Bmibaby

[Copenhagen]

The future of WW really depends on the performance of BMI itself. Their all eggs in the gulf / north africa strategy really has to pay off this summer, and that depends on how quickly these markets settle after the ongoing battles.

[Cazza_fly]

Well the new 3 x daily route started today and was welcomed to Stansted with a water canon salute from the fire brigade. From inside contacts, the loadings have been good ex-Belfast and as we've been saying lower on the STN-BHD sectors. Though it's very early days, I hope they do really well on the route!!!

[Copenhagen]

STN BHD really needs a saturday - otherwise it's going to kill both yields and loads on other days of the week.

If WW think they can run a LCC service to a leisure airport without a Saturday service that is essential for football and for short weekend breaks let them at it. Its like half committing to the route.

Where is the aircraft on saturdays anyway?

[planenut321]

The aircraft is based at CWL on the Saturday. It flies BHD-CWL on Saturday morning, does rotations from CWL on the Saturday and Sunday morning and then operates CWL-BHD on Sunday evening.

[Copenhagen]

Are two sets of crew overnighting in Belfast for a week?

I thought that this was a low cost carrier.

[planenut321]

I was under the impression that it was a CWL crew who operated the STN rotations?

[aidoair]

Not sure about 2 crews but perhaps so.

I know that the aircraft switches back over in CWL after the morning BHD-STN-BHD has returned. The other CWL aircraft then operates CWL-BHD-STN-BHD-STN-BHD. So maybe the crew does those sectors, overnights, then does BHD-STN-BHD-CWL the next day?

As for todays flights, ive noticed they've been running nice and early though the 18:05 WW4204 is now showing an estimated 19:55 departure. That would mean it will most likely arrive back at BHD around 22:20. Ouch, wonder why???

[sealink]

First STN departed with 97 passengers this morning and yes 2 baby crews night stop.

[aidoair]

That would mean it will most likely arrive back at BHD around 22:20. Ouch, wonder why???


Noted it's pick up quite abit of time and the delay wasnt so long, maybe a slight tech problem? G-TOYJ operating this afternoon/evening services. G-TOYK was on this mornings.

First STN departed with 97 passengers this morning and yes 2 baby crews night stop.

Very good number considering it's such a new route for baby! Hope it carries on just as good then!

[BFS101]

Very good number considering it's such a new route for baby! Hope it carries on just as good then!
The other two STN flights were both booked to 37 today.

[Cazza_fly]

The other two STN flights were both booked to 37 today.

Similar numbers for the BHD bound flights too. Though this is usual on a high-frequency route so earlier on. . . If the numbers are still like this in a few weeks time then it's time to worry.

[Facelookbovvered]

one would expect Monday/Friday to be strong, if easy move LTN back to BFS i would expect loads to improve. Lets see what its like in a couple of months

[Copenhagen]

** caution Assumptions **

Ten rooms + ten overnight allowances = say £1,500

Average oneway fare, excluding taxes = say £40 = 37 seats just for overnight costs.

Thats the reason companies like FR, U2 and EI hardly have any overnighting staff anymore.

To absorb this much costs bmibaby must have a devious plan. Would make far more sense to base this crew in BHD, and over night two crews on day a week in CWL.

[Facelookbovvered]

I have to agree, but without any fleet expansion any crews forced to moved to Belfast would probably leave at the wrong time, ie just in to the Summer program and would soon find 73 employment, Jet2 are still short of crews for the Summer.

I would suspect any move to make BHD a base would be the end of CWL as a base.

I have no idea what WW are playing at, i just hope the people running it do? big picture and all that.

[Hull City AFC]

if easy move LTN back to BFS i would expect loads to improve


Funny you should say that as that is exactly what easyJet have done.

As of 9th May 2011, easyJet will return to Belfast International, leaving bmibaby alone with the Belfast City route.

Hopefully this will up the loads a bit more!. :ok:

[aidoair]

Changing the subject slightly, but according to MAN arrivals page bmibaby only have two flights from there today, both just being to and from Belfast City. I know we're not quite into the summer timetable yet but surely this cant be good for them???

[fanrailuk]

Does anyone know when bmibaby will release winter 11/12 seats from all bases (and BHD?) and if there will actually be anything at all on the cards for CWL and/or any potential new routes, i.e. the rumoured Canary Islands?

Many thanks :ok:

[planenut321]

I heard rumours that they will be published at the second half of April/beginning of May. Much later than previous years.

[Cazza_fly]

Does anyone know when bmibaby will release winter 11/12 seats from all bases (and BHD?) and if there will actually be anything at all on the cards for CWL and/or any potential new routes, i.e. the rumoured Canary Islands?


They desperately need extra aircraft to keep up with the market! If the 2 ex-TOM aircraft joining the fleet (though not increasing fleet numbers) are kept with the current engine thrust setting then they could potentially trial out new routes such as the Canaries. This of course does not mean that non of the other aircraft in the fleet couldn't have the engine thrust setting increased (I believe its just computer and paper work business but costs money?). The reason I say for them to trial it, is that someone mentioned on here before the reason why bmibaby have stated in the past why they have not yet operated such longer routes. Apparently they say such routes should be operated with larger aircraft than the 733, obviously with less seats to fill the cost of the ticket would need to be much higher than on say a 738 just to cover costs in the first place, economics etc etc...

In other news, three of the baby 737s are to have additional checks/inspections as outlined by Boeing: BBC News - Bmibaby carrying out 'additional' checks on Boeing 737s (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-12985727)

Shame they couldn't have had easyJet's ex737-700s, especially that lone one at Kemble :{

[INKJET]

Winter 11/12 should go on sale next week loaded mid week on phase 1 should be complete by weekend servers permitting

[Tight Seat]

Great rumour going around the Monarch crewroom that we are buying you guys at baby. Made me laugh.

[ZeBedie]

Well DLH would probably let baby go for £1, so who knows?

Edited to say: no disrespect intended to my possible future colleagues and if I'm wrong, feel free to let me know.

[Flightrider]

It is not the most stupid idea on earth. In the longer term, there are three companies vying for the same space in the market - Monarch, Jet2 and bmibaby - when there is probably only room for two. It would remove some duplication in the route networks at Birmingham and Manchester, put Monarch into EMA and CWL (it said it wanted to be in EMA, BRS and NCL so feasible that it could see benefit in an alternative) and equip Monarch with some smaller aircraft to keep frequency up during the shoulder and winter seasons.

The interesting point would be whether Monarch would want to blow its brains out on the baby domestic & short-haul services....

[NutLoose]

In scheme, but still awaiting Toy registration, ex Thomson fleet out for runs today.


http://i536.photobucket.com/albums/ff321/taylortony/baby3.jpg


http://i536.photobucket.com/albums/ff321/taylortony/baby2.jpg

[aidoair]

Great rumour going around the Monarch crewroom that we are buying you guys at baby. Made me laugh.


Oh Lord, not this rumour again!!!!!!

In scheme, but still awaiting Toy registration, ex Thomson fleet out for runs today.

Ooooh, its looking good baby! I believe it will become G-TOYL. Come on though baby get your livery upto scratch now across the fleet! I know it's easier said than done but it's over a year since this revised individual tail livery went ahead now!!!!!!

[OliWW]

ex G-THOP will be next... and I then believe it to be G-TOYH which I think is the last until next winter...

[Skipness One Echo]

They've already got a G-TOYH I'm afraid.

[mathers_wales_uk]

OliWW meant on the aircraft that are going to be painted in the now logo with individual tail livery if i'm correct.

Not relating on new aircraft / aircraft registration

[OliWW]

Yeh that is right, sorry if it wasn't very clear, ex G-THOP... (G-TOYN) will be painted in full livery, along with G-TOYH by the end of May as I've heard... don't hold your breath though!

[G-VCED]

I was going to suggest that they should make the baby look like its hanging on to the tail, looks like someone else was on the same wavelength here.

[EastMids]

I now recall where I think they got the idea for the new baby's head from... :O

http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/570000/images/_572903_smash300.jpg

[bmibaby319]

G-THOL Looking fresh in her new scheme, but that Monarch rumor is a complete load of rubbish.

[Facelookbovvered]

Have to agree, more likely that babay will end up with Jet2 than Monarch, having said that i can't see bmi getting shot anytime soon. Baby seem to be in a catch 22 the question is who needs who most?

Will baby ever be given the green light to expand, do they need to?

[Flypuppy]

but that Monarch rumor is a complete load of rubbish.

You seem very well informed for a schoolboy. What is the source of your information?

[ETOPS]

You seem very well informed for a schoolboy. What is the source of your information?

I think bmibaby319 works in the "office" with SKIPNESS ONE ECHO :D

[Flypuppy]

Tiny Town, Donnington Hall or Hastings House?

[Little Blue]

I think you'll find there will be no baby at Tinytown in the next month or so....they are all being moved back to Hastings House....what a waste !

[Flypuppy]

Fully aware of that, the bun fight for desk space has already begun with IT moving downstairs at HH...

[Skipness One Echo]

I think bmibaby319 works in the "office" with SKIPNESS ONE ECHO
Play the ball and not the man mon ami. I work in an office that keeps the money coming in for the airlines. Enough said on an anonymous forum thank you.

[Cazza_fly]

Rumours internally and now externally about an announcement from the bmi group expected soon. Could it be some good news such as the long awaited new aircraft at bmibaby or something totally in the other direction?

[mn06]

I know these were announced a couple of months ago, but I was just wondering. If the routes to PRG and CGN have now been stopped for this summer what replaced them? Are there any plans to bring back PRG?

[EI-BUD]

A large organisation like LH works toward the long terms and I sense that if they were planning major culls etc of say Baby why would they be investing in paint jobs for aircraft such as we saw last week. I would imagine that in advance of any announcement it would seem likely that all spending of this nature would be put on hold. LH would be planning some time ahead and I sense that snap decision are rarely made.

VS has been very active in terms of trying to sell the business, would it be the news that VS is selling and bmi and VS are to come together to make something bigger? If this was the case would WW or regional have a place in that make up?

EI-BUD

[easyflyer83]

EI-BUD, but very few people within an organisation would know about any impending change and as a consequence, operationally, the airline would continue as normal and i imagine this includes paint jobs. In any case, a paint job isn't really an expensive matter on the grand scheme of things, especially if it was due a repaint. Wasn't it ex TOM anyway?

[ETOPS]

Manchester base closing - crew given 30 days notice a few minutes ago.

[Cazza_fly]

Manchester base closing - crew given 30 days notice a few minutes ago.


Wow!!! Very sad news! This is very bad too as they have just recruited a bunch of new crew for tha base! How heartless bmibaby! As many of you on here have probably noticed, I have been a fan of them but this is not good! :mad:

[ETOPS]

Manchester and Cardiff - crew given 30 days notice this morning.

[pug]

New base opening somewhere?

[ScotPilot]

How many pilots and cabin crew do they have at these bases?

[dwlpl]

Apparently moving it to Belfast City.

[Cazza_fly]

Apparently watch this space again too.... :confused:

Looks like CWL base is gonna be fully wound up along with Manchester. I know they wanted to concentrate on the Midland bases only, but they will now have lost alot of repspect from loyal and potential customers by doing this... which as we all know word of mouth and repeat business is key to this industry! Obviously they are not going to be allowed any new or extra aircraft anytime soon or could this be the space to watch.

