Bmibaby

[Monty Gordo]

'I didn't think it was part of the deal, but now I'm not sure. I do not think IAG want baby, I can see it being closed down, which would be a pity for EMA and the East Midlands area' - VC10man

There is something that does not quite add up here. Whey when there has been a paucity of activity re route development from Bhx should both BMIbaby and Monarch launch Rome? Suddenly from nothing to two carriers.

Or will it be two carriers?

There is still intense speculation as to the future of BMIbaby, part of IAG or part of Monarch in the fulness of time.

Does this route to Rome hold any key as to the future?

Edit: reason spelling

[EI-BUD]

If BA had to take Baby with mainline in order to secure the deal with LH, BA will have to do something with it. However, having thought about it I simply can not see Baby being integrated into Vueling. Yeah Vueling is part of IAG, but seriously the UK has the most competitive low cost operations, well certainly more carriers in a crowded market place. FR, LS, EZY etc. etc.

Personally, I think it would be a mad idea to place Vueling in the UK where Baby is now. There are far more places on the continent that would make more sense.

[AltFlaps]

Give us a break with the Monarch spiel!
Monarch is NOT buying baby - the 'big' Monarch announcement has come and gone.

[jabird]

sts, I think Jet2 would be more interested than Monarch, and I agree that Vueling have no presence in UK - and I think the name sounds crap too, too much like wealking!

Question is, what would they get for £1? Slots at BHX aren't quite the same as at LHR - do baby own the 737's outright? Fairly old frames, but at least LS operate same type?

[INKJET]

It simple really, Lufthansa announce that they are considering a sale or partial sale of the bmi group, which includes mainline,baby, and regional, plus engineering and a share in NATS.

A number of parties express an interest in bits or all of the group (Lufthansa's preferred option) the big boys wouldn't out of choice want either regional or baby, because all they really want is access to LHR, but if push comes to shove they'll take the lot, meanwhile other players express an interest in regional and baby and first out of the block is Woddley & Ross with an offer for regional and that should be complete inside a couple of weeks, likewise there are rumoured to be a couple of interested parties in baby and it's probably that any deal would likely be agreed in principal before November is out.

IAG & Virgin have been in talks to buy the group and IAG tables an offer for bmi which includes everything bar regional which is already sold, IAG will be aware of the baby sale timetable but should that fall apart they'll be left holding the baby so to speak.

So if it works to plan IAG will end up buying bmi which will have shed regional and baby, simples!

Unwinding baby and regional from the bmi group will be less straight forward me thinks

Forget Vueling or Monarch or Jet2, the baby brand will almost certainly continue with it's new owner, after all it is only the brand that is of worth

[Flypuppy]

Inky,
agree with most of what you say, but I do question the value of the brand once the bmi connection is removed; it would still require a bit of investment and effort to re-establish what is effectively a new brand.

The same will be true with Regional, remove the bmi bit and it rather loses it's impact. Just my opinion of course.

[davidjohnson6]

Monty Gordo - just my speculation, but if we consider this from a game theory point of view:

My understanding is that bmibaby announced a Birmingham - Rome route over 2 months ago. Monarch presumably will have been well aware of this announcement. However, Monarch are also aware that the bmi group is for sale, and that because of the change of ownership and general instability may have considered bmibaby either
- unlikely to actually send planes to Rome (i.e. routes gets cancelled in February 2012 for some reason or other)
- or that the new owner of bmibaby will be much more focussed on integrating a new airline into their existing operations and thus may not have the stomach in 2012 for a head-to-head fight against another airline - better to gain stability before trying for growth

Furthermore, now that Lufthansa have publicly announced bmi is being sold, and it's gone all over the press, customers may view flights with baby as a higher risk - should I book 6 months ahead with baby whose future ownership is unknown and risk my holiday being messed up or should I book with a more stable airline ?

Bmibaby has become a much less credible competitor on any new routes and thus Monarch have a greater chance of making the Rome route work.

[INKJET]

I would think any deal on baby will include the use of the name for a period of time much as is the case with regional, although the impact on regional may well be higher without the bmi in front of it,bmibaby or baby having dropped the bmi bit is a easier rebrand in my view.

Monarch and Rome DJ you could well be right and I have no doubt that some passenger will be reluctant to book with baby whilst there is uncertainty over it's future, but most don't read Pprune clearly there has been uncertainty over the future of baby for the last 3 years, but it hasn't stopped people booking with them ! Fortunately because of the state of the UK market it has moved to a late booking market and if this can be settled before the peak booking season after Christmas then I think it's impact will be limited.

Baby is web airline and needs only bmibaby.com to re route to another domain name is easy stuff supported by marketing spend

The problem is everyone assumes that it will be another airline that buys baby, I don't see that, why would Jet2 or any other player want the hassle of different pays scales, management structure, the TUPE stuff? when they could just put aircraft into EMA & BHX ?

[jabird]

Monarch and Rome DJ you could well be right and I have no doubt that some passenger will be reluctant to book with baby whilst there is uncertainty over it's future, but most don't read PPRuNe clearly there has been uncertainty over the future of baby for the last 3 years, but it hasn't stopped people booking with them

I often wonder if people stop to think that these lowcost airlines forcing people to pay by debit card means they have no credit protection. Maybe as only way to avoid baby fees is to pay by Electron, maybe more people pay by credit card than previously?

Personally, I imagine that baby won't suddenly stop like XL or SkyEurope, but there is a hidden risk no credit protection or even travel insurance will cover. If the airline stops, you might get back what you paid for the flight, and you may even be able to get refund on some ancilliaries, but if you have already made arrangements, chances are you will have to fork out extra for alternative flights, and that consequential is your problem.

For those reasons, I'd think twice before booking next summer with baby, and I think there are plenty of punters who read the news, even if they don't read pprune!

[INKJET]

I understand where you are coming from, but this is very different from the likes of Globespan which basically went bust, bmibaby is owned by bmi and bmi is owned by Lufthansa so there is no chance of baby going bust, were its owners now or in the future to choose to cease trading, they would be doing so knowing that they would have to refund all bookings money taken, bmi, Lufthansa or IAG could not just shut up shop and take the money.

Having said that it will of course concern some, however i have had several phone calls from contacts outside the industry who watched the news reports and said i guess your company is secure now that you have been taken over by BA!

This is a non event for 99% of baby customers and come Christmas will have forgotten about it in the same way most have about JLR being bought by Tata motors or Cadbury by Kraft, it is uncertainty that does the damage, just look at SAAB car sales, this should bring that uncertainty to an end

[jabird]

IJ,

Exactly as I posted - I doubt they will run with punters' money, but there are other costs involved with making a travel booking that a flight canx refund would not cover.

There is also a small question of car hire - never good value with locos anyway imho, but if baby were to cancel your flight, and you've booked a hire car, their deal is with an agency (CarTrawler), who then contract with the rental co. Who would be responsible for the refund?

BA used to own go, and baconnect, I don't think they are in the business of running locost. I don't care who makes my chocolate bar, I have never wanted a refund on one!

[Cazza_fly]

agree with most of what you say, but I do question the value of the brand once the bmi connection is removed; it would still require a bit of investment and effort to re-establish what is effectively a new brand.


Most people actually refer to bmibaby as ''baby'' now, this is what the airline has wanted to achieve for a while. You may have noticed that the increase in use of the word ''baby!'' in marketing etc and less use of the word bmi to help differentiate the brands.

Re-naming the airline to ''flybaby.com'' for example would still keep the branding in-line and everything they have been working to achieve.

In all fairness, there is no brand connection needed anymore regarding the ''bmi-'' part of baby. Even if there wasn't a sale of the group and things were to carry on as normal, bmibaby could re-name itself to flybaby.com tomorrow and still retain it's brand image. What i am trying to is people are booking to fly with bmibaby not 'bmi' and what that stands for.

[VIKING9]

Maybe BA will rename BMiBaby as "Go" :ok:

I'll get me coat....

[Facelookbovvered]

What about Gobaby ?

[brighton_rocks]

or just BAby :)

[Cazza_fly]

Take over aside, Two more new routes are set to be announced before the end of the week for next summer.

[BHD2BFS]

do you know from which airport cazza?

[GayFriendly]

Bound the be from Fortress EMA......unless they are going back on BHX-MAD?

[OltonPete]

GayFriendly & BHD2BFS

The four based BHX schedule is quite packed and any new route might come at the expense of an existing route (Madrid for Rome due Monarch's service ;))

East Mids had loads of gaps in their schedule of eight aircraft that is why I thought they were going to lose an aircraft when there was some discussion about a delay to re-signing of the four aircraft leases. Coupled with Munich and Prague being taken of sale for next summer, it was all pointing to one less aircraft. I wonder if Prague will survive but certainly not bookable next summer from EMA.

Now that it is believed that 14 will be in the fleet, this leaves at least a chance of a couple of new routes for EMA. Sorry BHD2BFS I have not looked at the BHD aircraft utilisation to see if there is room for more in the schedule.

Pete

[BHD2BFS]

i thought after the launch of BHD they where interested in reinstating the prague route, especially since no one else flies there now and i think there is a few gaps in the time table, just a thought

[Cazza_fly]

do you know from which airport cazza?


No sorry, all i know it will be 2 new routes and slight frequency increases to some of the most popular current destinations.

Only with a jigging around of some timing and days at BHX would there be enough room for the likes of say another Med-length route, so most likely they will be from EMA where there is a few gaps some days.
BHD looks a pretty full schedule also, I guess they could squeeze in a UK domestic route some days with a little jigging about with the current timetable, but I doubt they would do.

Let's just hope it's NOT in the old bmibaby style of introducing brand new routes while quietly dropping another...

[sealink]

I was hoping baby would squeeze in a Jer service somewhere in the schedule as its a pretty short run down and back. Compete with be .

[Cazza_fly]

I was hoping baby would squeeze in a Jer service somewhere in the schedule as its a pretty short run down and back. Compete with be .


I was actually thinking NQY. Maybe even at 2x weekly like LS did at BFS.

Anyway Ive heard they will announce within the next 48hours :ok:

[theredbarron]

Could Baby be just what Stelios needs to get his new Fastjet airline off the ground?

[Cyrano]

I was actually thinking NQY. Maybe even at 2x weekly like LS did at BFS.


Well, they do just have an aircraft out of the paint shop (http://yfrog.com/hsxp7ifj) today named "Surf's up baby"... :hmm:

[BasilFawlty]

Anyone able to tell me more about the current fleet utilisation? How many aircraft are based at each base? I'm especially interested in the BHD operations...

Thanks in advance!

[Cazza_fly]

Anyone able to tell me more about the current fleet utilisation? How many aircraft are based at each base? I'm especially interested in the BHD operations...




BHD = 2x 733
BHX = 8x 733/5
EMA = 4x 733/5

[BasilFawlty]

Thanks! :)

[OltonPete]

Reverse BHX & EMA ;)

I am sure BHX would love 8 based!

Currently BHX is three based but from the end of next week only
Sunday will see all three needed.



Pete

[Cazza_fly]

Currently BHX is three based but from the end of next week only
Sunday will see all three needed.

True, this is the summer plan however not all these aircraft are being used at EMA during the winter either, just like most airlines many will be parked up for long periods throughout the day. BHX will see upto 4 a/c, EMA 8 a/c and BHD 2 a/c parked up even over the winter.

[BasilFawlty]

BHX would definitely love 8 aircraft, but as far as I can see there's barely enough work for 2 aircraft at the moment, except on sundays.

