Bmibaby

[INKJET]

I only questioned your agenda because of your previous posts on bmi threads which tend to be negative?

I have just booked flights through the website via a WiFi from my laptop at home and i am at the end of our local broadband loop and it was fine with just a small delay of a couple of sec's on the intial page load up, not as quick as say the google home page which is nano sec's but as quick as most servers i have used to day.

I agree the old site was quicker and my new laptop is a 64bit system which i think is quicker on the more detailed sites, so i don't know why they changed it other than to freshen things up?

clearly you are not alone in having problems going by the posts on here, however i have been told by someone on last weeks SDE course that bookings are up 30% year on year so who knows

[mathers_wales_uk]

Could the new booking system have been due to cost cutting measures that are urgently required?

[Businesstraveller]

Any good reason for the route maps at the rear of the current Baby inflight magazine not showing BHX-EDI as a route? Made me wonder if I was on hush-hush route!

[OltonPete]

Businesstraveller

No wonder this is rumoured to be the next route to go but it is still on
sale to at least June.

Cancelling EDI would bring the base down to the expected three units
with little fuss (other than to those who have booked already).

However EDI could operate until June with three based and some time changes but thereafter if would probably require route cuts. Barcelona does end on 7/6/2010 but that alone would not accommodate a double daily EDI. If it does go I would like to think they could hand it over to
BMIR.

Whether this means EDI has survived the cut I don't know.

Pete

[Nakata77]

BMIBABY hints at two aircraft for BOH
New BmiBaby service to fly between Bournemouth and Jersey
By Tim Saunders » 23rd Feb 2010
More than 24,000 passengers are forecast to use BmiBaby’s new Bournemouth to Jersey service from Bournemouth Airport.

The low cost carrier will start flying a Boeing 737-300 three times a week from the airport on Monday, March 29 for six months.

If it realises its projections, the airline will fly from Bournemouth throughout the year and could add new destinations.

Bournemouth represents the operator’s only expansion this year outside its four other bases at East Midlands, Cardiff, Manchester and Birmingham.

Julian Carr, commercial director at BmiBaby, said: “Jersey has worked at other bases – it allows us to do the route without basing an aircraft here. The plane will fly from East Midlands to Jersey, from Jersey to Bournemouth, from Bournemouth to Jersey and from Jersey back to East Midlands.

“This offers opportunities for ongoing growth – it’s a foot in the door – a huge opportunity to take traffic away from Southampton.

“We will know how well it will go a month after it starts.”

In coming to Bournemouth, the operator has drawn on its experience at other regional hubs such as Cardiff, which is a similar size to Bournemouth Airport. There, it has two aircraft, which fly 13 routes. “There’s a possibility for two aircraft at Bournemouth in the future, subject to success,” Mr Carr said, adding that each plane creates about 35 jobs.

Recession has seen “a lot of business travellers now flying economy class and holidaymakers only taking a main holiday instead of two or three”.

“As a low cost airline this works in our favour,” Mr Carr said. “Instead of paying premium prices, they are flying with low cost carriers.”

BmiBaby operates 14 planes, employs 550 staff, and is part of BMI, a trading name of British Midland Airways, who are owned by Lufthansa.

[Hudson Bay]

So now we have a website that is complete rubbish and a so called commercial manager called Mr Carr that doesn't have a clue about route expansion. Bournemouth as an airport has no links and not much passenger catchement. It will never compete with Southampton and routes out of Bournemouth will not work sufficiently well to be viable in the long term.

As a matter of interest what is Mr Carrs background?

[Going loco]

Mr Carr was Philip Meeson's right hand man on the commcerial side for the launch and initial growth phase of Jet2.
How does your CV read in terms of route development?

[OltonPete]

I am not sure he will be too impressed with the accuracy of the report or maybe he will over-egging Cardiff.

quote

"hubs such as Cardiff, which is a similar size to Bournemouth Airport. There, it has two aircraft, which fly 13 routes"

End of quote

Booking engine shows: -

BFS - ending
ALC
EDI
FAO
GVA - seasonal
JER
MAH
AGP
MJV
PMI

DUB - six nations

Not even close to 13 but the "13 routes" bit seems to have been added and not a direct quote from Mr Carr, perhaps just a bit of poetic licence from the Journo?

Why would they think they can compete with Ryanair at BOH and not at BHX where FR have hardly been aggressive recently?

Pete

[INKJET]

I think if baby have a good Summer at BOH on the Jersey route you will see them operate some winter flights as well, probably W pattern GVA & PRG with a view to a bigger Summer program next year, shortage of aircraft will not be a problem next year...............

[aidoair]

shortage of aircraft will not be a problem next year...............

I hope your hinting at something positive we don't know about...

[speedy688]

Inkjet is right, shortage of aircraft won't be a problem next year. The problem will be shortage of crew. More resignations (another yesterday) to follow and PD receiving plenty of reference requests. Attrition this year expected to be very high (according to pilot management).

[Facelookbovvered]

No doubt part of a cunning plan to replace full time pilots with cadets and contract only pilots....................

[Flightrider]

....or more like a reflection of the fact that anyone who has other credible job offers is taking them. It can be no fun sitting in an airline whose future is so openly speculated about and where there can be little feeling of job security given the death by a thousand cuts which is taking place.

[INKJET]

I can't see BALPA going with that, they can't even get cabin crew to turn up with out pay!!

[mathers_wales_uk]

I would personally take what is being said with a pinch of salt. Look at Cardiff promised growth and all aircraft went to other bases. Now reduction to two aircraft.

You will be suprised how many pf the routes that are operated out of the other bases would also work out of CWL if they actually gave them a chance.

[ryanair1]

yes i would be surprised

[Firestorm]

Inkjet: you can't see BALPA going with that? Judging by BMI Baby's record I can't seeing them take any notice of what anyone thinks, least of all BALPA!

If Mr Carr was doing so well at Jet Two who were doing OK why did he leave for the lame duck that is one step away from rigor mortis that is BMI Baby?

[Balair]

In an interview with the Leicester Mercury, featured in yesterday's business section, Crawford Rix indicates the focus in 2011 will be on growth, stating "we will be looking to take on a few more aircraft at East Midlands and other airports" and he also suggests the airline is preparing to announce a series of new routes from EMA.
He goes on to mention the "positive result" of the booking tie-up with Germanwings, hinting "that it could mean an expansion of services in Germany"

The comments suggest the possibility of a closer tie-up with Germanwings with the German destinations resulting from the introduction of a Cologne service from EMA similar to that from MAN.

It all sounds very positive, but time will tell what, if any of the above materialises.

[toledoashley]

This sounds quite in line with the bmi modal of growth to *A in europe (Berlin, Vienna etc).

I think there could be an entry to the south of England, BOH is an option (as discussed). Maybe LTN could be an option with EZY retreating? or is this too close to 'megabase' EMA?

[Nakata77]

Would make sense to add a couple a/c at BOH as thick routes from there are not operated by anyone yet: AMS, CDG, NCE, FCO, SZG, PRG, WAW, FRA, CGN, BER, GLA, EDI, BFS - more than enough to keep 2 jets occupied.

A merger with Germanwings would be great and the old 737's can then be replaced with A319's. Germany to Bournemouth is a big potential market especially seasonally as over 100,000 of them come to BOH to learn English at the local language schools. Only these are not 'students', they are from wealthy families being sent to study overseas with money to burn and regular flights to make.

[fanrailuk]

Seems as though WW aren't as invincible at EMA as first thought...

> BIA (due to begin 30 May) cancelled - no longer for sale

...and with some more movement of routes, does that now equate to 7 a/c needed?

PP

[mathers_wales_uk]

It's the same old thing fanrail same happened with Grenoble, Almeria etc and not just from EMA.

Some positive phrases used recently about expansion and maybe when all the expensive leases have expired it may pave way for more aircraft than before the cull this year and the last.

With a bit of luck we will see that 3rd aircraft back at CWL and maybe even more beyond that if LH sees common sence except for just putting aircraft into a base just to be the largets carrier and loose money.

[OltonPete]

The long-rumoured demise of BHX-EDI seems to have happened as the
last day it is bookable is Friday 26 March 2010.

No sign of BMIR taking it over unless it has not been co-ordinated

If BMIR are not going to operate the route then 17 days notice is pretty poor for something that has been rumoured for a while and even baby themselves confirmed they will only have 14 aircraft yet until today 15 were scheduled.

With such a late cancellation I assume they will be hoping that the pax would transfer to EMA rather than re-book with flybe?

flybe had already increased BHX-EDI for summer 2010 with 8 weekday flights except for Thursday with 9.

The decision to cancel the route cannot be questioned as pax have fell away dramatically although nowhere near as bad as EMA-BFS. From the giddy heights of four/five a day (very briefly) to nil but those were in the
days when flybe had just taken BA Connect and were all over the place.



Pete

[WELSHGUY40]

cwl will be next for the chop

[Nakata77]

If CWL-EDI is ending - with little or no competition on the route i guess this means its almost impossible for new flights from EDI to other destinations. I'm thinking in particular of BOH.

[fanrailuk]

''...little or no competition on the route...''

flybe - up to 3 times daily (weekdays) & twice on Sundays! :ugh:

PP

[fanrailuk]

Now on sale...

Advert Link Removed

A little interest by LH, and it seems as though Munich has been added to EMA & CWL with Cologne/Bonn added to BHX & EMA for winter!

[Keith_P]

As SLF using BHX-EDI regularly for the last 6 years, I only just found out baby are dropping the route at the end of the month when the website was offering no options for April. Looks like I will be flying BE regularly for the foreseeable future rather than having an option :(

[Random Flyer]

I'm starting to think a merger between bmi baby and Germanwings is a strong possibility. Perhaps merging under a new brand. Thoughts?

[Daza]

What a pity BHX-CGN flight has been timed so poorly. The flight leaves BHX at 1940 on weekdays so is not good for business or pleasure. I also note that the EMA-CGN flight also 6x weekly is timed a little better but again with a similar evening slot. Maybe BMIBaby will wait and see the BHX flight fail due to timings and then transfer any passengers over to EMA? I dont understand why BMIBaby dont move their entire operation to EMA?
Daza:ugh:

[Charlie Roy]

What a pity BHX-CGN flight has been timed so poorly.
It might be handy for business travellers willing to fly in the night before. Most German employees start work already at 8am... What might be a better schedule?

[jpthomas72]

What a pity BHX-CGN flight has been timed so poorly. Come-on ! It's very good esp for weekend trips, you don't have to take Friday off work. Take the daily LH BHX-FRA 18:35 which is packed-full esp Fridays. Also, the pretty popular 4U flight back then was also in the evening. And we in Cologne don't stop partying at midnight :) The S-Bahn from CGN runs until 1am and needs 15min right into the heart of Cologne, walk 300m to the old town pubs. CGN also has a cluster of hotels, 7min by S-Bahn. CGN-BHX has failed at least 4x before (BA, Duo, 4U, HLX), but you should not condemn this just for the flying times. Some of this actually is due to the UK being in a different time-zone than the continent, so Friday evening flights will always be late. Take e.g. FR's SXF-EMA, arriving 22:00 into SXF (Berlin is really odd, no partying _before_ 1am), and still really popular. There's always LH and BE if you are so so picky when you fly. Oh, and yes, Germans start working at 8am, but this WW flight is not for business people primarily (they would go to DUS). BTW, I think the flight number 15xx hints that the BHX flight will be WW, while EMA with 56xx could be 4U ? Yes, and I await the answer from FR.

[Daza]

BHX-CGN hasn't worked after so many attempts because the aircraft type each time was wrong. Low fares flights have too much capacity for 6 flights per week. This route would suit CRJs or even Flybe DH4s (they maybe too large).:ugh:

As for the comment about arriving in Cologne late at night. For leisure travelers its a wasted first night in a hotel for a two or three night break. You get out the airport straight to bed! For businessmen better flight times ex BHX would be to overnight the aircraft in CGN and return to BHX early in the morning capturing both early morning meetings in Cologne area and early morning business in Birmingham. Ideally this route would suit two departures morning and evening with small regional jets.

These flight times coupled with competition from up the M42 with timing better suited for leisure passengers will ensure this service wont work ex BHX, if it even gets off the ground. Mark my words!
Daza:ugh:

[Charlie Roy]

As for the comment about arriving in Cologne late at night. For leisure travelers its a wasted first night in a hotel for a two or three night break. You get out the airport straight to bed!

Personally, as a leisure passenger, I am often on the look out for such schedules because I do not wish to take the day off work the day that I'm travelling.

[merchant sailors]

seems an interesting choice BHX - CGN up against their own LH operations to DUS and I seem to recall flybe on BHX - DUS
Why did they not think about a Cardiff - CGN route where there is no competition. surely a better chance of a longer term viability. would be great to see a merger with Germanwings, but who would pull the strings?

