Bmibaby

[OltonPete]

Some new reductions and it is not looking good

BHX-EDI on Wednesdays are no longer bookable and Thursday
is down to one daily from the winter schedule except Christmas.

BHX - GLA also cut to one daily on Wednesday and Thursday.

Although trade shows have reduced significantly at the NEC
Wednesday is still a reasonable business day even more so
than Fridays when most shows have finished.

It seems just aiming for the casual/leisure traveller.

BHX-BFS seems to remain twice daily and three on Thursdays
and Fridays.

Pete

[Beeflightyear]

Just had an email 1 1/2 hours ago from BMI Baby saying our flights to Alicante over the Christmas period has been cancelled, our dates were the 20th December to the 30th December. I knew they were cutting back over winter but believed the December flights were ok, obviously not.

Lookily I have rebooked with Easyjet and the flights were cheaper :) than with BMI Baby on the same dates and within 10 mins of departure.

[aidoair]

Further reductions on the timetable this morning showing a cut in the morning AMS departure on TUE, WED and THU leaving the just the afternoon. Not that good if catering for the business traveller...
Does anyone know how successful the route has been overall so far (in terms of load factor at least) ?

On most days it looks as if the base could run on two based aircraft for most of the winter season, was that the case anyway ?




Cheers :ok:

[CheekyVisual]

I wouldn't worry too much until they start chopping the summer programme. The winter is looking bleak but if the summer starts to look bleak too then start worrying and in a big way unless you work for someone else ! The EMA megabase may yet save the day ! Unless, that is, you like MAN, BHX or CWL as somewhere to fly from or work ! The German silence is becoming thunderous.

[INKJET]

I like wouldn't worry about the winter culling, few use baby for there and back on the same day to AMS and the loads have been OK

I wouldn't expect anything new from the new management until the Wolf lands on the 1st of November.

The first 737 hand back is under way with another to follow shortly, still no news on extending lease's or LH 737 classic's a few rumours doing the rounds now about some (5) 319 joining the fleet, but from where? and who will be flying them (mainline crews?) ( Germanwings on behalf of Baby?) or baby 737 crews type conversion.

Looks like pay deal part 3 is a dead duck (your lucky to have a job seems to be the line) and if you don't like it you can help NT fill the vending machines

[mathers_wales_uk]

Obviously if the routes are not selling then why operate the flights. AMS has not been operated from CWL in over a year.

On most days of the week CWL only have 3 flights a day EDI x 2 and BFS except for weekends when there is a few internationals.

Could WW be looking at chartering aircraft out etc? Well it could be something to consider if aircraft are sat on the ground all day.

There is no need to waste money especially in the current climate so a good decision as long as the summer shedules at all 4 bases are not culled.

[CheekyVisual]

Can't see there's any money for setting up a new fleet within baby. Buses would be externally crewed from a FD perspective anyway. Don't know where that would leave everyone legally though if mainline crews displaced baby crews at established bases especially as that would inevitably involve significant redundancies within baby.

If I'm honest I can't believe LH will hand over any aircraft or allow baby to renogotiate leases unless they get them for nothing. I don't want to start winding anyone up and I know nothing (as you can tell) and this is based on no rumour I have heard just the hard nosed business facts as I see them. Baby makes a loss, new aircraft will not make it make a profit, reducing the fleet will slightly cut the loss, the company is worth nothing. Now with all that in mind if you were German and had no loyalty to anything but cash what would you do. Another bad Christams for some I am guessing if those aircraft have already "gone". I really hope I'm wrong.

[EGCC4284]

i have heard from a friend at another airline that baby plan on pulling out of brum this winter? Is this to release the aircraft for the EMA Meg base. I think MAN have also lost one, so are the others going back to the lease company?

Anyone know what the future fleet size plans are?

[Centre cities]

Jusy my opinion but all eggs in a EMA megabase, i dont think that will work. Mega base = drawing passengers from far and wide. The baby brand is not an Easyjet or Ryanair brand. I just dont think it has a cat in hells chance of surviving if that happens. Main routes fine, marginal routes forget it.


Centre cities

[aidoair]

The first 737 hand back is under way with another to follow shortly, still no news on extending lease's or LH 737 classic's a few rumours doing the rounds now about some (5) 319 joining the fleet, but from where? and who will be flying them (mainline crews?) ( Germanwings on behalf of Baby?) or baby 737 crews type conversion.

To be honest the A319 rumour doesn't sound too unrealistic. If at least two 737 aircraft are ending leases over the winter but an extra 3 are needed for next summers schedules (at least at the time of release of new routes) then this could work out well, keeping capacity the same elsewhere. While it probably would be better to just replace them with 733's for fleet commonality and training purposes, it may be cheaper and easier if they use some of bmi's A319s like they have in the past. A rumour a not too long ago, whether on here or not i can't now find but didn't bmi want to concentrate on a A320/321 fleet at LHR?

[xtypeman]

Why close your largest operating base eh? Yes relocate from your smaller bases makes sense. Re-schedule to make better fleet utlisation to cover aircraft capacity needs. Use Airbus capacity to fill MAN requirements.

[CheekyVisual]

Any rumours flying around are just that. No one in the whole of the bmi universe knows what the Germans are going to say until they say it. The current culling of flights is simply to stem the losses this winter which is apparently looking really tough, not just for baby but the whole industry. The only speculation worthwhile is when the Germans will break their silence and will there then be some kind of Chamberlainesc broadcast from Tiny Town passing on the "good" (heavy sarcasm cos it ain't going to be) news.

[RhysD]

The first 737 hand back is under way with another to follow shortly, still no news on extending lease's or LH 737 classic's a few rumours doing the rounds now about some (5) 319 joining the fleet, but from where? and who will be flying them (mainline crews?) ( Germanwings on behalf of Baby?) or baby 737 crews type conversion.



Have had a look at the LHR short-haul schedules for W09 and it appears that only 7 A319s are required. Along with the 2 aircraft operating Malpensa and Tegel routes for Lufthansa, this totals 9 aircraft out of a fleet of 11. The remaining 2 could potentially be a possibility for baby.

Aside: the utilization of the 7 aircraft isn't great with some spending up to two hours at LHR in between flights.

[bmibaby319]

ah thanks for the info on the flying bill boards!

[CheekyVisual]

The Cardiff thread claims the "way forward" announcement is tomorrow. Can anyone back that up ? or better still leak it !

[bmibaby319]

Thos could be intresting!!

[Flightrider]

Lufthansa has a results announcement due tomorrow to the markets, and there is a general expectation that this will contain some information about bmi, if only to disclose the full extent of current losses. It may - or equally may not - include something about its future strategy for bmi. One would think that the worse the losses are, the more likely it is to be forced to set out a future strategy to retain market confidence that it is doing something to dig itself out of the abyss. Will have to wait and see, but there are no guarantees that tomorrow will bring any news of great importance.

[speedy688]

Meeting on the 4th Nov with union reps, Balpa & lufty regarding future of bmibaby. Its that time of year again!

[Mod Kit]

Adhoc Release pursuant to §15 of the Securities Trading Act (WpHG)
Against the background of a persistently difficult environment characterised by continuing demand and price weakness the Lufthansa Group generated revenue of EUR 16.2bn (-13.2 per cent) in the first nine months of 2009.

The achieved operating profit of EUR 226m (previous year: EUR 954m) includes also first-time earnings contributions from Austrian Airlines and British Midland totalling EUR 28m as well as earnings from the reversal of a badwill as a result of the initial consolidation of Austrian Airlines (EUR 61m). The net loss for the period was EUR -32m (previous year: net profit of EUR 529m). Last year's figures have been adjusted in line with measurement changes under IFRIC 13.

The Lufthansa Group's earnings continue to be subject to very considerable risks as a result of volume and price trends and renewed oil price increases. A sharp drop in revenue and continued pressure on earnings is therefore expected for the full year. Negative earnings contributions are also anticipated from the new companies in the airline group over the months ahead. Business performance in the fourth quarter will therefore be a deciding factor in whether these factors can be successfully compensated for and the goal of a positive operating result for the now expanded Group can still be achieved.

Further details and the complete interim report will be published by Lufthansa on 29 October 2009. The information will be available on the internet from 8.00 a.m. CET at Lufthansa -Investor Relations (http://www.lufthansa.com/investor-relations).

[Hudson Bay]

Is the meeting with just baby or is it with the rest of the group?

[speedy688]

Just baby apparently.

[North Stand Tier3]

Under impression everyone finds out Weds

Right, I'll get me coat...

[0523 cov man]

put your coat back in office if at bhx give it to call 100 .
0523 cov man

[Centre cities]

put your coat back in office if at bhx give it to call 100 .
0523 cov man

I take it that the criptic clue here is BHX closedown aircraft to EMA

Centre cities

[CheekyVisual]

Have it on good authority that even in the worst case scenario envisaged by tiny town no bases will actually close (although the real worse case is something they probably haven't dared think about !). Shrinkage and movement is probably unavoidable. If the unions have been "invited" it's definately not good news all round.

On the other topic I suspect Regional and Mainline will both get their unions "invited" round for a chat without tea and biscuits pretty soon. Just figure Baby is the easiest of the three to sort out quickly, for all the wrong reasons, so they go first.

[bmibaby319]

Hey this topic has probaly been posted in this thread but still.
Lufy could give baby some mainline A319/A320's even if there 10 Year old they probaly do baby fine. Probaly do somthing soon.

[bmibaby319]

Acording to the Airfleets website bmibaby 737 G-TOYB Has been stored any News on this

[Hudson Bay]

G-TOYB has been withdrawn from service. Not being replaced. Fleet down to 16 aircraft.

[speedy688]

So there's 5 FOs & 5 Capts out the door straight away, or am I just being pessimistic? Hope I'm wrong and there is some fleet replacement on the cards.

[bmibaby319]

Wheres G-TOYB Being Stored?
That was Cardiff's main baby

[mathers_wales_uk]

By what has been said GTOYB has left the fleet and been returned to the leasing company.

No aircraft really is a main aircraft at CWL. There are aircraft that stay at CWL for a while then when it's required at EMA for maintenance or checks etc which can't be done at CWL same aso other bases they will either swap down route or when the rescue aircraft comes into cover the delays the tech aircraft will be positioned out.

It does seem that the same aircraft remains at CWL for a while but they can alternate quite freqently if theres a lot of tech issues.

[bmibaby319]

Oh is that where the Mantinance base to bmi own it or bmibaby rent it?

[North Stand Tier3]

TOYB due to go back Mar/Apr. Just coming off C check & with reduced winter flying makes financial sense to store. It can then be prepped for handback so there is no lease overrun with the hefty penalty charges that incurs. Still no confirmation which a/c will definitely go back from Baby (think most can guess). All will be clearer next Weds

You ain't seen me right.........

[Hudson Bay]

3 Aircraft in total will leave the fleet shortly. YB has already gone and there is no intention for them to be replaced.

Management have tried to secure their future by moving another 3 A/C to East Mids. This is a short sighted exercise and it is only time before the company ceases to exist. A real shame but that's business. The management have failed in a big way, they have wasted valuable resources on an abundance of training Captains, redundancy payments, out of court settlements, multiple crew rooms and excess middle management.

I find it shocking what the management have done. Yet Again 2 months before Christmas. One director informing crew they will know if they have a job next Wednesday. Where is your morality? Oh I forgot it's business.

bmi = bulls__t Management and Incompetence

[sjm]

your tune is very different to last year hudson you actually seem concerned this time.
I seem to remember last time it was a case of im alright jack!!!!!:=

On another note, if and its a big IF all three are going and not to be replaced and an increase of three aircraft at EMA would effectively mean a complete base gone?:sad:

As a potential victim of the last cut backs I once again fear for mine and all my colleagues futures. time will tell.:*

Merry xmas from NT and lufty:mad:

[Looker]

These are indeed uncertain times but I wonder why people need to put the worst possible spin on events - Wednesday is a few days away and we'll know then what lies ahead. Until then anything else is just pure speculation - Hudson's track record to date is far from perfect and the sky hasn't yet fallen in!