I've red earlier in this thread that BHD is technically a nightstop for two aircraft? Anyone know how these schedules look like?

[Cazza_fly]

I've red earlier in this thread that BHD is technically a nightstop for two aircraft? Anyone know how these schedules look like?

True for the moment where the crew HOTAC from EMA/BHX, although from Feb/Mar the plan is to have a full cabin crew base at BHD.

[Cazza_fly]

EMA - CATANIA (Sicily) CTA - 1x Weekly
BHD - MAHON MAH - 2x Weekly

Other popular routes to places like ALC, PMI and AGP have also had extra flights added for the peak travel periods from EMA and BHX.

[G-AWZK]

Assuming bmiBaby still exists in the near future.....

[ib26uk]

G-AWZK,

Do you know something? Read on here (so must be true...) that bmibaby has been sold and details announced soon !!!!!!

[Unijet]

Does anyone know what the EMA flight is planning to do in Chambery on Sundays? There is only the EMA route listed on the baby website, will they be doing a W pattern with a charter flight in the middle? (ema-cmf-lgw-cmf-ema...for example)

Timetable shows

EMA - CMF 07.25 - 10.15
CMF - EMA 16.25 - 17.20

[ninjaconnie]

Then operates CMF-BRS-CMF


Steve

[Say again s l o w l y]

Baby haven't been sold. Yet. For the sake of the people there, I hope it is, because if it isn't I have a horrible feeling that IAG will just close it down if they end up buying it as part of the BMI deal.

[G-AWZK]

I suspect your fears may be justified Sas...

However I have heard some interesting nuggets of gossip about Iberia Express... Dos cervesa por favor?

[jabird]

Steve,

take it you mean CMF-BFS-CMF?

[Cazza_fly]

take it you mean CMF-BFS-CMF?

No he means BRS. They are operating on behalf of Ski Total holidays, so a charter and no direct flights will be bookable on bmibaby.com

[jabird]

OK, thanks for the explanation.

[Dave Clarke Fife]

Any substance to the rumour regarding bmiBaby and ASL Aviation????

[G-AWZK]

Amongst one or two others, yes.

[Pull what]

Could Baby be just what Stelios needs to get his new Fastjet airline off the ground?

As long as he doesnt get the management team!

[Cazza_fly]

As long as he doesnt get the management team!

Except the current bmibaby management team is probably the best they've ever had. Note I said bmibaby not bmi...

[G-AWZK]

If that's the best.... :bored:

[Say again s l o w l y]

The bmi baby team are perfectly fine. With what they have been given, they've done a pretty decent job.

It's hard to judge really based on results, as they aren't really that clear because of the relationship with mainline, but the baby people all work as a team, seem to communicate well with eachother and are efficiency personified when compared to mainline. There's a nice atmosphere in the office too, which always bodes well.

Compared to some of the ego maniacs and simply horrid individuals who often populate airline management, the baby upper echelons are a million miles from that. So I don't really think it's fair to have a go at them at all.

Who would you rather work for. Ryanair or Baby?
If the latest rumours come true, then unfortunately the baby people might find out what RYR is like first hand...

[FR-]

You know its not too bad at Ryanair if you come in and do the job your paid to do, and if your on a Ryanair contract the money is good. EMA crew are happy, we have a great base manager. Wish you all the best at Baby anyway.

fr-

[FlyboyUK]

-FR

Trouble is new pilots don't get the chance of a RYR contract, you have to be a contractor (although a few bases did have the chance for some pilots to apply for a contract recently).

[IThoughtTheredBeFood]

I'd take the train spotter and the Spartan general of the other bunch of clowns every day of the week. I'm sure there are plenty in the old land dunnunda that would agree. Too many of their commercial predecessors have been too weak or too preoccupied with other agendas to make the baby a man, and the new foster parents did little to help. Blame the parents not the sitters.
My 2c. Good luck boys and girls.
ITtBF

[OliWW]

From what I've seen, bmibaby are set to introduce Reus for 2012...

Currently bookable on TCX's website as...

WW7501, EMA-REU D13:05 A16:25
WW7502, REU-EMA D17:00 A18:30

Weekly throughout the summer on a Friday

[Cazza_fly]

From what I've seen, bmibaby are set to introduce Reus for 2012...


This will most likely will be a fully chartered aircraft on behalf of Thomas Cook operated by baby, although it would be good to see any spare capacity sold onbehalf of bmibaby as a scheduled service.

It will operate 2x weekly on Mondays (Dep 08:10) and Fridays (Dep 13:05)

You probably know, bmibaby have worked closely with Thomas Cook for a number of years now, mainly selling a percentage of seats on certain days on flights to and from Alicante, Malaga and Palma. This was originally the plan so that TCX aircraft could expand and open up routes to longer sector destinations like Turkey etc.

[airnoc]

Quote from westernpeople July 2010

Commenting on the news, Joe Gilmore, managing director, Ireland West Airport Knock said: “We are delighted to welcome bmibaby’s 800,000th passenger through Ireland West Airport Knock. I'm delighted to welcome the managing director of bmibaby, Julian Carr, to the airport to celebrate this milestone achievement. "We have enjoyed a great relationship over the past six years with bmibaby and their services to both Manchester and Birmingham have proved hugely popular with people both in this region and in the UK and we look forward to further passenger growth and to expanding our route network with bmibaby in the coming years ”
What happen since as manchester is gone and what about birmingham is it going be the same?

[Cazza_fly]

What happen since as manchester is gone and what about birmingham is it going be the same?

bmibaby no longer have a base at MAN or operate any routes from there. They continue to operate BHX to NOC year round.

[TCX69]

Careers 2012

bmibaby is now recruiting Cabin Crew for the following locations:

East Midlands
Birmingham

[Unijet]

Anymore news on a buyer for baby?

[INKJET]

Work in progress:ok::ok::ok:

[ib26uk]

inkjet...

reveal all :ok:

[mathers_wales_uk]

Well Bruce Dickenson is now looking to spend his millions maybe he is looking into it.

[Cazza_fly]

From the bmibaby website;


Flying start for bmibaby at Stansted


bmibaby is celebrating a successful start at London Stansted Airport following the launch of its Belfast route earlier this year.

Carrying more than 60,000 customers in just six months, bmibaby is delighted with its initial operation from the London airport.
After a significant investment at its latest base, bmibaby has certainly got off to a flying start.

bmibaby is the only low cost airline to operate flights from Stansted Airport to George Best Belfast City Airport, which has contributed to the route’s impressive passenger numbers. Flying up to 11 times a week, the airline’s convenient flight times and high frequency has attracted a loyal base of both business and leisure customers.

Julian Carr, managing director, bmibaby, said:
“We are thrilled with the initial success we have enjoyed at Stansted Airport with our Belfast service. After investing in the airport, our first London base, offering customers convenient flights to Belfast, we have positioned the brand well in the region. As a result, we regularly achieve good load factors and have built up a loyal customer base.”

Recently voted Best Low Cost Airline by the discerning readers of Condé Nast Traveller Magazine, bmibaby flies from Stansted to Belfast up to 11 times a week with fares starting from just £19.99 one way including taxes.


It seems they are very pleased with this service contrary to some posters on here... Then again I guess has been posted from the bmi group :}

[True Blue]

Cazza fly

look at the stats for yourself. they are probably carrying about 60-70 pax average. Making money on that?

TB

[Danny_R]

Based on 60,000 pax using the service over 6 months, that gives an average load of 105 passengers per sector assuming 11 return flights per week....

[Flypuppy]

They seem to be awfully round numbers for a 6 month report. Even so using basic arithmetic, it is giving approx 70% load factors. This doesn't tie in with the number of pax I am hearing are actually flying the route.

More importantly, to justify the investment in the route, what is the yield?

Is it eating into the competition's pax numbers at all, like errrm bmi mainline to LHR....

[BHD2BFS]

apart from stansted, how is the load factors looking on the amsterdam route? it did have quite a lot of press when the route was announced along with the other european routes, but is it really having any efect on easyjet. if aer lingus couldnt make it work can baby do it?

[Cazza_fly]

They seem to be awfully round numbers for a 6 month report. Even so using basic arithmetic, it is giving approx 70% load factors. This doesn't tie in with the number of pax I am hearing are actually flying the route.

More importantly, to justify the investment in the route, what is the yield?

Is it eating into the competition's pax numbers at all, like errrm bmi mainline to LHR....


Agreed, they do look rounded up, but then this is a public press release and most people will not care for the actual number. This particular number shows a high amount (thousands) obviously close enough to the actual number to which in turn tells the public how ''popular'' the route is. As with most press releases of this nature it is free marketing.

As for yield, well as with pretty much any airline we are probably never going to know this information. However for them to carry the route on they must be achieving a set target to make it viable.

[sealink]

I've seen the odd day were the baby STN has more passengers booked than mainline LHR. AMS has quite low figures 30-40 at the start of the week i.e. Mon , Tues , Wed this can rise to 60-70 Fri when it is weekenders going for away for a few nights break.

[AltFlaps]

Let's not forget that the reason baby started STN was because they were told to do so by WPS. He saw it as part of a strategic bmi view - most probably because he wanted to start weaning the Mainline pax in prep for a Mainline departure from BHD. This obviously didn't happen due to all sorts of reasons.

But BHD is making a significant contribution towards the baby purse! :)

[Flypuppy]

As for yield, well as with pretty much any airline we are probably never going to know this information. However for them to carry the route on they must be achieving a set target to make it viable.The trick with an airline, and I don't mean to sound patronising, is to make money. Any idiot can fill an aeroplane, but being able to separate the pax from their hard earned is the name of the game. As far as I know only BCal managed to make a single route so profitable that it carried the rest of the network. With CWL and MAN now closed, there is an imperative to justify the decision to concentrate on BHD and the laughable Fortress East Mids concept.

But BHD is making a significant contribution towards the baby purse!Unless you know the yields, you can't say that with any certainty....

[EI-BUD]

apart from stansted, how is the load factors looking on the amsterdam route? it did have quite a lot of press when the route was announced along with the other european routes, but is it really having any efect on easyjet. if aer lingus couldnt make it work can baby do it?


BHD2BFS; I dont think that WW is having a huge impact on EZY, I dont see a big dip in passenger numbers, though we will be able to compare them in CAA stats with WW from BHD. Tonight I flew AMS BFS, there was 130 onboard, and WW left ahead of us for BHD with 66.

Aer Lingus could have made a daily flight to AMS work if it was well established, unfortunately, the demand on the route was soft and at best they would be able to get half of the numbers and that was some way off. WW have the same challenge now, a limited market that is profitable on a daily basis or maybe 9 per week (as per EZY current schedule). I cant comment on yield but I would guess that EZY are not losing money on the route but WW with the low fares that seem to be available coupled with less fuel effecient aircraft and use of major airport like AMS, can be a lot in it for them.

EZY has an earlier flight today also on AMS BFS but not sure of the numbers.

I dont think that 60k have been carried on BHD STN Ytd the first 2 months were well below 10k pax each.

EI-BUD

[OltonPete]

The actual figures for April - September per the CAA are: -

September..7512...94 rotations = 80 pax per flight 54% load factor

August.......9812...98 rotations = 100 pax per flight 67% load factor

July...........9644..100 rotations = 96 pax per flight 65% load factor

June..........9227..140 rotations = 66 pax per flight 47% load factor

May...........6842..130 rotations = 53 pax per flight 35% load factor

April...........5994..102 rotations = 59 pax per flight 39% load factor

Total........49031..664 rotations = 74 pax per flight 50% load factor

*March 882 passenger and provisional figures for October 7983

Load factor based on a 149 seat Boeing 733

Passenger figure Source: CAA
Rotation figures: CAA Punctuality Statistics

Pete

[Cyrano]

Quote:
But BHD is making a significant contribution towards the baby purse!