[GnRdL]

And new routes from Belfast City, no?

Like Alicante for Summer 2012

[Cazza_fly]

Yes 7 new routes from BHD include AMSTERDAM, MALAGA, ALICANTE, GENEVA, FARO, PALMA and IBIZA. Stansted, East Midlands and Birmingham all stay too with Manchester. But seriously, what is the point of a 1x daily service to Manchester when we have the likes of easyJet from BFS and upto 7x daily flights from Flybe!!???

While these new routes should be celebrated, the fact that MAN and now most likely CWL bases are being closed down, it is very sad news for all those involved at those bases!

[sam1993]

Cardiff base to close at the end of the summer schedule as well...
Bmibaby pulls out of Manchester and Cardiff - ttglive (http://www.ttglive.com/c/portal/layout?p_l_id=3208370&CMPI_SHARED_articleId=4670822&CMPI_SHARED_ImageArticleId=4670822&CMPI_SHARED_articleIdRelated=4670822&CMPI_SHARED_ToolsArticleId=4670822&CMPI_SHARED_CommentArticleId=4670822&articleTitle=Bmibaby%20pulls%20out%20of%20Manchester%20and%2 0Cardiff)

[SevernTMA]

69 at FF reports the BBC.

[Seljuk22]

That's what bmibaby says
bmibaby.com route update (http://www.bmibaby.com/bmibaby/news/2011/bmibabycom_route_update.aspx)

[INKJET]

Sometimes in life you have to make unpleasant but necessary decisions, I think that this is such a time at baby. With 14 units and no sign of additional or newer aircraft for next year, then CWL & MAN would never make money with only a couple of aircraft each.

Whilst many will slag them off, they have at least been honest in not putting flights on sale that will now be cancelled and from a customer point of view that adds confidence, one only has to look at what both Ryanair & Easy did last year! so no customers will have to apply for refunds or rearrange their holiday or business plans, for that i applaud them.

BHD & Costa's are a risk, but its early days and there is ample time to tweak the program if required (11 months-ish)

So before everyone gets excited, remember Easy culled EMA and look that way at NCL Ryanair culled BHD & MAN to name but a few. It is a mature market with no growth with the highest environmental taxes in Europe plus oil North of $125 d/pb

As for CWL lets see who takes up the challenge, Globespan tried at MNE! still nothing there!

[AIRPORT66]

Nothing to celebrate on these routes already operated from BFS cant see EZY EI AND LS sitting back on this one think its big bad move at BHD.

[dublindispatch]

I really dont think that Northern Ireland needs any more flights to any of these places, other cities area available!!! MAD,CPH,VNO,SVO just as a wild selection. Why on earth to all airlines that use NI airports like lambs to the slaughter keep all going to the same place only for a price war to follow and they all pull out again!!!

[davidjohnson6]

dublindispatch - agree with you on MAD and CPH, but have some doubts as to whether the market is ready for a Belfast-Moscow route. While there are rumours, no LCC has *yet* announced a London-Russia route. Wizz may fly to/from the Ukraine, but even they haven't done anything to Russia yet. And no, I doun't think a Belfast-Lappeenranta route would work :)

[Phileas Fogg]

David,

Wizz set up a Wizz Air (Ukraine) company to be able to operate in Ukraine, it is not an EU LCC operating those Ukraine routes, it is a Ukrainian Wizz Air operating them.

[Cyrano]

While there are rumours, no LCC has *yet* announced a London-Russia route.
Don't want to veer off topic for too long, but unless the Russia-UK bilateral has been renegotiated recently, that's not going to happen. IIRC the bilateral is very restrictive both in terms of operators on LON-MOW (only two airlines can be designated on each side - and those are BA, bmi, Aeroflot and Transaero) and frequency. The LCCs would love to fly LON-MOW if they could - in addition to limited competition, they could legitimately fly overnight and push the aircraft utilisation up.

[Flightrider]

In true bmi style, they have announced the baby withdrawal from Manchester but kept one flight per day on BHD-MAN-BHD on sale in the system for the winter despite everyone reading in the press that they've pulled out.....what is the point of that?

[BFS101]

Seems to be confusion between pulling out of Manchester (pulling the base) and pulling out of Manchester (pulling all routes). I doubt a once daily BHD - MAN will last terribly long!!

[AIRPORT66]

Think what has happened is that WW have been fed a load of crap by the management at BHD.Time will tell but i would say at least 4 of those routes are non starters and wont last 6 months.

[Ringwayman]

Ryanair culled BHD & MAN to name but a few


is this the same Ryanair that's had about 5 new flights starting at MAN today? Methinks bmibaby have pulled out due competition at MAN from Ryanair and having easyJet starting BFS-MAN from October!

[sealink]

baby pulling out of MAN as the routes are seasonal, yes maybe busy in summer but a quiet baby base in winter. The baby MAN to BHD will be stopping after the summer schedule.

[Facelookbovvered]

Ringwayman

I doubt Ryanair even figured in it, i would guess that the only reason CWL & MAN weren't closed in Rix's days was the view that as and when the fleet started to grow again, then aircraft units could be added to both, but the ongoing saga at bmi probably makes that unlikely anytime soon.

I suspect this will be a storm in a tea cup for MAN,few passenger will give a toss, there are plenty of other carriers at MAN including Ryanair.

CWL needs a Jet2 who can park aircraft up when not needed

[pe1699]

With effect from Oct,according to BBC Wales news.

[Mr A Tis]

Will be a bigger loss for CWL than MAN. The routes were chopped & changed far too often out of MAN offering no consistancy & very often over priced to the competition. This airline continues to chop and change seemingly unable to find the right niche market that would help it thrive. I wish everybody well at Baby, but the airline has a very very very long way to go before it becomes a UK version of Germanwings - I hope it happens in time.

[jpthomas72]

a UK version of Germanwings That's very hard as 4U is effectively the German version of Easyjet. When 4U was founded by LH in 2002, there were big gaps in the country's budget airline market. It was formed to counter EZY and FR expanding in Germany, which has mostly worked. EZY has a few strong-holds (e.g. SXF), but they are way below what they could have been. Same for FR, which is even partially moving out of Germany. The UK is a saturated market, there is just no space for WW outside a few niches, really. And needless to say, 4U has seriously more modern planes. I'm happy though they've resurrected EMA-CGN, which I thought wasn't making money. Making EMA-GVA more frequent I think would be a safe bet, maybe even a weekend BHX-GVA in summer. I'm not living in fairy-tale land, so shouldn't suggest BHX-SXF or BHX-CGN ('the cursed route').

[Belboy]

How many pax do baby carry at Cardiff annually? What does this leave at Cardiff, must just be mainly T/Os

[NutLoose]

Call me old fashioned, but are they shutting these two bases BEFORE the Olympics? , bearing in mind both have Stadiums that are going to be used for the Olympics, just wondered. :ugh:

[taffyhammer]

Bmibaby or for that matter BMI have never been known for their forward thinking; seeing as they are willing to terminate a route within months and in some cases weeks of starting it up; they more than likely have not factored in the olympics in to the equation!!!!!!!!!:ugh::ugh:

[planenut321]

I agree that a Jet2 operation would work for CWL. CWL needs a LCC to come in otherwise the airport is totally unsustainable.

The one thing that amused me is that Patrick Duffy (CWL MD) said that the door is wide open for FR...that would not of been his opinion the day before the baby announcement at all. FR and CWL are not on good terms and CWL would literally have to prostitute itself off to FR in order for them to come in.

I would doubt a carrier will replace CWL this winter, as its a really difficult time to start operations from any airport with the winter market being much smaller than the summer. Summer 12 would be the time to start a new LCC at CWL with enough time to generate good ticket sales.

Lets see what the management and Welsh Assembly Government can pull out the bag.

[moist]

Patrick Duffy - didn't he play Bobby Ewing in Dallas?? :D

[LGS6753]

...it seems to me that bmibaby are a total shambles.
They opened Manchester base, expanded it, and have now closed it.
They opened Teesside then closed it, despite having a loco monopoly
They opened Cardiff and have now closed it, despite having a Loco monopoly
They have even fluctuated their committment to Birmingham
There have been a large number of destination changes.
Their fleet is static, and pretty elderly.
Due to fleet type they have not entered the main winter market ie Canaries.
Their prices are not very competitive
Their 'add-ons' are very costly
A website redesign rendered their website difficult to use
The new routes they have chosen look difficult to make money on due to competition from much stronger airlines

In short, they are too small to compete, they have inappropriate equipment and an inconsistent stategy. I would not invest my money in them or even to fly with them, so I'm out. Sorry.

[ib26uk]

I`m sorry to any bmibaby staff - I have to totally agree with the above poster... Also from an armchair perspective...

[sealink]

LGS6753....... for someone who would not fly bmibaby.... you sure think you know a lot about them..... you say you would not invest in them and say their fleet is elderly.... well get off your armchair and invest in them and buy them some new aircraft if you think their current fleet is not up to the job !! Maybe if people flew with them and stopped giving them a hard time they would not have to close bases and relocate the " elderly " aircraft!!!!!!

[easyflyer83]

I agree with alot of the posters analysis. What really makes me laugh however is how posters here (and airliners) make out they are high and mighty. The "I'm not flying with them" is a perfect example. If they happen to fly on any given route the poster travels on in the future and the price is right, he'll be on it.

[sealink]

Too true easyflyer83.... i could pick out the pruners who rant and rave and when the price is right..... they jump onboard never mind the carrier!!

[belfastmark]

OK so I was looking at the new flights from Belfast to the sun next year.... They would seirously need to look at their prices, they are far from competitive especially early season, and the price off checking in a bag in truley rediculous, £48 quid... you must be joking. It is actually beyond a joke, I have paid less for flights to Portugal return before.... work that one out!!!!!!

You would think they would have realitively low prices, as no other airline has their seats out for sale, and would be a perfect way to catch some off other airlines customers. I know I like to be organised and if they where cheaper I would definitely book.....

[mutleyshriek]

Agreed, and thats why most people from Northern Ireland aint gonna fly with the baby.Too expensive with their bag fees and fees to check the bags in etc.dont think too many are gonna be beating a path to Bhds door.DOH.

[INKJET]

Not having a go at you personally, but yours posts and anti baby rage make you look like a , er well how can i put it? a Muppet.

Remember all baby prices include taxes and charges on the front page, there is no FR "compensation surcharge" no Jet2 "fuel surcharge" plus 22kg luggage allowance, all seats are allocated so no EasyJet scrum, their aircraft are old-ish, but far younger than Jet2 and their latest one TOYL was one of the last classic off the line and is younger than the early NG's

Finally 10's of thousands of NI ers do fly with baby every month and come back time and time again.

As for chopping and changing, guilty, but Ryanair pulled MAN last year and are coming back, Easy culled EMA are slowly doing the same at NCL

If you don't understand the business, then i suggest you ask question to help your understanding, instead of Muppet like rage and claiming to speak for the whole of NI

[macdo]

BMIBaby has only one long term chance, that is to be sold off. New money, new management, new direction.
Otherwise, its going to be death by a thousand cuts.

Very sorry for staff, as ex-BMI, and when I was there mid nineties it was an outstanding business, very hard nosed, but at least there was a plan and it made some money. Even Baby was good when it first got going.