[conti onepass]

guys im about to a manchester to prague flight in december, should i hold fire.

[RoyHudd]

No. At worst you'll be re-booked with LH via some kraut city.

[bmibaby319]

Dont be Silly Guys, They Wont be gone
Realy if they are Strugling They would be cutting there fleet. Does anybody no the reg of the next planes to go or is it the -500 Models?

[Facelookbovvered]

Look at the know facts

LH said on Thursday that they are seeking to delay or defer the delivery of new aircraft in the period 2010-2013

baby have aircraft coming to the end of their lease and there are no reports that i have seen on here to suggest that they will be extended

Their current on sale Summer 2010 program including new routes from EMA less ALC/AGP chopped from MAN will require more than the 17 aircraft they operated this Summer

The cross web links with Germanwings/baby suggests an on going plan

All the other UK loco's other than baby reported positive earning in their last year Ryanair/Easyjet/Flybe/Jet2/Globespan

Most employee's from baby seem to think it a lean business with little in the way of fat to cut,its ticket prices are far from cheap its load factor are reported to be high, so that leaves lease costs? or fuel

options

Full merger with Germanwing: unlikely the brand GW is unknown in babys market place

Germanwing to operate baby flights on behalf of baby: unlikely as that would be more expensive than doing it themselves.

Wind down the business: why? it would loose more and more money with each chop and staff turnover would go through the roof as soon as/when the market picks up

Close a base CWL? unlikely the return should be good being only Loco in town and BRS is a haul with bridge fee's to pay

MAN? unlikley, bmi/regional/LH/SN/GW all operate through there

EMA? nope just launched a raft of new routes

That leave BHX? 38 miles down the road and they could do what Easy have tried when closing EMA in offer pax's MAN/STN ie switch departure airport to EMA

The bigger question is what about the rest of the group

Regional? i think this will be sold to Flybe from Jan the 1st with the ERJ out LHR this will allow wholesale changes in mainline without getting bogged down in the scope clause issue, some unwanted slots will be sold these are still worth a fortune with an econmic recovery around the corner and R3 looking less liklely by the day

If baby get to see the end of 2010 (50/50) then i think it will get rolled into GW probably keeping the brand but run from of CGN

All speculation agreed, but one thing is certain it won't/can't stay as it is, the Wolf is at the door, i hope they don't throw the baby out with the dishwater

[IB4138]

According to Jethro's, TOYC now withdrawn from service.

[bmibaby319]

G-TOYC Went ages ago i have never even seen it ive seen all baby 737 apart from G-TOYI And G-TOYC. bmibaby have high load factors when i checked a flybe flight it only had 2 Pasengers onobard!! My Edinbrugh flight back only had 2 Seats left. Most Peeps that i have met have traveled with baby.
Germanwings can go away we dont want any German Low-cost Airlines at my Airport!
BHX Has got to go!! EMA Is Down the road!!
But they Probaly will go with GW As long as the brand stays the same il be happy.
And for the missing Aircraft?? Last year bmi lent baby there mainline fleet was it leased from them?? bmi may lend baby there mainline fleet?

[OltonPete]

bmibaby319

You will find life hard on this forum unless you at least deal in some facts.

G-TOYC has not operated for whole week! It flew Faro -East Mids on 24/10 and then positioned to Budapest on 25/10.

What I suspect you mean it has not visited Cardiff for a while as indeed
acarsd confirms that it did not operate at CWL during October. Life does not begin and end in Cardiff, I think!!!!!!!!!!!!

Wednesday probably will bring some disruption for BHX based staff if half the rumours are true and my thoughts are with them. Comments such as "BHX Has got to go" will no doubt cheer them up no end!!!

Pete

[CheekyVisual]

Haven't heard anything that suggests that any leases are to be renegotiated or replacement aircraft sourced. In fact management have gone to ground the last week or so which is the best indication of the way this is going.

The rumour of LH classics coming to the rescue is hope over expectation. I don't like to be the profit of doom but I think Hudson is pretty much spot on. Not cos I know but because if it was my money p***** out the door that's what I'd do. I'd shut it down as quickly and as cheaply as I could and chopping the leases as they end is the easiest and cheapest way. I'd also chop Tiny Town now as there is no point having all that back up for so few aircraft and such a small operation. I'm sure some part of LH could do the same work, or a small portacabin would suffice.

Unfortunately we are left in the position that Baby is worth nothing, it loses money and would need a massive investment to turn round and GW doesnt want it. No presents for the family this Christmas I fancy !

[ZeBedie]

I wonder what sort of contract is in place for TV advertising? That may have some bearing on LH plans?

[Ian Brooks]

They seem to sponsor the weather on ITV midlands and Northwest regions

Ian

[OliWW]

Didn't G-TOYC, YI and G-ODSK all go to Budapest last year for Maintenance, could just be this? It would make sense to get rid of either G-TOYA or G-TOYC as they are some of the older B733 fleet, apart from G-OBMP

[IB4138]

TOYC is noted as withdrawn from use 24 October. To Budapest the following day, as already stated.

[jam8080]

Slighlty off thread but TOYA,B,C,D are the only members of the 300 fleet to have had no internal cosmetic work done on them. All the other fleet are now in leather seats, hence would lead me to belive that A and D are soon to leave.

G-OBMP does however continue to be in the mis-match of seats but have a feeling thats its owned and not leased. So not sure why not refitted.

Another worrying time for all staff again, and yet again no communication from Managment, Tiny Town, BMI or LH. Lets see what Wed's brings, good luck everyone.

[queenvic]

just wondering who owns the aircraft that have been leased?

as all mainline aircraft being leased are also being returned some of which are leased from SMB.

[bmibaby319]

They Also Sponsor the Welsh Wheather on ITV

[bmibaby319]

Most plane are leased from ILFC

[CHfour]

CV,

Haven't heard anything that suggests that any leases are to be renegotiated or replacement aircraft sourced. In fact management have gone to ground the last week or so which is the best indication of the way this is going.

Why would you hear anything? Leasing deals often go to the wire as better rates are secured that way. It might surprise you to know that business goes on, even during recessions. People may have less money now but they still want to holiday abroad and they use no frills airlines. LH have forgotten more about running airlines than you will ever know and they don't share your defeatist views. Things will be very tight for quite some time but all is not lost yet. I would be interested to know why you take such a sadistic delight in forcasting our demise?

[North Stand Tier3]

TOYA to D & GBD leases expire next year. YC in Budapest on check at LHT and (like YB) with reduced flying it may make financial sense to park up prior to handback if that's planned

Think the rumour and conjecture is getting bit much now. Considering the press/media are so vilified on this site some of what is being spouted is not helpful to anyone. Yes, this is a rumour site but this thread is turning into a 'for my 2 penneth' column. It is obvious there will be some bad news on Wednesday and there will be a lot of upset people. Comments about 'just shuttingTinytown' and 'my base is more important than yours' doesn't help anyone. People are worried as it is with the uncertainty. Having expeienced redundancy I wouldn't wish it on anyone especially in the current job climate and Xmas just round the corner

Anyway rant over, let's wait til Wednesday. For all those affected by the announcement best of luck

Right, I'll get me coat.........

[bmibaby319]

There sohuld be some could news (hopefully)
Does anybody no when G-TOYK Lease Expire?

[cheesycol]

Please, BB319, make use of a spell checker!

Or:

Peas MM193 mak youse av a spoul cheka?

A little punctuation goes a long way as well. Your posts can be a challenge to interpret!

[Looker]

At last some common sense - Facelookbovvered North Stand tier 3 :D

Whilst some of you might wish baby out of existence I really can't see what you're basing this upon. The facts as laid out by Facelookbovvered suggest DLH have a long term plan for Baby. Times are hard and we may be facing some restructuring but that is pretty normal given a change of ownership.

Personally I'm more optimistic now we have some new management at the helm - I'd have been more concerned if the top floor hadn't been swept clean.

As for aircraft leases not being renewed I think its likely that better deals are to be had and we won't need these aircraft until Spring so why pay for aircraft to sit idle all winter?

[RevMan2]

@Cheekyvisual

I don't like to be the profit of doom

At least someone's making a prophet these days...

[Panther]

Bmibaby CWL
Tbi....

I don't think for one second that baby are going to pull CWL. Pete Durnford likes the base, it has relatively good load factors on the current routes with 2 x 733, and hopefully things will improve again for S10.

If further rationalisation is needed then my money would go on BHX closing as a base with W rotations being flown out of EMA to cover the customer base in Birmingham. EMA is after all only 38 miles from BHX so getting crews to and fro is not going to be a show stopper, and folk will get used to it.

I have said it before but baby is a brand that does have a presence and I am sure will be around for a while yet!!

Ant.

Just to add further from my CWL post.

It must be very worrying to have various uncertainties hanging in the wings but.........

1. Baby has a massive brand presence in the UK.

2. It would be commercial madness for lufthansa to ignore that.

3. There is a synergy with GW that has to be exploited further.

4. The 733 fleet has to be phased out due to cost.

5. A319 frames could be rolled in to takeover from the a/c due to be handed back, more efficient, already available, and fills a void in the LH group.

6. CWL base for historic HR reasons is the obvious choice to be the launch site for A319 startup within baby for the UK. A lot of the crews are "Toulouse" trained already, and there are very competent people in place to run with the project.

A lot of doom and gloom has been posted in recent days...... bmibaby is here to stay and will restructure and grow IMHO.

One year from now this process will have started and the future for these outstanding folk will be secure.

Wait out.

Ant

[bmibaby319]

Sorry For the Spelling guys, I Like to type fast!

The Summer Period at CWL Ended to today. G-TOYF Went back to EMA Today, Now only G-TOYM And G-OBMP is at the base So there is only Two Based now, But another A/C Should come back in the Spring.

bmibaby have a Great name which Probaly made them Pouplar.

Well baby will have to Bring more Airframes back in the Summer. This Could be the Begining of the end of the 733 at Baby

[Little Blue]

There goes that flying pig again !!!!
:rolleyes:

[mathers_wales_uk]

Where you hear that from?

[Waterbabe22]

i think you should cite your clearly non-existent or dubious sources...:=

[SR71]

The source is the local county council who circulated a missive to that effect. You can speak with them yourself to ascertain the veracity of the information.

I am querying its authenticity myself.

[bmibaby319]

Only one baby at CWL Today G-ODSK

[plaincrazy]

Definately 2 a/c based at CWL, the other one would have been operating this mornings EDI if it wasnt there.

[mathers_wales_uk]

GTOYM and GODSK both at CWL today

GODSK - WW2001/2002/2003/2004
GTOYM - WW2333 (On ground all day until this evening)

[bmibaby319]

There is a Local Website www.cardiffstathan.************* (http://www.cardiffstathan.*************)
The site is really called South Wales Avaition Group. When i was flicking thorugh the CWL Boards i did not see the Belfast int Service.

Why is G-TOYM on the ground wasting time?
Why didn't baby Put it on a Nice Malaga Morning Service?

Both CWL Babys are Flying Billboards

All CWL Babies once were 737-500's

[Tail-take-off]

Just my opinion but I very much doubt DLH will re-equip any part of bmi until they see light at the end of the profit tunnel.

[bhxfirefly]

well all of this is really speculation - until theyhave there meeting on wednesday were gonna be no wiser, working ourselves up over what could be is not gonna help any of us!!! - but as for the post regarding bhx closing i dont think thats the case - the head of cabin services said that both midland bases were performing very strongly.

Also next year theres no alc or agps out of man?

theres a whole can of worms so what will be will be.

[SR71]

Having now spoken to the airport itself, they have confirmed the source of the communique is not them, so the original recipient is obviously unclear about his own sources!

[worldaccording2]

Here comes another round of redundancies just before Christmas again. It seems baby is the easy option for lufty/Mainline to keep running the business down as leases come to an end. The difficult decisions like stopping mainline hemorrhaging close to 200 million well I guess not even German engineering can vorsh sprung technique that one out......:mad:

"Dear bmibaby employee



You are kindly invited to attend an extremely important presentation/meeting as detailed below, where bmibaby management will present the business plan for bmibaby for 2010.