[Mr A Tis]

To me, it doesn't make sense flooding the CGN market which as you have said is up against their own LH DUS flights, not to mention 4Us flights to CGN from MAN.
I've avoided booking WW flts from MAN as routes seem to get cancelled with little notice, so I have no confidence that flights will be operated.
Another annoyance is wanting to book MAN-BCN via CGN with 4U. The Germanwings web site automatically re-directs you to BMI Baby pages - who don't operate the route anymore.
Its pretty clear that 4U + WW haven't got their act together (yet), IMHO.

[Balair]

Mr A Tis,

I echo your thoughts on the number of seats being introduced to CGN, especially the decision to fly from both EMA and BHX at times which seem to preclude any (or few) possibility of onward connecting flights with Germanwings.

Surely this is a missed opportunity for both WW and 4U, as the point-to-point traffic from the Midlands to Cologne cannot justify the number of flights being offered?

[bmibaby319]

Hello, Its been some time sinc I have posted here, And I would just like to say about baby at CWL, They have now Dropped there BFS route and should also think about dropping Glasgow and Edinbrugh when I flew CWL-EDI in Febury 2009 It was full, But now looking at the figures the numbers on the route have dropped rapidly, I think bmibaby could do a lot more for CWL if they Dropped these two routes and started to explore more into Europe they could probaly turn back into a profitbale company.

Hope the RBS Six Nations airlift has given them some dosh after flights for the Wales V Ireland have been Departing all day Yesteday and a few today. And I hope to Visit CWL Tommorow and get some shots of the babys bringing back the Welsh Supporters.

[mathers_wales_uk]

"BmiBaby319"

BmiBaby has dropped the BFS from CWL as of last month and plan to reduce the EDI schedule to 1 x Daily for Summer 2010 season. The Glasgow has not appeared to be operated from CWL for 1 or 2 years and have planned to return it on several occasions but it has never materialised.

Looking at the BmiBaby website which now has started selling some destinations for Winter 2010.
BFS - Returns 1 x daily except for Saturdays
EDI - Returnes 2 x daily Mon-Friday / 1 x daily on Sundays / no operation on saturdays
JER - 2 x Weekly (Tuesdays & Saturdays)
GVA - 3 x Weekly (Starts end of Dec)
New Route
MUC - 4 x Weekly (Mondays, Wednesdays, Fridays, Sundays

The issue we have is that BmiBaby are cutting and adding flights which will only have a negative impact on passengers numbers as they continue to become messed about by the Bmibaby cancellations.

If Bmibaby continue to keep 2 x aircraft based at CWL there is a very limited operation that could be done and would see MUC being droppped unless a reduction in frequencies to the bucket and spade routes.

Flybe has now taken on the Belfast market from BmiBaby and have the ideal market for such a route and the same may apply after end of summer with WW daily rotation being mid day, not very convenient for business passengers.

The Future of WW at CWL

I honestly say that BmiBaby could have a bright future at CWL if they used their heads and looked at what is really needed.

Barcelona was a good route and very popular
Prague excellent route and took a lot of revenue on board flights
Ibiza Sold well but had very poor flying times

BmiBaby could have a profitable summer operation out of CWL with 4 aircraft but unfortunatly there is not enough work for the aircraft during the winter.

What routes do pprune members think would work from CWL and why?

[dublindispatch]

Didnt sell well at all and a lot of the flights made P flights ex DUB. They did sell some of the seats on the DUB-CWL but i doubt enough to make them think a market is there.

Granted it would be great to see WW back in Dublin but I would guess that CWL on on the radar as it not eligible for any DAA grant aid.

[mathers_wales_uk]

I am sure of the figures CWL-DUB-CWL but 70-80 did arrive on one of the WW DUB-CWL flights yesterday. If their happy operating CWL-EDI with those figures then i guess they would be happy with that.

The issue here is that Aer Lingus were initially selling DUB-CWL to earn money on the return legs instead also.

I don't believe that CWL-DUB schedule will work and i believe that Bmibaby should start concentrating on looking further afield rather than domestic and Ireland market as Flybe seem to have it sown up and BmiBaby in the long run will only continue to loose money trying to fight which they can't afford to do.

[bmibaby319]

I dont see Munich being dropped, as when bmibaby operated it in 2003, It Carried 18 Thousand odd passengers, Between December and March.

[mathers_wales_uk]

I hope you are right but the issue we have are in the summer new routes are replacement for other services so overall were adding the route portfolio getting anymore as other carriers are not operating the dropped routes out of CWL.

Due to the number of units BmiBaby are forced to seek new routes and then dropping the poor performing routes as they do not have the planes to add capacity.

Hopefully when LH fine tunes Bmibaby we will see more routes from the LH group be it operated by BmiBaby or Germanwings.

The one thing we do all know is that many routes operated by Bmibaby out of other bases would be ideal candidates for operation out of CWL and there is certainly enough routes for 4 based summer units.

[MerchantVenturer]

As we say consistently on PPRuNe loads often don't tell us much - it's the yields that keep airlines in business and it's impossible for those of us outside the airline industry to even make an educated guess as to which routes might or might not work, or might not work as well as options for the same airline elsewhere.

Incidentally, the bmibaby CWL-MUC route never operated between December and March 2003. Its only outing as a route was in the summer of 2003 when it carried just under 19,000 passengers in the seven months from April to October that year, so it will interesting to see how it performs as a winter route.

[loveJet]

Seems a little odd to be increasing frequency on a very seasonal route from BOH to JER for the winter from 3 to 4 weekly. They should keep their frequency the same until it's proven during the winter and THEN increase frequency for the following summer.

[bmibaby319]

Maybe people want a nice Winter Break?

[fanrailuk]

You're talking sense, they do have some erratic route development, what goes on behind doors will remain a mystery...but, on the other hand maybe looking ahead is the best thing, and to sell them this far in advance even better - thus filling the seats by the time the flight takes off!

Or, knowing bmibaby, cutting the route in about, umm, July. :rolleyes:

PP

[sam dilly]

Rumour has it that the new MAN / LDE is looking very thin on quite a few dates.
Peak weeks not too bad, but quite a few "teens" about !
How long will that last ?
Ryanair out of STN to LDE end next month, leaving it back to the charterers
for the summer.

[Facelookbovvered]

The IPA at bmibaby - PPRuNe Forums (http://www.pprune.org/showthread.php?p=5576747#post5576747)

A right old bun fight going on in Terms and Endearment (http://www.pprune.org/terms-endearment-38/) link above, much more fun than whats on here at the minute

Makes David and Goliath seem a minor squabble

[speed-brake]

Crawford Rix is leaving BMIbaby and moving to Managing Director of Tiger Airways Australia.

Tiger Airways names boss for Aussie arm

Tiger Airways Holdings Ltd has appointed the former boss of low-cost UK carrier bmibaby as managing director of its Australian operations.
Aviation veteran Crawford Rix will head up the Singapore-based airline's Australian arm after a four-year stint as managing director at bmibaby.
He takes over from Shelley Roberts, who has held the position since mid-2008.
Ms Roberts established Tiger Airways Australia as a major national airline, leading it from infancy to profitability, Tiger Airways Holdings Group CEO Tony Davis said.
"After completing her hand-over to Crawford, she intends to take a well-deserved break," he said in a statement.
Mr Rix's career in the industry spans more than 30 years.
He has held senior positions with several UK airlines including Dan Air, bmi Regional and bmibaby.
During his time at bmibaby, he brought the airline to the top position in the UK in terms of reliability and punctuality among low-cost carriers, Tiger said.
"We are delighted that Crawford will be joining us later in the year," Mr Davis said.
"With his experience and track record, he will be a great asset to the business."
Mr Rix will relocate to Melbourne in the coming months to begin his new role.
Tiger started flying in Australia in November 2007, based from Melbourne's Tullamarine Airport and Adelaide.
The airline is also due to start flying from Brisbane to Melbourne, Adelaide and Rockhampton this month.

[Flightrider]

It seems to be de riguer that a posting to Tiger Airways must follow an appointment as MD of bmibaby. One can only hope that the job spec in Tiger Australia does not require copious quantities of enthusiasm and drive to deliver it.

[Firestorm]

During his time at BMI Baby he brought the company to it's knees... Rat and sinking ship? Women, and children first. The Australians will eat him for a between meal snack.

I have heard that Melbourne Australia is known as one of the most uninspiring cities in Aus. He ought to fit well then!

[shamrock7seal]

New air link to Bournemouth - Jersey News, Jersey Local News, Jersey Latest News, News In Jersey - channelonline.tv (http://www.channelonline.tv/channelonline_jerseynews/DisplayArticle.asp?ID=487924)

[bmibaby319]

I hate to break it to you, but thats old news.


Cheers
bmibaby319

[ryan2000]

In tnese recessionary times marketing departments at airports tend to rehash route launches over and over again.

[aidoair]

Just noticed EMA-PRG is no longer for sale after the end of May. With ryanair no longer serving the route from EMA I would have thought there would have been enough demand for this route to operate during the summer :sad:.
EasyJet are flying from Doncaster to PRG from April :) as well as Ryanair from BHX.

Does anyone know if this is because of lack of demand or further aircraft shortage? Anyone know of any further 'new' routes that have been chopped :confused:.

Cheers :ok:

[mathers_wales_uk]

With a reduction in the BmiBaby fleet for 2010 it makes business sence that the airline would have to make the most out of the limited units available.

Prague may be quite lucritive in winter months for the airline but maybe other routes out perform it during the summer.

Bmibaby has to make the most amount of money out of the limited facilities available.

[handsfree]

I've just booked a flight with bmibaby and having got the return email confirmation it states that my wife has opted for 'airport check in' which isn't what we wanted and I'm sure wasn't requested. My 'check in' is correct as 'online' but having gone back to the website there appears to be no way to change my wife's to 'online check in'. There also appears to be no telephone number to talk to anyone about rectifying this (after several calls to other phone numbers and not getting much help).
Could one of you kind bmibaby peeps out there give me a hint as to how to get in touch with someone to talk to before it comes to barricades on Park Lane and the Spanish Inquisition.
PLEASE, all I want to do is check in 'online'. ;)
PS no carry on baggage, so it's not that

[aidoair]

Don't worry!! Even if 'airport check-in' has been selected, you are still able to check-in online, as long as you are travelling with hand luggage only obviously. Just choose all members of your party when the time comes to check-in online.

[handsfree]

aidoair: Thanks, I really appreciate that timely reply, it's really helped especially for the return leg.

bmibaby management: What I don't appreciate is the fact that it has cost me £10 for airport 'check in' that I didn't want and don't seem to be able to change as I've already now paid for it.

Thanks again for your help aidoair.

[paul atkins]

aidoair- prague flights now operating from the 17th september through the winter season, suprised about malta operating through the winter just hope it dont get chopped like one of the new birmingham flights

[stuart-travel]

New MD qouted in the press that for 2010/11 baby would have 23 destinations, todate thy have 15 quoted or have baby playing with winter and summer flights quoted together, so if this is correct EMA will see 8 more winter destinations.

regards
stuart

[Kavs8]

Any news of a Cork return for bmibaby?

*Birmingham had on average 85 to 105 passengers (it operated daily except Thursday) but was dropped in early 2008.

*Manchester had on average between 76 to 93 passengers (it operated daily then cut to 5 pw) but was dropped in April 2010.

*East Midlands the biggest puzzel on average between 43 to 71 passengers, it operated from December 2009 to March 2010 with 0 advertising....

What do bmibaby expect when they do 0 advertising and expect routes to sell..... Aer Lingus adverties all its Cork U.K. routes and has on average 91 to 129 passengers from Cork to Manchester (daily route).

Any1 remember the days of ORK-LGW bmibaby should have cappitolsed on Cork a bad mistake by the airline... Hopefully Julian Carr will see some sence and return to ORK!

[EI-BUD]

Any1 remember the days of ORK-LGW bmibaby should have cappitolsed on Cork a bad mistake by the airline... Hopefully Julian Carr will see some sence and return to ORK!

Kavs8

I remember when bmibaby did dip their toe in the water re Cork Gatwick, they also did Gatwick Prague, it wasnt long before Easyjet announced arrival on these routes and bmibaby absconded. I am not sure but I remember reading somewhere maybe on here at that time that some sort of deal was done between the 2.

I dont see how bmibaby would have made much progress at Cork, it would only be a matter of time before Aer Lingus or Ryanair went after their business from Cork and in the long it would not have been sustainable.
From the republic I think that if the originating passengers especially in Cork or the regions have a choice they will choose Aer Lingus, though that it open to debate, but it would seem nowadays that the customer has little choice except the Irish airlines.