[Miss Management]

The prices comments above - just remember, an airline will charge what they can get away with, balanced by market forces. This is not a charity and if people want to fly and are prepared to pay that price then business is done.
If you think the price is too high, you won't be travelling - end of!

Regarding opening/closing bases. A business has to continuously re-evaluate where it gets its revenue from. Obviously when they open a base they forecast that it is worthwhile financially, when they close it it is not. End of story. An airline is not a love affair, it is a business. It is only by opening/closing bases starting/stopping routes strategically, that this airline has survived this far.
Under Luftie who knows what can happen and who pulls the strings and directs the flow.
If it is a viable business it will survive, if not then it won't.

[compton3bravo]

Sorry NutLoose the Olympics are only on for TWO weeks and I do not see that making any difference to Cardiff's problms or am I missing something?

[NutLoose]

Two weeks that it actually might be busy though bringing in people that may previously not thought of visiting the area...


As all of the Baby fleet have names, whats this one then?

Blind and Mute Baby?
Undercover baby?
Stealthy baby?

http://i536.photobucket.com/albums/ff321/taylortony/Babyless.jpg


:p

[UPS@EMA]

Two weeks that it actually might be busy though bringing in people that may previously not thought of visiting the area...


As all of the Baby fleet have names, whats this one then?

Blind and Mute Baby?
Undercover baby?
Stealthy baby?



Paul Stoddart air i reckon ;)

[Skipness One Echo]

Easy :

unwanted baby

or

incomplete baby

[daz211]

Who ever came up with the saying " all babies are Beautiful " need to think again .

Name - One ugly baby.

[Cazza_fly]

As all of the Baby fleet have names, whats this one then?


Was 'Ice Ice Baby' all though been WFU as end of lease, replaced by 733 G-TOYL ex-G-THOL with TOM

[G-VCED]

Saw the tail of KD at 5am this morning in the twilight, with no eyes or mouth, looked kind of spooky.

Wonder why Paul Stoddart wants this a/c?

[xtypeman]

Resurect European and fly for Palm Air................

[Waterbabe22]

Bye, bye baby

[FR-]

Ryanair already have that one, ei-dln :E

[mutleyshriek]

InkJet,why did you not reply to my post on the Bhd thread.Of couse I understand the business ive worked in for the last 16 years.As I have mentioned I worked for the said group for a long time.I do not whatsoever protest that I speak for the whole of NI,I havent lived their for a long time.I am having open and honest debate as I know the comany all too well.I have found your post to be rude and offensive so I have reported it to the mods.

[clareview]

Seems to me baby is doing the same thing that EI did when it arrived at BFS - trying to "steal" market share from established players on a route e.g EI went head to head with Easy on Amsterdam but soon gave up. Baby is now going head to head with Easy to Ams only from BHD rather than BFS. EI got its fingers burnt and soon had to retrench - will baby have to do the same - at its prices I cant see it growing the market?

[INKJET]

Sorry you took the hump

Perhaps if you worked for said group (bmi) for so long you were part of the problem? not the solution going forward, we inherited a right muking fudel and are doing our level best to sort it out. BHD may or may not work, however Summer 2012 booking are already showing promise across all route bar IBZ, but that tends to be a late market.

[belfastmark]

Clareview i agree what you are saying about baby trying to steal passangers just like aer lingus.. however i think aer lingus have now found their niche...(it took them a while) the canaries and seem to be doing very well at it.. So maybe we will see baby pull routes but replace them with new routes that are not served in time to come?

Though a quick check at BABYS prices they certainly will not be stealing many passengers.. I am going to portugal in Aug this year paid 150 with aerlingus... and could have got them cheaper if we had off booked earlier. Baby for next Aug, 16 months away a whopping 200 quid.... I DONT THINK SO!!!!!!!!! And the service and comfort from Aer Lingus is miles ahead of BMI Baby.

They need to look at their fares..... They should really be taking advantage off the fact no other airlines have released their summer flights for next summer and getting people to book with them...

Just to set the record straight I am not a hater of them or BHD and really think it is good they are starting flights to Europe, just not going to pay the redicous prices i.e 50 quid to check in a bag, people are not daft and we know when we are being ripped off!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[mutleyshriek]

INKJET see your still having a little pop."maybe you where part of the problem",please explain.
No I certantly was not.I was their at the the beginning when we had a focus and everyone was excited about their future.We joined star launched baby and replaced commuter with regional erj145s.Transalantic from MAN which made a profit from freight alone and set up our own training dept at MAN.Then came along James Hogan,again,and the rest is history.
Revisit your posts before you come on here and have the front to namecall anyone a ****in muppet.

[gio737]

I think closing Manchester and Cardiff are the best thing baby have done for a long time now. Ever since both bases opened they've seemed half hearted bases with routes coming and going and no real consistency. Teeside was never going to work, it just seemed they were trying to expand anywhere.

The new routes at Belfast City are not inspiring to say the least, however, I think there is just enough to keep them going there, and maybe add more interesting routes in the future.

By concentrating on East Midlands, Birmingham and now Belfast City, they will be able to consolidate and expand in a more consistant manner.

[mutleyshriek]

Gio are you for real ala BHD.Watch out for the big reaction..its coming.How can anyone gloat on bases closing.Think about peoples lives and mortgages and bills to pay.How can you seriously state that this is the best thing WW have done.They are taking a big big gamble with this.a very big gamble and the staff as always with the BMI group are just tossed aside again.Its a low cost airline now who are retrenching and are desperate,they are sure gonna be gone in 24 months time.Another massive loss of 156 million euro aint looking good for the group this year again.Could say more but cant,but I do know the deal with BHD.So sorry though,according to INKJET im a muppet who should ask questions about the industry ive been in for sixteen years plus.

[Facelookbovvered]

Your unbelievable man!!

In one breath your calling Gio for gloating about base closures, which he isn't, then you say they'll be gone into 24 months, have you been drinking from the fountain called bitter ex employee? and why are you Bovvered either way

[AirLCY]

I agree with Gio. However awful it is for the staff involved, baby is a business and has to do what it does well and the Midlands is a much stronger area for them.

[EI-BUD]

EI went head to head with Easy on Amsterdam but soon gave up. Baby is now going head to head with Easy to Ams only from BHD rather than BFS. EI got its fingers burnt and soon had to retrench - will baby have to do the same - at its prices I cant see it growing the market?

Certainly some truth in this that EI did get their fingers burnt but it is also worth remembering that the AMS route had way too may seats available, and EZY itself did badly in the period where EI and EZY had to share the numbers. EI's challenge was at that time that most peope identify that EZY was so well established in the market. It is fair to say that EI could now operate some of the closed route at lower frequency and do alot better than before given that their presence in the market has improved.

As far as WW high pricing is concerned, I would suggest the expansion in BHD Europe market had to be sold to LH board as a profitable move, and I would imagine that management took sold it that BHD was niche given its proximity to the population of Belfast etc. Hence to some extent feel they can command a high price. In addition, if they can get some of the seats sold in advance at attractive price they will have some scope to compete in early 2012 when EI and EZY put on seat sales, at some of the frequencies to the sun route I cant see a huge impact on the market. EZY will compete heavily on AMS and interestingly EZY have increased frequency as of summer season on AMS first increase (1 extra per week?) since it went daily so one would wonder have then know in advance that WW were coming to the market?

EI-BUD

[Thad Jarvis]

Baby's baseline seat price on Europe from BHD is running about £40-50 higher than Easyjet and that's without an orange seat sale. Given that in the past BHD has been subject to some pretty eye watering parking charges too I don't see their new operation as anything of a bargain. They will have to review this strategy after the airlines at BFS launch their 2012 seats or they will be left behind. I suspect Jet2 will blink long before either Easyjet or Aer Lingus. I would predict though that where AMS and GVA are concerned, waking the orange dragon is a mistake and it expect that to get messy.

[BFS101]

I see the Thomas Cook Group use WW for Malaga and Alicante flights from East Mids. Not sure if these are chartered from WW or an allocation on scheduled flights. If its the later, I wonder would Thomas Cook take an allocation on the Med flights from BHD. Would give Thomas Cook customers the choice of the City Airport, supplement capacity from BFS, but also help baby fill the seats.

TCX have dipped their toe in the BHD market with Reus last year and returning this year. If this has proved popular, could this be a way for Thomas Cook, or another tour operator to have a fairly substancial programme from BHD, but not having to use their own metal. Do WW tend to work closely with tour operators??

[mutleyshriek]

Facelookbovvered,no im certantly not a bitter ex employee.Totally the opposite in fact.Was too glad to get out of the place,as for gloating on base closures you lot need to get a grip cause the babys gonna be gone sooner than you all think.People will be affected again.

[egnxema]

mutleyshriek you need to get a grip mate!

You may need to take a deep breath before reading what follows:-

No company exists for the benefit of employee mortgages or families. Cold, I know. But the truth.

Companies exist for one thing - to make profit.

If you find this cold brutal fact of western life difficult to come to terms with maybe it is time you either a) become a monk, or b) sell all your material goods and focus your life on charity work.

In the meantime, grow some balls and get on with the current economic downturn with some grit like millions of us are!

FFS!!:ugh:

[Cazza_fly]

Well it looks like they have started to give there website a refresh or at least the homepage...

With it they have started some new offers, some which i feel they will probably keep to help differentiate themselves in the market just like they did with their now standard 22kg minimum hold luggage allowance at the beggining of the year.

...Though 'Tiny' in a futuristic rocket/aircraft maybe slightly misleading to what passengers will actually get on ;);)!

[caaardiff]

Have WW actually forgot they still fly from CWL-BHD daily?
Not listed on the UK destinations on the "future of flying" section.
Thankfully they haven't completely forgotten CWL and show the Spanish destinations!
:ugh:

[nospeedrestriction9]

I notice no operator is rushing in to continue any of the WW Spanish routes.

Should be a quiet winter at CWL

[planenut321]

The baby pull out was only announced 2 1/2 weeks ago for CWL...give it some time. The Spanish routes are really money makers and will be really surprised if no one jumps in on those. A new airline may not be announced till later this year as I very much doubt they would start CWL ops. for the Winter 11 season. Any 'new' operator will be known when airlines release their Summer 12 schedules.

[Facelookbovvered]

Free sweets

I flew back from Belfast with them between the everlasting bank holidays, they now offer sweets as you get off the aircraft !! Nice touch I thought, they probably cost next to nothing, my partner did comment are these for free? Yes was the reply, take as many as you want! My partner will need to visit the dentist next!

[NutLoose]

As mentioned before, with the new tail logo, suprised their not handing out free packets of instant mashed potatos..... Cough cough :E
Wonder how much they paid the marketing agency?


http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/1355000/images/_1357091_smash150.jpg

[danielsirrom]

As an early booker for our family holiday to Palma this Summer I felt vaguely sick seeing those impressive new offers for bookings made during May(free allocated seating, 22kg allowance, free kids bags and free fast track at E Mids) however I felt much better on seeing the £950 all in price for 5 I paid has now risen to over £1650!.....I think I'll manage without the free offers ta!

[Hudson Bay]

Why are Bmibaby advertising on Granada TV (north west England) when they are closing Manchester?

[Cazza_fly]

Why are Bmibaby advertising on Granada TV (north west England) when they are closing Manchester?

They have done for a number of years among other regions... though they still fly from Manchester untill the end of October and TV advertising usually run on contracts so won't just end overnight.