Due to the importance of this meeting it would be greatly appreciated if you could prioritise your attendance at one of the following sessions;



Wednesday 4 November 2009 "

[adam12345]

Looks like a very reduced schedule tomorrow, maybe something to do with the meeting. Had a look at the flights for tomorrow and not a lot going on.

Birmingham - 5 Departures
Cardiff - 3 Departures
East Midlands - 9 Departures
Manchester - 5 Departures

Maybe its just the trend for the winter schedule? Looks like there will be a few aircraft on the ground tomorrow.

[OltonPete]

adam12345

BHX is planned for five departures all winter less the holiday periods.

After the first release only eight were planned and a couple of weeks
ago they cut EDI completely on a Wednesday and Glasgow am.

Pete

[OliWW]

At EMA it will go up in December with the addition of Geneva on a Wednesday, I also think Malaga is on a Wednesday as well soon, (not 100% on that). So it will be 10 or 11 :}

[CheekyVisual]

I can't blame LH. Baby could and should have made money bet the muppets at the top that blew it won't been seen offering their resignations though. Just don't know if I can bare listening to 40 minutes of management BS to justify the next stage of the shutdown. "Sorry guys they just won't let us give it a go and x number of you are down the road this year and x number next year, thanks" would suffice. Five minutes and down the pub to drown sorrows and fill in McDonalds application form. (got mine already, wanted to beat the rush !).

Good luck guys and girls it's been nice working with you.

Of course I might have read this all wrong and what they are actually going to anounce is a doubling of the fleet conversion to the 319 and commands all round. Mmmmmm probably not.

Sorry if that all sounds a bit bitter but it is !

[Little Blue]

Fingers crossed for you all from o'er the border.
:sad:

[bmibaby.com]

I think all of us would like to hope that Lufthansa has had an opportunity to look over the books and see the great deal of potential that bmibaby has, or to see the visit by germanwings managers at Tiny Town some weeks ago as a sign perhaps that the company might be introducing new routes, products or aircraft. The sad truth is that the union's have been consulted with, and there has never been a reason for attending announcements in the past when expansion was announced. bmibaby has a great team of hard-working employees, many in head office and EMA who's history with the company has stretched way back into British Midland, who have worked hard to create a successful low-cost airline. Lack of vision, fight, creativity and funding has gone a long way to let other airlines walk all over what people have been trying to create for some time, and hope if the announcement negatively affects colleagues in whatever function they're working in, that they'll land on their feet with an airline with an open corporate culture and who is committed to growth.

[worldaccording2]

I don't think Lufty have much time for baby, they have much bigger problems with mainline and the black hole their finances are in. It has no fixed assets and it seems the cheapest way of winding it down is to keep letting staff go as the leases run out.

The meeting tomorrow will be confirmation that 2010 Baby fleet will go down to 12 aircraft.

7 based at EMA, that leaves 5 to be distributed between other bases.

1 base closure ( don't know which one, but they like picking on BHX????) to release the 5 aircraft going back to lessors.

Its not going to good news for a lot of people-again!!!!

SMB and NT and all the other cronies at Mainline are sitting pretty with final salary pensions, leaving the rest of the company in **** street.:mad:

I knew I should of been a gynecologist, after all i have years of experience working for ****s!!!!

[16024]

Exactly!
Talk about taking their eyes off the ball...
Remember the trouble baby had expanding last time things were good. It was difficult to get a/c and crews. It wasn't even possible to promote internally at the rate required as the training dept was overstretched. Direct entry contract capts, expensive leases... it goes on, and will go on again, unless someone looks a couple of years forwards.
This is true of any airline. Easy and Ryan didn't get where they are by tightening their belts until they couldn't breathe, and battening down the hatches every five minutes. There's nothing supernatural about baby's situation, or the road to recovery.
It's not the ranting of someone who fails to see the accountants' wider picture, or the seriousness of the market downturn, but there is a natural cycle to it all.
For anyone who has seen this all before, remember 1988? 1996? 2004?
2012 anyone?

[BAladdy]

Noticed that WW have WFU G-TOYB & C in recent months and G-TOYI in the last week.

Are these aircraft just going for storage to return next winter or are they being permenantly removed?. Also are they planning to remove any more aircraft??.

[North Stand Tier3]

Just announced, 158 jobs to go with 136 being flt crew & 22 Tinytown & support roles...good luck to those affected

YI merely on C check in Sofia

You ain't seen me right........

[malagamike]

can you give any more details about 2010 bmibaby flights.

[Little Blue]

Mr F....

Pretty sure you'll be able to get plenty from/to EMA, but not a lot elsewhere !

[FlyboyUK]

Memo states fleet reduction of 5 aircraft as leases expire over winter. 158 jobs at risk, includes 54 pilot positions, 82 Cabin staff & 22 management/support staff.

A sad day and good luck to everyone.

[bazzab68]

Anyone have any idea on based units after this announcement. Am hearing BHX down to 2 a/C based. 1 of each. Down from 7 and goes against there plans in making bhx a super base only 2 years ago. Am assuming 7 for EMA and then 2 each for CWL and Man??

Best Regards

Baz

[ZeBedie]

from ABTN | Industry news and expert advice (http://www.abtn.co.uk)

Bmibaby to focus on growth routes

Today at 11:47 — by Stanley Slaughter (http://www.abtn.co.uk/users/StanleySlaughter) in Air Travel (http://www.abtn.co.uk/channel/Air+Travel), Travel Management (http://www.abtn.co.uk/channel/Travel+Management) | NEWS ITEM


Restructuring could mean job losses
BMI's low cost carrier bmibaby today (November 4) announced a restructuring with a focus on routes that are likely to grow.
The airline, now part of the Lufthansa Group, said the changes will lead to more jobs at the UK's East Midlands Airport.
But there could be job losses at Manchester, Birmingham and Cardiff Airports and as well as at its head office.
The carrier said it was also cutting five aircraft from its current fleet of 17 in2010.
Bmibaby said the new strategy would focus on "routes where there are clear indications and prospects for future growth and development".
The aim was to enable the airline to "concentrate on core operations and activities and to adjust existing schedules and frequencies to maximise their potential".
It said the new plan would mean new jobs for ten pilots and 15 cabin crew at East Midlands.
But it said 54 pilots and 82 cabin crew at the three other airports were "at risk of redundancy."
There could also be 22 jobs in management and support operations lost at head office.
Crawford Rix, managing director, bmibaby, said the aviation industry was facing "its toughest time ever - it is experiencing record losses and remedial action has to be taken. bmibaby is no exception to this".
He added: "We have to focus our efforts and activities on routes and services that we believe are the best fit for our business.
"We believe that having identified and by concentrating on the core business areas and reinforcing our efforts, we can ensure that bmibaby continues to provide its customers with the best possible competitive fares as well as an attractive range of business and leisure products."

[NightSun]

About time for Crawford to get a new company car. the old one must be coming up to a year old!
Playing his tuba as Rome burns?

[CFD]

Good luck to all my ex colleagues at Baby that may be affected by the news.
I was there at the beginning but glad not to be there now!

[planenut321]

Sad times :( does anyone know the status of the bases next year in comparison to this year?
I understand EMA is being focused on so may have an increase of units from the 7 units proposed next year. This will leave 5 or less between 3 bases. I see a base closure and its looking a lot like it may be CWL as it is the smallest but saying that the flights have good loads.

[kingston_toon]

6 at East Mids, 2 at each of the other three, I believe.

[OliWW]

So much for the 8 at EMA :mad: and theres me to believe that bmibaby was the successful one and not bmi mainline?

[bmibaby319]

When i flew to Edinbrugh the plane
out had only a few seats seats left that were empty on the way back the plane was full.

Baby cant cut at CWL they only just expanded there routes there.

All Though i can see Murcia and Almeria Going out the cot at CWL. .

[Centre cities]

I hope not but they cetainly can, no sentiment in aviation nowadays I am afraid.

Centre cities

[Centre cities]

It seems that the cut backs are well planned in advance, I do not belive that they do not know what routes are going. As ever the customer dosnt seem to matter as they allow them to make plans and book flights that are plainly not going to be there.

Take the routes off sale now.


Centre cities

[skip.rat]

Sorry to hear about the job cuts; I don't doubt that there's going to be more of the same at mainline & regional. Speaking as one of the 'cronies' at mainline, I would suggest that any profit/loss figures spouted by the board in the past are merely put out to suit the mood of the day - sure, the group may have made "x" profit/loss in such a year, but I'm pretty sure that money has been shifted around to influence policy, salary claims, etc. It's for that reason that I think that the posts by worldaccording2 & 16024 are being a bit simplistic. When baby was set up (in a matter of weeks) back then my roster was changed almost overnight to fly the baby sectors instead of mainline ones. Ops & crewing was being run from the hall; engineering assistance was on hand from Midland;- I bet that wasn't going through baby's books. I'm not trying to turn this into a rant about which arm of the business is more worthy than the other, I just think that any talk of profit/loss that comes from the company should be treated with a large pinch of salt, at least until things have bedded down and we all have a board in charge that are interested in more than lining their own pockets. I for one am regularly flying full aircraft to midhaul destinations, a number of which are to oil rich countries where there is little or no competition. If they can't generate revenue from that then the marketing should be handed over completely to LH. I tend to agree with the sentiments of bmibaby.com's post yesterday with regard to the level of commitment that must have been apparent to the Lufty guys that have been overseeing things recently, and also to the inaction that seems to have gripped SMB and his merry band. For years the competition has been placing large orders for new, fuel efficient aircraft, while baby end up with the legacy fleet from mainline plus a few clapped out -300s from the far east. Can it be a surprise that they may not be as efficient or reliable as the competition's? - Not really, I think we all realise now that probably not a single operation that occurred within any part of any of the group's activities didn't happen without a 'cut' being filtered away to boost a bank account somewhere. I wonder how much of the much-touted £100m "loss" was because of that?
There was much talk of LH simply flogging off parts of the business; I think that it is at least a positive sign that they haven't done so. I think that the next couple of years will (I hope) show them that it will have been the correct choice.

[jam8080]

A very, very sad day indeed. Re-structure or call it what you want has left 3 poentially good basis wide open to competion. Would also think what little confidence the public had in baby has no doubt gone, who wants to book with an airline that may fly to your destination?

Although the business plan looks good now its just too late for 150 odd people, EMA will either make or break the company from today.

Good luck to all concerned.

[Hudson Bay]

The company is a dead duck.

12 Aircraft simply will not pay the bills. This is Luftys way of driving down the business until there is nothing left. They will wait till the next lot of leases come up and drive it down until its dead and buried.

One thing is certain passengers ain't going to book now with a company that is sinking.

The baby is dead.

[Facelookbovvered]

Hudson

You may be right or a mile out, who knows for sure, there are some positives in this (apart from the people directly effected of course) if this is a slow death, why, it would have been easier to shut up shop, 12 leases would be sorted by LH given their clout and at least they would have drawn a line under it, this way the have exposed themselves to the down side risk.

I doubt the public will bat an eye lid RBS have announced 3'700 job cuts this week alone and they maybe underwritten 83% by uk gov but LH is backing baby in this it seems.

Industry figures have suggested a loss at bmi for year ending 31/12/2009 of £150m-£200m for bmi group i have heard figs for baby quoted at £5m loss and Regional £0-3M loss, that leaves one hell of a whole to fill from elsewhere!!!

I was at an ex regional bods wedding do in Harrogate a few weeks back and a Regional BALAP guy said "watch what they do baby, take their jobs cut and multiply by 10 fold to see whats coming mainlines way"

I think a lot of peeps are going to have a crap Xmas

[bmibaby.com]

Very sad news for all of colleagues from the other bases and at Tiny Town that are going to be affected by this, and who will continue to be affected as Lufthansa continue to chop and change their strategy for the bmi group, sadly I'm sure more is to come. I'm sure Lufthansa are well aware of what they're doing, and that this move has come as a way of being able to reduce losses, whilst still maintaining an important presence in the UK, although I can't help but think that this will do some serious damage to the bmibaby brand and reputation. After the XL debacle, people have been very wary to book flights with operators looking shaky. Hopefully the likes of easyJet, Monarch, Jet2 and flybe are looking where they can fill the gaps, and hopefully with decent job offers for displaced colleagues as well.