For me the big mistake bmibaby made was not going after Gatwick in a big way, if the management of the company had been more forward thinking they might have got into the race to grow at a time when easyjet was much smaller, and by growing could have made something significant from scale. Perhaps if that had happened baby would be one of the big LOCOs, but sadly it is not.

EI-BUD

[bcn_boy]

Anybody have any ideas how well the bookings are going for the Munich flights from Cardiff? It was a popular route when Baby first launched. Thanks.

[G-OFLY]

The highest booked figure i've seen so far is 29 when i looked two days ago, i'm sure their numbers will increase in the coming months!

[mathers_wales_uk]

Can't say thats too bad considering the advertising as usual has been non existent

[G-OFLY]

Yeah i agree, BMI Baby = No advertising!!!!

[bcn_boy]

Baby had better pull their fiingers out and start the advertising, if not them, then the airport itself and the WAG, I dont want this route failing, we will have the only conneciton to Bavaria from the South West and on a more selfish note, I have six seats booked for December, off to the Christmas markets and Salzburg!

[cyfarthfa]

The only airline that expects to succeed without advertising where it flies!!! Not only no advertising in the UK but also abroad. When they used to fly from CWL to Prague, Munich, Milan etc, did they ever try to attract inward pax--- No. Nothing has changed.

[owenkirk2005]

Just noticed some cutbacks on the EMA - EDI service, was booked to travel back on the 21.40 EDI-EMA service but noticed ive been moved to the 18.40! No email to confirm this with me, any advice on weather its possible to change to a alternative day with a late flight?

[bmibaby319]

Just go for it Welsh Guy, they will want all the help they can get!

[Kavs8]

Anybody now how Bmibaby are doing??

[fanrailuk]

Doing in what sense....money, routes, passenger figrues?!

PP :)

[FR-]

I would like to know when it will stop ema-belfast. The loads are very low most days. At what point will it say enough is enough? I mean ryanair do 3xbhd per day, and is almost giving seats away just to try and pull pax away from baby. I think its time to pull out off belfast from ema.

I think the Baby should look at places like Lisbon/Madrid

[INKJET]

Unfortunately the 140 pax booked on this mornings EMA-BFS (Sat) don't share your view, it is one of babys most roller coaster routes in terms of numbers!!

But your right Ryanair have dumped massive capacity onto this route and are giving tickets away most of the time, out of choice most would prefer to fly to BHD i suspect (if visiting Belfast)

I agree that MAD/LIS would be better but they take rather longer than a 40 min trip to BFS

They(baby)would be better doing EMA-DUB on a Friday and Sunday these flights are often expensive with FR from EMA but £50 cheaper from BHX why? because they have competition in BHX, i suspect that Ryanair would love to see baby off BFS and then hike the prices it's their MO

[BHX5DME]

BMI boss predicts profit in two years - Travel Trade Gazette (http://www.ttglive.com/c/portal/layout?p_l_id=3208370&CMPI_SHARED_articleId=4106955&CMPI_SHARED_ImageArticleId=4106955&CMPI_SHARED_articleIdRelated=4106955&CMPI_SHARED_ToolsArticleId=4106955&CMPI_SHARED_CommentArticleId=4106955&articleTitle=BMI%20boss%20predicts%20profit%20in%20two%20yea rs)

[FR-]

Lol so defencsive. I think all flights are busy with it being bank holiday weekend. But the CAA stats says it all really, BFS down, BHD up.

DUB, dont be silly, who is going to even try and start a DUB from a Ryanair base.

I hope AHO does well from ema, are some of these seats sold to charters?

Good luck anyway

fr-

[Binder]

How are Baby doing?

Well I checked in at BHX at 0520 for 0700 departure on a Saturday morning recently. Baby check in was a mile long with only 3 bods on the desks.

Then the airport security queue was also 'round the block'. Upshot was I had to sprint to the gate and only just 'made it'.

An awful airport experience and awful website in complete contrast to a great flight and great crew!

Profitable in two years? That's a tall order!

Binder

[FR-]

I must admit the web site does need some work doing to it.

[handsfree]

The website certainly does have it's problems. Went to Nice last week. On booking the tickets I entered all the passports details. Checked later and all info was there. Came to book online and web said no passport details entered. Entered them and all was well. Came time to book online for return journey and once more faced with no passport details entered.
Not life threatening I know but a pain in the bum having to keep entering data that's already there.

[aidoair]

...the 140 pax booked on this mornings EMA-BFS (Sat) don't share your view, it is one of babys most roller coaster routes in terms of numbers!!


As for the EMA to BFS route, I agree the numbers are up and down on the route on a daily basis, some mornings the flight can be fully booked and others only around 50-60 people onboard. The same goes for the evening services, though from what I have seen at least on the EMA - BFS evening rotation, it seems to have higher loads than on the morning flights, at least on week days. I really hope baby keep at the route, as a regular on it, it's great to have a choice and for me and others the International airport is more convienient, just depending where you need to be and when. So far the flights are available 2 x daily bookable right the way up until march!

Also I have flown the EMA - BHD route a number of times and the loads on this seem to also fluctuate alot. Don't forget that FR aircraft have potentially another 20? seats to fill on this route and now at 3 x daily. With their sometimes low fares of £3-£5 relatively close to departure date and a heavier aircraft to operate on the route it can't be that much of a money maker for them ? As people have mentioned they just want the monopoly on the route now.

I must admit the web site does need some work doing to it.

I too agree on this, though since it's make over, it has had some tweaks to it here and there and seems to be a little better now at loading and at the search menu process.

Finally overall bmibaby must be getting on pretty well now. The Lufthansa/bmi group seem to feel positive about them and with the new managing director now more enthusiastic and positive about the airline, I bet we can expect to see some small expansion on routes at there current bases. Already recently mentioned was a planned increase on niche routes at their Manchester base and hopefully further expansion from EMA for next summer. :ok:

I do have to say their 737-500s are looking better inside and out with there new larger titles. As for some of the 737-300s they could do with a spruce up here and there. Maybe similar to Jet2 or just a good old clean!:}

[toledoashley]

Just a few highlights from the T.witter Q&A session with the new MD:

1) Planning on developing existing bases of EMA, BHX, MAN, CWL. New routes planned, but only MAN confirmed for new routes. Will be launched soon.
2) Summer 2011 is just being finalised. Hinted that MAN - LIS and FAO will stay.
3) No plan for moves into the South East
4) No plan to change the fleet at the moment, but have hinted that new aircraft will be needed in the future.
5) Plan more intergration with bmi, and possible with LH.
6) Looking to develop Customer Service, possible with T.witter feed (a la easyjet / bmi)

[11K-AVML]

Looking to develop Customer Service, possible with PPRuNe feed (a la easyjet)As long as it's nothing like the bmi t_wtt_er feed...that thing is dreadful!

- Never knew that if you type the name of T-WI-T-T_ER the word gets changed to PPRuNe

[toledoashley]

How strange!

[INKJET]

NOT AN ADVERT

Birmingham to:
Nice
Faro
Alicante
Geneva
Murcia
Palma

Cardiff to:
Munich
Alicante
Malaga
Faro
Mahon
Palma
Geneva
Murcia

East Midlands to:

Cologne
Munich
Venice
Nice
Alicante
Faro
Malaga
Prague
Barcelona
Malta
Mahon
Alghero
Geneva
Palma
Almeria

Manchester from:
Prague
Bordeaux
Perpignan
Geneva
Toulouse
Lisbon
Lourdes


Good new for all the baby peeps, who don't have the worry of another Xmas "under threat", not checked details so some maybe Winter or Summer

Domestic's to be added in next phase:ok:

[Nakata77]

BOH-JER finishes 28th Jun, barely two months after it started.

Trying to compete with 8 daily flights from SOU (flybe and Blueislands) is rather pathetic with 3 flights a week on a 737 - with fares often more expensive than those at SOU! D'ER!

Load factors on BOH-JER averaged 36% in May.

[Facelookbovvered]

It twas a daft idea in first place (JER-BOH) they would have been far better doing a W with CWL and use the CWL for something else, but hey ho they had a go, i am sure the crew wont lose any sleep over it

[scott737]

Inkjet-

Presumably more flights other than domestics are still to be added? For instance, I see that BHX-AMS and EMA-AMS and EMA-CDG do not appear on the list.

Does anyone know if this is just perhaps more than just domestics are still to come?

Scott

[OliWW]

EMA-AMS
EMA-CDG

Will defently be back and will be on sale in the next few weeks... MAN-AMS I am not sure about, but highly likely to be back I'd have thought, pax numbers have been fair on those flights

EMA-DUS is one possibility for a futre route for Summer 2011, I know this is now under discussion with the release of EMA-CGN and MUC and also Naples is another possible route for S11 from EMA

[Deep and fast]

Things should improve with PD's promotion if his reputation is anything to go by.

D and F :8

[stuart-travel]

Oliww ;
Is the jer-ema still planned for 2011, as we are planning tours on the ema-jer with coach connection from towns and city to the south of the airport.

regards
stuart

[OliWW]

stuart-travel
You can never be 100% confident on any route returning, but the fact bmibaby have operated this route from almost the very start, 2004 I think, and the fact it is still operational during the winter suggests very likely that it should be back

[aidoair]

Will defently be back and will be on sale in the next few weeks... MAN-AMS I am not sure about, but highly likely to be back I'd have thought, pax numbers have been fair on those flights


Would be great to see baby back on the MAN-AMS route, though with it finishing at the beggining of the summer schedules, I doubt to see it back untill at least more commitment to aircraft based at MAN. Add to this with the rumour of EZY starting a daily / possibly 2x daily service on the route from the winter then more unlikely.

As stated more routes to be on sale soon including the domestics and AMS, CDG etc. Also in regards to the T-w-i-tt-e-r Q&A session with Julian Carr bmibaby's MD, new routes could also be in the pipeline for next summer. Watch this space was the phrase used...:ok:

[INKJET]

CDG AMS BFS & JER are all domestics for baby and operate year round, the website has been tweaked since first thing with Dubrovnik now added.

The BOH route was a hangover from previous management, but was given a chance, wrong aircraft for the route, i would expect some new routes but not many two or three at most.

Things are settling down at baby in the post Bishop era,with a new management team and much less short term-ism view of the world, Ryanair falling out with EMA (MAG) would help, but i can't see it myself

[planenut321]

From what I can see, we will need a 3rd aircraft for next summer with 3 departures some mornings between 6-7am, Edinburgh becoming 2 daily and maybe Belfast staying. Also room for new routes.
This is for the week 6th June. Routes such as MAH increase to 3 weekly later in summer.

Monday
A1
MUC 07:00-11:55
A2
AGP 07:10-13:15
MJV 17:10-23:05
A3
PMI 06:00-11:30
FAO 12:00-18:00
ALC 18:30-00:15

Tuesday
A1
AGP 07:10-13:15
ALC 17:05-22:50
A2
MUC 07:00-11:55
FAO 15:45-21:45
A3
PMI 07:00-12:30

Wednesday
A1
ALC 14:20-20:05
A2
AGP 07:10-13:15
A3
#

Thursday
A1
PMI 07:00-12:30
ALC 15:45-21:30
A2
AGP 07:10-13:15
FAO 17:05-23:05
A3
#

Friday
A1
MUC 07:00-11:55
ALC 17:10-22:55
A2
AGP 07:10-13:15
MAH 18:25-23:55
A3
PMI 06:00-11:30
MJV 12:00-17:55

Saturday
A1
AGP 06:15-12:15
ALC 12:55-18:40
FAO 19:10-01:10
A2
FAO 11:55-17:15
PMI- 17:45-23:15
A3
#

Sunday
A1
AGP 06:15-12:15
MAH 12:55-18:25
ALC 18:55-00:40
A2
MJV 06:30-12:55
MUC 17:50-22:45
A3
PMI 12:45-18:15

[DomyDom]

Anyone know when the new bmibaby MAN routes are likely to go on sale for 2011? And if so any roumers on what they are? Thanks.

[aidoair]

Any news or rumours on baby? All has gone a little quiet since the summer 2011 route releases...

Anyone have an idea when the rest of the summer routes will go on sale? i.e the domestics and possibilities of new routes at all?


:ok:

[INKJET]

What is on sale now and assuming the likes of EDI,GLA,BFS,CDG,AMS remain much as they are this Summer then it needs at least 14 aircraft as now, not sure if any hand backs are due this winter, but 2 of the 14 were lease extensions?

New routes

Wouldn't expect much, it will be interesting to what if any response baby have to Jet2 expansion at EMA,

With Ryanair, baby & Jet2 all adding capacity at EMA this year and next and BHX in decline with LoCo's will baby add units in BHX?

I suspect Ryanair will not add any more based units at EMA for 2011 but (Ryanair) with based units in most of the popular Med destinations they don't need to and EMA is fast running out of over night parking in Summer

[wanna_be_there]

Inkjet,

Mr Carr (bmi baby head) has said MAN will get more routes and more based aircraft.