[Hudson Bay]

They haven't advertised on tv in the Granada region for a long time and in any case this is a brand new all singing and dancing no cost spared advert. Doesn't make sense to me.

[Cazza_fly]

They haven't advertised on tv in the Granada region for a long time and in any case this is a brand new all singing and dancing no cost spared advert. Doesn't make sense to me.


It's an ITV regional deal so we will most likely see it across many of the different regions, it's bmibaby's latest advert and again they still operate from Manchester so I don't see the problem? However even if they didn't operate from Manchester I still don't see the problem as people can still travel to another of their airports. Here in the North/East Midlands and South Yorkshire area there are many adverts dotted around the streets and on the radio about easyJet... Yet they don't fly from Doncaster or East Midlands airport's anymore????

[INKJET]

The future of low cost flying add, is designed to drive sales this Summer and as baby will continue to fly from both CWL & MAN until the end of October this year it will continue to promote its flights in both of the above in addition to the much larger scale advertising being rolled out across the midlands.

The add is quite funny, i won't paste the link here for fear of falling foul of the Mods, but if you click on the bmibaby website, click on the space ship and about a quarter of the way down is the "here" link which then goes to you tube, have a look at the faces of the people in the slow lane as the baby pax wizz by in the fast lane!!

Just waiting to see the reaction to the new Summer routes for next year!;);):D

[GayFriendly]

INKJET do these new routes apply to both EMA and BHX? And why will there be a reaction to the new routes? A move from bucket and spade to destinations a bit more unusual? I really hope BHX gains as there are so many gaps in the European route map from there and Baby I think could be the ones to fill at least some of them :ok:

[INKJET]

Baby are on record stating that one aircraft from CWL will go to BHX and one from MAN will go to EMA with the other two night stopping in BHD, not based (yet)! so there will be new routes to follow from both EMA & BHX for next Summer.

I would expect some city break routes from BHX next year. There are some very obvious gaps at BHX.

I see FR have dropped BUD from EMA, will Jet2 or baby pick up that? always seemed busy, but with FR numbers mean nothing

[Cazza_fly]

Baby are on record stating that one aircraft from CWL will go to BHX and one from MAN will go to EMA with the other two night stopping in BHD, not based (yet)! so there will be new routes to follow from both EMA & BHX for next Summer.

I would expect some city break routes from BHX next year. There are some very obvious gaps at BHX.

I see FR have dropped BUD from EMA, will Jet2 or baby pick up that? always seemed busy, but with FR numbers mean nothing


Definately the ''supposed'' new routes from BHX to Rome, Barcelona and Lisbon are definately overdue at returning to BHX. Other routes im sure many people would like to see back in the network are Madrid and some French routes (i.e some of the soon to be ex MAN routes). I feel Budapest would most likely suit BHX better as they then could have BHX to focus on city routes and a EMA to have a focus on sun/holiday routes. Though as you have pointed out INKJET, if baby don't jump in on it at EMA then that leaves potential for LS, should they decide to add city routes at EMA in the near future?

[GayFriendly]

Have been trying to access the website since last night to change a flight with no success, I could access the site last night but nothing would load, this morning I can't even get on the site, the home page won't even load. Any ideas?

[TSR2]

The bmibaby website is working fine for me at 09.29.

[ZeBedie]

Monarch's still full of rumours that we're taking over baby, and that we have 9 737-800 on order to do flying from regional airports. Fits in with baby closing the MAN base.

[GayFriendly]

All OK now TSR2 - maybe my ancient laptop just can't cope with the future of low cost flying!

The Monarch/Baby rumour sure is an interesting one - but I have my doubts that it will go ahead, then again we don't know how keen LH are to get rid of them, they have made it clear in the past they are only interested in the profitable parts of the BMI acquisition. IF it did go ahead this could create quite a strong airline with a good range of key UK airport bases - wasn't there meant to be some big MON announcement across all the bases this week?

[mutleyshriek]

If it did go ahead as has been rumoured how interested would Monarch be with BHD ops.I believe the STN route is underperforming already.

[Mr A Tis]

I'd be very surprised - but stranger things have happened and I can understand Luftie wanting rid. So we could have Mr Monarch flying from Gatwick & Manchester with Baby Monarch from the other regions....:eek: and I've not heard of any Baby announcements planned in the near future.

[Sam1664]

Gayfriendly,

There is a big annoucment planned for the 25th May at 11am, management have told staff to set the date in their diary for exciting news regarding the future of the company, the annoucment will be broadcast live from the engineering hangar in Luton to all bases and key office locations!! Exciting stuff!! :ok:

[INKJET]

It is wise never to say never, but it's very unlikely

As for LH getting rid of the unprofitable bits of bmi then mainline would be firsat in line me thinks!!

[G-AWZK]

Low cost airlines rely on constant expansion, baby has done nothing but contract in recent years.
The fleet is ancient, fuel hungry and in desperate need of upgrade work (ACARS upgrade to comply with CPDLC, stringer AD's etc) which will cost at least a million quid per airframe.
Engineering work and some back office costs are covered by Mainline and accountancy jiggery-pokery.
From a pax perspective, the cabins are clapped out and generally fairly dismal. Fares do not in general have a big enough differential from full service carriers to be attractive and the Belfast half-base is just madness. The concept of Fortress Midlands is deeply flawed at best, hopelessly optimistic at worst.

There are a lot of good, highly talented people at bmi, sadly very few of them appear to be in upper management.

I am willing to bet that bmiBaby will not exist this time next year.

[INKJET]

Another Ppruner that's going to have to eat his hat!!

Your argument is deeply flawed, whilst FR model requires constant expansion WW do not, least you forget they are now part of the LH family which is the EU's most profitable airline group and have over 700 aircraft, WW pays it's share of engineering and back office functions not the other way around !

With a group fleet of 60 plus classic's do you really think we are unaware of AD's in the pipe line and dont have plan to address these issues?

Have a read back of the baby thread and every 6 months someone makes the same comment about "willing to bet they won't be here next year" history says otherwise!!

The ZB rumour more likely a smoke screen for acquiring LS it has been pointed out many times that there is nothing to buy at WW the aircraft are all leased all property is now with in Dony Hall and the name bmibaby could hardly bf used by anyone else ?

I think the Summer 2012 release will show you that they will very much be around next year, but thanks for your concern

[G-AWZK]

The word plan and bmi in the same sentence...:rolleyes:

Time will tell who is right inkjet, but DLH are not impressed with a number of things that are happening within the bmi group.

[flyingfrog]

G-AWZK - "Time will tell who is right inkjet, but DLH are not impressed with a number of things that are happening within the bmi group."

The source to back this statment up is.....what are they unhappy with then, The state of world affairs that are hitting the plan that they do have in place?

As it's LH running the show, your saying there not happy with themselves!

Have you had a bad expereince with WW by any chance? :ugh:

[BHX5DME]

BHX - LIS 2pw
BHX - BCN 4pw

Lots of expansion at EMA inc NQY, GIB & CFU.

[Cazza_fly]

BHX - LIS 2pw
BHX - BCN 4pw

Lots of expansion at EMA inc NQY, GIB & CFU.

Wow well done bmibaby!!!

Also, (I know its been going around while now but it's doing the rounds again) could the rumour regarding a couple of frames from sister bmi be related to the new services too? I know they will have 1 extra 733 at both EMA and BHX and I know the 733 is more than capable of operating these new routes, however it could help them with higher capacity.

[brian_dromey]

Some might remember WW did have use of one A319 and one A321 a few summers back - this was when WW operated about 6 (+2 BD frames) from MAN. I don't think there is the capacity at mainline to lend WW frames. Even at the weekends, as BD tend to send the short haul aircraft on charters and use the ERJs on the domestics. Unless BD pulls down a lot of the mid-haul flying over the next 6-12 months, BD frames operating for bAby is unlikely.

[G-AWZK]

G-AWZK - "Time will tell who is right inkjet, but DLH are not impressed with a number of things that are happening within the bmi group."

The source to back this statment up is.....what are they unhappy with then, The state of world affairs that are hitting the plan that they do have in place?

As it's LH running the show, your saying there not happy with themselves!

Maybe a little history lesson is needed here.

When baby was set up back in 2002, LH as a major shareholder did not want it created. Bishop, being Bishop, stuck two fingers up at Frankfurt and went ahead anyway, the reasoning being that it would be a blocker for EZY and FR at EMA. As it turns out, FR now have nearly as many aircraft based at EMA as WW have in their total fleet. When DLH were forced into buying the bmi group they did everything possible to stop the deal, and once they were forced into it, the first thing they did was try to sell it off, however the years of lack of investment didn't make it an attractive buy. Now that WW are living in Hastings House, instead of Tiny Town, it will interesting to see if any further cost savings will result. Given that the "strategy" seems to evolve on a day to day basis, and since the last financial figures were released the control of the group appears to be moving to Frankfurt rather than Donnington, I don't give baby much long term chance.

DLH have been looking for ways to offload baby since they got it, and there are some big ticket items coming down the chute that may well be the final death knell.

As to how I know this? Well I have been around a bit, and spent enough time on the third floor at Donnington Hall to see the writing on the wall and if you think that a low cost carrier model doesn't need to expand you are deluding yourself. The bmi group cannot sustain a low cost model, it has enough difficulty running a "conventional" airline.

[take_that]

G-AWZK

When you say the 3rd floor of Donington Hall, are you talking about past or present?

What is your prognosis then for Regional and Mainline? Obviously crystal ball may be getting a little burnt out with all these prediction;).

[INKJET]

Ah another ex employee!!

Nothing can expand for ever without contracting! even the universe, WW has been starved of investment for years, much of what you say about bish and LH is true, but times have changed, yes new aircraft are needed and coming but not until 2013-14

FR have 7/8 at EMA and 3/4 at BHX in other words around the same as WW so what?

3 rd floor at D Hall was a ( dead ) wood store for years

[nospeedrestriction9]

It is indeed true at LH did not want to buy BD, or certainly not for the price it was forced to pay, and invest since that time. LH was left with a company that was loosing money, required immediate investment, had an aging fleet and still suffering from years of under investment from Bishop.

We all need to bear in mind that LH have a new team in place, and a full recovery plan in all parts of the business. Surely we need to give them time to turn BD around before we start rumours?

[G-AWZK]

Inkjet,

you are making a lot of assumptions. Since this is an anonymous forum, it makes little difference what my current employment situation is.

FR have 7/8 at EMA and 3/4 at BHX in other words around the same as WW so what? So what you ask, well, I think if you have any understanding this demonstrates quite clearly that the concept of Fortress Midlands is ridiculous.

WW has no money to spend, so where the budget will come from to re-fleet is rather a mystery. DLH have been pouring money into a black hole for the past couple of years, on top of having to pay way way over what the group value actually was. At some point the shareholder will say enough is enough. Purely from a business perspective, baby is not generating profit and will need multi-million pound investment just to make it comply with legal requirements, never mind a new fleet.

So let us quickly summarise what we know:


DLH did not want WW to be created
DLH own a loss making entity they are hostile to
WW needs vast amounts of money spent on it just to maintain parity
The fleet is decrepit and needs replaced
The passenger offering is not wowing the public
Load Factors and yields are not wowing the money men


Does the move from Tiny Town to Hastings House tell us anything? I will leave that up to you to interpret, but I do not see it as a positive.