[OliWW]

Will be interesting to see 2 baby aircraft at EMA in the future :mad:!!!! Cant wait to see EMA as a FR airport, with a possible 9 aircraft for S10, baby would have cleared up that situation nicely, don't look so certain now though.

How it was in hmm, there first year!! So this makes me wonder, did baby peak in 2006? :uhoh:

[worldaccording2]

Skip.rat.... apologies if you thought my comments were directed at the pilot fraternity of mainline, they were not. They are directed firmly at the management of Mainline and Baby. As one of the 158 affected by today's announcement, the mood of the majority is one of being let down and mismanaged. I totally agree with your comments regarding the financial artistry that has been going on by SMB.

Lufty have been forced into taking BMI group and despite their best efforts not one bidder has materialized to take it off their hands. So they are forced to try and stop the bleeding. Baby today and unfortunately Mainline and regional at the end of the month. The cull at the top has already started, but the board and previous management must the responsibility of the state the business is in.

We were told that the minimum no of aircraft required to operate as a financial going concern was 17. That has now become 12 for next year and we can all guess what will happen next winter when more leases expire. Lufty will wind it down to nothing and concentrate on their core business.

To all who are affected either with baby,mainline or regional I wish you well for the future and hope we can all find a better place to enjoy our chosen profession.

[righthandrule]

There were rumours that Jet2 were in discussion with investors and Lufthansa, to offload bmibaby and integrate it into Jet2's business model.

I guess todays announcement rules that out, Jet2 do not need to take a huge risk anymore, simply open a new base at the airports where bmibaby is cutting back on, like we have already seen major expansion at MAN and a new base at EMA. Watch this space with regard to CWL and BHX! Lufthansa obviously have a long term stratergy for what is going to happen to bmi/bmibaby etc, but clearly it is not interested in increasing their presence in the UK based LCC market. It's a huge shame as bmibaby are one of my favourite airlines, and I think an enlarged Jet2/bmi baby would have been a huge success, and could have realistically competed with Ryanair/easyJet.

[Val d'Isere]

The hopeful posts are commendable, I suppose.

Unfortunately, the writing was on the wall way back when bmibaby failed to expand at the necessary minimum rate. You've got to be big and keep getting bigger faster than anyone else if you want to be a top dog in low cost operations. Otherwise, you starve or get eaten alive.

bmi, bmibaby and the other tiny train set with the skinny jets whose name I forget are clearly incapable of facing competition from anyone with better management. Which is pretty much anyone.

[scott737]

From an SLF perspective, I find it hard now to book a flight with baby. The carrier seems to have an unfortunate habit of cancelling booked flights and whilst this is perfectly legal, it doesn't engender customer loyalty since the customer then has to find other flights at short notice often at a higher cost. This then makes the customer less likely to book baby flights in the future in case the same thing should happen again.

I sincerely hope baby will survive as I've found the crews great and it is people's livelihoods we're talking about here. But, IMHO, what they surely need to do is show some commitment to routes so that customers can book with confidence in them knowing that the route will operate. Unfortunately, the announcement of the fleet reduction leads to the conclusion that more routes will be cut, more customers disappointed and probably more people generally less willing to book with baby in the future. It is hard to escape from the conclusion that they are on a generally downward spiral although I really hope I am wrong and that LH has some sort of masterplan for their rescue.

Scott

[Centre cities]

Retreating to your spirital home is what elephants do to die, or am I thinking about something else.

Seriously I can not see EMA sustaining the airline and baby making profits on routes that other have dropped, Barcelona being one.

Good luck to them though.

Centre cities

[apron]

To all my baby collegues.......did u know that only today, i believe, the pilot management at bmi have been asking for what i can only describe as volunteers to apply for an airline that they have a lead in with. Required...4000hrs, 2000 on jets. Its bloody emirites and none of the baby lot have had a look in!!!
Shameful

[1033]

I completely sympathise with you Apron but are you sure of your facts?

Right off the bat, I dont have any facts but I was under the impression that this was simply a steer in the right direction from the managers not a lead in. Do you have information that actually suggests that bmi mainline pilots will get an immediate position upon application or even a fast tracked interview?

Sketchy details at present, so if you know more......

[sjm]

Why not they kept sixty of you from the dole queue last year, by the same method, shame the respect and loyaty(if you can call it) that doesnt extend to baby.
Virgin doid the same for thier guys

[1033]

What happened last year was a Secondment. I may be wrong but i do not think that what you are talking about this time is a Secondment.

Not backing any particular side but i was just trying to ensure that the correct facts are used before people start banding around accusations of what is fair & what is not. Secondment is completly different to a "chaps so & so are recruiting if you are interested in it" message.

I do not know any of the details but if one of the bmi folk who has taken this further would like to correct any of my errors, i'd happily stand corrected.

[apron]

right off the bat....the fact is that Interest and c.v's are initially to be given to BB and some other recruitment fella. If it is indeed them that passes them to Emirates then tis is more than a gentle steer but like I said some agreement/arrangement.

Good luck to my collegues

[OltonPete]

Some possible developments today with easyjet kindly offering their
East Midlands pax to Baby and now as reported on the Bounemouth
thread a new route has appeared to Jersey.

The gap in the schedule has always been there since the summer 2010
flights were released with the East Mids Jersey aircraft having spare capacity to operate another flight but is this a sign that aircraft have been saved?

The last change of schedule I noticed was not good news with BHX-GLA
from this Wednesday going down to daily until 11/1/2010. This seems to leave them with just three operational aircraft at BHX for a few weeks.

Pete

[ryanair1]

Well done on this new route - this is pretty good thinking by bmibaby considering they has just been cutting back at other airports.

Let's face it, BOH is perfect for an link to JER: no competition for the 400,000 population of BOH (including Poole and Christchurch) apart from the flybe southampton operation 30 mins away, appropriate and wealthy older population (!)

Definitely better to do this route than having the a/c on the ground at JER.

what is the flight time? 20 mins!?

[stuart-travel]

Check on sun summer timtable shows EMA 8 AIRCRAFT
BHX 3 AIRCRAFT
CWL 2 AIRCRAFT
MAN 1 AIRCRAFT
Times are all sun a/m this makes 14 aircraft required is the 12 qouted to be altered or are the use of mainline or other aircraft to be used.

regards
stuart

[globetrotter79]

JER-BOH

Bizarrely, their booking system shows a 45 minute block time on the sector BOH-JER but a 24hour, 45minute sector for the JER-BOH sector with the system indicating that the flights depart one day (Mon, Fri and Sat) and arrive the next day?!!

[mathers_wales_uk]

Cardiff

Looking at the WW website it shows on Wednesday CWL only having 3 flights but current times are.

A/C 1 - Dep 06:50 then arrive at 16:30 (no flights after this)
A/C 2 - Dep 12:00 then arrive at 17:45 (no flights in the am and nothing in the evening.

Are we likely to see the schedule to change and show only one aircraft operating that day or is there a new route or extra rotations to be announced?

Tuesday and Wednesday are also showing nothing after 19:20 so maybe we are to see a new route or aircraft being positioned and used elsewhere?

[OltonPete]

stuart-travel

I have copied the whole schedule out Monday - Friday for the
2nd week in June and the aircraft required are: -

EMA 7
BHX 5
MAN 2
CWL 2

Total 16

BHX's EDI & GLA do nothing in between the morning & evening flights
and I expect they will move to Regional as rumoured or chopped leaving BHX with three and this is why three are needed Sat & Sun on
the Med routes - very carefully planned.

If it gets cuts to 12 then there will be more serious route losses
but hopefully 14 it will be but you can see that they do have a plan B.

The Manchester's two do 16 sectors on a Monday and Friday that
would take some losses to get that to one aircraft.

Pete

[shamrock7seal]

More routes to be cut for sure.

A/c base for summer 2010

EMA: 8
CWL:2
MAN or BHX:2

Extra routes in w pattern from EMA to Europe to BOH

[CheekyVisual]

Some light with potentially 14a/c not 12.

CWL 2
MAN 2
BHX 3
EMA 7

14 a/c, IF LH decide baby have done enough to keep and extra 2. Will know next week. Working out aircraft patterns from the schedule will not give you the plan as it was only ever a wish list to see if the bookings could hold LH at bay. The actual schedules won't appear for a few weeks yet. I know what you're going to say but it is true ! Likely to be mostly leisure with the odd domestiic that makes a bit of cash. With only a year to make money they're going to have to be very careful what they operate. It all has to work !

[Bournemouth Air]

From the Bournemouth Website says

"Plus the development of the new terminal at Bournemouth Airport, which is due to open in spring 2010, will open up even more opportunities for bmibaby."

This is absolutly great new for Bournemouth residents.

I have already heard booking have started to be taken now.

Looking forward to further flights in the future as Thomson, Easyjet and Ryanair dont seem interested.

Well done roll on the new terminal opening,:D

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v237/Sparkynufc/SS102775.jpg

[ryanair1]

The press release says 24,000 pax. That means its B737-300 on all days with an AVERAGE load factor of 85%. So bmibaby must be getting rid of all B737-500's

Ryanair is interested in BOH but there are some routes Ryanair would never do which would allow bmibaby to consider:

AMSTERDAM (a thick profitable route for BOH)
PARIS
NICE (a match for the catchment of BOH - wealthy, older)
PRAGUE
BELFAST (Jet2 tried daily - would be better 1-3-5-7)
GLASGOW (plug a gap left by FR stopping PIK - 2008 128,000 pax on this)
MANCHESTER (a much needed link between South Coast & MAN)
KNOCK (Large catholic and irish population in and around BOH)
BORDEAUX (huge amount of 2nd home owners in this region from BOH)
ALMERIA (a match for the catchment of BOH - wealthy, older)

[ryan2000]

Unlike Lourdes , Knock Shrine has never managed to attract overseas pilgrims so I doubt if any airline would take the Catholic population into account on that basis.

[pug]

Things are realy looking good for BOH, such a shame HUY has not benefited from MAGs airline connections :ugh:

New terminal looks nice, will BmiBaby be considering any further expansion? They seem to be strong at MAN and EMA currently.

[Little Blue]

Very strong at EMA, but nowhere else, at the moment.
If it's just W-patterns to begin with, then who knows what may happen.
First bit of good news for a long while.
:ok:

[OliWW]

Looking at the timetable for the end of July 2010 and EMA will need the following aircraft on the following days

Mon = 8 Aircraft
Tue = 7 Aircraft
Wed = 6 Aircraft
Thu = 8 Aircraft
Fri = 8 Aircraft
Sat = 8 Aircraft
Sun = 8 Aircraft

They could squeeze Fri down to 7 if necessary, but 8 are needed for most days :ok:... lucky us

[INKJET]

Not bad, it's only taken baby 7 years to work out that you have to "own" an airport to make money and leave nothing for anyone else, meds aside and looking at the number of AGP that WW are running next Summer weekends they will dominate that route

Its early days yet, but looks like Hudson bay & Acbus didn't call it right on baby & LH

[Centre cities]

They have got to fill the aircraft first and make money. A nice 8 aircraft schedule is one thing, making them pay is another.


Centre cities

[FL370 Officeboy]

MANCHESTER (a much needed link between South Coast & MAN)

flybe do MAN-SOU about 8 times a day. Baby effectively competing directly would be suicide!

[loveJet]

There could be some potential on this route especially for inbound VFR/Leisure to BOH for summer period.

bmibaby could make a daily route work departing MAN 08:00 arriving BOH 09:05 and then being in Bournemouth for the day flying out to Europe. Then returning to MAN in the evening. This would require a change of crew at BOH but not necessarily a based aircraft.

