...

Stan and dashead - I believe that LIFO is also written into the BMI baby pilots agreement which was only signed by on behalf of the company about 6 months ago, presumably after it had been vetted by their legal department.

[jetstream7]

Vuelo

Having used bmiBaby a couple of times in the last few months I found...

Their product is high quality, the aircraft are smart and could have been new if I wasn't more in the know, the staff I have experienced onboard are professional and the service is what would be expected.

I'd summarise to say they did exactly what it said on the tin....

[spotwind]

Vuelo, You insensitive tit ! :mad:

Who is WW ?

I wish you were in my shoes yesterday.

I stood in a meeting and watched peoples faces go grey, cabin crew in tears, and people see there plans and aspirations come apart.

Lifo is a huge issue, its in the contracts. The company have sprung this one on everyone. Instead of an unlucky few knowing they have no job after xmas, the whole base is in left pondering about their jobs. No one knows who will be out of a job yet. They dont even know if they dare buy xmas presents as they might be the one to be out of work.

The irony is that the BHX base was baby's biggest. The crews worked their a*ses off this summer trying to make a go of this company. They dealt with delays, tech aircraft, demanding schedules, and pax with attitudes like yours! And for the most of it they are a professional and happy bunch that did their best.

At the moment everyone is worried sick,

Give them a break eh ? :*

[Skipness One Echo]

Who is WW?

WW is the IATA code for BMI Baby. Less ranting more google-ing please.

[GXEYE]

I have used bmi Baby on numerous occasions from CWL and always found the service outstanding ...good luck for the future to all those involved !!

[spotwind]

Mods, Who are these people ?

I know who ww is, I work for them !

I was asking vuelo who he thinks ww is. :ugh:

Is it a big faceless corporation, or a bunch of hard working, mortgage paying staff who face losing their jobs.

Thank christ I dont read this sh**t too often.

more reading ... less googling .



Excrab. Well said, I wish I had your vocabulary, Im just too annoyed !

[frfly]

This is such a shame, however not suprising. WW cannot beat FR on brand recognition abroad. Therefore WW relies on PAX originating from the UK. FR has the power of marketing europe wide - so if they start a route thats in competition with WW - like PRG/AGP/ALC/PMI for example, locals who want to get to the UK midlands will know more of FR due to their size compared to WW.

As I say, it is a shame, as WW offer a good service 9 times out of 10. However, recently looking at PRG from BHX, FR are offering £10 flights whereas WW offers £24.99 one way...I wonder who will win.

[Topslide6]

recently looking at PRG from BHX, FR are offering £10 flights whereas WW offers £24.99 one way...I wonder who will win.

Except of course Ryanair WILL, without question, be losing money at that price. As far as they're concerned it can only go on for so long. I have to say, the naiivety and ignorance of a lot of the non-bmi employees on this thread is truly staggering. Wake up people, Ryanair are NOT immune from what's going on, they just spin a very convincing line in bullsh*t.

AltFlaps post is by far the most level-headed and accurate.

[OliWW]

Yes but that is £10 + £16 booking fee, and £4 for checking in, and then you have to pay for baggage, as far as I am aware, baby only charge for checking in. Ryanair = £30, Bmibaby = £28

[TLBird]

Veulo

You truly are a VILE person to suggest that people deserve to loose there jobs.

As previously stated they are all hard working people with mortgages and loved ones to support.

As you slide down the banister of life may the splinters dig firmly and sharply in your ARSE!:E

[Tart With A Cart]

Could not have said it better myself!!! :D

What a :mad:!!!!!!!

[Mr. Blonde]

Otherwise, someone like you who is relatively senior looses their job while hypothetically, someone who joined last week, but at a different base keeps theirs.

Unfortunately that IS the case here, MAN & CWL staff are NOT at risk of redundancy regardless of their seniority to BHX/EMA crew.

Who decided this? Should there not have been a consultation period about this first?