It has specified down to the point MAN will get more marginal city routes, so will be interesting to see what happens.

In a twitter session, they also stated the midlands will eventually get more growth, but I dont think he was specific to EMA or BHX, so some expansion will take place.

[Vuelo]

Is WW really commited to Lisbon? Or, is it time they gave the route over to a quality airline like TAP who could exploit their impressive connections portfolio at LIS?

Often the WW fares on MAN-LIS route are way abouve those of AF, BA. KL, IB, BD/TP etc. and they have totally useless timings for either business or pleasure. I mean, Tuesdays and Saturdays??? Err?? Hello?

[CheekyVisual]

There's nothing to stop TAP operating the route now if they wanted to. Competition is not banned by Manchester airport. They obviously just aren't interested.

[INKJET]

Live Twitter Q&A with Acting Operations Director, Pete Durnford

bmibaby’s recently appointed Acting Operations Director, Pete Durnford, will be taking part in a live Twitter interview on July 22nd at 3pm. This will be the second in a series of live Twitter Interviews on the @bmibaby_com Twitter feed.

Pete will be taking over the @bmibaby_com Twitter feed for an hour to answer questions on bmibaby flight operations, the bmibaby fleet and offering career advice for any budding pilots out there!

[JonnyBfs]

Do we have any ideas about when WW are going to release the Summer 2011 remaining flights, such as domestics?

[crewmeal]

Seems like baby are ripping off passengers by having 2 different size cages for baggage checks. How low can this outfit get? It's worse than Ryanair.

BBC - Watchdog: bmibaby Baggage Blunder... (http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/watchdog/2010/09/bmi_baggage_blunder.html)

Good for the beeb for exposing such a malpractice. I wonder how much they made out of unsuspecting passengers

[Mr A Tis]

Good for WD in exposing these LCCs scams. Baby are not the only one's. One day, the punters will wake up and realise the full fare carriers are significantly less hassle and very often just as cheap.
At the moment I have Baby, Easy & Ryanair on my black list. The truth is, they are IMHO too much hassle to be worth trying to save a few quid on a flight. I know sometimes there is no option on certain routes but to use these guys, but boy, when I have a choice they won't see me for dust.

[ryan2000]

I wonder will BMI baby go back on ORK MAN given that EI have withdrawn from the route and that Aer Arann look vulnerable. The same could be said of ORK BHX.

[JonnyBfs]

I am just interested in the release date of these domestic flights!! BFS-MAN as I want to book a connection with TCX onto Toronto!

Any idea when available?

[aidoair]

bmibaby are expected to release 'phase 2' of their summer 2011 schedule sometime next week. This will include the rest of their UK & Ireland domestic routes that are currently only on sale untill 26th March, as well as Amsterdam, Paris etc.

I've heard various rumours, some directly from bmibaby such as from their inflight magazine and f.book page, of a few new routes to be added too. I'm just wondering has anyone else heard anything of these possible new routes? I know a couple of years back, baby said they were going to increase there presence at MAN to be one of the bigger players there. I know that because of various factors they had to downsize, but I hope some of these new routes can be added to their MAN base again.

[planenut321]

Apparent new routes include:

CWL- IBZ
EMA - IBZ
EMA - VRN

Not sure of any more with apparently 2 extra aircraft being added to the fleet.

[JonnyBfs]

Wonder if Belfast will get any new routes?

[aidoair]

Not sure of any more with apparently 2 extra aircraft being added to the fleet.

Have also heard of this. I know it's best to expand slowly and steadily again but ideally they could do with three or four extra frames. One for each base so that the minimum at CWL, BHX & MAN would be 3x based units all year round.

Wonder if Belfast will get any new routes?


bmibaby have always said that the BFS market is important to them, I guess called it a focus city. Though I think if they were to start new routes from BFS to outside of the UK atleast, they would ideally need to set up base there. I know they have operated Prague and perhaps one or two others on W-patter routes before, but this is usually in the winter when they have spare slots in the schedule to offer such routes as it obviously cuts the amount of routes / flights offered from the based aircrafts airport.

[Hull City AFC]

bmibaby has added Palma back to Manchester for summer 2011 operating twice a week on a Thursday and a Sunday. :ok:

[ryan2000]

Manchester Cork and Birmingham Cork might again be viable now that Aerlingus have abandoned them. Aer Aran isn't quite as big an opponent even if they do operate the routes next Summer.

[Ringwayman]

Aer Lingus hasn't abandoned Cork. If using Aer Arann operating as Aer Lingus Regional on the routes makes it viable then it's only logical to eliminate the A320 and make day returns possible.

[wanna_be_there]

Not sure of any more with apparently 2 extra aircraft being added to the fleet

Maybe MAN based as there was a press release a few months ago where Julian Carr stated they were going to try niche city routes from MAN and move away from the bucket and spade brigade.
This may have changed now, however as:

bmibaby has added Palma back to Manchester for summer 2011

Seems to be saying one thing but doing another? Palma is about as bucket and spade as they come.

[Firestorm]

WBT it is all relative. Knowing BMI Baby's 'clientele' Palma is very upmarket, almost jetsetting!

[aidoair]

Maybe MAN based as there was a press release a few months ago where Julian Carr stated they were going to try niche city routes from MAN and move away from the bucket and spade brigade.


I know from MAN they said they were going to focus on niche routes that are underserved in the region. However as they have re-launched PMI from MAN this winter it looks as though bookings have been positive and so they have made it a year round route. I didn't understand why they dropped such a route in the first place, despite alot of competition on the route during the summer months, it's probably always going to be a route that performs well for all airlines in the UK.

I guess they are going to be very careful and looking at bringing routes back that they know are popular and can make money. I wouldn't be surprised if FAO makes a comeback on the MAN schedule.

[GnRdL]

I guess they are going to be very careful and looking at bringing routes back that they know are popular and can make money. I wouldn't be surprised if FAO makes a comeback on the MAN schedule.
And ALC?

I've seen that they only gonna operate EMA from/to ALC during Jan-Mar. It's a significant reduction.

Another of "my questions" is why lately companies are focusing on the UK market in PMI?

[Legal Beagle]

Does BmiBaby have any plans to utilise the aircraft that sits on the ground at CEG all weekend in between the Airbus shuttle flights I wonder?

Any plans to try to develop anything out of CEG? Quite a market there for an airline with a bit of enterprise.

[aidoair]

Does BmiBaby have any plans to utilise the aircraft that sits on the ground at CEG all weekend in between the Airbus shuttle flights I wonder?

Any plans to try to develop anything out of CEG? Quite a market there for an airline with a bit of enterprise.

I believe this is a 'bmi regional' Embraer aircraft rather than 'bmibaby'.

As far as I am aware there are no plans to utilise the aircraft on other routes from the airport. I believe the exclusivity of the contract ensures that they will not be loosing money basing it here.

I guess it would probably cost more for it to fly out to other 'bmi regional' airports to operate a few short flight between it's down time also.

[aidoair]

Well bmibaby today released 'phase 2' of next summers schedule, bringing the full timetable for next summers flights on sale. Unfortunately everything seems pretty much the same as this year, give or take a couple of routes where frequency is cut or frequency added etc. The only big difference compared to this summer however would be the extension of Cologne and Munich.

Other than that there is no new routes as of yet and although I have not looked at the timetables for based units fully yet, I doubt there is much room for new routes? especially the rumoured IBZ & VRN?

[mathers_wales_uk]

Looking at CWL flights for Summer 2011 below you will be able to see there are gaps but not enough flights at the moment to justify a 3 aircraft base.

So over the next few weeks we will either have a route announcement for a new route or two and added frequencies or we will see MUC dropped and flights re-shuffled.

I suppose we will just have to wait and see.

Monday

Aircraft 1 CWL-PMI 06:00 - 11:30 CWL-FAO 12:00 - 18:00 CWL-ALC 18:30 - 00:15
Aircraft 2 CWL-AGP 07:00 - 13:15 CWL-EDI 13:45 - 16:45 CWL-MJV 17:10 - 23:00
Aircraft 3 CWL-MUC 15:25 - 20:05

Tuesday

Aircraft 1 CWL-AGP 06:05 - 12:20 CWL-ALC 12:50 - 18:35 CWL-PMI 19:05 - 00:35
Aircraft 2 CWL-PMI 07:00 - 12:30 CWL-JER 13:00 - 15:20 CWL-FAO 15:45 - 21:45

Wednesday

Aircraft 1 CWL-PMI 06:45 - 12:15 CWL-ALC 12:45 - 18:30
Aircraft 2 CWL-AGP 07:00 - 13:15 CWL-EDI 13:45 - 16:45 CWL-MAH 17:10 - 22:45

Thursday

Aircraft 1 CWL-PMI 06:00 - 11:30 CWL-ALC 12:00 - 17:45 CWL-AGP 18:15 - 00:30
Aircraft 2 CWL-AGP 07:00 - 13:15 CWL-JER 13:45 - 16:05 CWL-FAO 16:35 - 22:35
Aircraft 3 CWL-MJV 12:00 - 17:50

Friday

Aircraft 1 CWL-PMI 06:00 - 11:30 CWL-MAH 18:20 - 23:55
Aircraft 2 CWL-AGP 07:00 - 13:15 CWL-EDI 13:45 - 16:45 CWL-ALC 17:10 - 22:55
Aircraft 3 CWL-MUC 15:25 - 20:05

Saturday

Aircraft 1 CWL-AGP 06:10 - 12:25 CWL-ALC 12:55 - 18:40
Aircraft 2 CWL-JER 08:30 - 10:50 CWL-FAO 11:15 - 17:15 CWL-PMI 17:45 - 23:15

Sunday

Aircraft 1 CWL-AGP 06:00 - 12:15 CWL-MUC 15:25 - 20:05
Aircraft 2 CWL-PMI 06:00 - 11:30 CWL-EDI 18:40 - 21:40
Aircraft 3 CWL-MJV 06:35 - 12:25 CWL-MAH 12:55 - 18:35 CWL-ALC 19:05 - 00:50

[JonnyBfs]

Belfast's timetable is the same as this year. Flights are reasonably priced for next summer to MAN, and BHX.
Have never noticed before, as I have only ever travelled WW with hand luggage, has the compulsory Airport checkin @£7.00 if you take hold luggage, always been there?

[CheekyVisual]

CWL to EDI and JER could be W Patterned from EMA or another base with some slight rejigging gives 2 a/c as now.

Although there are a few routes that might tempt them to put the 3rd a/c back if LH allow them to source extras BCN was always good, could return the EDI to 2 a day always did ok, IBZ was only dropped because of pax problems but would make money.

The problem Baby have with CWL is that you need profitable 1-1.30 hr sectors (domestics / near europe) to make the aircraft and crews pay their way that's why the 3rd aircraft was lost 4 sectors a day (sometimes only 2) can't cover its cost let alone make money. You need at least 8 profitable sectors most days for that third aircraft. Because crews can't do double meds (can in Ryanair !) it means you need an extra crew per aircraft per day if you are not finding a profitable extra two sectors per crew shift. Baby tried AMS, BFS, GLA, GVA and couldn't make them pay their way on the 73. That makes the operation more charter than LCC and that is the fundamental problem baby have across the network at the momnent.

No one really knows what will happen with LH and it is not November (big announcement month) yet. Hold your breath and keep everything crossed because Fly Be won't replace what you lose at CWL if baby go. Just be happy they are there at all for the moment. Better times will come and having Baby at CWL isn't keeping anyone else out. So cut them some slack and support what they are doing !

[INKJET]

The mood in bmibaby is that the worst is behind them and no one is expecting anything untoward this November. The last few years have taken its toll on the staff in all departments and a lot of (good) pilots have fled the nest for sunnier climes which means baby will need to recruit for next Summer

In the mean time the deferred pay rise will go ahead next spring which will help erase the memories of the last few years of peering into the abyss around November time!!

With only 14 aircraft the scope for trying new routes is limited but rumours of IBZ & VRN persist, Summer phase 2 is now in the booking system and has GVA & PRG year round (from EMA) it will be interesting to see if CWL-MUC makes it?

Everyone is expecting growth to restart in 2012, it will be interesting to see how many additional aircraft are to be added and of course the additional airbus orders for LH will be freeing up their older 737 fleet by then and they have 50 of them!! so who knows? just need the French to stop striking, fat chance:ok:

[Kavs8]

Is bmibaby planning to replace its B733's & B735's at all. They're getting quite old hence the recent jump in tech faults anyone no if there is any plans for investment by LH? - Also what happened to bmibaby's Manchester plans of getting of niche routes and expanding to popular destinations? if so could citybreaks like ORK, CDG or AMS be returned?