[cornishsimon]

Lots of expansion at EMA inc NQY, GIB & CFU.


have i missed something ?

NQY ? it was announced ages ago and only a few times a week during peek summer ?

cs

[nospeedrestriction9]

AWZK - I think you are being a little over dramatic - calm down dear!

Granted, LH did not want BD, however the idea of Fortress Midlands is pprune terminology, not BD terminology. It's been generated by those experienced pprune strategy analysts amongst you. BD created WW in the same way BA did with Go, it was all about protecting volume and getting in on the regional game before it was too late. LH also did the same with Germanwings that has also NEVER made a profit - and doesn't even come close!

The publically available annual report of LHG shows bmi group that isn't forecast to make a profit or break even until 2013 so why is everyone getting their knickers in a twist about a move to Hastings House, it was just clearly a move from an expensive office to floor space that is half empty. It makes commercial sense to me.... not the "beginning of the end" like some of you take pleasure in thinking.

[G-AWZK]

Fortress Midlands is PPRuNe terminology, not BD terminology
I heard it spoken about more than once in Tiny Town.

BD created WW in the same way BA did with Go, it was all about protecting volume and getting in on the regional game before it was too late.I beg to differ. It was a vanity project from Bishop, supposed to show EZY and FR that EMA was BD home turf. GO had a clear strategy, excellent management and the unequivocal support of the BA board. WW has none of that.

The nice video WPS showed everyone had a significant omission, any guesses what it was?

[Copenhagen]

Bmi have always had a fortress approach to EMA, and it is not just pprune terminology. Some things I remember:


When WX launched DUB EMA, BD switched from S340s to Fokker 70s

When Go announced their base in EMA, BD launched baby days later.


There a no mistake omissions from anything that LH does - remember what bases were mentioned at the last annual report?

Our german friends are very logical. In my humble opinion - the days of two bmi retail brands is nearing an end - the sevice levels are virtually the same, so why two marketing budgets - especially since they are often flying from the same airports.

[INKJET]

The issue of AD's is a re herring, WW fleet is leased and most are due to expire in the next 24 months, WW is only responsible for AD that fall within the lease period, unlike LH or Jet2 who own their classic fleet for there is no value with out the AD's having been completed, LH are already carrying out this work including replacing crown skins

No major investment is required to lease newer 737 or A319's LH are very logical and understand the strategy game well bmi have a major problem with it's focus on Arab and North Africa for sure but that applies to Austrian as well mean while WW have the lowest seat cost per mile in the LH group

Time will tell

[brian_dromey]

I think G-AWZK is getting a little over excited predicting the demise of WW. The moves that WW has made in the past few months suggests an airline that is trying to define itself in the marketplace. They have refreshed their brand, renewed their livery and website, launched a new 'base' at BHD, expanded where they are recognised - in the midlands. Just like Jet2 can be the LCC for the North, baby can be the LCC of choice in the midlands.

There are issues at Baby but bringing back BD mainline, or some sort of BD lite/BD UK regions,etc would probably add cost. Mainline offer *A benefits, free baggage, a two class product, etc. The WW marketing budget is probably less than the cost of this would be across the network, *A membership and a handful of status miles is not really going to draw too much custom to the Balearics.

There is nothing 'wrong' with the classics. Look at the job Norwegian have done with theirs. Overhead bin extensions, new ceiling panels, lighting, a deep clean and slimline Recaro's would transform the fleet from a customer point of view.

[le grand fromage]

G-AWZK
3rd floor at DH? Really....looks like you were in the clouds, given the offices ended on the 1st and the building ended on the 2nd! And there's one "n" in Donington.

As for the history lesson, it lacks some factual accuracy. I think you will find that some of the shareholders and Board were very keen to expand WW into a significant player but certain others were able to prevent it through the provisions in the shareholders agreement that allowed veto rights or required supermajority votes over significant expenditure or commitments. The critics of the lack of investment in BD and WW over the years have zero knowledge of the constraints which are imposed on both capital expenditure and long term commitments by a shareholders agreement which typically gives the minority shareholder (who might end up as the 100% owner) with lots of protection against big spending ideas of management and majority shareholders.

The set up of WW was of course done with existing BD aircraft and the consequences of not responding to the arrival of Go at EMA would almost certainly have meant the disposal of a large number of aircraft and the redundancy of large numbers of crew, another thing the critics seem to conveniently forget. A vanity project it certainly wasn't.

As for current strategy, I have no insider knowledge, but it is certainly a difficult position to be a small player in what is a scale game. Nevertheless the current team seem to be doing everything they can to keep things going and I wouldn't write them off just yet. As long as they don't cost LH any serious cash, they are unlikely to be closed down ( closure itself would be v expensive), sale to anyone is unlikely and for LH I imagine BD mainline is currently a much bigger problem to focus on.

[G-AWZK]

The moves that WW has made in the past few months suggests an airline that is trying to define itself in the marketplace
It has had 9 years to define its position and is still trying to do so. If a company still has not managed to define itself after that length of time...

In general EZY and FR do the whole Low-Cost thing so much better. They have brand new equipment and are dedicated to doing what they do, whereas WW are using clapped out old aircraft with interiors that desperately need a large investment, just to bring them into the same rough ballpark as the other players. The fares structure is not particularly attractive either. Baby was set up in a hurry (it took only 4 months) and has never really found it's feet or a specific niche in which to flourish.

I take no satisfaction whatsoever in writing any of this. The bmi group has a long and proud history but the years of investment starvation and anachronistic management styles are not helping in anyway towards a rosy future.

[arnoldk]

All very interesting but, buried in DLH's Q1 update, were losses of €63m for BMI in Q1 2011 alone.

Enough said.

[Skipness One Echo]

There is nothing 'wrong' with the classics. Look at the job Norwegian have done with theirs.

In the business, momentum is often a key driver. One starts with "classics" and moves up and expands with new aircraft. Ryanair began with One Elevens, moving to B737-200s then lots of B737-800s. Even Jet2 have moved onto the B737NG. Contrast with post LH owned Baby who continue to retract into core markets, in their own comfort zone. They are too fond of the Patented Airliners.net Magic Dartboard of Route Planning. Sporadic and random incursions into both business and leisure markets on random days with schedules that are often unreliable mean to many, they are a bit of a joke.

Even in their key markets, they are walking away from Manchester of all places, mainly because it's "not in the Midlands". To reiterate, they can't make money on leisure out of MAN, the #2 leisure market in the whole UK. That's not a strategy, that's a reaction. LH have been focusssing on tweaking all that's good about BMI mainline in order to put the LHR operation back into sustainable profitability. They have not put a lot of attention onto Baby while they look after the parent. My concern is that when they finally do focus like a German laser beam on Baby, the answer to the question "Why bother?" isn't a good one.

[INKJET]

It's silly season again!!

WW it's not with out it's faults but customer service is in a different league to Easy & FR to be clear a higher one.

LH know the cost of everything under their control

[Little Blue]

'G-AWZK
3rd floor at DH? Really....looks like you were in the clouds, given the offices ended on the 1st and the building ended on the 2nd! And there's one "n" in Donington.'


Hate to be pedantic..............but.....there is a third floor of the Hall, Bishops old boardroom? Plus, there is the mezzanine floor as well.

I was there at the beginning of baby, and only left two years ago and am alarmed at how far my how old 'airline' has dropped. If there is going to be any expansion, then sooner rather than later has to be the order of the day.

Otherwise the move into Hastings House may be a very short one. The next step may very well be the final one. Back to the Hall. I sincerely hope not.:sad:

[le grand fromage]

Little Blue I also hate to be pedantic, but I'm going to be. stand outside and count the windows/floors...there is no 3rd floor...the first housed the Directors and the Belvedere (board room) is on the second.

[Say again s l o w l y]

Are you standing at the front or the back of the building when you do your floor count?

I do work for bmi and whilst I obviously won't go into any real detail of what I know on here, there's a lot of truth on this thread unfortunately.

[Facelookbovvered]

I think the biggest threat to baby is bmi, Q1 losses are normal for most European airlines however these are big numbers and worse than the previous year, Easter being the second quarter does not help and the problems Egypt and other M/E countries continue to this day,only bmi could have the luck to launch Tripoli on a Monday and bin it on a Tuesday

I think the share holders will asking when will it be profitable? the irony is that bmibaby is probably in it best shape ever going forward having gone from a wart on the face of bmi to cute pimple

[ETOPS]

Sam 1664 wrote a few days ago...

There is a big annoucment planned for the 25th May at 11am, management have told staff to set the date in their diary for exciting news regarding the future of the company, the annoucment will be broadcast live from the engineering hangar in Luton to all bases and key office locations!! Exciting stuff!!

Well Sam, any news?

[Cazza_fly]

Well Sam, any news?

This announcement is regarding Monarch... ?

[G-AWZK]

My understanding is that due to the very very late arrival of the 787, Monarch have been offered 737NGs at a very very good rate by Boeing.

Finding experienced crews, in short order, may be tricky for a large increase in fleet size; so from a business perspective it could make sense for MON to buy baby for the 737 experienced crews. It would save time and training budget, would give them some ready made bucket & spade routes and I am sure the staff would have no problem readjusting to a new owner.

Just my uninformed conjecture.

[ZeBedie]

At the big announcement there was a denial of any intention to merge/takeover any other airline.

[fanrailuk]

G-AWZK might be spot on there with his quote, in part:

"Finding experienced crews, in short order, may be tricky for a large increase in fleet size; so from a business perspective it could make sense for MON to buy baby for the 737 experienced crews. It would save time and training budget, would give them some ready made bucket & spade routes and I am sure the staff would have no problem readjusting to a new owner."

Therefore, it would make a lot of sense first off for MON to be gunning for the soon to be redundant WW crew in MAN and also contemplating moving into CWL as there'll be a lot of crew, both flight deck and cabin, most likely praying for a new operator to move in to save their jobs?!

PP :ok:

[planenut321]

I think CWL may be a long shot. MON already in talks with BRS and ''apparently'' MON were in talks with CWL and MON walked out mid meeting... and ''apparently'' LS talks went badly for CWL too.

[INKJET]

There are no redundant WW crew in MAN or CWL all have been offered position in BHX & EMA, no doubt some will not wish to relocate and ZB & LS may be a consideration, ZB would be people first choice ( no pun )

[mutleyshriek]

Inkjet,you state no one is being made redundant at Man and Cwl.I think you need to get a reality check lad.25 bmi groundstaff at Man being layed off and 9 supervisors/duty managers are being made to re apply for 4 jobs.

[G-AWZK]

At the big announcement there was a denial of any intention to merge/takeover any other airline.

hmmm, so what conclusion do we draw from something denied by management? :bored:

[DomyDom]

I have some advice to save Bmibaby, reinstate routes at MAN/ CWL, provide a decent reliable service, open 'niche' routes to Bordueax, Perpignan and Lourdes and Montpellier from MAN or CWL (I know they did that but didn't advertise some of them until they decided to close them) - or otherwise forget it and go home now! Why is it that so much that customers want and makes good business sense (e.g. purchasing or faciliting aircratft to provide a good variety of reasonably priced and reliable such that customers have confidence tio book them) routes - is bonkers in airline speak!.