We were told they are using the Teeside Closure as a precedent (where the Unions fought for it to only affect Teeside jobs) - I am sorry but that was different people, different circumstances and different economic situation!!

All that said IF (and it's a big if) it does come to compulsory redundancies then I hope that common sense prevails and it is done using LIFO as this is the only sensible and fair way to do it......

Mr B.

[INKJET]

A strange post if i might say so!

There are many cabin crew in baby who are bmi (diamond class) old school, and they bring a level of service to the baby product that other Loco's can only dream about. Yes the airframes are older than Ryanair/Easyjet but only a thrid of the age of Jet2 737 fleet, so what! looked after they can and do provide sterling service (another airline that ran far newer aircraft!!) last summer was probably the hardest they have worked since new, often doing 3 round trip meds a day with little down time, due mainly to the late delivery of new aircraft.

Most will start out summer 09 with new paint and all leather seats and probably not working quite so hard, this is a (sad) set back, driven in part by the timing of lease renewals during the transfer of ownership to Lufthansa not helped by the current econmic situation and of course the increased competion (mainly from Ryanair) at BHX and on its key routes.

If you are looking for the cheapest way to get to AGP travel ryanair, if however your are a family and want to sit together and don't want the crush on the airs stairs and go on holiday in more than what your stood up in then you'll find baby a better product and no dearer in many cases (20kg worth -v- Ryans 13?15? )

Finally if you are travelling with family who are RPM (reduced personal mobility) then we treat you as that, ie someone who has special needs and need special treatment, not like a pain in the arse that slows down turnaround time.

There is room for more than one airline on most of baby's routes, certainly in normal times, these aren't normal times

Hud/FR don't worry baby will be around for the Summer of 09, then its up to the new owners where they want to take it, lets wait for the winter 09/10 program ,you never know when you might want/or need a job with another airline!

Cheers

[SR71]

Unfortunately that IS the case here, MAN & CWL staff are NOT at risk of redundancy regardless of their seniority to BHX/EMA crew.

Surely this is what the consultation will seek to establish? Whatever the company are saying now, might not transpire to be the case...

Does anyone know what criteria they will be seeking to use as of now?

If not, refer the above.

It'd be ironic if they apply the LIFO principle, but merely at BHX. The problem is they don't want to use it on a wider basis (for flightdeck) because of the potential associated costs with re-basing....

Disclaw Publishing - Employment Law, unfair dismissal, redundancy pay (http://www.emplaw.co.uk/researchfree-redirector.aspx?StartPage=data%2f200809121.htm&PageTitle=Age+discrimination+%2F+2006+regulations+%2F+redund ancy)

I would not have thought that, bearing in mind the demographics of the workforce, LIFO in this case could be shown to be age discriminatory?

[sjm]

To my knowledge Teeside was closed and all crews offered relocation to any base of there choice, no redundancies.
A/c were kept and we continued to recruit to replace those who chose to leave.

[INKJET]

Another (more accurate?) version was that Teesside was closed to allow baby to move the aircraft to its then new super base......yep you guessed it BHX

[bmibabyfc]

baby charge for baggage as well.

[16024]

Inkjet:
Not sure if you didn't shoot yourself in the foot a bit with the first part of your post.
Are you saying that grumpy old Vuelo should only be grateful if a Midland veteran hobbles up the aisle towards him muttering about how it "wasn't like this in the 707 days"!
Otherwise, yes good points, well made. And it's hard to see how his comments are helpful.
What's your agenda, Vuelo?