Unless you know the yields, you can't say that with any certainty....

I read this comment not as relating to the yields but as saying that the airport is providing a significant subsidy.

[Flypuppy]

Given Olton Pete's figures (which appear to be a little adrift of the press release's 60k), a subsidy from the airport would be needed.

[True Blue]

If my calculations are correct, Bhd - Stn had 7983 pax in October, with 92 rotations. This would equate to 86 pax per flight, a lf of about 57%.

TB

[Ian Brooks]

Well if they have based their figures on thru to end of November 66K is just about right

Ian B

[Facelookbovvered]

The rolling trend would suggest that around 100k+ per year is realistic on this route and whilst this is well down on what FR achieved i think baby will be more than happy with this number.

AMS is bound to take time to build given the limited spend on marketing at AMS, it will be very interesting to see the take up of the ski routes when GVA kicks off in a few weeks time, the Alps need a serious dump of snow after a very warm November accross much of Western Europe.

[G-AWZK]

i think baby will be more than happy with this number.

A low cost carrier that turns in load factors of around 50% should not be happy. At all.

[mutleyshriek]

The figures are definately being manipulated by bmi management as no dent has been made to easyJet loads at Bfs..The only carrier who has lost really is bmi mainline by up to 25 percent,as most of the pax they have lost are travelling with the baby so no gain at Bhd as per pax figures.As for Ams,my menzies contacts are saying loads are dismal to say the lease and wont be sustainable throughout the winter.Summer sun sun routes are also way behind targets set by revenue management .Again stupid decisions by bmi senior management who have always ignored the competition thinking their way is superior and people will book.Thats why they are in the state they are are in.

[INKJET]

Ah the "Menzies Contacts" school of yield management

Its the same team of bmibaby knockers who over the last two years have said variously that it would be bust by now, that STN would be pulled in months that baby would be out of BHD by the end of Summer.

Well yes STN is not full every flight, but a lot of them are, AMS is slow, but forward booking on a route that's been going for just 4 weeks are trending in the right direction and Summer booking are in line with what is happening to all airlines in the UK just now ie people are delaying making booking because of concerns over their future (not baby's) and a general lack of confidence. Look at TCX

If baby is having no effect on Easy then great, it means between the airlines there growing the routes and why are you worried either way.

With regards to bmi LHR from BHD is anyone surprised? if you want to be in central London early the quickest route from Belfast is bmibaby, Central London by just a few minutes past 9am is my record

[Cazza_fly]

Well yes STN is not full every flight, but a lot of them are, AMS is slow, but forward booking on a route that's been going for just 4 weeks are trending in the right direction and Summer booking are in line with what is happening to all airlines in the UK just now ie people are delaying making booking because of concerns over their future (not baby's) and a general lack of confidence. Look at TCX

Pretty much as I was going to say.

Mutleyshriek, Servisair are the handling agents for baby at BHD and STN.

[tigger2k8]

Some people tend to forget that November is a "dead" month in our little part of the UK when it comes to passenger numbers.. at this time of year its really only the London routes perform decent numbers throughout the week.. most other routes are peak weekend traffic and the "winter suns" even take a dip in numbers.. it'll be quiet until round the 7th December when students start moving around and shortly after that you get everyone travelling at Christmas..

Can't comment on BHD-STN, thought it would see better numbers by now, but as for BHD-AMS, N.I doesn't need 2-3 flights a day during the quiet winter period going to AMS, during summer.. most certainly

Welcome to winter

[Facelookbovvered]

Have to agree, it very quiet aloft.......

NI doesn't need 6 flights a day between Belfast and EMA either, but it seems Flybe won't give up and bmibaby can't give up! i guess that when bmibaby's new owners set out their plans going forward, then Flybe will be able to judge if bmibaby are to be in bhd long term and whether its worth them staying on the route, they too have had some very low numbers this past week on this route.

Looks like another couple of quid on short-haul APD from April.....:ugh:

[mutleyshriek]

Menzies are the agent in Ams and have access to inbound and outbound figures,I did not mention dismal loads on the Stn to with Menzies only Ams.Bmibaby management are far from happy on sun routes and the yeilds are dismal so far.I know guys because I worked at the group for over ten years and still have many connections there.Get a grip Inkjet,every route they launched from Bhd is underperforming ffs get real lad.

[bmi expat]

The handling agent for bmibaby in Amsterdam is actually Aviapartner.

[tigger2k8]

I think mutley is referring to the EZY BFS-AMS in that post

[Flypuppy]

Its the same team of bmibaby knockers who over the last two years have said variously that it would be bust by nowMate, you have to face the facts; if Lufthansa hadnt poured vast quantities of cash into the bmi group, it would have been bust two years ago...

[mart901]

Looking at EMA seems BE intending double daily right through summer and 3 rotations on a friday, WW continuing with 3 per day, will one concede I wonder? STN is down to 2 rotations throughout the year now which seems more prudent, easyjet have cut to 3 - 4 daily STN-BFS, obviously as a result of SEN flights, which may help WW somewhat.

[20feetretard]

What is the likelyhood that Baby are purchased by an airport? I had a conversation with somebody this week who suggested that there is an airport currently interested. It would seem to fit the ambitions of the said airport. Personally, I think that baby will end up involved with Jet2.

[JSCL]

Sounds like you're talking Stobart? If you are - not going to happen.

Airports running airlines doesn't work.

[20feetretard]

No it isn't Stobart.

[Derwent Dale]

Coventry Airport eh ?

[Leofric]

I don't know which, if any, airport is talking to BMIBaby but being "currently interested" is a whole lot different to concluding a deal.

The thing that has surprised me has been the way Baby have been announcing new routes while the sale process is going on, committing future owners to things they may not want.

[mart901]

I think the reason they are launching new routes is in a way a means of showing a viable brand and business a going concern rather than a dying duck. It also shows the consumer they are alive and well and keeps them front of mind marketing wise.

[INKJET]

Baby is being sold as a going concern and you can't just sit around twiddling your thumbs trying to second guess what the new owner might want, but given that it seems it's not another airline that's buying them then the business goes on including repainting aircraft, web updates, new routes, the brand still need promoting, so no not a dying duck.:ok:

[mart901]

Thats what I was saying. They will only land up being under valued sale price wise if they dont push forwards.

[Say again s l o w l y]

Agreed. Until the company is actually bought, then to do anything other than run the company properly is madness. Unfortunately I have seen a lot of people being paralysed within bmi recently (not in Baby I have to add) when it comes to decision making and forward planning.

Which is very stupid, it has to be business as usual until a sale is agreed and actually takes place.

[INKJET]

I think you are spot when you say " a lot of people being paralysed within bmi recently (not in Baby I have to add)" but i think that is understandable, baby has been an unwanted child by many in bmi for years now so where as people in baby are looking forward to the chance of a future, that hopefully will be with a parent that wants it, bmi staffers meanwhile have no real idea of what awaits and it will probably very different if it under IAG or VS

[EI-BUD]

but given that it seems it's not another airline that's buying them then the business goes on including repainting aircraft, web updates, new routes, the brand still need promoting, so no not a dying duck


Inkjet, I recall when the first news came that a buyer for bmi regional has emerged and huge speculation was on going about Mainline and baby, you stated on here something to the effect that bmibaby will be at Belfast City for the long term, here to stay etc. To make a statement like that you give the impression that you know what is going on. Now you are stating it seems that it's not another airline buying them. Who has told you this? There is no news in the public demain about that or have I missed something?

I do admire your passion for bmibaby but I think it is becoming an increasing hard sell even to your fellow 'pprune' people, no strategy, small fleet, old planes, uncertainty over the future of mainline, no point of difference (outside of EMA in my view), BHD base not delivering the goods e.g. poor performance of well established STN route, axing of MAN, CWL and diabolical performance of AMS route when many concerned said that BHD is the airport everybody wants to fly from, but strangely not from AMS (and many others where BFS sees the lions share of the passengers).

Can I also ask what does 'good forward bookings' mean by your definition, 25 passengers booked on some flights prior to route launch date?? Please do explain...

Merry Christmas to one and all on the forum.

EI-BUD

[acbus1]

Are there any credible explanations why anyone would want to buy bmibaby? :confused:

Ancient fleet, presented at least eight years too late to the market and at the very least ten times times too small to even begin to fend off any competition from the big sharks. Why would anyone volunteer for guaranteed financial suicide?

More to the point of this forum, why would any current bmibaby pilot hang around, only to suffer the inevitable in the near future, whether there's a buyer or not?

[INKJET]

I think we all agree that a sale to any airline is highly unlike, as ACbus says why would any airline buy them given the small size old fleet, which is leased, it would only make sense only if you wanted a 100 or so well trained pilots or to take baby out of the market, so a sale to another airline was always unlikely anyway.

The one thing baby does have is a brand and yes that is Midlands based and despite it's detractors it is of value.....the who will have to wait because there's more than one suitor and yes all of this is in the public domain and I'm not privy to what the bmi board and Lufthansa may or may not decide.

Let's see what 2012 brings

[mart901]

Does anyone know do WW still have 500 series left and if so where are they based?

[Cazza_fly]

Does anyone know do WW still have 500 series left and if so where are they based?

Yes two, G-BVKB & BVKE. You will normally see them at EMA but you will regularly see them at BHX and even BHD too so not always specific to which base.

[mart901]

Cheers Cazza_fly. I thought there was 2, and indeed never seen them in BHX or BHD. I did wonder if they would position them in BHD to help with load factors. Lovely little machines, aint flown in one for yrs!

[OltonPete]

mart901

The 735 is a rare sight at BHX these days. I have checked through libhomeradar and found that one was in for a couple of days mid October on the BHD and I know one popped in earlier this month or late last month for day or so.

The last time I flew on the 735 it looked a little worn but has since received some TLC. The 733's despite their age have always looked great once the seats were updated.

Winter 2011/summer 2012

I still see no reprieve for Prague and Munich at EMA with them both gone by mid April but Cologne stays.

I am surprised CGN is persisted with looking at the November figures of 1951 pax if that was four a week that equates to 61 per flight or 81 at 3 a week.
I am sure December would have been better with the Christmas market trade but in summer you would think there were better fish to fry.



Pete

[mart901]

Pete

Cheers for the info. Never in BHX these days I used to be there a lot yrs ago! Thanks for the info. Any WW a/c I've been on in the last few years has had leather seating, I don't think a lot of the general public would know they we're old(ish) a/c, they look great. Service and appearance of crew a lot better too. Any info on how their other routes are faring at BHX?

[OltonPete]

mart901

The aircraft utilisation this winter at BHX is similar to 2010/11 with the same
destinations. The flights where they are sole operator in November were good
but of course I have no idea of the yields.

Prague was up with a load factor approaching 80% and Knock was up 15%
although still just below 70%.

They seem to hold their own against KLM on the Amsterdam although can't say how they are doing against flybe on BHD as I don't have the breakdown.

The rest they compete with FR and ZB and figures on the whole were okay.

Next summer is a much better schedule with Rome, Lisbon and Barcelona returning plus increases on ALC and AGP. Nice tight busy schedule from late
May and not that bad from late March either.

Pete

[mart901]

Cheers Pete,

My next flight with them will be a STN-BHD, will be interesting to see the load. As you prob know EZY are moving some flights to SEN on their BFS route so this may help them.