Lets face it, there would be little or no business traffic northbound but there would be leisure traffic southbound. Hence no need to have an early morning from BOH up to MAN

[harbour cotter]

I agree that any BOU/North west link would be unlikely to be successful because of regular flights direct to SOU from both the NW airports. I travel to Bournemouth a few times per year on business from cheshire and since the direct cattle trains stopped I now fly the route LPL/SOU with EZE. There is probably more business and holiday traffic between the 2 areas than many realise, bearing in mind the major congestion on the M6 which makes driving the route a nightmare. However If there was a direct flight from LPL to BOU I would utilise it. I'm sure that some may also use a Man link if they live or work in that area. But overdall I doubt the numbers would add up unless the SOU routes diminished. Additionally you can be on the train in just a few mins from SOU direct to BOU. I feel that other areas of expansion offer better options for both BOU and airlines on what would always be a marginal route at best.

Speaking to colleagues on the south coast, its not just SOU in which there is competition, but the near proximity of LGW/LHR and the myriad of options available from there which dilutes BOU and SOU traffic, which is why it is difficult to have direct comparisons with airports in say the North East or North West.

[sam dilly]

Does anybody really see serious summer traffic on MAN - LDE ?
or is that about to be canned ?

[fanrailuk]

I tend to agree with the LDE - think it's teetering on the edge... :eek:

[bmi expat]

The LDE flights have an allocation for most of the flights this summer, for at least 50% of the seats. They are expected to make a fortune so will be staying.

[sam dilly]

I am still not convinced about the LDE
As a charter operation in 2009 it didnt sell very well.
Flybe had to put up with quite a few cancellations , against the original programme.
Yes a few peak dates will sell, but Titan, and Globespan have also a few flights on these dates.
On quite a few dates the pax loads were in the teens in 2009,ok on a charter, as the airline gets paid, but as a schedule ?????? :confused:

[freightdoggy dog]

But will Globespank be around then Sam ? And arent Baby meant to be bunkering down in EMA....Perhaps RYR should start a LBA-LDE schedule with some nice fat marketing money ???????

[sam dilly]

Oh dear FDD
why doesnt one of the other BIG boys at LBA look at that. A little birdy, did mention that another carrier at MAN looked at LDE also offering a 737 300 !
TTG on line have some strange info on Globespan this PM. Lets hope they pull through. Maybe the BA strike will be the saviour of a few carriers.

[INKJET]

bmibaby have now had approval from LH to retain 2 of the 5 units set to be returned at the end of their lease. This means a fleet total of 14 for the start of S10 (an additional unit each in BHX & EMA) so i guess some jobs are safer?

bmibaby cabin crew are to get new more upmarket uniforms, not before time!!

EMA is back to thrice daily for 2010 on GLA & EDI not sure whether this means the end of the road for BHX Scottish services?

Summer program starting to look very busy out of EMA with some days needing 8 units but only 7 based?

Maybe there is light at the end of tunnel for baby, if so not before time

Merry Xmas to all

[scotsunflyer]

EDI/CWL down daily flight except Saturday for S10

[Mr A Tis]

You see the very smart uniforms of the Lufthansa owned Germanwings crew ...and then you look at the T shirt & Anorak of BMI Baby crews...............it says it all really.
The beautifully presented interiors of the GW A319 & then the tired B733s of WW :-( makes you want to :{
I am sure the WW operation is very professional, but the Germanwings operations is geared to ensure a slick operation ;presented to the customer at all levels of service.
The LH influence can only be a good thing for WW IMHO.

[Businesstraveller]

It strikes me that the BMI Baby crew can look as professional in their attire as they like. I've seen some look like they came out of a J class cabin and others that look like they are off to do some gardening!

As for the cabins - the older fabric seats (which seem to be in the majority) are life expired and are really quite uncomfortable for anything more than a short domestic flight.

What about the names the aircraft have - bit of a difference between the Qantus's majestic 'Spirit of Australia' and Baby's 'Ice Ice Baby' or 'Foxy Baby'.

[Centre cities]

Better than City of....... ( yawn )

Bet you dont like the Virgin names either.

I carnt see anything wrong with them.


Centre cities

[FR-]

Do the public actually care about the name of the a/c? No. The pax want a clean/tidy on time flight.

[Businesstraveller]

FR- : I wouldn't disagree with anything you said there at all. Maybe we could expand your thought into a 'clean/on time tidy flight with a full schedule'. I would rather stick with BMI Baby where possible, but the ever decreasing schedules force me to take competitor airlines which do have full schedules.

[wings11]

Going back to the problems at baby/bmi and the redundancies.

What explanation/justification have baby management given for making redundancies within rank whilst at bmi mainline it appears they are heading towards some form of LIFO + bits and bobs and therefore the majority of layoffs will be FO's. This, at mainline, being despite the company specifying 50 FO's and 79 Cpt positions to go in the same way they did at baby.

Also, both sets of redundancies have had significant input and influence from the same midland group HR department. How can you have such different criteria? Surely, the baby contract was not that different from the mainline contract?

Wings 11

[SR71]

None whatsoever.

Curiously, I wonder, if on the basis they make redundancies by base, they'll make promotions by base?

No I didn't think so either...

[CheekyVisual]

It would appear that whatever a contract may or may not say the management have decided they will do what they want to do and BALPA have not challenged this legally. Base is not as great an issue at mainline because the majority of people (fd) affected are based at a single base (LHR). The other thing to consider, and I only put this as a thought, is that the Captains and FOs being made redundant, especially last year were all around the same level of seniority due to the recent expansion with a lot of direct entry captains. Therefore the people leaving were all around the same area of the seniority list regardless of rank. This is not the case at mainline with most captains having many years more seniority than most FOs. Doesn't make it right or wrong but just adds some perspective. The base issue is a seperate one but the same arguement is true that allow technically junior people kept jobs at unaffected bases we are talking people who were junior by months or even weeks. No comfort to those who left but again a bit of perspective.

Fingers crossed though whatever criteria they choose this time the numbers of people out of the door with no job to go to will be a lot smaller than was first feared as all remaining captains have been assured of a position, at least on a seasonal basis with some FOs actually getting a promotion. No comfort to those FOs still the wrong side of the line I know but things are still moving. I am hopeful there may end up being no FD comp redundancies. My glass is half full though.

[sjm]

Depends on what you call a promtion? For a SFO it would be a pay cut of £1700 going form full time FO to seasonal contract as a Capt.

Not what I call career progression. You?

[speedy688]

Does depend on whether the company have 70% or 50% seasonal contracts as I've heard of both being considered. The lack of updates is becoming really annoying!

[INKJET]

I think that even if you were £1700 worse off (Full time SFO V Capt seasonal) it is a price worth paying for 6+months command time, it is telling that 20+ skippers have applied for VR and none or few F/o's have.

[CheekyVisual]

Ryanair want captains not expereinced FOs, that is why 20 captains have VR'd and virtually no FOs. There are very few FO jobs out there. Time in the left hand seat opens doors. Seasonal, £1700 or not, it is career progression. No command time no DEC !!!!!! There's nothing to be gained in the long term by sitting in the right hand seat because you can buy a second hand fiat for the extra money. Think longer term.

[Looker]

Whether it is £1700 p.a or not, there is another part of the equation that FO's will need to consider.

Moving from LHS to RHS will also almost certainly entail a move from a secure FO position on the seniority to an at risk Captain's position on the seniority list. Are there yet more redundancies to follow?

A number of the at risk Captains have already found promotion has been a double edged sword now that management have reneged on the redundancy policy in our contract of employment.

This has not gone unnoticed by the SFOs who now view promotion with a great deal of scepticism. Many will now wait for the aviation cycle to begin to move upwards before moving to larger airlines. This will leave Baby poorly placed when/if expansion ever threatens again.

[INKJET]

I can not see any situation down line that would create the type of crew shortage that you set out.

2009 has been a game change event for baby, with SMB gone and the Wolfe in the the Hall you can no longer forecast the future by looking at what has happened in the past within the bmi group.

I think that if and when the group starts growing again and provided that there is no V4 redundencies next Autumn then any F/o having doubts about the wisdom of taking a Command may think again, but that's all in the future

[CheekyVisual]

Whinging about the company not honouring contracts is missing the point and is old news. They've done it and no one stood up to them.

The fact that there may be more redundancies to follow is the point of getting that command experience. It makes you more employable even to the "larger" airlines, none of whom are going to be recruiting any time soon. The people that are recruiting want command time. If you think sitting on a firm SFO position guarantees you long term employment security then good for you BUT if there are anymore redundancies I don't think it's going to matter how senior you are. The next round is all or nothing.

Getting in the Left seat gives you options when the time comes. Sitting firmly in the right might make you feel comfortable but I hope it's not a false sense of security. How many jobs are out there for very experienced even very very good First Officers as many at Baby are. Not many. You are betting your career and future prospects on Lufthansa letting Baby carry on until that up turn comes. They might. I genuinely hope they do. But staying in the right seat means limiting your career progression for years and years to come because even when you jump to that "large" airline it will still be in the right hand seat with probably more than a decade to command ok if you are a young buck but for a thirty (or more) something ?

When I started flying I was told by an "old boy" captain that if you get a sniff of a command take it. Because if you don't you may never get another one. I'm not saying anything baby are doing is right and I don't know the full ins and outs of this seasonal command stuff but what I am saying is think hard about where you want to be, not next year, but in ten years time and how you think you are going to get there.

[Looker]

Whilst in general I would agree with your sentiments about securing a command position as it presents itself there are other considerations that enter the mix.

Ryanair are not everyone's cup of tea, likewise working in the UAE may not be a practical solution for every pilot. Working for what is essentially a decent employer at a base near your home is a strong draw for a lot of Baby pilots. Risking your position in such uncertain times may not be a wise move.
I think most employers will want to see 500+ hours in the LHS before they consider you for a DEC - thus the SFOs considering seasonal commands will be looking at 2 seasons before they are able to satisfy that criteria. Which is a long time to be in the at risk zone for little material gain.

Whilst I'm sure many of my colleagues who have moved onto Ryanair are doing so with a positive attitude I'll wager a lot of them would rather still have their commands at Baby.

Horses for courses, you make the best decision you can with the information at your disposal at that time.

[INKJET]

The numbers i am hearing is that you'll do 500 hours a season

[Hudson Bay]

If you don't do 500 hours in the season I would be very concerned. The management at baby need to wake up. If they have not learn't from the past they will continue to roster half a dozen hours a month and that means curtains for everybody.

[Little Blue]

But if the programme doesnt allow for more than 6-8 flying hours a month, then what can thw management do?

[anoxic]

if you get a sniff of a command take it

Very sound advice. I would add: never, ever turn down a command.

[OltonPete]

New website design, looks much more modern but don't like the
date selection much prefer just the old drop down method.

Timetable section shows a good selection of months but a
separate tab for times, which is not that user friendly.

BHX summer schedule still be sold at 5 based aircraft - naughty naughty.

If everything is true what has been said then this has gone on long
enough. If it is the EDI & GLA to go then there is no problem as there
will be virtually no bookings this far a head, same with BFS but any other
and some people are going to be messed around.

Pete

[fanrailuk]

New website is awful (just like the airline)!

They need to make the site a lot quicker as it's taking it's time to process things, especially selecting dates as already mentiones and the route-map is terrible!

Change it back please...! :ooh:

[Looker]

Anoxic

Can't agree with your statement 'never,ever turn down a command'.

Turning your world upside down, living away from home, seeing your wife/children just on your days off are simply not acceptable to a lot of pilots. I had no hesitation in turning down (three times) an offer of a command in Scotland when I lived in the Midlands and I have never regretted it.

As I said earlier - horses for courses. If you're single with no ties then moving county, country or continent for a job/command may be feasible but I personally feel I made a lifetime commitment to my wife not my employer.

[anoxic]

Looker, the only reason I say that is in my airline:

a) it might be another 10 years before the chance comes again

b) when the chance does occur, you might not get asked a second time

Of course it's always personal, but in these difficult times I'd always take that command!

[Facelookbovvered]

Its a nice sentiment, but your Wife made a commitment to you as well?

Flying is more than a job. its a way of life, don't get me wrong i am not saying say yes to everything, but i know of more than a few who have "done the right thing" missed out on Command only to find Wifey in the arms of another!!