I know this may appear flippant,but why don't airlines take a step back, look at what customers want - and provide it:ugh:

[JSCL]

My argument to any airline is that even though customer culture has changed - years ago airlines could charge £500 return for demanding domestic routes and offer a good meal even though it's a short flight to help justify it. Now, it's entirely different, or is it? Sure customers want cheap - but I think customers are wanting to see their money go further, hence where BA succeeds on routes quite well. If BMIbaby grasped that charging a bit more and delivering a punctual and desirable service, they're on to a bigger winner. There's a reason the all business class from LCY to JFK is constantly sold out, going that extra mile works for customers. The industry hasn't changed too much to the extent of nobody caring about the frills, because people do.

Hopefully the top dogs at bmibaby aren't as brain dead as they seem.

[INKJET]

READ THE POST it would be clear to all that I was referring to flight deck, well all bar you and your known agenda re baby, BTW do you really think all those people 25+ plus are/were there to support two baby aircraft?

[INKJET]

LCY JFK is a very different market from say BHX/EMA ALC

Domy Dom

By and large the baby product is seen as good in the Midlands, the massive restructuring over recent years in the bmi group companies has resulted in many people leaving the company some are a sad loss others not so the problem for sites such as this is that it is full of people with an often anti ex employee attitude that because they are not part of the future, what ever that may be don't want to accept that there can be a future!

Baby in my view did that right thing in giving it's MAN/CWL employee's and customers 7 months notice of it's plans re re basing of aircraft, not a single customer will have had to re book hotels or cancel holiday plans, likewise all flight deck have a choice to stay with the company by either relocating or commuting or finding alternative employment, contrast this to say FR move from MAN with a few weeks notice

No one likes having their life turned upside down, or having to turn someone's life upside down. Baby have decided to go back to their roots ( and routes) in the Midlands BHX/EMA into BHD will make more money with two aircraft than EMA BHX CWL MAN did with four.

Baby may well revisit MAN in the future, but it won't do it with less than 6 aircraft, you need scale to make the numbers add up with airport deals when baby had 21 aircraft they should have stuck with 7 each in BHX MAN EMA , CWL MME were distractions BHD might go the same way but that's just a night stop not a base and what you spend on HOTAC you save on standby crew that would require around 6 flight deck and 10 cabin crew.

Well time for some sun in the Med

[mutleyshriek]

Inkjet.dont have an agenda actually and yes I do believe the figures for the redundancies at Man.My friends are being affected.

[GayFriendly]

when baby had 21 aircraft they should have stuck with 7 each in BHX MAN EMA , CWL MME were distractions


Couldn't agree more, they lost a big opportunity to strengthen themselves in markets that at the time EZY and to a lesser extent FR were not interested in. Although it is painful for those employed and now losing their jobs at CWL and MAN by Baby, as a company they have done the right thing to come back to their Midlands routes and become the Midlands loco of choice. I have far more faith in their commitment to BHX than FR who (as pointed out) close bases with little notice (and IMO have done nothing for BHX in terms of stable route growth). Baby does have a strong brand image and awareness in the Midlands, lets hope the new routes announced are not the last, I don't think they will be.

As far as I can see all airlines at some point chop and change schedules, incl WW, with little or no notice, I have had my fair share of 'change to flight time' emails from a variety of airlines incl FR, EZY and TOM.

[lexxity]

Waves at Inkjet. Those ground staff figures are because of the baby pullout, we have already been cut to the bone by the loss of the longhaul routes, then another round of redundancies and now this. Ask me how I know? :suspect:

[Sonic Bam]

..... and three engineers.:(

[JSCL]

Whilst it has been mentioned before about bmibaby continuing to advertise in Manchester and I understand they still have flights to fill but I'm confused about an advert I saw today. On a tram in Piccadilly, bmibaby Manchester to Newquay flights and it says for travel between 01.07.11-15.12.11 - that's a flight from Manchester to Newquay up until mid December? In fact, I don't even see that on the Manchester Airport wiki page as a route served by bmibaby - someone care to shed light?

Ah, just found the route on the Newquay info - but still confused by the dates considering the route is axed 2 months beforehand.

[Cazza_fly]

Ah, just found the route on the Newquay info - but still confused by the dates considering the route is axed 2 months beforehand.

The advert will most likely have been made and displayed to be published before the announcement of the closure of the MAN base happended despite the date ranges. Im guessing it's a minimum (''from...'') price offer displayed most likely, which will have meant the need for the date range to be shown. It doesn't neccessarily mean however that the route would/will have run throughout the period stated. Hope that helps.

On another note though, I must say, the advert clearly did the job it's designed to as you now know of the bmibaby Newquay routes?

[G-AWZK]

There are no redundant WW crew in MAN or CWL

Word reaches me, Inkjet, that this comment is no longer correct. Am I mistaken?

[INKJET]

There are no compulsory redundancies for flight deck at either CWL or MAN


Again what is your agenda, i see you are asking about bmi being sold on the bmi thread again, there are no plans to sell bmi or baby for that matter, but one can never say never. LH are still investing in bmi and have bought/buying the Stockley training centre from OAA with new Airbus sims going in later this year.

[G-AWZK]

LH are still investing in bmi and have bought/buying the Stockley training centre from OAA

How is buying the sim center from OAA and most likely branding it Lufthansa Flight Training (in the same way they rebranded the Austrian Airlines sim center in VIE), investing in bmi? I could be putting 2 and 2 together and getting 5 but Lufthansa Flight Training just took on a new Business Development Manager for Great Britain and Ireland, at the end of April. Coincidence?

Compulsory or "voluntary" redundancies? It is a bit of a moot point, don't you think? Work no longer exists at CWL and MAN, so aircrew can either accept relocation deals or leave. These are not the actions of a successful airline that is expanding.

I have no agenda, just an interested bystander.

[JSCL]

@G-AWZK

Haven't you heard that BMI in their current financial situation provide invisible jobs to employees who once flew the skies from CWL and MAN?

/sarcasm

You're exactly right. They will be told move to support our expanding hubs or bye bye. They won't be hanging around. They might support some with the Belfast route from MAN, thats about it.

[cornishsimon]

On another note though, I must say, the advert clearly did the job it's designed to as you now know of the bmibaby Newquay routes?


Quite right, Baby operate into NQY from MAN & EMA.

its clear that the MAN route will go when the MAN base closes, however is there any prospec of Baby serving more routes ex NQY ??

cs

[INKJET]

I don't recall anyone stating that WW was expanding?

Yes people will have to either relocate or commute or leave the business.

bmi continues to have negative earnings and I think that all are aware that given a choice LH would have not bought the business had they had the option to walk away, equally it is common knowledge that they looked at selling bits or all of the business but the numbers weren't right for prospective buyers or LH

There are a lot of people on here that thought bmi & baby would have gone under a year or more ago, but hey guess what it's still here! They now are back to two 330 flying for bmi in bmi/star colours and have a number of 321 being delivered over the next 12 months these are new aircraft.

In the mean time baby have just 14 aircraft to earn a living from. When baby was expanding it was opening bases and adding aircraft and crews and peaked at around 20/21 aircraft. In the early days post LH it was envisaged that as group losses reduced then the fleet could be rebuilt and expanded, that still remains the plan, however the Arab spring and week UK Market has created more headwinds than planned, so plans have had to change. Given that it is unlikely that the group will move into profit before 2012/3 then there was little point in making that objective more difficult by propping up two small marginal bases in MAN & CWL. Whilst BHD raised a few eyebrows it is not a base, just a night stop for two aircraft and a W location for a lot more next year, sales of which are going very nicely

So expanding no , successful trying to be, being sold no, going bust no, got a plan yes, paying wages and bills on time yes, added to which a dozen or so new pilots have started their flying career with baby this spring, or as the Everest double glazing add says, now you wouldn't have expected that a few years ago, would you?

[Skipness One Echo]

propping up two small marginal bases in MAN & CWL

Think about the achievement here. They managed to make Manchester, both small AND marginal. Manchester, the Gatwick of the North and they didn't make a go of it, being a non London based British airline. The words "open" and "goal" deserve a sentence all of their own....

[G-AWZK]

have a number of 321 being delivered over the next 12 months these are new aircraft.
Would these be the ones ordered by BMED of which at least 3 will be delivered directly to DLH?

Whilst BHD raised a few eyebrows it is not a base, just a night stop for two aircraft and a W location for a lot more next year, sales of which are going very nicely so night stopping 2 a/c = nightstopping at least 2 crews as well - that is not cheap in itself, and I find it difficult to believe that if MAN was a failure how WW can make an airport with a short runway and a catchment of less than 2 million pax is going to be a success.

going bust no only because DLH have deep pockets. If Frankfurt turned off the financial life support it would be.

Time will tell which of us is correct Inkjet.

[JSCL]

@INKJET

Your argument of 'everyone thought BMI would go under 1 1/2 years ago is nonsense' - sure people did and they would have, if DLH didn't have to bail them out of the crapper, again.

[INKJET]

I am unsure whether your agreeing with me or not? of course they wouldn't be around without DLH or someone else, you seem to want them to go under?

The point is that they are owned by DLH for better or for worse, some on here just can't seem to get their heads around that idea?

I give up !!!!!!!!!!!!:ugh:

[Jack1985]

From what i can see, bmibaby looks to be getting into a good position doing away with niche bases at CWL, MAN and focusing attention to the Midlands in BHX, EMA. I think theres huge opportunities for bmibaby from BHX, and to a lessor extent EMA. It does leave me bewildered why they even bothered to annonce the sun routes from BHD, i think all the routes bar STN, EMA, BHX, AMS should be scrapped they have no business fighting over MAN which will inevitably end, or the sun routes for that matter they're well covered from BFS and a little over capacity for this summer i might add. I hope bmibaby just keep strong and serve routes where possible, their idea of banking on Sun routes has to stop though.

[G-AWZK]

The point is that they are owned by DLH for better or for worse, some on here just can't seem to get their heads around that idea?

No, I think the point is that bmi and bmibaby in particular are not successful, and how long will Lufthansa shareholders have patience with a company that generates more than a quarter of DLH group losses?

Do I take any enjoyment from this? None whatsoever. I have friends that work for various parts of the group and the impact on bmi failure would be deeply unpleasant. However there is a business reality that has to faced at some point.

bmibaby looks to be getting into a good position doing away with niche bases at CWL, MAN and focusing attention to the Midlands in BHX, EMA. As someone earlier pointed out, if MAN is regarded as a niche base, the fundamental structure of the business is unsound. "Fortress Midlands" is scraping the bottom of the barrel and the very last roll of the dice.

[Facelookbovvered]

AWZK

I do rather find myself agreeing with some of the other poster's on here, in that whilst bmi is in a mess, which for every step forward events conspire to make them go back two steps backwards, you, do seem to have an unhealthy obsession with bmi and bmibaby in particular, perhaps a more objective view point it would make you appear less like a ex employee with an axe to grind, however well hidden?

I do agree that it cannot go on with the current losses,but i think you need to reflect more on DLH options given the money already invested.

[G-AWZK]

I have no axe to grind, but if that is how you wish to interpret my ramblings go ahead.

The second quarter results will be published on the 15th of July, we can see how things are going then.

CYA.

[Looker]

As an employee of Baby I take a less pessimistic view of the future than a certain poster.

Since DLH took over all the dead wood at senior management level has been eradicated and we now have a very good set of managers at board room level. Anyone who has met and spoken to WPS will know he's nobody's fool.