[CHfour]

http://www.parissmith.co.uk/publications/employment-update-4-11-08.pdf.pdf

I'm no lawyer but there seems to be nothing in the above ruling to prevent
Baby from honouring their long standing comitment to use LIFO provided it's not the sole criterion for selection. There are many reasons, however, for them to hide behind "employment law" and dump LIFO as it will be easier/cheaper to single out the Birmingham staff. It would also clear the way for any selective redundancies in the future at other bases and in other parts of the group if they pulled it off.:sad:

[avrodamo]

I just hope for all our sakes that BALPA and the company can come to a decision soon that limits pilot numbers to be lost and that puts me and my family out of our misery sooner than later

[allanmack]

Having been through the redundancy mill a couple of times I know what people at Baby (and others) will be going through. My advice is to stay strong because those who do always come out on the right side and a bit stronger too. So, if you are affected keep your chin up.

From a PAX point of view I will be honest and must confess to having not had the greatest experience with Baby. I have used the services from GLA to both EMA and BHX a few times over the last year and to be honest I would place them third behind FR and EZY. I find the planes quite tatty, and although the CC are professional they also look quite tatty in their so called uniforms. All my fights with FR and EZY this year have been on time or early but I'm afraid Baby have been late ( 3 flights out of 6) albeit the max was 45mins. I do hope Baby continue to offer competition to the rest (prices are better than FlyBe) but some smartening up in a number of areas needs to happen.

[easyprison]

Lufty have no interest in it so they are merely shedding unprofitable routes until a buyer can be found.

easyJet for sure has no interest in buying baby.

[brian_dromey]

From a PAX point of view I will be honest and must confess to having not had the greatest experience with Baby. I have used the services from GLA to both EMA and BHX a few times over the last year and to be honest I would place them third behind FR and EZY. I find the planes quite tatty, and although the CC are professional they also look quite tatty in their so called uniforms. All my fights with FR and EZY this year have been on time or early but I'm afraid Baby have been late ( 3 flights out of 6) albeit the max was 45mins.

As a regular WW user my experiences have been very similar, but the delays have been worse. 1 hour seems to be a standard delay with baby but it has been up to 4 on occasion. I have noticed that they are not very good a turning the aircraft quickly, even when the aircraft arrives early we still depart 10-20 minutes late. No wonder FR and U2 are picking off the best of Baby's routes.

That said, I would not like to see baby go, with a bit of care, attention to detail and German efficiency I think they could go well.

Brian.

[Copenhagen]

Lets stick to facts and not opinions

FLIGHTONTIME.info - Low Cost Airline Delays & Punctuality in the UK (http://www.flightontime.info/loco/loco.html)

Tells it all. Flybe is more punctual than Baby, but baby is more punctual than EasyJet.

Birmingham is WW's least punctual hub..

FLIGHTONTIME.info - bmi baby Flight Delays & Punctuality in the UK (http://www.flightontime.info/loco/airlines/ww08.html)

[brian_dromey]

copenhagen, my post was not an opinion. It is based on 19 WW flights, ORK-MAN and vv in 2008 and as many more in the 12 months prior to that. Teh delays on this route are continous and happen to me almost every time I fly, ranging from the usual 20mins right the way up to very occasional 4 hour delays. This experience is common and the last two frequent travellers I have spoken to have also abandoned WW where-ever possible because it is unreliable.

Perhaps the ORK-MAN route is a single exception, but from what I have seen of the departure boards at MAN T3, I dont think it is. Deny it all you like but the reality from WW passengers is that the other option on the route will get their passengers where they want to be, when they want to be there and in far nicer surroundings.

Those are the facts, as I see them. My opinion, though is that WW could be a good little airline with a bit of spit and polish, preferibly of the German type.

Brian.

[fade to grey]

I am sorry to hear this,
I was with bmir when the 146 fleet was finished in 2002 and alot of me pilot mates moved to baby at BHX/EMA, I hope some good will come of this eventually.

A dark dark year for aviation.

[Mr Angry from Purley]

A lot of crews and airlines will be watching this. I heard that Balpa support LIFO (not sure if by total number or by base though) but it will only be tested in law when an airline applies it. A test case could be on it's way.
:\

[SR71]

I'm with CHFour.

There isn't anything to suggest LIFO as sole criteria will fail, just a note to proceed with caution where the demographics of the workforce might open you up to a charge of age discrimination.