[clareview]

5 page article on baby in the November edition of Airliner World. It reports that there are no immediate plans to replace the classics though the 500's might go to be replaced by more 300's. It adds that a full fleet renewal is a few years down the road.

[fanrailuk]

Although the recent release of more seats to destinations from all bases might be seen as 'phase 2', I am led to believe that it's just 'adding' to whats already there according to @bmibaby_com on another social network (i.e. domestics).

PP :)

[aidoair]

Is bmibaby planning to replace its B733's & B735's at all. They're getting quite old hence the recent jump in tech faults anyone no if there is any plans for investment by LH?

bmibaby now managing director Julian Carr has recently answered selected questions given to him by the public about the company: bmibaby chief Julian Carr answers your questions - Runway Girl (http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/runway-girl/2010/10/bmibaby-chief-julian-carr-answ.html) I feel he is committed to the company and is definately not scared of getting involved with the running of the front line or involved with the public like some airline execs...

He also answered on the bmibaby f. book page or t. witter page a while back that there are no immediate plans to replace them as they currently work well for the airlines model. However in the future as part of wider bmi/lufthansa group plans would look into evaluating a new aircraft type.

Also what happened to bmibaby's Manchester plans of getting of niche routes and expanding to popular destinations? if so could citybreaks like ORK, CDG or AMS be returned?

I also wonder about this. I know they had to scale down etc and most as to why are answered in the above link or in various posts around the web. However I feel they need to get their foot in the door pretty quick at MAN as they really do have potential there. They just need to commit to it. I cant see the likes of CDG or AMS to return as they are now well served by Flybe and easyJet, though ORK could be a potential return.

[Johnny455]

though ORK could be a potential return.

Cork is already served by Aer Lingus Regional twice daily.

Would this really work?

[aidoair]

Cork is already served by Aer Lingus Regional twice daily.

Would this really work?

I forgot about them, they seem to have gone very quiet since the news that Aer Arran was in some sort of financial trouble, that's probably why, for some reason I though they pulled off the route.

However, I don't see why bmibaby couldn't compete on any such route from MAN if they wanted to, though I guess at the minute the demand for ORK is better suited to the likes of Aer Lingus Regional with the smaller aircraft, at least for the minute anyway.

[sam1993]

A quote by Julan Carr, managing director of bmibaby explaining the future plans for the airline:


Since Lufthansa's takeover of bmi, budget arm bmibaby has been slimmed down from 17 Boeing 737s to 14. "At the moment we are focussing on being good at what we do. We aren't looking at massive growth plans. There are no plans to wipe out Ryanair," jokes Julian Carr, who became bmibaby managing director in April. "Our role within the group is to be a successful business in our own right."
Despite tough trading conditions, he says 2010 has been "a hell of an improvement on last year" as bmibaby continues to learn from its experiences and tweak its network accordingly. He readily confesses that bmibaby does not have any "huge, earth shattering stuff coming up" and 2011 will only see a gradual iteration of this year's programme. Growth will resume in 2012.
In the meantime, Carr is looking to promote bmibaby's service focus. "There is a negativity towards the Ryanair brand where people generally prefer not to fly with them, so if we can be in the ballpark price of Ryanair and give good service, people will go for that. I want people to say 'bmibaby, they're the good service one'." He uses the example of US low-cost carrier Allegiant. "Even though we're small, we can still be damned good at what we do. We don't have to be a big airline to succeed."

[jpthomas72]

...has GVA & PRG year round (from EMA)...That's also good news for us around BHX, as EZY is again going for ski-season-only. Also good to see WW kept their EMA-CGN 5/week in the summer, so there must be some demand for this after all. WW must also be happy about FR leaving PRG.

[OltonPete]

I assume that this is not the last version?

If I have calculated correctly 15 aircraft required on some days.

The usual 3 at BHX & 2 at MAN. Then EMA seems to need 8 at
times on Monday and Fridays then there is the Cardiff schedule
which is a minimum of 2.

If VRN & IBZ are on for EMA then something else must give.

Pete

[stuart-travel]

Pete :
have run of the sun p/m flights at ema here is the routes and times
14.35-17.40 ema-ams
13.35-1855 ema-bcn
13.20-15.55 ema-bfs
13.25-20.00 ema-fao
15.10-17.55 ema-jer
12.45-17.35 ema-muc
15.20-18.25 ema-cdg
13.30-18.25 ema-prg

8 aircraft required will thy lease in 1 aircraft to cover for summer, may be that b737/500 not required at boh with the local tour company.

regards
stuart

[OliWW]

8 aircraft were planned to be needed at EMA for S10, with Bastia being operated on a Sun, and 2x CDG, but it never happened, so on the likely basis, this won't happen. It will be 7 aircraft over the week and that is it. Something will be dropped between now and April, and its most likely going to be MUC or CGN

[aidoair]

Well as rumoured the following new routes have finnally been announced for next summer;

East Midlands EMA - Verona VRN = 2x weekly
East Midlands EMA - Ibiza IBZ = 3x weekly
Cardiff Airport CWL - Ibiza IBZ = 2x weekly

I guess this will be it now for next summer as without any further fleet expansion there is no way of adding more routes.

Also in the press release, Manchester MAN - Palma PMI 2x weekly has been mentioned, which we already knew had been continued into the summer timetable.

[stuart-travel]

The one i was missing on a sun a/m ema-ibz will need to tweak one of the flights but now showing 8 aircraft on sun allday

we may see the flights to vrn and ibz on the tcx programme.

regards
stuart

[aidoair]

we may see the flights to vrn and ibz on the tcx programme.


Do Thomas Cook holidays still use seats on bmibaby flights to Alicante and Malaga from EMA?

[stuart-travel]

Aidoair :
summer tcx ema 2011 alc bmibaby x2 per week agp bmibaby x1 per week
update programme due out dec 2010

[aidoair]

''Apparently'' due to increased support from passengers, the change from BFS to BHD will now be from the 1st January 2011 instead of the 10/11th January. In my opinion they have probably had more people accept the change than they thought and so disrupted alot less passengers too.

[mathers_wales_uk]

Have you wondered what expansions plans bmibaby has got in store for their bases?
Wanted to know why they don't fly to specific destinations?
Fleet Expansion?

All the questions on the future of bmibaby route network and more can be asked directly to Simon Moore Network Development Manager for bmibaby.

Source (http://walesairnetwork.wordpress.com/2010/12/07/bmibabys-simon-moore-to-answer-your-questions/)

[FR-]

And where did andrew m end up?

[Wellington Bomber]

is that Simon Moore who used to work for Air Partner PLC

[aidoair]

Not sure, I guess so. All the questions and lead up to the routes is all going to be on bmibaby's face.bo.ok page; here (http://www.facebook.com/?ref=logo#!/pages/bmibabycom/301916946407)

[DomyDom]

Please can you consider providing new routes from Manchester to Berlin and Verona. There is a well healed market (Cheshire) for interesting city break and opera destinations. Evidence of this is the number of flights to Berlin via MUC/FRA etc. and a full opera house in Manchester. At the moment we need to use Lufthansa/ Brussels Airlines to go to these destinations. Would like to use BMIbaby but they need to provide the service to get the customers. After lots of big talk (hot air?) about expansion at MAN we've since heard lots of belly aching about wanting to be a successful but not very big airline with not many planes (???). It would be good to see some real committment by BMIbaby to MAN and a positive outlook recognised by happy customers - and BMIBaby rewarded accordingly. Message to baby is you have to in it to win it - even if you don't wan't to be be very big! Thanks, DomyDom

[jpthomas72]

Manchester to BerlinYou've put the same into the Easyjet thread with different destinations.
Well, the sane answer to your illusionary request is: There is no market for MAN-BER or BHX-BER ! Both have been tried by Jet2 and BAConnect a few years ago respectively and failed with poor loads. The little demand is served well by FR with EMA-SXF (EMA of course owned by MAN). LH has hourly flights to TXL from both FRA and MUC, so connections must be easy. Us at BHX use EMA or LTN or can do BE BHX-HAJ then train, which is not much slower really. Around MAN, people use LPL-SXF on EZY. BER is obviously in Germany so they have the new extra tax making it even less interesting. This might even put EMA-SXF under threat (no summer timetable yet, last bookable is 26th March). Don't get me started on the economic weakness of the BER catchment area, it's seriously less wealthy than e.g. DUS or MUC, and airlines know this. Until BER-proper (Willi-Brandt-Airport at Schoenefeld) is operational in fall 2012, also not much use for long-haul connections. Note also while you might be interested in Berlin, Berliners are in general not interested in Central England, for them UK is London (and maybe Edinburgh). For now, we hope that WW's EMA-CGN/MUC at least survive which is far from guaranteed. Airlines are businesses, not charities...

[INKJET]

I see baby are offering 22kg baggage as standard until then end of the month, this is clearly aimed at Jet2 and must become standard be for long, if your travelling with a reasonable amount of luggage then Ryanair are well out of court!!

As for Berlin yes please WW would be on it like a shot and yes CGN & MUC are here to stay

Ryanair will try and flood the Med market this Summer but WW will more than hold their own and Jet2 will struggle at EMA as the Sharm bubble bursts due to sharks and bombs in Egypt

[righthandrule]

I'm not too sure, out of the three carriers you mention, Ryanair, bmi baby and Jet2 - bmi baby are the least competitive and have offered a 22kg luggage allowance as an attempt to get rid of Jet2 from EMA, something that will not happen.

I know the bmi baby buffs will not like it but EMA has performed much better than projections, over the summer it consistently topped ancillary revenue targets out of all Jet2 UK bases, and the routes offered last summer had the highest load factor percentages after LBA.

Ryanair will always be the true low cost option and Jet2 certainly have lower operating costs than baby. It will be interesting to see what happens over the coming months.

[IThoughtTheredBeFood]

I think baby know this, hence the shifting of a disproportionately large volume of their available resources. I think it is true to say that the same applies over the winter and ema is their best performing base. Whether this has been helped by the big 2's regression or not is another matter.
Ittbf

[Mr A Tis]

JPT yr not entirely correct re the MAN-BER.
BA & then BA connect operated the route quite successfully to TXL twice a day with E145s.
Unfortunatley, Air Berlin moved in with a B738 (downgraded to a FK100) to TXL & also at the same time Jet2 launched a B733 to SXF.
So we ended up with 4 flights a day on some days. This killed it for everyone.
That was totaly unsustainable, so it ended up with all of them pulling out.
EZY have the North West market now on LPL-SXF, I don't see any change to that situation.
MAN had the route & lost it, but thats what happens in the free market.

[wanna_be_there]

bmi baby have applied for slots at SXF again, 5 weekly evening flights. Whilst it doesnt mean the route will happen, it shows that there is still interest in the route again.

[INKJET]

Look lets get it clear about Jet2 at EMA they have thus far been an IT operation and have yet to go head to head with babay or Ryanair at EMA on ticket only sales, plus all of their flights have been to places covered by the more established IT operators who have upped their offerings for 2011

They may have lower flight crew cost, baby Captains get between 12k-20k a year more and the F/o rates are near double, but Jet2 have a mixed fleet and have to cover night mail which may well go when the P/O is part privatised later this year.

baby have lived with Ryanair for more than a few years now and Jet2 know only to well what that has done to yields on the Leeds routes that go head to head.

[righthandrule]

An IT operation? I hardly call 40 seats sold to Co-Op Travel out of 229 on each 757 an IT operation. That is no more of an IT operation than bmibaby operate on some routes. Jet2 have been in direct competition with Ryanair on the Arrecife and Tenerife routes.

Yes, Jet2 have seen what Ryanair have done at LBA, quite frankly nothing. Hence more growth and the highest load factors seen since operations commenced. Jet2 have also walked over bmi baby at Manchester and will continue to grow at EMA. As I have said, and you agree, Jet2's cost base is much lower and is doing DOWN. I know some will not like it, but Jet2 are a dark horse and are going all guns blazing to make EMA a substantial station for the company.

[Firestorm]

The only reason BMI Baby have survived anywhere is by reducing the fleet by almost a 3rd of the last two years. They have always tried to serve business and holiday travelers, and fallen short on both counts by having flights at odd and inconvenient times. Quite how they managed to keep going is a mystery to me. each of the 3 companies in the group claimed to be the one that was making all the money that kept the other two afloat, but as soon as Sir Michael announced he was cashing in his shares and retiring BMI Baby laid off a load of crew, cancelled routes and handed back several aeroplanes. The company is unfocussed, has low standards of customer care and service, both on the ground and in the air, and if any other airline wanted to push it off any of it's routes could do so overnight.

[Icabod]

Firestorm my dear fellow, you appear to have a serious issue with bmibaby. I suspect the recession may have had a small effect. Should baby retract and survive or continue as they headed into bankrupcy.
Could it be you worked there and "couldn't cut the mustard"?
good luck at Jet2.