[eastern wiseguy]

A relative flew BHD-AMS this morning....counted 20 persons on board...

[BHD2BFS]

I don't understand why they ddnt pick a route like Prague for the winter, at least they would have no competition, this goes for all the routes they decided to fly from Belfast. Seems like very poor planning and no original thinking

[BFS101]

They flew to Prague from BFS, last winter or the year before with a Cardiff based aircraft, think three times a week. If it was profitable then, I'm sure it would have returned.

[mart901]

It would have been nice to see some different routes from BHD but I guess summer sun is a safety shot. Its not just WW having bad loads, someone posted on EMA a FUA flight, FR I presume with 7 pax. Ive flown TOM to canaries at this time of year with around 50 pax on a 757

[EastMids]

Oh dear... From the IAG/BA/bmi announcement:

· Significant price reduction if Lufthansa does not opt to sell bmibaby before completion

So IAG get bmi CHEAPER if baby comes along with mainline... :eek: That would seem to indicate that both parties don't see any value in baby! :{ I really hope that someone picks up baby - today's announcement might just indicate Lufthansa will let it go really very cheaply rather than take less from IAG if baby has to go along with mainline.

Andy

[Say again s l o w l y]

That line in the press release is a significant kick in the teeth for Baby.

I really feel for them at the moment, they've been treated like a ginger stepchild for a long time and now this.

Here's hoping that they get bought by someone who knows what to do with them.

[mart901]

Clearly low cost doesnt fit into BA's strategy! I reckon theres always some private venture capital company out there, some of them specialise in turning business's around or even rescuing them, like R-capital. It looks like LH will try to sell WW for any price so thats right up venture capital street.......buy it for little, turn it round and sell it for a load more 3 or so years later.

[GayFriendly]

I know they have their critics and to be honest I don't think they have ever been given the muscle needed to become a serious loco player but I have always had enjoyable on time flights with Baby and have (in general)served my local airport BHX very well and have a strong brand presence in the Midlands.

Good luck to all the staff concerned but it is clear that neither LH or BA see a future for Baby. BA are certainly not interested in low cost, at best BE take over some of their routes from BHX and maybe EMA, at worst the airline completely disappears with FR, Jet2 et al taking over any (if any?) profitable route pickings. I have my doubts that someone will buy it, if they do I think it will be a merger into another airline with the brand still disappearing. Very sad times indeed.

[EI-BUD]

The competition will be more confident than ever that bmibaby can be wiped off the map. Jet2 and Ryanair will ramp up EMA next summer and LH will simply wind up the operation. That's what I would expect now, if it is losing money, why would LH wait any longer than end of 2012 summer season to wind it up, given than bmi mainline will be gone and regional sale will likely will be complete.

Besides from a cost point of view, what shared services do bmi and bmibaby have? The cost benefit of WW using some bmi mainline services either management/head office/admin/systems etc etc add as appropriate, these will all become more expensive for WW as a standalone airline?

EI-BUD

[jabird]

For Team America fans, I can't help thinking poor baby is left like our recently departed dear reader.

I'm so ronery, nobody rikes me, and now I'm even less than worthless.:ugh:

Sorry for those involved, I've never liked the name / brand but still a good service at a fair price, no complaints from the times I've used them.

[20feetretard]

Baby will grow up in to a fine upstanding member of the community now that it is likely to be freed from the shackles of uncaring parents. The future looks bright and the next few weeks are likely to bring positive news, the chance to really show what it can do and it should move with confidence in to the new year. Having it's destiny in it's own hands is a good thing.

[LGS6753]

Reading the press release from IAG today, there seem to be two alternatives re. bmibaby:

1. LH sell it before completing on the sale of the Group to IAG
2. LH fail to sell it, and take a lower price from IAG

If it has not been sold by the time LH complete the sale to IAG, it will go to IAG. I don't feel it's viable in LH without BMI. And LH want rid of it.

Unfortunately, baby is seen as a liability by both carriers - if it has any future, it will be under different ownership.

[crewmeal]

the chance to really show what it can do and it should move with confidence in to the new year. Having it's destiny in it's own hands is a good thing.

Closing 2 bases MAN & CWL. Not the wisest of moves in my view. To succeed the airline needs a lot of investment and to be properly marketed with proper advertising. Not using childish irritating voices sponsoring local ITV weather forecasts.

[20feetretard]

Closing the two bases was a requirement at the time. In your view it may not have been 'the wisest of moves' but with respect you were/are not likely to be aware of the circumstances both financial and operational that lead to the decision.
New owners will bring a new name and therefore a new brand. Baby will not be appropriate and therefore the current themed advertising will go.
Your other requirements to succeed will be met, why would you buy a company and then not invest in and market the product?

[SWBKCB]

What's happening with the appeal re the Baby vs Peel court case in connection with MME - wasn't it £15M? Where would the liability for this lie? Could be a complicating fact in any sale.

[EI-BUD]

I think the MME case was settled some time ago, last year I think.

[16024]

I think the MME case was settled some time ago, last year I think.
Well the first decision was overturned on appeal, and that reversal itself was subject to appeal. AFAIK that is the current situation.
Which leads to:
you were/are not likely to be aware of the circumstances both financial and operational that lead to the decision.
In relation to closing bases.
With respect to those whose job it is, or was, to make commercial decisions. If they had been correct at the time we wouldn't be having this discussion.
Waiting until summer of 2004 to try to expand, for example. Thereby having to sign up for punishingly expensive leases, and having to recruit anyone they could get their hands on at short notice. Even I could have done it better, and I'm just a driver.
On a positive note, a valid AOC, sound professional operations, good foothold on long term route structure. She's a going concern, and I hope there's a future.

[ryan2000]

Any buyer will need to look beyond legacy 737's. Maybe it should purchase the BMIbrand name if BA decide to drop it. This seems inevitable.

[pabely]

Don't you think the BMI brand is dead? It has had such negative press over the last year, who would want it? It has great people working for it but has been mis-managed for too long now.
I just hope IAG absorb the 'best' of the brand/people....

[MidlandDeltic]

mart901 wrote :

Clearly low cost doesnt fit into BA's strategy! I reckon theres always some private venture capital company out there, some of them specialise in turning business's around or even rescuing them, like R-capital. It looks like LH will try to sell WW for any price so thats right up venture capital street.......buy it for little, turn it round and sell it for a load more 3 or so years later.

BA have never been interested in low cost - even Go were not really low-cost.

Not sure baby is attractive to venture capitalists. There are no assets to speak of, so nothing to be stripped out. Old aircraft that need replacing - but with what penalties to get out of the leases? A brand which will need totally revamping or replacing, which takes time to build, in the face of established competitors such as Ryanair and the fast growing Jet2.

LH will now be keen to sell at any price, but I cannot see who will buy. Staff must hope for a purchaser however, because if it goes to BA they will shut it down - that is I suspect why the price paid to LH would be reduced, to covers the contingency costs of getting out of the leases etc.

MD

[OltonPete]

pabely

Not in the Midlands especially when it is followed by "Baby" ;)
I am not sure how much of BMI's recent woes have even
been noticed in the Midlands until this week, as the main brand
both in the East and West has been BMI Baby for years now.

It would be unfortunate if the "BMI" bit had to be dropped
but I am sure that all concerned are planning life with or
without the BMI tag.

Ever how much those weather adverts seem irritating to some
it does seem to have worked and the brand is alive and well here.

Pete

[one day soon]

'Bmi brand' may be as good as dead, as some on here have suggested, however this is the 'Bmibaby' thread and to be fair to them 'Baby' is still a very well known brand in the North and Midlands areas. So maybe someone will see a benefit in purchasing a Brand name and solid workforce for what seems likely to be a VERY cheap price.
Heres hoping :ok:

[one day soon]

Well 'Pete'
Looks like you beat me to it by 2 minutes, D@mn my slow typing... I should stick to waggling joysticks ;)

[Monty Gordo]

OP

Should the worst case scenario happen and Baby were no longer operating, what are the relevant pax figures for both Bhx and Ema onver a 12 month period.

Do you have any idea as to how many pax we are talking about and who might pick them up?

[CabinCrewe]

"BA have never been interested in low cost - even Go were not really low-cost"
They werent ? Separate base, separate fleet, flights for £5, buy on board...

[righthandrule]

The thing is Go still had the massive overheads of BA, not to mention the top heavy management.

As for BHX/EMA, Jet2 are going a great job of stealing baby's thunder certainly at EMA. Should baby be shut down, I'd expect to see 7/8 Jet2 aircraft at EMA overnight. The brand has done extremely well, much better than expectations operationally and most surprisingly/importantly, financially. I'd expect Ryanair to blitz with increased routes. Perhaps easyJet might regret pulling EMA the way they did. I'd imagine the same for BHX, I know Jet2 are interested but I'm sure Ryanair & flybe would jump on the brummie brand wagon with increases.

In the short term there would be substantial passenger decreases at EMA/BHX but long term the routes would be well served again a year on. Whatever happens to Baby, it cannot rest upon its laurels in the midlands. Like it or not, the big 2 have now become the big 3 (in the UK loco Market anyway) Ryanair, easyJet & Jet2. Even the most loyal baby supporters must agree that there needs to be a major product overhaul, fleet plan and dramatic restructuring to keep baby a profitable operation.

I have always had good experiences with baby, and it's terrible to think of another UK airline going, but is it really realistic to see baby being able to compete with the biggies without the financial backing of luftie/bmi?! I hate to say it, but I think there is a blood bath coming and it may be a sad end for baby. :uhoh:

If baby was really profitable and an optimistic operation, surely lufthansa would charge IAG MORE to include it in the deal, not less? Good luck to all the baby guys and gals.

[OltonPete]

Monty Gordo

Based on four aircraft in summer and 2/3 in winter I would say about a half a million passengers if they went completely.

What would be replaced is difficult to say. When they cut Rome, Lisbon, Barcelona and Madrid last time nobody rushed to take any of those routes despite the healthy load factors for most of the year.

Ryanair maybe would add additional capacity to the sun routes as would Monarch, flybe would increase Belfast City....City routes????????

flybe are as inactive as ever at BHX for new routes and whether the 175
will change that who knows.

righthandrule

Interesting points you make about Jet2 at EMA, as I was shocked at the lack of utilisation of the aircraft last summer and they are almost invisible this winter. Granted the 2012 schedule is a great improvement and Jet2 do seem to have an advantage that they don't seem to need to fly all their aircraft as they own most of their fleet compared to baby who have leases to pay.

EMA's figures last summer were okay but they were up against an atrocious offering from BHX which will not be the same in 2012 if all goes to plan with an extra baby and two extra Monarch aircraft.

Pete

[INKJET]

Nothing new or unknown here, DLH agreed a few months back to sell bmi group to IAG and have now agreed a price to do so. Baby and regional are wholly owned of bmi group and therefore any buyer acquiring the shares of bmi will get both regional and baby, simples.

Regional has taken a little longer than planned and baby's interested parties have had to play second fiddle to the IAG and last minute VS bids, now that's out of the way we need to get Xmas out the way and move on.

If either deal was to fail then IAG will have to taken on the liabilities, hence the lower price to reflect these, be under no doubt the money flow will be from DLH to IAG and DHL still have the pension liabilities for bmi.

Clearly people have different views on baby's product offering, but the paying public is what counts not Ppruner's!

The old chestnut of ageing 737 comes up every few days, but remember Jet2 classics are older!! Jet2 haven't even bothered turning up for the winter ski season in the midlands.