If they choose not to use LIFO uniquely, how will they skew the matrix of criteria to affect only BHX crews, especially when all bmibaby pilots fly a common type, have no base allocated in their contract (except, as I understand, on a seniority list that the company want to ignore!) and might be willing to relocate at nil cost to the company?

Again, if it gets to the courts, isn't this a hugely significant (for pilots who want to believe in LIFO) case to be won?

[nitefiter]

Comparing what happened in MME to what is happening in BHX is not reasonable.MME was a base closure with no net reduction in aircraft or crew numbers.Flightdeck crews were offered a new base or could take redundancy,some chose to move and some took the package. I believe the company waived the outstanding training bonds for pilots not wishing to relocate,a relocation package was also available.
IMHO LIFO is the only way to go here and BALPA should fight for this.It would have a minimal impact on other bases as most (not all) of the less senior pilots are at BHX anyway.
I truly feel for my colleagues at BHX at this time,We could be next. Baby has its faults but one thing it does have is, a hard working dedicated staff base.Give us the equipment and well do the job.

[Topslide6]

Again, if it gets to the courts, isn't this a hugely significant (for pilots who want to believe in LIFO) case to be won?

Be under no illusions, what happens here will have serious consequences for the future of the whole of the UK airline industry. Personally, however, I have faith in the both the management and the BALPA CC/negotiating team to come up with an acceptable solution. Call me old fashioned, but i'm not sure that discussing an internal company issue of this magnitude on what is effectively a 'spotters' forum is particularly appropriate.


Pizza Express,

Just another sad individual with an agenda. It's truly amazing how many of the posters to this thread have less than 30 posts to their credit. Your grand total? 2. Show just one ounce of evidence to back up your opinions and untruths and people might listen to you. On the other hand, given that each of the individual points you have made is incorrect in it's entirety, that will be very hard to do, however.

[moist]

Pizza Express,

With just 2 posts to your name, it's blatant - you have created your id here in order to post utter rubbish.
You - imho are the same vile idiot as Vuelo, that real popular to$$er above.
You may have more aliases then just the 2, but you do stick out!

:mad:

[NJTCF]

Pizza Express.

You Talk Utter B:mad: SMB Is NOT Using Baby As A Tax Haven Never Has And Never Will SMB Is A Very Honest Business Man. Thats Why He Built The Airline Up From the Days of Derby Airways to the Current BMI If He Was Doing Anything Wrong Im Sure He Would Have Been Found Out By Now Hes A Very Wealthy and Honest Guy and Post Like Yours Against His Name Should Be Stopped.

[OliWW]

:ouch: This whole topic is out of hands, it started from 3 routes being lost and 3 aircraft leaving as their lease is over. At the current time, who knows what might happen.

Furthermore to NJTCF is the fact that bmi has always been part of the Midlands, since it began 1949 as Derby Aviation. And I can almost be certain, that it will always be the case of bmi and bmibaby for as long as they are here, stay in the Midlands

[ATNotts]

OliWW:

Your first point - spot on!

Your second less so. Woolworths were part of the UK retail scene for 99 years - but that is no guarantee they will make it to 100. A tough economic environment has seen to that; and it will probably see to the prospects for more airlines yet.

Nobody in their right mind would wish redundancy on anyone who is working hard to feed their families and keep a roof over their heads - but for the next year or two things are going to be tough for everyone - to state the blindingly obvious - and creditors are less patient than they might have been 18 months ago.

Best of luck to all.

[Big X]

Nitefighter, sorry but the company did not waive the training bonds for the Teesside crews. Those on the agreement had to pay back the outstanding amount, only the guys who transfered from regional and were on an old fashioned bond had it waived.

There is a line in the small print of the agreement that if I remember rightly, states that on termination of employment any outstanding money has to be repayed.

Good luck to all my former collegues, Baby was a good company and it is a shame it has come to this.