[DILLTHEDOG]

If what you say is true Firestorm, do you think they would be ideal candidates to base a couple of aircaft at Bournemouth, where there isn't much competition ?

Or should they just give up ?

[wings11]

Heard on the grapevine that bmi mainline are to base one aircraft each at BHX and MAN from summer 2011 for 18mths - 2 years.

I don't think its for charter work so anyone know if this is for baby or Lufthansa?

[OltonPete]

wings11

Some of the details were out before Christmas and discussed on the BHX and MAN threads. Believed to be one A320 at BHX and one at MAN for Lufthansa Frankfurt services.

The last time I checked it was not in LH timetable as yet.

Pete

[wanna_be_there]

Believed to be one A320 at BHX and one at MAN for Lufthansa Frankfurt services.

The last time I checked it was not in LH timetable as yet


On the slot waiting list for FRA, LH have applied for slots to have a based away unit operating MAN, so looks like that could be a runner. There was however, nothing at all applied for BHX.

[INKJET]

Jet2 at EMA is IT ie the majority of booking are with Jet2holidays.com, not the same as Jet2.com

Lets see what the next few years bring!!

bmi group losses have meant that baby have had to shrink, but do you think they have held on to MAN/BHX to fly two aircraft? out of each base?

With another 300 due shortly and dozens of Jet2 pilots applications on the CP desk i have little doubt that they will be still in the flight come 2012!!

Watch this space

[INKJET]

The increased load factors at LBA are due to a reduction in flight frequency, nothing against that in it self but less seats for sale means shrinkage

[righthandrule]

Jet2 at EMA is IT ie the majority of booking are with Jet2holidays.com, not the same as Jet2.com

What an earth are you on about, trust me the vast majority of seats are sold via Jet2.com, an average of about 10 passenger per flight on dynamic J2Hols packages, I will say it again, Jet2's EMA operation is not IT! Flight operate on a scheduled basis with around 70% of passengers booking direct on Jet2.com.

The increased load factors at LBA are due to a reduction in flight frequency, nothing against that in it self but less seats for sale means shrinkage

Dropped for summer was Karkow (4x weekly) and 3 of the 4 Pisa rotations. (Total -7) New routes & Increases included: MIR 1x weekly, Corfu 1x weekly, Tenerife +1 weekly, Dalaman, +1 weekly, Jersey +1 weekly, Bergerac 2x weekly. Total +7. Jet2 offered a higher capacity last summer, so quite the opposite of what you state.

I am not one for conflict and want ever airline to prosper, but bmi baby really needs to change their business model or find some kind of niche as they will not win when there is increased competition. bmi baby has always been a flawed business model from the start, it has branched away from its bmi routes but still has the overheads that other low cost carriers do not have.

Like Firestorm has said, if any airline wants to push baby off it's routes it will. Jet2 has done at Manchester, and i'm afraid they have got their sights on EMA. I hope bmi baby do something to differentiate themselves, first step would be to get some sort of decent website. I apologise for coming across as anti bmi baby, i'm not. I have have had 5 good experiences (and only one poor one, I fell victim to the hand luggage gauge scam) and I do hope they prosper.

[EI-BUD]

With another 300 due shortly


Hi Inkjet

Surely this 300 is for BHD/STN route?

EI-BUD

[Facelookbovvered]

Jet2 have wiped baby out of MAN?? You mean the same way they wiped out Ryanair from MAN

Come on guys smell the coffee, Jet2 are a good little airline but they have not wiped out anybody FFS

If i recall from the bmibaby debacle surrounding SMB and LH, LH refused to extend or renew any leases until the bmi groups losses were under control, that meant that when bmibaby's leases were up the aircraft were returned and the crews sent down the road, bmi baby went from 21? aircraft to 12-14 in the space of two years so some routes and bases were always for the cull and EMA would be protected above other bases

History lesson over

What fascinates me is what they do next year 2012, surely it's grow or die? they don't seem to have been to troubled by Ryanair at EMA and one could argue that they have seen them off Paris & BHD,but i doubt Ryanair would see it that way.

I'm sure there is plenty of room at EMA for Jet2 along side both Ryanair & baby, but if Jet2 have read their sucsess at MAN as a victory over baby and think they can do the same again at EMA i suspect they will catch a cold

Lets see who has got deep pockets?

[Jamie2k9]

Surely this 300 is for BHD/STN route?



Cardiff is losing a B733 to BHO. Cardiff will have only one based a/c Mon - Fri and the BHO on Sat and Sun.

[jerboy]

What fascinates me is what they do next year 2012, surely it's grow or die?

This question has been asked again and again at around this time of year for a good few years now. Every year seems to be 'make or break' for WW, yet they have trundled on and must be doing OK at least, or they simply wouldn't be operating right?

Having said that, WW does continually seem to be on a bit of a knife edge, with routes and strategy being changed quicker than most can keep up with. From the snapshot of the business that I've seen, loads are good on the majority of routes, and prices are hardly the cheapest around so there must be a fair bit of cash flow. However, I'm fully aware that this is no way to judge profit/loss over the entire airline.

My prediction for 2012; cautious expansion with maybe 2 or 3 aircraft joining the fleet (based MAN/BHX??). A few new routes tried, a few routes dropped. I.e. Just another unexceptional year for bmibaby. And lets just watch the same question being asked about 2013.

[take-off]

I think i'm right in remembering that it was MAN itself that was reason FR left, because they wouldn't play ball with FR's tactics, and so FR spat its dummy out and up and left to leeds, and an increase at liverpool....:E

[righthandrule]

How can you say bmi baby have not been wiped out at MAN? They had a good concept when the low cost model first came out but they never differetiates themselves. They have pretty poor service levels, and could have gone down the Ryanair route or alternately down the high service level Jet2/Monarch route. They charge Monarch fares yet give a Ryanair style service, not a winning combination. Baby could have gone big style at MAN, they have had more than enough chances, there is clearly a Market with Jet2, Monarch and easyJet all having large operations. Perhaps if they had done they would have developed a business model that works.

If leases was really the problem, why not source aircraft from a different lessor. 733 lease rates have been at an all time low for the last two years, why not pick up some more aircraft?

[Facelookbovvered]

Might i respectfully suggest you read my post again

The bmi group midst the LH/SMB takeover were sinking fast and would have long gone but for LH support the company was bleeding cash and most suspect the books/costs were so cross polluted that it was difficult to see the woods from the tree's. If LH could have cut and run they would have done so the deal done by SMB 10+ years ago had LH by the short and *****

In this climate there was no way that LH or SMB at the time could have committed to long term lease agreements or much else including fuel hedges the main reason behind such large and sudden loss when fuel hit near $150 a barrel

So left with a shrinking fleet and a need to protect EMA as best as they could MAN & BHX were cut back, which is very different from being wiped out by Jet2 or anyone else for that matter!

The routes left at MAN are a miss mash agreed and the quality of the product was trashed to save cash and yes some customers were mugged, but Jet2 have not exactly come up smelling of roses with their website antics either

If recall it was Jet2 that blinked first at MAN on the PRG route?

If and its a big if LH ever decide to get behind baby, then its worth remembering that the are one of the largest and most profitable airline groups in the world and Jet2 is of no concern to them what so ever.

Lets leave it at that and see what comes to pass

[DomyDom]

Well done Baby! Great to see some expansion at MAN. Hope the new route sells well.:D

[mathers_wales_uk]

Which route is getting the chop or reduced frequencies?

[aidoair]

Good news, though, as with any baby route announced lately and untill lufthansa give them a chance to get a couple extra birds, unfortunatley it means we're most likely going to see reduction in frequencys or a full withdrawel of another route. . ?

Does anyone happen to have the current line-up of WW aircraft schedules through the week from MAN for the summer?

[aidoair]

If anyone is interested, bmibaby are again having a Live Q&A session on their 'Tweeting' feed tommorrow (wednesday 3pm-4pm), this time with their managing director Julian Carr. I think he is definately one of the better MD's out there. He's really committed to the airline and obviously has a passion for the industry.

http://bit.ly/es0Qfu (http://bit.ly/es0Qfu) ''Julian will be taking to the @bmibaby_com Twitter feed for an hour to answer questions on bmibaby’s success in 2010, its future plans and budget travel.''

There may be a few Welsh members on here that might want to ask about the Cardiff base and it's future with the recent further reduction and cut backs in services for the summer with the aircraft moving over to BHD to operate Stansted.

[mathers_wales_uk]

He he i'll be around for that one thank you very much. I will let the guys over at Wales Air Network know too as i am sure they will be very interested ;-)

[Random Flyer]

Here are some quotes from Julian Carr, head of bmi baby regarding Cardiff.

We are focused on making sure the routes we fly meet demand, and there is stability in CWL now going forward

CWL works well for us in the summer, and this is our focus. It is a good base with loyal customers

[Random Flyer]

More highlights from today include what is on sale now is the full S11 schedule. The airline is now working on its W11/12 schedule.

Focus is to grow existing bases, no new bases are planned.

bmi baby airline is in talks with the new Castellon Airport while also considering flights to the Canary Island.

Going forward, the 737-800 is favourite to replace the current fleet.

[aidoair]

Going forward, the 737-800 is favourite to replace the current fleet.

Yep and despite obviously having a 737 fleet now, im surprised they wouldnt infact be looking at Airbus seeing as though it's the way it's big sister and big mother airlines have gone. I know in past twitter interviews that this has also been the case to look at newer 737 aircraft so sounds like they are finally on to it!

As for the 738, it will be a great aircraft for bmibaby, however it would be interesting to know if they would also be looking at the 73G aswell for the shorter/higher frequency routes such as UK domestics and AMS etc, where the 738 could be too big for them.

[Skipness One Echo]

Surely given Lufthansa and bmi both operating the A319 / A320 / A321 series, what would be the benefit in going with the B737-800.

[virginblue]

Apparently EMA-CGN chopped in March and EMA-MUC in May.

[CheekyVisual]

The trouble is when you upset your "loyal" customers, as baby have done over the past two years at CWL, they don't stay loyal. A quick example a friend of mine used to use baby twice a month (for the last 5 years !) to get to his place near ALC. Always just stumped up the fare (pretty un-low cost sometimes). Baby dropped the route completely for the winter. Guess what he's found BRS ! Looking forward through the summer he tells me the average baby CWL-ALC fare for his group is more than £100 extra for a return trip (taking all charges and extras into account) than the equivalent days with FR and Easy from BRS. Where in the past he would just have bitten the bullet and paid up the extra his forced winter from BRS has opened his eyes a bit and that extra £100 a time adds up to quite a lot over the year. He's now just going the cheapest way. Loyal customer - lost.

I know and respect JC and he obviously believes that high frequency domestics LON to BHD will make more money for his aircraft than CWL's buckets and spades (didn't for FR but that's another arguement). He may be right but I don't think the baby management have any idea the damage they've done to themselves in the CWL market.

[aidoair]

Apparently EMA-CGN chopped in March and EMA-MUC in May.

Not surprising although I thought MUC was doing well.

What I am surprised about however is no EMA or BHX-PRG route over the summer. With FR no longer operating services and EZY no longer flying from DSA the route looks like it could have been a winner for bmibaby?

I guess this is just down to lack of aircraft? Currently bmibaby operates MAN-PRG only after the winter schedules come to an end.

[OliWW]

So within 2 months, Julian Carr has totally once again changed the aspect of the business model... previously stating that he wanted to focus on Niche Markets... the classics were operating fine, and were most likely going to be replace with aircraft of a similar size (aka A319) and the fact that introducing new routes in Germany was the way forward... hmm... now it seems like they want to operate to the Canairy islands, which he previously stated to me wasn't possible because of the operating weight and thrust of its 733's... and the fact baby will not be even thinking of renewing its fleet until it at least makes a profit in 2012, I cannot see how the airline can possibly reach these destinations without spending more of its dosh on maintenance.

The whole reason baby was introduced was to fend of competition from Go, Easyjet and Ryanair... and the fact is, on many popular destinations it has just given way to Jet2, easyJet, Ryanair and Flybe, and seem more bothered about flying to destinations not served by them... there is a reason why they aren't served... so yes its the whole we could all see this coming once again... they will try and now survive by re-introducing those spanish routes... but the market for them has gone now, and has been taken over by other lcc's.

rant over...

[OltonPete]

OliWW

I think the Canaries would be from Cardiff and with the aircraft due to replace
KD if that happens. Well KD has not flown since 1/1/11 so assume there will be a replacement.

I can't imagine they would consider Canaries from BHX or MAN with the amount of competition and East Mids is not much better with FR covering this area.

Although Munich and Cologne are still in the early stages of development they did not start well and it seems a reasonable decision when they have little trouble selling the Med routes in summer.