That baby will be sold(given away) or closed is probably correct, in the mean time its very much business as usual and there is no hemorrhaging of staff, staff moral or customers more importantly, of course uncertainties is less than ideal for all, but we deal with it, its hardly new in bmi is it?

So I remain 100% confident that baby will have a future under a new owner and there will be NO " Iranian" style wiping of baby off the map at EMA by Ryanair and certainly not Jet2, parking a 757 for weeks on end with engine covers on is not a business plan at best its a billboard and should have been flying to Egypt had events not over taken them.

So we wrap 2011 up where we started, but hey ho ho ho we are still here, bring on 2012 i say,

Merry Xmas to one and all and a Happy new year:ok::ok::ok::ok:

[SWBKCB]

So it looks like the judgement is still under appeal and in the meantime the ownership of both WW and MME has changed at least once, with more changes on the way - interesting with £15m (?) in the balance...

[mart901]

Does anyone know who is interested in buying baby? As well as Jet2 having old cart horses Thomson, Monarch and Thomas cook have their own fair share too. The brand is well recognised and lately has been coming up trumps for punctuality and customer service, probably better than for a long time in fairlness. It would be a shame if they were not given the chance to carry on.:=

[jabird]

Perhaps easyJet might regret pulling EMA the way they did. I'd imagine the same for BHX, I know Jet2 are interested but I'm sure Ryanair & flybe would jump on the brummie brand wagon with increases.

This reminds me of the quote Stelios made back when he was still running his airline and not trying to destroy it. He asked either BHX or CVT to 'make me an offer I can't refuse'.

Were baby to exit BHX (or everywhere) completely, I'm sure Easy would take a good look again, doubt they would want to go back to EMA, if they thought there was a long term future there, they would have held on, they are a far bigger brand that the tiny one.

CVT obviously keen too to get back in the game, but I would suspect Easy could talk to both, and use CVT as a bargaining chip to get a good price at BHX - after all, it really doesn't look good right now going past a big Ryanair parking lot.

With regards to the punters, they will probably tolerate relatively old aircraft, afer all, they aren't that ancient, Ryanair had 732s not that long ago. They probably don't think too hard about the brand offering, if the service is reasonably reliable and it takes them to the Costas at a fair price. But one thing they will worry about is whether or not to make an advance booking with an airline who's future is very uncertain.

We've seen too many airlines just vanish overnight, and even if baby may still be a going concern, and it may be absorbed into another entity, or wound up with dignity, people still make a whole load of other arrangements with their flight bookings (hotels etc), for which the airline has no consequential liability if they cease operating.

Speaking of which, is there a precedent for an airline being wound up by its owners voluntarily, announcing a date to cease operations and honouring all bookings until that date? Considering how occupancy levels would drop off during this period, can an airline be wound down in this manner?

[mart901]

Is it possible IAG could sell on WW if they landed up purchasing it? In terms of people buying seats there hasnt been that much press exposure, nothing to the degree say of TCX. Very liittle mention of WW press wise and as far as a lot of people will be concerned bmi has been bought, its not till you read further into it you realise all the dynamics.

[jabird]

Is it possible IAG could sell on WW if they landed up purchasing it?

I presume they just don't want the hassle. How would you add value and sell on at a profit, what are the assets to strip. BMI mainline, with slots at LHR and 320 series fleet clearly has value to BA, I presume there is a niche for Regional, because some of their yields are huge.

[mart901]

Reading the press articles it looks like they really want rid of WW, I daresay if the price is low enough someone will always take it.

[jabird]

But that is still assuming the value is in positive territory. The baby is now almost a ten year old, a lot of money has been invested in his education, what profits are there to show for this?

[CabinCrewe]

Wasnt "Go" managed independently with Babs Cassani ?

[mart901]

Go was sold to 3i capital and then ran independantly till they sold to EZY

[MidlandDeltic]

"BA have never been interested in low cost - even Go were not really low-cost"
They werent ? Separate base, separate fleet, flights for £5, buy on board...

No. They may have been low(ish) fare, but they were not low cost. Expensive brand consultants, focus groups, etc etc, as opposed to the Easyjet / Ryanair self-branding. Much of the background paperwork was directly lifted from BA - hardly low cost!

For proof, look what happened when they went for Scotland - Dublin. FR wiped the floor with them, and drove them off the routes in a few months with very low fares while still making money.

@Inkjet
I think the difference following the latest news release is that BA see baby , as not as having little value, but as a definite liaibility given the "substantial reduction" in the price paid overall if baby is included in the deal. To me, this sends out a clear message that BA are looking at closedown if it goes to them, and the reduction is to cover the liabilities on redundancies, aircraft and property leases. The only hope I can see is that DLH have accepted this deal on the basis that they have a solid offer in the background for baby, as we know they have for regional. As I said, I don't know who would want baby in its' current form, and there appear to be no rumours as to such a buyer in the background. Realistically, I can only see Jet2 wanting it for the routes and airport access; while their classics may be older than baby's, I believe they do have some NGs on the way.

I do not want to see baby disappear, and as someone unemployed for some time now I have every sympathy with those whose job prospects are less than certain, but I think baby came too late to the market, and has suffered through piecemeal development and constantly changing aims and aspirations, rather than building core markets. Sad times indeed.

MD

[INKJET]

Agree with much of your post, i don't agree however that baby came to the market late, they have been around 10 years next month.

BA will not close baby down before the end of Summer 2012, in simple terms it would cost to much to do so, baby makes money over the summer, but manages to loose even more in winter. BA must now wait for competition clearance before they can do anything and are not expected to conclude the ownership procces until April 2012, in the mean time they have lent bmi £60m to cover winter cash flow secured against its slots should the deal fall through, so as you can see there is no impact on the little fella! at least in the short term.

The next indicator will be release of baby's winter 2012/13 program, if it were to end up with BA i don't think there will be one, detailed planning is well underway for this however and i expect it will be on sale in March.

It does have a substantial core business with many very profitable routes, but it has been starved of investment and the constant moving of goal post by the bmi board who wanted it to stand on its own two feet, but wouldn't let it do so.

The whole BA thing is largely irrelevant, baby should all things being equal be with its new foster parents by early February

Finnally as we say good by to 2011, lets let the people who are charged with selling/buying baby have a Xmas break and come back in early in the New year and put this ownership issue to bed.

Happy New Year

[EI-BUD]

MidlandDeltic;
while you are right in saying that Go were not exactly low cost, the reference to what happened to them when they entered Scotland Dublin is not especially proof of anything. It would have been no different for Easyjet or any other airline for that matter, had they started flying the route.

I disagree strongly that Ryanair made a profit on Dublin Scotland route in competition with Go. Most seats on DUB EDI were priced as low as £5, I remember booking on a Thursday to fly the next day at £5, most morning and evening flights were packed with day trippers paying next to nothing to fly. Outside of first and last flights of the day in each direction, the loads were poor enough. There were now 7/8 extra 737s in each direction compared to prior to Go when it was only EI on the route with 2/3 F50s per day.... So there was massive over capacity. Ryanair lost buckets of cash and albeit lost alot less than Go did. However, Ryanair saw this as a major investment in terms of making a statement to intending entrants to their patch especially in Ireland.


EI-BUD

[mart901]

A few years later mytravellite (RIP) entered the BHX-DUB route and 2 minutes later FR went from 2 to 5 flights a day and started routes from BHX to spain on a W pattern to try and drive them off. FR backed down in that one, blaming guess what - landing fees. The same FR thats vanished from DUB - ABZ since EIR appeared, blaming guess what - landing fees! I dont believe any airline in this market can bleed itself to death so I dont believe for one minute nobody can compete with them. Another such case is EZY who backed off EMA scottish routes that WW still operate.

[EI-BUD]

mart901

Of course other airlines can compete with FR, but they must be able to differentiate themselves in some way that takes a focus off the price.

The example you gave of ABZ DUB is a case in point, EIR can differentiate by 1. flying a smaller realistic size aircraft with good value tickets,2. EIR are not totally reliant on point to point ABZ DUB pax as they have the advantage of feeding pax to EI US network. 3. 738 is not suited to many thinner markets such as DUBABZ and other tried markets where no competition exists such as DUB HUY, DUB CWL.

Interestingly enough in terms of Go, they despite being not so low cost etc they did start flying Scheduled low fare routes to Sun destinations and these were a success from the start. EZY and FR did follow their lead on this one, when prior to that these markets were the remit of the package holiday companies and charter airlines... And how things have changes since then!

EI-BUD

[FR-]

And back to BMI Baby . . . . .

fr-

[jabird]

FR,

To get back on thread. Why would Jet2 want baby?

Realistically, I can only see Jet2 wanting it for the routes and airport access; while their classics may be older than baby's, I believe they do have some NGs on the way.

Within the Eu Open Skies area, a route is just a line on the map - at the destination end, where if anywhere would baby have a better deal than Jet2? As for the UK bases, Jet2 have seen baby off at MAN, baby have retreated at MME, perhaps the reasonable sized northern airport Jet2 have shown no interest in, and so far, the space left vacant at CWL is still largely vacant.

EMA is much less busy then it used to be - if Jet2 want to expand there, who is going to stop them, with or without baby. As for Belfast, no way Jet2 would want two bases in a relatively small market.

So that leaves BHX, and airport with big ambitions for long haul, but huge gaps in its short haul network. Again, if Jet2 wanted in as is, they would presumably be welcomed in with open arms. Flybe already enjoying no competiton on the Scottish Central routes, Ryanair could fill many of the gaps left if baby went, especially now they aren't so picky about using the cheapest airports.

Baby going might leave a space for Easy to take another look, but I just can't see why either airline, or any of the others would need to take on the fleet / staff / contracts of baby when they could just cherry pick the routes which will suit their busines model, instead of adapting to fit the deals negotiated by the incumbent carrier.

[Facelookbovvered]

I think it would be more accurate to say that baby saw themselves off at MAN rather than anything to do with Jet2 or FR or Easy for that matter, my understanding is that all of baby's airport contracts are handled by bmi legal dept, who as the( left hand) signed a pax volume based deal with MAG based on 5-7 aircraft worth of passengers some years back, meanwhile bmi planning ( right hand) allocated aircraft resources that meant only 2 aircraft were available for MAN, it was much the same with MME planning wanted 6+ aircraft in BHX but legal had signed a contract at MME they thought they could walk away from, hence its my understanding that this long running saga with MME is a group liability not a baby one, again CWL was undermined by the need to put an aircraft into BHD for the STN route at the behest of bmi group planning baby management only wanted to move ops to BHD from BFS, not get involved with night stopping aircraft & crews, although i gather STN is doing well now.

Jabird why do you think CWL is a Northern Airport or is Coventry in Northern France??

I can't see bmibaby being bought by another airline ( other than the IAG deal) but everyone I speak to at baby seems very confident that it will be sold within weeks and either NG's or Airbus will be on the fleet within 12 months, great news for all and the industry if that comes to pass.

[yeo valley]

cwl in northern england.
dare i say it,perhaps jabird has ryanair on his mind.??

[acbus1]

...i don't agree however that baby came to the market late, they have been around 10 years next month.


bmibaby was formed shortly after bmi management (I use the term loosely) had declared that EMA passenger figures could no longer support the few Fokkers based there and that smaller Embraers would replace them.

Shortly after that announcement, Go/Easyjet moved in and EMA went ballistic.

bmi realised they'd missed a trick and they should have realised they'd missed it for years. Their policy of downsizing to Embraers suddenly became a rush to upsize to 737's.