[befree]

A smaller Baby may mange quite will under new owners in long run. BHX will not wish Ryanair to be so big that they can get blackmailed. I am sure that a good rate could be agreed to keep baby viable. Its new owners also have quite a few planes that could get passed down to the new bady in the family.

Ryanair is likley to be paying less per pax at BHX and is killing the profits of other airlines at the airport. They may part company again.

[speedtouch]

Someone just sent me this link:

PRESS DIGEST - British Sunday business press - Nov 30 - Forbes.com (http://www.forbes.com/afxnewslimited/feeds/afx/2008/11/30/afx5756602.html)

Basically intimates that Flybe is sniffing around Baby as well as Regional. Whether this would be a good thing for the staff I am not convinced; however, if it ever happened it may sure up mid/long term job security as Flybe would be almost water-tight in the UK domestic market.

I am only teeing it up - now you can all rip it apart.
Enjoy!

[RJ100]

It now appears that Flybe are in talks with LH to acquire bmibaby and regional.News articles say that flybe are carrying out "due diligence". LH quoted as saying baby and regional "were not not core to it's strategy"
Financial section of Mail on Sunday is one of the papers carrying the article.

RJ.

[Little Blue]

Yeah, of course they are !!

[INKJET]

Regional would fit well within Flybe and bmibaby could become flybaby doing the fun & sun routes, keeping the two bits seperate would avoid many of the seniority issues, if nothing else it would end the endless speculation will go on in 2009 until such stage as Lufthansa either commit to a new fleet or start expanding the airline. In all credit to Flybe they have done a half descent job with BAcon

[nitefiter]

Big X,
thanks for clearing that point up,i knew it definately was the case for some.

[interested penguin]

We have used ww several times from CWL, as has been mentioned previously they do what they say on the tin. We have only praise for the crews we have flown with. As for redundancy issues I have been down that route and have seen many good people break up after it.

Vuelo does seem to be a smug uncaring person, I completely agree with excrabs first paragraph.

[Ihavewings]

The FlyBE/Baby/Regional rumour has been going around long before Lufty's recent acquisition. Although FlyBE have denied interest in either operation in the past it will be interesting to see if/how they will respond to the artilce on forbes.com (link above). There may be dark months ahead but there could be some interesting turns of events too. Hopefully alot of people can benefit.

[Daza]

Flybaby and Babybe have a certain ring to them!!
Daza

[keepitlit]

Market News

More Business & Investing News... LONDON (Reuters) - Airline Flybe is in talks to buy British Midland's subsidiary operations bmi regional and bmi baby, the Mail on Sunday reported.

The two airlines are not core to the strategy of British Midland's new owner, Lufthansa, it said.

Lufthansa took over British Midland last month, but the German airline has indicated it is more interested in bmi's long-haul routes and valuable Heathrow slots than in the two subsidiaries.

Bmi regional is UK-focussed, while bmi baby is a low-cost airline that flies to a number of European destinations.

Privately-owned Flybe is in due diligence for the two businesses, which together make up about 40 percent of British Midland's turnover, the newspaper reported.

Analysts have previously touted Flybe as a potential buyer of bmi regional, saying it would fit in well with Flybe's strategy of trying to consolidate the UK regional market.

(Reporting by Rosalba O'Brien; Editing by Andrew Macdonald)

regards

Keepitlit

[Drink Up Thee Cider]

Someone just sent me this link:

PRESS DIGEST - British Sunday business press - Nov 30 - Forbes.com (http://www.forbes.com/afxnewslimited/feeds/afx/2008/11/30/afx5756602.html)

Basically intimates that Flybe is sniffing around Baby as well as Regional. Whether this would be a good thing for the staff I am not convinced; however, if it ever happened it may sure up mid/long term job security as Flybe would be almost water-tight in the UK domestic market.