Anyway there is nothing to say that Munich won't come back next winter but I am in the "no way Cologne" camp from the Midlands. It has just proved totally impossible from BHX and there was little to see much in the early EMA figures to change my mind.

I am still ****** that they withdrew from BHX-FCO, BCN, MAD & LIS with load factors between 65 and 90% year round but if they were making money they wouldn't have been dropped.

Pete

[aidoair]

now it seems like they want to operate to the Canairy islands, which he previously stated to me wasn't possible because of the operating weight and thrust of its 733's... and the fact baby will not be even thinking of renewing its fleet until it at least makes a profit in 2012

From the live session today he only said the routes would be something they would look into in the future, not that they are actually going to start them anytime soon because of its current fleet... He also said these routes could be potential winter routes for aircraft utilisation over the quieter period as someone pointed out less flying in the winter (just like almost all UK based LCCs)

Also as for the fleet, he stated they are about to start looking into it's future fleet renewal program with the 'current' favourite being the 738. That doesn't necessarily mean it will be the chosen aircraft. From other discussions and from the session today, any expansion won't be untill at least summer 2012.

They are taking things slowly which is sensible... the only negative thing with doing it this way is that other airlines around you can grow much quicker and take away any potential first opportunities for routes and services for example.

[Facelookbovvered]

The Meds and the year round domestic + AMS,CDG,JER I can understand,BHD was a good move from BFS but STN? CGN & MUC what's the thought process at work here?

If these routes are being dreamt up by baby staff then I suspect it will only be a matter of time before a more Germanic approach is introduced with Germanic management

What is the point in getting more 737 when every other part of the LH group is running Airbus product I don't think LH have any NG?

Where are they going with this.

[G-VCED]

Yes KD is going, a 300 is coming in to replace this. CGN suffered from low load factors so that isn't surprising.

WW need to find a way to make CWL more profitable in the winter, as it is very lucrative in the summer.

As for fleet renewal I heard its going to be more like 2014 in long term planning, and the size of the a/c will be around the B738 territory but of course no decision on manufacturer.

[SR71]

He's now just going the cheapest way. Loyal customer - lost.

I think there is some confusion here as to what the word loyal means. The above is a definition of the converse isn't it? He wasn't loyal, he was just using what he thought was the only option available. Now that he has found another, if he really was "loyal", he'd stick with the product he'd always used...

There is no loyalty in the LOCO market. That's why its called the LOCO market.

The expansions and contractions of the bmibaby fleet merely reflect the reality of macroeconomic challenges faced by the business and the decisions taken my management to mitigate them.

You're faced with the choice "Fly routes because 31 passengers in South Wales are really loyal customers" or "Go out of business": What would you do?

This isn't personal. Everybody understands you **** people off cancelling flights, changing schedules, flying at weird times etc etc

They (management) also understand other airlines not in the same situation might seek to take advantage of one's misfortunes.

But LH spent £250 million on bmi. The business has lost another £350 million in the last 2 years hasn't it? They have spent £XXX million restructuring. So lets call that £750 million for something that isn't making any money yet.

A sense of perspective is, perhaps, necessary when considering what an average summer might drag in at CWL...

[Mr A Tis]

I'm afraid I'm also not a BMI Baby customer anymore.
Too many chop & changes & a really basic product.
Charged to take bags then charged again to check them in.
The airline does rather need major surgery to bring it up to the standards of Germanwings.
If that is achieved, then maybe some of their previously "loyal" customers may come back, in the meantime, it's a definite no from me no matter where they fly from & to.

[INKJET]

It seems that 22kg allowance is now standard on bmibaby flights per their FAQ baggage section, the website hasn't caught up and the 22kg special offer says until the end of Jan. That's the benefit of airline competion I guess and in this case we have Jet2 to thank, I can't see Ryanair following suit tho?

Both MUC & CGN are also still in the drop down date menu until the end of he Summer, not sure if it will allow you to book them though?

[look you]

Just a tiny bit of trivia, if you pardon the pun. Baby can't re-equip with anything other than 737 without negotiating an agreement with the bmi mainline pilots to get around their scope clause.

[aidoair]

It seems that 22kg allowance is now standard on bmibaby flights per their FAQ baggage section, the website hasn't caught up and the 22kg special offer says until the end of Jan. That's the benefit of airline competion I guess and in this case we have Jet2 to thank, I can't see Ryanair following suit tho?

Both MUC & CGN are also still in the drop down date menu until the end of he Summer, not sure if it will allow you to book them though?


Regarding the baggage it still states for all new bookings made untill the end of January. However as you have seen, it will be good to see at the end of January whether or not they go back to their 18kg standard allowance or the 'book before end of Jan' is just marketing to help hurry bookings.

As for CGN & MUC, unfortunately despite them being in the timetables throughout the summer they do end in March and May respectively.

[jpthomas72]

Both MUC & CGN are also still in the drop down date menu until the end of he Summer, not sure if it will allow you to book them though? Come-on, this is easy to check, use the 31-day view and try to book e.g. May or September. Routes are canceled as mentioned here. This is such a farce I now believe WW should better close the whole shop sooner rather than later. They are so unpredictable, not just those routes, but also this announced and never-flown BHX-CGN, hit-and-miss on BHX-PRG, constant schedule changes on BHX-GVA, EMA-GVA etc etc. Let's see when LH's patience runs out. 4U have been very half-hearted about integrating with WW, e.g. they haven't offered connections via CGN, which is a big 4U hub, and they knew why. I find it very hard to think of a worse airline than WW, probably in all of the EU (please give me a name if you know one...), surely by far the worst in the LH family. Apologies for the rant...

[aidoair]

Come-on, this is easy to check, use the 31-day view and try to book e.g. May or September. Routes are canceled as mentioned here. This is such a farce I now believe WW should better close the whole shop sooner rather than later. They are so unpredictable, not just those routes, but also this announced and never-flown BHX-CGN, hit-and-miss on BHX-PRG, constant schedule changes on BHX-GVA, EMA-GVA etc etc. Let's see when LH's patience runs out. 4U have been very half-hearted about integrating with WW, e.g. they haven't offered connections via CGN, which is a big 4U hub, and they knew why. I find it very hard to think of a worse airline than WW, probably in all of the EU (please give me a name if you know one...), surely by far the worst in the LH family. Apologies for the rant...

Clearly they have annoyed you about something but it's a good job thousands others don't agree. Despite the annoying chopping and dropping of routes and frequencys, they do actually now have a vision, much clearer than say 2-3 years ago. Obviously this is much to do with the help of LH and the whole restructuring of the bmi group. If they had more aircraft I feel there wouldn't be as much of this chopping of routes. They do have to focus on routes that make them money quickly with the small fleet they have unfortunately rather than giving routes such as MUC a longer chance and letting them grow.

[INKJET]

The routes menu shows CGN&MUC as on sale through out the Summer in the drop down dates. My point here is that any prospective punter who doesn't spend his or her life on Pprune and looking at the routes at the planning stage of a trip would be forgiven for the belief that the flights are planned to operate on these dates which run through to October, they will be rather p****d off then to discover they can't book the flights, other seasonal routes such as MAH & IBZ have start and finsh dates

Aidoair

The website FAQ is very clear that all bookings after the 5th of Jan get 22kg standard, it's only the special offer 1 2 3 tab on the front page that says it ends on the 31st so which is it? It's not difficult is it?

[aidoair]

It's not difficult is it?

Regardless what it says in the FAQs, in the flight booking terms and conditions it states very clearly ''Passengers who purchase baggage will receive 22kg standard baggage allowance.This applies to new bookings only and is valid for bookings made until 31st January 2011''.

What I was trying to say is that it could be a bit of PR spin to increase bookings with baggage in January. (usually summer holidays)

They may then announce it will be their standard baggage allowance for all future bookings. I guess we will have to wait and see, only 3 days left untill the end of the offer anyway. If this does however become the standard allowance then it will be a good thing as they are the most expensive airline to check-in bags with, even compared to Ryanair!

[Mr A Tis]

Whether its 18kg, 20kg or 22kg it's a rip off.
£13.99 each way for a checked bag PLUS an unavoidable £7 each way fee to check the bag in. That fee is unavoidable if you have a bag.
Why can't they be honest and say bags are £20.99 each way. Still a rip off, but more honest & transparent. Bad Baby :=

[AP1995]

BMI BABY have WFU one of the 737-500 but they are getting one of thomson 737-300

[aidoair]

Both G-THOL & G-THOP are leaving the TOM fleet by this summer. One is onwards to LS so guess it could be either.

Regards to the 735 leaving bmibaby. I always assumed these 3 aircraft were actually owned by the group rather than leased? I guess not or was it soon due a major check?

[SR71]

Just a tiny bit of trivia, if you pardon the pun. Baby can't re-equip with anything other than 737 without negotiating an agreement with the bmi mainline pilots to get around their scope clause.

If a small section of people in the bmi section of the Group that has lost £XXX million in the last how many years think that they can hold Lufthansa's better intentions for their business hostage, by virtue of a scope clause, I think they're deluded...especially when they're rocking up on baby's doorstep with their new 320's!

What a stroke of luck there isn't a clause prohibiting such a move which goes to ensure the ongoing viability of that part of the operation?

:E

The future of the bmi Group is not going to be best served by each employee group harking back to defunct agreements that are long past their sell-by date.

:\

[OliWW]

I believe it to be ex GoFly, EasyJet and Thomson G-THOL coming to bmibaby, while G-THOP goes to Jet2...

G-BVKD which is the 735 which is leaving is owned and leased by Guggenheim Aviation Investment Fund

G-BVKB and G-BVZE are owned and leased by AWAS, should be in the fleet for at least the next 12 months

[aidoair]

I believe it to be ex GoFly, EasyJet and Thomson G-THOL coming to bmibaby, while G-THOP goes to Jet2...

G-BVKD which is the 735 which is leaving is owned and leased by Guggenheim Aviation Investment Fund

G-BVKB and G-BVZE are owned and leased by AWAS, should be in the fleet for at least the next 12 months

Cheers, G-THOL has been a good little bird at TOM at least for the past couple of summer seasons. Hope she's as good for baby!

[G-VCED]

G-THOL, youngest aircraft baby will have, by around a year.

G-OGBD and G-TOYD have still got fabric interiors I get the feeling these will be changed soon as I'm under the impression their future in the fleet is secure for now?

[OliWW]

I'd have expected a number of the fleet to have been painted in the new livery by now, the new 733 will obviously be when its delivered, but YH and YG were both surpose to be painted before xmas...

[sjm]

SR71,

Couldn't have put it better myself, what world are these people living in?:ugh::ugh: Its a whole new game these days!


Cheese and beer my good man, cheese and beer!

lookyou, would that be the same scope clause that wont allow the 757's in?:}

[Little Blue]

Well said, bouncy !!:ok:

[INKJET]

I see baby have at last gone to tax & airport charges inclusive pricing at the first point you start to make a booking, there is still the check in fee of £14:00 for all hold luggage and cc fee's but at least it's a step in the right direction and brings it into line with bmi group policy.

22kg luggage seems to be standard now for all bookings plus you can have 5 bags and pool your allowance with others travelling with you, for it was this that seemed to have resulted in 100 pax being off loaded in ACE with FR

The break down of airport fee's makes interesting reading

[Jamie2k9]

for it was this that seemed to have resulted in 100 pax being off loaded in ACE with FR



Some of the hard baggage the group wouldn't fit into the racks provided at the gate and the group payed for the extra baggage but while on the aircraft they became disruptive to crew.

[G-VCED]

G-TOYK has come back from a service with the livery that is applied to G-BVKB, expect this time the 'tiny' is wearing swimwear and a snorkel with the tagline "jump in, baby".

[gate 22]

So if the JAN passenger figures are correct, the WW move to BHD has been a total failure - how long will they stay there and lose money?!!!

[planenut321]

Anyone know how the CWL-BHD figures have been? With BE on their own the route was having increasing loads month on month.

[bmi expat]

Gate 22, that's a bit of a sweeping statement. What exactly are you basing your conclusion of total failure on?

[gate 22]

Gate 22, that's a bit of a sweeping statement. What exactly are you basing your conclusion of total failure on?


I take it back. The figures for BHD give the correct total overall for the month, which I thought would be right. The problem is that the figures shown on the domestic route stats didn't include the WW figures. So 'total failure' was based on inaccurate analysis by me.

[pamann]

Sorry have I missed something or is there some rumour that baby are setting up base at Stansted?

[LGS6753]

Pamann..

Baby are opening a route from Belfast to Stansted with a Belfast-based aircraft at the end of March.
When it fails, as I expect it will, they will drop it. I don't think Baby would set up a base at STN, they are none too good against strong competition, and at STN they are up against the strongest (FR & EZY).

[pamann]

Erm... I know they are starting up shop on the BHD-STN route that is not however what I asked.