The attempt failed, because it was too timid, badly managed (of course) and too late. If you want to beat the Easyjets and Ryanairs of this world, you need to be at least as big and better managed. The only way to be as big, unless some Arab billionaire is on your side, is to enter the market small and build the business up as rapidly as it will tolerate. You won't build the business up if the competion have already achieved greater than a critical mass - you'll be gobbled up instead.

...or you'll do what baby have done and constantly be on the run from any competition. Fugitives on the run always come a cropper in the end. The impending sale (if baby is 'lucky') is the beginning of the inevitable end.

[mart901]

Facelookbovvad


Do you have any stats on WW STN route as you said its doing well, theres been nothing but ridicule of it on here so I wondered, been a while since Ive been on it.......and which tube line is CWL on (LOL)

[EI-BUD]

mart901

The stats for STN BHD and all routes are freely available on the CAA website, the route carried a total of 7650 in November (thats 3825 each way), you do that math, I wouldnt be too happy about it if I was running the company.I think it was mentioned at that average per flight was about 79...from what I can see and what I have heard the fares being collected are not exceptional so I cant see the yield being great either.

At least it is not as dire as BHD AMS average per flight of 26, and it probably get much worse given that one Sunday I saw the 733 leave AMS with 66!!

EI- BUD

[mart901]

Yeah that would be 79 pax with 12 flights per week over 4 weeks. I did find pax details long time ago forgot where so thanks for that......I may be gone for some time lol.....

[jabird]

cwl in northern england.
dare i say it,perhaps jabird has ryanair on his mind.??

No pedants, just the way you read my paragraph. The northern reference was to the fact that Jet2 had never been into MME, a former WW base.

MME, perhaps the reasonable sized northern airport Jet2 have shown no interest in, and so far, the space left vacant at CWL is still largely vacant.

Perhaps that should have read:

MME, perhaps the reasonable sized northern airport Jet2 have shown no interest in. So far, the space left vacant at CWL is also still largely vacant.

As for Coventry, we have to make do with BHX being Coventry West, at least we have a decent cathedral and a funny memorial to the inventor of the jet :ugh:

Maybe we could have parked a few of MOLs 738s too, they wouldn't have had any payload on the way out, and I'm sure he would have got a good rate :D

[nigel osborne]

Jabird,

The thing with all the extra 738s of Ryan Air, is that they keep swopping them over, so they are not really in cold storage.So would not have been suitable for Coventry

Im told Serviceair are a bit peed off as they don't get paid any more, when asked by Ryan Air to tow and get all these extras ready, presumably to keep each planes hours in the air similar,:ooh:

Looks like BHX Management have been done like a dog by the clever Ryan Air, who know doubt have paid BHX a pittance:ugh: for clogging all our stands !:=

Nigel

[mathers_wales_uk]

bmibaby's search to make the most money out of the lack of investment in fleet expansion was the main demise for CWL.

bmibaby was on the verge of adding a 4th aircraft at CWL after it re-located from MME closure for it to be sent to BHX to compete against Flybe.

This meant bmibaby constantly adding new routes and removing them even before operating them and adding them quite late without much advertising.

The local weather advertising at one stage was even advertising flights from Birmingham rather than CWL.

Thomas Cook even started buying seats on bmibaby flights to PMI, MAH, AGP to name a few which is a reason why bmibaby should have expanded their fleet at CWL rather than drop it from 3 to 2 and then 1.5 and crew having to hotel accomodate to support the Mon-Fri base of aircraft at BHD.

So to cover their own backsides bmibaby left CWL with a huge statement saying CWL was no financially viable for them. So CWL is struggling to attract new airlines as a direct impact of bmibaby constant chopping and changing of routes and announcing that CLW not profitable.

If bmibaby stood on their own two feet a few years back then i would imagine they would have had in excess of 30 aircraft now and CWL & MAN would still be a base.

[crewmeal]

Im told Serviceair are a bit peed off as they don't get paid any more, when asked by Ryan Air to tow and get all these extras ready, presumably to keep each planes hours in the air similar,

If that's the case why do they do it? They are in business like any company. They must be frightened by the thought of them going elsewhere I guess.

Looks like BHX Management have been done like a dog by the clever Ryan Air, who know doubt have paid BHX a pittance for clogging all our stands !

I'm sure the management will find other ways of screwing passengers for example raising those stupid car park charges and upping the price of trollies:ugh::ugh:

[elle may clampit]

Are we any closer to the announcement of a new owner. This uncertain period is not doing the prospects of a successful takeover any good at all. I hear the forward bookings are not good at all, having said that, I've booked BHD to Faro for July and it wasn't exactly cheap.

[20feetretard]

Well a few new flight crew are starting their type ratings next week so they must feel fairly confident about the future and they are spending far more than a ticket to Faro!

[INKJET]

I'm not sure that the lack of an announcement is having any effect on bookings and I doubt that an announcement would change anything, my understanding is that everything is still on track for a MOU to be signed before month end.

A round a dozen new flight deck required for a very busy summer season.

Detailed planning for next winter is well under way, but nothing will be released until ownership resolved.

[G-AWZK]

I have heard that Aero Contractors Ltd are the only interested party. There was a loud laugh in the pub last night when it was suggested that there would be a management buy out.

[Firestorm]

People who are desperate for a job and the chance to get a 737 on their licence will join anything at the moment: they are like teenagers trying to cop their first feel, and confusing lubricant and puss, so I wouldn't use that as an endorsement for booking tickets for a holiday!

[buildaburger]

I know it's old but here goes!
IF YOU WANT TO MAKE A SMALL FORTUNE IN AVIATION THEN START OF WITH A BIG ONE.

If there are any big investors out there then may I suggest putting money into the rebirth of Dansette!
They made some fantastic record players in the 60's and mine still works perfectly.
Certainly a better investment than two regional airlines that have been selected for extinction by the economic climate.
Ebay is very good for disposal of uniforms and headsets and what a pity you can't sell ego.
Still,nothing good lasts forever and money losing airlines last a lot less.
It was quoted in the Times some years ago that the pilot was dropped from professional status to the skilled table along with plumbers and electricians.
And by the time Bae systems are finnished we'll be in with the car washer's who are minting it.
So the there is light at the end of the tunnel, some of the good car wash places give you a uniform.
:)

[Icabod]

Firestorm dear boy, spoken just like an impetuous teenager not given the oportunity or possibly had a grope and discovered you aren't up to it:=

Shame you have to spoil the fun for others.

I

[runway30]

It has been reported that Intro Aviation is in talks to acquire Bmibaby.

[sarcon]

Lufthansa said today that there were a number of interested parties and
Intro followed on to say that they were interested and that the airline had great potential for restructuring. They also said the loss last year by baby was in the region of Euro129m. Difficult but not impossible. Good luck.
They asl said that if the sale wasnt complete by May they would shut the operation. This is not me just being negative the release is on ABTN but I can't link it. They also added that a UK airline had agreed to purchase regional.

[Flying Wild]

Word from inside Baby is that the loss was in the region of £25m last year which is somewhat different from €129m!

The official line from the company is that "there are several interested parties and we are in the process of identifying the preferred buyer and aim to conclude a purchase agreement as soon as possible.”

From elsewhere...
Lufthansa in Talks to Sell Bmibaby Unit to Intro of Germany - Bloomberg (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-01-20/lufthansa-may-sell-bmibaby-to-intro-of-germany.html)

Deutsche Lufthansa AG (LHA) is in talks to sell the discount division of its British BMI subsidiary to German turnaround specialist Intro Aviation GmbH, Intro Chief Executive Officer Peter Oncken said in an interview.
“We have expressed our interest and the whole procedure is now beginning,” Oncken said by telephone. “The books are being opened and we are looking at the business in detail. We will see if it can be restructured.”
Lufthansa, Europe’s second-biggest airline, is seeking a buyer for the bmibaby discount unit after agreeing last month to sell BMI to British Airways parent International Consolidated Airlines Group SA (IAG) for 172.5 million pounds ($267 million). Other parties are also interested in the low-cost arm, BMI said today.
Oncken said that, from initial figures, bmibaby could probably be restructured “relatively quickly,” though the operation is closely integrated with the rest of BMI. Intro Aviation would draw on its experience in turning around former British Airways unit Deutsche BA and Germany’s LTU, he said.
“There are ongoing talks, but we can’t give any further details,” Lufthansa spokeswoman Claudia Lange said. The Cologne-based carrier, which has said it wants to conclude the main deal with IAG this quarter, closed 0.1 percent lower at 10.16 euros in Frankfurt.
‘Several’ Bidders
BMI aims to conclude a sale of bmibaby “as soon as possible,” it said in response to an e-mail seeking comment.
“There are several interested parties and we are in the process of identifying the preferred buyer,” the company said, adding that a deal has also been concluded with a U.K. buyer for its BMI Regional arm, subject to “certain preconditions.”
The regional unit operates from cities including Aberdeen, Edinburgh and Glasgow in Scotland and Manchester in northwest England using a fleet of 19 Embraer SA (EMBR3) ERJ-135 and ERJ-145 jets, according to data compiled by aviation consultancy Ascend.
London-based IAG, which wants BMI for the take-off and landing slots at the U.K. capital’s crowded Heathrow airport used by its mainline operation, will get a discount on the purchase price if Lufthansa fails to offload bmibaby. IAG (IAG)rose 2.4 percent before closing up 1.3 percent at 167.60 pence.
Boeing Fleet
Bmibaby, based in Castle Donington in central England, operates 12 Boeing Co. (BA) 737-300 aircraft and two 737-500 variants from bases at nearby East Midlands and Birmingham airports and from Belfast in Northern Ireland.
The unit had a loss of about 120 million euros ($129 million) last year, according to Credit Suisse Group analyst Neil Glynn, who has “neutral” ratings on Lufthansa and IAG.
Given that the German airline has agreed to reduce BMI’s selling price should it fail to dispose of bmibaby, the company will be “essentially paying restructuring costs to someone to take it off their hands,” London-based Glynn said.
Intro Aviation was founded by Oncken and German retail entrepreneur Hans Rudolf Wohrl, who previously ran Nuremburg- based carrier NFD before selling the company to Eurowings in 1992, according to Intro’s website.
Wohrl became CEO of Deutsche BA in 2003, having initially being hired by British Airways to shut the German unit. After refocusing the company, known as DBA, on the high-frequency business travel market, it was sold to Air Berlin Plc (AB1) in 2006.
LTU was acquired by Intro Aviation in the same year that DBA was sold, with Oncken as CEO and Wohrl as chairman. It was also bought by Air Berlin, in 2007, the website says.
“I think it is dependent upon the experience we have gathered over the decades,” Oncken said of Intro’s interest in bmibaby. “I can’t at this stage say whether it would be like the Deutsche BA model.”
Intro Aviation also has a number of other parallel airline projects, including a commuter carrier in the Caribbean, which it “may be interested in integrating,” the executive said, without specifying what the nature of any synergies might be.

[GayFriendly]

BMIBaby turns into UK Wings? I can think of worse things to happen.

Would love to see them link up with a commuter operation in the Caribbean ;) Now that really would be a turn up for the books....

[Cyrano]

They also added that a UK airline had agreed to purchase regional.

Careful you don't set off another little frenzy of misinformed speculation. I believe they referred to a UK BUYER but did not say that the buyer is an airline.

[SWBKCB]

Does anybody know where the potential liability to MME/Peel for baby pulling out lies in the bmi/LH/IAG deal?