Looks like sloppy journalism to me. Where's the 'No comment' or 'yes, we are interested' quote from Flybe? Doesn't even look like the Mail on Sunday 'news'paper even asked Flybe. :=

[Facelookbovvered]

I read the article in the link, when i got to the £150m bit i fell off my chair laughing, who in their right mind would pay £150m for any of bmi/regional/baby other than the slots of LHR?

Prior to the slots being included in the asset value the group was worth £20m...........

Have used regional a number of times, good service but not cheap, mainline, depends on which day of the week it is as to the service level, used baby from Man down to the med last summer and it was ok, but the aircraft were tatty for their age.

The only way flybe will be involved is if its part of a much bigger deal with BA/Luffty who are the proud parents of Flybe/bmi offspring.

Wishing all the staff well for Xmas and the new year

[Topslide6]

Couple of things;

1) This was in the Mail, which is not exactly renowned for it's accuracy when reporting aviation related matters.

2) How can Flybe be in talks with Lufthansa over an airline which it will not actually own until mid January '09 at the earliest?

Regional I can see, Baby I can't.

I read the article in the link, when i got to the £150m bit i fell off my chair laughing, who in their right mind would pay £150m for any of bmi/regional/baby other than the slots of LHR?

Perhaps because it's a business with over a billion pound trunover?

[Facelookbovvered]

Turnover=vanity........profit =sanity

Luffty board room on hearing that they have just paid 320m for 50%+1 share in black hole.........." De bloody Tommy hav put wunover us again" who signed Das bloody deal?...take em out side fur de firing squad!!


And what about de bmi tommy management?

Tell dem ther jobs are safe, then get das next lufftwaffa shuttle to Lodnod, sign the paper and tell em we lied and shoot dem as well!

Bloody tommies:eek:

[mateyboy]

Hi all!!

Regarding redundancies I would be concerned if LIFO is not enforced as dspite what the EU law stipulates about age discrimination and the younger players being protected, in bmibaby this would definately not be the case. There are in fact many older people joining recently from other airlines, than pilots already in bmibaby, and it seems that all the pilots want LIFO to be the method of redundancy if necessary! The age factor is completely irrelevant to LIFO!

If not LIFO then what method would be used! Remembering now that preventing discrimination is key! I read somewhere that attendance performance may form part of the criteria in deciding who goes! This surely would not be allowed to happen with flightcrew as it would set a dangerous precedent! Pilots who are sick would struggle into work anyway, fearing that when it comes to "redundancy day", they might/would be the first to go due to a blemish on the record! Potentially, therefore, with the precedent set for all airlines, it's logical to say that somewhere some day, there will be 2 very sick pilots in the same flightdeck! This cannot be allowed to happen, so where next! Performance? How can you measure performance? LPC's, Linechecks? I can't see training records being pulled to assisst the chopping process, that would be ludicrous! And again you'd be discriminating in both the above mentioned! 1) against people who were unwell 2) against people of less experience/natural ability!

I am also concerned about how people will be selected! My biggest worries are for those who are not financially indebted to the company. i.e no training bond! Will the management decide to axe those with no bond, or bond paid, and keep those on who are still paying their money back! Thats cynical I know, and I can hardly see the company attempting that, never mind getting away with it!

I think LIFO is the only way, but if there are other alternatives, to prevent or minimise redundancies, such as pay freeze, etc, I would vote for that!

Does anyone know when the next batch of aircraft leases are due to expire, and if so when and how many? It makes me wonder if when NT said that this wouldn't be the last of the announcements, whether, in 4-6 months time when another 3-4 aircraft leases expire, whether the focus of redundancies will be at Manchester and Cardiff next tim afround!!!

Thanks

[Hudson Bay]

LIFO. What a joke.

Why should I be made redundant because I started 8 months ago? Why shouldn't the old fossil that started 15 years ago be made redundant? Ex mainline and training Captains that are costing the company a fortune should be the first. Most of them have disciplinary records of some sort and are the first to go sick because they are rostered to work a weekend. The Law is the law, LIFO is history because it is wrong. I am more company minded and better at the job than those at the top of the seniority list because I am keen to do the job.