There is however a lot of talk about STN in this thread so was asking the question as per my previous post.

You obviously speak (or type) with a tone that disagrees with baby @ STN but that is not what I am asking thank you.

[pwalhx]

I believe the only talk of a Stansted base is on here, and is merely speculative

[pamann]

Thank you pwalhx.

[sealink]

less of the negativity . . . . it will not be dropped . . . . forward bookings very strong. do you want to see success on this baby route?

[ib26uk]

Does anybody know when bmibaby will release their schedules for Birmingham for November onwards?

I`m one of those super organised people who likes to book WELL in advance - I`m going to go to the MTV Europe Music Awards in Belfast !!

[Facelookbovvered]

I think they went very early last year? mid March rings a bell, but talk of bigger thrust ratings suggest new winter routes so it may delay it, most loco have their winter program on sale by mid late April to early May

Travelling from BHX to BHD is unlikely to change in terms of times and BE will still be on the route

[BOAC4ME]

Maybe it's just me but if I was a route analyst or network planner this route would possibly be the furthest thing from my mind, don't see a necessity for it personally and without any bias either way my money would be on six months max for operation.

[dublindispatch]

Yeah its a kinda curve ball route alright.

[ALLMCC]

Well FR seemed to do OK on it so why not Baby?

[Skipness One Echo]

Well FR seemed to do OK on it so why not Baby?

Cost base for one. Also Ryanair have a consistently profitable and ruthless business plan. BMI Baby have the "airliners.net pateneted magic dartboard of route planning".

[Copenhagen]

FR did so well on it that they no longer operate the route. FR have fuel efficient aircraft.

[BOAC4ME]

As much as FR never have been and never will be my cup of tea, ethos wise, they unquestionably do LC better than most, and therefore have the nous to make pretty much anything work. Baby on the other hand, well, the complete reverse in true of them in my mind, I actually like many aspects of the Airline, however they don't seem to make too many things work well, unfortunately for them I would fear that Lufthansa somewhat agree.

[ravfooty]

A lot of nonsense and unfounded speculation in this discussion!
However one supposed fact about the Ryanair vs bmibaby Belfast saga is that Ryanair pulled out of Belfast in a typical toys out of the pram dispute with the airport over the proposed runway extension. Not because they weren't making money on the route - which would indicate there's no reason why the route can't be profitable for bmibaby.

That is of course if that was the real reason and not an excuse to get out without losing face. BAA airport fees are good for that....

[Facelookbovvered]

Well everyone at BHD and WW seem to be happy with the change of airport with pax numbers up significantly on both BHX & EMA.

STN is an all new ball game, WW are more or less unknown at STN and will not be the first people think of in that part of the country when wishing to fly to NI, i would expect early sales to be stronger outbound from NI in a morning and the reverse in an afternoon.

I don't think it will be price sensitive in FR terms so if they can get the volume up to mid 80+ i suspect they will be happy.

Not sure where BOAC4ME is coming from, one is a very profitable low service airline with 300 aircraft all over Europe (many parked) the other is probably break even at best low service airline with 12 aircraft + 2 summer aircraft.

It seems to be common currency that bmi proper is still burning cash, so if WW is more or less break even then its probably good for forward cash flow and paying a share of Toad Hall.

The move to BHD probably required bmi (WW) to comimit an aircraft to STN as part of the deal to bring pax numbers back up following FR going walkies, if so then i expect the airport charges to WW will be very low for the first 6-12 months, but i have to agree STN was not obvious move for WW in terms of route planning, sometime you have to run a route at a loss! part of the big picture? if any one knows what it is please tell:confused::confused::confused:

[daz211]

STN-NCL would be a good move for baby now that EZY have decided to pull the route... just a thought though.

[Cazza_fly]

Well it's just a few days away now untill the first flights between Belfast City BHD and London Stansted start! If the performance of EMA, BHX and even MAN and CWL have anything to go by in terms of increase in load factors since the move from BFS then STN should be on to a winner too!

I do have to agree with Facelookbovvered, in that most likely the BHD to STN market will be greater than the opposite STN to BHD market, mainly due to the fact that baby is better known in NI, though I guess time will tell on this...

Just out of interest, has anyone living in the Stansted/London area seen or heard much of any adverts regarding the new service?

Cheers!

[mutleyshriek]

Man Bhx and Cwl still underperforming with no great increase in pax numbers.Man will take a very bit hit very very soon....

[Cazza_fly]

Man Bhx and Cwl still underperforming with no great increase in pax numbers.Man will take a very bit hit very very soon....


I guess thats a hint on EZY moving in on the BFS. In my opinion I dont see what EZY will/would achieve out of this? Other than to go head to head with two other carriers (regardless of which Belfast airport) and also there own market share on the LPL-BFS.

[mutleyshriek]

Lpl and Man are two very different markets.

[Cazza_fly]

Man Bhx and Cwl still underperforming with no great increase in pax numbers.Man will take a very bit hit very very soon....

When you say under performing, in what field do you mean and where do you get your sources? As you can see from various stats around the web indeed CAA, there has been an increase in pax using bmibaby to BHD rather than its services to BFS from both MAN & BHX, ok slight increases but an increase non the less and! As for EMA despite also again operating head to head with Flybe this has seen a significant increase in pax. As for CWL i will admit i havn't personally seen stats for this and just taking it from what I have heard.

bmibaby are clearly comitted to their Northern Ireland operation, regardless of which airport they fly to. They've always stook it out even when head to head with ryanair and its 1p flights! So low pax number with WW on its Belfast routes can't have huge impact on takings?

[G-APDK]

I live 15 minutes from STN and have not seen any local TV, or heard any local radio, ads. That doesn't mean however there haven't been any!

I am booked to go STN-BFS-STN in May so will sample a WWW service for the first time. So far not over impressed, as the "add-ons" to the advertsied flight price were considerably higher than I expected and the flight times have been changed.

I hope WWW are sucessful from STN because there further potental routes from STN which WWW may wish to try e.g. Frankfurt,

[wanna_be_there]

Is time running out for WW at MAN?

Last year, Julian Carr said it would like to expand MAN with more niche city routes, but as seen as its taking WW so long to do something with MAN, they are loosing ground, and fast.

Where could WW go at MAN now?

MAN-Belfast is about to be subject to the orange invasion, they were priced off MAN-AGP and MAN-ALC.
LIS could be jepordised too, as TP are now going to go 6 weekly, with some faily competative prices.

City route wise, they have lost a chance to serve MAN-SXF and MAN-MAD. Both routes were unserved for 2+ years, screaming out for someone to serve it, but now, there are 2 carriers on MAN-MAD, and easyjet ones on MAN-SXF.

So, whats left?

Mid Europe:
-BTS (Or VIE),
-maybe the smaller german cities like Bremen, Nuremburg or Leipzig?

Spain:
-Have a good chance to jump on BCN before easyjet eventually go for it. Only a daily ZB, so WW could compliment with an AM flight.
-Valencia/seville, but, a risk of RYR jumping in, as they have stated Med cities will be expanded from MAN, and both are RYR bases.

Portugal:
-maybe move their 2xweekly LIS to OPO?

Eastern Europe:
-WAW/KTW/KRK crying out for a MAN service
-VNO/RIX/TLL also unserved at MAN

Northern africa:
-TUN/CAS/ALG (ok, now im just talking crazy talk!)

But, back to the origional question, with just 2 based aircraft, and with red/orange/blue building up on MAN, is there room for a baby?

[pamann]

I hope WWW are sucessful from STN because there further potental routes from STN which WWW may wish to try e.g. Frankfurt

I'm all for new routes/airlines at STN, but really? Frankfurt? Did you just pluck that one out of a hat :confused:

[DomyDom]

Wana be there,

Your post is interesting and I agree with much of the sentiments in it. While delighted by the Monpellier route from MAN, that to have missed Madrid and Berlin, while only providing Verona from East Midlands did appear to be a perculiar stragegy. I remember Julian Carr making his grand statement about expanding niche routes from Manchester however at the time I thought this never really seemed plausible given baby chopping and changing routes as they were.

I wish baby well as they were the first LCC at MAN and have stayed at MAN through thick and thin, as well as offering some interesting french routes and keeping LIS just about alive from MAN. They also have their fans and I really think with Lufthasa's backing and some prompt decision making that they could develop some interesting routes from MAN to e.g. Oporto, Asturias, Granada, Seville as well as Verona etc. and make some money. I would like to see some targeted further expansion at MAN along the lines of MON as I think that the niche route strategy if actullay implemented will provide a future.

Just my thoughts,

DomyDom

[Mr A Tis]

Well it's good to see BMI back on its feet and having some kind of direction once again. However, this does not appear to have materialised at Baby yet.
There was the announcement that Baby was to return it's attention to MAN,but looks like it's changed again with the opening up of Stansted.
As SLF, my perception is it still appears that there remains no definitive strategy and I'd be concerened that it's still chop and change at Baby. Maybe there is a clear plan ahead, if there is, I don't think it's being communicated well to customers.
Many of the add on charges are OTT. What grinds my gears is that on top of the baggage charge is a compulsory check in fee, which can't be avoided if you pay for a bag.

[Copenhagen]

A quick read of the Lufthansa group annual report will show you exactly where Manchester fits into the Bmibaby plans:


Lufthansa Annual Report 2010 - British Midland (http://reports.lufthansa.com/2010/ar/groupmanagementreport/businesssegmentperformance/passengerairlinegroup/britishmidland.html?cat=m)

With 14 aircraft from the Boeing 737 family, bmibaby operates as a low-cost airline, primarily from East Midlands airport and Birmingham airport, where it has a strong market presence. In 2010 flights from East Midlands to Germany were also added to the route network.

No mention of Manchester at all.

Also

Bmi Revenue = €896m
Bmi Operating loss - €145m

[ETOPS]

What grinds my gears is that on top of the baggage charge is a compulsory check in fee, which can't be avoided if you pay for a bag.

Funny thing, human nature. If the fare for your flight started at a higher level and there was a compulsory discount for on-line check in would you feel any better, even though you paid exactly the same?

[airhumberside]

bmi baby do seem rather vunerable at MAN. Belfast is seeing fierce competition, and it would only take Easyjet, Jet 2 and/or Flybe to start taking an interest in BOD, TLS or some other French flying and bmi baby would be under huge competitive pressure

What have bmi baby got at MAN that the competition hasn't? Flybe has connections, and smaller aircraft for frequency. EZY/BE/LS/ZB all have economies of scale from a larger base. LS/ZB and now EZY have package holiday options. EZY/LS/ZB have longer range aircraft opening up a wider range of possible destinations. And thats ignoring FR potentially adding more flights into MAN

[Mr A Tis]

Copenhagen

Yes, I couldn't agree more with you, the annual report does not mention Manchester. Yet it was the Baby boss who did mention Manchester = confusing strategy.

ETOPS
I kind of understand what you are saying, but I have to say Baby ain't cheap to start with. On the MAN-LIS nearly always much cheaper to fly TAP & you get bags etc included.

[Little Blue]

I'm ex-baby staff, now working for easy, and it saddens me deeply to say that I believe we could help to nail the coffin for my ex-colleagues at MAN.
I really hope that I'm wrong, but I don't see where any expansion at MAN could come from.
Tinytown/Hastings House.....prove me wrong, please !:(

[planenut321]

Does everyone seem to forget the CWL isn't mentioned in the report? Obviously BHX and EMA are the way forward for WW. They have stated that CWL is an important base but yet with CWL being down to 1 based this summer this seems unlikely. Although JC mentioned the Canaries were a possibility for CWL especially with G-THOL/P entering the fleet.

[Ringwayman]

Have people overlooked the word that's being used in the report is "primarily"? If most aircraft are based out of BHX and EMA, then it shouldn't be of any concern that neither MAN nor CWL is mentioned but using "primarily" hints at airports away from the two that have been mentioned.

[Copenhagen]

Words in the Lufthansa report are very carefully chosen. The cities mentioned are where WW will have primary focus. Manchester and Cardiff will have a secondary focus.

Just like WW was born to protect BD fortress EMA from go! Flybe have a similar protect at all costs attitude to belfast city - go back and look at other contenders there - such as AB airlines. They should have stayed at INTL - two low cost carriers competing on the same airport pairs ensure that neither will make money - flybe is stronger and has historic reasons to ensure they dont lose out at BHD, just like WW at EMA.

Also interesting is that the only part of the bmi group to be mentioned as having a positive financial contribution to the company was BMIr charter.

[mutleyshriek]

As the big brother is being slowly intergrated into the Lufthansa group im afraid its gonna be Bye Bye Baby...just a thought but charging for bags and then charging to check the said bags in,well slf are gonna wise up to that and in no way can they compete with Ezy on Stanstead and Manchester to Belfast.