[Firestorm]

Icabod: I speak with inside experience of BMI Baby, and experience of other airlines where chaps were paying for type ratings and line training. A 737 rating with experience on the 300 & 500 is worth ext to nothing in the modern world.

[Facelookbovvered]

Not sure what point you are making here? you sound pass tense re baby? in any event people are not collecting type rating's its a job on a medium size Jet with a company that has an excellent reputation for its training department........i know of a few who left them this year that have gone on to the 747 with BA the 777 with EK a few thousand hours on a 737 of any model speaks volumes on a CV.

Icabod: Trolls are best ignored:cool:

[Montezuma]

You have an airline with 14 old jets.

That airline is losing £25 million a year.

That is £1785715 per airplane annually.

Per day, that comes to £4893 per jet.

That is a fair amount of turning round.

At 8 hours per day, that is 611 people per jet taking a £1 per hour pay cut.

Or all 550 employees taking a huge hit ( 15.5 multiple) on pay.

And someone wants to buy this?

[eastern wiseguy]

Ddee737

In ABTN

If the no-frills carrier is not sold by May 2012, then Lufthansa has to pay compensation to IAG to “cover costs of an orderly exit”, which effectively means shutting down the airline.

[Flypuppy]

Intro, as a German company, are likely to be the preferred bidder. I can't imagine anyone else being able to match what they bring to the table, in Lufthansa's eyes. I already know that one party has has now walked, and if Intro don't take the company on, I can't see there being much other interest.

[JSCL]

if Intro don't take the company on, I can't see there being much other interest.

I can see if Intro don't take the company on, there will be a few other 'groups' waiting in the wings (if you'll pardon the pun heh?) to bring offers to the table such as 1 Euro offers to take on the 'burden'. It'll happen, no doubt.

[Montezuma]

JSCL, It won't be 1 Euro: Lufthansa will have to pay someone to take baby off their hands.

[davidjohnson6]

If Intro sign the paperwork before May 2012, then baby survives in some form - although subject to some restructuring

If Intro walk away, how long does baby have before IAG turn nasty ?
Does baby make money on its flights during the summer season (i.e. June to August) meaning IAG are incentivised to wait until the autumn before anything happens, or is even summer season flying loss making ? Would a desire not to be seen in the press to be wrecking people's summer holidays have any influence on such a decision as well ?

[nigel osborne]

Unfortunately ruining peoples holidays is not top priority for airlines sadly.

Just look at all the failed airlines from the past,allowing passengers to pay and turn up to fly, when they know they are about to go bust, passengers even at the airport never warned.:=

Think its been made clear that if their is no deal for BMI Baby by May LH will wind it up.

However that is some distance away and you would hope for an agreement within weeks and not months.As articles have said, it is not just the German company that are in talks.

Nigel

[HH6702]

I'm sure that baby will fly until end of summer season 31st oct if a buyer can't be found.

If at end of may no buyer is found then the staff will be told and aircraft returned to leasing companies in oct when airline will close.

Can't see baby closing in may!

[jabird]

Unfortunately ruining peoples holidays is not top priority for airlines sadly.

Just look at all the failed airlines from the past,allowing passengers to pay and turn up to fly]

Nigel, but this is a different situation. If a company goes belly up, no more money in bank, end of story, then you have to call in the CAA etc to sort out the mess.

BA might not want baby as part of its strategy, but they don't want bad press either - especially following summers of strikes, T5 fall out and the volcano.

I'm with HH - as summer should be profitable anyway, if the airline can't be taken on as a going concern, announce a date to wind it all up, and honour that date.

In the grand scheme of things, compared to the potential reputation damage, this cost, if it is cost at all, should be worth bearing.

Otherwise, can you imagine the headlines? 'Fly to swerve, fly to serve notice' - ok, they aren't very good, I'm sure others can do better! :ugh::ugh::ugh:

[Chidken Sangwich]

dj & jabird - I dont see IAG having any issues at all if Baby is to be closed from a PR perspective.

IAG have stated from the outset that Baby and Regional are NOT part of the deal so can quite honestly hold up their hands with a 'nothing to do with us guv' style press release.

I agree with HH, I don't see it closing before schedule change at the end of October.

[SR71]

Montezuma,

Stirring are you?

:E

People buy loss making businesses everyday of the year because of their potential under new management.

Strip away some of the ridiculous overheads, pay a sensible price for fuel and optimise the airframes to meet demand, and coupled with non-legacy T&C's, you'll make money. Other LOCO's are making huge amounts of it.

It is the relationship between Lufthansa, bmi and bmibaby that is responsible for the poor performance. Get rid of 2 of those elements of the equation and its a different ball game.

IAG have stated from the outset that Baby and Regional are NOT part of the deal so can quite honestly hold up their hands with a 'nothing to do with us guv' style press release.

Utter rubbish. They've negotiated a discount if the airline becomes their obligation. What they do with it subsequently is anyone's guess...especially when they see the unit cost of the employees compared to their own expensive workforce.

:E

[Chidken Sangwich]

Utter rubbish. They've negotiated a discount if the airline becomes their obligation. What they do with it subsequently is anyone's guess...especially when they see the unit cost of the employees compared to their own expensive workforce.

Ok so maybe my choice of the word 'deal' isnt quite correct.

"Lufthansa has an option to sell BMI Baby before the deal is closed.

But Mr Walsh said if this did not happen, then IAG were not interested in retaining BMI Baby or the BMI regional brand."

BBC News - New BMI owners say Belfast-Heathrow flights 'secure' (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-16299209)

[nitefiter]

If baby were to be closed ? what happens to the pilot work force? It says "bmi group" on my pay slip, so does that mean I'm as much a bmi pilot as someone at LHR on an airbus? does IAG have an obligation to us? the fact that I'm 737 rated as opposed to 319 seems to me to have no relevance. Would the regulator allow this buy out knowing that 200 odd pilots and many other crew would be "up the road". Anyone??

[bex88]

Looking at it anyone who is at bmi in any airline of the group is a employee of their particular airline. This is because they are separate companies eg bmi baby ltd, bmi ltd and bmi regional ltd. They are all owned by LHBD holdings ltd which is then owned by Deutsche Lufthansa AG. Working for say baby but saying you were part of bmi or bmi regional would be the same as trying to say we are all Lufthansa pilots which is clearly not the case. The 3 companies operate as separate entities so there is no link. With respect to the difference of being a baby pilot on a 737 as opposed to a mainline pilot at LHR on the airbus you are doing a different job under different T&C's for a different company but the same group. A bit like working for British gas or centrica. Now on to the more positive out look baby is currently negotiating a sale, there is going to be expansion over the next few years at BA as bmi slots are transferred to LH and i would think the most economical way to fulfil the requirement for extra pilots would be via any baby or regional pilots (if BA do take them)Regulators? I don't think they are looking out for jobs I am afraid.

Think positive and be in BALPA I would think is the best

[Groundloop]

If baby were to be closed ? what happens to the pilot work force? It says "bmi group" on my pay slip, so does that mean I'm as much a bmi pilot as someone at LHR on an airbus? does IAG have an obligation to us? the fact that I'm 737 rated as opposed to 319 seems to me to have no relevance. Would the regulator allow this buy out knowing that 200 odd pilots and many other crew would be "up the road". Anyone??

BA's past history with the purchase of Dan-Air does not inspire optimism, I'm afraid. At that time they only kept the current 737 rated pilots (they were looking for 737 pilots back then) and made all others redundant. The regulator would have no say in the matter whatever. It is not the CAA's job.

[FR-]

With regards to the Baby pilots, I heard that Ryanair have already told Baby management it will take them on. A good few joined the other year, really nice bunch of lads.

fr-

[nitefiter]

I didn't mean the CAA more the take overs and monopolies or whatever it is they call themselves this week!

[le grand fromage]

Nitefiter
The competition authorities (in this case the EC's merger task force) have no jurisdiction over employment issues and are simply there to assess what the effects of a take over are on competition and to order remedies if they deem it to be anti competitive. The employees are in the hands of the acquirer once the deal is done and you can bet that IAG will not have given LH any undertakings about redundancies as part of the deal.

[nitefiter]

Thanks ...its up the road then!!

[SR71]

"Lufthansa has an option to sell BMI Baby before the deal is closed.

But Mr Walsh said if this did not happen, then IAG were not interested in retaining BMI Baby or the BMI regional brand."

He was always going to say that though wasn't he....to maximise the price reduction from LH.

To then p**s that all away by shutting the operation down would be a bit perverse wouldn't it especially when this cost far exceeds the annual loss...

Anyway, at that point, presumably 250 baby & Regional pilots having nothing to lose by taking the matter to the courts on account of their status as bmi pilots who just happen to be flying under a different AOC?

[bex88]

Separate Ltd companies under different AOC's

Bmi baby ltd, british midland airways ltd and british midland regional ltd all trading as different companies but under the ownership of LHBD Holdings ltd. LHBD is in tern owned by Lufthansa AG. Pilots of the individual ltd companies have no greater ability to lay claim that they work for bmi (group) as they would Lufthansa. A bit like working for British gas or centrica.

Only advice really is regional sale still in final stages and work ongoing with negotiations with respect to baby. Mainline slots converting to LH will create expansion at BA or whatever guise bmi ends up in. Join BALPA if your not in already

[Buster the Bear]

Lufthansa if it becomes necessary will shut Baby down, not IAG.

[INKJET]

Any talk of baby's demise is somewhat premature to say the least a deal will be done within weeks:ok:

[Say again s l o w l y]

I do hope so.

[SR71]

Bmi baby ltd, british midland airways ltd and british midland regional ltd all trading as different companies but under the ownership of LHBD Holdings ltd. LHBD is in tern owned by Lufthansa AG. Pilots of the individual ltd companies have no greater ability to lay claim that they work for bmi (group) as they would Lufthansa. A bit like working for British gas or centrica.

Thats all fine and dandy, but if their contracts state they work for the parent company, I'd say things are a little trickier.

:E

[G-AWZK]

Any talk of baby's demise is somewhat premature to say the least a deal will be done within weeks

There is a long way to go and some fairly hefty hurdles to jump over before you can say that with any certainty.

The management buy out and Intro are the only realistic offers on the table, and even then there are no guarantees that either of those will find enough funding - even with a significant dowry from DLH.

[davidjohnson6]

Intro might get the money. Management buy outs are rather less likely to get the money compared to the go-go times of 2006

[bex88]

SR71 I can confirm from the contract I have seen it clearly lays out your position with respect to aircraft base, salary etc. It also states which LTD company you are contracted to. The company numbers and headed paper are different. There is no contract with LHBD only your airline be it baby, British midland airways, or regional.

[sjm]

So what happens if bmi are not integrated into BA and kept as a cheaper BA company out of heathrow?

My contract/ company agreement says in the event of redundancies if opportunities exist in other companies within the GROUP then the positions will be offered!

It would be hard to justify laying off 140 pilots, ? Cabin crew when Walsh has publicly stated that bmi will be used to expand out of heathrow.

One thing for sure is the longer this is dragged out the more consumer confidence will fall in baby.

[The Eternal JP]

Can't believe the negativity on here!! The Summer is going well with expansion, and the takeover is continuing on the quiet at the request of some of the bidders. It seems that some people just look at things pint half empty all the time.

All good things......!!

[INKJET]

Of course nothing is 100% in this world ! Suffice to say that my track record on events to date is somewhat closer to the mark than your rather negative view!

Things have taken a little longer than planned for a number of reasons non of which are negative, things like this always seem to take longer than what we would all like, however there are more interested parties now than before Xmas.