If Mrs Looker is a Looker, then treat her well and get her on board your career path, life is a deal, right!

Merry Xmas to all

See ya in the New Year.........i am out of here for some warmth, sand n sun

[CheekyVisual]

Yes it is always horses for courses. I have no wish to ever move to the sand pit even if I had no other option but to work in McDonalds. However, if this is about commands at baby. They are all in the midlands ! It is not a life changing commute from Manchester to Birmingham or Birmingham to EMA ! Believe me I've done life changing commutes !

If you're talking about post next summer. Then everything is subject to a multitude of IFs. Most people who went to Ryanair didn't get based somewhere the wrong side of the Iron Curtain, unless you count East Midlands !

Out of interest has anyone suggested to BALPA they put forward the following clause to seasonal promotions. "Any person promoted on a seasonal basis will be considered in their junior rank for the purpose of redundancy". i.e. your seasonal skippers are also SFOs

[excrab]

Cheeky Visual,

Out of interest, has anyone suggested to Balpa that, having allowed the company to totally ignore the seniority list in January, they should do the same thing now and offer these command vacancies to those captains (also Balpa members) who were made redundant less than a year ago and are about to enjoy their Christmas in Nigeria, India or Greece?

I thought not. Enjoy the left seat when you get there, but watch your back for the next round of stabbing from your colleagues who want your place.

Merry Christmas.

[Looker]

Facelookbovvered

I recall she said yes at the appropriate part of the marriage ceremony.

And Mrs Looker is a looker :0)

Top tip - don't try and tell my wife 'flying is more than a job, it's a way of life' because you'll end up wearing a saucepan for a bonnet.

[Mr Angry from Purley]

Looker

Yep, never move house for an airline job! :\

[sam1993]

New tail logo (http://jetphotos.net/viewphoto.php?id=6738609&nseq=1) for bmibaby?

[RoyHudd]

Important news Sam. Thanks a million.

[fanrailuk]

G-BVKB looking good there! But, is a new livery an essential (expensive) investment? As good as it looks, and if they're looking for a new all round livery [in turn brand image], do it quickly!! But it's no priority!

[jerboy]

Looks OK I guess, bit tacky perhaps? Think I prefer tiny as a cartoon and not all computerised!

Does this mean KB (and the other remaining 500s) will be sticking around?

Also note the new name for KB: "jelly baby". I like it!

[OliWW]

Its completely unnecessary to have that tail like that, completely :mad: pointless. They now have YI, YM and ZE in one lively, KB in one and the rest in another, its confusing and looks unprofessional. It would look so much better if they just made it the same as the newer livery. A complete waste of money, especially for an airline who should be watching what they spend on stupid liveries, its now 3 more aircraft to paint into "newer scheme" now.

[flying_highover]

Looks stupid, ineffective and pointless....

Wouldn't leave me with a big impression.....

[INKJET]

The name Jelly baby was planned for G-TOYK but the MD got wind of the plan:rolleyes:;)

[mathers_wales_uk]

Whats the plan in regards to aircraft livery? Are all aircraft going to be painted like the logo llivery such as SK etc and have the new tail scheme? Now they have starter it's better all of them get done not just some as it will look very unprofesional. I think it's a good sign that a new logo are going on the tails especially with some doom and gloom and uncertainty going on.

[OltonPete]

Reported on a BHX forum but from speednews.com

quote

"According to Speednews ex bmibaby B737-300s G-TOYA/B/C (c/n 26310/26311/26312)are to be leased to KUBAN AIRLINES of Russia from ILFC for three years from1Q10."

End of quote.

This will leave 14 aircraft!

Website still a mare even on a new netbook.

Pete

[FR-]

Nice to see baby have the money to waste. Mutton dressed as lamb :E

[Little Blue]

Nice to see that Ryanair have been able to see Baby off from EMA......
Oh, they haven't.
Bye bye Ryanair?

[FR-]

lol, who said ryanair is trying to see off baby, baby can manage that its self. I was just trying to make the point you can paint an old bit of trash however you wish, but it does not make baby a profit. I guess we will see in a years times.
And why would it be bye bye ryanair? EMA is making a profit, loads are good. And with easyJet leaving it should only get better.

I think your getting mixed up with EI-DLN.

[INKJET]

We all know the aircraft are getting on a bit, but far younger than that of some other LoCos

For now baby are stuck with the leases that were signed up under SMB, so in order to reposition the airline and shake off the "were all doomed" history, some investment in brand image, this includes the work done on KB and should be rolled out over the rest of the fleet before the peak Summer months and includes the new Cabin crew uniforms and all new cabin furnishing

Fresh paint,cabin, logo, website & crew uniform is small beer in money terms and some off it must be spent either way, bmibaby is (at least for now) a Lufthansa airline, its not going bust, its not going to run out of money, its not another Globespan teetering on the edge.

It must take the battle to Ryanair at EMA and keep the like of Jet2 from even thinking about a Med operation from EMA, it will not be easy, Ryanair are a very slick operation and whilst their customer service and back up is not the best,its seldom needed due to superior reliability with brand new aircraft and surplus back up aircraft if needed, they have had a far better winter thus far than Easyjet in terms of cancelled flights, mind you that might change today with heavy snow forecast accross the Midlands

[CheekyVisual]

I don't think even the most die hard babyite would suggest that it provides Ryanair with any serious competition. However, what it appears to have is a very loyal customer base and is a good alternative for those who believe in "Anybody But Ryanair". They are out there talk to people in any pub you'll find one or two. If that wasn't true they would have been eased out of EMA and they haven't been. If it can keep its regulars happy and pick up the majority of the ABRs at EMA and BHX the game isn't over.

As has been said many times though Baby has got to have a good summer in 2010. The new uniforms, names and paint jobs are an irrelavence really. The relevant points are they've got to fill those aircraft no matter how they are painted and get those passengers reliably to their destinations and make some money doing it. Even if it's only 10p a profit is a profit and in 2010 that is a must or there is no 2011 !

[OliWW]

Fresh website - poor
Fresh paint - will only most likely appear on 1 aircraft
Fresh uniform - who knows

I don't mean to sound negative I think they will do very well this summer out of EMA, but the website change wasn't necessary, the fresh paint on KB wasn't necessary, (it looks worse) and who knows what the uniform will be like, they need to focus their minds on something more worth while and that will benefit the passengers using the airline

[stansdead]

I am a Captain now on an A320, but believe me, I would have taken a Command on the "crew bus" if it had been offered when I was an FO.

Now, more than ever, Captains are Captains. FO's are just that. And they are 10 a penny currently - just look at the easyJet deal if you need confirmation.

Offered a Command recently, but turned it down? Then, you are a TW@T!!!

[Baby Gruntfuttock]

The repaint of KB has planned 18 mths ago and has been budgeted since then. The primary roll of paint is corrosion prevention and unless you know differently Oli / FR that’s why we paint them. :ok:

The new tail logo reflects the current Tiny used in advertising and will be used on any future re-paints. Take the time to look at it; it’s a vast improvement on the old design.


Gravity is a myth, the earth sucks.

[egnxema]

Tiny - looks more like a cartoon Ant to me!

[Looker]

Stansdead

Thanks for your advice - I'm sure your one size fits all approach to life will be a surefire winner in every situation for everyone.

[stansdead]

Looker,

When Bmi Baby is shut by your paymasters, you'll be grateful of the advice.

No worries, it's free of charge. Even though you obviously know better.

[SWBKCB]

Peel Airports is to go to the Court of Appeal in January to try and overturn the ruling against its £12m claim for damages against bmibaby for pulling out of MME/DTVA

[CheekyVisual]

Everyone has to make their own choice in life. You may be lucky you may be unlucky. I still think if there are any more redundancies next year it won't matter where you are based or where you are sitting!

No one is forcing anyone into a command and those that are getting them are extremely lucky that, as has been suggested previously, the company are not having to re-employ the Captains they shafted last year. Although that would have opened a massive can of worms !

[Mr Angry from Purley]

If anyone out there works for Baby can you tell them their (new?) web site is crap as i can't seem to select "one way". Tried 5 times to no avail it dissapears, like me off to BHX to CDG on Flybe instead, :\:\

[conti onepass]

that hapened to me tried to book a one way from manchester to amsterdam, got no where with it, its crap,they lost my business.

[aidoair]

Website

I absolutely agree with all the comments about the website. While i suppose it is good to see they are trying to keep things up to date and refreshing the brand, the saying 'don't fix whats not broken' comes to mind. Their previous website was one of the most easy and straight forward airline websites to use and book with. The new one seem to take an age to load and you are forever refreshing pages. As a regular user of baby this has become frustrating and i can see it will to so many others. Surely they must have noticed this themselves at least somewhere in the group? Now more than ever they need bookings. Just like Mr Angry just these simple little snags can deter people from booking and so they go somewhere else! COME ON BABY SORT IT !

Livery

The new tail update personally i like, keeps it inline with new baby brand that was brought in last year. While i guess to many it doesn't seem like the right time to be doing this with staff redundancys underway, it does however at least prove they havn't lost all faith in baby at the bmi/lufthansa group. Hopefully by keeping the brand fresh and up to date will help it in the publics eye and maybe one day hopefully we can see them expand again.

[Hudson Bay]

Durham Tees Valley Airport bosses return to court in bmibaby claim
Dec 29 2009 Evening Gazette

DURHAM Tees Valley Airport’s owner will return to court next month in an attempt to overturn a decision in its unsuccessful claim against bmibaby, according to reports.

Peel Airports launched an appeal against the aircraft carrier after losing a £12 million claim for damages.

It claimed bmibaby was in breach of contract, after it withdrew its vital Heathrow service from Durham Tees Valley (DTVA) in 2006, severing Teesside’s direct flight link with London.

But a judge deemed the terms of the contract too vague to be enforceable, leaving DTVA with a £1 million legal bill.

The airport wants to recover most of its legal fees if the appeal is successful.

[SWBKCB]

the poor Evening Gazette are getting mixed up between bmi (who dropped the MME-LHR service) and bmibaby (who pulled out their based aircraft at MME) - Peel are going to the Court of Appeal about the deal they had (or thought they had) with baby around the MME base.

[freightdoggy dog]

I just went to book a flight on the new website and it is total pants. It took over 5 minutes to load onto my laptop. I just wanted to fly in June to JER and it kept offering me January....I gave up and booked Flybe...well done to the muppets in Castle Don, that will really improve the load factors and yields......of your competitors :ugh:

[OliWW]

I booked a flight to Cork with WW two months ago with flights Departing at 14:15 on a Monday, and Arriving back at EMA about 22:30 on the Friday, and on Tuesday they have emailed me saying the flight times have changed, it now departs on the Monday at 20:40!! and Arrives back on the Friday at 23:45!! So now I have lost half a day, yet they have only changed the flight times today!! 3 days later, surely, they should change the website first?

[OltonPete]

Aren't Baby 100% owned by Lufthansa now?

I understand baby could be closed down by Lufthansa at anytime but can
they go bust in their own right and if not are PP taking money under false pretences?

Pete

[brian_dromey]

Even the most cash-strapped and poorly run of businesses can continue trading as long as the owners are happy to throw good money after bad, so in that sense as long as the LH group are happy to stand behind behind baby it would not go "bust"

Not saying WW is close to bakruptcy, but if LH were to close them down, I would expect an orderly shut-down at the end of a time-table period, rather than a here-today-gone-tomorrow liquidation like XL or Globespan.

With the new uniforms, spruced up aircraft, new website things seem to have stabilised for now, at least.

[CheekyVisual]

I'm not a financial expert but I have been told by someone who knows a lot more than me that it would be very difficult for a parent company to simply allow a wholly owned subsiduary to simply declare insolvency and cease trading. They would be liable for any monies owed and, more importantly, it would have a significant impact on the credit worthiness of other parts of the LH business.

I'm not saying LH won't close baby but I am saying they couldn't simply allow it to go bust ! So yet again the bookies have no idea really what they are talking about. Baby would actually be doing ok if the previous owner hadn't saddled it with the most expensive 737 classics in the world ! (apparently even LH beancounters needed a large schanps when they saw the costs) Oooh I wonder who actually owns them.............mmmm.........