The middle management at Baby are the reason most of us have remained here. They are a very nice bunch of people to work for, despite the fact that sometimes they have to implement some difficult decisions from higher up.

BMI and BMI Baby have seen out all the detractors who have been prophesying our imminent demise and I have some confidence this will again be the case with this latest prophet of doom.

[Dreamweaver]

Hi everyone. Just need a little help. I flew for baby at EMA 2004/2005. I left without getting my logbook stamped and verified. Id be obliged if someone could pass me the contact number and email of HR to achieve this.

Best of luck to all the guys n gals at baby!

DW

[pamann]

With the possible relocation of some routes/frequencies of EZY from STN to SEN next year, could we see Baby make a go of things by launcing some routes from Stansted and enter the London market?

[davidjohnson6]

Would be brave for WW to go into the LCC lion's den of Stansted making it a new base (Belfast will be a new base), up against both Easyjet + Ryanair, when they struggled to make money at Manchester and Cardiff

[INKJET]

Not a chance of a STN base before 2013 unless a fundamental shake up at bmi results in all domestic flights switching to STN/WW but that would involve Group wide restructuring.

[Flightrider]

Given the disastrous performance to date on Belfast-Stansted, I think it would take a very brave (or very rich) person to suggest replicating the rest of the domestic routes into Stansted.

And before everyone jumps down my throat about this comment:

May10 (with significant volcanic ash disruption) - Ryanair carried 27,437 passengers on 3 x daily 737 on BHD-STN.

May11 (with one day of ash disruption) - bmibaby carried 6,842 passengers on 3 x daily 737 on BHD-STN.

I make that about 33% loadfactor. Must be losing their shirts on that one given the usual Belfast yields.

Why are they bothering?

[pamann]

Did I mention WW making a success (or far from) on the BHD-STN route? If BHD-STN is a loss maker does that also mean that STN-ALC/MJV/AGP/FAO etc would be? Granted BHD isn't the best of routes, but you can't base the viability of a base at STN on just one route that they operate now can you? Otherwise you'd be certain of the demise of the FR base at STN based purely on their STN-PIK route. 'Bigger Picture'... I hate that term btw.

[jabird]

pamann,

Baby have been here before - LGW-PRG on a w rotation iirc?

If Easy are moving out, what makes you think baby should move in? WW are well known in the Midlands - they have a strong brand, however much that tiny concept makes me think of screaming kids and 'tiny' suggests being small and amateur!

How are they going to market themselves for a handful of routes out of STN?

London is a big market, it doesn't need baby and baby doesn't need it.

[EI-BUD]

Given the disastrous performance to date on Belfast-Stansted, I think it would take a very brave (or very rich) person to suggest replicating the rest of the domestic routes into Stansted.



Flightrider, I cant see much in the way of developments for any airlines in UK domestic routes ex London, what with recession, improved road and rail etc, and given that bmi have closed GLA and Ryanair axing PIK STN well looks like the yield is not there.

I think bmibaby entering the fray at STN to Europe would be pure suicide, given the lack of brand presence in London plus the sheer volume of competition and frequency on most main routes with EZY & Ryanair. Flyglobespan didnt last long on STN routes, so what chance for WW?

As regards BHD STN routes the odds were stacked against WW from the word go, given nobody in London would think of checking WW for a flight to Belfast. In NI a good reputation and a good level of marketing going on.

If I am not mistaken FR had 4 daily STN BFS services a day in each direction each day whereas WW has 3 a day mon-Fri and 1 on Sunday.
So that would be WW 16 return a week compared FR 28, and add the difference in seating capacity WW 132? V FR 159 (avg 149 and 169?).
Nonetheless a soft start on the route. Lets hope for WW sake it picks up.

EI-BUD

[BHX2FRA]

Looks like one of the three aircraft based at BHX is out of service - some cancellations and long delays for others - Additional plane arriving from EMA at 2020 to help recover the situation.

0750 to Murcia left 1447
1235 to Amsterdam left 1430
1415 to Nice still delayed
1430 to Knock left 1747
1615 Belfast / 1805 Amsterdam both cancelled
1920 Alicante delayed
1940 Belfast delayed

[jabird]

Flightrider, I cant see much in the way of developments for any airlines in UK domestic routes ex London, what with recession, improved road and rail etc, and given that bmi have closed GLA and Ryanair axing PIK STN well looks like the yield is not there.

Add to that a double dosage of APD and new routes over land at least are a virtual non-starter. PLH closing too, LCY-LPL & MAN gone, LBA-LHR then LGW gone, MME-LHR gone & not replaced - to name a few!

[sam1993]

Flightontime.info results for the first three months of the year have been uploaded onto their site and it shows Bmibaby were the most punctual low cost airline.
Flight on time (http://www.bmibaby.com/bmibaby/news/2011/flight_on_time.aspx)

[FR-]

- Sample proportions for bmi regional, bmi British Midland and bmi baby are averaged across all three airlines.

Read the foot notes*

[sam1993]

I did actually read the footnotes, however as the average delay for each of the 3 airlines are different (i.e. each airlines punctuality stats have been taken into account) it can be concluded that of the low cost airlines, Bmibaby had the lowest average delay and consequently, the best on time performance.

Just for clarity:
Average Delay for bmi Regional: 6.2 Minutes
Average Delay for bmibaby: 7.1 minutes - Lowest of the low cost airlines
Average Delay for bmi (Mainline): 10.4 Minutes

[stuart-travel]

As a tour operater we used bmibaby for the first time on ema-jer, and very well done flights on time very helpful with disabled client, and our report from clients a very nice airline.

We plan a lot more flights for clients on ema-jer in 2011/12


regards
stuart

[Cazza_fly]

Newly launched today 'bmibaby holidays'. Flights with bmibaby in association with Co-op Holidays for all other aspects. It's a step in the right direction and could potentially open up further business for them with the planned merger between the Thomas Cook group and Co-op travel group..?

I suppose it's similar to how easyjet deal with lowcostholidays.com but obviously on a different scale!

[j636]

This is the website:

bmibaby Holidays - Flight and Hotel packages in assosiation with Co-op Holidays (http://holidays.bmibaby.com/)

[Cazza_fly]

''As well as the recent launch of bmibaby Holidays in association with Co-op Holidays, bmibaby has today introduced two new pricing strategies on offer to it's customers. 'FamilyFly' - is aimed towards the family and group booking's customers. Advantages will include standard 22kg hold luggage allowance, together seating and priotrity boarding bundled together to make saving's when compared to booking each service separately. 'FlyPlus' - which has been created to be aimed towards the business traveller and those customers that need the comfort of flexibility. Advantages will include no flight change fees, executive lounge access and the added option of having a laptop size bag along with your standard hand-luggage allowance. bmibaby will however continue to offer the standard fare option to customers giving them the option to choose just the parts of the service they want, when they want it...''

I think these new services along with the recent news of them being the most punctual UK low-cost carrier, improvements in customer service and the rumours of a couple of further new routes being announced from BHX and BHD, should surely mean things are looking up and Lufthansa hopefully being impressed?

[TwinAisle]

The first thing they need to do is sack the person who wrote this press release.

Apart from three misplaced apostrophes, the whole article is syntactically lousy. I wouldn't pay the agency or staff member that wrote this.

That would be a simple saving for Mr Carr....

TA

[Cazza_fly]

The first thing they need to do is sack the person who wrote this press release.

Agreed. Although i did copy and paste this from another aviation forum and can't see it on the bmibaby website so it's been even cheaper for baby than paying an angency :ok:

[nospeedrestriction9]

Cazza_fly - The only thing that will impress Lufthansa is a profit! Nothing else!

[INKJET]

Not quite right but i take your point.

The new products have not been launched yet, the document posted above is a cut and paste job from an internal news update. All three products can be bought now on the website (Familyplus, Flyplus and bmibaby holidays) but the status is "under-test", whilst we debug any web issues, this is far from easy and we also have to train staff, not to stop someone with two bits of hand luggage when they have a valid Flyplus ticket, so it wont go public for a couple of weeks yet.:)

[mn06]

How long will bmibaby holidays last with the Thomas Cook and the Co-op merger?

I can't imagine Cooks would be too happy, although they do have some relationship with Cooks taking seats on bmibaby to the likes of Alicante.

[JSCL]

One thing to understand as someone in the know with everything Co-Op Group, can tell you each segment and arm of Co-Op Travel has different managers and decision makers.

Co-Op Travel RETAIL has basically been sold off and franchised to Cooks. Cooks own the co-op Travel retail branding franchise and operate the stores on behalf on representation of co-op travel, just like any TC branch but in co-op travel orange. The bmibaby tie-in is to allow the outsourcing of the other arrangements. If bmibaby did their own holidays like Jet2, it'd instantly become a need for more staff, training and infrastructure investment. This is basically bmibaby flights and hotels etc arranged by co-op. Like when you visit the Thomas cook website and book a trip like I do with a different airline but accommodation from the large TC selection. Also means baby don't need to litigate in ATOL, which co-op is already covered by and deals with.

Also, Co-op Travel is the big brand under the main co-operative group. The Co-op Holidys was created by the Midlands Co-operative as their own income umbrella to the core co-op travel.

[DomyDom]

So thats clear then...

I hope things work out for BMIbaby. They were the first LC airline that entered MAN and did a cracking job for many years although in the last couple of years they became very inconsistent in terms of customers knowing whether or on which day your flight was departing, however in my experience the professionalism of their cabin crew cannot be questioned. Also recently it seems a bit bizarre to be spending so much money promoting a base that they are about to pull out of i.e. Manchester. It's incredible but I still get (what would otherwise be customers) asking me why baby are putting on new routes to Montpellier - until I dispel them (regretfully) by outlining baby's intentions to dump MAN. This must be the only airline that promotes a base that it is going to leave - you really wonder what is next on the agenda - oh, new niche routes to Italy and France from Manchester(!) Sorry but this airline does seem to be acase of lions led by donkeys ! Julian C - any comments?:rolleyes:

[greatoaks]

Baby website states you can check in online up to 16 days prior to travel.

Can anyone confirm that when you do this it allocates your seat and prints this on boarding card.

Cant seem to find this answer on their website

many thanks

[INKJET]

Yep that's the way it works, the system will allocate a seat. You can for a fee select a seat, if there is more than one of you travelling it will not try and split you up, but you might be on a different row if your seat was the last on that row, it will normally start from the back as people who pay for seat allocation normally want to sit near the front, bmibaby use air-bridges at airports that have them so being near the front means you off quicker, but if your travelling with luggage it means you'll get to wait longer for it!

Unless the flight is full the cabin crew will always try and move people who wish to sit together but have been allocated seats apart.

[dochealth]

Great trip Noc-Man-Noc last weekend. Super crew, highly professional, on time LF 90 % etc...

Just dont see how they can leave a base like Man with a product this good??

[merchant sailors]

They are also walking away from what appears to be a very strong med route operation at Cardiff where they have no / little competition.

All this to base at BHD and fly to the med (longer sectors) in competition with EI, LS and EZY at BFS

Why would any airline do that?

Is it too late to change their minds?

[davidjohnson6]

merchant - how willing are the inhabitants of Cardiff to fly from Bristol, and can one look at Cardiff as a market purely of its own rather than in conjunction with BRS ?