Let me put another way I'm 100% certain that baby will operate its on sale Summer program & 99% certain that a binding contract will be signed before IAG deadline, I'm 0% certain who will end up with owner ship, but it won't be a management buyout.

The Summer program is selling well ahead of last Summer.:ok:

[mart901]

Any word on how the BHD sunshine routes are selling?

[20feetretard]

G-AWZK

Sometimes no new is good news. just because YOU don't know what is going on doesn't mean that nothing is happening. The interested parties involved are progressing...but their names are not in the public domain. The number of people who know who they are is limited to less than 5. Very senior people at WW don't know who they are. There are clues around but they are mixed with a lot of speculation and wild guesses. No, I don't know who they are either but I do have an idea about the picture in the future which is encouraging but does require eye watering levels of investment.

[handsfree]

Let me put another way I'm 100% certain that baby will operate its on sale Summer program

I hope you're right as I've just booked a flight to Nice in June.

[INKJET]

Give it a break fella!!

I'm interested in anyone contribution based on some sort of reasoned thought process, however a trawl through your posting re baby are overwhelming negative and such a review shows that you are not nearly close to the facts, i neither know or care whether you have worked for bmi or baby or do now, but if you did work for the group you would be aware of the internal comms, which to date have been honest and accurate.

Most in the airline (baby) want it to work and like i believe that it can, given the correct investment and direction, the management team at baby now in place is in another world compared with what has gone before.

In a month or so either i will look a mug and you will look a smart arse or I will prove to be accurate and you can move on with your life. So if you have something to contribute, please do, if its just baseless anti baby bile, then give it a break (polite version):ugh:

[EI-BUD]

I find the drivel on consistent bmibaby threads, stating things like, 'I know what is happening, but I cant say', 'it's going to be in a 2 weeks', 'all will be revealed' blah blah to be total ridiculous. The most senior of the management know what is going on and LH etc. And the same senior managers wouldn't be on here saying those sort of comments.

We will all hear when we hear what is happening. Furthermore, it is common knowledge that the company is being sold and if any individual keeps saying 'its in 2 weeks' or 'all will be revealed, you'll see', these said individuals will eventually be right.

Warmest of thoughts to anyone who is working in bmibaby, I do hope that the outcome results in stability in your careers with company, irrespective of what guise it survives in.

EI-BUD

[nigel osborne]

EI-BUD

Your comments are harsh this is a discussion forum, "rumour network" as its title states I believe, and people are just putting there point of views across.

If people did what you suggest and just leave the management to announce ..there would be absolutely no point in this discussion forum whatsoever, and instead just need to read a business newspaper for official press releases !

Nigel

[EI-BUD]

nigel o,
you make a fair and reasonable point, you are absolutely right. Of course we cant rely on management to post the info here, but there are the same posters coming on saying they are in the know, and this in my view has been the same few for ages, the same one in my view, have no information at all, yet suggest they do.

there is a difference between 'point of view' and 'this is what is going to happen'.

I dont meant to be harsh, I genuinely do enjoy the contribution of the posters on this forum, so if I have offended anybody.. apologies...

ei-bud

[nitefiter]

One thing is for sure from my point of view ,if i see the words "management" and "buy out"on the same press release then me and a lot more like me won't be flying here.I hope that it doesn't come to that and that we have enough pilots come the summer.
I would agree though that we do have the best we have ever had in charge at the moment, just that times have moved on and its hard times in aviation and i don't see the level of investment needed being that easy to come by.

[nigel osborne]

EI-BUD

think we are all bit frustrated this is taking so long. As you correctly pointed out we have to feel for BMI Baby employees, must be an agonising wait.

Lets hope for them,passengers and BHX that when it is announced it will be a decent company.

Nigel

[Flying Wild]

Date: 1 February 2012

bmi signs term sheet for the sale of bmibaby

bmi has confirmed that it has signed a term sheet for the sale of bmibaby to a UK based company. The intended sale comprises 100 per cent of the shares of bmibaby, all assets and liabilities used in the bmibaby business including the aircraft fleet, the existing route network and the continued employment of the existing staff. The term sheet is non-exclusive and enables bmi to continue discussions with other interested parties.

It is envisaged that the legally binding transaction documents will be signed in the first quarter of 2012 and the completion of the transaction would occur shortly after this, subject to regulatory approval.

The new potential owner would continue to use the existing brand name for an interim period. The currently published summer 2012 schedule would continue as planned and customers can continue to book flights via bmibaby.com and via the bmibaby call centre.

bmibaby’s head office would remain in the Midlands and the airline would operate from its three existing bases in the UK: East Midlands, Birmingham and Belfast City. The potential new owner plans to further develop the low fare network in the UK and Europe.

bmi and the buyer have agreed not to disclose any financial aspects of the planned transaction.

bmi is pleased with the opportunity that this transaction gives to the bmibaby business enabling it to be an independent airline with great future prospects. Following the proposed sale, bmibaby’s loyal customers will continue to benefit from the airline's great low fares, wide choice of destinations and high level of service.

Ends.

So, potentially good news then...

[LGS6753]

Not heard the expression 'term sheet' before. Presumably they mean 'Heads of Agreement'. But those normally confirm exclusivity for a period. It's odd that there is no exclusivity - I would take that to mean that either the purchaser is wary, or the vendor has another potential purchaser in the wings.

In any case, the fat lady is far from singing yet....

[hec7or]

A term sheet is financial language for a Letter of Intent where the terms of a future agreement are laid out for both parties accord, but is normally non binding.

[JSCL]

A term sheet is a good thing to use in publications to try and persuade the public to continue booking because it isn't a guarantee, nor is it something the public understands entirely.

Good to see it being a UK Company that's interested though!

[Flypuppy]

Jet2 would be a logical buyer.

Not too sure if logic plays much of a role in this though. Partly I wonder if this is just a way of trying to convince the travelling public that Baby is still financially safe to fly with. It wouldn't surprise me if bookings have gone off a cliff recently.

[Flying Wild]

Is the travelling public really that aware of what is happening with baby? I've not really seen much in the news - it all tends to refer to BMI.
How likely is Joe Bloggs, booking his bucket and spade trip like he does every year, going to research the company he is booking with to see if it has a stable future?

[JSCL]

The Joe Bloggs traveling public read BMI and assume any brand with the letters BMI in it.

[Flying Wild]

I'd heard that Joe Bloggs had once thought that bmibaby was a play on Be My Baby, or something along those lines...

[bluepilot]

this is the probable buyer

Lufthansa in Talks to Sell Bmibaby Unit to Intro of Germany - Bloomberg (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-01-20/lufthansa-may-sell-bmibaby-to-intro-of-germany.html)

[Flypuppy]

However, Intro is not a UK based company....

[RoyHudd]

Is that of any significance in these black Franco-Germanic European days?

[SWBKCB]

Only that the Press Releas specifically states the sale of bmibaby to a UK based company. which would seem to exclude a German based one?

[crewmeal]

Ask the cleaners they're a good source of usually correct information.

[Curious Pax]

From the Bloomberg article: "Intro Aviation would draw on its experience in turning around former British Airways unit Deutsche BA and Germany’s LTU, he said." - so a merger with Air Berlin somewhere down the line then. Let's hope AB recovers from its current position!

[JSCL]

Ask the cleaners they're a good source of usually correct information.

Lol!

http://uploadir.com/u/5d959q

[Jonnyf]

According to the financial times the party from the UK interested in buying BmiBaby is jet2

[Skipness One Echo]

Jet2 is the obvious choice but Hell will be hosting the Winter Olympics before the main base is kept at EMA.
Hence bmibaby’s head office would remain in the Midlands is only going to be true while The new potential owner would continue to use the existing brand name for an interim period

[taxi_driver]

Jet2 and bmibaby would fit like a glove, same aircraft types, similar routes, bases, engineering, crew training etc.

Of course they would use the the bmibaby brand for an interim period. The length of the interim period being how long it takes to repaint or return the aircraft to the leasing companies.

Of course they would maintain the bmibaby Hq at East Midlands. As long as bmibaby existed as a company to need a head quarters that is.

The talks will revolve around how much Lufthansa will pay for Jet2 to take the problem off their hands?

[runway30]

It just proves that the quoted 'analysts' know absolutely nothing!

[mart901]

In fairness if an aviation/business analylist was asked who might be interested then it would be likely for them to come up with jet2. It doesn't mean they are!

The brand name will have to change regardless of the buyer and it is quite normal to be allowed to trade on in the current guise for an agreed maximum period when one company buys a chunk of another. If its something along the lines of venture capital or a buyer from outside the UK then its head office will remain in the midlands, even if its jet2 they could claim it will remain in the midlands - remain can cover a multitude of timescales!

[Monty Gordo]

There remains intense speculation about the future of Baby and maybe (baby!!!) only the full and final press release on sale will answer all the questions.

But in terms of speculation there could be considerable overlapping at EMA with both Baby and Jet2 currently operate from.

However what could be interesting is Jet2 taking over Baby's presence at BHX, currently an airport it does not serve but which still does have an impressive Baby facility (check-in etc) in Terminal 1.

[Artie Fufkin]

Why would Jet2 buy baby? It makes no sense.

They already have their own presence in Belfast and East Midlands, which they could expand after baby is wound up by IAG. Opening a new base at Birmingham isn't beyond their ability.

If they buy baby they buy a totally worthless balance sheet. The only asset on it of any value is baby's brand, which would have to go. What exactly would they be buying that they couldn't just take for free after baby goes under?

(apologies for slightly insensitive post, but this is only what Jet2 management will surely be thinking).

[rudolf]

Lufthansa lose money if Baby is lumped in with Mainline. What if Baby comes with a chunk of cash? Just my tuppence worth!

[nigel osborne]

Artie,

If Jet 2 are involved then surely the management must already be part of this, so don't understand your last bit can you clarify ?

[taxi_driver]

I dont think anyone can see Jet2 buying baby. If LH leave it for BA to deal with then the price they get for BMi goes down. If LH have to shut it down themselves then it will cost them.

If Jet2/whoever were given it for free, or paid a portion of advance ticket sale money to take on its liabilities, then it would make alot of sense.

Quote from the FT this morning:

"Lufthansa is likely to pay any counterparty to take on BMIbaby, which contributed to a €154m operating loss at BMI in the nine months to September 30."

[INKJET]

Jet2 are a red herring ( well red and grey) it's still early days.

[toledoashley]

My feeling is that the 'UK Company' may not be an airline, but could be associated to an airline.

[LVL_CHG]

I see BMIBaby has been sold to a "mystery" UK based buyer. This comes after a week of people thinking it was going to be a German based company

They have said they plan to expand their UK and European flights.

[rudolf]

Eddie Stobbart?

[Flying Wild]

Where does it say baby has been sold? There is an interested UK party, but nobody has committed to buy yet (that we know of).

[STN Ramp Rat]

http://www.breakingtravelnews.com/news/article/lufthansa-reaches-bmibaby-deal-ahead-of-british-airways-sale/

[Flying Wild]

Interesting, but only one site reporting? Could well be that some enterprising journo has leapt to conclusions in the wake of the press release sent out yesterday: http://www.pprune.org/airlines-airports-routes/330435-bmibaby-74.html#post6993639. Notice that several phrases in the website article are exactly the same as in the press release.

Nothing from DLH/BMI directly that I've seen on the subject of a confirmed sale.

[Charley B]

Stelios????

[JSCL]

Charley,

They said UK. Not fat idiotic Greek.