[INKJET]

You are spot on, it would cause massive damage to LH to let baby go tits up and it wont happen,this whole nonsense is off the back of Paddy Power flaging Monarch as next to go which was then repoted in the The Times.

Easiest way of moving yourself from top spot is to place a bet on another airline (Airforce 1 at odds of 1000-1)

An orderly run down is what GM are doing with SAAB and if LH had that in mind at this stage they would not have agreed lease extensions on aircraft 4 & 5 for next Summer

Of the few remaining UK airlines i can't see any not making it through 2010, Ryanair will make life difficult for Jet2 at LBA and that will impact the bottom line but not to any critical degree. Eastern will continue to fly to places where the loads are too weak to support even a Dash

The IT crowd will have a good year and the weakness of the pound against the Euro will continue to hurt all the Loco's flying out of the UK, if Labour get re-elected there will likley be a run on the pound anyway and we will all be finished

My money would be on baby to be merged with German Wings and the company sold off or floated, somehow i just can't see LH funding a new fleet and a major expansion drive, i guess someone is going to get an arse kicking over the website farce

[racedo]

I'm not a financial expert but I have been told by someone who knows a lot more than me that it would be very difficult for a parent company to simply allow a wholly owned subsiduary to simply declare insolvency and cease trading. They would be liable for any monies owed and, more importantly, it would have a significant impact on the credit worthiness of other parts of the LH business.


Unfortunately it is very easy for a company to let a subsidary go bust and because of Limited Liability there is no comeback on the parent company other than for direct cross company guarantees and I reckon LH would have minimised these well in advance.

Sadly its all too commonplace and generally companies planning this would have the major assets held in another company name with a contract between companies.

[OltonPete]

As mentioned on the BHX thread BHX-GLA ends next Thursday with
about two weeks notice. Is this due to an early end to an aircraft
lease or a cynical ploy to keep bookings with a hope of transferring
pax to EMA-GLA rather giving a months notice and this giving flybe
the business?

Most already knew that BHX will be three units this summer yet four
continued to be sold for winter and five for summer (still four now
I believe as EDI is still bookable).

Contrast to EMA-BFS which in December recorded 5567 pax or about
60 per flight and 40% load factor plus cheap fares.

How long will Baby persist with this service especially with FR
operating three daily BHD on silly fares?

Pete

[Facelookbovvered]

Lastest T3 costa coffee gosip is that BALPA membership at bmibaby is in free fall with a group of baby pilots having started a legal challenge against balpa over changes to the way pilots are selected for redundancy agreed to by BALPA to included sickness and LIFO but only time served in baby, which by a strange quirk of fate resulted in the crew council members being taken out of the drop zone and pilots with dozens of years service with bmi put in the drop zone.

The crew council have repeatedly rolled over the latest being the removal of fresh milk from the crews, to be replaced with UHT milk jiggesr that have been on the aircraft for months and that the cabin crew says tastes like cold sperm!! i guess they'd be an aurthority on that then?

[INKJET]

Is anyone surprised, BALPA reps are between a rock and a hard place, dammed if you do and dammed if you don't

You do the CC bit for free, it takes up loads of time and hours on an evenning when all you want is a beer and a bit of telly, the best you can hope to get out of it is a line training position if you please your masters (not the membership) so how can you not look at your job security and think well a tweak here a tweak there and that me safe? It might not be right or moral but they don't pay the mortgage & car loan

It ought to be the BALPA PN job to provide oversight as they are employed by BALPA and not the company and as such are not/ should not be influenced by such issue's

Having only ever met one of them at bmi regional years ago, i thought she was nice enough but useless with little or no understanding of the airline world and seemed she would be better suited to be human rights lawyer like that Chicrabarti lass or what ever her name is that always pops up on the Beeb when they lock up some Islamist with a hook that wants to see the end of everything Western apart from the hand outs and benefits

Remember if you don't like what your CC do, you should stand for the council yourself not moan when they get it wrong (for you)

[acbus1]

.....to be replaced with UHT milk jiggesr that have been on the aircraft for months and that the cabin crew says tastes like cold sperm!!
Does you-know-who have an opinion, or is he keeping it zipped these days?

[TartinTon]

MANPMI seems to have disappeared for Summer 10. I thought this was a year-round route for WW? :(

[aidoair]

Yep, that seems like another cut. It was still bookable untill at least last week when I last checked. I feel the MAN base has been probably the biggest hit through these latest cuts. As much as I like bmibaby and see the potential they have, I feel that the MAN base could ultimately be closed by the end of this summer. W-routes could perhaps operate there but I feel they have really let their operation slide at MAN. A base which could have been their best performing or at least one of their biggest until just the pass couple of years they have given it all away to LS and EZY...

Again just my opinion but i'm sure there is some truth in there somewhere.

Aidoair :ok:

[TartinTon]

Hmm...I don't think it's LS or EZY...MON seem to outcarry all 3 of them on competing routes

[INKJET]

The problem is that there are far more routes that baby could fly (from 4 bases) than they have aircraft at least for now, so something must give.

baby didn't close MAN,CWL or BHX or pull everything into EMA for a reason, if they can get things right this year they will have access to Luffty owned aircraft next year.

LH focus for now has to be bmi international the brand is knackerd in part because of baby's sucsess (Google bmi and you'll see what i mean) and NT new business model, so its no longer seen as a premium product in the way that diamond class was in BD days in the 90's

The problem is that the damage is done and their is no way back for the brand, even culling the baby wouldn't change it, so what to do?

Well if i were Wolfe i would re brand bmi international but starting a new name now would just be seen as Oh that was bmi, i would go with Swiss, its a name that is respected for quality and would if bmi improved the product offering attract a premium, it would also simplify the LH structure.

There is IMHO no way back for bmi, that i am sorry to say is NT legacy

As for baby i would pay Bab's Cassini £3m a year for 3 years to run baby

[cortilla]

i'm feeling very odd about baby. I used to be ground crew for a company that handles them at one of their bases and i know alot of their crew. I also told Mrs C that she was fine in booking on one of their flights in a month's time for a wee skiing holiday.

Whilst I'm completely convinced that they will keep operating in the forseable future i have absolutely no faith in LH keeping them going beyond their current programme. Why would they. LH have never made any bones about the fact that all they're interested in is the LHR slots of mainline.

If you're not FR or EZY in the UK then low cost is a dead duck. You either go the way of BE in Niche markets that the Q400 can cope with and stuff apart from charters that keep the 195's busy or you go the way of LS and dump the city routes post haste and turn yourself into a quasi charter airline.

Baby are a wholy low fare subsidiary (notice i said low fare not low cost) of mainline. Unfortunately their focus is on city pairs such as AMS BFS ABZ EDI MAD BCN FCO etc etc that just aren't lucrative anymore since the pound crashed against the euro. City pairs are no longer an option if you're not FR or EZY.

Don't get me wrong i'd love it if the great team at WW were kept in work but the glory days of baby were 2004,5,6,7 and they are now unfortunately over.

I'd love to be proved wrong but my prediction is there won't be a winter 2010 programme. That doesn't mean that the excellent people at baby will be out of work but the brand BMI Baby will be no more.

[INKJET]

The 2010/11 will be on sale in around 6 weeks time and word is there will be a few more winter routes plus more charter work

Baby's cost base is falling due to the expensive lease aircraft ending their term and the other measures being taken to cut winter crew cost through seasonal working, in effect a 30% pay cut as few baby pilots do more than 600 of 900 hours allowed anyway.

Whether it will be still within the LH family? i think the answer is Yes

Baby will break even this year (a profit before re structuring costs) and a profit for 2011 should be on the cards

[mathers_wales_uk]

There are a few encouraging signs that shows WW will hold on for a bit longer.

The 737-500 with the new tail logo
The two 737-300 aircraft that remained in the fleet which were due to leave.

So what do Bmibaby need to do? When they sort out their operational and logistical issues and become profitable again then is the time that mum (LH) will put money into the company and allow them to be like a lo-cost/lo-fares airline should be.

Don't forget that LH own germanwings so they know how a lo-cost arm of a large carrier should work and WW will be turned into something similar.

But they need to keep aircraft moving in the winter and need to fly where passengers want them to fly.

[OliWW]

not only the B735 being painted, but one of the B733's is having a paint between the 21st - 26th Feb up in Manchester, so we will be seeing 2 of the new tails flying about

[mathers_wales_uk]

Looks like their rolling it out slowly then. Are we looking at seeing the newer large logo being rolled out accross the fleet too?

[OliWW]

Im guessing that it will be the "newer" B733's to get painted if any, so YF, YG, YH, YK...

Though going to MAN next week could well be a B735, as the details just stated a B737.

I think a aircraft is also booked in at EMA at the end of March and one in April after that aircraft?? needs confirming though

[cym]

Think there is a good chance that CWL will bite the dust come October 10. Their flying programme this winter has been minimal with very low.

In my opnion they will either need to rethink CWL (and up their game, which they should have given that TOM used to be a big loco player at CWL in previous years) or just pull the plug and let someone else have a crack at CWL

[OliWW]

They will probably leave CWL and move to BOH to stop flybe getting in there as well!

[mathers_wales_uk]

Well if Oliww is correct about winter 2010 schedule out in 6 weeks and more charters then we will have to just wait and see.

Yes CWL this winter has been a ghost town but with BFS not selling well and EDI being contested with by BE then it is not suprising thats it's been quiet.

Both GNB and GVA never really sold that well either hence GNB removed from all stations.

There is no need to operate aircraft on a loss just to have the flight number showing on the departure boards they may as well keep the aircraft on the ground. It makes commercial sence to me.

The issue that WW has at CWL is that for lots BRS can be as easy to reach as CWL. Now with Ryanair and Easyjet offering much lower base fares than WW with better times and frequencies they find it easier and more convenient to go to BRS.

WW don't really advertise at or around CWL other than the airport, 1 or 2 buses at Newport and Cardiff and on the ITV Wales Weather.

So with 2 based aircraft for S10 it will be very quiet for WW at CWL but i can assure you if WW pull out at last minute, it will be a while and lot of jobs will be lost before a replacement will come in.

Don't forget other than the big 2 (Easy and Ryanair no one is taking risks in this current climate)

[cym]

Mathers - agree with you that you cant operate flights at a loss but also bare in mind that aircraft sitting around does cost significant money too.

WW should have kept a much better service on both ALC and AGP running this winter as there was already a significant cax reduction yr/yr due to with withdrawl of TOM from these routes. The alternative is that there will be further slippage across the bridge

I dont want Baby to withdraw from CWL but do feel they need to up their game.

BOH for WW? Me thinks not - MOL has already marked that patch.

IMHO I think WW's retraction into EMA is a bad move. FR are already well established there and I feel will just take on WW route by route even if they loose money in the short term

[mathers_wales_uk]

WW would be paying reduced fees as they are based at CWL. Don't forget the operating costs for fuel, landing take-off, handling staff, crew, engineering, catering etc

If you getting lower than required operating proffit then it's better to cut your losses and have the aircraft sit on the ground generating a small loss.

Now if WW moved onto operating some charter flights then you could see more profits coming in similar to what Jet 2 and GSM used to do with their 737's.

There is a reason that the Charter airlines such as TOM, TCX etc are withdrawing out of the traditional spanish destinarions which is £ v Euro. A holiday to spain is not as cheap as it used to be hence Turkey now being added to most tour operators.

We are in a recession and until the airline industry comes out of it and passenger numbers start increasing again there will be a reduced need for flights to the likes of Spain and Portugal.

If WW brought in their 4th aircraft to CWL and not sent it to BHX then we would have had a greater offering of flights in the summer. And not just withdraw services to replace them for new destinations,

[INKJET]

All aircraft will adopt the large Billboard logo as and when they are repainted, like wise the new tail design, although each will be different. The two aircraft that have had lease extensions are only short term until Sept/Oct at which point German aircraft may come in.

If CWL was to be closed, then it would have gone by now in the last cull.