I'm guessing that for beach routes from Cardiff to Spain and Portugal, a significant number of the passengers are taking an annual summer holiday and actively consider Bristol as an option if it's cheaper

[CheekyVisual]

That is CWLs entire problem, not just baby but the entire airport. Despite BRS terrible road it is still less than an hour from Cardiff's population centre and from Newport the trip time is about the same. This makes Cardiff and Newport part of the BRS catchment area.

Baby appear to have been unable to compete on price with FR and Easy on the med routes over the last two summers, hence CWLs demise I guess. It's not a few quid either even taking into account travel to Bristol the difference is in hundreds for a family of four on most flights. The CWL catchment isn't well off at the moment either. Lots of public sector jobs under threat. People are really looking at every penny.

I used to work for Baby, now work for one of the others, unfortunately. I would always fly with Baby and from CWL by choice but this year I can't justify the premium.

I've operated out of BRS a fair bit this summer lots of Welsh accents on the aircraft ! When price is everything CWL seem unable to compete looking at any airline.

Good luck to Baby though, despite shafting me, they are a generally good bunch of guys and girls I hope it works out for them. Sad for those uprooted from CWL though.

[jerboy]

Yep that's the way it works, the system will allocate a seat. You can for a fee select a seat, if there is more than one of you travelling it will not try and split you up, but you might be on a different row if your seat was the last on that row

Another peace of poor IT from (or used by) the bmi group. Although it actively doesn't split people up, sitting a 3 year old in 22A and its parent in 21F isn't exactly helpful. Sorting it out is annoying for the passenger, can be tricky for staff to sort out if the flight is full, and slows down turnaround times. Something like this would be so simple to remedy with a few lines of code from an IT boffin.

They need to concentrate on getting the simple things correct first rather than introducing even more complicated fare structuring as discussed above... FamilyFly, FlyPlus... eh? Again they are trying to be everything to everyone and complicating matters. For example only now are Easyjet, who are infinitely bigger than baby, entering the 'business fare' market after building up and earning the loyalty of business passengers for years.

It just seems another stab in the dark whereas what the airline actually needs is a massive overhaul and substantial investment.

[INKJET]

Bmibaby have been in the business end of the Market since day one with it's domestic product, as for Easyjet they didn't do themselves any favours with the business Market when they named and shamed large businesses that DIDN'T fly with them but used BA. What easy jet failed to understand was that business traffic needs flexibility and not sorry your late that's £500 to go on the later flight or massive name change fees

Back to baby, you can avoid the child not sitting next to you paying a fee for seat allocation and many do just that, likewise the new products of Flyplus and flyfamily also allow free seat selection, I don't think baby is trying to be all things to all men, it's just trying......

Agreed it needs investment in newer aircraft, however that is not a priority for DLH when bmi group losses are running at over £100m in the first half

Sadly things are never as easy as a few lines of code....:ugh:

[Skipness One Echo]

as for Easyjet they didn't do themselves any favours with the business Market when they named and shamed large businesses that DIDN'T fly with them but used BA. What easy jet failed to understand was that business traffic needs flexibility and not sorry your late that's £500 to go on the later flight or massive name change fees

easyJet learned from this and are now much more business friendly. Until recently it was possible to arrive for an earlier flight and hop on gratis assuming there were spare seats.

[True Blue]

I am flying Bhx/Bhd this weekend. I have received an email from Baby advising of the need to input Apis info if flying to/from UK on an international flight, which I understand. But why am I being asked for this on a domestic flight? My reservation at the minute is looking for this to be input.

True Blue

[INKJET]

APIS information is not required for travel to the Republic of Ireland or Germany. However, passengers traveling to the Republic of Ireland who wish to use our online check in service are required to provide their passport/photo ID details prior to checking in.

[clareview]

Inkjet

BHD (George Best Belfast City Airport) is not in the Republic of Ireland so a flight from Brimingham is the same as one from Birmingham to Glasgow or Exeter i.e a domestic flight. Belfast is in the United Kingdon of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, to use the correct title for our nation.

I am not sure therefore why you are explaining the rules for the Republic of Ireland, a foreign country.

[Say again s l o w l y]

Err. I take it no-one here is used to flying into N.I then...

The rules about flying into and out of N.I are a bit different than the rest of the country. Even though it's technically a domestic flight, you still need to notify the powers that be.

It's not the airlines that make this stuff up I can assure you!

[eastern wiseguy]

Even though it's technically a domestic flight

It's not technically ANYTHING

It IS a domestic flight:ugh::ugh:

[clareview]

I fly regularly from both BFS and BHD to other airports in the UK and between airports within Britain. Procedures are no different, nor is security - photo id at check in and security.

Long gone are the days of additional terrorist related security measures at Northern Ireland airports - its the same for everyone in the UK now

[Cazza_fly]

Even though it's technically a domestic flight,

This is a domestic flight.

bmibaby send out a standard email to all customers, however once you come to add these details, all you will find that you really need to do is add your name, gender and date of birth for domestic flights... It will then not require you to add the further details required for international flights that include passport details and nationality.

[True Blue]

I discovered this for myself. Pity WW are unable to be a bit more accurate in who they ask for this. For the record, none of EI, Ezy, Ls or Flybe ask for any info like this for domestic flights. So why do WW need it? It is clearly not a request from the authorities, unless they are picking on WW only, so must be a pendantic request from someone within WW?

[Say again s l o w l y]

Long gone are the days of additional terrorist related security measures at Northern Ireland airports - its the same for everyone in the UK now

OK, would you mind explaining that to Ports unit of Special Branch. They seem to have missed that one...

For an example, there is still the requirement to inform SB if you are going from a non-designated airport to or from N.I. from somewhere in the common travel area. Just check the Terrorism Act 2000.

I've only operated into BHD and N.I for the last 15 years, so I don't know what I'm talking about...

The reason API is wanted for N.I is due to the change in the rules between N.I and RoI in regard to the common travel area that used to exist between them (politically it still exists.)

Since the UK e-borders stuff came in in 2009, it's meant that whilst you don't need to show your passport to come into N.I from RoI, you ARE required to show it if leaving N.I.

Now, if this sounds nuts, that's because it is.

The whole thing about domestic flights is a red herring. You shouldn't need API for an internal EU flight (the Canaries don't count for that though for example) but this is an anomaly where it's asked for by the UK Border agency.

[eastern wiseguy]

For an example, there is still the requirement to inform SB if you are going from a non-designated airport to or from N.I. from somewhere in the common travel area.

Yes quite true.....how does that fit in between BHX and BHD,not exactly two NON DESIGNATED hole in the hedge airports.

Sloppy emailing I think.

[Say again s l o w l y]

Did you not read the rest of my post? The little bit about e-borders? That's the important bit. Since non UK nationals can get into N.I without having to show a passport, then to leave N.I, you need to show your passport or I.D. This is different compared to any other internal EU flight.

One thing more. You only need one non-designated airport before you have to tell SB, not 2. So if you are flying into BHD from a non-designated airfield, then you need to give notice.

[MontyP]

Ref the API thing

I thought the very same a couple of months ago. Very strange having to enter API's for NI to England. Proceeded to enter details and got fed up looking for my mates passport details decided there must be a way round it and there was. Cant remember how but I was able to check in online without having to enter API's.

[True Blue]

But they don't ask for API in the end, they ask for sex and D of B. What do they need that for and why does no other carrier that I mentioned in my previous post ask for it?

[Say again s l o w l y]

I have no idea about other carriers, but I do know that when travelling from N.I or anywhere in the UK, you are supposed to provide the UK Border agency with API.

I don't like it one little bit, but there it is.

Here's an excerpt from Wiki that explains it:

In July 2008, the UK Border Agency published a consultation paper on the Common Travel Area that envisaged the imposition of identity and immigration controls on all air and sea crossings between the island of Ireland and Great Britain. Being part of the proposed electronic borders system, these controls would be accompanied by an Advance Passenger Information System on all flights and sea journeys between the islands of Ireland and Great Britain.

While passport controls were planned to be brought in between the United Kingdom and Ireland, the nature of possible identity controls between Great Britain on the one hand, and the Isle of Man, the Channel Islands, and Northern Ireland on the other, is not altogether clear. The last of these is the most controversial as Northern Ireland is a constituent part of the United Kingdom, with a prominent Ulster Unionist describing the proposed arrangements as "intolerable and preposterous". The nature of identity checks between Northern Ireland and Great Britain was characterised by the British government as follows:

"Section 14 of the Police and Justice Act 2006 introduced a new power that will allow the police to capture passenger, crew and service information on air and sea journeys within the United Kingdom. ... It is expected that this police power will only apply to air and sea routes between Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Passengers will not be required to use passports, but may be required to produce one of several types of documentation, including passports, when travelling, to enable the carrier to the meet the requirements of a police request."

As far as the land border is concerned, the UK Border Agency indicated that the border would be "lightly controlled" and a joint statement in 2008 by both governments confirmed that there are no plans for fixed controls on either side of the border

[Cazza_fly]

''Budget airline bmibaby (http://www.cheapflights.co.uk/airlines/bmibaby/) has won the Best Low Cost Airline Award in the prestigious Conde Nast Traveller 2011 Reader Awards.''

Bmibaby wins award for best low cost airline - Cheapflights.co.uk (http://news.cheapflights.co.uk/2011/09/bmibaby-wins-award-for-best-no-frills-airline/)

[AltFlaps]

Wow

This really shows how bad moral is - even considering what is going on at present, nobody has posted here for 20 days! :\

[INKJET]

AltFlaps Wow

This really shows how bad moral is - even considering what is going on at present, nobody has posted here for 20 days!


Or it shows how good moral is?

We know what's going on!

See you in another 20 days

[davidjohnson6]

I'd have thought that the absence of any posts on a particular topic on a discussion forum indicates just that there is nothing new to discuss - for an airline this might mean the staff are all just getting on with the job

[INKJET]

The company has been very open with it's communication to all employee's I do not claim to know beyond what is in the bmi public domain, I don't know the outcome but some speculation offered on here is just plain rubbish, the clues are there, but the dots can be joined in different ways.

[queenvic]

Is Baby part of the deal with IAG?

[VC10man]

I didn't think it was part of the deal, but now I'm not sure. I do not think IAG want baby, I can see it being closed down, which would be a pity for EMA and the East Midlands area.

[davidjohnson6]

To shut a company down has surprisingly high costs. As far as I know, bmibaby is not losing a large amount of money, so it should be possible to turn it around, given sufficient attention from management. Thus, if sold cheaply enough, even for a notional £1, there is presumably some other airline with existing UK infrastructure (Easyjet, Flybe, Jet2, Monarch or Ryanair) out there that would want to take on baby

[Little Blue]

I doubt very much that baby will be 'closed down'.
Any sale to another carrier will almost certainly still ensure a presence at EMA, albeit in a different guise to baby.

Some of the EMA routes are pretty good money-spinners so it would be a foolish company to dismiss those.

I wish all my ex-colleagues at baby (and bmi) all the best luck in the world over the next few months. I've been there, as well.....:ok:

[mathers_wales_uk]

People are forgetting that Vueling is a subsidiary of Iberia which is also part of the IAG group.

Some of the surplus A319/A320 being sent to them from the BMI/BA deal.

It seems strange that Vueling makes an announcement to start Barcelona from Cardiff just as bmibaby say goodbye.

Ease Vueling into the market before the announcement of bmibaby is now Vueling.

It's a long shot but could happen