The company is correct, get rid of those that don't toe the company line, we all know the ones, the girls that are always sick the skippers that fly at mach .82 everywhere and make up the rules as they go along. The ones that are constantly late and the FO's that don't wear their uniform because they are embarrassed they are still an FO. Get rid of those that never pick up the phone when on standby, those that are awkward and refuse discretion and can't give a reason why.

LIFO is wrong and would never stand up in court. The correct way is via the Matrix. If nothing else it will get rid of alot of dead wood that has been dorment for years.

Yes the truth hurts.

[Merchant Banker]

Everyone is entitled to their point of view and that is fair enough! However I wonder if you would feel the same having being in the company for more than a measly 8 months? I would be very distressed at being told that I was to be made redundant when there are +60 pilots below me on the seniority list!

Dont forget that not all of us bend the rules and turn up late. You may find that the majority are company minded and are professional operators. Whilst not a baby pilot, I do work for the group and would hope that my seniority would count when the axe is wielded.

[cloudbase101]

The bmi regional MD has just denied, via e-mail to all employees, that FlyBe are looking at the books. He states it is purely press speculation.

It must be true then !

:ugh:

[mateyboy]

Hudson Bay, you are in a minority I believe! LIFO is definately the fairest way of all! And when you said, "The company is correct, get rid of those that don't toe the company line........", I didn't realise that that was the company policy.......!! Do you know something we don't?:rolleyes: As merchant banker has stated, the vast majority aren't 0.82ers, don't have any disciplinaries against our names, and are all striving for the interest of the company! With your Stalin like methods, you'd perhaps get 5 maybe 10 pilots maximum, to qualify under your criteria, and then what? What criteria would you adopt then? There is something to be said for loyalty, and time served! How long have you been at baby? You don't sound like you're that new myself, I was wondering if you felt bad taking 5% of salary after 3 years service!:{ After all why should you get that, and not the 8 monther? I'm very company minded, and reliable! But I would be horrified if a Captain who's been flying for baby for 6 years, should be made redundant before a newby who's been with the company 3 months! After all, the new guy hasn't been around long enough to prove his "fossil" like tendencies, or very low immune system! :}

[CHfour]

Mateyboy, well said. I totally agree with your sentiments.

Hudson Bay, I thought some of your previous posts made some sense but that last one was ludicrous. There was only one point on which we agree and that's the one about the truth hurting. It will do for you as LIFO was in your terms of employment when you joined baby 5 minutes ago as it has always been. And it will stand up in court as it's in our contract and the only fair way to handle this unfortunate event. May I suggest you wash any future dirty laundry on the BALPA forum rather than here? Assuming you are a member?

[Dog E. Stile]

I would find some sympathy with mateyboy's sentiments if he didn't end everything with an exclamation mark! Like this! Spelling and grammar nazi I know but it just makes me grind my teeth! See!

Almost as bad as the habit of a certain chief pilot's overuse of the question mark? There must be something wrong with the crew water?

:ugh:

[CHfour]

Dog E, You've hit the nail on the head!
Maybe we should ditch LIFO in favour of a letter from each of us to the management stating why we should be kept on? We could all start with 100 points and one would be deducted for each grammatical error? I'd better update that CV!

[16024]

Dubious.

(Plus an extra 50 points for using all seven letters in one go?)

[mateyboy]

Dog E "style"

I apologize emphatically for my over use of the exclamtion mark. We can't all be as smart and articulate as you. I will be looking out for the really grouchy old skipper, with no teeth. See. Overcome my !!! problem. like this. Is that what you do every night (question mark) Come on pprune and check everyone is spelling correctly, and not abusing speech marks.

I don't want your sympathy, but you do have mine. Pathetic man! (used in context)

[mateyboy]

Nice First Post doggy!!!!!!!!!!!