Traffic loads for most airports are down because of the economy and not helped by the £ v Euro, but that probably won't last as the Euro is starting to look weak and sooner or later the economy will pick up.

The aircraft don't have the legs to go to Turkey or the donk's to go in and out of Chambrey

There is room in this market for other than Easy or Ryanair, lates wait and see what spring brings

[OliWW]

How many aircraft will WW have in the fleet for S10 then, and how many will be at each base, got confused with 2 more staying now, I thought they had 14 originally...

[mathers_wales_uk]

I believe it was going to go down to 12 but LH has agreed to keep 2 extra so it would be 14.

All i know is there will be 2 x 737-300 at CWL

[OltonPete]

EMA 7
BHX 3
CWL 2
MAN 2

14 in total which includes the two short-term lease extensions I believe.

If the two "saved" aircraft depart by winter I will imagine it will be
EMA 5 or 6 or BHX 2 or 3.

Some flight timings need adjusting at BHX to get the schedule down to three and I noticed earlier a frequency reduction for BHX - ALC in April
and May, which indicates some schedule changes are in progress.

Pete

[cortilla]

I remember when i was a dispatcher for aviance in BHX there were at least 5 (to be honest i never really counted and oltonpete can correct me on the exact numbers) a/c based at brum. i honestly thought that the place would be the last place to go down to 2 or 3 a/c. I really thought that baby had bhx sown up (summer 2007). The company really could have made a killing at BHX and EMA but the larger powers that be just never seemed interested and so BE and FR sowed up the scheduled routes and MON, TCX and TOM took the charter work. I remember when stands 57, 58, 59 60 and 61 were the designated baby stands. Now i have no idea as i havn't been to brum in 3 years but guessing they're languishing on remotes.

[GayFriendly]

cortilla - I think in 2007 it might have been 7 based Baby a/c at BHX? I totally agree with you, Baby could have made a killing at BHX but alas now remain simply as a big lost opportunity. The arrival of FR seemed to be the start of the downfall then of course there have been major developments since with LH. FR in my opinion have not taken up the slack left by WW, they serve some of their sun routes but have shown no interest at all in city destinations, leaving a big hole in the BHX schedules.

As for actually seeing WW a/c at BHX again you are right - always on the remotes, at least when I have seen them

[Hudson Bay]

Several crew that were made redundant by bmibaby on 2 February are now being recalled. The company are encouraged by forward bookings and with long flying days forecast it looks like they got rid of too many staff. Good news at last.

[OltonPete]

cortilla

Sorry for the delay, I think BHX managed 8 briefly in 2008 but 7 for most
of the last couple of summers.

Hudson Bays last post is interesting, as yes I had heard crews would be stretched but also some summer flights have been taken off sale per other posts such as MAN-PMI, BHX-BCN and EMA-ORK.

I believe non of these are due to the reduction in aircraft (except perhaps BHX), as the schedules were adjusted a while ago for this but certainly the MAN two and the BHX three units were tightly scheduled with several eight sector days for the craft. Good utilisation but only if you have the crew I suppose.

Still very disappointing to see BHX-BCN taken off sale, as Ryanair have
reduced Reus from 5 weekly to two weekly and Girona is only four weekly anyway.

Baby had a rough January at BHX other than the two Med routes and Amsterdam but with Spring Fair in the first week of Feb and now half-term I believe things have picked up and Nice has restarted.

Just wished they could have held on to Rome, Lisbon, Madrid (and now Barcelona), as loads were fine even year-round but obviously the figures didn't add up and I am sure it will also be pointed out that no other operator has picked up any of these routes still.

Pete

[mathers_wales_uk]

Bmibaby seem to have a major problem that doesn't effect most if not all it's competitors.

The problem is that they are a lo-cost subsidy of another airline and able to freely act to the situations as it would if it was a seperate entity. It seemed as if Bmibaby was 3rd in the pecking order after Bmi Regional and Bmi Mainline.

Many airlines such as Easyjet, Flybe, Ryanair all proceeded with rapid expansion while the economy was strong while Bmibaby was only able to take on extra handfull of aircraft.

Growth was always planned at CWL but as the money available for leasing more aircraft was limited they had to react to other airlines and move the planned aircraft to another base.

There are plenty of routes that BmiBaby have been forced to axe from Cardiff which would work and should still be operational but due to a limited 3 aircraft and now 2 they are forced to only save the routes that generate the most amount of profit.

As the economy recovers i hope that LH will provide BmiBaby with the money to allow new lease of aircraft for rapid expansion and maybe we will finally see that 4th aircraft at CWL we have been promised so many times.

[cym]

Agree totally

TOM dropping the Loco market ex CWL should have been a driver for them to do so.

But they went for BHX - poor management me thinks

[Hudson Bay]

Is it me or is bmibaby's web-site including the booking engine aload of rubbish?

I find it very unfriendly to use and a lot of flights they are advertising just do not exist.

If I was a potential passenger I just wouldn't be bothered with it. In my opinion the I.T. department needs to sort this out promto.

[mathers_wales_uk]

Agree totally

TOM dropping the Loco market ex CWL should have been a driver for them to do so.

But they went for BHX - poor management me thinks


Going by what was planned for BHX before the 2 aircraft stayed maybe BHX wasn't as good a gamble as first thought. But when your 3rd in the pecking order it is never any good.

Tom pulling off City routes and reducing frequencies plus now TCX selling seats on some WW flights from CWL there is room for plenty of growth.

[anna_list]

Hi,

Given some of the recent discussions, I thought some of you might be interested to see a few pictures showing the development of bmibaby.

First up, here's the total number of movements at each base by year:
http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/3083/baby1t.png
In terms of movements, EMA and CWL peaked in 2003, MAN in 2006 and BHX in 2007.
I had forgotten how ambitious bmibaby were at the beginning at EMA: In 2003 they were operating routes like Pisa, Bergamo and Munich (all daily at one stage), Dublin (3 a day) and Murcia (daily). In the first half of 2003, they had up to 27 departures a day from EMA, compared to about 17 last summer. Presumably that figure will go up a fair bit this summer.

BHX peaked at about 25 departures a day in the summer of 2007. Last summer they were down to about 13 or 14 a day.

Here's the same data as a stacked chart:
http://img704.imageshack.us/img704/2848/baby2.png

Here's the total number of movements at each base by month, so that you can see the seasonality:
http://img715.imageshack.us/img715/6127/baby3.png

And finally here's the same data as a stacked chart:
http://img32.imageshack.us/img32/1021/baby4.png

(data from ACARS / CAA for BHX and MAN)

[OliWW]

Just got an email from bmibaby, my EMA - ORK flight in April has been cancelled, I phoned bmibaby and this is due to operational reasons, I am guessing, not enough aircraft?

Its not just April, no Cork flights are showing now on the website. Its naff! that I have to wait 28 days for my refund as well

[Charlie Roy]

Its not just April, no Cork flights are showing now on the website. Its naff! that I have to wait 28 days for my refund as well

Indeed, the route is simply getting axed in 3 weeks time.
I'm afraid that bmibaby deemed that you didn't deserve more than standard answer 17, which is bad form given they'll be earning interest on your money and giving nothing in return while you wait for your refund :ouch:

Meanwhile Aer Lingus will be laughing all the way to the bank now that they'll have a monopoly on the Midlands to Munster market with their BHX - ORK service...

[DomyDom]

Just received an Email from baby cancelling my flights to from MAN to Bordeux for 12th June. Email was titled flight cancellation but offered me flight times there and back on the same day.:confused: I've contacted their call centre to obtain a refund. Presumably this means BOD has been knocked on the head. Really dissapointed as WW were a class act with some interesting destinations but unfortunately what with the 'unusable' website and determination to get rid of aircraft, this isn't the way to return to good health. I have a feeling that LH are only interested in germanwings and if you don't want to fly from Cologne they are not interested.:ugh:

[mathers_wales_uk]

I hope it's scalling back during the recession and that when things start to pick up there will be new lower cost leases to aircraft, which may allow for more aircraft than before.

[Hudson Bay]

DomyDom

You hit the nail on the head.

THE BMIBABY WEBSITE IS UNUSABLE

Does the CEO (CR) not check the website from time to time and kick someones butt when it doesn't work?

[jubilee]

It must be bottom of the league for flight booking sites in this country.
Jubilee

[aidoair]

Agreed, this website really can't be helping baby. I guess it had good intentions but it really has had a bad impact. I can't believe the amount of people to notice and to actually even comment about a website. I really cant understand why the airline has not done anything to sort it. They obviously don't even look at their own website, the largest income of business to any low fare airline! Their previous website must have been one of the easiest and fastest airline booking sites in the industry. Don't fix what is not broken comes to mind...

[FLAPS 10-100]

I find that in the UK these days. Its more like. If it aint broke fix it till it is!!:ugh:

[aidoair]

I find that in the UK these days. Its more like. If it aint broke fix it till it is!!:ugh:


:ok: That couldn't be more true !

[Angry Kid]

Heres a thought - instead of slagging off the bmi baby website on here, try informing them whats wrong. The website probably works their end and they would benefit from useful feedback? Comments like "its unusable" are not helpful - I assume someone from the company comes on here and will see it?

[nivsy]

While your logic does make sense Angry Kid - I just wonder if the same load of "clowns" are involved in the IT for the mainstream BMI?

That booking window etc is probably just as bad as the BM Baby one and has been for ages...and I think they know about it - especially from Diamond Card members who constantly see it crash on them.

I would suggest that both the mainstream and its baby have lost a fair chunk of business of late with this IT inadequency - I guess they have never heard of risk management and mitigation...


Nivsy

[aidoair]

Heres a thought - instead of slagging off the bmi baby website on here, try informing them whats wrong. The website probably works their end and they would benefit from useful feedback? Comments like "its unusable" are not helpful - I assume someone from the company comes on here and will see it?


I have done just that, me and a friend who is much more of a regular with WW have written letters to them. We explained that we are not the only ones that find the new website poor, but comment on how many other people have actually agreed. I also don't see us as being the only ones to do have done this, though we havn't heard anyting back, not even in the form of a standard letter. We will try to carry on and persevere with the website for now though because the service baby offers along with most of their crew is great, and it would be unfair to take this out on them. Hopefully someone in the head office should get their act together and get intouch with the IT department sharpish and even maybe take a look at this site once in a while :ok:!

[Hudson Bay]

Is it not the responsibility of the CEO in charge of bmibaby (Mr Rix) to check on the performance of each and every department including the operation of the booking engine on the website? I for one believe he is failing in his duties by allowing this sort of thing to happen.

I hate to think how much business has been lost due to a website that does not follow a logical path. I know of 2 families that have tried to book flights with baby but got so frustrated with the booking system that they went elsewhere.

This has to be a priority, it needs to be addressed now. Not Monday, NOW.

[fanrailuk]

Totally agreed! The website re-design is completely inadequate to the needs of the consumer, i.e. those that fly bmibaby! It's slow, awkward and clearly doesn't satisfy the needs of 'wannabe' passengers of a low cost airline...:ugh:

Something needs to be done about the website, and fast!

[INKJET]

Not sure where you are coming from or your agenda on the bmibaby website, if you are looking to book a flight as a passenger it is very easy, if however you are trawling through looking for route or timing changes to work out what aircraft are doing what, then i agree its not as easy as before, but the site is designed for customers not Ppruner's!!

It takes a little longer to load maybe an extra 2 sec on my Window's 7 laptop for the first page, graphic's i suspect?:rolleyes:

[Hudson Bay]

Inkjet

Work at bmi I.T. ?????

You are on your own on this one judging by all the other posts. Lets face it the website booking engine is confusing, slow and frustrating. In the modern world when 95% of all bookings are made through the website, the process has to be quick, simple and clear. bmibaby's website is anything but.

I do not have an agenda, why should I? Somebody else began this thread and I am putting my slant on it. Sorry if you don't like my views.

[goldeneye]

I have to book flights on most of the low cost airlines every week. bmibaby has gone from one of the best to the worst. Easyjet is by far the Simplest. Jet2, Flybe and Flythomascook are awkward, and Wizz is just a nightmare.